It seems to be bandied about as common knowledge that Eli is done, or clearly on the downturn. Personally I disagree. I didn't see a significant drop off in arm strength, decision making, or accuracy. What I did see was poor coaching in every phase, poor game planning and management, poor run and pass blocking on the offensive line, poor ground game, and a lack of receiving talent to a level I have never seen on a Giants team ever! Literally every part of our team failed us miserably, yet many people here seem convinced we can't win with Eli.
I expect many here will say "well I watched him play" as the reason for this conclusion that he's done. To them I ask did you really watch the games and not notice the things outlined above? I don't think I'm making excuses for Eli, rather I think many are making excuses against him.
I do realize he is 37, so there is that factor, but I really don't see the writing on the wall that he has started to decline. I don't see why he can't lead the Giants for the next 2-3 years.
The biggest question I have is how we are going to clean up the rest of the team. The coaching changes seem positive, but we have a long way to go in every other position to contend. Extra picks in this draft would be helpful too. But I'm 100% positive that picking a QB to hold a clipboard with our most impactful draft pick will result in us picking top 5 again in next year's draft.
It would be strange if he hadn't.
I think when it comes to Eli, most people are simply seeing what they want to see one way or the other.
Yes he's regressed. I think he can still win on a good team. I don't think this is a good team.
And his ball security when getting touched by defenders was totally non existent. He’s about as close to done as one can be.
But Eli has regressed. If you choose to not accept it, that’s up to you. I know for many on here, I’ll have to use the disclaimer that he is my favorite Giant of all time so it doesn’t look like I’m an anti Eli guy.
We have a rare opportunity to draft a premier QB (if we believe one is premier) at the top of the draft at a time where our 37 year old QB is in decline. And make no mistake, Eli is in decline and will continue to decline at his age. Add in the fact this roster is nowhere ready to win.
I have no idea how you can watch this player and claim there's been no regression at all.
The argument should be how much he's regressed - not whether he has or hasn't.
It's clear he's regressed. This is not the same player we saw several years ago no matter how much we want him to be.
I don't understand your argument. The 2014 and 2015 New York Giants were not good teams. But Eli played better in those years. He was worse in 2016 when they made the playoffs. He was worse last year. Statistically this is fact. But just look at his play on the field.
If you ask me, I'm not sure where he is psychologically right now. He looks skittish to me. The years of playing behind shoddy OL's may have caught up to him.
InsideThePylon: Pat Shurmur and the Giants
Given the absolute shit show last year was in all aspects, I don't want to overweigh his performance. I also think Shurmur's system will give him a better chance to succeed than he's had in a while. But it's not a reach to assume he's at the point where the negatives will outweigh the positives moving forward, and I fully understand why a lot of people think it would be better for the franchise to move on.
Eli was never a great mover but he was nimble. He's really lost that.
And you can really see the deterioration in arm strength when he's throwing on the move. It jumps off the screen to me.
He's always had a bad habit of making poor decisions under duress. But sometimes he could throw out of it because of his arm. That option is long gone...
Someone threw a subjective analysis together - here at BBI - over the weekend trying to figure out why certain big name guys were success late in age. The reason that was overlooked was simple - arm strength. Despite the age creep, these guys could still make ALL of the throws. I firmly believe Eli is not blesses with that skill and that's a big reason why he will continue to slide...
+1 Agreed.. The team needs too much. Can't hold on to the past any longer.
I am not even going on 2017 since his team may have been the worst in the league.
This could be his last year as a QB, lets hope he makes it a good one. Lets hope for good health for everyone.
Is this a serious statement? I have seen it said a lot around BBI - and thought it was a joke.
CC: GiantFilthy
Eli cannot throw a simple screen and his deep throws are gone. What ELi has left is his brain but that can only get you as far when you hear ghosts around you. Many times in the last 2 years Eli has fell without being touched at the fear of getting hit. Once that is in your head you are cooked. I thank Eli for 2 SB wins and how he handled himself as a Giant but I would have traded or released him. I think this team needed to start from scratch when they cleaned house last year.
We are trying to spoon feed an again, ghost hearer, declining qb on a new regime. I am sure that DG and PS are saying the right things to not disrespect Eli but they know they need a new qb that they DRAFTED and can hitch their tenures to. Webb is not their pick and the guys this year are to me superior to Webb. Eli should be traded if he allows it and we should rebuild with a new QB....Those are just facts. No need to make more excuses for Eli and think we are close when this team has been brutal for 6 years and the one year they made the playoffs it was all on the defense not anything Eli did
It is disgraceful, but that is no reason to cling on to the past. We are where we are now. He has definitely declined. His intermediate/deep ball accuracy, always one of his biggest strengths in his prime is just not there anymore.
Eric is right, in 2014 Eli and Odell in the final 8 games were lighting up the NFL, and they carried it into 2015. If you want to blame McAdoo's offense go ahead, I am sure it played a factor. But he did not look remotely to me like the same QB he was even in 2014 and 2015.
Quote:
is about to throw another must defend eli fit.
CC: GiantFilthy
“What I know is this guy’s going to be prepared. He’ll always be as selfless, as hard working, as professional as you could ask anybody to be. When I do watch him on film I see a guy who’s arm strength is still the same.
“As I’ve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. He’s not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if you’re asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet you’ve got the wrong guy. That’s not who he is.”
Greg Cosell:
Pat Shurmur:
Dave Gettleman:
According to Calvin Watkins on Twitter, Gettleman said the Giants have talent and “we will build it one brick at a time." Gettleman also said Manning will return and the Philly game was not a “mirage.” Gettleman made these comments at the Senior Bowl in Mobile as the Giants begin their process of scouting the draft prospects in the 2017 class.
There are more....
As long as their is a QB available that has franchise talent, I hope they draft it and Eli can play a few years as a potential playoff team game manager and then the next era starts.
That is ideal.
Eli will be the starter next year, and will be until he decides to retire.
Because he is GOOD. Very good. Check the analysis of a franchise QB thread. Football is a team game, and Eli can uphold his position well enough to win.
I totally agree with you, Eric. We need to take off the blue blinders and start planning for the future viability of this franchise. Like I said in another thread, Eli has done for years. Enough respect for him but we need to move on.
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Gilbride said flatly that “I do not see a significant dropoff” in Manning’s play.
“What I know is this guy’s going to be prepared. He’ll always be as selfless, as hard working, as professional as you could ask anybody to be. When I do watch him on film I see a guy who’s arm strength is still the same.
“As I’ve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. He’s not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if you’re asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet you’ve got the wrong guy. That’s not who he is.”
