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Has Eli regressed?

Tim in VA : 3/13/2018 1:47 pm
It seems to be bandied about as common knowledge that Eli is done, or clearly on the downturn. Personally I disagree. I didn't see a significant drop off in arm strength, decision making, or accuracy. What I did see was poor coaching in every phase, poor game planning and management, poor run and pass blocking on the offensive line, poor ground game, and a lack of receiving talent to a level I have never seen on a Giants team ever! Literally every part of our team failed us miserably, yet many people here seem convinced we can't win with Eli.

I expect many here will say "well I watched him play" as the reason for this conclusion that he's done. To them I ask did you really watch the games and not notice the things outlined above? I don't think I'm making excuses for Eli, rather I think many are making excuses against him.

I do realize he is 37, so there is that factor, but I really don't see the writing on the wall that he has started to decline. I don't see why he can't lead the Giants for the next 2-3 years.

The biggest question I have is how we are going to clean up the rest of the team. The coaching changes seem positive, but we have a long way to go in every other position to contend. Extra picks in this draft would be helpful too. But I'm 100% positive that picking a QB to hold a clipboard with our most impactful draft pick will result in us picking top 5 again in next year's draft.
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Of course Eli has regressed..  
bw in dc : 3/15/2018 12:09 pm : link
And it's mostly, if not entirely, physical. Just watch his arm strength, especially on the move. The zip has declined. And Eli has never had what one would hail as a quick release.

The biggest asset Favre, Elway, Moon, etc have had going into their golden years of QBing is there incredible arm talent. Since Eli doesn't have that, the decline is underway...
RE: Of course Eli has regressed..  
djm : 3/15/2018 12:55 pm : link
In comment 13867384 bw in dc said:
Quote:
And it's mostly, if not entirely, physical. Just watch his arm strength, especially on the move. The zip has declined. And Eli has never had what one would hail as a quick release.

The biggest asset Favre, Elway, Moon, etc have had going into their golden years of QBing is there incredible arm talent. Since Eli doesn't have that, the decline is underway...


Respectfully disagree. I think Eliís arm is the same. The offense isnít. Give Eli a relatively clean pocket and WRs worth half a shit and he will throw the same elite Nfl out he threw in 2010.
Eli's...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/15/2018 1:03 pm : link
arm strength has visibly declined?

The only real area where I can say there is a decline noticed is in his ability to stand in the pocket, and I think some of that came from coaching. It looks like he was told to get rid of the ball to avoid sacks instead of staying in and taking hits or forcing the throws for INT's.

And actually I think there have been quite a few guys chime in (like Gilbride) who say the arm looks the same.
dep, fair point, especially with Eli.  
Keith : 3/15/2018 1:09 pm : link
The guy steps it up so if we have a shot at the playoffs, he stays in. As soon as we are eliminated, he's out.
RE: Eli's...  
Britt in VA : 3/15/2018 1:10 pm : link
In comment 13867561 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
arm strength has visibly declined?

The only real area where I can say there is a decline noticed is in his ability to stand in the pocket, and I think some of that came from coaching. It looks like he was told to get rid of the ball to avoid sacks instead of staying in and taking hits or forcing the throws for INT's.

And actually I think there have been quite a few guys chime in (like Gilbride) who say the arm looks the same.


Gilbride, Greg Cosell, Gettleman, Shurmer, Pat Kirwan, etc...
But what do those guys know?  
Britt in VA : 3/15/2018 1:10 pm : link
.
But bbi  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 1:33 pm : link
Has master QB evaluator...Jimmy Googs!
Add Papa and  
Tim in VA : 3/15/2018 2:06 pm : link
Diehl
Assume that's sarcasm which is fine. But I'm very comfortable  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 2:09 pm : link
in making my own opinions/evals on players, and clearly okay in stating them without prejudice or some half-assed disclaimer as many do on BBI so they can protect against ever being wrong. Crick you may be one of those guys, especially if this is how you want to post.

And on Eli, my evaluation has been fairly consistent over the past several years as to the decline in his play/skills. The main difference now only being how it is really accelerating.

I never said you had to rely on my view. But don't crap on it, especially since this team isn't exactly kicking ass and taking names since 2011 with our guy under center...
FMIC, I agree.  
Keith : 3/15/2018 2:21 pm : link
I don't see that much of a physical decline as far as the ability to throw the ball, but there is def a decline in his pocket presence, ability to move inside the pocket or outside the pocket. He started his career with happy feet and its back. His decision making has also been questionable as well.

