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The #Giants are expected to sign former #Patriots LT Nate Solder, source said. They get their franchise left tackle. Huge get.
All the Patriots OL benefit from Brady, the offense, and Scarnecchia so I would stay away from them all things being equal, but hard to argue he's the best option out there.
that has always been Flowers more natural position. I expect he'll have to compete for it with a rookie or lower cost veteran, but he'll likely win that battle and go on to be a very good RT.
Now time for DG to find the next Norwells at the guard spots.
I think relative to the tackle play we've been subjected to
for the last 6-8 years, this place will be ready to enshrine him in Canton after a few games. Not saying he's the greatest, but he's better than we've had in a long time.
All the Patriots OL benefit from Brady, the offense, and Scarnecchia so I would stay away from them all things being equal, but hard to argue he's the best option out there.
Flowers to RT?
We don't need a savior, just competence. We have had a completely incompetent line for 5 plus years.
Average or slightly above, and this is a different team.
All the Patriots OL benefit from Brady, the offense, and Scarnecchia so I would stay away from them all things being equal, but hard to argue he's the best option out there.
Flowers to RT?
Of course not but he is a huge upgrade at LT that also upgrades RT with Flowers moving over there. With the amount of money that Hubbard, Fulton, etc. got nobody should complain about Solder's contract.
RE: Also the domino effect of Solder is improving the RT spot as well
that has always been Flowers more natural position. I expect he'll have to compete for it with a rookie or lower cost veteran, but he'll likely win that battle and go on to be a very good RT.
Now time for DG to find the next Norwells at the guard spots.
Flowers needs to be at guard or on the bench. His problems at left tackle will be problems at right tackle as well.
best case scenario, he thrives at right tackle where he doesn't have the pressure of protecting the blind side. worst case, he sulks at the perceived demotion, withdraws and gets benched and then cut.
is left tackle. Now that we've done that, there are a number of good guard in this draft. I would so like to get Isaiah Wynn for left guard, but he should be gone before our 2nd round pick.
this was a desperation move after not getting Norwell and they prob threw the bank at him. I mean, every move on the OL is a desperation move at this point. If the money is close to the same as Norwell, I think I'd rather of had Norwell, but LT is much harder to find than G.
Good get regardless. Will definitely make the OL better. Sitton on the cheap would be a great signing.
Solder..Sitton..Jones..???...Flowers would be a great start to a turnaround on the OL.
Anyone have good scouting on him? How good is he really? I've heard mixed comments.
I think wheeler showed better feet last year than flowers ever has. A year in the weight room and he can go from 310 to 340 with his height and not lose an once of quickness. Don't know if flowers can actually play OG but I just think wheeler has more potential. Sadly since flowers was a 10 pick. But that's a sunk cost and we need to do what's best moving forward
that has always been Flowers more natural position. I expect he'll have to compete for it with a rookie or lower cost veteran, but he'll likely win that battle and go on to be a very good RT.
Now time for DG to find the next Norwells at the guard spots.
Flowers needs to be at guard or on the bench. His problems at left tackle will be problems at right tackle as well.
Disagree - his biggest problem is technique, which has improved year to year and would face a much bigger learning curve kicking inside to guard.
I think wheeler showed better feet last year than flowers ever has. A year in the weight room and he can go from 310 to 340 with his height and not lose an once of quickness. Don't know if flowers can actually play OG but I just think wheeler has more potential. Sadly since flowers was a 10 pick. But that's a sunk cost and we need to do what's best moving forward
Flowers ideal weight is in the 310-325 range. He isn't getting up to 340.
who is scared shitless by this signing. Solder seems like he's always nursing an injury and yeah, he didn't miss any games this past season... during a contract year. And generally he has been fine as far as making it through a season goes but I don't know. The guy seems like a ticking time bomb, more so than most players. He probably won't be as likely at 30+ years old to will himself through injuries now that he has a fat contract.
I'm glad they have him if the reports are true and that they're actually doing something to try and fix the line. I just hope the guy stays healthy and that it's structured in a way that they can bail in a couple of years if he's not working out.
The price-tag will be big, but it's arguably the biggest need on the team. The Giants stabilized a position that has been a major issue for 4 or so years.
So far in this offseason, we've added a good LT and a good LB. Took a ton of money to do it, but at least those 2 major weaknesses now become positions of stability.
I think wheeler showed better feet last year than flowers ever has. A year in the weight room and he can go from 310 to 340 with his height and not lose an once of quickness. Don't know if flowers can actually play OG but I just think wheeler has more potential. Sadly since flowers was a 10 pick. But that's a sunk cost and we need to do what's best moving forward
Flowers ideal weight is in the 310-325 range. He isn't getting up to 340.
Solder isn't great but he's a legitimate LT. This also has a domino effect in that we can now move Flowers and figure out if he's better suited on the right side or even in the interior.
Yeah we paid good money here, but I think it was necessary.
The idea of drafting Nelson is pretty appealing to me. This line could transform quite a bit in one year if we were to get him.
Solder isn't great but he's a legitimate LT. This also has a domino effect in that we can now move Flowers and figure out if he's better suited on the right side or even in the interior.
Yeah we paid good money here, but I think it was necessary.
The idea of drafting Nelson is pretty appealing to me. This line could transform quite a bit in one year if we were to get him.
Only if they traded down. I don't see the benefit of using such a high pick on a guard when they could get a very good guard in round 2.
Solder isn't great but he's a legitimate LT. This also has a domino effect in that we can now move Flowers and figure out if he's better suited on the right side or even in the interior.
Yeah we paid good money here, but I think it was necessary.
The idea of drafting Nelson is pretty appealing to me. This line could transform quite a bit in one year if we were to get him.
Only if they traded down. I don't see the benefit of using such a high pick on a guard when they could get a very good guard in round 2.
I wouldn't take Nelson @ 2 - I've said that the only 2 guys I'd take there are Barkley or Rosen.
If not, I'd move down a few spots for Nelson or Fitzpatrick if the trade opp is there.
I need to come away with one of those 4 players if I am NYG, though.
Solder isn't great but he's a legitimate LT. This also has a domino effect in that we can now move Flowers and figure out if he's better suited on the right side or even in the interior.
Yeah we paid good money here, but I think it was necessary.
The idea of drafting Nelson is pretty appealing to me. This line could transform quite a bit in one year if we were to get him.
Agreed. Cant just look at Solder and the cap number in a vacuum. Has a multiplier effect on the rest of the line and flexibility in making other moves on the line.
what's that based on? He is 6'7. 20-30 pounds on that frame is not that big a deal and all reports were that he was very thin in the lower body. An off season of hard leg work puts on a lot of weight
Perhaps... but similar claims were made at the time we signed JPP and Vernon.
Vernon yes, JPP no. JPP was a big-time gamble based on all of his injury history. Vernon is a good comp because he was a reliable and solid two way end, but not a top player at his position. Solder is similar.
I think we did what we had to to start to solidify this line.
Overpay for a LT that was considered the best in a weak FA market. If you noticed, however, prices for Olinemen are going up and will continue to in Free Agency. I'm not surprised by the contract. We have to draft some hog mollies to play Guard now. This move also pushes Flowers to the right side as well, which is what everyone has been clamoring about the past few years. Hopefully its a more natural position and we get pleasantly surprised. I think Wheeler may be competition for him however and I don't see the Giants just handing him the RT job.
Nate Solder signed a 4 year, $62,000,000 contract with the New York Giants, including $35,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $15,500,000.
what's that based on? He is 6'7. 20-30 pounds on that frame is not that big a deal and all reports were that he was very thin in the lower body. An off season of hard leg work puts on a lot of weight
He has never played at that weight. Adding that much weight to his frame would slow him down. Now if Wheeler were to move inside that would make sense but at LT it is more beneficial to play at a more comfortable weight.
In what the Giants look like they are doing and that is commit to Eli for 2 more years, they had to sign this guy, for better or worse. I would say drafting Barkley seems like the next move, if the Browns pass on him.
Defensively, they may think they can get back to the 2016 production with a new coach and improved health.
I just get the sense, they think they can get back into the playoff hunt next season.
is that it gives Wheeler another season to get stronger to potentially take over at RT in a year when Flowers' deal is up. If Flowers improves and is retained then Wheeler would have at least two more years to develop behind Solder to replace him.
If Wheeler develops as hoped he would be cheaper to re-sign due to his lack of playing time compared to a player that was starting for several years.
First, I'm talking about him at RT. Solder is LT. Second, yes, he never played at that weight but he also never has been in an NFL weight training program and his big deficit this year was strength. If he's under 325-330 this year after a year in the weight room, I'll be surprised.
In what the Giants look like they are doing and that is commit to Eli for 2 more years, they had to sign this guy, for better or worse. I would say drafting Barkley seems like the next move, if the Browns pass on him.
Defensively, they may think they can get back to the 2016 production with a new coach and improved health.
I just get the sense, they think they can get back into the playoff hunt next season.
Don't worry about "highest paid OL" tags - that goes out the window the second the next solid player is up in a starved market. Not worth getting hung up over.
Don't worry about "highest paid OL" tags - that goes out the window the second the next solid player is up in a starved market. Not worth getting hung up over.
Yes remember when Snacks was considered overpaid? Seems like a bargain now.
Solid player but he has had issues in pass protection too. He's overrated in free agency because he's the best tackle in a bad market.
Agreed, but that's the reality of the situation. It's crazy to make Solder the highest paid LT in the league, but we are out of options. We have a 38 year old immobile QB. Solder provides stability at the most important position on the OL.
will improve on the right side (as I do), this deal is a no-brainer. It's very likely they just upgraded 2 positions.
Flowers was drafted to be a RT. Beatty had just signed his 2nd contract here before getting hurt and forcing them to scramble with Flowers to the left.
Barkley and Nelson are the best 2 players in the draft. Now let's go get one of them.
First, I'm talking about him at RT. Solder is LT. Second, yes, he never played at that weight but he also never has been in an NFL weight training program and his big deficit this year was strength. If he's under 325-330 this year after a year in the weight room, I'll be surprised.
We will see. I expected Will Beatty to bulk up in the NFL but his weight didn't really increase much. Look at Solder, he is 6'8" and only 320 lbs.
Solid player but he has had issues in pass protection too. He's overrated in free agency because he's the best tackle in a bad market.
Agreed, but that's the reality of the situation. It's crazy to make Solder the highest paid LT in the league, but we are out of options. We have a 38 year old immobile QB. Solder provides stability at the most important position on the OL.
Seriously. How do they get out of this mess? They don't have an o-line either all of a sudden. Only tackle is Waddle. I know they went all in this year but they failed spectacularly to the damn Eagles.
Ooof. He's 30 with some injury and consistency concerns. Hoping it works out but this deal scares the shit out of me. It looks like it's more motivated by shortsighted desperation than the longhaul, which is where I think this franchise should have it's priorities.
I get the signing, just don't really agree with it.
I don't see all the faith in Wheeler as being justified. He's
Giants can save FA money by hiring people who can get a better estimation of OL NFL ability. Does this team employ a scout or personnel official that has experience scouting Offensive Linemen? The Giants really have been blowing it since the last Superbowl run. Its sobering to consume so much cap on a non QB. Please Giants run a tighter more professional system of talent evaluation. Fans are not confident.
but this is paying a lot of money for a slightly below average starting left tackle. I guess we aren't going to have money to pay for back ups, another year where we can't afford any injuries.
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Nate is a top 11 (mostly top 10) tackle for his last 5 years in PFF run blocking and PFF pass blocking. His Pass Blocking dropped a touch in 2017, but was way better his previous 6 years. His run blocking was top 12 last year, and top 10 the previous 6.
Stop for anyone overeacting to the $, it means zip. We have 90+m cap room the next 2 years. We'll extend OBJ and Collins and still have 50+m to play with BEFORE we release a qb after 2018 who makes 20m.
This signing is a massive win and beyond needed. He is 10x that of Eric Flowers.
but this is paying a lot of money for a slightly below average starting left tackle. I guess we aren't going to have money to pay for back ups, another year where we can't afford any injuries.
Ereck Flowers is a below average LT. Solder is above average.
I believe he is a better fit at LT but according to several scouting reports they predict that Wheeler could kick inside. Could he be an option to replace Pugh at LG?
Couldn't agree more. Nelson, Barkley, Minka or Chubb for me at 2. I do love Rosen's arm and Baker's accuracy, but I dont think either are worth a top 5 pick. The other 4 are
Keep Calm #Giants fans. A little bit of context regarding Nate Solders' #32 PFF ranking last year. True, he had a poor start to the year (around the time he was dealing with a lot of personal issues), but from Week 9 on he was our 3rd rated T and 2nd rated LT.
The highest paid linemen in the league and highest drafted guard I can recall is a massive investment for an OLine that would still require lots of work. You can draft good guards at value later in the draft.
This is a risky one(not saying it can't work out). We cannot go into the season with the same crappy line, but is this a sign that the Giants actually think they can contend in 2018?
Nate is a top 11 (mostly top 10) tackle for his last 5 years in PFF run blocking and PFF pass blocking. His Pass Blocking dropped a touch in 2017, but was way better his previous 6 years. His run blocking was top 12 last year, and top 10 the previous 6.
Stop for anyone overeacting to the $, it means zip. We have 90+m cap room the next 2 years. We'll extend OBJ and Collins and still have 50+m to play with BEFORE we release a qb after 2018 who makes 20m.
This signing is a massive win and beyond needed. He is 10x that of Eric Flowers.
It is not a "massive win" and may end up being a massive lose. It's a sign of a desperate team that has to over-pay for players never secured in the Draft. We now have a history of doing that and it's no recipe for long term success.
positional rankings in football as something to take seriously.
It's a team sport. Maybe there are a few positions where rankings might hold more water than others.
How can you accurately "rank" a tackle in football? The only thing he totally owns personally is number of penalties committed.
What about blocking scheme? What about how often a tackle is helped out with backs and receivers? What about playing next to a shitty guard or on a bad OL in general? What about blocking for a QB who holds on to the ball too long? How do rankings account for such things outside of a player's control?
Nate Solder is a quality football player who started at LT for the best team in the NFL during his time there and just played in the Super Bowl. I'm pretty sure he will be a huge upgrade for our OL group which has been a running joke in the NFL going on 5 years now.
The highest paid linemen in the league and highest drafted guard I can recall is a massive investment for an OLine that would still require lots of work. You can draft good guards at value later in the draft.
Darnold or Barkley are the obvious choices here.
Reese couldn't. Couldn't draft them high either. Let's hope Gettleman can and does.
who is scared shitless by this signing. Solder seems like he's always nursing an injury and yeah, he didn't miss any games this past season... during a contract year. And generally he has been fine as far as making it through a season goes but I don't know. The guy seems like a ticking time bomb, more so than most players. He probably won't be as likely at 30+ years old to will himself through injuries now that he has a fat contract.
+1.
Lots of $$$ for a 30/31 y.o. LT who has dings and a child with a major health issue.
$15M already seems overpay, but if he helps keep a DE off Eli/ our QB so our big 3-5 complete routes and pops holes for our RBs, maybe even turn Perkins into an NFLer, he's a bargain.
So. Its EF at RT,RG, or the bench ( doubt adios).Hope they turn him into an allPro RG.
I'm glad they have him if the reports are true and that they're actually doing something to try and fix the line. I just hope the guy stays healthy and that it's structured in a way that they can bail in a couple of years if he's not working out.
Solder is not an all pro like Norwell, but LT is the second most important position on offense after QB, and he's a good one.
I like the additions thus far, all of them. They are all adults! Some of have said the team needed to get younger. I don't think so. The Giants were already pretty young across the roster. They need leaders and good teammates.
It also really depends on how the giants view Webb, if they view him as a guy who can take over they can go with Nelson, if not you almost have to go with a qb...
I hope they trade down and get beast available player and try to get a haul of picks from a team desperate..
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
I am not saying it is a 1 year deal but what was Vernon first year cap hit
How do you think eagles keep signing people when they are right against the cap?
Stop worrying about the cap, teams know how to work the cap and giants have 1 of the best in the business
EXACTLY! Who the hell cares how much money the team spends?? Its not as if the Giants have a history of being cap strapped and unable to manuver like they need to, financially speaking. That should tell you they know what they're doing when it comes to money. Don't worry about it. If Solder has a good season none of you will care about the money. Because we're all fickle as f.
are expecting a complete roster overhaul, they will look at almost anything less as a half-assed approach.
I've been saying this for awhile now, but there are no more lengthy rebuilds in the NFL anymore. With the cap - you only have windows to work in - and in those windows, you try to shore up areas of weakness, add depth when possible and hope injuries don't wipe out all of that work.
Each team basically does a derivative of that - which is why failing at a position or positions hurts so much.
As far as this franchise is concerned, we did a house cleaning. New GM. New coach. New coordinators. And the changes are still coming. That's about as much of an overhaul as one can reasonably expect.
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
No they aren't.
A good portion will be a SB, but they probably had to guarantee salary for years 1 and 2.
Assume a $25M SB and $10M in guaranteed salary in years 1 and 2. Over 4 years, that is a prorated SB of just over $6M per. After year two, there is only about $12M left. The Giants could probably cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. If he lasts 3 years, they would likely have little in the way of a cap hit when cut.
RE: RE: RE: Highest paid position is all agent talk
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
I am not saying it is a 1 year deal but what was Vernon first year cap hit
How do you think eagles keep signing people when they are right against the cap?
Stop worrying about the cap, teams know how to work the cap and giants have 1 of the best in the business
I understand the cap plenty, it's fluid but there are restrictions. I don't think we're close enough to be making roster decisions just for the next year or two. It's precisely why I don't like this deal, we will start to regret it when we should theoretically be in position to actually compete and be able to use that money. Giving into our lack of leverage and committing to a very dangerous contract is clear indicator on where our priorities lie. It's one that I don't agree with it.
I'm not going to continue to piss on everybody's cornflakes so I'll leave it at that. I don't bitch about every deal, but this one is a little unsettling to me.
stuck with manning for another year maybe two. bad move.
Not true at all. If the Giants are going to invest in a QB with the 2nd pick they will obviously want to protect the kid. I don't think this has anything to do with Eli's future. Norwell was clearly Plan A with Solder being the fallback option.
Seriously. How do they get out of this mess? They don't have an o-line either all of a sudden. Only tackle is Waddle. I know they went all in this year but they failed spectacularly to the damn Eagles.
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
No they aren't.
A good portion will be a SB, but they probably had to guarantee salary for years 1 and 2.
Assume a $25M SB and $10M in guaranteed salary in years 1 and 2. Over 4 years, that is a prorated SB of just over $6M per. After year two, there is only about $12M left. The Giants could probably cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. If he lasts 3 years, they would likely have little in the way of a cap hit when cut.
Thank Rich. I really appreciate your posts on cap hits and contracts. Good stuff.
are expecting a complete roster overhaul, they will look at almost anything less as a half-assed approach.
I've been saying this for awhile now, but there are no more lengthy rebuilds in the NFL anymore. With the cap - you only have windows to work in - and in those windows, you try to shore up areas of weakness, add depth when possible and hope injuries don't wipe out all of that work.
Each team basically does a derivative of that - which is why failing at a position or positions hurts so much.
As far as this franchise is concerned, we did a house cleaning. New GM. New coach. New coordinators. And the changes are still coming. That's about as much of an overhaul as one can reasonably expect.
I'm assuming you're excluding the Browns (and a few other teams as well) from your belief that "there are no more lengthy rebuilds in the NFL anymore."
The cap keeps rising, Eli all most likely be gone after this year or best so you are talking a qb on a rookie deal and giants still coujld cut Marshall and Harris to create more room if need be..
"No free agent wants to come to the Giants"
"Our line is doomed"
"Team will be lucky to win six games next year"
"Our new GM is worthless"
Sign Solder:
"He's overpaid"
"He wasn't that good"
"Our new GM was taken to the cleaners by Solder's agent"
"This is just like when Reese signed Vernon"
"Our new GM is worthless"
If little Bill thought Solder was good enough to protect Brady's blind side that's good enough for me. And the Giants were always going to have to pay top dollar for his services b/c of Reese's horrible OL drafting.
RE: RE: RE: Highest paid position is all agent talk
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
No they aren't.
A good portion will be a SB, but they probably had to guarantee salary for years 1 and 2.
Assume a $25M SB and $10M in guaranteed salary in years 1 and 2. Over 4 years, that is a prorated SB of just over $6M per. After year two, there is only about $12M left. The Giants could probably cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. If he lasts 3 years, they would likely have little in the way of a cap hit when cut.
That's 12.5 million in dead money year 3 the way you have that outlined. 6+ million in dead money isn't something sneeze at either on the final year. Unless it's a really wonky structure, they're committing to him. You can still like the signing but that much is undeniable.
You want the team to get better but you expect it to happen by pinching pennies.
Could not agree more. If they had not signed him they would have said you give him a million more to fix the line. Do what you have to. You can never win. This is a solid signing. This makes me think that in order to OBJ and Collins signed next year either JPP or Vernon has to go. I am guessing DE will be looked at strongly this draft.
We're not out of options. I hope this works out, but that's a ridiculous contract for a guy who is a "solid" left tackle.
The other option is you don't pay that contract, move on from Eli, and rebuild the team.
This whole thing feels like a half-ass approach again.
We're starting to feel like the Knicks.
Yep... my sentiments exactly!
I view it the opposite way.
The Giants need a functional OL, regardless of who is QB. With a legit at least league average- likely more- LT and a big powerful RT (Flowers), the OL is well on its way to being MUCH better. Draft at least on interior OL with another OG in FA, and this is a decent, maybe not exciting, OL- which is a VAST improvement over the last several years.
Further, this really is not a long term deal. The Giants appear to believe that Wheeler has long-term potential. As such, you get a guy who can teach him the ropes while the young guy learns. When young guy is ready, old guy leaves (likely in 2 years).
Draft a GREAT RB in Barkley and get the OL discussed above- and the focus can shift to defense. Keep in mind that the Eagles were 7-9 two years in a row before winning the Super Bowl. Don't discount luck, health and a little talent as being major game changers.
stuck with manning for another year maybe two. bad move.
Not true at all. If the Giants are going to invest in a QB with the 2nd pick they will obviously want to protect the kid. I don't think this has anything to do with Eli's future. Norwell was clearly Plan A with Solder being the fallback option.
The #Giants are signing LT Nate Solder to a 4-year deal worth $62M, source said, with $35M guaranteed. The highest paid OL in the NFL. 💰💰💰
OOF! That's a big enchalada to swallow every year.
But that's the price you pay for years of bad drafts and FA signings.
That's not really fair - if Flowers had turned out to be a very good LT, that's pretty much what they'd have had to pay him, too. That's just what a FA LT costs, whether it's your own FA or someone else's. Unless you're going to draft a new LT every 4-5 years, you end up having to commit some significant dollars to the position at some point.
In addition to his physical traits that were vital to the Pats offensive success, @soldernate provided 6 8 and 320 pounds (and more) worth of character and leadership. A big loss, on and off the field. Best to him and his family.
We're not out of options. I hope this works out, but that's a ridiculous contract for a guy who is a "solid" left tackle.
The other option is you don't pay that contract, move on from Eli, and rebuild the team.
This whole thing feels like a half-ass approach again.
We're starting to feel like the Knicks.
I would have been fine with the total tear down you are advocating. But DG and Shurmur want to keep Eli for another two years while they develop another QB, either Webb or a draft pick. That necessitates finding and overpaying for a LT. As I said, I think the contract is too much, but understand why they did it.
If the @Giants are keeping Eli and/or drafting a QB for the future, they needed a reliable LT. They got that in Solder. Probably had to overpay for his services but when you have that glaring need, thats what it costs.
In addition to his physical traits that were vital to the Pats offensive success, @soldernate provided 6 8 and 320 pounds (and more) worth of character and leadership. A big loss, on and off the field. Best to him and his family.
Character and leadership are two things that were missing in this unit last year. Evidenced by Flowers and Hart choosing not to play at the end of the season.
at least there shouldnt be. Cleveland hasnt been rebuilding anything ell these years, they've just been incompetent.
In a sport where every team is so vulnerable to injury and we see that guys like Brady, Rodgers, Watt or Beckham can go down in a moment's notice. There really is no point in ever taking the approach to not win now.
Furthermore, what does signing Solder have to do with the overall future of this franchise. That decision will be made when the Giants are on the clock at #2. We know they are going with Eli in 2018. Beyond that, everything is still on the table. The offensive coordinator is at Oklahoma's pro day watching Baker Mayfield as we speak. They could also take the consensus best player in the draft (Barkley) at #2 and turn to Davis Webb after Eli.
Bottom line, the Giants are trying to field the best team they can for 2018 (as they should) and they're not mortgaging any part of their future to do so.
Whether its stay with Eli and Webb, go with a college QB, or draft Barkley, its all the same. Our OL stinks and it has to improve. We paid market rate for the best LT available. I am good with this, he'll be our best LT in a long time.
We're not out of options. I hope this works out, but that's a ridiculous contract for a guy who is a "solid" left tackle.
The other option is you don't pay that contract, move on from Eli, and rebuild the team.
This whole thing feels like a half-ass approach again.
We're starting to feel like the Knicks.
It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
and draft a beast OL and RB in rds 1 and 2. Nelson and CHubb/Guice/Michel/Rogers or Barkley and the best of the OL in the 2nd. I know Fluker isn't a good pass blocker but he brings an attitude the team seemed to thrive off of. I want the Giants to become a run first team, would like to see more 2 TE sets. If we become a dominant run team, PA will mean something and we can get the best of what Eli has left since it seems that is what we are going with. I really wanted a QB at 2 but it seems we are going this way. I am hopeful Shurmur can get as much or more out of Webb than he did Foles and Keenum.
Character and leadership are two things that were missing in this unit last year. Evidenced by Flowers and Hart choosing not to play at the end of the season.
also in Flowers and Hart not participation in Olineman extra-ciricular activities
The #Giants are signing LT Nate Solder to a 4-year deal worth $62M, source said, with $35M guaranteed. The highest paid OL in the NFL. 💰💰💰
OOF! That's a big enchalada to swallow every year.
But that's the price you pay for years of bad drafts and FA signings.
That's not really fair - if Flowers had turned out to be a very good LT, that's pretty much what they'd have had to pay him, too. That's just what a FA LT costs, whether it's your own FA or someone else's. Unless you're going to draft a new LT every 4-5 years, you end up having to commit some significant dollars to the position at some point.
I think it's very fair. Flowers is the only OL they have on the roster that is even worth trying to develop. And he's on his last chance. Re the OL, whether high picks, mid round picks, low picks, Big $$ or low $$ FA signings, all of them SUCKED under Reese/Ross and now they are paying for it.
If the @Giants are keeping Eli and/or drafting a QB for the future, they needed a reliable LT. They got that in Solder. Probably had to overpay for his services but when you have that glaring need, thats what it costs.
Well said.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Highest paid position is all agent talk
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
No they aren't.
A good portion will be a SB, but they probably had to guarantee salary for years 1 and 2.
Assume a $25M SB and $10M in guaranteed salary in years 1 and 2. Over 4 years, that is a prorated SB of just over $6M per. After year two, there is only about $12M left. The Giants could probably cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. If he lasts 3 years, they would likely have little in the way of a cap hit when cut.
That's 12.5 million in dead money year 3 the way you have that outlined. 6+ million in dead money isn't something sneeze at either on the final year. Unless it's a really wonky structure, they're committing to him. You can still like the signing but that much is undeniable.
Since the contract appears has an AAV of over $15.5M, including the signing bonus, that likely means he pulls down over $10M annually. Cut after year two means that it "costs" $2.5M or less in cap space to cut.
You appear to be falling into the classic misunderstanding of the impact of dead money. Dead money is not added to the cap, but is money already ON the cap that can't be cut away.
In other words, if Solder has a $10M annual salary and about $6M annual SB hit, if cut after year 2, the Giants have to accelerate the remaining prorated SB of about $12M, but drop the $10M in salary- meaning a cap "hit" of $2.5M above what the cap impact already was. That is not likely to be substantial with annual cap increases averaging over $5M.
Tell me where 3-4 year rebuilds happen in the NFL? The Eagles revamped their roster after it was gutted in 2015 to a SB win in 17 with a rookie QB. The Giants can still draft a QB or transition to Webb while making shrewd moves.
and draft a beast OL and RB in rds 1 and 2. Nelson and CHubb/Guice/Michel/Rogers or Barkley and the best of the OL in the 2nd. I know Fluker isn't a good pass blocker but he brings an attitude the team seemed to thrive off of. I want the Giants to become a run first team, would like to see more 2 TE sets. If we become a dominant run team, PA will mean something and we can get the best of what Eli has left since it seems that is what we are going with. I really wanted a QB at 2 but it seems we are going this way. I am hopeful Shurmur can get as much or more out of Webb than he did Foles and Keenum.
I'm good with either of those scenarios.