Greg Cosell:
Quote:
Cosell on Eli the player: “It’s a bad offense, and has been for a while, and there’s many factors that go into that, and the QB bears the brunt of it. That’s just the reality of life in the NFL. I would say that it’s a team with a poor OL. It’s a team that can’t run the football, and Eli is a ‘dependent’ QB – Eli is dependent on the rest of the team to be successful. So right now, the ‘dependent’ parts are totally lacking, and he can’t be successful on any kind of consistent basis. It’s not a function of if he’s lost his ability to throw a football, he’s not lost his ability to understand the game and control a game at the line of scrimmage. He’s not lost his ability, but his style of QB’ing...he’s a ‘dependent’ player. There’s nothing for him to depend on right now within an offense that’s bad in every single area.”
Pat Shurmur:
Quote:
“I watched Eli throw a little bit this summer, and I walked away saying, ‘He looked really, really good,’ ’’ Shurmur said. “He looked fit. He was throwing the ball well. The ball had good velocity coming off his hand. And again, I think he’s got years left. How much, I don’t know. But I think he has time left, and I look forward to working with him.’’
Dave Gettleman:
Quote:
"I had an opportunity to watch [Manning's film] because the quarterback is the most important position on the team," Gettleman told reporters, per the team's website. "At the end of the day, it wasn't a mirage. It was not a mirage."
Quote:
General manager Dave Gettleman finally had a chance to watch all of Manning's game tape from 2017, and not just the impressive performance against the Eagles late in the season, and he came away impressed with what he saw. Gettleman didn't outright say it, but it's clear he blames the old offensive scheme, play calling, poor pass protection on the offensive line, injuries at wide receiver, and the lack of a running game for Manning's struggles.
According to Calvin Watkins on Twitter, Gettleman said the Giants have talent and “we will build it one brick at a time." Gettleman also said Manning will return and the Philly game was not a “mirage.” Gettleman made these comments at the Senior Bowl in Mobile as the Giants begin their process of scouting the draft prospects in the 2017 class.
There are more....
So you expect PS and DG to say he is cooked?
FWIW.
Eli will be the starter next year, and will be until he decides to retire.
Because he is GOOD. Very good. Check the analysis of a franchise QB thread. Football is a team game, and Eli can uphold his position well enough to win.
Name me the last VERY GOOD QB to lead his team to 14.5 pts per game for 16 games and miss playoffs in 5of6 seasons and the one playoff season he did nothing to contribute
I guess I should go with your observation instead?
Since being drafted, you need to put good players around Eli or he's going to look average IMO.
I still believe if he has good players around him, he'll do very well.
Problem is, the Giants and he are running out of time.
With that, I think he's the perfect bridge to mentor a young QB, and I think that's the plan right now with DG/PS.
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So you expect PS and DG to say he is cooked?
I guess I should go with your observation instead?
Nope not at all. But new GM and HC are not going to tell the fans and media that Eli cant play and he should be cut
I would take their comments with a grain of salt.
Actions will speak louder than words. If they pass on a QB @ 2 (or a few spots later), I'll be more inclined to believe them. But for now, there's no reason for them to devalue him. It would kill any potential trade value if they had any interest in keeping that avenue open and it would tilt their draft hand in a major way to insinuate that they think Eli is finished.
Quote:
give me a break. Its kinda hard to evaluate him over the past 2 seasons. More like impossible. Shit O line, shit offensive scheme. Its just as viable to say he has 2 more Super Bowl MVPs left in him as it is to say he's done.
Eli will be the starter next year, and will be until he decides to retire.
Because he is GOOD. Very good. Check the analysis of a franchise QB thread. Football is a team game, and Eli can uphold his position well enough to win.
Name me the last VERY GOOD QB to lead his team to 14.5 pts per game for 16 games and miss playoffs in 5of6 seasons and the one playoff season he did nothing to contribute
Kurt Warner missed the playoffs in 6 straight seasons. But I am sure you have already forgotten that.
It's pretty bad when I have to think twice whether or not Eli would be an upgrade over Bortles RN.
Quote:
Gilbride said flatly that “I do not see a significant dropoff” in Manning’s play.
“What I know is this guy’s going to be prepared. He’ll always be as selfless, as hard working, as professional as you could ask anybody to be. When I do watch him on film I see a guy who’s arm strength is still the same.
“As I’ve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. He’s not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if you’re asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet you’ve got the wrong guy. That’s not who he is.”
Greg Cosell:
Quote:
Cosell on Eli the player: “It’s a bad offense, and has been for a while, and there’s many factors that go into that, and the QB bears the brunt of it. That’s just the reality of life in the NFL. I would say that it’s a team with a poor OL. It’s a team that can’t run the football, and Eli is a ‘dependent’ QB – Eli is dependent on the rest of the team to be successful. So right now, the ‘dependent’ parts are totally lacking, and he can’t be successful on any kind of consistent basis. It’s not a function of if he’s lost his ability to throw a football, he’s not lost his ability to understand the game and control a game at the line of scrimmage. He’s not lost his ability, but his style of QB’ing...he’s a ‘dependent’ player. There’s nothing for him to depend on right now within an offense that’s bad in every single area.”
Pat Shurmur:
Quote:
“I watched Eli throw a little bit this summer, and I walked away saying, ‘He looked really, really good,’ ’’ Shurmur said. “He looked fit. He was throwing the ball well. The ball had good velocity coming off his hand. And again, I think he’s got years left. How much, I don’t know. But I think he has time left, and I look forward to working with him.’’
Dave Gettleman:
Quote:
"I had an opportunity to watch [Manning's film] because the quarterback is the most important position on the team," Gettleman told reporters, per the team's website. "At the end of the day, it wasn't a mirage. It was not a mirage."
Quote:
General manager Dave Gettleman finally had a chance to watch all of Manning's game tape from 2017, and not just the impressive performance against the Eagles late in the season, and he came away impressed with what he saw. Gettleman didn't outright say it, but it's clear he blames the old offensive scheme, play calling, poor pass protection on the offensive line, injuries at wide receiver, and the lack of a running game for Manning's struggles.
According to Calvin Watkins on Twitter, Gettleman said the Giants have talent and “we will build it one brick at a time." Gettleman also said Manning will return and the Philly game was not a “mirage.” Gettleman made these comments at the Senior Bowl in Mobile as the Giants begin their process of scouting the draft prospects in the 2017 class.
There are more....
This is all in line with my opinion about Eli -- and I'll point out one more thing
MacAdoo was ready to dispense with Eli Manning for Geno Smith. He was locked into his scheme and not Eli's strengths as a player. And it was desperation on his part. Geno Smith wasn't going to win with that scheme. Geno Smith is a snatch defeat from the jaws of victory type player. MacAdoo wasn't going to win with that scheme either especially after Beckham went down --
MacAdoo was a one trick pony. You don't force a scheme on players that can't execute it for you. You change the scheme to fit the players -- BM was too damned stubborn and incapable of doing that. He fell for his own reviews. He stubbornly clung to what he knew from working with Aaron Rodgers.