Eli is a funny one, he's very smart and his ability to read defenses and know where he's throwing the ball is amazing, but he's not very cerebral as the play is going on. If he misreads or his options aren't there, he makes very bad decisions, sometimes mind boggling.
Yes.  
T-Bone : 3/15/2018 2:38 pm : link
Next question.
RE: Eli's...  
Thegratefulhead : 3/15/2018 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13867561 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
arm strength has visibly declined?

The only real area where I can say there is a decline noticed is in his ability to stand in the pocket, and I think some of that came from coaching. It looks like he was told to get rid of the ball to avoid sacks instead of staying in and taking hits or forcing the throws for INT's.

And actually I think there have been quite a few guys chime in (like Gilbride) who say the arm looks the same.
Arm strength is the last thing to go. I still have a cannon and I will be 50. His arm might be better. A couple of off seasons ago, he worked on improving it. People see him throw off his back foot when he should eat it or it throw it away and they mistake that for lack of arm strength he he throws one of his ducks.
Just like Eli was in decline in 2013  
djm : 3/15/2018 4:54 pm : link
Until he wasnít.

This team was dreadfully coached under Mcadoo. The offense and atmosphere and aura was so bad it literally reduced eli to tears. It literally made him look terrible. There were games we struggled to get the ball to Odell Beckham. You hear that? Odell fucking Beckham and eli fucking Manning went through entire halfs of games where they failed to get in sync and it wasnít because of the ol. It was the entire offensive philosophy and scheme. They rarely had a plan that worked early and they never ever ever adjusted to what defenses were doing to them, and what those defenses did was grotesque.

Forget 2016-2017. Place it in a hard to reach vault in your brain along with 91-92 and move on.
The 1995 giants led by Dave Brown  
djm : 3/15/2018 5:02 pm : link
And a collection of skill players and olinemen that inspire no one SCORED MORE than 50 points in that season than the 2017 giants did.

1995!!!

Is Eli Manning as bad as Dave brown? He must be right?

Mcadoo wrecked this team. Fucking wrecked it. Thank god he was bad enough to warrant a quick hook. I only wish the team sucked this bad in 2016 to hasten his departure but we will have to settle for two years of hell.
And if anything  
djm : 3/15/2018 5:04 pm : link
2016 should inspire confidence in us all. The fact that this team was able
To win 11 games with that wack job mess calling the shots is nothing short of incredible. Handley only won 8 games and 6 games respectively. Then reeves came in and restored some order. Shurmur will too.
Can you ever get one thought  
Keith : 3/15/2018 5:42 pm : link
into one post, lol?
RE: Can you ever get one thought  
djm : 3/15/2018 6:29 pm : link
In comment 13868133 Keith said:
Quote:
into one post, lol?


My friends and family yell at me for the same shit with texting. So I guess itís me? Ill tell them Keith (kmed) said the same thing further validating the complaints.

Iíll try harder. Ps had knee surgery last night just a partial meniscus removal... Iíd use the dopey effects of the pain killers as an excuse but Iím always dopey.
Googs  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 7:31 pm : link
You often present your opinion as undisputed. You said "anyone who would want Eli as their starting qb would have to be brain dead. That comes off as dumping on any opinion in favor of having as their about (you just complained about me dumping on your opinion). It also comes off as undisputed or obvious. You showed arrogance when it was being shown to you that actual football people felt the opposite of how you felt about Manning, claiming, that you didn't need gilbrides information, you quickly closed your ears to what he had to say as if it wouldn't be in any new or even correct information.

You want to dump on Manning? No big deal, but maybe once in a while think about the possibility (good possibility in my opinion) that you are wrong, and maybe lower your own opinion a couple of notches if you think your opinion should hold as much weight as people who have lived and breathed football for decades.

As for me being wrong, I'm wrong a lot, no big deal, I'm learning that an open mind is a valuable part of growing.
Fair enough on a couple of comments  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 7:47 pm : link
but not all. Just because I post with conviction doesnít mean it is indisputable. I will stipulate to some arrogance but within the bounds of reason.

Bring your debate if you disagree as to a football opinion as I am happy to go head to head on topics. But bring more than a post made tongue in cheek like the braindead one as it wasnít calling anybody specific out like u did.