RE: RE: RE: Highest paid position is all agent talk
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
No they aren't.
A good portion will be a SB, but they probably had to guarantee salary for years 1 and 2.
Assume a $25M SB and $10M in guaranteed salary in years 1 and 2. Over 4 years, that is a prorated SB of just over $6M per. After year two, there is only about $12M left. The Giants could probably cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. If he lasts 3 years, they would likely have little in the way of a cap hit when cut.
There still is a cap hit - the dead money takes away cap space no matter what. With the salary coming off the books, the team frees up space vs. keeping the player, but then they still have to replace that player.
It's not a major problem, especially because the cap continues to go up each year, so teams are more equipped to absorb dead money, but it's not totally correct to say there would be little to no cap hit.
Tell me where 3-4 year rebuilds happen in the NFL? The Eagles revamped their roster after it was gutted in 2015 to a SB win in 17 with a rookie QB. The Giants can still draft a QB or transition to Webb while making shrewd moves.
Wentz wasn't a rookie in 2017 and Foles won the SB. Just to nitpick.
I think a move down with the Browns/Jets/Bills would be a responsible thing to do, if the offers are there.
Adding a bunch of current and future 2nd/1st round picks is something that would go a long way in helping the 2019-2020 salary cap catch its breath and work off some of the hefty spending at the top of the roster that hasnt paid off.
I was fine with tearing it down now and taking the QB. Theyve clearly chosen not to go that way. Taking the top-of-the-draft QB now feels like it leaves them with one foot in the win and the other in the rebuild, with an extremely top-heavy set of contracts on the cap for the next 3 years.
The #Giants are signing LT Nate Solder to a 4-year deal worth $62M, source said, with $35M guaranteed. The highest paid OL in the NFL. 💰💰💰
OOF! That's a big enchalada to swallow every year.
But that's the price you pay for years of bad drafts and FA signings.
That's not really fair - if Flowers had turned out to be a very good LT, that's pretty much what they'd have had to pay him, too. That's just what a FA LT costs, whether it's your own FA or someone else's. Unless you're going to draft a new LT every 4-5 years, you end up having to commit some significant dollars to the position at some point.
I think it's very fair. Flowers is the only OL they have on the roster that is even worth trying to develop. And he's on his last chance. Re the OL, whether high picks, mid round picks, low picks, Big $$ or low $$ FA signings, all of them SUCKED under Reese/Ross and now they are paying for it.
You're missing the point. If Flowers had been good, they'd have given a comparable contract to him instead of Solder. That's just what LTs cost. Blaming the failed picks is silly - this is the price tag for a good LT when they reach FA, whether you draft them or another team does.
It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
An exciting young team that just went to the AFC Championship game while also playing in a state with no income tax?
I just feel like quality guards are easier to find in the mid part of the draft. Usually you have to use a premium pick to get a franchise left tackle. In this case we had to overpay but that is what happens in free agency. It is what it is.
I think a move down with the Browns/Jets/Bills would be a responsible thing to do, if the offers are there.
Adding a bunch of current and future 2nd/1st round picks is something that would go a long way in helping the 2019-2020 salary cap catch its breath and work off some of the hefty spending at the top of the roster that hasnt paid off.
I was fine with tearing it down now and taking the QB. Theyve clearly chosen not to go that way. Taking the top-of-the-draft QB now feels like it leaves them with one foot in the win and the other in the rebuild, with an extremely top-heavy set of contracts on the cap for the next 3 years.
Eli's contract coming off the books really soon will help alleviate a good percentage of the heftiness of our cap situation.
One draft failure after another until you have to pay through the nose to get decent players like Solder, Snacks, Oliver Vernon and Jackrabbit.
Not a good blueprint for building long term success.
Feels like a desperation move in the hope that Eli can lead
them to the promise land with his blind side covered in
decent (not great) fashion.
EF, couldn't cut it @ LT, and its a gamble 1-2 of the top 5 will be available at our spot. Scary move, but desperate times.... It really breaks down to a 2 years and a couple of $$$ to close out the guarantee; the actual structure may be better than what we see, given bonus/incentives structure.
Oh, well... throw the dice on Eli and see what comes up.
is some kind of terrible indictment of this franchise.
It is what it is. The sun has still risen in the Meadowlands these past few days without Andrew Norwell.
So a guy made a decision based most likely on a younger nucleus and went to a team that just played in the AFC title game. Maybe he liked the tax advantages? Big deal.
It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
An exciting young team that just went to the AFC Championship game while also playing in a state with no income tax?
Yeah. Versus a NY Giants team that supposedly isn't that far away? Vs. a Blake Bortles led team? Yes.
I think a move down with the Browns/Jets/Bills would be a responsible thing to do, if the offers are there.
Adding a bunch of current and future 2nd/1st round picks is something that would go a long way in helping the 2019-2020 salary cap catch its breath and work off some of the hefty spending at the top of the roster that hasnt paid off.
I was fine with tearing it down now and taking the QB. Theyve clearly chosen not to go that way. Taking the top-of-the-draft QB now feels like it leaves them with one foot in the win and the other in the rebuild, with an extremely top-heavy set of contracts on the cap for the next 3 years.
Eli's contract coming off the books really soon will help alleviate a good percentage of the heftiness of our cap situation.
Before FA it was reported that the Giants would have close to 70 million in cap room next year which includes the contracts of Eli, JPP, and Vernon. If the Giants cut Eli and JPP then that number goes over 90 million. Now obviously you have to add in this years free agent signings plus draft picks but with that the Giants should be able to extend Collins and Beckham and still have over 40 million in cap room.
It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
An exciting young team that just went to the AFC Championship game while also playing in a state with no income tax?
Yeah. Versus a NY Giants team that supposedly isn't that far away? Vs. a Blake Bortles led team? Yes.
Who gives a shit who the QB is when they're winning more games?
and made threads a few short months ago about being fans of a player more than they are the actual team. So, why take those fans serious to begin with?
It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
An exciting young team that just went to the AFC Championship game while also playing in a state with no income tax?
Yeah. Versus a NY Giants team that supposedly isn't that far away? Vs. a Blake Bortles led team? Yes.
Bortles was the #3 overall pick. Be careful what you wish for.
It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
An exciting young team that just went to the AFC Championship game while also playing in a state with no income tax?
Yeah. Versus a NY Giants team that supposedly isn't that far away? Vs. a Blake Bortles led team? Yes.
Who gives a shit who the QB is when they're winning more games?
Okay, take the Bortles aspect out of the equation.
Since the contract appears has an AAV of over $15.5M, including the signing bonus, that likely means he pulls down over $10M annually. Cut after year two means that it "costs" $2.5M or less in cap space to cut.
You appear to be falling into the classic misunderstanding of the impact of dead money. Dead money is not added to the cap, but is money already ON the cap that can't be cut away.
In other words, if Solder has a $10M annual salary and about $6M annual SB hit, if cut after year 2, the Giants have to accelerate the remaining prorated SB of about $12M, but drop the $10M in salary- meaning a cap "hit" of $2.5M above what the cap impact already was. That is not likely to be substantial with annual cap increases averaging over $5M.
No, I get it completely. The dead money is a sunk cost. I'm opposed to sinking that cost on a guy like Solder given the state of our franchise. This is why I'm not focused on the AAV and I only reacted when I saw the guaranteed money, which was about 10m more than I anticipated on a 4 year deal.
I'm not doing the happy dance that most are. Call me skeptical until we see him live and through the contract. Will he get away with the same level of holding he does in Foxboro? We'll see. He's better than we've had, but that's not saying much.
we just took the best available veteran left tackle off the market. Flowers kicks to RT, and you've bought yourself time to draft and groom another LT if it's not Wheeler.
is a very good move. it HAD to happen...he could be your LT for the next 3-5 years....when starting a young QB, you need to have that blindside secured...whether its manning in 2018 or webb or a rookie in 2019-2022 you need a guy to protect the blindside. i think its a good move. outside of him being a good LT, its one less hole and arguably fixes two if flowers performs better as a RT or RG.
two major areas of need were OT and LB and we have addressed both. corner next...
who has kidney cancer. It's a heart wrenching story. I was under the impression the Pats & Kraft were very instrumental in helping Solder manage his daily work like.
So it's very surprise - beyond being Brady's blind side protection - that Solder would leave...
First off, I am happy with the signing. It's a lot of money for Solder but it needed to be done.
Moves like this happen because *Cough Jerry Reese Cough* didn't know how to draft OLineman.
2/5 of the OL is complete...still need LG-RG-RT...Please no Flowers at RT! That move is Bobby Hart all over again! If Flowers couldn't block Elite RE's -- what makes you think he can block Elite LE's?
I would take a Tackle in the 3rd round and put him at RT.
First off, I am happy with the signing. It's a lot of money for Solder but it needed to be done.
Moves like this happen because *Cough Jerry Reese Cough* didn't know how to draft OLineman.
2/5 of the OL is complete...still need LG-RG-RT...Please no Flowers at RT! That move is Bobby Hart all over again! If Flowers couldn't block Elite RE's -- what makes you think he can block Elite LE's?
I would take a Tackle in the 3rd round and put him at RT.
IN GETTLEMAN I TRUST!
Flowers will get a shot at RT id say 2 of 5 are available
Foles was excellent in the NFCC game and SB but he wasn't that good outside of that.
He was terrible against OAK and DAL at the end of the reg season and really should have thrown a game-ending INT against ATL but it miraculously made it's way into Torrey Smith's hands and they wound up winning.
Funny how different the Foles narrative would have been if Keanu Neal had just caught the ball that Foles put right in his bread basket.
Barkley and best available G/C in round 2, allowing Shurmur to work with Webb.
or
Nelson (w/ trade down + picks), also allowing Shurmur to work with Webb and probably 2019 draft capital to make another run at QB if necessary.
or
QB at 2, and address additional areas as needed.
They weren't as bad as 3-13 this past year. McAdoo was in over his head and they had a rotten locker room plus Beckham got hurt. Thankfully they are in position to bounce back and also transition from Eli.
Foles was excellent in the NFCC game and SB but he wasn't that good outside of that.
He was terrible against OAK and DAL at the end of the reg season and really should have thrown a game-ending INT against ATL but it miraculously made it's way into Torrey Smith's hands and they wound up winning.
Funny how different the Foles narrative would have been if Keanu Neal had just caught the ball that Foles put right in his bread basket.
What if Desean Jackson doesn't return that kick in 2010? Aaron Rodgers and the Packers miss the playoffs and never win the Superbowl.
What is Asante Samuel catches that high Eli throw in 42?
Foles was excellent in the NFCC game and SB but he wasn't that good outside of that.
He was terrible against OAK and DAL at the end of the reg season and really should have thrown a game-ending INT against ATL but it miraculously made it's way into Torrey Smith's hands and they wound up winning.
Funny how different the Foles narrative would have been if Keanu Neal had just caught the ball that Foles put right in his bread basket.
What if Desean Jackson doesn't return that kick in 2010? Aaron Rodgers and the Packers miss the playoffs and never win the Superbowl.
What is Asante Samuel catches that high Eli throw in 42?
That's sports.
i agree but dont compare that dropped INT to returning a kick for a score...one is making a play the other is missing a play a third grader would have made....samuel was a closer comparison but it was a VERY high ball and along the sidelines, the atlanta/philly play was as easy an INT as you will see in the NFL
I guess teams always overpay in free agency. That's just the way
it is. There are very few bargains. But at least we got the left tackle situation under control for a few more years. Solder was the guy I wanted. He isn't as good at what he does as guard we got outbid on, but he plays a more important position.
I think you're mad that you've been saying QB at 2 is a stone cold
think you either move on from Eli right now, or try and build a team around him for his last few years. I understand either approach. A third option is to keep Eli as the QB for the next two seasons, but not make expensive signings like this, and instead try and draft players who will really start to be productive after he is gone. But that means Eli would continue to be pummeled, and the offense would likely still be moribund as OL draft picks develop. DG may feel some pressure not to let that happen given last season. A decent LT also makes Barkley even better.
one backup QB wins the SB, after of course Wentz who was on his way to league MVP got them there, and everyone acts as if that is the norm. We don't need to draft a QB Foles won the SB so that means Webb is a lock to win one as he was a 3rd round pick too!!
who has kidney cancer. It's a heart wrenching story. I was under the impression the Pats & Kraft were very instrumental in helping Solder manage his daily work like.
So it's very surprise - beyond being Brady's blind side protection - that Solder would leave...
All true BUT: Belichick might feel bad for his kid, but that won't stop him from saying see ya.
Foles was excellent in the NFCC game and SB but he wasn't that good outside of that.
He was terrible against OAK and DAL at the end of the reg season and really should have thrown a game-ending INT against ATL but it miraculously made it's way into Torrey Smith's hands and they wound up winning.
Funny how different the Foles narrative would have been if Keanu Neal had just caught the ball that Foles put right in his bread basket.
What if Desean Jackson doesn't return that kick in 2010? Aaron Rodgers and the Packers miss the playoffs and never win the Superbowl.
What is Asante Samuel catches that high Eli throw in 42?
That's sports.
If Samuel catches the ball, he comes down out of bounds and it doesn't matter.
Anyway - yes, it's sports - I get it. If Mike Carey blows the whistle, the helmet catch never happens, etc, etc..
My point is - Foles was fortunate to have the opportunity to continue playing and that the narrative on him would have probably been much different if Neal had caught a gimmie INT.
Up to that point, Foles really hadn't played anywhere near as well as Wentz.
RE: I think you're mad that you've been saying QB at 2 is a stone cold
lock for months, and every day we get closer and closer to the draft, it's looking less likely that that could happen.
Never said it was a stone-cold lock. But like 98% of the board, think it will be a mistake. But this is what you do because you're an ass-hurt clown that is a bigger fan of a player than the team. So, it's no surprise you're more concerned for a player over the actual team.
one backup QB wins the SB, after of course Wentz who was on his way to league MVP got them there, and everyone acts as if that is the norm. We don't need to draft a QB Foles won the SB so that means Webb is a lock to win one as he was a 3rd round pick too!!
Amazingly awful logic, isn't it? But this is the same guy who thought Domenik Hixon was going to be a great replacement for Plaxico Burress, so..
We have NO ONE on the line making real cash. Eli will be off the books in a year or two and most of our potential offensive line starters will come from the draft making scraps in comparison.
For the Giants this was a must. Hopefully he adds veteran leadership, championship pedigree and stability. That will work for me.
In what the Giants look like they are doing and that is commit to Eli for 2 more years, they had to sign this guy, for better or worse. I would say drafting Barkley seems like the next move, if the Browns pass on him.
Defensively, they may think they can get back to the 2016 production with a new coach and improved health.
I just get the sense, they think they can get back into the playoff hunt next season.
My wild guess is that by signing Hyde, the Browns signaled they were targeting a very specific QB w/ #1 and weren't sure Barkley would be there @ 4. Hyde is insurance.
That would open the door for the NYG to grab Barkley if Cleveland "stole" their favorite QB (if they have one that qualifies - see "QB Hell")
Same. Kudos to you for being able to see past your fanhood.
And it doesnt mean its the end of ELi. Its a chance to go from 1 franchise guy to another. If Eli plays well this year, great. He still has another year. But you cannot pass on this opportunity. Because if we do, and we do have a good year - we may not get another opportunity to get a guy this high. And leaving it in the hands of Webb is very risky.
How else are the Giants supposed to tackle (no pun intended) the Oline problem? It seems to me that there are only a limited number of assets you can throw into an Offensive line these days.
Solder over the course of his career has performed better than any lineman that was on the Giants last year - and is a leader in the mold that has shaped the Giants in the past at a position that is the most important position on the line.
Even at the 10-15 range he's far, far better than what we have and/or had.
You can continue to beef about how the Giants wasted their resources to get us into this position - but it's my view that solid moves being made to correct what has happened can still be appreciated. It makes no sense to admonish a new FO for the past mistakes of the Giants and spend all this time worrying about it and throwing it into the face of the future. Fact is this is a positive step, and Solder is a football guy - and fits the definition of a Hog-Molly. Booyah!
As far as OV and JPP go -- I didn't think they were bad signings when they were signed -- and I don't think they were bad signings now. Last year was a chit storm of epic proportions, but those are two very good players in my opinion, and they may perform better with a different coach in a different scheme, and now with 2 key pieces added next to them, and a changed atmosphere. In any event -- their signings were not only necessary when they were signed and made an immediate impact -- but their contracts were shrewdly designed so that the Giants could cut bait after the third year if needed. I also don't think you can make any kind of proper evaluation of their value based on last year.
The Giants are likely to be a mediocre team for the next several years. The way you fix it is the old fashioned way... draft well, make shrewd free agent moves.
The Giants are not a Nat Solder away from competing for the NFL title.
Same. Kudos to you for being able to see past your fanhood.
And it doesnt mean its the end of ELi. Its a chance to go from 1 franchise guy to another. If Eli plays well this year, great. He still has another year. But you cannot pass on this opportunity. Because if we do, and we do have a good year - we may not get another opportunity to get a guy this high. And leaving it in the hands of Webb is very risky.
That's how I feel, too. But supposedly, according to someone else, I think it's a "stone-cold lock" that we are, when in reality, it's just what we should do. Even if we're bad the next year or so, I don't know if we're going to get this high in the draft anytime soon.
It reaks of protecting Eli for the final 2 years of his goodbye tour at the expense of future success.
Precisely... very short term thinking.
Huh?
The O line is the weakest part of the team and LT is a big part of that. With or without Eli, they needed to upgrade LT. How does this in any way affect our future sucesses negatively?
The Giants are likely to be a mediocre team for the next several years. The way you fix it is the old fashioned way... draft well, make shrewd free agent moves.
The Giants are not a Nat Solder away from competing for the NFL title.
If I'm the Eagles GM, I'm laughing right now.
I don't understand this logic.
No individual player is going to move the needle enough on their own - does that mean we shouldn't sign anyone?
Solder can still be part of a solution. This shouldn't take 5 years to fix. If it does, Gettleman is doing a poor job.
The Giants are likely to be a mediocre team for the next several years. The way you fix it is the old fashioned way... draft well, make shrewd free agent moves.
The Giants are not a Nat Solder away from competing for the NFL title.
If I'm the Eagles GM, I'm laughing right now.
You dont stay in medocrity unless you are poorly run and coached. We can easily be a playoff team next year. This rebuilding process is just a nonsense thing. We were 11-5 two years ago. We have all pro players in Snakcs, Collins, OBJ. We have pro bowl potential players in Engram, Ogletree, OV, JJ. Yeah the OL is a mess, but DG will find a way to fix it. We have weapons on the outside. We have a defense than can perform.
And last but not least we dont have McAdoo, Quinn, and Reese around anymore to fuck up the process. Losign those 3 puts us multiple steps forward to begin with. If Shurmur can tweak the offense and Betcher can get the guys motivated defenisviely - we can compete. Shot, we had the SB champions beat 2x last year if not for f'n special teams.
The Giants are likely to be a mediocre team for the next several years. The way you fix it is the old fashioned way... draft well, make shrewd free agent moves.
The Giants are not a Nat Solder away from competing for the NFL title.
If I'm the Eagles GM, I'm laughing right now.
They are making shrewd moves. Attempting to sign Andrew Norwell is smart. Signing Solder is smart. They were just expensive. Something had to be done in the short term so that Eli Manning or whoever is under Center next year doesn't die. The players being signed now are the present. Righting the ship has to start somewhere.
The way you get into difficult shape is keep signing players to vastly overpaid contracts. Solder is a solid player. The Giants are not paying him like he is an elite player. He's not. He's a guy who gives up sacks. He's not a shut-down left tackle.
You want to know why the Giants suck? Because their draft picks have been so bad that they haven't bothered to re-sign any of them after their original contracts are over. This has been going on almost a decade now. And when we finally have one we want to keep (Hankins), we say we can't afford it and then have to draft his replacement.
The Giants are not going to get better due to free agency. They have to draft better and not allocate the bulk of their salary cap to about 6-10 free agents.
The way you get into difficult shape is keep signing players to vastly overpaid contracts. Solder is a solid player. The Giants are not paying him like he is an elite player. He's not. He's a guy who gives up sacks. He's not a shut-down left tackle.
You want to know why the Giants suck? Because their draft picks have been so bad that they haven't bothered to re-sign any of them after their original contracts are over. This has been going on almost a decade now. And when we finally have one we want to keep (Hankins), we say we can't afford it and then have to draft his replacement.
The Giants are not going to get better due to free agency. They have to draft better and not allocate the bulk of their salary cap to about 6-10 free agents.
I dont think anyone is disagreeing. But you can get better with FA, and the fact was that we got better in FA.
One of the big factors people are saying we didnt get Norwell was because JAX is better. Well lets start getting better players. Through FA and the draft. Solder is a solid start. Just keep going with it now DG.
The way you get into difficult shape is keep signing players to vastly overpaid contracts. Solder is a solid player. The Giants are not paying him like he is an elite player. He's not. He's a guy who gives up sacks. He's not a shut-down left tackle.
You want to know why the Giants suck? Because their draft picks have been so bad that they haven't bothered to re-sign any of them after their original contracts are over. This has been going on almost a decade now. And when we finally have one we want to keep (Hankins), we say we can't afford it and then have to draft his replacement.
The Giants are not going to get better due to free agency. They have to draft better and not allocate the bulk of their salary cap to about 6-10 free agents.
These are all correct. But LT is a point of failure. They can struggle at other positions and get by, but not having a LT can single handedly torpedo an offense.
I don't think anyone is thrilled, but this guys them time to get their drafting right and develop those guys over the next 2-3 years.
QB, WR, DE, CB, and LT above all else. They will spend big on these positions to get their guy. As Eric said the problem has been the poor drafting that supplements these highly paid positions. For the Giants to turn around they need Gettleman to draft much better than his predecessor.
The way you get into difficult shape is keep signing players to vastly overpaid contracts. Solder is a solid player. The Giants are not paying him like he is an elite player. He's not. He's a guy who gives up sacks. He's not a shut-down left tackle.
You want to know why the Giants suck? Because their draft picks have been so bad that they haven't bothered to re-sign any of them after their original contracts are over. This has been going on almost a decade now. And when we finally have one we want to keep (Hankins), we say we can't afford it and then have to draft his replacement.
The Giants are not going to get better due to free agency. They have to draft better and not allocate the bulk of their salary cap to about 6-10 free agents.
You have to sign players in FA - you can't build a team exclusively through the draft.
Yes, we need to draft better. Reese and Ross bombed several drafts and that's why we're in this position.
But we need offensive line help no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's Eli Manning, Davis Webb, or a rookie from the 2018 class. We need a better offensive line. Whether you think Solder is elite or not, he's much better than what we've been putting out there and as someone put it before, if he was good enough for Tom Brady, he's good enough for us.
Reese had been treating the DT position a specific way his entire time here - I look at Joseph as a cap casualty more than Hankins. NYG didn't seem like they were dead set on retaining Hankins.
Solder makes the Giants better. The contract isn't the end of the world.
but with Eli in place at the moment, and no real plan to start ripping the roster apart, they're going to load up as best as they can and go for it until there's no option but to rip it apart.
Please explain the alternative. Not sign any free agents and go into the season with Ereck Flowers, John Greco, Brett Jones, John Jerry, and Chad Wheeler protecting the QB? Should we just tank the 2018 season so we get another high pick in the 2019 draft?
Do you think they'll fill every hole with the draft? They only have what, 5 picks? And you can't expect to hit on all of those.
But maybe in run blocking more than pass blocking.
I guess few have noticed that, for most of last season, Flowers was among the league leaders at LT in giving up the fewest pressures. Heck, even an eyeball test confirmed that. We didn't hear his name much regarding pressures and sacks for most of last season, did we? (Penalties might be another thing, not sure.)
But that improvement came at a price. Flowers was coached into setting up differently to cover rushes at the expense of his run blocking, which was not so much.
Solder does give up perhaps a few more pressures and sacks but is a solid run blocker.
So, maybe the best we can hope for (pre-draft) is Solder on the left, Flowers on the right...stand up, sit down, fight, fight fight!
one backup QB wins the SB, after of course Wentz who was on his way to league MVP got them there, and everyone acts as if that is the norm. We don't need to draft a QB Foles won the SB so that means Webb is a lock to win one as he was a 3rd round pick too!!
32 QBs have won 52 Super Bowls.
26 Super Bowls were won by QBs drafted early in round one.
4 were won by QBs drafted late in round one
22 were won by QBs drafted after the first round, or who were undrafted.
But now I think about it: DG is known for hiding hidden gems on the OL. That is much harder to do with finding a "diamond in the rough" LT, easier to do with guards. This move Solidifies LT, moves Flowers to his more natural RT position, and least makes me feel better about the tackle spots. Now DG can work his magic with the interior OL. If he does it right, we draft Barkley, and Eli and the offense get a spark from Shurmur's new plans/designs, I see no reason why this team doesn't have a shot at the playoffs.
Without a LT, I'm not sure what the hell we would have done. This is one of those rare instances it is worth it to overpay. It was basically what we had to do if we wanted any shot at being competitive this year.
arcarsenal, I totally agree they have to use free agency. But contrary to some popular opinion, the Giants have been extremely aggressive in free agency for years now and it hasn't worked out. I posted before the Solder signing that I would sit out this first week of spending and then bottom feed given our overall talent situation, our cap situation, and the free agent market. I would attempt to sign cheaper guys somewhere between the Solder's and Greco's of the NFL. $62M for Solder/half of which is guaranteed? Are you kidding me? That's QB money for a guy who has never been considered a stud.
Pepper... it seems to me that everything is revolving around Eli right now and I think that is exceptionally risky. The Stewart and Solder signings combined with the announcement that Eli is their guy tells me the Giants think Eli can still take them to the promised land. I think this is borderline delusional thinking.
Please explain the alternative. Not sign any free agents and go into the season with Ereck Flowers, John Greco, Brett Jones, John Jerry, and Chad Wheeler protecting the QB? Should we just tank the 2018 season so we get another high pick in the 2019 draft?
Do you think they'll fill every hole with the draft? They only have what, 5 picks? And you can't expect to hit on all of those.
You can't build a winner via FA. You can fill holes temporarily. Overpaying for avg to above avg won't solve the problem and creates problems down the line. And there's a pretty good chance they have another top 10 pick next year regardless.
The Giants are likely to be a mediocre team for the next several years. The way you fix it is the old fashioned way... draft well, make shrewd free agent moves.
The Giants are not a Nat Solder away from competing for the NFL title.
If I'm the Eagles GM, I'm laughing right now.
Eric - I think you need to look at Minnesota -- if you look there you will see that if you do plug in key holes your team can become quite competitive. That's not to say that the Giants shouldn't make shrewd moves in FA and draft well, in fact -- duh!! - but the facts are that there is some talent on this team now and some known holes. It sure as heck looks like those holes are being plugged up forcefully.
Beckham, Engram, Collins, Jack Rabbit, Snacks are solid Pro-bowl caliber players
OV, JPP, Tomlinson, Solder, Shepard, Oogletree, Ellison, DeOssie are in the next tier right behind them --
Jones, Gallman, Manning, Martin, Herlich, Halapio are solid if unspectacular
So your questions are Apple, Goodson, Thompson, A. Adams, Jerry, Perkins, J. Adams, Wheeler, Bizno, LG and WR#3
Sign Kicker and Punter and
Add a solid RB, 2 decent DBs and 2 soiid Guards in the Draft - and all of a sudden you just may have a solidly competitive team
arcarsenal, I totally agree they have to use free agency. But contrary to some popular opinion, the Giants have been extremely aggressive in free agency for years now and it hasn't worked out. I posted before the Solder signing that I would sit out this first week of spending and then bottom feed given our overall talent situation, our cap situation, and the free agent market. I would attempt to sign cheaper guys somewhere between the Solder's and Greco's of the NFL. $62M for Solder/half of which is guaranteed? Are you kidding me? That's QB money for a guy who has never been considered a stud.
Pepper... it seems to me that everything is revolving around Eli right now and I think that is exceptionally risky. The Stewart and Solder signings combined with the announcement that Eli is their guy tells me the Giants think Eli can still take them to the promised land. I think this is borderline delusional thinking.
Austin Howard is available. Not sure if Baltimore declining his option alters whether he counts for compensatory pick calculations.
The way you get into difficult shape is keep signing players to vastly overpaid contracts. Solder is a solid player. The Giants are not paying him like he is an elite player. He's not. He's a guy who gives up sacks. He's not a shut-down left tackle.
You want to know why the Giants suck? Because their draft picks have been so bad that they haven't bothered to re-sign any of them after their original contracts are over. This has been going on almost a decade now. And when we finally have one we want to keep (Hankins), we say we can't afford it and then have to draft his replacement.
The Giants are not going to get better due to free agency. They have to draft better and not allocate the bulk of their salary cap to about 6-10 free agents.