That's bad coaching from a stubborn bull in the china shop, and it is not bad Quarterbacking!
If you are going to analyze Eli from that scheme and the poor coaching decisions that were made you are over-reacting - and analyzing from results, and not Eli's actual skills and where they are at.
But remember the predictability of our offense the last two years. Our 11 formation was the most used in history. We didnt carry fullbacks. McAdoo's offense was wretched beyond belief. When he was OC, you saw Coughlin's influence on the game plan.
Lets just hope Shurmur and Shula are the goods whether its Eli, Wbb, or the number 2 pick.
It's time to move on.
It's time to move on.
It's time to move on.
Wow -- so you're saying it doesn't matter if Eli has regressed, because he will regress?
Nice -- that covers all the bases for dismissal.
By the way - all the warty QBs that are available in the Draft are coming would be coming here not ready for the NFL yet. The Giants still have to play 16 games next year.
I for one would like to see what Eli can do in an Offense that set up to maximize his strengths - and frankly I'll take Kevin Gillbride's word for Eli's skill evaluation before anyone on this board.
Franchise QB is one position where, in my opinion, the "better a year early than a year late" rule doesn't apply. When you have one, you better run him into the ground because there are no guarantees that the next one can perform anywhere close to that level.
He's still capable of playing some good football, but he's not the player he was a few years ago. He's missing all sorts of throws he used to make, a tell-tale sign the arm is declining.
Sentimentality is part of what's killing this franchise.
He's still capable of playing some good football, but he's not the player he was a few years ago. He's missing all sorts of throws he used to make, a tell-tale sign the arm is declining.
Sentimentality is part of what's killing this franchise.
That last sentence a million times. It goes back to keeping Reese and Ross but firing TC. (I personally think all of them should've been fired at the same time). It's still affecting this franchise to this day.
And I'll add one other element: excuse making. This team has been cloaked in excuses for a while. Excuses for underperformance, excuses for behavior, excuses for a being a brutal team since 2012. It's been one rationalization after another.
Blaming the offensive line exclusively for Eli's drop in play is another in a long line of those rationalizations.
Hell, yea he's regressed.
And with the shit-ass o-line in front of him, he has also become more jittery and willing to go down at the first hint of pressure.
But I'll tell you when the bottom is out of the barrel for Eli... and it harks back to Kerry Collins' biggest flaw:
If Eli stops looking down field and starts to stare at his feet as his pocket collapses, he might as well retire.
"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"
It sounds silly.
You can either see it on the field, or you can't.
Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.
Because they have not declined as much as he has. They're human beings, not robots. Men in their late 30s react differently to aging. Also, I'm not sure how you would make the argument that Eli has been as consistent of a regular season qb as Ben. Perhaps that has something to do with it, perhaps Ben is just a better Qb. And I'm a big Eli fan, I'm also realistic.
Shopping him to who? We'd be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for him at this point
rueben randle agrees. the off has been broken twice in last 5yrs with eli at qb,but its never his fault.
Teams in this league can turn it around a lot quicker than they used to.
I am not ready for a Southern Californian at QB as a replacement. They have a tough time in the cold of the Northeast
"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"
It sounds silly.
You can either see it on the field, or you can't.
Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.
When you're saying a player is physically in decline, which is so often said here, what are you basing that on if not arm strength and other physical intangibles?
Quote:
Eli is one of my all-time favorites. But if I were GM, I'd be shopping him right now.
Shopping him to who? We'd be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for him at this point
Third Round???
I would happily take a sixth, unload his contract and move on to a new era, rebuilding with a freshly drafted QB.
It's past fucking time to blow this entire team up.
Quote:
Kevin Gilbride:
Quote:
Gilbride said flatly that “I do not see a significant dropoff” in Manning’s play.
“What I know is this guy’s going to be prepared. He’ll always be as selfless, as hard working, as professional as you could ask anybody to be. When I do watch him on film I see a guy who’s arm strength is still the same.
“As I’ve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. He’s not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if you’re asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet you’ve got the wrong guy. That’s not who he is.”
Greg Cosell:
Quote:
Cosell on Eli the player: “It’s a bad offense, and has been for a while, and there’s many factors that go into that, and the QB bears the brunt of it. That’s just the reality of life in the NFL. I would say that it’s a team with a poor OL. It’s a team that can’t run the football, and Eli is a ‘dependent’ QB – Eli is dependent on the rest of the team to be successful. So right now, the ‘dependent’ parts are totally lacking, and he can’t be successful on any kind of consistent basis. It’s not a function of if he’s lost his ability to throw a football, he’s not lost his ability to understand the game and control a game at the line of scrimmage. He’s not lost his ability, but his style of QB’ing...he’s a ‘dependent’ player. There’s nothing for him to depend on right now within an offense that’s bad in every single area.”
Pat Shurmur:
Quote:
“I watched Eli throw a little bit this summer, and I walked away saying, ‘He looked really, really good,’ ’’ Shurmur said. “He looked fit. He was throwing the ball well. The ball had good velocity coming off his hand. And again, I think he’s got years left. How much, I don’t know. But I think he has time left, and I look forward to working with him.’’
Dave Gettleman:
Quote:
"I had an opportunity to watch [Manning's film] because the quarterback is the most important position on the team," Gettleman told reporters, per the team's website. "At the end of the day, it wasn't a mirage. It was not a mirage."
Quote:
General manager Dave Gettleman finally had a chance to watch all of Manning's game tape from 2017, and not just the impressive performance against the Eagles late in the season, and he came away impressed with what he saw. Gettleman didn't outright say it, but it's clear he blames the old offensive scheme, play calling, poor pass protection on the offensive line, injuries at wide receiver, and the lack of a running game for Manning's struggles.
According to Calvin Watkins on Twitter, Gettleman said the Giants have talent and “we will build it one brick at a time." Gettleman also said Manning will return and the Philly game was not a “mirage.” Gettleman made these comments at the Senior Bowl in Mobile as the Giants begin their process of scouting the draft prospects in the 2017 class.
There are more....
This is all in line with my opinion about Eli -- and I'll point out one more thing
MacAdoo was ready to dispense with Eli Manning for Geno Smith. He was locked into his scheme and not Eli's strengths as a player. And it was desperation on his part. Geno Smith wasn't going to win with that scheme. Geno Smith is a snatch defeat from the jaws of victory type player. MacAdoo wasn't going to win with that scheme either especially after Beckham went down --
MacAdoo was a one trick pony. You don't force a scheme on players that can't execute it for you. You change the scheme to fit the players -- BM was too damned stubborn and incapable of doing that. He fell for his own reviews. He stubbornly clung to what he knew from working with Aaron Rodgers.