Besides I usually post those types after a few martinis so cut me some slack...
RE: Fair enough on a couple of comments  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 7:52 pm : link
In comment 13868295 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Besides I usually post those types after a few martinis so cut me some slack...


Fair enough
It would be nice if we could at least agree  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/15/2018 7:52 pm : link
that saying Eli has regressed isn't disrespectful or insulting. It happens to every athlete ever. People tend to bristle when it's offered as an opinion as if Eli was so talented that he could defeat Time.
Its fairly obvious we can't  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 7:56 pm : link
TTH...
It can  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 7:57 pm : link
Just be a lazy thing to say as for the response for his struggles, and it could be true, but in the shit storm of a situation this offense was in as a whole b it's hard to evaluate anything, that is a time when the experts can really help us fans figuring out what we are seeing. Of course they aren't always right, but it's typically a good solid foundation to stand on
Itís definitely not an insult  
djm : 3/15/2018 7:57 pm : link
Or disrespectful or stupid to say Eli has regressed.

I have been a dick lately. No excuse this is just a passionate topic and this period or moment in nyg history is so important... we all want the best. I have to remember that. If I have come off as assholish i apologize to everyone.
On paper Eli has regressed (2017)  
djm : 3/15/2018 7:58 pm : link
But I think he can return to form and be the qb we all expect him to be in 2018.
Here's my position...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/15/2018 8:02 pm : link
In answer to the question - yes, Eli's play has definitely regressed. He checks down way too often and is far less likely to stand tall and aim downfield.

Now, why is he doing that? Clearly having a poor OL is one reason. But I think it's also the system - he's been trained to make quick reads and quick decisions, and I think he's been coached to NOT take chances downfield but to take the easier underneath stuff. He's protecting the Duke, which means his overall turnover numbers may be down but so are his big plays.

I personally think he still has enough in every way (physically, mentally, competitive drive) to perform well in this league. I'm not sure he's a perfect fit for the offense Shurmur will want to run, but then again Shurmur has lots of experience in different offenses, so if he's smart he'll build something Eli can be successful in.

With regards to whether the Giants HAVE to take another QB right now - I disagree. They will only take one if they are completely in love with one. I doubt they are. I think they'll go with Barkley, who should definitely be there for them. Personally I hope they do because I think he's a generational player and would really open things up offensively for this team right away, way more than any of the QB's or other picks could.
Good post  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 8:03 pm : link
Dan
RE: Good post  
Dan in the Springs : 3/15/2018 8:31 pm : link
In comment 13868313 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Dan


Thanks - just my opinion but I think that Eli is NOT the best QB for the type of offense that McAdoo was trying to install. Meaning, the ideal QB for that type of offense is one who has nearly perfect touch and accuracy on the short passes. The offense was designed to maximize YAC with all of the slants/crossing routes, and teams learned to sit back and allow the underneath passes. Eli's never had the best touch passes in the short game and when receivers have to wait, turn, stretch or come back to a pass it kills YAC and allows NFL defenders to quickly approach and tackle.

If Shurmur is smart and wants to play Eli he will NOT design such an offense IMO.
So what is the right Offense for Eli to play in  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 8:37 pm : link
going forward?
Nobody?  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 8:54 pm : link
WWGS...

What Would Gilbride Say?
Martinis  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 9:13 pm : link
?
RE: RE: Of course Eli has regressed..  
bw in dc : 3/15/2018 9:16 pm : link
In comment 13867543 djm said:
Quote:
In comment
Respectfully disagree. I think Eliís arm is the same. The offense isnít. Give Eli a relatively clean pocket and WRs worth half a shit and he will throw the same elite Nfl out he threw in 2010.


The passes between the hashes when he has time looks - I guess - the same. The passes outside the hashes look much different to me - the ball seems to float a lot more. And even more so when he's on the move...

Again, this is what's supposed to happen when you're 38. It's a natural progression. But if you really think he throws just as well as when he was 24 than I guess we watch a different game...
RE: Martinis  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 9:21 pm : link
In comment 13868416 crick n NC said:
Quote:
?


Not yet.

Looking forward to some responses though. Do u want to take a crack Crick?
I'm six beers in  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 9:23 pm : link
Hell ya!
Ok nevertheless  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 9:40 pm : link
I am sure it will decent view anyway. Go ahead...
.  
crick n NC : 3/15/2018 10:05 pm : link
RE: RE: RE: Of course Eli has regressed..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/15/2018 10:32 pm : link
In comment 13868421 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13867543 djm said:


Quote:


In comment
Respectfully disagree. I think Eliís arm is the same. The offense isnít. Give Eli a relatively clean pocket and WRs worth half a shit and he will throw the same elite Nfl out he threw in 2010.