I can even name you Lival Joseph who should have been resigned... You resign Joseph you don't need to spend 10M a year for Snacks
Super Bowl contenders a year ago at this time??? Who thought the Giants were SB contenders in '07? Who thought the Giants would go 11-5 in 2016 - who thought they'd be 3-13 last after the 2017 draft and FA period???
Heck, I recall Eric posting last Summer that it was the best roster the Giants had put together in years.
Injuries and Locker Room issues (McAdoo failure, along with stubborn offensive tendencies) did this team in last year.
A few good signings, drafting 2nd in each of the first 5 rounds, and some luck on the injury front, and this group can win the division.
Did they overpay? Sure, but how many years can you stick with Flowers at LT. There were no other options. Should have signed Whitworth, but too late now. Although Norwell might be a better player, there are plenty of good interior lineman available via the draft and FA.
arcarsenal, I totally agree they have to use free agency. But contrary to some popular opinion, the Giants have been extremely aggressive in free agency for years now and it hasn't worked out. I posted before the Solder signing that I would sit out this first week of spending and then bottom feed given our overall talent situation, our cap situation, and the free agent market. I would attempt to sign cheaper guys somewhere between the Solder's and Greco's of the NFL. $62M for Solder/half of which is guaranteed? Are you kidding me? That's QB money for a guy who has never been considered a stud.
Pepper... it seems to me that everything is revolving around Eli right now and I think that is exceptionally risky. The Stewart and Solder signings combined with the announcement that Eli is their guy tells me the Giants think Eli can still take them to the promised land. I think this is borderline delusional thinking.
I think they had to be aggressive and get a starting-caliber offensive lineman.
I don't think we're going to make any other splashes. Every other move will be smaller-scale like Stewart/Martin.
But it seems like fixing the OL is a major priority and needs to be. Putting just one solid piece on it like this has a domino effect and benefits the rest of the line.
I expect Gettleman to spend an additional pick or two on the offensive line - whether it's Nelson early on or Hernandez in the 2nd.
The reason why being aggressive in FA hasn't worked for us in recent years is because we're not supplementing the free agents with the young talent.
And in 2016 - it did kind of work. Winning 11 games did happen and a lot of it was on the shoulders of those players we signed via FA.
Better drafting is the single most important component here. If Gettleman doesn't hit on more picks than Reese did, we're doomed no matter what.
Time will provide the answers to all these questions what maybe 8 games then we can see if we have a 15 mil dollar LT or JAG? Don't worry be Happy they all wanted DG to spend his money well he did now it's in the hands of the gods.
Those saying "roster in shambles" yet opposing FA's are confusing
To fix a roster in shambles you sign and draft better players. That's what Gettleman is doing. How else would you prefer they upgrade the LT position for the next few years? Drafting Nelson at #2 doesn't solve LT. And adding Solder doesn't stop them from drafting Nelson. The most future forward move possible would be drafting a QB and Solder makes that an infinitely easier proposition.
The OL needs to be rebuilt. Gettleman went hard for the 2 best OL in FA.
The lockerroom needs to be cleansed. He let almost half the roster walk out the door without even attempting to resign them and brought in 3 former pro bowlers with high character.
I really don't understand all the griping. What would everyone prefer he do? If you cut Eli and don't sign any overpriced veterans you just have that many more holes to fill with undrafted free agents. When has that ever worked?
We draft him AFTER we trade down and get extra picks. I just believe that we really need to build up the OL and signing Solder is a solid move, but not an elite move by any means.
Solder-Allen-Jones-Flowers-UFA (TBD) perhaps?
once gettleman was brought in I don't know what people expected
he wasn't going to be in for a multi year rebuild...he is old he was always going to sign FA's and try to make us competitive as soon as possible. This isn't a san fran /john lynch type situation even though I wasn't opposed to that. If we were planning for the future we wouldn't went with a younger up and coming GM like Louis Riddick or something like that.
Once gettleman was hired he probably convinced Mara that he could win and win with Eli...Mara wants to rebound after last year so I don't know what you expected if you didn't think we weren't going to make another run with Eli.
The dilemma here is what Fatman alluded to before... is the notion that teams rebuild in today's NFL outdated? Many would argue yes. Perhaps I'm a product of my past. But sometimes the only way to get better is to take your lumps and just build through the draft. I'm all for finding a placeholder at left tackle. I'm not for making Solder the highest paid OL in the history of the NFL.
My thinking is this. The Giants are not a year or two away. How old is Eli in two years? And how likely is it he will be a better and not worse player in two years?
This reeks of the old Wellington Mara bandaid approach of the 1970s that Wellington himself later said was a huge mistake.
The NFL Champion Eagles are in the NFC East. We have to chase them by getting better than them. To me, it starts at QB. Patch-working around Eli seems desperate. It suggests to me John Mara is more worried about just being "decent" on the field again.
maybe the fans should take some blame. At 2-9, McAdoo wanted to take an honest look at QB and was absolutely ridiculed. The further I get from the Eli saga, the more I think it was the right move and was completely overblown. Sadly, the Giants may still be reacting to that.
The dilemma here is what Fatman alluded to before... is the notion that teams rebuild in today's NFL outdated? Many would argue yes. Perhaps I'm a product of my past. But sometimes the only way to get better is to take your lumps and just build through the draft. I'm all for finding a placeholder at left tackle. I'm not for making Solder the highest paid OL in the history of the NFL.
My thinking is this. The Giants are not a year or two away. How old is Eli in two years? And how likely is it he will be a better and not worse player in two years?
This reeks of the old Wellington Mara bandaid approach of the 1970s that Wellington himself later said was a huge mistake.
The NFL Champion Eagles are in the NFC East. We have to chase them by getting better than them. To me, it starts at QB. Patch-working around Eli seems desperate. It suggests to me John Mara is more worried about just being "decent" on the field again.
Yep. We're 6 years into a lost decade already and the patchwork approach is what helped get them there.
The dilemma here is what Fatman alluded to before... is the notion that teams rebuild in today's NFL outdated? Many would argue yes. Perhaps I'm a product of my past. But sometimes the only way to get better is to take your lumps and just build through the draft. I'm all for finding a placeholder at left tackle. I'm not for making Solder the highest paid OL in the history of the NFL.
My thinking is this. The Giants are not a year or two away. How old is Eli in two years? And how likely is it he will be a better and not worse player in two years?
This reeks of the old Wellington Mara bandaid approach of the 1970s that Wellington himself later said was a huge mistake.
The NFL Champion Eagles are in the NFC East. We have to chase them by getting better than them. To me, it starts at QB. Patch-working around Eli seems desperate. It suggests to me John Mara is more worried about just being "decent" on the field again.
maybe the fans should take some blame. At 2-9, McAdoo wanted to take an honest look at QB and was absolutely ridiculed. The further I get from the Eli saga, the more I think it was the right move and was completely overblown. Sadly, the Giants may still be reacting to that.
He was ridiculed because of which QB he chose (Smith).
The Eagles won 4 games in 2012 and then went 10-6 the very next year. That's a huge swing.
They were 7-9 in 2015 and 2016 and then won the Super Bowl last year.
Look at Carolina. Their records fluctuate wildly. Last 5 seasons:
11-5
6-10
15-1
7-8-1
12-4
I don't believe major long-term rebuilds are a necessity. I do believe drafting well IS a necessity.
It's not out of the realm of possibilities that NYG are competitive again in as little as a year or two. It happens every year.
I don't want them to do make short-term mistakes at the cost of long-term success - but I'm not really seeing that here.
I think Solder helps now, and helps down the road.
We have to fix this line. Sitting on it and not signing anyone doesn't get us any closer to doing that and it's not realistic to expect to build the entire thing through the draft.
arcarsenal, I totally agree they have to use free agency. But contrary to some popular opinion, the Giants have been extremely aggressive in free agency for years now and it hasn't worked out. I posted before the Solder signing that I would sit out this first week of spending and then bottom feed given our overall talent situation, our cap situation, and the free agent market. I would attempt to sign cheaper guys somewhere between the Solder's and Greco's of the NFL. $62M for Solder/half of which is guaranteed? Are you kidding me? That's QB money for a guy who has never been considered a stud.
Pepper... it seems to me that everything is revolving around Eli right now and I think that is exceptionally risky. The Stewart and Solder signings combined with the announcement that Eli is their guy tells me the Giants think Eli can still take them to the promised land. I think this is borderline delusional thinking.
There are countless examples of teams winning SB's thanks to aggressive FA acquisitions - including 2007/2012. Denver, NE, and even Philly this past year. The key is having a management team/coaching staff that has a plan to strategically get production out of those signings. Gettleman was hired 5 minutes ago, it's a little soon to judge how his plan is going.
maybe the fans should take some blame. At 2-9, McAdoo wanted to take an honest look at QB and was absolutely ridiculed. The further I get from the Eli saga, the more I think it was the right move and was completely overblown. Sadly, the Giants may still be reacting to that.
It was the right move. It was the way it was handled. It was a PR nightmare. Mara wasn't even present. A teary-eyed Manning was left alone in front of his locker with players laughing around him. Reese nowhere to be found too. McAdoo made the announcement matter-of-factly.
Giants got hammered. And made the situation worse by back-tracking.
This is the type of shit that has me worried about the way the franchise is being run right now.
Coughlin would have moved into the front office yet Mara could not handle that...
He wanted Coughlin to sssume a feel-good role in the front office , with an opinion about personnel but no direct say. Given the circumstances , Coughlin would never accept it . Reese got another chance . It didnt work out .
Have you all been in denial? The Giants were going to try to win the second they kept eli. I agree with them. I think eli can still play and I t honk the giants will be good this year. So does management. You and many others disagree. Fine. My issue is you guys haven t acknowledged reality. This team does have a direction and have from the day Gettleman was hired. Were gearing up for another run with eli. Some of you just need to accept the reality
It tells me they watched the film and determined that Eli couldn't function behind that joke of a line we had. They believe if we fix this line we are immediate contenders again.
Have you all been in denial? The Giants were going to try to win the second they kept eli. I agree with them. I think eli can still play and I t honk the giants will be good this year. So does management. You and many others disagree. Fine. My issue is you guys haven t acknowledged reality. This team does have a direction and have from the day Gettleman was hired. Were gearing up for another run with eli. Some of you just need to accept the reality
I am accepting the reality. But I am of the strong opinion that this is the wrong move. The Giants will not win another title with Eli as quarterback. It's time to move on. I can accept this if this is just a 1-year transition deal but if they think it is more than that, they are fooling themselves and wasting time.
just competed well in both games, with an injruy ravaged team and a poor OL.
RE: a complete rebuild - this team will probably have at least 20, more likely half of the 53 man roster replaced - what do you want - 40 new players, 45?
The Eagles won 4 games in 2012 and then went 10-6 the very next year. That's a huge swing.
They were 7-9 in 2015 and 2016 and then won the Super Bowl last year.
Look at Carolina. Their records fluctuate wildly. Last 5 seasons:
11-5
6-10
15-1
7-8-1
12-4
I don't believe major long-term rebuilds are a necessity. I do believe drafting well IS a necessity.
It's not out of the realm of possibilities that NYG are competitive again in as little as a year or two. It happens every year.
I don't want them to do make short-term mistakes at the cost of long-term success - but I'm not really seeing that here.
I think Solder helps now, and helps down the road.
We have to fix this line. Sitting on it and not signing anyone doesn't get us any closer to doing that and it's not realistic to expect to build the entire thing through the draft.
Outside of Fletcher Cox the Eagles looked pretty dead in the water after Chip Kelly. Guys they signed in the offseason prior to drafting Wentz like Rodney Mccloud and Bradham were big pieces of the SB just a couple years later.
Who doesn't believe the defense can regain it's 2016 form? Who doesn't believe the Giants have a dynamic passing attack?
There are pieces missing for certain, AS THERE WERE in both 2007 and especially 2011 - the 2011 Giants were a LOST CAUSE. I still don't know how the hell they made the playoffs that season. They had lost 4 in a row, were 6-6 - 2 weeks later, the backbreaking home blowout loss to the Redskins put them to 7-7.
That was a inconsistent, injury-riddled team.
MORE:
- The 2011 Giants scoring defense was the worst of Super Bowl winners, ranking 25th after allowing an average of 25 points per game.
- Also notable is that the Giants' rushing offense was ranked 32nd (dead last) in the NFL with 1,427 yards, or an average of 89.2 rushing yards per game.
- The Giants finished the regular season with a -6 point differential (394 scored, 400 allowed), the worst differential of any Super Bowl champion.
- With a 9-7 regular-season record, the 2011 Giants were the first, and are the only, sub-10-win team to win the Super Bowl.
- The 2011 Giants are the only team to win the Super Bowl as the NFC's 4th Seed.
2011 proved to me that as long as Eli Manning is at the helm, there is hope.
In August of 2017 the Giants were clearly a super contender. All systems go! No major weaknesses. Team falls apart due in large part to mcadoo being a massive failure as HC. Injuries mount. Ownrship fires HC mid season. Team finished in dead last. And now the team is years and years from competing? One bad year changed everything?
Funny that on good year had everyone saying boom or bust yet mostly everyone had the team dead after the 2015 season.
This team needs a few hits but it could compete right away. One shit season with the worst HC in history doesnt change my view. They have pieces to work with.
maybe the fans should take some blame. At 2-9, McAdoo wanted to take an honest look at QB and was absolutely ridiculed. The further I get from the Eli saga, the more I think it was the right move and was completely overblown. Sadly, the Giants may still be reacting to that.
It was the right move. It was the way it was handled. It was a PR nightmare. Mara wasn't even present. A teary-eyed Manning was left alone in front of his locker with players laughing around him. Reese nowhere to be found too. McAdoo made the announcement matter-of-factly.
Giants got hammered. And made the situation worse by back-tracking.
This is the type of shit that has me worried about the way the franchise is being run right now.
they only got hammered cause mike francesa went on his final epic rant,the sports local and national media followed and piled on like never before,throw in the geno factor which caused the fans to behave like little girls at their first beatles concert.mara did his usual coward thing and hear we are.
You sign some marginal veteran to compete with Flowers, Wheeler, and rookies. It sucks, but you have to start from scratch.
In that case, you are setting up Webb or (Rosen, Darnold, Allen) for a David Carr Houston career. You have to take care of the next QB and they did so w this FA acquisition.
Possibly. But please keep in mind that Solder is not some sort of elite pass protector either. The reviews on him all say "inconsistent pass protector".
Can we keep track of everyone who thinks this is a great move and who next year is bitching because we don't have any cap space?
Well agree to disagree. I've told everyone they were passing on a qb. I think you will be surprised. I have a strong conviction eli will make a lot of people eat a lot of crow. I agree w management. I think we have a really good chance to bounce back this year. I really believe your wrong
Who doesn't believe the defense can regain it's 2016 form? Who doesn't believe the Giants have a dynamic passing attack?
There are pieces missing for certain, AS THERE WERE in both 2007 and especially 2011 - the 2011 Giants were a LOST CAUSE. I still don't know how the hell they made the playoffs that season. They had lost 4 in a row, were 6-6 - 2 weeks later, the backbreaking home blowout loss to the Redskins put them to 7-7.
That was a inconsistent, injury-riddled team.
MORE:
- The 2011 Giants scoring defense was the worst of Super Bowl winners, ranking 25th after allowing an average of 25 points per game.
- Also notable is that the Giants' rushing offense was ranked 32nd (dead last) in the NFL with 1,427 yards, or an average of 89.2 rushing yards per game.
- The Giants finished the regular season with a -6 point differential (394 scored, 400 allowed), the worst differential of any Super Bowl champion.
- With a 9-7 regular-season record, the 2011 Giants were the first, and are the only, sub-10-win team to win the Super Bowl.
- The 2011 Giants are the only team to win the Super Bowl as the NFC's 4th Seed.
2011 proved to me that as long as Eli Manning is at the helm, there is hope.
xmeadowlander, are you in reality Rip van Winkle :-) ? This is 2018, not 2012. Eli Manning is no longer capable of catching lightning in a bottle and carrying a team on his back to a fluke title. While you have been asleep, what you have written has been the Giants "plan" for the last 6 yrs until Jerry Reese was finally fired (not sure if you were awake yet for that :-) ).
And btw, the 2007 team was not a lost cause from a personnel standpoint. That team was loaded. The question was if TC could change his approach so as to still be TC but not be overbearing because the team was tuning him out.
The dilemma here is what Fatman alluded to before... is the notion that teams rebuild in today's NFL outdated? Many would argue yes. Perhaps I'm a product of my past. But sometimes the only way to get better is to take your lumps and just build through the draft. I'm all for finding a placeholder at left tackle. I'm not for making Solder the highest paid OL in the history of the NFL.
My thinking is this. The Giants are not a year or two away. How old is Eli in two years? And how likely is it he will be a better and not worse player in two years?
This reeks of the old Wellington Mara bandaid approach of the 1970s that Wellington himself later said was a huge mistake.
The NFL Champion Eagles are in the NFC East. We have to chase them by getting better than them. To me, it starts at QB. Patch-working around Eli seems desperate. It suggests to me John Mara is more worried about just being "decent" on the field again.
The Giants may be behind the curve because they drafted badly, but what is your point? They have to try to field a respectable team. DG can't do anything about draft history right now, this March. How does signing Solder obstruct a good draft or hinder the development of the team, say 2 years from now? If it becomes a pattern of making up for bad drafts with aggressive FAs, I get the point, but it is not a pattern yet with our current GM.
I also don't think the signing of Solder has anything to do with a commitment to Eli Manning.
running game and not just an average one is a must. Eli is not mobile - you have to make teams take the threat of a run seriously, better if they are worried about your run game.
Eric... Nick freaking Foles won the Super Bowl last yr!
We don't need 2011 Eli... Eli is still plenty good enough to win games with and win another Super Bowl. You guys are severely understating how completely incompetent our coaching was last year including simply moving Pugh to tackle last year and inserting Brett Jones into the starting lineup.
In other words, putting the more talented player in the right position to succeed. We are NOT years away from competing or making the playoffs. Make the playoffs and anything can happen. Every Giants should never dismiss that. WE KNOW BETTER!
I guess Dave Gettleman and many others are in denial too. Believe it or not many in the league believe eli can still play at a high level. Again you act like you and many others on this site are in denial. I hope your willing to admit your wrong because I really believe you and many others have a lot of crow to eat. Either way well see
Many in the NFL. Our gm included disagree with you. Weather you like it or not this team is gearing up for another run under eli. I'm also telling you many in the league know eli can still play at a high level
I guess Dave Gettleman and many others are in denial too. Believe it or not many in the league believe eli can still play at a high level. Again you act like you and many others on this site are in denial. I hope your willing to admit your wrong because I really believe you and many others have a lot of crow to eat. Either way well see
I think Mara is calling the shots. Either that or Gettleman is playing possum with the draft and intends to take the QB.
Right now, if you ask me, Mara's decision-making has been dreadful the last few years. Seems like a nice guy, but the buck stops with him... Reese, Ross, McAdoo, Coughlin, Eli benching, etc. Until he starts making good choices that pan out, I think he does not deserve the benefit of the doubt. This franchise has turned into a laughing stock in just a few years.
In August of 2017 the Giants were clearly a super contender. All systems go! No major weaknesses. Team falls apart due in large part to mcadoo being a massive failure as HC. Injuries mount. Ownrship fires HC mid season. Team finished in dead last. And now the team is years and years from competing? One bad year changed everything?
Funny that on good year had everyone saying boom or bust yet mostly everyone had the team dead after the 2015 season.
This team needs a few hits but it could compete right away. One shit season with the worst HC in history doesnt change my view. They have pieces to work with.
Even if you want the Giants to take a QB high, you need competent offensive line play in front of them over the next three years. I can't think of many examples of a successful young QB who didn't come into a team with at least stable offensive line play (all the more so if you are talking about guys who are traditional pocket QBs). Basically, regardless of the plan at QB, I don't think it makes any sense unless they have a solution at LT.
I understand taking your lumps to build a more complete roster...but if you're trying to develop a QB, I don't think it's a smart move to take those lumps across the entire OL.
Gettleman and Mara had the plan before he was hired. You have to know that right. I'm not saying its impossible they go qb but its unlikely. The plan is to try to win w eli this year and next. I think deep down you know that even if you disagree. I really do think you will have a lot of crow to eat regarding eli though
Gettleman and Mara had the plan before he was hired. You have to know that right. I'm not saying its impossible they go qb but its unlikely. The plan is to try to win w eli this year and next. I think deep down you know that even if you disagree. I really do think you will have a lot of crow to eat regarding eli though
jt, I think you and I have been on the same page throughout this whole season. We have been in the minority.
Possibly. But please keep in mind that Solder is not some sort of elite pass protector either. The reviews on him all say "inconsistent pass protector".
Can we keep track of everyone who thinks this is a great move and who next year is bitching because we don't have any cap space?
That's fair - and I don't think he is elite. But I do think it is imperative to give the new QB (as soon as they turn the page) a fighting chance as opposed to an insurmountable challenge. Solder at LT starts to point us in that direction. Still much work to do.
Well agree to disagree. I've told everyone they were passing on a qb. I think you will be surprised. I have a strong conviction eli will make a lot of people eat a lot of crow. I agree w management. I think we have a really good chance to bounce back this year. I really believe your wrong
Management hasn't said anything to agree with. Everything they've said is exactly what they'd say if they believed in Eli, and also exactly what they'd say if they didn't believe in Eli.
Essentially, you agree with yourself, that's it. Nothing that has been said or done has tipped NYG's hand with respect to their QB situation. You're choosing to believe in the scenario in the way that you hope it plays out, and that's fine. But there's nothing (yet, anyway) to confirm, or even suggest, that your perspective is any more rooted in reality than anyone else's.
Imo the only qb they would consider is Darnold. You can't be half pregnant. If you take a qb let him play and take his lumps. Its not like years ago where guys could sit. Once they committed to eli they committed to winning. They either take Barkley or accumulate more picks. This also gives Shurmers time to evaluate Webb. Make no mistake though the giants are going for it now
In August of 2017 the Giants were clearly a super contender. All systems go! No major weaknesses. Team falls apart due in large part to mcadoo being a massive failure as HC. Injuries mount. Ownrship fires HC mid season. Team finished in dead last. And now the team is years and years from competing? One bad year changed everything?
Funny that on good year had everyone saying boom or bust yet mostly everyone had the team dead after the 2015 season.
This team needs a few hits but it could compete right away. One shit season with the worst HC in history doesnt change my view. They have pieces to work with.
BINGO!! +1
It's not just 1 shit season though, 2016 was our only playoff appearance in six seasons...and we got our doors blown off in the WC round. The team was deteriorating for while, it's just that the bottom finally fell out last year.
The same people piling on Reese for being such a horrible GM are the ones championing the talent that he left on this roster.
RE: gidiefor
gidiefor : Mod : 1:07 pm : link : reply
Eric - I think you need to look at Minnesota -- if you look there you will see that if you do plug in key holes your team can become quite competitive. That's not to say that the Giants shouldn't make shrewd moves in FA and draft well, in fact -- duh!! - but the facts are that there is some talent on this team now and some known holes. It sure as heck looks like those holes are being plugged up forcefully.
but that's just it.....there are too many holes. And what Minny did was the exception and not the norm....
Beckham, Engram, Collins, Jack Rabbit, Snacks are solid Pro-bowl caliber players
OBj wants his money, and in some form that may rear it's ugly head this season....Engram has to take that next step.....Will the real Landon Collins please stand up?
OV, JPP, Tomlinson, Solder, Shepard, Oogletree, Ellison, DeOssie are in the next tier right behind them --
DeOssie? Tomlinson has a long way to go....JPP has his money, 'nuff said....OV has problems staying on the field, and has not lived up to his press releases....Solder helps a line that still has problems.....Shepard did not take that next step last season.....Ogletree can't play all the linebacker positions at once.....Ellison? Really?
Jones, Gallman, Manning, Martin, Herlich, Halapio are solid if unspectacular
If you are lumping Manning with the likes of Jones, Gallman, Herz, what the hell does that say about Manning?
So your questions are Apple, Goodson, Thompson, A. Adams, Jerry, Perkins, J. Adams, Wheeler, Bizno, LG and WR#3
Yes I do question the FS, 2nd and 3rd CB positions, linebacker positions(outside of Ogletree), and absolutely no depth in backups for the defense.....
Nate Solder alone is not going to fix this OL.....Jones is a stop gap center....We don't even know if Flowers can learn another position, never mind the fact he probably won't be here next year....so where is the rest of this line? And what about their backups? How long will it take them to gel?
Perkins, Gallman, and Stewart? Is that enough to scare any team? And yes, we need another WR......
And a punter and kicker...
This team may have some good starters, but if we get hit with the injury bug again, this team can go south quickly...
I agree with Eric......I don't think the Giants have learned their lesson for the last 6 seasons.....they still think they are one or two players away......
I think they spent too much on Solder.....
There are some on BBI that think Eli is still capable of being the 2011 Eli......Sorry, that ship has sailed....he can still play, but he needs a solid OL in front of him, and a running game.....Physically, he is not the same player....and I have no idea how you can reset that lock in his head....
what makes you think that? I hope you're wrong because I agree that Mara's judgment is suspect.
He claimed the offense was broken when it really had more to do with the deterioring OLine.
The vibe I get from Mara is he always thinks the Giants are just a piece or two away. "If we just replace Coughlin with McAdoo and keep everyone else..." "If we just surround Eli with better players..."
This team was an atrocious train wreck last year on offense and special teams...and the defense completely regressed. Clearly they don't think it's just the coaching or they wouldn't have fired Reese and Ross... which also suggests to anyone clearly thinking that they think the roster is a mess too.
If you think the roster is a mess, then why would you stick with a 37-year old declining QB? And if you don't think the roster is a mess, why did you fire the GM and College Scouting Director?
The OL - even with Solder - is still a mess. Do we have a starting RB? We don't have a starting WR opposite of Beckham. The CB situation is getting scary. Who are our kickers? Etc.
Would it REALLY shock anyone here that Mara told the recently-fired Gettleman (who is in retirement age) that if you come here, Eli is the starting QB? It wouldn't shock me. It also wouldn't shock me if Mara was the one who said we're re-signing Herzlich.
Now again, I'm OK with keeping Eli as long as they serious consider the possibility that he is done and make contingency plans (either draft a QB high or have some unbelievable conviction in Webb). But if they think Eli is ready to get us back to the title game, than I think that is crazy thinking.
"We don't think the Philly game was a mirage!" (WTF about the other 14 games?)
but don't get the half-pregnant analogy. why couldn't he sit a year or two? Throwing these kids to the wolves in one of the reasons for some of the poor QB play.
Well agree to disagree. I've told everyone they were passing on a qb. I think you will be surprised. I have a strong conviction eli will make a lot of people eat a lot of crow. I agree w management. I think we have a really good chance to bounce back this year. I really believe your wrong
Management hasn't said anything to agree with. Everything they've said is exactly what they'd say if they believed in Eli, and also exactly what they'd say if they didn't believe in Eli.
Essentially, you agree with yourself, that's it. Nothing that has been said or done has tipped NYG's hand with respect to their QB situation. You're choosing to believe in the scenario in the way that you hope it plays out, and that's fine. But there's nothing (yet, anyway) to confirm, or even suggest, that your perspective is any more rooted in reality than anyone else's.
The fact Elis here confirms I'm right. If they were rebuilding he wouldn't be here. These top picks all play right away now
First of all, that's not entirely true. Goff didn't play right away. Mahomes didn't play right away. In fact, even Trubisky and Watson didn't technically enter the season last year as the nominal starters. They can absolutely draft a QB at #2 and have him sit behind Eli for a year, or even just part of the year, depending on how the season plays out.
The fact is, there is absolutely nothing to support your opinion that they're going to try to load up for another run with Eli any more than there's anything to support anyone else's opinion that they're going to tear the whole thing down and rebuild, or any other option in between those two ends of the spectrum.
Think about this, though. Since Reese, Ross and McAdoo have been let go, even the beat writers have gotten nearly every single prediction/report wrong. Yet you choose to believe that Gettleman is completely honest and forthright when he speaks to the media about the QB situation? That's his truth serum?
It's fine that you are hoping that everything plays out one particular way, so much so that you have convinced yourself that it absolutely will play out that way. But it's really just your opinion and your hope. Every scenario is still possible at this point.
The fact Elis here confirms I'm right. If they were rebuilding he wouldn't be here. These top picks all play right away now
The fact that Eli is still here does not confirm anything. Eli has a no trade clause. Plus Eli can serve as a mentor to a rookie. They Giants brought in Warner and then drafted Eli. Most teams don't gamble on a rookie with no veteran around and the fact that Eli is already here under contract with a no trade clause. Its not like they just brought in Eli now, like if Cleveland had traded for Cousins.