That's bad coaching from a stubborn bull in the china shop, and it is not bad Quarterbacking!
If you are going to analyze Eli from that scheme and the poor coaching decisions that were made you are over-reacting - and analyzing from results, and not Eli's actual skills and where they are at.
as if we needed more proof of McAdoo's incompetence. Ray Handley II
Quote:
Eli is one of my all-time favorites. But if I were GM, I'd be shopping him right now.
Shopping him to who? We'd be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for him at this point
I’d happily take a third for Eli.
New head coach
2nd pick overall
There is never going to be a better time to put an end to the excruciating half measures that have been team policy since Eli was made the starter in 2004. I'm tired of trying to catch lightning in a bottle. We all should be.
Quote:
Using some of the logic on this thread, QB's wouldn't regress until they're about 50 years old.
"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"
It sounds silly.
You can either see it on the field, or you can't.
Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.
When you're saying a player is physically in decline, which is so often said here, what are you basing that on if not arm strength and other physical intangibles?
Because there's more to it than just arm strength. It's decision-making, processing what's happening on the field, and results.
We've done nothing but lose with Eli under center for the majority of the last 6 seasons.
If it was just about how far a guy could chuck it, QB's would routinely play into their 40's. It's more than that.
Sentimentality is absolutely playing a major role in the way people view Eli's performance.
I get it. But I think a lot of the guys who are insisting that Eli still has it are really just trying to convince themselves more than anything else because that's what they want.
If I thought we could truly fix this OL this offseason, I'd be 100% committed to the idea of riding it out with Eli. But it's going to take a couple of years and eventually we have to concede that Eli won't play forever.
Not perfect, just an OL that's not in the Bottom 5 of the league, one of his Top 3 WRs play 16 games (hell, 12) and a RB in the Top 20 in the league.
The Mac offensive strategy....
No running game.....
No OL for the last 6 seasons....
The injuries to the receivers in 2017....
With all that, how can you truly judge someone?
I think he has something left, if he is with the right team.....the Giants just are not that team...
Quote:
Buffalo, Jacksonville...
It's pretty bad when I have to think twice whether or not Eli would be an upgrade over Bortles RN.
Has a NO TRADE!
Curious
lol Eli does not put up 45 in Pittsburgh, not even in his dreams
Curious
SF? The GW pass to Donnell in 2015?
Not sure if I can remember one more recently than that off the top of my head.
The type of investment the team will need to build around Eli at 37 seems like an inevitable upside down ROI.
Quote:
that Eli won a game with 2m left in Q4?
Curious
SF? The GW pass to Donnell in 2015?
Not sure if I can remember one more recently than that off the top of my head.
Are you serious? Chiefs game last year? Ravens and Saints games in 2016? You conveniently forgot those??
All Eli?
I'd say all Beckham in that Ravens game.
Also, Eli threw for like 200 yards and 0 TD's against KC - we also had to setting for FG's both times. Didn't score a single TD that day.
We're really crediting Eli for that?
LOL. Okay.
No, its because they have maintained their Franchise QB skills. They both had strong 2017 years.
And last I saw in January Big Ben was firing missiles all over the vaunted Jaguar defense. Brees left the field in Minnesota by bringing his team all the way back to take the lead (after an absolutely clutch perfect throw on 4th down no less keeping the drive alive) before the Saints defense blew it.
Quote:
Nobody is talking about their eroding skills, and why? Because they are both on substantially better teams.
No, its because they have maintained their Franchise QB skills. They both had strong 2017 years.
And last I saw in January Big Ben was firing missiles all over the vaunted Jaguar defense. Brees left the field in Minnesota by bringing his team all the way back to take the lead (after an absolutely clutch perfect throw on 4th down no less keeping the drive alive) before the Saints defense blew it.
You really thought Ben played that well against Jax? I doubt you watched it since the Jags were credited with FIVE dropped INTs. Forget aboot them?
Quote:
In comment 13862355 mikeygiants said:
Quote:
Buffalo, Jacksonville...
It's pretty bad when I have to think twice whether or not Eli would be an upgrade over Bortles RN.
Has a NO TRADE!
You act as if a player with a NTC has never been traded.
Quote:
In comment 13862287 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Eli is one of my all-time favorites. But if I were GM, I'd be shopping him right now.
Shopping him to who? We'd be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for him at this point
Third Round???
I would happily take a sixth, unload his contract and move on to a new era, rebuilding with a freshly drafted QB.
But to "unload" his contract via a trade incurs a dead cap hit of $12.4M. Wait another 5 days, and it jumps to $17.4M. Hardly worth it to net some late round picks.
Now, if they want to rid themselves of his contract, they can release him before the roster bonus due on 3/18 and designate him as a post June 1st cut. They will have to carry the full dead cap hit of $12.4M until June 1st at which time the cap hit is lessened to $6.2M this year and $6.2M next year. Of course, doing so leaves them with Webb and whomever they draft. With the assumption that a new QB is drafted, that limits DG's options in the draft.
Quote:
in 2016 was the one before that. All Eli.
All Eli?
I'd say all Beckham in that Ravens game.
Also, Eli threw for like 200 yards and 0 TD's against KC - we also had to setting for FG's both times. Didn't score a single TD that day.
While the no tds certainly enhance your argument... weather was brutal that game. Remember how bad Smith was for KC?
Wait until after this season when DG extends Eli a couple more years. I'll pray for BBI's Hamster.
Quote:
In comment 13862522 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
in 2016 was the one before that. All Eli.
All Eli?
I'd say all Beckham in that Ravens game.
Also, Eli threw for like 200 yards and 0 TD's against KC - we also had to setting for FG's both times. Didn't score a single TD that day.
While the no tds certainly enhance your argument... weather was brutal that game. Remember how bad Smith was for KC?
Smith was awful too - both offenses were and weather absolutely played a role in that.
I just wouldn't use that game as proof that Eli "still has it" - he did very little of note that day.
We only took the lead late in the 4th because Smith was intercepted by Jenkins who returned it all the way back to the KC 23. Eli could have just taken a dump on 3 snaps in a row and we still would have kicked that field goal.
Yet posters like above are talking to me like I'm a moron for not calling that a game winning/tying "drive" with under 2 minutes to go.
Good stuff.