The passes between the hashes when he has time looks - I guess - the same. The passes outside the hashes look much different to me - the ball seems to float a lot more. And even more so when he's on the move...

Again, this is what's supposed to happen when you're 38. It's a natural progression. But if you really think he throws just as well as when he was 24 than I guess we watch a different game...

For the uninformed, at Jints Central, 37 year old players are 38.

Just wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page.
RE: So what is the right Offense for Eli to play in  
Section331 : 3/15/2018 10:49 pm : link
In comment 13868362 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
going forward?


Eli showed he can play in a ACO hybrid, like the one they ran with McAdoo as OC. It is pretty clear now that TC had a LT more influence on that offense than many of us realized.

Eli can play with a spread short passing scheme, just give him a decent OL and running game, take a few shots downfield. Shurmerís scheme in Minny is VERY similar.
WCO hybrid, not ACO.  
Section331 : 3/15/2018 10:50 pm : link
West coast to Atlantic coast?
Technically he will be 37 and approx 8 months old  
Jimmy Googs : 3/15/2018 11:12 pm : link
if and when he takes another snap that counts for us.

So lets round up to 38...
djm,  
Keith : 3/15/2018 11:15 pm : link
painkillers for a minor knee procedure. Rub some dirt on it and keep it moving!

Seriously though, get better soon, itís actually an easy recovery.
RE: djm,  
djm : 3/15/2018 11:38 pm : link
In comment 13868567 Keith said:
Quote:
painkillers for a minor knee procedure. Rub some dirt on it and keep it moving!

Seriously though, get better soon, itís actually an easy recovery.


I was surprised they gave me painkillers honestly. I donít need them anymore. Really not bad at all 24 hours later.

Nice parting gift tho...
RE: Technically he will be 37 and approx 8 months old  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/16/2018 7:54 am : link
In comment 13868566 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
if and when he takes another snap that counts for us.

So lets round up to 38...

I've been firmly in the camp of Eli being in decline, but I also don't think anyone needs to fudge the numbers to show it. bw was talking about observations/examples that have already happened, so rounding up for the next time Eli takes a snap doesn't really apply here.
Its not fudging the numbers at all to make him appear old  
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2018 8:18 am : link
if anything, more seasoned so lighten up...
RE: So what is the right Offense for Eli to play in  
Dan in the Springs : 3/16/2018 9:29 am : link
In comment 13868362 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
going forward?


IMO, and admittedly I'm no expert, but Eli would do best in a much more balanced offense. He would do well with a power run game that would set up play-action where he can be very good. The passing game would focus less on YAC and more on air yards, primarily through vertical routes by receivers (TE included).

As I watched McAdoo's offense closely over the past couple of years what stood out to me was the incredible number of routes run for very short yards. It seems every play had a minimum of two receivers running routes of less than 10 yards. These horizontal routes were open much more often and quickly and as time passed Eli went to them much more often but consistently for fewer and fewer yards. Compressing the offensive attack didn't work, so I think the opposite would be best for Eli.
Thanks Dan. Eli 's inaccuracies and lack of mobility  
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2018 7:17 pm : link
offset against his experience and strong ability to read defenses make it interesting to wonder what Offense would be best for him.

Wonder why the Eli Fan Club can't weigh in, all though I can speculate...
Hmm  
Tim in VA : 3/16/2018 7:23 pm : link
It's almost like there is no offense that will work for the 2 time Superbowl MVP Eli Manning
The best offense for Eli would be one that gave him more than  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/16/2018 8:10 pm : link
two seconds to throw the ball.
No, that's not the point. You can't just say one with a better O-line  
Jimmy Googs : 3/16/2018 8:50 pm : link
running backs and WRs (other than OBJ). If that were the case, everybody would say we need a better QB to keep up.

What's the Offense for the attributes Eli has today?
Manning is a down  
crick n NC : 3/16/2018 8:57 pm : link
The field passer. However, he's a good passer, and cerebral, so I think he can play in any offense that doesn't require mobility. Mac's offense seemed to be crap, but even then I have to at least understand that the OL would or I think should make it difficult for any offense to run.
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