Right or wrong, the prior staff and GM who knew him best clearly saw Eli as part of the problem. The owner requested to start getting the young QBs a look and signed off on benching Eli. The new GM is saying the things to indicate they are all in on Eli, but there is no motivation for him to say otherwise. You just don't know. Actions will prove, not coach speak. You are not going to win any points with anyone by coming in as they new guy and trashing the endeared SB winning QB and DG is well aware of the backlash with the Eli benching.
I completely agree with your last post. The entire Eli era has been a series of "make a run" efforts.
The two titles were amazing and I wouldn't trade them for anything, but to objectively move forward that sentiment has to be separated from the strategies and philosophies employed over that time period.
Calling him a horrible gm is lunacy. He won 2 Lombardi in 10 years on the job. He'll get another chance. Believe me
I agree with you, not right away but after some time as an assistant or consultant he should get a shot given his early success.
You may feel different, but I've noticed an inconsistent correlation between posters that believe Reese was absolute trash and those that think we still have enough talent to make a run. The two don't align. Who knows, I could be off and may just be another victim of the "but BBI tells me" cliche that I see all the time.
Offense was only a total mess because of the OLine. Sullivan predicted it in the preseason he said "This team will go as far as the OLine takes it." Verbatim quote. He was right.
And McAdoo was clearly not ready for the step up.
RE: a RB - they will draft one. RE: wr opposite Beckham. Shepard one or several of the youngsters will step up and then there is Engram - he is analogius to a wr threat.
College scouts & Reese got tossed because of too many whiffs - 2 OL Round 1, 1 OL Round 2, Several DEs in Round 3, DT in round 2. Think it may have been an inept souting department and Reese too enamored with "Hey, look how athletic this guy is - he's got a high ceiling". Poor drafting was obvious to anyone with eyes.
Defense - well they have talent, but, think Spags was better with TC looking over his shoulder. Think it was Ohara that recently said Spags was always wanting to do these exotic schemes and TC would restrain him, a bit. That was the knock on him with either Ravens or Eagles.
or could they have said - this season is shot. we really don't know what we have behind our aging QB, so now is a good time to see during real games.
It would also be a wise move for those, like me, who still think Eli can play. Why risk your franchise QB? He's not that mobile, they have no running game and they are struggling in protection.
Playing Geno or Webb did not necessarily mean Eli was done.
(1) the offensive line was a mess
(2) our running backs were not good
(3) Brandon Marshall sucked then got hurt
(4) our quarterback didn't play well
I saw plenty of plays where Eli had plenty of time with wide open receivers and he misfired. I saw plenty of times we were in 3rd-and-10 because our RB couldn't hit a hole. I saw plenty of times where our receivers were blanketed. I saw plenty of times where our offensive line or tight ends couldn't block.
It wasn't all just the OL. And if you think it was, we're screwed because the OL isn't going to magically turnaround in 2018.
I completely agree with your last post. The entire Eli era has been a series of "make a run" efforts.
The two titles were amazing and I wouldn't trade them for anything, but to objectively move forward that sentiment has to be separated from the strategies and philosophies employed over that time period.
I disagree. The whole Eli era has been a series of questionable drafts + free agency by Jerry Reese with an overemphasis on skill positions relative to the OL/DL, especially after Gettleman left. Mara wants to try to win every year, as is his right but they have never spent themselves into cap hell. They have very rarely signed players over 30. They had a GM with a flawed vision of team construction and they were too slow to realize it.
It couldn't be more obvious that McAdoo saw Eli as part of the problem. Everything he said and did supports that. And Reese didn't exactly hide the fact that he had questions. He used a 3rd round draft pick on a QB in an offseason when they didn't hide they were planning for Eli's successor and comments along the way such as skittish, etc.
Gettleman and Mara had the plan before he was hired. You have to know that right. I'm not saying its impossible they go qb but its unlikely. The plan is to try to win w eli this year and next. I think deep down you know that even if you disagree. I really do think you will have a lot of crow to eat regarding eli though
jt, I think you and I have been on the same page throughout this whole season. We have been in the minority.
It couldn't be more obvious that McAdoo saw Eli as part of the problem. Everything he said and did supports that. And Reese didn't exactly hide the fact that he had questions. He used a 3rd round draft pick on a QB in an offseason when they didn't hide they were planning for Eli's successor and comments along the way such as skittish, etc.
Eli definitely must improve on his throws to the backs. It seems they waste too many running plays with low probability of success to set up play action.
I think it was all part of the reactive nature of the organization. How many defensive coordinators did Coughlin churn through? How many moves were made in response to a shortcoming (real or perceived)?
I agree with your point about Reese's drafting, but I think that was a symptom of a larger problem.
It couldn't be more obvious that McAdoo saw Eli as part of the problem. Everything he said and did supports that. And Reese didn't exactly hide the fact that he had questions. He used a 3rd round draft pick on a QB in an offseason when they didn't hide they were planning for Eli's successor and comments along the way such as skittish, etc.
Eli definitely must improve on his throws to the backs. It seems they waste too many running plays with low probability of success to set up play action.
eli executes screens and the short passing game like elaine dancing on seinfeld.
Average backs can do a decent job behind a good OLine. Gotta keep in mind - when TC left offense was run by someone in over their head.
You make a good point re" how quickly can they turn OL around. Million dollar question - too many unknowns. How much of poor OLIne play was due to scehem and coaching decisions - Giants played some of their most competitive games against the Eagles, one of best DLines. We don't know what we have in a few of the youngsters - Wheeler, Dunker.
You have an immobile QB with no running game & OLIne struggling in pass protection, & a coaching staff in over their head. Think it made things look worse than they were.
They have a center they think can play in Jones. Hopefully Flowers can plug in somewhere - probably RT. Solder. I think you may see someone like Halapio start. And they will bring in some new talent. It's a heavy lift but it could be done. Will it? - FIIK. Hoepfully. Thing about OLines is that they are always supposed to amount to more than the sume of their parts. We'll see. And there are still moves to be made in FA.
Possibly. But please keep in mind that Solder is not some sort of elite pass protector either. The reviews on him all say "inconsistent pass protector".
Can we keep track of everyone who thinks this is a great move and who next year is bitching because we don't have any cap space?
Hey, I wanted Ramczyk!
I think the proponents of this signing realize it's a shitty contract. Personally, I'm alright with it because we really didn't leave ourselves any other legitimate options.
but some of your reaction is a bit premature. If the Giants are playing at @ Atlanta next year getting ready for a WildCard game, of course you'll feel differently.
I have a lot of problems with John Mara's recent past. The decision to walk totally back on the Eli decision at the expense of getting a look at Webb on real game film was a travesty, Eli should have started the first couple of games after McAdoo was canned while Webb was accelerated before ultimately handing it over to him. But what's done is done.
The Giants are going to try to compete in 2018 whether you like it or not. The landscape in the NFL is such, that you are stupid if you don't try. Any number of things can happen in the NFL next year including the Eagles being ravaged by injury and flopping. It's a year to year proposition unless you're the Pats or the Browns.
If the Giants (after adding Solder), select Barkley in the 1st and a plug and play Guard in round 2, are we as worried about Eli and the run game as we are now? Things can turn around in a hurry. They might also be able to swing a trade down for a generational OG and pick up additional picks in 2019.
As for the QB position, Shula was personally at Baker Mayfield's pro day today. Due diligence is being done. If they like a QB they'll very likely take him and not look back. There is also the fact that we have a 3rd round pick with some ability who has now been around Eli Manning every day for almost a year, learning, studying and developing habits. We also hired a head coach who made something out of Case Keenum and has a reputation of a magic touch with QBs. Why BBI has taken the position that Davis Webb is a total non-factor I have no idea, but I doubt DG and PS feel the same way.
I think it was all part of the reactive nature of the organization. How many defensive coordinators did Coughlin churn through? How many moves were made in response to a shortcoming (real or perceived)?
I agree with your point about Reese's drafting, but I think that was a symptom of a larger problem.
That I agree with, but to me the larger problem you're articulating is that Mara isn't a great front office executive - most (all) owners aren't. His judgement was off on Jerry Reese which led to him believing terribly flawed advice that it was the coaching, not the personnel.
As best we can tell as fans, I liked the hires of Gettleman and Shurmur. I think he chose a GM who is clearly unafraid to speak his mind and not just a 'yes man'. He also has a good track record in the specific areas this team needs improvement - toughness, OL, DL. I don't think it's fair to lump decisions this new regime is making in efforts to improve areas of weakness with the philosophy of the previous regime - beyond the obvious that Mara is always trying to win. If they pass on the next Andrew Luck because they have Davis Webb that will be a huge blunder. Signing a competent veteran LT isn't a blunder for a team with a desperately terrible OL.
It couldn't be more obvious that McAdoo saw Eli as part of the problem. Everything he said and did supports that. And Reese didn't exactly hide the fact that he had questions. He used a 3rd round draft pick on a QB in an offseason when they didn't hide they were planning for Eli's successor and comments along the way such as skittish, etc.
Eli definitely must improve on his throws to the backs. It seems they waste too many running plays with low probability of success to set up play action.
eli executes screens and the short passing game like elaine dancing on seinfeld.
LOL - great line.
Look, Eli has had a great career, so I don't mean this as anything more than a comical comment. But can you think of a less athletic QB. Despite his lack of foot-speed, I don't mean slower because guys like Scott Mitchell have that dishonor. I just mean general coordination i.e. to throw a soft catch-able dump off pass or to be able to run 10 yards or little slide that most QBs mastered in 9th grade.
The way it was done was a mixture of classless & incompetent.
Thought Eli has some left, but season was lost, what better opportunity to see what backups could do. Should have stuck with it and gave Webb a shot. And, why leave Eli in there to get knocked around. At least Smith has some wheels and has a fighting (Flighting) chance to survive
But he was fired before the season was over. You want to hang your haton his assessment?
They drafted Webb. Of course. Eli is over 35, why wouldn't they be thinking of his successor?
Again, thinking about life after Eli and that he can still play are not mutually exclusive.
McAdoo was not a good coach. But he did know Eli better and have more to go on than the guys in place now and he also was his offensive coordinator during years when Eli played well.
Regarding the drafting of Webb, it is not only that they drafted Webb. Following the poor offensive showing in 2016 there were comments from both the GM and Mara about the need for better play at QB, and you also have stronger negative comments from the GM like calling Eli skittish. Those signs are not about preparing for life after Eli, they are comments addressing the issues facing the offense and were inclusive of the need for better play at the QB position.
I stand by everything I've said. If you can't or won't see the teams all in to win now so be it. I will be proven correct. How you don't see it boggles my mind. That said if I'm wrong ill admit it. Just be prepared to eat a lot of crow when eli proves he has plenty left in the tank.
I think if you read between the lines of what jt is saying, it's wasn't exactly the organization's call on keeping Eli, at least not 100%.
I think what jt is alluding too, is that if Eli himself thought they were using him as a stop gap, perhaps he would not be still be here, and would be looking to win somewhere else.
It couldn't be more obvious that McAdoo saw Eli as part of the problem. Everything he said and did supports that. And Reese didn't exactly hide the fact that he had questions. He used a 3rd round draft pick on a QB in an offseason when they didn't hide they were planning for Eli's successor and comments along the way such as skittish, etc.
Eli definitely must improve on his throws to the backs. It seems they waste too many running plays with low probability of success to set up play action.
eli executes screens and the short passing game like elaine dancing on seinfeld.
LOL - great line.
Look, Eli has had a great career, so I don't mean this as anything more than a comical comment. But can you think of a less athletic QB. Despite his lack of foot-speed, I don't mean slower because guys like Scott Mitchell have that dishonor. I just mean general coordination i.e. to throw a soft catch-able dump off pass or to be able to run 10 yards or little slide that most QBs mastered in 9th grade.
like when he tried to slide and fumbled which cost them a chance to beat philly a few years ago. he is the worst qb i have seen at executing screens.
So much depends on where they land. Even a top prospect like Luck has been hamstrung by incompetent management, while a third rounder in Russell Wilson landed in an excellent organization and won a Super Bowl.
Remove the names involved: if you were advising a team with a 37 year old QB coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, how would you tell them to proceed?
Objectivity is needed here. What happened in the past is moot. What is Eli going to be?
So much depends on where they land. Even a top prospect like Luck has been hamstrung by incompetent management, while a third rounder in Russell Wilson landed in an excellent organization and won a Super Bowl.
Remove the names involved: if you were advising a team with a 37 year old QB coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, how would you tell them to proceed?
Objectivity is needed here. What happened in the past is moot. What is Eli going to be?
Eli is going to be better than any other QB option available to us during the next two years.
The second overall pick is not the only way to find a good QB these days. Russell Wilson (as you mentioned), Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garapolo were all had in later rounds.
There are many ways to build a team. System and controlling the LOS seem to be the option du jour these days, not the "get the QB and build around him", see Andrew Luck (as you mentioned).
RE: It's impossible to know what these QBs will or won't be
So much depends on where they land. Even a top prospect like Luck has been hamstrung by incompetent management, while a third rounder in Russell Wilson landed in an excellent organization and won a Super Bowl.
Remove the names involved: if you were advising a team with a 37 year old QB coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, how would you tell them to proceed?
Objectivity is needed here. What happened in the past is moot. What is Eli going to be?
I don't think you ever just hand the reigns of a team to a rookie. The Browns acquired Tyrod Taylor for that exact reason. I think Eli is still better than Tyrod Taylor (and most of the other QB's getting insane contracts this offseason) and I see no reason to believe he wouldn't also be a great mentor to any young QB.
If I thought there was a franchise QB at 2 next month I'd take him without hesitation. That decision wouldn't change my approach in FA to surround him with the best team possible, especially a good OL. Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson aren't as effective as they were right away if they didn't have great running games.
So to me whether it's Eli or Sam Darnold, my approach to FA and rebuilding this roster would have probably still included going after Andrew Norwell and Nate Solder.
There are other possibilities such as taking a HOF level Guard after a trade back and if Eli doesnt play well you find yourself with 2 number 1 picks in 2019.
There is also the possibility of forcing the pick on a QB who sucks and watching Barkley and Nelson go on to all-pro careers elsewhere.
There is also the possibility of drafting Barkley or Nelson and Webb takes over in 2019 and finds success in Shurmur's system after a seamless transition.
It's not draft a QB with the #2 pick or the Giants are stupid.
I'm just a little confused by your takes lately. The NFL is a year to year business. What do you want Mara and Gettleman to do? Spend absolutely nothing with the cap we have? Try to keep finding "gems" in the mid rounds or "value" signings with average football players? This team needs top tier talent, especially on the OL. Drafting guys is great, but but it's a crapshoot.
Solder is a 30 year old LT and is very good. It's the most important position on the football field besides QB. This was a good move. Not sure how else you can swing it.
this board badly wanted an upgrade to the OL. Gettleman goes out and signs one of the better LTs in football, and yet, here we are. Still bitching. Unbelievable.
So much depends on where they land. Even a top prospect like Luck has been hamstrung by incompetent management, while a third rounder in Russell Wilson landed in an excellent organization and won a Super Bowl.
Remove the names involved: if you were advising a team with a 37 year old QB coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, how would you tell them to proceed?
Objectivity is needed here. What happened in the past is moot. What is Eli going to be?
Eli is going to be better than any other QB option available to us during the next two years.
The second overall pick is not the only way to find a good QB these days. Russell Wilson (as you mentioned), Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garapolo were all had in later rounds.
There are many ways to build a team. System and controlling the LOS seem to be the option du jour these days, not the "get the QB and build around him", see Andrew Luck (as you mentioned).
That's quite an assumption. There's no way of knowing that. And given the talent level of this current class and what a guy like Watson was able to do when he got thrown into the fire, I'd be willing to bet this won't be true.
Look at what Wentz and Goff did in year 2. Both guys were better than Eli this year by a pretty wide margin.
(1) the offensive line was a mess
(2) our running backs were not good
(3) Brandon Marshall sucked then got hurt
(4) our quarterback didn't play well
I saw plenty of plays where Eli had plenty of time with wide open receivers and he misfired. I saw plenty of times we were in 3rd-and-10 because our RB couldn't hit a hole. I saw plenty of times where our receivers were blanketed. I saw plenty of times where our offensive line or tight ends couldn't block.
It wasn't all just the OL. And if you think it was, we're screwed because the OL isn't going to magically turnaround in 2018.
The OL can magically turn around if they draft well. Good rookie OL are impacting immediately in the league.
I stand by everything I've said. If you can't or won't see the teams all in to win now so be it. I will be proven correct. How you don't see it boggles my mind. That said if I'm wrong ill admit it. Just be prepared to eat a lot of crow when eli proves he has plenty left in the tank.
There's no crow to be eaten. I have not said that you're wrong, just that the certainty you seem to have isn't based on anything that you can possibly be certain about. Everything the team has said and done that you claim is proof that they're doing one thing, would be exactly the same if they were doing the complete opposite.
My point is just that your certainty stems solely from what you hope will happen, not from anything that definitively points in that direction.
this board badly wanted an upgrade to the OL. Gettleman goes out and signs one of the better LTs in football, and yet, here we are. Still bitching. Unbelievable.
EXACTLY!! Look I agree we are overpaying, but we are paying for our past sins!! Would everyone rather Gettleman sit on his hands and sign no one, then draft as many O-Linemen as he can. listen, Solder is no slouch, he will provide some much needed veteran leadership on that line. let's hope Gettleman can find another piece for the Line in F/A and add a draft pick or two to the mix.
If you look at any statistical measure, Eli has been a good but not great QB in the regular season throughout his career. He peaked around 2011 but even then he was not elite like his brother, Brady, or Rodgers.
The only stats where elite is elite is Super Bowl wins. He is a guy who raises his game in the playoffs. I would compare him to Claude Lemieux, a guy who was decent in the NHL regular seaslon but became the best player on the ice in the playoffs.
Most of his career Eli has been somewhere around the 8-12th best QB in the NFL. His career numbers are predicated on durability (very important for a QB), not because he was ever in a class with Brees or Peyton.
So, now he is probably the 12th best qb rather than the 7th or 8th. But he is still basically the same guy. Before, he was a bit overrated by Giants fans and we all would bristle when national media often failed to list Eli among the top QBs. Now, it has gone the other way, he is being undertated.
It is undeniable his game has declined a bit, but if you gave him the 2011 OL and Cruz and Nicks, he would still put numbers.
Marvin Austin instead of Marcus Gilbert (2011)
Ruben Randle instead of Brandon Brooks (2012)
Justin Pugh instead of Travis Frederick (2013)
Weston Richburg instead of Trai Turner (2014)
Ereck Flowers instead of Andrus Peat (2015)
Eli Apple instead of Laremy Tunsil (2016)
To take into account how bad Mac's scheme possibly was. It wasn't just the OL. Manning was dealing with a poor OL in addition to a possible horrible offensive scheme.
i think he's a generational RB. But I wouldn't be upset if we pass on him for a QB. Nobody really should be. It's the most important position in sports, and if we draft a stud, it won't matter if Barkley becomes Adrian Peterson. We'll have a franchise QB.
If you look at any statistical measure, Eli has been a good but not great QB in the regular season throughout his career. He peaked around 2011 but even then he was not elite like his brother, Brady, or Rodgers.
The only stats where elite is elite is Super Bowl wins. He is a guy who raises his game in the playoffs. I would compare him to Claude Lemieux, a guy who was decent in the NHL regular seaslon but became the best player on the ice in the playoffs.
Most of his career Eli has been somewhere around the 8-12th best QB in the NFL. His career numbers are predicated on durability (very important for a QB), not because he was ever in a class with Brees or Peyton.
So, now he is probably the 12th best qb rather than the 7th or 8th. But he is still basically the same guy. Before, he was a bit overrated by Giants fans and we all would bristle when national media often failed to list Eli among the top QBs. Now, it has gone the other way, he is being undertated.
It is undeniable his game has declined a bit, but if you gave him the 2011 OL and Cruz and Nicks, he would still put numbers.
Only Player to show up in the Green Bay Fiasco! which lends credence to what you said about his game when he's in the playoffs, he's a different QB.
it's entirely possible that they can still think he has 2 good years left in the tank, and also draft a QB at 2. Why can't we do that?
I've said this, as well. But apparently some think you can't draft a QB at 2 and win anymore, which is odd considering Carson Wentz exists.
If we're going it for it this year & talking about 'one side eating crow', then the team better win alot of games AND have a pretty good playoff run. Not one and done. But win a couple of games in the playoffs.
I can name several quarterbacks picked the last two years that outperformed Eli in 2017. Why assume he's going to be better than any of these guys in 2018?
Again, objectivity is needed. I will give you two numbers that are objective: age and cap number.
If you look at any statistical measure, Eli has been a good but not great QB in the regular season throughout his career. He peaked around 2011 but even then he was not elite like his brother, Brady, or Rodgers.
The only stats where elite is elite is Super Bowl wins. He is a guy who raises his game in the playoffs. I would compare him to Claude Lemieux, a guy who was decent in the NHL regular seaslon but became the best player on the ice in the playoffs.
Most of his career Eli has been somewhere around the 8-12th best QB in the NFL. His career numbers are predicated on durability (very important for a QB), not because he was ever in a class with Brees or Peyton.
So, now he is probably the 12th best qb rather than the 7th or 8th. But he is still basically the same guy. Before, he was a bit overrated by Giants fans and we all would bristle when national media often failed to list Eli among the top QBs. Now, it has gone the other way, he is being undertated.
It is undeniable his game has declined a bit, but if you gave him the 2011 OL and Cruz and Nicks, he would still put numbers.
This is the best take on Eli I've seen on this board. Overrated by Giants fans in his prime and overrated in his decline recently. He's always been a top 1/3 of the league starter with special intangibles. He's probably regressed a little to middle of the pack with special intangibles. My problem with loading up behind Eli is that we won't be able to build a good enough roster to take advantage of those intangibles before he actually is done. And that's me believing that most of his regression recently has been mental, even if he squares that part away, the physical regression is inevitable.
It's pretty clear how the Giants are approaching this, I just don't think it's the right call.
So much depends on where they land. Even a top prospect like Luck has been hamstrung by incompetent management, while a third rounder in Russell Wilson landed in an excellent organization and won a Super Bowl.
Remove the names involved: if you were advising a team with a 37 year old QB coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, how would you tell them to proceed?
Objectivity is needed here. What happened in the past is moot. What is Eli going to be?
If I loved one of the qbs im definitely taking a qb. Absolutely. Even with Barkley on the board Id take the qb and I love Barkley.
"just give Eli a great OL and he'll be great" should really be put to rest already. A lot of QBs would be awesome with amazing OLs. Eli had a below average OL in 2011 and we won the Super Bowl. He's not the same player he was then. If you're OL is average, you have to make up for it in some way and he just isn't doing that right now. The Eli we saw in the 2012 championship game against SF would probably just fall down before getting hit now instead of firing rockets down the middle right before getting lit up.
Is he a good QB? I think he still is, yes. Can he still sling it when he has time every so often like both Philly games? Yes. But overall is he playing like a franchise QB at the current moment? No. We are basically banking on him turning it around and playing at a very high level if we don't take a QB in this draft. The team isn't good enough to get by with Eli's warts. This isn't the 2006-2010 roster or even the 2011 roster. If we don't draft a QB, Webb better be damn good.
We're just ignoring playing environment? I'd say that is a big factor when evaluating a player's performance
Of course it is. But this isn't the first year Eli has struggled.
I think it's a pretty safe bet that one of the QB's drafted in April will be better than 37/38 year old Eli Manning within their first 2 seasons.
Some of you guys are blaming Eli's struggles on everything BUT Eli. He's had awful conditions, but he's also missing a lot of throws and not playing at a high level even when he does have some time to throw.
For every game against the Eagles where he threw for like 450 yards, there are about 7-10 performances that aren't even close.
I think sentimentality is absolutely clouding a lot of the visions here.
"just give Eli a great OL and he'll be great" should really be put to rest already. A lot of QBs would be awesome with amazing OLs. Eli had a below average OL in 2011 and we won the Super Bowl. He's not the same player he was then. If you're OL is average, you have to make up for it in some way and he just isn't doing that right now. The Eli we saw in the 2012 championship game against SF would probably just fall down before getting hit now instead of firing rockets down the middle right before getting lit up.
Is he a good QB? I think he still is, yes. Can he still sling it when he has time every so often like both Philly games? Yes. But overall is he playing like a franchise QB at the current moment? No. We are basically banking on him turning it around and playing at a very high level if we don't take a QB in this draft. The team isn't good enough to get by with Eli's warts. This isn't the 2006-2010 roster or even the 2011 roster. If we don't draft a QB, Webb better be damn good.
I can't say if you're point is valid or not. Truthfully, I don't think you can either. But I would say that there are gradations of sub-par and there are gradations of good. I feel like you can can overcome some sub-par but if you can't overcome a different sub-par, that's not *necessarily* on you. 2011 is below average; could 2011 Eli succeed with the 2018 cast? hat is unanswerable. Would he have won 3 games this year with a group of girl scouts (also sub-par as pro player) as his teammates? Maybe. Maybe 3 wins is Eli's level, no matter the circumstances, and nothing else matters.
Here's the issue. If Eli plays well this year, in my opinion, he will be allowed to finish his contract. They didn't release him this year- do you honestly think he would be released off a good year? Having the number 2 pick in the draft sit for 2 years is a terrible use of resources in a cap era. I stand by my conviction eli can still play and I think the giants are being transparent about this. Time will tell though and well see but I think unless its Darnold, maybe, were taking Barkley.
RE: What were the other teams offers like for Solder?
Now you're talking. I don't think it's any QB at #2, I think it's Darnold or they go Barkley if he's there. I've been consistent in that, and that I don't think one of the other QBs will measure up at #2. A hunch.
They can let Eli finish his contract, and they well might do it because sentimentality is part of the equation at play right now. But, it doesn't mean they can't draft a QB they covet at #2.
I'd rather draft Darnold and be ready for him to potentially step in in 2019, rather then skip him and put it all on Eli.
a year in which he played very well, did what was asked of him, took what they gave him. Whatever, it won games.
He also played well enough to win in Green Bay while his receivers dropped a million passes.
Eli is not still as good as his most ardent supporters think he is. I don't believe he's as bad as the typical "Eli throws high slants and get Beckham hurt" crowd.
He likely has 1-2 years left of adequate play if part of a good roster. He is not carrying a team any longer, but he definitely still can manage games and perform at a winning level.
have a high watermark in their career. Eli's was 2011. He isn't as good as he was then. This is not a bad thing, it's just time/factual. That being said, I do love me some Saquon and wouldn't be the slightest bit upset if he was the guy. If it's him, then we better hope that Webb is the goods.
Here's the issue. If Eli plays well this year, in my opinion, he will be allowed to finish his contract. They didn't release him this year- do you honestly think he would be released off a good year? Having the number 2 pick in the draft sit for 2 years is a terrible use of resources in a cap era. I stand by my conviction eli can still play and I think the giants are being transparent about this. Time will tell though and well see but I think unless its Darnold, maybe, were taking Barkley.
Depends on what they do in the draft. Phil Simms had one of his best seasons in 1993 and the Giants cut him for Dave Brown. You are also making the assumption that Eli will magically revert back to what...his 2014-2015 form? Because he sucked in 2013 and wasn't very good in 2016 and 2017. Extenuating circumstances? Most likely. But he's 37 and those 2011 moments are fewer and fewer.
But there is a good chance you are right that Eli plays out his final two years here. But I can see him doing that and still playing at a very mediocre level. And we then have wasted two more years.
Look, Mara, Reese, and Ross screwed the team around Eli the last six years. But you can't go back in time and fit it. It's done. You have to move on.
We're just ignoring playing environment? I'd say that is a big factor when evaluating a player's performance
Of course it is. But this isn't the first year Eli has struggled.
I think it's a pretty safe bet that one of the QB's drafted in April will be better than 37/38 year old Eli Manning within their first 2 seasons.
Some of you guys are blaming Eli's struggles on everything BUT Eli. He's had awful conditions, but he's also missing a lot of throws and not playing at a high level even when he does have some time to throw.
For every game against the Eagles where he threw for like 450 yards, there are about 7-10 performances that aren't even close.
I think sentimentality is absolutely clouding a lot of the visions here.
Players aren't robots, after being in a situation long enough it wears on you. The OL has been a mess for a while. It has a cumlative affect.
Not that long ago Mac was brought in, he and coughlin combined schemes and Manning played well. Coughlin leaves, the ol doesn't get better, maybe gets worse, Mac possibly strips coughlin's part of the offense, which seems like the only good part, Manning struggles. Manning deserves benefit of the doubt
I get your feelings and respect them. I guess a lot of this comes down to I really think eli has more in the tank then you do. I guess well see because he'll have no excuses this year. I think well continue to be aggressive this off-season
have a high watermark in their career. Eli's was 2011. He isn't as good as he was then. This is not a bad thing, it's just time/factual. That being said, I do love me some Saquon and wouldn't be the slightest bit upset if he was the guy. If it's him, then we better hope that Webb is the goods.