We're a three-win team with limited cap space and five draft picks. I know things change quickly in the NFL, but come on. We're losing Richburg, Pugh and DRC, which means we have to commit resources to finding their replacements and then somehow procure enough talent on top of that to take us from 3 to 10/11 wins. If the Giants think that's feasible, we're heading back to the 1970s, if we're not already there. I'm OK with letting Eli play this year, but that's it.
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Using some of the logic on this thread, QB's wouldn't regress until they're about 50 years old.
"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"
It sounds silly.
You can either see it on the field, or you can't.
Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.
When you're saying a player is physically in decline, which is so often said here, what are you basing that on if not arm strength and other physical intangibles?
First, some of it is arm strength where as Eli cannot get away with his arm-alone anymore, meaning when he does not have time to get his feet underneath him balls now fall short or go high.
But its not only that, his downfield accuracy is way off versus prior years. And he is missing long and short with that accuracy which is a leading indicator of declining arm/body strength.
The other Pocket-Related factors include: lack of patience in letting plays develop; eyes dropping to rush; not wiggling around pocket, and taking off and running even less than ever; and the ball now popping out so much more on initial hits.
just to name a few...
It's not binary. It's possible that Eli may simultaneously be declining and still have good football left. It's fairly naïve to suggest that a 37 year old athlete is not declining at all. That's just a simple function of age, it's not a knock against Eli specifically.
It's strange how some posters are so protective of their perception of Eli that they absolutely refuse to face the reality that athletes do decline in their late 30s. Eli is simply not the same QB he was in 2011. That doesn't mean he can't still be effective with the right supporting cast. But it's more likely than not that the days of Eli putting the team on his back and carrying them to victory are gone, or at the very least, are going to be happening less and less frequently as we go forward.
And they're both a full year younger than Eli despite having been drafted the same year.
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In comment 13862431 arcarsenal said:
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Using some of the logic on this thread, QB's wouldn't regress until they're about 50 years old.
"He can still throw! Why are we trying to get rid of him?"
It sounds silly.
You can either see it on the field, or you can't.
Arm strength isn't typically how you determine whether a QB still has it or not.
When you're saying a player is physically in decline, which is so often said here, what are you basing that on if not arm strength and other physical intangibles?
First, some of it is arm strength where as Eli cannot get away with his arm-alone anymore, meaning when he does not have time to get his feet underneath him balls now fall short or go high.
But its not only that, his downfield accuracy is way off versus prior years. And he is missing long and short with that accuracy which is a leading indicator of declining arm/body strength.
The other Pocket-Related factors include: lack of patience in letting plays develop; eyes dropping to rush; not wiggling around pocket, and taking off and running even less than ever; and the ball now popping out so much more on initial hits.
just to name a few...
He was 5th in the NFL last year in catchable passes. So that negates a lot of what you wrote. And the Giants led the NFL in drops last year and didnt have their starting WRs for 2/3rds of the season.
All this needs to be taken into consideration as well.
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In comment 13862410 Bramton1 said:
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Nobody is talking about their eroding skills, and why? Because they are both on substantially better teams.
No, its because they have maintained their Franchise QB skills. They both had strong 2017 years.
And last I saw in January Big Ben was firing missiles all over the vaunted Jaguar defense. Brees left the field in Minnesota by bringing his team all the way back to take the lead (after an absolutely clutch perfect throw on 4th down no less keeping the drive alive) before the Saints defense blew it.
You really thought Ben played that well against Jax? I doubt you watched it since the Jags were credited with FIVE dropped INTs. Forget aboot them?
Ha, ha. He had 5 touchdowns, 450+ yards passing and his offense scored 40+ points.
Are you suggesting his regressing skills kept him from throwing 10 touchdowns and scoring 90 points?
chucklehead...
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Hasn't regressed. Many in the league know he has good football left. Many on this site will eat a lot of crow. Reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated
It's not binary. It's possible that Eli may simultaneously be declining and still have good football left. It's fairly naïve to suggest that a 37 year old athlete is not declining at all. That's just a simple function of age, it's not a knock against Eli specifically.
It's strange how some posters are so protective of their perception of Eli that they absolutely refuse to face the reality that athletes do decline in their late 30s. Eli is simply not the same QB he was in 2011. That doesn't mean he can't still be effective with the right supporting cast. But it's more likely than not that the days of Eli putting the team on his back and carrying them to victory are gone, or at the very least, are going to be happening less and less frequently as we go forward.
ding ding ... good post too from Googs.
He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.
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In comment 13862330 Glover said:
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give me a break. Its kinda hard to evaluate him over the past 2 seasons. More like impossible. Shit O line, shit offensive scheme. Its just as viable to say he has 2 more Super Bowl MVPs left in him as it is to say he's done.
Eli will be the starter next year, and will be until he decides to retire.
Because he is GOOD. Very good. Check the analysis of a franchise QB thread. Football is a team game, and Eli can uphold his position well enough to win.
Name me the last VERY GOOD QB to lead his team to 14.5 pts per game for 16 games and miss playoffs in 5of6 seasons and the one playoff season he did nothing to contribute
Kurt Warner missed the playoffs in 6 straight seasons. But I am sure you have already forgotten that.
And I debunked your foolishness by saying he did not quarterback the team much of those 6 seasons....playing a game or two or three does not count as Warner missing the playoffs 6 straigh years....
Or when Barkley goes number 1. Don't be so certain..
And I debunked your foolishness by saying he did not quarterback the team much of those 6 seasons....playing a game or two or three does not count as Warner missing the playoffs 6 straigh years....
He was 15-29 in those 6 years. I am sure you are going to counter with something that it wasnt his fault.
But carry on.
Ha, ha. He had 5 touchdowns, 450+ yards passing and his offense scored 40+ points.
Are you suggesting his regressing skills kept him from throwing 10 touchdowns and scoring 90 points?
chucklehead...
Stats are meaningless without context (isnt that what you preached when discussing Eli's week 15 game and dismissed it for a variety of reasons?) he was behind the whole game. Much of the reason because of his two turnovers earlier in the game. Yes, he had a monster 4th quarter going up against prevent defenses, and made some nice 4thdown throws....
but I can guarantee you that if Eli had a game where he threws for a bunch of yards and TDs and they lost because he was responsible for the whole he put them in and continued by constantly throwing passes that should have been intercepted (5 of them btw) - not one person, including you would praise him.
In fact all I have to do is go back to the week following the 2nd eagles game to prove my point.
Jimmy, you are a good poster and you may be right about Eli. But citing that game Ben played and using it as a stepping stone on how good Ben is is being very contradicting of some of the things you said about Eli after he had good games as well.
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passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career.
He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.
eli's panchant for risking passes has led to a lot of INTs, and he has thrown some bad ones in his career.
But without that mindset, the organization may be minus 2 SB titles as well. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.