I don't even believe that. I really believe that if we focus the next two years on keeping OBJ, havign Barkley, Engram, Shepard, a *decent* #2 WR, and work on improving the OL (and defense tweaks)..all stuff that the next two drafts and FA would make reasonable, that Trent Dilfer or Jim McMahon would be highly successful. And those guys are available every year.
Doesn't matter what the reasons or exucses are for past performance.
those guys are available every year because they aren't franchise QBs. It would be silly to think we can get by with a band aid to the QB position after Eli and not a future plan.
Record I'm not against drafting a QB at 2. Manning certainly is an older qb, the Giants are in a great position to possibly get another franchise type qb.
I think you try to win with Manning now, because I believe he still has it, while drafting a QB and let him come in when the time is right. Sooner or later
those guys are available every year because they aren't franchise QBs. It would be silly to think we can get by with a band aid to the QB position after Eli and not a future plan.
Like I said, I think we can win and by "win" I mean all the way. And, that's the most important to me. Beyond that, there's only so many bona fide franchsie QB's and just being your first pick doesn't mean that you're a franchise guy. And, there's nothing that screams (or even yells or talks a little loudly) franchise QB in 2018. But what does scream transcendent is a player at another area of need for us.
I don't think Eli is a factor in whether the Giants pick a QB or not
He is insurance for the time being, but we need a QB very soon and if after the Giants do their final assessment they will decide if any are worth the pick. Even if we didn't have a QB they would have to make that assessment. There is no question that we need a QB, maybe Webb is that guy but I am not so sure the GM would want someone else's opinion to decide the fate of the position because there is probably very little tape on him. If there is a QB they like they have to take him and not look back. If not they should try to trade the pick for more picks.
I don't want Barkley because I haven't seen a top RB win a championship for his team. They are a complimentary player. At 2 you need an all pro 10 year starter type and we are not just a th away from competing. I would rather the. Take Nelson because the odds of a guard lasting 10 years or more is much greater. Teams have proven time and time again that star tbs can be had in later rounds. Some QBs have been but it's a lot less likely.
I am of the opinion that Eli is done. The decline has started and he was not an elite QB coming down to above average, he is a good qb coming down to average at best. The problem I have with Eli at this point is that he is a terrible short range passer, always has been. I can't see him improving at his age. Aging QBs need to cut down on mistakes and gambles and be more of a game manager but Eli has been more of a long passer. Our last 5 years have been pretty bad aside from 2016 which was fools gold. It's time to move on.
My guess is that they like Webb but I doubt they are willing to put all their eggs in his basket just yet. He is not going to be a factor in drafting a QB or not. Look at SD with Brees many years ago. They still took a QB because they thought it was an upgrade.
Someone actually thinks the Giants can win the SB this year?
If you are hating on this signing, then you literally don't want The Org to have reputable players. Let's just go to war with the same roster who went 3-13 last year.
Guys like Norwell, Solder. Of course they won't singularly put us in the Super Bowl next season. The idea is they help the team rebound and grow in 2018. And because core players for the next NYG Contender, hopefully as soon as 2019.
Thrilly understands. It sucks that a guy like Nate Solder, who survived cancer and returned to play months later before his infant son was also diagnosed with cancer, earned a big contract. Impossible to root for a guy like that.
Dear Gettleman: please sign 1st Team All-Pro's in their early to mid 20s to league minimum salaries. Preferably guys without a family history of cancer. K thanks -- BBI dildos
RE: Someone actually thinks the Giants can win the SB this year?
If you look at any statistical measure, Eli has been a good but not great QB in the regular season throughout his career. He peaked around 2011 but even then he was not elite like his brother, Brady, or Rodgers.
The only stats where elite is elite is Super Bowl wins. He is a guy who raises his game in the playoffs. I would compare him to Claude Lemieux, a guy who was decent in the NHL regular seaslon but became the best player on the ice in the playoffs.
Most of his career Eli has been somewhere around the 8-12th best QB in the NFL. His career numbers are predicated on durability (very important for a QB), not because he was ever in a class with Brees or Peyton.
So, now he is probably the 12th best qb rather than the 7th or 8th. But he is still basically the same guy. Before, he was a bit overrated by Giants fans and we all would bristle when national media often failed to list Eli among the top QBs. Now, it has gone the other way, he is being undertated.
It is undeniable his game has declined a bit, but if you gave him the 2011 OL and Cruz and Nicks, he would still put numbers.
Put it this way. How many QB are entering their 15th year
of play. I'm a very big Eli fan, as a football player
and a man. I hope your 'take' on this is true.
But waiting on Eli and Webb is really gambling this year.
I remember YA Tittle, an older QB, who took the Giants
to 3 championships in a row, following year image is YA on his knees blood running down his face and the Giants beginning a generation of pain for Giant fans.
RE: RE: What were the other teams offers like for Solder?
I doubt DG/Giants outbid others by some crazy amount... 5-10% more, maybe?
If you need the guy then thats what it takes.
Supposedly the Giants outbid the Texans and Patriots.
Reason I ask... when Giants signed Vernon, $85m seemed too high. If I remember right, it turned out that the Giants outbid the next highest by $5m, which is a very reasonable premium ($5m/$80m) to get the deal done.
1) I'd temper the expectations of Flowers playing RT. In today's NFL elite pass rushers line up on both sides, so if he can't play LT he probably can't play RT that much better.
2) Signing Solder, any of the moves this offseason and Eli being here have no impact on the #2 pick, nor should they.
3) Sure Eli might have a better year than last year but he's not going to be the guy from 2011. Could he be 2016 Eli? Sure, but father time is undefeated so the odds are he gets worse.
4) The Giants have as good of a shot of making the playoffs as they do of going 3-13 again. The NFL is year to year and anything can happen. We should be mad about signing a player that will not only help this year but next year as well. You offset the Solder deal by finding a franchise LT in the draft that lines up with when his contract is cuttable.
but after looking at how the contract is structured, it seems like a good deal to me. It's essentially $10m this year, $17m next year and then $4m in dead cap for the final two years if he's cut. It's basically a 2-year contract where only one year is onerous. Giants didn't have another LT option in FA. Well done DG.
You guys are debating the contract. Of course we overpaid, thats how free agency works. Either you overpay or watch your guy play somewhere else. Its extremely rare that a guy wants to play for a team so bad he takes less than what everyone else is offering. When that team was in turmoil and 3-13 the previous year its even more rare.
Flowers improved a great deal last year as much as no one will admit it. The problem was all across the line, not just Flowers. So to determine he cant play RT either is a flawed analysis he is a young player and their is no reason to think that with multiple other positions across the line and a natural LT in place, a guard in the draft, and a better offense with better play calling that this team cant win now while continuing to rebuild the roster and improve our depth over time. A lot of you guys are very narrow minded.
If you are hating on this signing, then you literally don't want The Org to have reputable players. Let's just go to war with the same roster who went 3-13 last year.
Guys like Norwell, Solder. Of course they won't singularly put us in the Super Bowl next season. The idea is they help the team rebound and grow in 2018. And because core players for the next NYG Contender, hopefully as soon as 2019.
Thrilly understands. It sucks that a guy like Nate Solder, who survived cancer and returned to play months later before his infant son was also diagnosed with cancer, earned a big contract. Impossible to root for a guy like that.
Dear Gettleman: please sign 1st Team All-Pro's in their early to mid 20s to league minimum salaries. Preferably guys without a family history of cancer. K thanks -- BBI dildos
Using that logic, then the Giants have never made a mistake in overpaying any free agent they have signed since free agency began. Hell, re-signing JPP was a brilliant move!
that I prefer that we use free agency to fill a few big holes in the OL vs trying to patch it mostly via the draft. It is an extremely difficult position and finding free agents who have already proven themselves in this league is something I would prefer.
So, I am glad we got Solder.... or potentially signed him
Thats not the logic i used. I am not determining whether he or anyone else was a mistake, i am simply saying that either you outbid people or you dont get free agents and go into next season with the same holes and a few rookies
Also i think overpaying for a proven above average LT
is a lot smarter than overpaying for Norwell, despite the fact that Norwell is a better player at his position than Solder is. First, it is a lot easier to find a starting above average G in the draft on a rookie contract than it is to find a guy who can start at LT. Youre going to pay 12+ mil for a LT unless you get lucky in the draft no matter what. Paying 12+ mil for both a LT and a LG doesnt make any sense. Better to overpay the tackle and draft a guard taking into account the options available
Overpaying to get an "anchor" for the OL was inevitable. I don't like these huge contracts anymore than you do. I want to see the line when he's finished. I'm reserving my judgement until then. It seems like he has correctly evaluated the biggest disaster areas on the roster is OL and LB. If he can put together decent units within the cap room they had than you would have to say he's done a good job. It's not the worst contract I've ever seen either.
Available in the first 2 rounds of the draft who i would be comfortable probably starting games tomorrow. There is zero tackles available in this draft who I would be comfortable starting at LT next year. Im glad we overpaid for Solder instead of Norwell even though it was probably an accident
that I prefer that we use free agency to fill a few big holes in the OL vs trying to patch it mostly via the draft. It is an extremely difficult position and finding free agents who have already proven themselves in this league is something I would prefer.
So, I am glad we got Solder.... or potentially signed him
Im sorry but I disagree....If you are using FA to fill your teams Big Hole then that tells me the GM is terrible at Drafting...
Example- Reese was so bad at drafting OL-DL-CB that he needed to spend serious cash on DL-CB and now Gettleman OL
So, he's not using this FA as a way to cover up his shitty drafting - he's using this FA as a way to cover up Reese's.
Why does it matter where the player comes from?
You have to address certain holes one way or another.
If we drafted Damon Harrison, he'd probably still be here making what he's making now. (Well, maybe not given the way Reese treated the DT position.. but you get the idea)
Some of you guys are looking in the wrong direction.
It's not signing FA's that is the problem - it's drafting poorly.
We have a new GM because the last one had several poor drafts. Now Gettleman is going to have to up his hit% because you cannot rebuild and fix a football team if you blow your drafts.
that I prefer that we use free agency to fill a few big holes in the OL vs trying to patch it mostly via the draft. It is an extremely difficult position and finding free agents who have already proven themselves in this league is something I would prefer.
So, I am glad we got Solder.... or potentially signed him
Im sorry but I disagree....If you are using FA to fill your teams Big Hole then that tells me the GM is terrible at Drafting...
Example- Reese was so bad at drafting OL-DL-CB that he needed to spend serious cash on DL-CB and now Gettleman OL
lol, what?
It's really super weird that fans of this team would even try to have
the take that free agency is some kind of devil worship or fools gold. The entire Eli era was build on a rebuild around Plaxico Burress, McKenzie, O'hara, Pierce, Madison, etc.
Kerry Collins was a free agent pickup.
How many free agents were on the team that went to the super bowl against Baltimore?
For the people who think Tom Coughlin is the best thing to happen to this franchise and knows more about football than anyone, he just paid a Guard $13m a year.
He drafted several DT's that other teams felt were worth giving sizable 2nd contracts to and just drafted another one who is on the team now (Tomlinson)
He was also the one who drafted JPP.
Want to say that Reese was bad at drafting offensive linemen or linebackers? No argument there.
more players arent ready for the pros, more 1st round busts it seems (especially on the OL), but the cap keeps going up so who fucking cares?
DG isnt responsible for a single player that is on the roster outside of the few he just signed and traded for. Hes going to pay money to upgrade certain positions and we are going to draft others which will hopefully turn into a better pipeline long term.
He drafted several DT's that other teams felt were worth giving sizable 2nd contracts to and just drafted another one who is on the team now (Tomlinson)
He was also the one who drafted JPP.
Want to say that Reese was bad at drafting offensive linemen or linebackers? No argument there.
Defensive linemen? Nope.
Agreed
They literally rolled from Fred Robbins to Barry Cofield to Linval
People complained that they wouldn't re-sign their DTs, but trusting your ability to draft replacements is a goldmine. If you can get that plug in and play DT every year, why would you pay out the nose to keep him?
RE: They literally rolled from Fred Robbins to Barry Cofield to Linval
People complained that they wouldn't re-sign their DTs, but trusting your ability to draft replacements is a goldmine. If you can get that plug in and play DT every year, why would you pay out the nose to keep him?
Exactly. Would be real nice if we could get a good cycle going on the OL too
Here's my bottom line with the Nate Solder deal...
...you make that kind of move for that kind of money if you really believe you are one or two key players/positions away from a serious run at the Super Bowl.
The Giants are trying to get out of the NFL basement, and paying mega-dollars for a 30-year old LT isn't the way to go IMO.
I've read on this thread about how Solder is here whether he's protecting Eli or a brand new QB.
I don't find that so reassuring.
Why?
Because maybe by the time Rosen/Darnold/Allen is ready for full-time play, Solder may be on his last legs.
We paid too much for one middle-aged guy when we need so many other guys for the long term.
the problem with that is they arent in the NFL basement. They played all of 2017 without their best player and under a coach whos one of the biggest dolts Ive ever seen in the sport. The wheels fell off from there and everything that could go wrong did go wrong.
We were 11-5 prior to that and theres no reason we cant go right back there, we see it happen every year.
So I disagree. Pay the LT, have a good draft, get your best player back, and get this team up to speed on the current trends of the league (our new HC and DC should be able to do this).
People here bitch that we don't pay attention to the OL. DG goes out and signs a solid LT, the most important position on the line, and guess what? PEOPLE STILL BITCH. I swear some of you will NEVER be happy. It's truly amazing.
but he's not actually an 8-win shift on his own. There are many reasons this team fell apart, and you can't just write them in for getting right back to playoffs contention because they fired the coach. Everything about this team is being changed. We should really manage expectations, especially when you're scrapping the entire scheme on both sides of the ball and everybody is starting from zero in terms of knowing what their job is.
Also, can we make it a prerequisite that when someone whines about asset allocation that they offer a viable alternative?
I'm so fucking tired of reading through post after post complaining about how we should use our cap dollars differently followed by zero insight or suggestion as to how or who that money would be better spent on.
but he's not actually an 8-win shift on his own. There are many reasons this team fell apart, and you can't just write them in for getting right back to playoffs contention because they fired the coach. Everything about this team is being changed. We should really manage expectations, especially when you're scrapping the entire scheme on both sides of the ball and everybody is starting from zero in terms of knowing what their job is.
No one said he was. But hes certainly the biggest reason why we stunk last year, whether thats a 2 or 3 game swing isnt the point. Between him, the injuries elsewhere, the inability to sustain drives with a run game, and a defense that just stopped playing we found ourselves where we are now.
But McAdoos 1st season as HC was 11-5, rookie HCs are having a lot of success. Theres no reasons we cant get back into the thick of things.
The Browns went 0-16 and with Thomas retiring, getting Solder would have been big for them too. They have no QB, and are in the actual basement, should they not try upgrade LT?
This notion that only contenders should spend in FA is just stupid.
Also, can we make it a prerequisite that when someone whines about asset allocation that they offer a viable alternative?
I'm so fucking tired of reading through post after post complaining about how we should use our cap dollars differently followed by zero insight or suggestion as to how or who that money would be better spent on.
I did that exact thing in 2016 and repeated it several times when asked. Didn't matter.
the problem with that is they arent in the NFL basement. They played all of 2017 without their best player and under a coach whos one of the biggest dolts Ive ever seen in the sport. The wheels fell off from there and everything that could go wrong did go wrong.
We were 11-5 prior to that and theres no reason we cant go right back there, we see it happen every year.
So I disagree. Pay the LT, have a good draft, get your best player back, and get this team up to speed on the current trends of the league (our new HC and DC should be able to do this).
Basement or playoffs? In the context of the last 5 years I see 2016's 11-5 record as an aberration. That's why I say we are more basement than playoff contender.
In any event, I'm with you... let's go out there and have a good draft!
Imo the only qb they would consider is Darnold. You can't be half pregnant. If you take a qb let him play and take his lumps. Its not like years ago where guys could sit. Once they committed to eli they committed to winning. They either take Barkley or accumulate more picks. This also gives Shurmers time to evaluate Webb. Make no mistake though the giants are going for it now
Going for what? We stink. 3-13 is no joke. Eli was terrible and was never a great QB despite 2 SB MVPs. Hes not his brother and was never a top tier guy. We need to be honest with ourselves and admit it. Love the guy, but hes probably done. Draft a QB. Give Eli a year and move on. I hope this is the plan and you are wrong.
Also, can we make it a prerequisite that when someone whines about asset allocation that they offer a viable alternative?
I'm so fucking tired of reading through post after post complaining about how we should use our cap dollars differently followed by zero insight or suggestion as to how or who that money would be better spent on.
I did that exact thing in 2016 and repeated it several times when asked. Didn't matter.
It just gives the argument actual substance and gives it somewhere to go.
If you say "I don't like this signing - we could have spent better money elsewhere," but follow that up by saying "here's who I would have targeted instead," I may not agree with it, but I can at least see where you're going with it.
People constantly complain when the Giants spend money but don't serve up any other solutions. A lot of it seems like complaining just to complain.
I feel like discussions just don't go anywhere when people do that and I see it all the time.
Also, can we make it a prerequisite that when someone whines about asset allocation that they offer a viable alternative?
I'm so fucking tired of reading through post after post complaining about how we should use our cap dollars differently followed by zero insight or suggestion as to how or who that money would be better spent on.
I did that exact thing in 2016 and repeated it several times when asked. Didn't matter.
It just gives the argument actual substance and gives it somewhere to go.
If you say "I don't like this signing - we could have spent better money elsewhere," but follow that up by saying "here's who I would have targeted instead," I may not agree with it, but I can at least see where you're going with it.
People constantly complain when the Giants spend money but don't serve up any other solutions. A lot of it seems like complaining just to complain.
I feel like discussions just don't go anywhere when people do that and I see it all the time.
The Giants got destroyed for drafting poorly & flat out ignoring the line the last few years, and now signing a legitimate LT (toughest position to fill) is getting criticized. Maybe these same people bashed the Giants for not signing Whitworth last year.
and still isn't. I don't care how well he played. You're also not guaranteed to die if you shoot yourself in the lung, that doesn't mean you should take the chance.
and still isn't. I don't care how well he played. You're also not guaranteed to die if you shoot yourself in the lung, that doesn't mean you should take the chance.
that I prefer that we use free agency to fill a few big holes in the OL vs trying to patch it mostly via the draft. It is an extremely difficult position and finding free agents who have already proven themselves in this league is something I would prefer.
So, I am glad we got Solder.... or potentially signed him
Im sorry but I disagree....If you are using FA to fill your teams Big Hole then that tells me the GM is terrible at Drafting...
Example- Reese was so bad at drafting OL-DL-CB that he needed to spend serious cash on DL-CB and now Gettleman OL
Are you blaming Gettleman for our OL problems? It sounds like it with your comparison ... unless you are saying that Gettleman has to spend money on the OL because of Reese?
RE: Signing a 36 year old tackle to years and money wasn't a good idea
and still isn't. I don't care how well he played. You're also not guaranteed to die if you shoot yourself in the lung, that doesn't mean you should take the chance.
People here bitch that we don't pay attention to the OL. DG goes out and signs a solid LT, the most important position on the line, and guess what? PEOPLE STILL BITCH. I swear some of you will NEVER be happy. It's truly amazing.
You see, they want good players, but they want them to all play for free.
..and most of them are 10 years behind the times on player salaries.
As much as I wanted Norwell, it's not like they didn't try.
is a big fan of the Solder to Giants. Link - ( New Window )
Couldn't believe what I was hearing last bight on TV. Charlie Casserly was a NY Giants fan as a kid. It was on some show and they were discussing free agency money and what folks would do with it (after taking care of family, etc...).
CC says "I would buy all the 1956 Giant's Football cards - the entire team" and then proceeded to mention Frank Gifford, Rosie Grier, (and about 4-5 other players).... I couldn't believe it. I thought he was a Dallas guy.
"The #Giants are expected to sign former #Patriots LT Nate Solder, source said. They get their franchise left tackle. Huge get."
At his age it is a stop gap move at best ... not saying that Solder won't be productive at all but, "Franchise Left Tackle"?
2 years tops - he lasts.
Why wont he last more than 2 years? So many stupid comments here, its unreal.
Yeah why not 1 year? Or no years?
This place is incredible.
Seriously hes only 30, so many idiots here.
30 ... my bad thought he was 32. Okay so that is a little bit younger but, saying we found our franchise LT. at this point in his career is a bit of a stretch. I guess it could depend on the position but, I figure you need to play for a team (on the OL in this case) for about 7-8 years to be considered a franchise anything (QBs longer).
Not saying I don't like the signing. I just think it is a stop gap move. Could be a longer than usual stop gap but, we will see.
Right now I'll take 3-4 years of competent LT play.
You don't know much about football do you? Eli was never top tier? He's a hall of fame. Anyway, I'm telling you I believe eli has good football left. Well see. He'll have a chance to shut you up this year
"The #Giants are expected to sign former #Patriots LT Nate Solder, source said. They get their franchise left tackle. Huge get."
At his age it is a stop gap move at best ... not saying that Solder won't be productive at all but, "Franchise Left Tackle"?
2 years tops - he lasts.
Why wont he last more than 2 years? So many stupid comments here, its unreal.
Yeah why not 1 year? Or no years?
This place is incredible.
Seriously hes only 30, so many idiots here.
30 ... my bad thought he was 32. Okay so that is a little bit younger but, saying we found our franchise LT. at this point in his career is a bit of a stretch. I guess it could depend on the position but, I figure you need to play for a team (on the OL in this case) for about 7-8 years to be considered a franchise anything (QBs longer).
Not saying I don't like the signing. I just think it is a stop gap move. Could be a longer than usual stop gap but, we will see.
Actually the other thing I like about this signing is it hastens the move to another position of Flowers. I doubt they will make Solder play somewhere else on the OL? Lets see what Flower can do at RT ... or (I would prefer he gets moved to) guard. I think he will make an excellent guard eventually.
I don't think he was ever a top 5 guy. Look at the era he played in and who the other QBs were around the league. We might look back on 2004 to 2015 as a golden age for QB play. You can love the guy and be honest that he's simply not Brady, Brees, Peyton, Rodgers.
I don't think he was ever a top 5 guy. Look at the era he played in and who the other QBs were around the league. We might look back on 2004 to 2015 as a golden age for QB play. You can love the guy and be honest that he's simply not Brady, Brees, Peyton, Rodgers.
He was certainly top 10.
Absolutely. And was there, EVERY game. And had a penchant for winning it in the closing minutes by being fearless.
Eli Manning was a franchise QB, and a outstanding draft choice.
RE: RE: As much as I wanted Norwell, it's not like they didn't try.
At least they got someone who can play. I just don't know what to take from this as regards the draft.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
Norwell's four years younger. You can build around that.
Solder isn't ancient by any stretch, but signing a guy like that suggests to me they are leaning more heavily toward moves that make the team competitive in the short term rather than laying the foundation for the long term. I don't think you sign a guy at 30 if you're working on plan that you expect to return to meaningful games and consistent winning in two years.
At least they got someone who can play. I just don't know what to take from this as regards the draft.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
Norwell's four years younger. You can build around that.
Solder isn't ancient by any stretch, but signing a guy like that suggests to me they are leaning more heavily toward moves that make the team competitive in the short term rather than laying the foundation for the long term. I don't think you sign a guy at 30 if you're working on plan that you expect to return to meaningful games and consistent winning in two years.
Whats the difference between Solder playing solid LT for 4 years and Norwells contract expiring after 5? 1 year means our entire thought process at OL changes?
I just dont get this line of thinking. We didnt sign a 35 year old tackle . We signed a guy who can help us now and 2 years from now.
RE: RE: RE: RE: As much as I wanted Norwell, it's not like they didn't try.
At least they got someone who can play. I just don't know what to take from this as regards the draft.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
Norwell's four years younger. You can build around that.
Solder isn't ancient by any stretch, but signing a guy like that suggests to me they are leaning more heavily toward moves that make the team competitive in the short term rather than laying the foundation for the long term. I don't think you sign a guy at 30 if you're working on plan that you expect to return to meaningful games and consistent winning in two years.
Whats the difference between Solder playing solid LT for 4 years and Norwells contract expiring after 5? 1 year means our entire thought process at OL changes?
I just dont get this line of thinking. We didnt sign a 35 year old tackle . We signed a guy who can help us now and 2 years from now.
Exactly.
Plus, you continue to try to develop guys that can possibly step in and succeed.
And remember, OL's generally play longer than other positions in regards to age. Not a rule, but there's some history there.
Serious progress in repairing the Giants has been made. I did not believe that would be possible during the horror of last season. I am very happy to have been wrong about that. These FA threads have been super-informative and, well, have restored my confidence in the team's future.
RE: RE: RE: RE: As much as I wanted Norwell, it's not like they didn't try.
At least they got someone who can play. I just don't know what to take from this as regards the draft.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
Norwell's four years younger. You can build around that.
Solder isn't ancient by any stretch, but signing a guy like that suggests to me they are leaning more heavily toward moves that make the team competitive in the short term rather than laying the foundation for the long term. I don't think you sign a guy at 30 if you're working on plan that you expect to return to meaningful games and consistent winning in two years.
Whats the difference between Solder playing solid LT for 4 years and Norwells contract expiring after 5? 1 year means our entire thought process at OL changes?
I just dont get this line of thinking. We didnt sign a 35 year old tackle . We signed a guy who can help us now and 2 years from now.
The difference is maximizing the use of the player while he's in his best years. You sign a guy at 30, you don't sit around. There are expectations and rightfully so. A younger player does buy you a bit of time to construct a roster. And if you are actively trying to win now, there's plenty of argument for kicking the QB need can further down the road. If that's their plan, which I have no idea about, I don't think that's wise.
to put together a line that could pass block, despite its being the highest priority for the last three or even four years.
The last two seasons it's not an exaggeration that Eli often had two seconds to get rid of the ball. When OBJ was playing, Eli looked for him first and in the limited time he had he would throw it to OBJ, even if he was triple covered. Beckham was good enough to catch difficult passes and do something with the ball.
Last year no Beckham, no offense.
Reese embarrassed Eli by forcing him, one of the least mobile quarterbacks, to have to play with the weakest line. His rep has been permanently damaged.
If you have a mobile quarterback, poor pass protection is not as big a disaster. The QB can dodge a blitzer (saw enough of them sidestepping Giants' rushes last year) and when he leaves the pocket he's a threat to pull the ball down and run. Not that you want your QB to run the ball, but the threat of a run, as we have seen many times, causes the secondary to hesitate, not knowing whether to stick with the receiver or come up to stop the possible run.
If this team really intends to bring Eli back next season, there would no hope unless the blocking improved. And there is still a lot of work to do.
a #1 TE, and now the highest paid Left Tackle in the game.
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
RE: Right now I'll take 3-4 years of competent LT play.
a #1 TE, and now the highest paid Left Tackle in the game.
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Another piece or two to upgrade the OL. A 3rd WR, and a HC/OC who can put a good game plan in place along with changing personnel so they don't have the same guys on the field 90% of the time. Oh and some NFL quality play calling would help too.
You don't know much about football do you? Eli was never top tier? He's a hall of fame. Anyway, I'm telling you I believe eli has good football left. Well see. He'll have a chance to shut you up this year
Thank god you didn't say he is going to eat crow. You said that 4-5 times in the same thread earlier today. We get it. You love Eli.
Top tier implies a top 5 QB. Outside of 2011 (My favorite season in 20 years as a fan due to the brilliance of Eli), Eli never reached that level. From 2008-2012 he was a top ten/fringe top 10 QB. But that was a long time ago.
I agree he deserves the HOF at some point, but you continue to act like he hasn't aged and he is still the same player he was in his prime. He was well below average in 2016 (27th in QBR) and was atrocious last year. It is what it is. He is over the hill. We should be looking to the long term options at QB.
a #1 TE, and now the highest paid Left Tackle in the game.
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
a #1 TE, and now the highest paid Left Tackle in the game.
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
An all-pro running back.
Disagree with me if you want but, if we add Barkley (I admit he never played 1 down in the NFL) in the draft, think about this line up.
Eli (admittedly getting close to the end. OL has got to be built fast and furiously). If he has protection, I believe he can still do it but, they would have to be in the SB in 2020.
Saquon Barkley - Never played a down in the NFL but, if he lives up to his billing .....?
Engram - looked very good as a rookie.
and last but not least - Odell.
In 2 years that line-up (plus throw in a few more unexpected/hidden gems accumulated along the way) ...that line-up will scare defenses
I also haven't posted this in awhile so this is just for you jt
I said it multiple times just because people like you keep saying the same things to me. I get it you and others think he's declined. Actual nfl people don't think he has not do I. Believe it or not your entitled to your opinion but you will see you are wrong imo. Dont be a hypocrite. You attack me for stating my opinion yet its ok for people like you to state he's regressed as fact. Your a hypocrite. That's a fact
I have spoken to scouts and an analyst of people in the league who all agree eli has good ball left. Go watch the tape of the packet playoff game. Go count how many people he played with most of last year due to injuries. Most won't even be in the league next year. I get it you think he's done. I don't. I'm pretty confident the giants don't. Well see but when he plays well this year man up and admit your wrong
Its ok to disagree. Either way he's our qb for at least this year. Its fair to say well see who's right. I stand by my opinion and in not alone. Neither are you. Well see
I said it multiple times just because people like you keep saying the same things to me. I get it you and others think he's declined. Actual nfl people don't think he has not do I. Believe it or not your entitled to your opinion but you will see you are wrong imo. Dont be a hypocrite. You attack me for stating my opinion yet its ok for people like you to state he's regressed as fact. Your a hypocrite. That's a fact
Look, I apologize for coming at you so strongly. You and I have never debated this like I have with Britt and others in your corner. Do you really believe that Eli has not declined as a player? Yes, the front office has dealt him a poor hand in recent years, but he no longer has the ability to elevate players around him.
In spite of the fact that he has always been frustratingly turnover prone, he used to sling the ball all over the field with authority. He also used to have great pocket awareness.
Now he is seeing ghosts and has lost his intermediate/deep ball accuracy. He got sacked in week 2 this year against the Lions without getting touched.
He may still look young, but he plays old. I know it is hard to let go of a franchise legend, but it is in the best interest of this franchise to select a QB for the future, even if they are trying to win in 2018.
Fair enough. I respect your opinion. I agree he sees ghosts now but I also really believe he has more left than most. Well see. This off-season is unique as the fan base in general is largely divided on multiple fronts
One question. What if they take a qb but your wrong? What if we win games and eli plays well? Are you comfortable with a kid sitting 2 years? If Mara didn't cut eli now would he really cut him off a good year? To me That's something that needs serious discussion. The 2nd pick in the draft can't sit for 2 years imo
a #1 TE, and now the highest paid Left Tackle in the game.
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Another piece or two to upgrade the OL. A 3rd WR, and a HC/OC who can put a good game plan in place along with changing personnel so they don't have the same guys on the field 90% of the time. Oh and some NFL quality play calling would help too.
anything else? are you sure he doesn't need some more pieces to succeed??
One question. What if they take a qb but your wrong? What if we win games and eli plays well? Are you comfortable with a kid sitting 2 years? If Mara didn't cut eli now would he really cut him off a good year? To me That's something that needs serious discussion. The 2nd pick in the draft can't sit for 2 years imo
i wouldn't worry too much about this scenario...
Let me know when time helped a 38 year old QB to start playing well...
Are all in their twilight as well....and can lead their teams
Age is not what it used to be....
Eli definitely has not trusted the OL. He has gotten gun-shy and needs to overcome his happy feet.
But I totally believe Eli still can deliver the goods. He was the best player on the field in that last playoff game. He can still sling it. I think they lead the league in dropped passes.
Give him protection.....we will start scoring again.
plain and simple. Gettleman let's Pugh out the door, whiffs on Norwell, and is left with making Nate Solder the highest paid tackle in the league to get him to come on board.
Of course we're all in favor of the Giants improving the line, with the understanding that it costs money - but this was not a savvy move. Solder may not even be a top 10 tackle in the NFL, yet they're giving him $34 mil guaranteed. Huge gamble that can really set the franchise back if it doesn't work out.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: As much as I wanted Norwell, it's not like they didn't try.
At least they got someone who can play. I just don't know what to take from this as regards the draft.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
Norwell's four years younger. You can build around that.
Solder isn't ancient by any stretch, but signing a guy like that suggests to me they are leaning more heavily toward moves that make the team competitive in the short term rather than laying the foundation for the long term. I don't think you sign a guy at 30 if you're working on plan that you expect to return to meaningful games and consistent winning in two years.
Whats the difference between Solder playing solid LT for 4 years and Norwells contract expiring after 5? 1 year means our entire thought process at OL changes?
I just dont get this line of thinking. We didnt sign a 35 year old tackle . We signed a guy who can help us now and 2 years from now.
The difference is maximizing the use of the player while he's in his best years. You sign a guy at 30, you don't sit around. There are expectations and rightfully so. A younger player does buy you a bit of time to construct a roster. And if you are actively trying to win now, there's plenty of argument for kicking the QB need can further down the road. If that's their plan, which I have no idea about, I don't think that's wise.
Nor well got paid as the top Guard in the NFL, theres no waiting around for him to be good either. Signing Norwell doesnt mean we have more time to build a roster, the return on his investment starts now.
Solder and Norwells age are irrelevant in this scenario. If we signed either it would be to get better instantly, not in 2 years from now.
plain and simple. Gettleman let's Pugh out the door, whiffs on Norwell, and is left with making Nate Solder the highest paid tackle in the league to get him to come on board.
Of course we're all in favor of the Giants improving the line, with the understanding that it costs money - but this was not a savvy move. Solder may not even be a top 10 tackle in the NFL, yet they're giving him $34 mil guaranteed. Huge gamble that can really set the franchise back if it doesn't work out.
You're exaggerating plain and simple. I don't know about the "really set the franchise back" bit. This team is still looking to have a good amount of cap room next season, and more big contracts coming off the books with Eli and JPP.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Another piece or two to upgrade the OL. A 3rd WR, and a HC/OC who can put a good game plan in place along with changing personnel so they don't have the same guys on the field 90% of the time. Oh and some NFL quality play calling would help too. [/quote]
So your saying that Eli really needs to have perfect conditions. Considering he has a "generational talent" at WR already, some really good pieces in Engram/Shephard, and we just signed 2 OL and 1 is very good.
Id wager alot of NFL QBs can succeed with that scenario. Good coaching, Good OL, awesome WRs.
By your own words on this thread you should be happy with this signing. You thought Solder was 32 and would have 2 years. He just turned 30. Logically then you should think he has 4 years left of good play. Which is the length of his contract.
In terms of salary he will be making over $2 million more per year than the player closest to him (currently Norwell).
He's a "good" player being paid like he's a future hall of famer. You can call me Mr. glass half empty, but if this continues to be Gettleman's approach to free agency it will not be sustainable.
In terms of salary he will be making over $2 million more per year than the player closest to him (currently Norwell).
He's a "good" player being paid like he's a future hall of famer. You can call me Mr. glass half empty, but if this continues to be Gettleman's approach to free agency it will not be sustainable.
I guess you haven't been paying attention to the contracts for FAs this year.
In terms of salary he will be making over $2 million more per year than the player closest to him (currently Norwell).
He's a "good" player being paid like he's a future hall of famer. You can call me Mr. glass half empty, but if this continues to be Gettleman's approach to free agency it will not be sustainable.
That is only 1) if he plays out his contract and 2) that could very well change with the next big OL signing as this will be model. Years 3 & 4 it costs substantially more to retain Solder than the cap hit for cutting him.
There is a real undercurrent on this site that if you try to win games
over the next two years, that you are doing a disservice to the franchise, the NFL, and maybe to the entire planet.
Solder helps us win now and will help the "transition" to the future. His signing simply means that we don't actually *need* to the "Trust the Process" or "let's get Mark Cuban fined" route that some people seem to want to embark upon.
And, since it always seem to come back to Eli, it's odd that the criticism is that he is no longer able to elevate shitty players around him. The solution, logically, would therefore be to not put shitty players around him, but instead put good players around him and remove the elevation burden.
But then, when you attempt to surround him with a stellar #1 WR, a quality #3 WR (Shep is a 3 not a 2), a potentially quality TE, and a quality OL, the plan is met with derision that includes extreme resistance to additionally adding a potentially superlative rushing attack.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Another piece or two to upgrade the OL. A 3rd WR, and a HC/OC who can put a good game plan in place along with changing personnel so they don't have the same guys on the field 90% of the time. Oh and some NFL quality play calling would help too.
So your saying that Eli really needs to have perfect conditions. Considering he has a "generational talent" at WR already, some really good pieces in Engram/Shephard, and we just signed 2 OL and 1 is very good.
Id wager alot of NFL QBs can succeed with that scenario. Good coaching, Good OL, awesome WRs. [/quote]It's freaking bizarre that it's a negative to try to have breadth in good players.
In terms of salary he will be making over $2 million more per year than the player closest to him (currently Norwell).
He's a "good" player being paid like he's a future hall of famer. You can call me Mr. glass half empty, but if this continues to be Gettleman's approach to free agency it will not be sustainable.
Its 1 signing to get the 2nd hardest position to fill in football which has the most significant impact on the #1 most difficult position to fill in football.
Gettelman made 2 other signings yesterday which werent for the highest paid guys at their positions. So what on earth are you worried about?
I don't get it. I keep hearing people clamor for a "complete overhaul", yet a fair portion of the roster will turn over, we have a new coach, GM and assistants, and we have guys we know we'll be replacing next year to free up cap space and all I keep hear after every signing is that these new players are getting in the way of the "2-3 year rebuild".
I honestly don't know what the fuck most of BBI is talking about anymore.
I don't get it. I keep hearing people clamor for a "complete overhaul", yet a fair portion of the roster will turn over, we have a new coach, GM and assistants, and we have guys we know we'll be replacing next year to free up cap space and all I keep hear after every signing is that these new players are getting in the way of the "2-3 year rebuild".
I honestly don't know what the fuck most of BBI is talking about anymore.
That's pretty much how I feel at this point. Look - I love this place. And I respect everyone's posts and opinions. But when you ask for something, you get it, and then you still bitch, that's when you lose me.
one of the main things on this board lately is posters who think that if you can't admit that the Giants are 6-7 years away from going to the Super Bowl then somehow you are delusional.
The Jaguars were about 5 minutes away from the Super Bowl last year after being quite literally the worst team in the league for multiple years. They have a QB who isn't good at all. But what happened? They changed the coach, the culture, beefed up the lines, and got a legit all pro running back. So unless that didn't happen, the Giants can compete next year. They can compete the year after, and the year after. Will they? I'm not sure. But it's possible.
a #1 TE, and now the highest paid Left Tackle in the game.
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Another piece or two to upgrade the OL. A 3rd WR, and a HC/OC who can put a good game plan in place along with changing personnel so they don't have the same guys on the field 90% of the time. Oh and some NFL quality play calling would help too.
anything else? are you sure he doesn't need some more pieces to succeed??
Nah, that would be it. I'd say it's more about some competent coaching/game planning than having a lot more pieces on the field. They've addressed the OLine which was a must, and will be getting a healthy OBJ back but still need another WR IMO
I don't think many if any QBs would've been putting up 30 points last year with what Eli had with him, both on the field and on the sidelines.
got a new head coach, signed Whitworth (which I was against due to age) and then had one of the best offenses in the NFL going 11-5. Gurley, in a new offense under he new HC had one of he best seasons in history at the RB position.
So was signing an aging tackle a part of that playoff run or did he hinder it? I was wrong about how hed hold up, I fully admit t. We signed a guy 6 years younger but somehow he will hold up the future of the team?
The nfl doesnt operate in 5+ year cycles anymore, its not 1990. You can change on a dime, I dont know how many example of this some of you people need.
Even Vernon, who while not incredible these last 2 years has been very good. His presence here is a good thing. Hes a playmaking versatile disruptor who will betcher get this D going yet for many people here Vernon is seen as dead weight all due to over stated salary.
The best teams going all over pay in FA. Its part of the deal. Sticker shock every frickin year from a bunch of people .. every one. And in most cases these same fans are overstating their concerns based on a faulty understanding of the players salary or cap.
The only concern is if a player cant play. Some exceptions like the dolphins paying suh super elite qb money when they didnt even have a qb or identy.
Suh needed to go somewhere with better insulation.
Just relax about the money. Maybe this team has more talent than some of you. When you look at the PLAYERS on this front 7 and allow for a little belief that these guys can adapt to the 3-4 this could be a nasty unit.
Oh yeah, we have a LT that can play allowing flowers to try other positions. Nothing else needs to be said. Pay that dude!! And be happy about it!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: As much as I wanted Norwell, it's not like they didn't try.
Nor well got paid as the top Guard in the NFL, theres no waiting around for him to be good either. Signing Norwell doesnt mean we have more time to build a roster, the return on his investment starts now.
Solder and Norwells age are irrelevant in this scenario. If we signed either it would be to get better instantly, not in 2 years from now.
By definition, signing a younger player means you're getting more of his prime years. So yes, you do have more time. It's not irrelevant and we're not going to agree on this. A contract that gives you more of a players best years is better than a contract that gives you less of a player's best years.
RE: There is a real undercurrent on this site that if you try to win games
over the next two years, that you are doing a disservice to the franchise, the NFL, and maybe to the entire planet.
Solder helps us win now and will help the "transition" to the future. His signing simply means that we don't actually *need* to the "Trust the Process" or "let's get Mark Cuban fined" route that some people seem to want to embark upon.
And, since it always seem to come back to Eli, it's odd that the criticism is that he is no longer able to elevate shitty players around him. The solution, logically, would therefore be to not put shitty players around him, but instead put good players around him and remove the elevation burden.
But then, when you attempt to surround him with a stellar #1 WR, a quality #3 WR (Shep is a 3 not a 2), a potentially quality TE, and a quality OL, the plan is met with derision that includes extreme resistance to additionally adding a potentially superlative rushing attack.
It's pretty weird. Only thing I can think of is that the Giants aren't doing things the way they think they should be done, therefore it's doomed to fail.
RE: Whats even funnier is the Rams were 4-12 in 2016
got a new head coach, signed Whitworth (which I was against due to age) and then had one of the best offenses in the NFL going 11-5. Gurley, in a new offense under he new HC had one of he best seasons in history at the RB position.
So was signing an aging tackle a part of that playoff run or did he hinder it? I was wrong about how hed hold up, I fully admit t. We signed a guy 6 years younger but somehow he will hold up the future of the team?
The nfl doesnt operate in 5+ year cycles anymore, its not 1990. You can change on a dime, I dont know how many example of this some of you people need.
The league is built for teams to go worst to first, and it happens with more and more frequency every year.
One question. What if they take a qb but your wrong? What if we win games and eli plays well? Are you comfortable with a kid sitting 2 years? If Mara didn't cut eli now would he really cut him off a good year? To me That's something that needs serious discussion. The 2nd pick in the draft can't sit for 2 years imo
Yes, I am comfortable with that. The last thing we need is the Giants rolling the dice with Eli and being stuck as an 8-8 team with no QB in a couple years. Then they have to sacrifice a ton of assets to move up to get one. I would rather they take one now, even if they believe Eli still has something left.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: As much as I wanted Norwell, it's not like they didn't try.
Nor well got paid as the top Guard in the NFL, theres no waiting around for him to be good either. Signing Norwell doesnt mean we have more time to build a roster, the return on his investment starts now.
Solder and Norwells age are irrelevant in this scenario. If we signed either it would be to get better instantly, not in 2 years from now.
By definition, signing a younger player means you're getting more of his prime years. So yes, you do have more time. It's not irrelevant and we're not going to agree on this. A contract that gives you more of a players best years is better than a contract that gives you less of a player's best years.
We actually do agree on that, you just werent doing a good job of explaining that or I simply wasnt understanding you. But Solder isnt 35 so I guess Im just not worried about it.
got a new head coach, signed Whitworth (which I was against due to age) and then had one of the best offenses in the NFL going 11-5. Gurley, in a new offense under he new HC had one of he best seasons in history at the RB position.
So was signing an aging tackle a part of that playoff run or did he hinder it? I was wrong about how hed hold up, I fully admit t. We signed a guy 6 years younger but somehow he will hold up the future of the team?
The nfl doesnt operate in 5+ year cycles anymore, its not 1990. You can change on a dime, I dont know how many example of this some of you people need.
Sure, Whitworth absolutely helped them. The criticism of the idea of signing him was not about his ability to help a team in the first year. That was expected. It was about giving a big guarantee and multiple years given his age.And also about having completely legitimate and fair concerns about a guy that age staying healthy even for that first year.
And I'm not sure if I'm being difficult to understand or not, but I thought my opinion was fairly clear. I don't have a problem with Solder. However, if signing Nate Solder to that contract at 30 means the Giants think they're some kind of serious playoffs contender they want to build around Eli Manning expecting him to play well into his age 39 season, and they pass on the chance to draft a QB in favor of trading down or whatever, then I think it's another mistake by management just like sinking all your hopes on the health on a 36 year old lineman would have been for us. That's all.
and also be a solid LT when Eli is done? And Solder being added would help Darnold or Rosen in 2019 (neither is playing this year if we draft them) and he would also help Barkley if we go that route.
and also be a solid LT when Eli is done? And Solder being added would help Darnold or Rosen in 2019 (neither is playing this year if we draft them) and he would also help Barkley if we go that route.
being good the next 2 years and Darnold sitting behind Eli is easily the best case scenario.
Exactly!
Heres the thing theres nothing wrong with believing Eli has a little something left and being open to drafting the qb here in April. Matter of fact thats probably the only way to think. It seems that some need to align themselves with thinking Eli is completely and having to draft a qb at all costs or thinking Eli has 4 years of awesomeness and avoiding the young qb like the plague.
Its possible that the Giants feel eli is nearing the end or at the end BUT they dont love the qbs in this draft. Then what? You cant force the issue and take a qb just because.
You have to allow for variances or grey area in this thing.
like Solder are being signed to upgrade a position of need. It isn't to protect or lengthen Eli's or anyone else's careers.
It is part of improving a team that has been deficient for several years at specific positions.
But fats, the Giants should be tearing this thing down. Never mind that tearing this down is impossible and stupid... You know that. Why are we signing good players? We were 3-13 last year!!!!!!
Its possible that the Giants feel eli is nearing the end or at the end BUT they dont love the qbs in this draft. Then what? You cant force the issue and take a qb just because.
You have to allow for variances or grey area in this thing.
I agree. If they truly believe none of these top 4 QBs in the draft will be franchise QBs then I will have to accept them passing on one. But if they pass on a QB they think will be a franchise QB just for the sake of trying to go all in on Eli the next year or two, then yes, I have a huge problem with it.
Also agree with Ryan. Winning the next couple of years and having a future franchise QB in the pipeline is the best case scenario.
many of the reasons why we were 3-13 are already out the door - Reese, McAdoo, bad starting OLineman, Beckham not being injured, and a brand new scheme on both sides of the ball.
I agree. If they truly believe none of these top 4 QBs in the draft will be franchise QBs then I will have to accept them passing on one. But if they pass on a QB they think will be a franchise QB just for the sake of trying to go all in on Eli the next year or two, then yes, I have a huge problem with it.
Also agree with Ryan. Winning the next couple of years and having a future franchise QB in the pipeline is the best case scenario.
I think you have summed up how most of the supporters of Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen feel. I have a hard time believing that the Giants will put all their faith in Eli after allowing the benching etc. I hope I am right because if they pass on a QB solely to try to win once more with Eli then most of the fan base will be livid. Could you imagine the fan reaction and PR nightmare if they pass on a QB like Rosen and he ends up going to the Jets and turns into a franchise QB while Eli continues to regress and they become a struggling 6-10 to 7-9 team?
I don't get it. I keep hearing people clamor for a "complete overhaul", yet a fair portion of the roster will turn over, we have a new coach, GM and assistants, and we have guys we know we'll be replacing next year to free up cap space and all I keep hear after every signing is that these new players are getting in the way of the "2-3 year rebuild".
I honestly don't know what the fuck most of BBI is talking about anymore.
Maybe people want us to draft a QB, then simply keep tanking for a few years. Then keep drafting blue chippers to put us in position to win big in about four years.
You know, something like the Sixers did in the NBA...........
I agree. If they truly believe none of these top 4 QBs in the draft will be franchise QBs then I will have to accept them passing on one. But if they pass on a QB they think will be a franchise QB just for the sake of trying to go all in on Eli the next year or two, then yes, I have a huge problem with it.
Also agree with Ryan. Winning the next couple of years and having a future franchise QB in the pipeline is the best case scenario.
I think you have summed up how most of the supporters of Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen feel. I have a hard time believing that the Giants will put all their faith in Eli after allowing the benching etc. I hope I am right because if they pass on a QB solely to try to win once more with Eli then most of the fan base will be livid. Could you imagine the fan reaction and PR nightmare if they pass on a QB like Rosen and he ends up going to the Jets and turns into a franchise QB while Eli continues to regress and they become a struggling 6-10 to 7-9 team?
If Josh Rosen turns out to be a bust, Saquon Barkley (or whomever else we could have had at #2) leads a team to a Super Bowl, and Eli doesn't bottom out then the fan base will be livid. The presence of Manning and/or Webb on the roster should not rule out drafting a QB 2nd overall, but if the scouting staff is not confident that any option at #2 is a real upgrade over Manning and/or Webb you don't take one for the sake of taking one
The presence of Manning and/or Webb on the roster should not rule out drafting a QB 2nd overall, but if the scouting staff is not confident that any option at #2 is a real upgrade over Manning and/or Webb you don't take one for the sake of taking one
The presence of Manning and/or Webb on the roster should not rule out drafting a QB 2nd overall, but if the scouting staff is not confident that any option at #2 is a real upgrade over Manning and/or Webb you don't take one for the sake of taking one
This is exactly what I was saying.
Maybe I misconstrued your post, but I thought you were advocating taking a QB at all cost just because one may be the real deal and we don't want him going to the Jets
Its possible that the Giants feel eli is nearing the end or at the end BUT they dont love the qbs in this draft. Then what? You cant force the issue and take a qb just because.
You have to allow for variances or grey area in this thing.
I agree. If they truly believe none of these top 4 QBs in the draft will be franchise QBs then I will have to accept them passing on one. But if they pass on a QB they think will be a franchise QB just for the sake of trying to go all in on Eli the next year or two, then yes, I have a huge problem with it.
Also agree with Ryan. Winning the next couple of years and having a future franchise QB in the pipeline is the best case scenario.
By your own words on this thread you should be happy with this signing. You thought Solder was 32 and would have 2 years. He just turned 30. Logically then you should think he has 4 years left of good play. Which is the length of his contract.
I am ... I am happier. I never thought he was done. I just am not sure how much longer he will play. I might be wrong but, the pounding guys take in the NFL season after season - the body has to break down at a faster than normal rate? I am not a Dr. but, it seems like 30 is that "magical" threshold where players start(?) the drop-off?
I am glad he is 2 years younger than I originally thought. Who knows - maybe we just signed this generation's Jackie Slater? Fingers crossed.
Maybe I misconstrued your post, but I thought you were advocating taking a QB at all cost just because one may be the real deal and we don't want him going to the Jets
Sorry I should have been clear. None of the pro-QB supporters just want the Giants to take a QB just for the sake of taking one. If they conclude that none of these QB's are potential franchise QB's then I fully support a trade down or Barkley. I am a big fan of Rosen, Darnold, and Mayfield and I one of them to be the pick because I believe in them not because they play QB.
RE: There is a real undercurrent on this site that if you try to win games
over the next two years, that you are doing a disservice to the franchise, the NFL, and maybe to the entire planet.
Solder helps us win now and will help the "transition" to the future. His signing simply means that we don't actually *need* to the "Trust the Process" or "let's get Mark Cuban fined" route that some people seem to want to embark upon.
And, since it always seem to come back to Eli, it's odd that the criticism is that he is no longer able to elevate shitty players around him. The solution, logically, would therefore be to not put shitty players around him, but instead put good players around him and remove the elevation burden.
But then, when you attempt to surround him with a stellar #1 WR, a quality #3 WR (Shep is a 3 not a 2), a potentially quality TE, and a quality OL, the plan is met with derision that includes extreme resistance to additionally adding a potentially superlative rushing attack.
Admittingly ... I do worry to much so, take it with a grain of salt - disservice to "The entire planet" has crossed my mind. But, what can you do? We have to win now .... and GM Gettleman seems to be signing guys like he believes that also.
Let future generations (Giant fans) figure out how to save the planet. They can do it - they will be a good bunch.
I'd be careful about assuming a player in his 30s has 4 good years left. You want to bank on that? Check the ages of McKenzie, O'Hara, Diehl, and Seubert when they were done.
anyone have the contract details (i.e. the hit against the salary cap
for this year)?
I was going to post this long diatribe here since my friend Eric seems to have that black cloud hovering over his head. The reality about whats going on with this team is that we are ALL guessing. Every poster, every beat writer, etc.
Eric could be right, this could be more "business as usual" for Mara, load up behind Eli don't worry about the future. It could be the opposite, DG is going peace by peace and trying to clean up the mess. The could pick Barkley, they could pick a QB, they could trade down. And you can view ALL these moves for now or for the future. It depends on the lens you use.
There's an old saying: "The past is a good indicator for the future". I look at Gettleman's past and see what contributions he made here. What he did in Carolina. What he has said here since taking over: "run the ball, stop the run, get after the QB".
What it seems like he is doing, is, after assessing his roster, his locker room, he is trying to 1. change the culture by clearing out what he can, and 2. fix the LB and OL units, both of which were unacceptable BEFORE injuries last year.
I heard bitching about Herzlich getting guaranteed money. He was resigned for the locker room, he's a high character guy, who can help on ST.
He signed Stewart who 's can help at RB but he will contribute just as much in the locker room and meeting room.
It seems like he will try to clear out under performers, over paid and too old players if he can. There are three notable exceptions: the 2 Eli's and JPP.
As Eric and others have pointed out, their contracts make trading them or cutting them virtually impossible.
Next year will be a different story. So in the short run, DG has said "clean slate" which may help Apple, and said they are moving forward with Manning (if for no other reason they have no choice.) From an HR perspective, considering the contracts, this was the right way to handle both. JPP is Bettcher's problem.
In conclusion, I don't think we will really know what's going on maybe not until next off season.
I'd be careful about assuming a player in his 30s has 4 good years left. You want to bank on that? Check the ages of McKenzie, O'Hara, Diehl, and Seubert when they were done.
I don't think it's so much the age, it's the # of seasons played, wear and tear.
Solder has only played 7, mostly injury free seasons aside from the torn biceps in 2015. He should be fine.
plain and simple. Gettleman let's Pugh out the door, whiffs on Norwell, and is left with making Nate Solder the highest paid tackle in the league to get him to come on board.
Of course we're all in favor of the Giants improving the line, with the understanding that it costs money - but this was not a savvy move. Solder may not even be a top 10 tackle in the NFL, yet they're giving him $34 mil guaranteed. Huge gamble that can really set the franchise back if it doesn't work out.
Its possible that the Giants feel eli is nearing the end or at the end BUT they dont love the qbs in this draft. Then what? You cant force the issue and take a qb just because.
You have to allow for variances or grey area in this thing.
I think you're exactly right. You can't force it and take a QB just because.
I could see them really loving one of the QBs much more than any other and what if Cleveland feels the same way and takes that guy with the 1st pick? No way do I want them settling on another QB just because.
I'd want them to move onto the next highest guy they love. It could be Barkley or even Nelson. Doesn't matter to me as long as they're convinced he's their guy and will be a can't miss type player.
plain and simple. Gettleman let's Pugh out the door, whiffs on Norwell, and is left with making Nate Solder the highest paid tackle in the league to get him to come on board.
Of course we're all in favor of the Giants improving the line, with the understanding that it costs money - but this was not a savvy move. Solder may not even be a top 10 tackle in the NFL, yet they're giving him $34 mil guaranteed. Huge gamble that can really set the franchise back if it doesn't work out.
A.G.R.E.E.D.
Color. me. shocked. And why add a period between every letter?
How is this a huge gamble?? Fucks sake dude you have bitched about the ol for years... I give up.
If solder was a top 3 LT do you really think hed be available on the open market ???? Riddle me that...
If he was a top 3 LT hed cost double.
One. More. Time... you have to overpay in fa. Want to improve the team ? Wanna eliminate the urge or need to start an ol sucks thread every other day on BBI? You overpay a solid LT in FA. Its how this shit works. Want to avoid fa like the plague? You cant. Period. Its the nature of the beast.
plain and simple. Gettleman let's Pugh out the door, whiffs on Norwell, and is left with making Nate Solder the highest paid tackle in the league to get him to come on board.
Of course we're all in favor of the Giants improving the line, with the understanding that it costs money - but this was not a savvy move. Solder may not even be a top 10 tackle in the NFL, yet they're giving him $34 mil guaranteed. Huge gamble that can really set the franchise back if it doesn't work out.
A.G.R.E.E.D.
This is not a "huge gamble"
How about offering up an alternative? How would YOU go about fixing this line if you're against signing the best LT on the market?
Draft picks are finite. We have several holes and can't spend all of them on the offensive line.
We can get out of this deal in 2 years without terrible cap implications (8M dead cap and would save us 9M), so the idea that this can "set the franchise back" is a pretty ridiculous exaggeration.
think people are stuck in the 90's when it comes to setting franchises back and their take on the cap. Been saying it for awhile now.
An Albert Haynesworth deal can set a franchise back, because they get one year out of a guy and eat a ton of money at a time when the cap was really tight.