New head coach
2nd pick overall
There is never going to be a better time to put an end to the excruciating half measures that have been team policy since Eli was made the starter in 2004. I'm tired of trying to catch lightning in a bottle. We all should be.
This. It's good to see most people feel this way now. 6 years of band-aids and patches that haven't worked. Why continue to do the same thing? There's literally not one good reason to. Not one.
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And I debunked your foolishness by saying he did not quarterback the team much of those 6 seasons....playing a game or two or three does not count as Warner missing the playoffs 6 straigh years....
He was 15-29 in those 6 years. I am sure you are going to counter with something that it wasnt his fault.
But carry on.
SO Eli played 96 games in that 6 year span and missed the playoffs in 5-6 seasons
That to you means Warner in 6 seasons played in 44 games means is the same? Fantastic
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In comment 13862437 carpoon said:
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passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career.
He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.
eli's panchant for risking passes has led to a lot of INTs, and he has thrown some bad ones in his career.
But without that mindset, the organization may be minus 2 SB titles as well. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.
Or the team got hot in a avarage season at the right time and got some lucky breaks in 07 to win the SB and got hot in 11 at the right time after 9-7 season.
Am sure Eli's aggressiveness for picks is what won us those 2 SB
Warner had a stretch of football that was hideous for 6 years. Thats all I am saying.
Or the team got hot in a avarage season at the right time and got some lucky breaks in 07 to win the SB and got hot in 11 at the right time after 9-7 season.
Am sure Eli's aggressiveness for picks is what won us those 2 SB
On my re-entry to BBI, I promised that I wouldnt get myself caught in this. So Ill just leave it as have a good day.
He's still capable of playing some good football, but he's not the player he was a few years ago. He's missing all sorts of throws he used to make, a tell-tale sign the arm is declining.
Sentimentality is part of what's killing this franchise.
We need to fix the OL and attitudes first and foremost.
And I don't bash Eli for the sake of doing it (although sometimes its fun to poke at Britt when he gets a bit too ridiculous but I never start it). I am a proponent of shedding Eli though and fixing the Giants, and imo he is in the way of really doing it. My opinion and i will give whenever I want.
I absolutely thought Eli played well against the Eagles that second game. But the good games have become far more infrequent and he is far more inconsistent than ever. And simply one week later (vs ARZ) we see the result.
He isn't going to carry the Offense anymore. Its simply not going to happen. So, in my view, I want to move on before this becomes a true liability...
And I don't bash Eli for the sake of doing it (although sometimes its fun to poke at Britt when he gets a bit too ridiculous but I never start it). I am a proponent of shedding Eli though and fixing the Giants, and imo he is in the way of really doing it. My opinion and i will give whenever I want.
I absolutely thought Eli played well against the Eagles that second game. But the good games have become far more infrequent and he is far more inconsistent than ever. And simply one week later (vs ARZ) we see the result.
He isn't going to carry the Offense anymore. Its simply not going to happen. So, in my view, I want to move on before this becomes a true liability...
well as far as Ben's game against Jax, its all matter of opinion. I wasnt too impressed with it. I have seen him play much better. Much like I have seen Eli play much better than week 15 against Philly.
As far as Eli's future. I do understand wanting to start over, I really do. I am not going to judge it by 2017 though. Injuries to OBJ and BM in the preseason. A terrible defense and run game to start the year, than injuries to everyone. It was as bad as bad could be.
I am a huge fan of drafting Darnold orRosen at 2. And start Eli. I think he certianly can play at a level that a Blake Bortles, Nick Foles, and Case Keenum played at last year and they were winning playoff games. Now will our team be good enough? Probably not. So start Eli, and if the season goes to shit early - put the rookie in.
I just dont think people realize how bad we were last year. We may have been the worst coached team in the NFL last year and we had probably the worst talent from week 8 on.
I know people hate this phrase. But Eli and everyone returning (including Apple, Flowers, etc...) they get a do-over or even a one last chance.
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When the Giants don’t take a QB.
Or when Barkley goes number 1. Don't be so certain..
I want no part of Barkley at 2.
What people don’t realize here is the GM and HC don’t give a flying fuck if the Giants are “set at the QB position for the next 10-15 years,” if there’s even one of those in this draft. It’s their job to put together a good team and win football games. If they don’t win relatively soon, they’ll be gone just like the last regime. DG and Sherman have what, maybe a 3 year leash to turn it around? 4?
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In comment 13862437 carpoon said:
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passes last year? As a matter of fact, I would bet we have been amongst the leaders in dropped passes for his entire career.
He's also led the NFL in interceptions (by a fairly wide margin) since he entered the league. It's not all on the receivers, and never has been. That's a pretty weak defense of Eli, to be honest.
eli's panchant for risking passes has led to a lot of INTs, and he has thrown some bad ones in his career.
But without that mindset, the organization may be minus 2 SB titles as well. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.
That's absolutely fair, and I agree with it. The context of my point was simply about blaming the receivers for drops without acknowledging that it cuts both ways. I have never downplayed the role that Eli played for us in winning two Super Bowls, and never will. But I also recognize that he's not the same player that he was then, and at 37 years old, it's silly to expect him to be.
Doesn’t matter. Eli is the teflon.
Well put Xman! Eli is making throws that are beyond awful, not always but I would agree he is near the top of the league in missing wide open receivers. He is also very skittish in the pocket. Sentimentality is killing us. They shouldn’t have started Geno and should have played Webb. #2 pick 37 year old QB. Do people really want to go back to the Brown, Kannel, etc. years?
Eli was 5th in the league in catchable balls last year. And the giants were first drops.
So um, yeah.
This is about as well as it can be summed up from my point of view:
Gatorade Dunk : 3/13/2018 3:53 pm :
It's not binary. It's possible that Eli may simultaneously be declining and still have good football left. It's fairly naïve to suggest that a 37 year old athlete is not declining at all. That's just a simple function of age, it's not a knock against Eli specifically.
It's strange how some posters are so protective of their perception of Eli that they absolutely refuse to face the reality that athletes do decline in their late 30s. Eli is simply not the same QB he was in 2011. That doesn't mean he can't still be effective with the right supporting cast. But it's more likely than not that the days of Eli putting the team on his back and carrying them to victory are gone, or at the very least, are going to be happening less and less frequently as we go forward.
It is both ridiculous to say the Eli hasn't regressed at all as well as say he's one of the worst QB's in the league. I also don't know how in one breath people can say that McAdoo was complete shit with one of the worst offensive schemes around and then complain that eli didn't look good in that system. I just wish Mac would've prepared Webb so he could've tried to move to him last year instead of Geno. Right now, we'd know a lot more about what we have in a succession plan if that idiot had any competency.