Drafting a bust at QB can set a franchise back because it wastes time on the bust and then causes a cycle where you are relying on middling vets to get by.
Having a successful coach leave can set a franchise back, especially if the decision to replace him is poor and you stick with the new guy awhile. See Jeff Fisher
Having volatile ownership can set a franchise back. Hello Raiders and Redskins.
A lot of things impact teams for several years. Very few of them have to do with paying market value for a player, especially in today's cap era.
think people are stuck in the 90's when it comes to setting franchises back and their take on the cap. Been saying it for awhile now.
An Albert Haynesworth deal can set a franchise back, because they get one year out of a guy and eat a ton of money at a time when the cap was really tight.
Drafting a bust at QB can set a franchise back because it wastes time on the bust and then causes a cycle where you are relying on middling vets to get by.
Having a successful coach leave can set a franchise back, especially if the decision to replace him is poor and you stick with the new guy awhile. See Jeff Fisher
Having volatile ownership can set a franchise back. Hello Raiders and Redskins.
A lot of things impact teams for several years. Very few of them have to do with paying market value for a player, especially in today's cap era.
that's some substantial hyperbole, but to act like it won't impact the team's ability to possibly maneuver the way they want is also hyperbole.
Look at it this way, if the Giants had more cap space they'd probably have signed Norwell, still have DRC, and possibly Mathieu by now.
but they don't.
So under the circumstances Gettleman has proceeded admirably, but it's not bitching, being negative or complaining to acknowledge the impact of a contract like Solder's.
It's only a major setback if Solder can't make it through the first 2 seasons of the deal. We can get out of this relatively easily in 2020 if we have to.
If current trends continue, the cap is going to be close to 200M in 2020. The 8M in dead money that would result in cutting ties w/ Solder at that point in time isn't going to set the Giants back at all.
Look at it this way, if the Giants had more cap space they'd probably have signed Norwell, still have DRC, and possibly Mathieu by now
The reports that have come out said we offered the same as Jax for Norwell. We signed Solder. We signed a LB. We traded for Ogletree. We signed a RB. We signed a guard.
We basically haven't been constricted by the cap. We were constricted in Norwell choosing another team.
And FMiC is right - Norwell not coming here wasn't for a lack of cap space. We made a comparable/competitive offer and he chose the better team in the state without income tax.
offer was "similar", but I doubt we ever know exactly what it was and this quote by Stapleton tells me the Giants had a limit to how high they'd go "went as high as they could". I'd guess JAX was higher or identical, so if the Giants had more space they could have increased their offer. Not sure why that's unreasonable or unrealistic to believe.
Quote:
Solder news first- Gmen had sights on Norwell and went as high as they could and it didn't workout. They had valued Norwell more than the price for LT Solder but once they lost out the went hard after Solder. Overpaid but a need and a good pick with some good years left.
I mean, at a certain point we probably had a limit of what we were going to offer regardless of cap space.
It's not like we would have offered him 20M per year if we had the space to do it.
hitdog basically said that Norwell simply preferred JAX and that the offers were close enough where it was a matter of him choosing. Maybe if we had outbid them by a lot, he would have come here instead - but I don't think we wanted to pay a guard much more than 15M per.
it happens, but it's rare. Maybe it happened here or maybe the offers were identical.
if offers were exactly the same then it is what it is, no animosity, the Jags are a playoff team, with some good skill players, and a good defense.
but I'd think if you're going to overpay someone, I'd overpay the 26 years old top rated at his position player vs the 30 year old middle of the pack player. Both are improvements, and I'm not complaining about signing Solder though some feeble minded people will call it that. Just giving my view.
and don't get hung up on "overpay" some people say it's the market rate, and if that is the term that makes you happy then use that, but then realize the word overpay ceases to exist in your vocabulary because everything then becomes market rate since that's what it costs you to get something.
one backup QB wins the SB, after of course Wentz who was on his way to league MVP got them there, and everyone acts as if that is the norm. We don't need to draft a QB Foles won the SB so that means Webb is a lock to win one as he was a 3rd round pick too!!
32 QBs have won 52 Super Bowls.
26 Super Bowls were won by QBs drafted early in round one.
4 were won by QBs drafted late in round one
22 were won by QBs drafted after the first round, or who were undrafted.
Now do it again with the QBs, not the number of SBs. Because it's a bit of a statistical issue when you put the number of QBs who have won a SB in your header, and then use the number of SBs as your proof. It's what someone would do if they were trying to use selective data to prove a point that the raw data doesn't really support.
After you're done with that, then add in the context of how many QBs were drafted in each of those blocks of the draft during that time frame. There are so many more QBs drafted outside the top 10 of the draft than within the top 10 (by an order of magnitude), that you're not even close to comparing similar sample sizes, and therefore, not remotely proving the likelihood of finding a SB-winning QB outside the top 10 of the draft.
I remember compiling this last time you kept repeating the same tired post on multiple threads, but I remember it being something like 10% of all QBs drafted in the top 10 of the draft went on to win a SB, whereas less than half of 1% of all QBs who were drafted outside the top 10 went on to win one, and that was even giving you Roethlisberger, who was drafted 11th.
You love trotting this out like you've discovered some sort of proof for optimal QB acquisition, when the truth is, you're either really bad at statistics, or just good enough to manipulate them, which makes you full of crap.
Engineering humor there.......
Plenty of red flags here, but the Giants are certainly a better team now than they were yesterday.
Plenty of red flags here, but the Giants are certainly a better team now than they were yesterday.
All true - future LT is still a need, but at least its not a desperate need right now anymore
A pylon would be an improvement. At least it wouldn't hold or false start ever.
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Nate Solder has agreed in principle to a 4-year contract with the New York Giants.
Link - ( New Window )
He played a hell of a game in the Super Bowl vs the Eagles pass rush.
All the Patriots OL benefit from Brady, the offense, and Scarnecchia so I would stay away from them all things being equal, but hard to argue he's the best option out there.
Flowers to RT?
Now time for DG to find the next Norwells at the guard spots.
Moving Flowers to RT or moving Flowers..
Let's hope that Flowers can adjust to the right side AND improve.
We got your man, Gidie!
All the Patriots OL benefit from Brady, the offense, and Scarnecchia so I would stay away from them all things being equal, but hard to argue he's the best option out there.
Flowers to RT?
We don't need a savior, just competence. We have had a completely incompetent line for 5 plus years.
Average or slightly above, and this is a different team.
All the Patriots OL benefit from Brady, the offense, and Scarnecchia so I would stay away from them all things being equal, but hard to argue he's the best option out there.
Flowers to RT?
Of course not but he is a huge upgrade at LT that also upgrades RT with Flowers moving over there. With the amount of money that Hubbard, Fulton, etc. got nobody should complain about Solder's contract.
Now time for DG to find the next Norwells at the guard spots.
Flowers needs to be at guard or on the bench. His problems at left tackle will be problems at right tackle as well.
Guard would be my bet, but we'll see
Mike Garafolo
Verified account @MikeGarafolo
2m2 minutes ago
Nate Solder is going to be the new highest-paid left tackle in the league with this deal from the Giants. Waiting on exact numbers.
There really is no plan B for left tackle (unless you are OK with Flowers/Wheeler).
Solder
2nd Rd Pick
Jones
Fluker
Flowers
No one would confuse this with the 1995 Cowboys but it would be a step in the right direction.
LT-Solder
LG-empty
C-Jones
RG-Jerry (at the moment)
RT-Flowers
So we still need two guards. Guards can be had so not a huge freak out moment and we have VETs to help if need for a season.
I'm also very excited to see Flowers on the right side. I think he is going to really make a comeback over there.
Good get regardless. Will definitely make the OL better. Sitton on the cheap would be a great signing.
Solder..Sitton..Jones..???...Flowers would be a great start to a turnaround on the OL.
Anyone have good scouting on him? How good is he really? I've heard mixed comments.
I'm also very excited to see Flowers on the right side. I think he is going to really make a comeback over there.
I still think Flowers would be better suited inside at LG...but we will see.
Solder-Hernandez-Jones-Pugh-Flowers, or Solder-Hernandez-Jones-Flowers-Pugh.
Either way its much, much better
Pugh lol no thanks
Quote:
that has always been Flowers more natural position. I expect he'll have to compete for it with a rookie or lower cost veteran, but he'll likely win that battle and go on to be a very good RT.
Now time for DG to find the next Norwells at the guard spots.
Flowers needs to be at guard or on the bench. His problems at left tackle will be problems at right tackle as well.
Disagree - his biggest problem is technique, which has improved year to year and would face a much bigger learning curve kicking inside to guard.
My guess is this is Flowers last year considering his resume here and the situation at the end of 17 season.
Flowers ideal weight is in the 310-325 range. He isn't getting up to 340.
Per Schefter
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Giants are expected to give former Patriots LT Nate Solder a four-year, $60 million deal, per source.
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Giants are expected to give former Patriots LT Nate Solder a four-year, $60 million deal, per source.
I'm glad they have him if the reports are true and that they're actually doing something to try and fix the line. I just hope the guy stays healthy and that it's structured in a way that they can bail in a couple of years if he's not working out.
So far in this offseason, we've added a good LT and a good LB. Took a ton of money to do it, but at least those 2 major weaknesses now become positions of stability.
It's going to be a lot. Top LT of the FA class piggy-backing off Whitworth's play and salary. All the $ seem inflated again this year.
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I think wheeler showed better feet last year than flowers ever has. A year in the weight room and he can go from 310 to 340 with his height and not lose an once of quickness. Don't know if flowers can actually play OG but I just think wheeler has more potential. Sadly since flowers was a 10 pick. But that's a sunk cost and we need to do what's best moving forward
Flowers ideal weight is in the 310-325 range. He isn't getting up to 340.
Sorry not Flowers Wheeler.
Yeah we paid good money here, but I think it was necessary.
The idea of drafting Nelson is pretty appealing to me. This line could transform quite a bit in one year if we were to get him.
agreed but this is one of those scenarios where the need justifies the money, despite overpaying.
Yeah we paid good money here, but I think it was necessary.
The idea of drafting Nelson is pretty appealing to me. This line could transform quite a bit in one year if we were to get him.
Only if they traded down. I don't see the benefit of using such a high pick on a guard when they could get a very good guard in round 2.
Solder struggled at the beginning of last year, is going to be 30. He pulled it together and was very good in the stretch run.
It will be nice to see the difference at LT. But I hope he is able to stay healthy, otherwise this contract could end up looking REALLY ugly.
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Solder isn't great but he's a legitimate LT. This also has a domino effect in that we can now move Flowers and figure out if he's better suited on the right side or even in the interior.
Yeah we paid good money here, but I think it was necessary.
The idea of drafting Nelson is pretty appealing to me. This line could transform quite a bit in one year if we were to get him.
Only if they traded down. I don't see the benefit of using such a high pick on a guard when they could get a very good guard in round 2.
I wouldn't take Nelson @ 2 - I've said that the only 2 guys I'd take there are Barkley or Rosen.
If not, I'd move down a few spots for Nelson or Fitzpatrick if the trade opp is there.
I need to come away with one of those 4 players if I am NYG, though.
The #Giants are signing LT Nate Solder to a 4-year deal worth $62M, source said, with $35M guaranteed. The highest paid OL in the NFL. 💰💰💰
Yeah we paid good money here, but I think it was necessary.
The idea of drafting Nelson is pretty appealing to me. This line could transform quite a bit in one year if we were to get him.
Agreed. Cant just look at Solder and the cap number in a vacuum. Has a multiplier effect on the rest of the line and flexibility in making other moves on the line.
Not a fan of Solders run blocking. But Id like to see Flowers at RT
Solder struggled at the beginning of last year, is going to be 30. He pulled it together and was very good in the stretch run.
It will be nice to see the difference at LT. But I hope he is able to stay healthy, otherwise this contract could end up looking REALLY ugly.
Doubtful most of the guaranteed money is probably over the first 2 years so the Giants can cut him after two years.
You can really say this about any FA that fills a need.
We don't have an incompetent GM or HC anymore. No idea why we are comparing things to that era.
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Solid player but he has had issues in pass protection too. He's overrated in free agency because he's the best tackle in a bad market.
Not a fan of Solders run blocking. But Id like to see Flowers at RT
Hes a solid run blocker.
Vernon yes, JPP no. JPP was a big-time gamble based on all of his injury history. Vernon is a good comp because he was a reliable and solid two way end, but not a top player at his position. Solder is similar.
Ian Rapoport
Verified account @RapSheet
The #Giants are signing LT Nate Solder to a 4-year deal worth $62M, source said, with $35M guaranteed. The highest paid OL in the NFL. 💰💰💰
He has never played at that weight. Adding that much weight to his frame would slow him down. Now if Wheeler were to move inside that would make sense but at LT it is more beneficial to play at a more comfortable weight.
Defensively, they may think they can get back to the 2016 production with a new coach and improved health.
I just get the sense, they think they can get back into the playoff hunt next season.
Ian Rapoport
Verified account @RapSheet
The #Giants are signing LT Nate Solder to a 4-year deal worth $62M, source said, with $35M guaranteed. The highest paid OL in the NFL. 💰💰💰
OOF! That's a big enchalada to swallow every year.
But that's the price you pay for years of bad drafts and FA signings.
After this, what do we have left to spend?
If Wheeler develops as hoped he would be cheaper to re-sign due to his lack of playing time compared to a player that was starting for several years.
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Defensively, they may think they can get back to the 2016 production with a new coach and improved health.
I just get the sense, they think they can get back into the playoff hunt next season.
Because a rookie QB would not need a LT???
After this, what do we have left to spend?
All depends how it is structured, when Vernon signed his first year cap hit was like 3 million..
Yes remember when Snacks was considered overpaid? Seems like a bargain now.
Agreed, but that's the reality of the situation. It's crazy to make Solder the highest paid LT in the league, but we are out of options. We have a 38 year old immobile QB. Solder provides stability at the most important position on the OL.
Flowers was drafted to be a RT. Beatty had just signed his 2nd contract here before getting hurt and forcing them to scramble with Flowers to the left.
Barkley and Nelson are the best 2 players in the draft. Now let's go get one of them.
We will see. I expected Will Beatty to bulk up in the NFL but his weight didn't really increase much. Look at Solder, he is 6'8" and only 320 lbs.
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Solid player but he has had issues in pass protection too. He's overrated in free agency because he's the best tackle in a bad market.
Agreed, but that's the reality of the situation. It's crazy to make Solder the highest paid LT in the league, but we are out of options. We have a 38 year old immobile QB. Solder provides stability at the most important position on the OL.
Excuse me, highest paid OL.
Seriously. How do they get out of this mess? They don't have an o-line either all of a sudden. Only tackle is Waddle. I know they went all in this year but they failed spectacularly to the damn Eagles.
I get the signing, just don't really agree with it.
One draft failure after another until you have to pay through the nose to get decent players like Solder, Snacks, Oliver Vernon and Jackrabbit.
Not a good blueprint for building long term success.
Feels like a desperation move in the hope that Eli can lead them to the promise land with his blind side covered in decent (not great) fashion.
Oh, well... throw the dice on Eli and see what comes up.
Don't cry if it's Snake Eyes.
Left side looks very good
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Could NE make Soldier a last min offer that he couldnt refuse to keep him like they did with McDaniels? #NFLFreeAgency2018
Frank Gore never signed with the Eagles in 2015. Just a friendly reminder for those who think everything has already been decided and 4pm will be anticlimactic.
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Stop for anyone overeacting to the $, it means zip. We have 90+m cap room the next 2 years. We'll extend OBJ and Collins and still have 50+m to play with BEFORE we release a qb after 2018 who makes 20m.
This signing is a massive win and beyond needed. He is 10x that of Eric Flowers.
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
You want the team to get better but you expect it to happen by pinching pennies.
Couldn't agree more. Nelson, Barkley, Minka or Chubb for me at 2. I do love Rosen's arm and Baker's accuracy, but I dont think either are worth a top 5 pick. The other 4 are
I love this signing. It had to be done.
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
Darnold or Barkley are the obvious choices here.
You want the team to get better but you expect it to happen by pinching pennies.
If they take Rosen with this, I have no issue. If they take Barkley, this, I fear, will be an off season that we will rue for a long time
Stop for anyone overeacting to the $, it means zip. We have 90+m cap room the next 2 years. We'll extend OBJ and Collins and still have 50+m to play with BEFORE we release a qb after 2018 who makes 20m.
This signing is a massive win and beyond needed. He is 10x that of Eric Flowers.
It is not a "massive win" and may end up being a massive lose. It's a sign of a desperate team that has to over-pay for players never secured in the Draft. We now have a history of doing that and it's no recipe for long term success.
It's a team sport. Maybe there are a few positions where rankings might hold more water than others.
How can you accurately "rank" a tackle in football? The only thing he totally owns personally is number of penalties committed.
What about blocking scheme? What about how often a tackle is helped out with backs and receivers? What about playing next to a shitty guard or on a bad OL in general? What about blocking for a QB who holds on to the ball too long? How do rankings account for such things outside of a player's control?
Nate Solder is a quality football player who started at LT for the best team in the NFL during his time there and just played in the Super Bowl. I'm pretty sure he will be a huge upgrade for our OL group which has been a running joke in the NFL going on 5 years now.
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It means nothing...
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
I am not saying it is a 1 year deal but what was Vernon first year cap hit
How do you think eagles keep signing people when they are right against the cap?
Stop worrying about the cap, teams know how to work the cap and giants have 1 of the best in the business
Darnold or Barkley are the obvious choices here.
Reese couldn't. Couldn't draft them high either. Let's hope Gettleman can and does.
+1.
Lots of $$$ for a 30/31 y.o. LT who has dings and a child with a major health issue.
$15M already seems overpay, but if he helps keep a DE off Eli/ our QB so our big 3-5 complete routes and pops holes for our RBs, maybe even turn Perkins into an NFLer, he's a bargain.
So. Its EF at RT,RG, or the bench ( doubt adios).Hope they turn him into an allPro RG.
I'm glad they have him if the reports are true and that they're actually doing something to try and fix the line. I just hope the guy stays healthy and that it's structured in a way that they can bail in a couple of years if he's not working out.
The other option is you don't pay that contract, move on from Eli, and rebuild the team.
This whole thing feels like a half-ass approach again.
We're starting to feel like the Knicks.
Then Flowers becomes the swing tackle, not Wheeler.
I think this is a real possibility. Maybe not probable, but possible.
Except in SB 42:)
I like the additions thus far, all of them. They are all adults! Some of have said the team needed to get younger. I don't think so. The Giants were already pretty young across the roster. They need leaders and good teammates.
The other option is you don't pay that contract, move on from Eli, and rebuild the team.
This whole thing feels like a half-ass approach again.
We're starting to feel like the Knicks.
Yep... my sentiments exactly!
It also really depends on how the giants view Webb, if they view him as a guy who can take over they can go with Nelson, if not you almost have to go with a qb...
I hope they trade down and get beast available player and try to get a haul of picks from a team desperate..
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In comment 13864499 nygiants16 said:
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It means nothing...
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
I am not saying it is a 1 year deal but what was Vernon first year cap hit
How do you think eagles keep signing people when they are right against the cap?
Stop worrying about the cap, teams know how to work the cap and giants have 1 of the best in the business
EXACTLY! Who the hell cares how much money the team spends?? Its not as if the Giants have a history of being cap strapped and unable to manuver like they need to, financially speaking. That should tell you they know what they're doing when it comes to money. Don't worry about it. If Solder has a good season none of you will care about the money. Because we're all fickle as f.
Giants sign one of the better LTs
We paid too much
I've been saying this for awhile now, but there are no more lengthy rebuilds in the NFL anymore. With the cap - you only have windows to work in - and in those windows, you try to shore up areas of weakness, add depth when possible and hope injuries don't wipe out all of that work.
Each team basically does a derivative of that - which is why failing at a position or positions hurts so much.
As far as this franchise is concerned, we did a house cleaning. New GM. New coach. New coordinators. And the changes are still coming. That's about as much of an overhaul as one can reasonably expect.
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It means nothing...
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
No they aren't.
A good portion will be a SB, but they probably had to guarantee salary for years 1 and 2.
Assume a $25M SB and $10M in guaranteed salary in years 1 and 2. Over 4 years, that is a prorated SB of just over $6M per. After year two, there is only about $12M left. The Giants could probably cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. If he lasts 3 years, they would likely have little in the way of a cap hit when cut.
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In comment 13864499 nygiants16 said:
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It means nothing...
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
I am not saying it is a 1 year deal but what was Vernon first year cap hit
How do you think eagles keep signing people when they are right against the cap?
Stop worrying about the cap, teams know how to work the cap and giants have 1 of the best in the business
I understand the cap plenty, it's fluid but there are restrictions. I don't think we're close enough to be making roster decisions just for the next year or two. It's precisely why I don't like this deal, we will start to regret it when we should theoretically be in position to actually compete and be able to use that money. Giving into our lack of leverage and committing to a very dangerous contract is clear indicator on where our priorities lie. It's one that I don't agree with it.
I'm not going to continue to piss on everybody's cornflakes so I'll leave it at that. I don't bitch about every deal, but this one is a little unsettling to me.
with this post, we are stuck with your idiocy for another day. bad move.
Fucking troll.
sundayatone : 11:33 am : link : reply
stuck with manning for another year maybe two. bad move.
Are we going to be entertained with more "cult of eli" responses now???
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stuck with manning for another year maybe two. bad move.
with this post, we are stuck with your idiocy for another day. bad move.
funny,well played.
Not true at all. If the Giants are going to invest in a QB with the 2nd pick they will obviously want to protect the kid. I don't think this has anything to do with Eli's future. Norwell was clearly Plan A with Solder being the fallback option.
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We're not out of options. I hope this works out, but that's a ridiculous contract for a guy who is a "solid" left tackle.
The other option is you don't pay that contract, move on from Eli, and rebuild the team.
This whole thing feels like a half-ass approach again.
We're starting to feel like the Knicks.
Yep... my sentiments exactly!
All this
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Butler, Amendola, Lewis, and now Solder...
Seriously. How do they get out of this mess? They don't have an o-line either all of a sudden. Only tackle is Waddle. I know they went all in this year but they failed spectacularly to the damn Eagles.
I'd like to hear how the Pats move on...
Time to get a new angle.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
DRAFT a franchise QB.
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Now trade back to 6th get Nelson and then grab Hernandez in the 2nd and this line is fixed
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
DRAFT a franchise QB.
Get Barkley and then Hernandez without trading back
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In comment 13864499 nygiants16 said:
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It means nothing...
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
No they aren't.
A good portion will be a SB, but they probably had to guarantee salary for years 1 and 2.
Assume a $25M SB and $10M in guaranteed salary in years 1 and 2. Over 4 years, that is a prorated SB of just over $6M per. After year two, there is only about $12M left. The Giants could probably cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. If he lasts 3 years, they would likely have little in the way of a cap hit when cut.
Thank Rich. I really appreciate your posts on cap hits and contracts. Good stuff.
Engineering humor there.......
Yeah, he's definitely quite the iron man.
Fucking troll.
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with this move we are
sundayatone : 11:33 am : link : reply
stuck with manning for another year maybe two. bad move.
Are we going to be entertained with more "cult of eli" responses now???
elis play will hold the off back,hope i am wrong but i doubt it chubby.
I've been saying this for awhile now, but there are no more lengthy rebuilds in the NFL anymore. With the cap - you only have windows to work in - and in those windows, you try to shore up areas of weakness, add depth when possible and hope injuries don't wipe out all of that work.
Each team basically does a derivative of that - which is why failing at a position or positions hurts so much.
As far as this franchise is concerned, we did a house cleaning. New GM. New coach. New coordinators. And the changes are still coming. That's about as much of an overhaul as one can reasonably expect.
I'm assuming you're excluding the Browns (and a few other teams as well) from your belief that "there are no more lengthy rebuilds in the NFL anymore."
"No free agent wants to come to the Giants"
"Our line is doomed"
"Team will be lucky to win six games next year"
"Our new GM is worthless"
Sign Solder:
"He's overpaid"
"He wasn't that good"
"Our new GM was taken to the cleaners by Solder's agent"
"This is just like when Reese signed Vernon"
"Our new GM is worthless"
If little Bill thought Solder was good enough to protect Brady's blind side that's good enough for me. And the Giants were always going to have to pay top dollar for his services b/c of Reese's horrible OL drafting.
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In comment 13864499 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
It means nothing...
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
No they aren't.
A good portion will be a SB, but they probably had to guarantee salary for years 1 and 2.
Assume a $25M SB and $10M in guaranteed salary in years 1 and 2. Over 4 years, that is a prorated SB of just over $6M per. After year two, there is only about $12M left. The Giants could probably cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. If he lasts 3 years, they would likely have little in the way of a cap hit when cut.
That's 12.5 million in dead money year 3 the way you have that outlined. 6+ million in dead money isn't something sneeze at either on the final year. Unless it's a really wonky structure, they're committing to him. You can still like the signing but that much is undeniable.
Think back last year, Whitworth at 36 signed a 3-36M with 15M guaranteed.
Solder is 6 years younger
You want the team to get better but you expect it to happen by pinching pennies.
Could not agree more. If they had not signed him they would have said you give him a million more to fix the line. Do what you have to. You can never win. This is a solid signing. This makes me think that in order to OBJ and Collins signed next year either JPP or Vernon has to go. I am guessing DE will be looked at strongly this draft.
Jerry
Harris
Armstrong
Marshall
Would free up another $11M+
Wouldnt surprise me to see some salary-to-bonus conversion on Jenkins and Snacks, too.
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We're not out of options. I hope this works out, but that's a ridiculous contract for a guy who is a "solid" left tackle.
The other option is you don't pay that contract, move on from Eli, and rebuild the team.
This whole thing feels like a half-ass approach again.
We're starting to feel like the Knicks.
Yep... my sentiments exactly!
I view it the opposite way.
The Giants need a functional OL, regardless of who is QB. With a legit at least league average- likely more- LT and a big powerful RT (Flowers), the OL is well on its way to being MUCH better. Draft at least on interior OL with another OG in FA, and this is a decent, maybe not exciting, OL- which is a VAST improvement over the last several years.
Further, this really is not a long term deal. The Giants appear to believe that Wheeler has long-term potential. As such, you get a guy who can teach him the ropes while the young guy learns. When young guy is ready, old guy leaves (likely in 2 years).
Draft a GREAT RB in Barkley and get the OL discussed above- and the focus can shift to defense. Keep in mind that the Eagles were 7-9 two years in a row before winning the Super Bowl. Don't discount luck, health and a little talent as being major game changers.
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stuck with manning for another year maybe two. bad move.
Not true at all. If the Giants are going to invest in a QB with the 2nd pick they will obviously want to protect the kid. I don't think this has anything to do with Eli's future. Norwell was clearly Plan A with Solder being the fallback option.
good points
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Ian Rapoport
Verified account @RapSheet
The #Giants are signing LT Nate Solder to a 4-year deal worth $62M, source said, with $35M guaranteed. The highest paid OL in the NFL. 💰💰💰
OOF! That's a big enchalada to swallow every year.
But that's the price you pay for years of bad drafts and FA signings.
That's not really fair - if Flowers had turned out to be a very good LT, that's pretty much what they'd have had to pay him, too. That's just what a FA LT costs, whether it's your own FA or someone else's. Unless you're going to draft a new LT every 4-5 years, you end up having to commit some significant dollars to the position at some point.
In addition to his physical traits that were vital to the Pats offensive success, @soldernate provided 6 8 and 320 pounds (and more) worth of character and leadership. A big loss, on and off the field. Best to him and his family.
The other option is you don't pay that contract, move on from Eli, and rebuild the team.
This whole thing feels like a half-ass approach again.
We're starting to feel like the Knicks.
I would have been fine with the total tear down you are advocating. But DG and Shurmur want to keep Eli for another two years while they develop another QB, either Webb or a draft pick. That necessitates finding and overpaying for a LT. As I said, I think the contract is too much, but understand why they did it.
Think back last year, Whitworth at 36 signed a 3-36M with 15M guaranteed.
Solder is 6 years younger
Sad Face :(
So you wouldn't want your rookie high draft pick to have a good left tackle to protect him?
Next day: 'Eh. Nothing special. I wish I could have gotten someone else.'
The other option is you don't pay that contract, move on from Eli, and rebuild the team.
This whole thing feels like a half-ass approach again.
We're starting to feel like the Knicks.
I completely agree
If the @Giants are keeping Eli and/or drafting a QB for the future, they needed a reliable LT. They got that in Solder. Probably had to overpay for his services but when you have that glaring need, thats what it costs.
In addition to his physical traits that were vital to the Pats offensive success, @soldernate provided 6 8 and 320 pounds (and more) worth of character and leadership. A big loss, on and off the field. Best to him and his family.
Character and leadership are two things that were missing in this unit last year. Evidenced by Flowers and Hart choosing not to play at the end of the season.