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So 2014-2015 Eli on 2017 Giants would be a different result? I just don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion. How can you look good under last years' circumstances?
I don't understand your argument. The 2014 and 2015 New York Giants were not good teams. But Eli played better in those years. He was worse in 2016 when they made the playoffs. He was worse last year. Statistically this is fact. But just look at his play on the field.
If you ask me, I'm not sure where he is psychologically right now. He looks skittish to me. The years of playing behind shoddy OL's may have caught up to him.
This is what I think the problem is. He doesn’t trust his line and it has mentally screwed him. Look how quickly he gives himself up some times. And I don’t blame him. When you have a 250 lb man barreling down on you unblocked regularly it can be mentally taxing.
The smart thing to do is draft his predecssor. Let Eli start the year. If things go well, great keep playing him. If we start off 2-5 or worse.... then let the rookie play the last half of the year.
I think Eli can still win games with his talent, but if the team isnt up to snuff- then move onto Darnold, Rosen, ALlen, or Webb.
It was truly one of the worst offenses ever drawn up.
When a team regresses like the Giants did its hard for the qb to elevate himself and that team. If you want to say Eli caused this regression ok fine, but I don’t see it that way.
Keith : 9:50 am : link : reply
you are spot on. That's the move. Draft a QB, if for some magical reason we are in contention, keep Eli in. If not, it's 2004 all over again.
I hate to ever say you "have" to select a certain position, but with the #2 pick - it is there for us. However, if we trade down and amass picks, especially a #1 next year, that wouldn't be too bad either.
I think we are going to be better than most people here think. When you see everything possibly go wrong like it did last year, law of averages tend to even out. I mean without Beckham, a number 2 WR, and SS banged up for 10 games.... thats a huge loss for anyone. I mean in our last game we started Darkwa, Sharp, Bundy, Rudolph, and Jerrell Adams. I mean christ.
Now, Eli has to play better and cant miss on some of the throws he missed earlier in the year and he needs to stop fumbling the ball when sacked. However, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think Shurmus is a HUGE upgrade over McAdoo, and we still have a lot of talent on defense, albeit it not as good as we hoped. Hopefully Betcher brings new life to these boys. Maybe Apple grows up? Snacks and Tomlinson are as good as it gets. Vernon needs to step up. Jpp needs to show up. Let Collins and hopefully Mathieu run wreckless in the secondary.
I dont know. If we look back on 7-8 games we lost last year, you could say to yourself, man with an OBJ or a bounce here, we could have easily been 8-8, which I know isnt great however we were still coached by McAdoo.
Things in the NFL are funny. You can win a lot of games that you didnt expect.
I've been saying that all season. People just choose not to listen.
It was truly one of the worst offenses ever drawn up.
This. It is really difficult to make a fair evaluation of Eli, or any offensive player, given how bland and predictable the offense was. I am open to the possibility that Eli may not have it any more, and I am fairly certain he isn't the player he was even 3 years ago (which was, by the way, pretty damn good year). I'm excited to see what he can do with a real offensive coach, and a betterOL.
Either way, Eli should not preclude the Giants from taking a QB at #2. If there is a guy there they like, they will take him. Of that I am certain.
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:17 pm : link
Here's how it's going to go.
Eli's replacement is drafted in Round 1 this year IF, and this is a big IF, they are in position to draft somebody they covet.
Davis Webb and new Quarterback duel it out for #2 in camp.
Eli starts the season, and depending on how it goes, he continues to play if they're winning or contributing.
One of two things happen, the Giants have a successful season which results in Eli starting the following season in his final year in his deal and whatever happens happens? Or they struggle and the new coach decides mid season that it's time to make the transition and they do it, ala Warner to Eli.
I know it's hard for people to wrap their heads around, but here's what's NOT going to happen:
Davis Webb will not start any game this season. His best case scenario is to be elevated to number 2 and come in the 2nd half of games to get some time.
Eli will not be cut or traded in the offseason.
Eli will not be a pay cut. I could see him restructuring if he works out an agreement that he will be allowed to play out his contract and retire gracefully, but who knows....
Link - ( New Window )
Well I understand your point. But my feeling is this. Can we get into the playoffs? If so, then I dont care Eli is 37 or 57, Ill still put money on him. But even if we get into the playoffs and lose, the team has improved and we are going onto the right path. We have seen FAs we wanted go to better teams. I think we have gotten better. New MLB, SLB, LT, RG, and possibly safety.
I even called it after the benching that McAdoo and Reese would be canned mid season, that Sullivan or Spagnuolo would be elevated to interim head coach, and that Eli would be re-inserted into the starting QB position.
The ONLY thing I got wrong was that Eli would ever be benched in the first place. I didn't think it would happen because of the streak, and initially, it wasn't planned for it to happen, it was Eli who benched himself essentially. Ironically, this indirectly (at the very least hastened) led to McAdoo and Reese getting canned mid season.
All season long I debated these these people, was pretty much right about everything (and them wrong), and yet I'm the irrational one.
It's pretty funny, actually.
The biggest asset Favre, Elway, Moon, etc have had going into their golden years of QBing is there incredible arm talent. Since Eli doesn't have that, the decline is underway...
The biggest asset Favre, Elway, Moon, etc have had going into their golden years of QBing is there incredible arm talent. Since Eli doesn't have that, the decline is underway...
Respectfully disagree. I think Eli’s arm is the same. The offense isn’t. Give Eli a relatively clean pocket and WRs worth half a shit and he will throw the same elite Nfl out he threw in 2010.
The only real area where I can say there is a decline noticed is in his ability to stand in the pocket, and I think some of that came from coaching. It looks like he was told to get rid of the ball to avoid sacks instead of staying in and taking hits or forcing the throws for INT's.
And actually I think there have been quite a few guys chime in (like Gilbride) who say the arm looks the same.
The only real area where I can say there is a decline noticed is in his ability to stand in the pocket, and I think some of that came from coaching. It looks like he was told to get rid of the ball to avoid sacks instead of staying in and taking hits or forcing the throws for INT's.
And actually I think there have been quite a few guys chime in (like Gilbride) who say the arm looks the same.
Gilbride, Greg Cosell, Gettleman, Shurmer, Pat Kirwan, etc...
And on Eli, my evaluation has been fairly consistent over the past several years as to the decline in his play/skills. The main difference now only being how it is really accelerating.
I never said you had to rely on my view. But don't crap on it, especially since this team isn't exactly kicking ass and taking names since 2011 with our guy under center...
Eli is a funny one, he's very smart and his ability to read defenses and know where he's throwing the ball is amazing, but he's not very cerebral as the play is going on. If he misreads or his options aren't there, he makes very bad decisions, sometimes mind boggling.
The only real area where I can say there is a decline noticed is in his ability to stand in the pocket, and I think some of that came from coaching. It looks like he was told to get rid of the ball to avoid sacks instead of staying in and taking hits or forcing the throws for INT's.
And actually I think there have been quite a few guys chime in (like Gilbride) who say the arm looks the same.
This team was dreadfully coached under Mcadoo. The offense and atmosphere and aura was so bad it literally reduced eli to tears. It literally made him look terrible. There were games we struggled to get the ball to Odell Beckham. You hear that? Odell fucking Beckham and eli fucking Manning went through entire halfs of games where they failed to get in sync and it wasn’t because of the ol. It was the entire offensive philosophy and scheme. They rarely had a plan that worked early and they never ever ever adjusted to what defenses were doing to them, and what those defenses did was grotesque.
Forget 2016-2017. Place it in a hard to reach vault in your brain along with 91-92 and move on.
1995!!!
Is Eli Manning as bad as Dave brown? He must be right?
Mcadoo wrecked this team. Fucking wrecked it. Thank god he was bad enough to warrant a quick hook. I only wish the team sucked this bad in 2016 to hasten his departure but we will have to settle for two years of hell.
To win 11 games with that wack job mess calling the shots is nothing short of incredible. Handley only won 8 games and 6 games respectively. Then reeves came in and restored some order. Shurmur will too.
My friends and family yell at me for the same shit with texting. So I guess it’s me? Ill tell them Keith (kmed) said the same thing further validating the complaints.
I’ll try harder. Ps had knee surgery last night just a partial meniscus removal... I’d use the dopey effects of the pain killers as an excuse but I’m always dopey.
You want to dump on Manning? No big deal, but maybe once in a while think about the possibility (good possibility in my opinion) that you are wrong, and maybe lower your own opinion a couple of notches if you think your opinion should hold as much weight as people who have lived and breathed football for decades.
As for me being wrong, I'm wrong a lot, no big deal, I'm learning that an open mind is a valuable part of growing.
Bring your debate if you disagree as to a football opinion as I am happy to go head to head on topics. But bring more than a post made tongue in cheek like the braindead one as it wasn’t calling anybody specific out like u did.
Besides I usually post those types after a few martinis so cut me some slack...
Besides I usually post those types after a few martinis so cut me some slack...
Fair enough
I have been a dick lately. No excuse this is just a passionate topic and this period or moment in nyg history is so important... we all want the best. I have to remember that. If I have come off as assholish i apologize to everyone.
Now, why is he doing that? Clearly having a poor OL is one reason. But I think it's also the system - he's been trained to make quick reads and quick decisions, and I think he's been coached to NOT take chances downfield but to take the easier underneath stuff. He's protecting the Duke, which means his overall turnover numbers may be down but so are his big plays.
I personally think he still has enough in every way (physically, mentally, competitive drive) to perform well in this league. I'm not sure he's a perfect fit for the offense Shurmur will want to run, but then again Shurmur has lots of experience in different offenses, so if he's smart he'll build something Eli can be successful in.
With regards to whether the Giants HAVE to take another QB right now - I disagree. They will only take one if they are completely in love with one. I doubt they are. I think they'll go with Barkley, who should definitely be there for them. Personally I hope they do because I think he's a generational player and would really open things up offensively for this team right away, way more than any of the QB's or other picks could.
Thanks - just my opinion but I think that Eli is NOT the best QB for the type of offense that McAdoo was trying to install. Meaning, the ideal QB for that type of offense is one who has nearly perfect touch and accuracy on the short passes. The offense was designed to maximize YAC with all of the slants/crossing routes, and teams learned to sit back and allow the underneath passes. Eli's never had the best touch passes in the short game and when receivers have to wait, turn, stretch or come back to a pass it kills YAC and allows NFL defenders to quickly approach and tackle.
If Shurmur is smart and wants to play Eli he will NOT design such an offense IMO.
What Would Gilbride Say?
Respectfully disagree. I think Eli’s arm is the same. The offense isn’t. Give Eli a relatively clean pocket and WRs worth half a shit and he will throw the same elite Nfl out he threw in 2010.
The passes between the hashes when he has time looks - I guess - the same. The passes outside the hashes look much different to me - the ball seems to float a lot more. And even more so when he's on the move...
Again, this is what's supposed to happen when you're 38. It's a natural progression. But if you really think he throws just as well as when he was 24 than I guess we watch a different game...
Not yet.
Looking forward to some responses though. Do u want to take a crack Crick?
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In comment
Respectfully disagree. I think Eli’s arm is the same. The offense isn’t. Give Eli a relatively clean pocket and WRs worth half a shit and he will throw the same elite Nfl out he threw in 2010.
The passes between the hashes when he has time looks - I guess - the same. The passes outside the hashes look much different to me - the ball seems to float a lot more. And even more so when he's on the move...
Again, this is what's supposed to happen when you're 38. It's a natural progression. But if you really think he throws just as well as when he was 24 than I guess we watch a different game...
For the uninformed, at Jints Central, 37 year old players are 38.
Just wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page.
Eli showed he can play in a ACO hybrid, like the one they ran with McAdoo as OC. It is pretty clear now that TC had a LT more influence on that offense than many of us realized.
Eli can play with a spread short passing scheme, just give him a decent OL and running game, take a few shots downfield. Shurmer’s scheme in Minny is VERY similar.
So lets round up to 38...
Seriously though, get better soon, it’s actually an easy recovery.
Seriously though, get better soon, it’s actually an easy recovery.
I was surprised they gave me painkillers honestly. I don’t need them anymore. Really not bad at all 24 hours later.
Nice parting gift tho...
So lets round up to 38...
I've been firmly in the camp of Eli being in decline, but I also don't think anyone needs to fudge the numbers to show it. bw was talking about observations/examples that have already happened, so rounding up for the next time Eli takes a snap doesn't really apply here.
IMO, and admittedly I'm no expert, but Eli would do best in a much more balanced offense. He would do well with a power run game that would set up play-action where he can be very good. The passing game would focus less on YAC and more on air yards, primarily through vertical routes by receivers (TE included).
As I watched McAdoo's offense closely over the past couple of years what stood out to me was the incredible number of routes run for very short yards. It seems every play had a minimum of two receivers running routes of less than 10 yards. These horizontal routes were open much more often and quickly and as time passed Eli went to them much more often but consistently for fewer and fewer yards. Compressing the offensive attack didn't work, so I think the opposite would be best for Eli.
Wonder why the Eli Fan Club can't weigh in, all though I can speculate...
What's the Offense for the attributes Eli has today?