In a sport where every team is so vulnerable to injury and we see that guys like Brady, Rodgers, Watt or Beckham can go down in a moment's notice. There really is no point in ever taking the approach to not win now.
Furthermore, what does signing Solder have to do with the overall future of this franchise. That decision will be made when the Giants are on the clock at #2. We know they are going with Eli in 2018. Beyond that, everything is still on the table. The offensive coordinator is at Oklahoma's pro day watching Baker Mayfield as we speak. They could also take the consensus best player in the draft (Barkley) at #2 and turn to Davis Webb after Eli.
Bottom line, the Giants are trying to field the best team they can for 2018 (as they should) and they're not mortgaging any part of their future to do so.
No trade up needed, they just signed Carlos Hyde to a 3 year, 15 million dollar deal. They're good at RB.
The other option is you don't pay that contract, move on from Eli, and rebuild the team.
This whole thing feels like a half-ass approach again.
We're starting to feel like the Knicks.
It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
Character and leadership are two things that were missing in this unit last year. Evidenced by Flowers and Hart choosing not to play at the end of the season.
also in Flowers and Hart not participation in Olineman extra-ciricular activities
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In comment 13864440 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
Verified account @RapSheet
The #Giants are signing LT Nate Solder to a 4-year deal worth $62M, source said, with $35M guaranteed. The highest paid OL in the NFL. 💰💰💰
OOF! That's a big enchalada to swallow every year.
But that's the price you pay for years of bad drafts and FA signings.
That's not really fair - if Flowers had turned out to be a very good LT, that's pretty much what they'd have had to pay him, too. That's just what a FA LT costs, whether it's your own FA or someone else's. Unless you're going to draft a new LT every 4-5 years, you end up having to commit some significant dollars to the position at some point.
I think it's very fair. Flowers is the only OL they have on the roster that is even worth trying to develop. And he's on his last chance. Re the OL, whether high picks, mid round picks, low picks, Big $$ or low $$ FA signings, all of them SUCKED under Reese/Ross and now they are paying for it.
If the @Giants are keeping Eli and/or drafting a QB for the future, they needed a reliable LT. They got that in Solder. Probably had to overpay for his services but when you have that glaring need, thats what it costs.
Well said.
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In comment 13864524 AcesUp said:
Quote:
In comment 13864499 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
It means nothing...
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
No they aren't.
A good portion will be a SB, but they probably had to guarantee salary for years 1 and 2.
Assume a $25M SB and $10M in guaranteed salary in years 1 and 2. Over 4 years, that is a prorated SB of just over $6M per. After year two, there is only about $12M left. The Giants could probably cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. If he lasts 3 years, they would likely have little in the way of a cap hit when cut.
That's 12.5 million in dead money year 3 the way you have that outlined. 6+ million in dead money isn't something sneeze at either on the final year. Unless it's a really wonky structure, they're committing to him. You can still like the signing but that much is undeniable.
Since the contract appears has an AAV of over $15.5M, including the signing bonus, that likely means he pulls down over $10M annually. Cut after year two means that it "costs" $2.5M or less in cap space to cut.
You appear to be falling into the classic misunderstanding of the impact of dead money. Dead money is not added to the cap, but is money already ON the cap that can't be cut away.
In other words, if Solder has a $10M annual salary and about $6M annual SB hit, if cut after year 2, the Giants have to accelerate the remaining prorated SB of about $12M, but drop the $10M in salary- meaning a cap "hit" of $2.5M above what the cap impact already was. That is not likely to be substantial with annual cap increases averaging over $5M.
I think DG thinks they can compete this year.
I'm good with either of those scenarios.
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In comment 13864499 nygiants16 said:
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It means nothing...
Remember when lavar Arrington signed 5 year 54million, it was essentially a 1 year deal...
35m guaranteed. I highly doubt that's all roster bonuses. We're committing to all 4 years here.
No they aren't.
A good portion will be a SB, but they probably had to guarantee salary for years 1 and 2.
Assume a $25M SB and $10M in guaranteed salary in years 1 and 2. Over 4 years, that is a prorated SB of just over $6M per. After year two, there is only about $12M left. The Giants could probably cut him after year 2 with little to no cap hit. If he lasts 3 years, they would likely have little in the way of a cap hit when cut.
There still is a cap hit - the dead money takes away cap space no matter what. With the salary coming off the books, the team frees up space vs. keeping the player, but then they still have to replace that player.
It's not a major problem, especially because the cap continues to go up each year, so teams are more equipped to absorb dead money, but it's not totally correct to say there would be little to no cap hit.
Even if Solder isn't an "elite" LT, he's very good. It has been a pretty long time since we've had a dependable player in that spot.
We needed OL help desperately.
I don't know what some of you guys are looking for.
Wentz wasn't a rookie in 2017 and Foles won the SB. Just to nitpick.
Adding a bunch of current and future 2nd/1st round picks is something that would go a long way in helping the 2019-2020 salary cap catch its breath and work off some of the hefty spending at the top of the roster that hasnt paid off.
I was fine with tearing it down now and taking the QB. Theyve clearly chosen not to go that way. Taking the top-of-the-draft QB now feels like it leaves them with one foot in the win and the other in the rebuild, with an extremely top-heavy set of contracts on the cap for the next 3 years.
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In comment 13864449 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 13864440 Eric from BBI said:
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Ian Rapoport
Verified account @RapSheet
The #Giants are signing LT Nate Solder to a 4-year deal worth $62M, source said, with $35M guaranteed. The highest paid OL in the NFL. 💰💰💰
OOF! That's a big enchalada to swallow every year.
But that's the price you pay for years of bad drafts and FA signings.
That's not really fair - if Flowers had turned out to be a very good LT, that's pretty much what they'd have had to pay him, too. That's just what a FA LT costs, whether it's your own FA or someone else's. Unless you're going to draft a new LT every 4-5 years, you end up having to commit some significant dollars to the position at some point.
I think it's very fair. Flowers is the only OL they have on the roster that is even worth trying to develop. And he's on his last chance. Re the OL, whether high picks, mid round picks, low picks, Big $$ or low $$ FA signings, all of them SUCKED under Reese/Ross and now they are paying for it.
You're missing the point. If Flowers had been good, they'd have given a comparable contract to him instead of Solder. That's just what LTs cost. Blaming the failed picks is silly - this is the price tag for a good LT when they reach FA, whether you draft them or another team does.
It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
An exciting young team that just went to the AFC Championship game while also playing in a state with no income tax?
Adding a bunch of current and future 2nd/1st round picks is something that would go a long way in helping the 2019-2020 salary cap catch its breath and work off some of the hefty spending at the top of the roster that hasnt paid off.
I was fine with tearing it down now and taking the QB. Theyve clearly chosen not to go that way. Taking the top-of-the-draft QB now feels like it leaves them with one foot in the win and the other in the rebuild, with an extremely top-heavy set of contracts on the cap for the next 3 years.
Eli's contract coming off the books really soon will help alleviate a good percentage of the heftiness of our cap situation.
One draft failure after another until you have to pay through the nose to get decent players like Solder, Snacks, Oliver Vernon and Jackrabbit.
Not a good blueprint for building long term success.
Feels like a desperation move in the hope that Eli can lead
them to the promise land with his blind side covered in
decent (not great) fashion.
EF, couldn't cut it @ LT, and its a gamble 1-2 of the top 5 will be available at our spot. Scary move, but desperate times.... It really breaks down to a 2 years and a couple of $$$ to close out the guarantee; the actual structure may be better than what we see, given bonus/incentives structure.
Oh, well... throw the dice on Eli and see what comes up.
Don't cry if it's Snake Eyes.
It is what it is. The sun has still risen in the Meadowlands these past few days without Andrew Norwell.
So a guy made a decision based most likely on a younger nucleus and went to a team that just played in the AFC title game. Maybe he liked the tax advantages? Big deal.
Even if Solder isn't an "elite" LT, he's very good. It has been a pretty long time since we've had a dependable player in that spot.
We needed OL help desperately.
I don't know what some of you guys are looking for.
People just want to bitch about something.
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I can't believe people are calling this a "terrible signing"
Even if Solder isn't an "elite" LT, he's very good. It has been a pretty long time since we've had a dependable player in that spot.
We needed OL help desperately.
I don't know what some of you guys are looking for.
People just want to bitch about something.
I'd say it's more indicative of the average fan being a moron.
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It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
An exciting young team that just went to the AFC Championship game while also playing in a state with no income tax?
Yeah. Versus a NY Giants team that supposedly isn't that far away? Vs. a Blake Bortles led team? Yes.
It's not about Bortles/Eli.
And there's the whole income tax thing, too.
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I think a move down with the Browns/Jets/Bills would be a responsible thing to do, if the offers are there.
Adding a bunch of current and future 2nd/1st round picks is something that would go a long way in helping the 2019-2020 salary cap catch its breath and work off some of the hefty spending at the top of the roster that hasnt paid off.
I was fine with tearing it down now and taking the QB. Theyve clearly chosen not to go that way. Taking the top-of-the-draft QB now feels like it leaves them with one foot in the win and the other in the rebuild, with an extremely top-heavy set of contracts on the cap for the next 3 years.
Eli's contract coming off the books really soon will help alleviate a good percentage of the heftiness of our cap situation.
Before FA it was reported that the Giants would have close to 70 million in cap room next year which includes the contracts of Eli, JPP, and Vernon. If the Giants cut Eli and JPP then that number goes over 90 million. Now obviously you have to add in this years free agent signings plus draft picks but with that the Giants should be able to extend Collins and Beckham and still have over 40 million in cap room.
Ive put that money in a mental side-pocket: most of it goes straight to OBJ, so I basically view it as money already spent just to maintain.
The alternative is to view it as available money, but starting with a talent pool that is terrible as opposed to just below average.
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In comment 13864645 Dave in Hoboken said:
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It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
An exciting young team that just went to the AFC Championship game while also playing in a state with no income tax?
Yeah. Versus a NY Giants team that supposedly isn't that far away? Vs. a Blake Bortles led team? Yes.
Who gives a shit who the QB is when they're winning more games?
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In comment 13864645 Dave in Hoboken said:
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It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
An exciting young team that just went to the AFC Championship game while also playing in a state with no income tax?
Yeah. Versus a NY Giants team that supposedly isn't that far away? Vs. a Blake Bortles led team? Yes.
Bortles was the #3 overall pick. Be careful what you wish for.
I wonder if Gettleman cluster drafts OL high up and tries to fix this area asap.
Yeah. Versus a NY Giants team that supposedly isn't that far away? Vs. a Blake Bortles led team? Yes.
The Giants aren't that far away??? Lol ok
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In comment 13864668 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 13864645 Dave in Hoboken said:
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It does kind of have that vibe. Norwell picking the Jags over us should be a huge eye-opener for this franchise. Picking a team with Bortles as your QB over the Giants with a franchise QB. Yikes.
An exciting young team that just went to the AFC Championship game while also playing in a state with no income tax?
Yeah. Versus a NY Giants team that supposedly isn't that far away? Vs. a Blake Bortles led team? Yes.
Who gives a shit who the QB is when they're winning more games?
Okay, take the Bortles aspect out of the equation.
Now DG can still look for a LT of the future in the next 2-3 drafts, but were not desperate to reach for one.
Flowers gets one year to prove he can be dependable elsewhere (RT or possibly guard?) or hes history
Bortles was the #3 overall pick. Be careful what you wish for.
So was Matt Ryan.
You appear to be falling into the classic misunderstanding of the impact of dead money. Dead money is not added to the cap, but is money already ON the cap that can't be cut away.
In other words, if Solder has a $10M annual salary and about $6M annual SB hit, if cut after year 2, the Giants have to accelerate the remaining prorated SB of about $12M, but drop the $10M in salary- meaning a cap "hit" of $2.5M above what the cap impact already was. That is not likely to be substantial with annual cap increases averaging over $5M.
No, I get it completely. The dead money is a sunk cost. I'm opposed to sinking that cost on a guy like Solder given the state of our franchise. This is why I'm not focused on the AAV and I only reacted when I saw the guaranteed money, which was about 10m more than I anticipated on a 4 year deal.
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Bortles was the #3 overall pick. Be careful what you wish for.
So was Matt Ryan.
That was a long time ago. The spread became prolific in college around 2010-11. Hasn't been so hot at the top of the draft since.
And his backup played as well if not better.
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and was the best player in the league until he got hurt.
And his backup played as well if not better.
As well if not better? You may be the only person in the world with that view of things
two major areas of need were OT and LB and we have addressed both. corner next...
So it's very surprise - beyond being Brady's blind side protection - that Solder would leave...
Moves like this happen because *Cough Jerry Reese Cough* didn't know how to draft OLineman.
2/5 of the OL is complete...still need LG-RG-RT...Please no Flowers at RT! That move is Bobby Hart all over again! If Flowers couldn't block Elite RE's -- what makes you think he can block Elite LE's?
I would take a Tackle in the 3rd round and put him at RT.
IN GETTLEMAN I TRUST!
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and was the best player in the league until he got hurt.
And his backup played as well if not better.
LOL. Okay.
Moves like this happen because *Cough Jerry Reese Cough* didn't know how to draft OLineman.
2/5 of the OL is complete...still need LG-RG-RT...Please no Flowers at RT! That move is Bobby Hart all over again! If Flowers couldn't block Elite RE's -- what makes you think he can block Elite LE's?
I would take a Tackle in the 3rd round and put him at RT.
IN GETTLEMAN I TRUST!
Flowers will get a shot at RT id say 2 of 5 are available
He was terrible against OAK and DAL at the end of the reg season and really should have thrown a game-ending INT against ATL but it miraculously made it's way into Torrey Smith's hands and they wound up winning.
Funny how different the Foles narrative would have been if Keanu Neal had just caught the ball that Foles put right in his bread basket.
Barkley and best available G/C in round 2, allowing Shurmur to work with Webb.
or
Nelson (w/ trade down + picks), also allowing Shurmur to work with Webb and probably 2019 draft capital to make another run at QB if necessary.
or
QB at 2, and address additional areas as needed.
They weren't as bad as 3-13 this past year. McAdoo was in over his head and they had a rotten locker room plus Beckham got hurt. Thankfully they are in position to bounce back and also transition from Eli.
He was terrible against OAK and DAL at the end of the reg season and really should have thrown a game-ending INT against ATL but it miraculously made it's way into Torrey Smith's hands and they wound up winning.
Funny how different the Foles narrative would have been if Keanu Neal had just caught the ball that Foles put right in his bread basket.
What if Desean Jackson doesn't return that kick in 2010? Aaron Rodgers and the Packers miss the playoffs and never win the Superbowl.
What is Asante Samuel catches that high Eli throw in 42?
That's sports.
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In comment 13864701 Dave in Hoboken said:
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and was the best player in the league until he got hurt.
And his backup played as well if not better.
As well if not better? You may be the only person in the world with that view of things
They're just mad that Wentz proves their shitty little theory wrong.
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Foles was excellent in the NFCC game and SB but he wasn't that good outside of that.
He was terrible against OAK and DAL at the end of the reg season and really should have thrown a game-ending INT against ATL but it miraculously made it's way into Torrey Smith's hands and they wound up winning.
Funny how different the Foles narrative would have been if Keanu Neal had just caught the ball that Foles put right in his bread basket.
What if Desean Jackson doesn't return that kick in 2010? Aaron Rodgers and the Packers miss the playoffs and never win the Superbowl.
What is Asante Samuel catches that high Eli throw in 42?
That's sports.
i agree but dont compare that dropped INT to returning a kick for a score...one is making a play the other is missing a play a third grader would have made....samuel was a closer comparison but it was a VERY high ball and along the sidelines, the atlanta/philly play was as easy an INT as you will see in the NFL
So it's very surprise - beyond being Brady's blind side protection - that Solder would leave...
All true BUT: Belichick might feel bad for his kid, but that won't stop him from saying see ya.
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Foles was excellent in the NFCC game and SB but he wasn't that good outside of that.
He was terrible against OAK and DAL at the end of the reg season and really should have thrown a game-ending INT against ATL but it miraculously made it's way into Torrey Smith's hands and they wound up winning.
Funny how different the Foles narrative would have been if Keanu Neal had just caught the ball that Foles put right in his bread basket.
What if Desean Jackson doesn't return that kick in 2010? Aaron Rodgers and the Packers miss the playoffs and never win the Superbowl.
What is Asante Samuel catches that high Eli throw in 42?
That's sports.
If Samuel catches the ball, he comes down out of bounds and it doesn't matter.
Anyway - yes, it's sports - I get it. If Mike Carey blows the whistle, the helmet catch never happens, etc, etc..
My point is - Foles was fortunate to have the opportunity to continue playing and that the narrative on him would have probably been much different if Neal had caught a gimmie INT.
Up to that point, Foles really hadn't played anywhere near as well as Wentz.
Never said it was a stone-cold lock. But like 98% of the board, think it will be a mistake. But this is what you do because you're an ass-hurt clown that is a bigger fan of a player than the team. So, it's no surprise you're more concerned for a player over the actual team.
Amazingly awful logic, isn't it? But this is the same guy who thought Domenik Hixon was going to be a great replacement for Plaxico Burress, so..
Hes better than what was available last year during FA other than whitworth.
:(
You don't want a rookie or 2nd year QB behind a shitty o-line, either.
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In comment 13864721 dep026 said:
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In comment 13864701 Dave in Hoboken said:
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and was the best player in the league until he got hurt.
And his backup played as well if not better.
As well if not better? You may be the only person in the world with that view of things
They're just mad that Wentz proves their shitty little theory wrong.
I dont even know what the theory is or what was stated. But files played pretty damn well when he got in there.
For the Giants this was a must. Hopefully he adds veteran leadership, championship pedigree and stability. That will work for me.
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In comment 13864726 jlukes said:
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In comment 13864721 dep026 said:
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In comment 13864701 Dave in Hoboken said:
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and was the best player in the league until he got hurt.
And his backup played as well if not better.
As well if not better? You may be the only person in the world with that view of things
They're just mad that Wentz proves their shitty little theory wrong.
I dont even know what the theory is or what was stated. But files played pretty damn well when he got in there.
And Wentz played better than 'pretty damn well' the entire time he was in there for, which was the strong majority of the season.
You don't want a rookie or 2nd year QB behind a shitty o-line, either.
I agree. And we all know where I stand with Eli.
I have no theories tho haha
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In comment 13864748 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13864726 jlukes said:
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In comment 13864721 dep026 said:
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In comment 13864701 Dave in Hoboken said:
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and was the best player in the league until he got hurt.
And his backup played as well if not better.
As well if not better? You may be the only person in the world with that view of things
They're just mad that Wentz proves their shitty little theory wrong.
I dont even know what the theory is or what was stated. But files played pretty damn well when he got in there.
And Wentz played better than 'pretty damn well' the entire time he was in there for, which was the strong majority of the season.
Ummm. Ok
Whats my theory again?
Its no problem. I usually give pretty enough ammo but that time I was lost. As the biggest Eli fan ever... I want them to take a an number 2.
Let the era of Flowers/Hart be removed from our minds forever.
I do wonder what that means for FLowers, ORT? OG? Trade bait?
Defensively, they may think they can get back to the 2016 production with a new coach and improved health.
I just get the sense, they think they can get back into the playoff hunt next season.
My wild guess is that by signing Hyde, the Browns signaled they were targeting a very specific QB w/ #1 and weren't sure Barkley would be there @ 4. Hyde is insurance.
That would open the door for the NYG to grab Barkley if Cleveland "stole" their favorite QB (if they have one that qualifies - see "QB Hell")
I bet he'd perform better on the right side or on the interior.
We're going to find out soon enough.
I don't think he has any real trade value right now anyway.
Precisely... very short term thinking.
Same. Kudos to you for being able to see past your fanhood.
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*
Same. Kudos to you for being able to see past your fanhood.
And it doesnt mean its the end of ELi. Its a chance to go from 1 franchise guy to another. If Eli plays well this year, great. He still has another year. But you cannot pass on this opportunity. Because if we do, and we do have a good year - we may not get another opportunity to get a guy this high. And leaving it in the hands of Webb is very risky.
Solder over the course of his career has performed better than any lineman that was on the Giants last year - and is a leader in the mold that has shaped the Giants in the past at a position that is the most important position on the line.
Even at the 10-15 range he's far, far better than what we have and/or had.
You can continue to beef about how the Giants wasted their resources to get us into this position - but it's my view that solid moves being made to correct what has happened can still be appreciated. It makes no sense to admonish a new FO for the past mistakes of the Giants and spend all this time worrying about it and throwing it into the face of the future. Fact is this is a positive step, and Solder is a football guy - and fits the definition of a Hog-Molly. Booyah!
As far as OV and JPP go -- I didn't think they were bad signings when they were signed -- and I don't think they were bad signings now. Last year was a chit storm of epic proportions, but those are two very good players in my opinion, and they may perform better with a different coach in a different scheme, and now with 2 key pieces added next to them, and a changed atmosphere. In any event -- their signings were not only necessary when they were signed and made an immediate impact -- but their contracts were shrewdly designed so that the Giants could cut bait after the third year if needed. I also don't think you can make any kind of proper evaluation of their value based on last year.
+1
The Giants are not a Nat Solder away from competing for the NFL title.
If I'm the Eagles GM, I'm laughing right now.
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In comment 13864808 dep026 said:
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*
Same. Kudos to you for being able to see past your fanhood.
And it doesnt mean its the end of ELi. Its a chance to go from 1 franchise guy to another. If Eli plays well this year, great. He still has another year. But you cannot pass on this opportunity. Because if we do, and we do have a good year - we may not get another opportunity to get a guy this high. And leaving it in the hands of Webb is very risky.
That's how I feel, too. But supposedly, according to someone else, I think it's a "stone-cold lock" that we are, when in reality, it's just what we should do. Even if we're bad the next year or so, I don't know if we're going to get this high in the draft anytime soon.
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It reaks of protecting Eli for the final 2 years of his goodbye tour at the expense of future success.
Precisely... very short term thinking.
Huh?
The O line is the weakest part of the team and LT is a big part of that. With or without Eli, they needed to upgrade LT. How does this in any way affect our future sucesses negatively?
The Giants are not a Nat Solder away from competing for the NFL title.
If I'm the Eagles GM, I'm laughing right now.
I don't understand this logic.
No individual player is going to move the needle enough on their own - does that mean we shouldn't sign anyone?
Solder can still be part of a solution. This shouldn't take 5 years to fix. If it does, Gettleman is doing a poor job.
The Giants are not a Nat Solder away from competing for the NFL title.
If I'm the Eagles GM, I'm laughing right now.
You dont stay in medocrity unless you are poorly run and coached. We can easily be a playoff team next year. This rebuilding process is just a nonsense thing. We were 11-5 two years ago. We have all pro players in Snakcs, Collins, OBJ. We have pro bowl potential players in Engram, Ogletree, OV, JJ. Yeah the OL is a mess, but DG will find a way to fix it. We have weapons on the outside. We have a defense than can perform.
And last but not least we dont have McAdoo, Quinn, and Reese around anymore to fuck up the process. Losign those 3 puts us multiple steps forward to begin with. If Shurmur can tweak the offense and Betcher can get the guys motivated defenisviely - we can compete. Shot, we had the SB champions beat 2x last year if not for f'n special teams.
The Giants are not a Nat Solder away from competing for the NFL title.
If I'm the Eagles GM, I'm laughing right now.
They are making shrewd moves. Attempting to sign Andrew Norwell is smart. Signing Solder is smart. They were just expensive. Something had to be done in the short term so that Eli Manning or whoever is under Center next year doesn't die. The players being signed now are the present. Righting the ship has to start somewhere.
The future of the team will come in April.
The way you get into difficult shape is keep signing players to vastly overpaid contracts. Solder is a solid player. The Giants are not paying him like he is an elite player. He's not. He's a guy who gives up sacks. He's not a shut-down left tackle.
You want to know why the Giants suck? Because their draft picks have been so bad that they haven't bothered to re-sign any of them after their original contracts are over. This has been going on almost a decade now. And when we finally have one we want to keep (Hankins), we say we can't afford it and then have to draft his replacement.
The Giants are not going to get better due to free agency. They have to draft better and not allocate the bulk of their salary cap to about 6-10 free agents.
The way you get into difficult shape is keep signing players to vastly overpaid contracts. Solder is a solid player. The Giants are not paying him like he is an elite player. He's not. He's a guy who gives up sacks. He's not a shut-down left tackle.
You want to know why the Giants suck? Because their draft picks have been so bad that they haven't bothered to re-sign any of them after their original contracts are over. This has been going on almost a decade now. And when we finally have one we want to keep (Hankins), we say we can't afford it and then have to draft his replacement.
The Giants are not going to get better due to free agency. They have to draft better and not allocate the bulk of their salary cap to about 6-10 free agents.
I dont think anyone is disagreeing. But you can get better with FA, and the fact was that we got better in FA.
One of the big factors people are saying we didnt get Norwell was because JAX is better. Well lets start getting better players. Through FA and the draft. Solder is a solid start. Just keep going with it now DG.
The way you get into difficult shape is keep signing players to vastly overpaid contracts. Solder is a solid player. The Giants are not paying him like he is an elite player. He's not. He's a guy who gives up sacks. He's not a shut-down left tackle.
You want to know why the Giants suck? Because their draft picks have been so bad that they haven't bothered to re-sign any of them after their original contracts are over. This has been going on almost a decade now. And when we finally have one we want to keep (Hankins), we say we can't afford it and then have to draft his replacement.
The Giants are not going to get better due to free agency. They have to draft better and not allocate the bulk of their salary cap to about 6-10 free agents.
These are all correct. But LT is a point of failure. They can struggle at other positions and get by, but not having a LT can single handedly torpedo an offense.
I don't think anyone is thrilled, but this guys them time to get their drafting right and develop those guys over the next 2-3 years.
This roster is a shambles.
The way you get into difficult shape is keep signing players to vastly overpaid contracts. Solder is a solid player. The Giants are not paying him like he is an elite player. He's not. He's a guy who gives up sacks. He's not a shut-down left tackle.
You want to know why the Giants suck? Because their draft picks have been so bad that they haven't bothered to re-sign any of them after their original contracts are over. This has been going on almost a decade now. And when we finally have one we want to keep (Hankins), we say we can't afford it and then have to draft his replacement.
The Giants are not going to get better due to free agency. They have to draft better and not allocate the bulk of their salary cap to about 6-10 free agents.
You have to sign players in FA - you can't build a team exclusively through the draft.
Yes, we need to draft better. Reese and Ross bombed several drafts and that's why we're in this position.
But we need offensive line help no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's Eli Manning, Davis Webb, or a rookie from the 2018 class. We need a better offensive line. Whether you think Solder is elite or not, he's much better than what we've been putting out there and as someone put it before, if he was good enough for Tom Brady, he's good enough for us.
Reese had been treating the DT position a specific way his entire time here - I look at Joseph as a cap casualty more than Hankins. NYG didn't seem like they were dead set on retaining Hankins.
Solder makes the Giants better. The contract isn't the end of the world.
I agree NS doesn't make them a contender. However, NS allows the following:
1) they don't have to force an OT draft pick on an OT poor draft this year
2) they can focus the OL part of the draft strategy on the interior OL, a strength of the draft
3) they are more likely to keep their QB upright, reduce TOs, mitigate injury potential because they have a viable OT now
Where is Marshall Newhouse when you need him? LOL
This roster is a shambles.
Please explain the alternative. Not sign any free agents and go into the season with Ereck Flowers, John Greco, Brett Jones, John Jerry, and Chad Wheeler protecting the QB? Should we just tank the 2018 season so we get another high pick in the 2019 draft?
Do you think they'll fill every hole with the draft? They only have what, 5 picks? And you can't expect to hit on all of those.
We only have 5 picks and we have a lot more holes than that.
If you don't supplement your talent base in FA, you're not going to get anywhere. It's necessary for rebuilding teams AND contending teams.
I guess few have noticed that, for most of last season, Flowers was among the league leaders at LT in giving up the fewest pressures. Heck, even an eyeball test confirmed that. We didn't hear his name much regarding pressures and sacks for most of last season, did we? (Penalties might be another thing, not sure.)
But that improvement came at a price. Flowers was coached into setting up differently to cover rushes at the expense of his run blocking, which was not so much.
Solder does give up perhaps a few more pressures and sacks but is a solid run blocker.
So, maybe the best we can hope for (pre-draft) is Solder on the left, Flowers on the right...stand up, sit down, fight, fight fight!
We only have 5 picks and we have a lot more holes than that.
If you don't supplement your talent base in FA, you're not going to get anywhere. It's necessary for rebuilding teams AND contending teams.
This is the same guy who freaked out when the Giants re-signed Greco.
32 QBs have won 52 Super Bowls.
26 Super Bowls were won by QBs drafted early in round one.
4 were won by QBs drafted late in round one
22 were won by QBs drafted after the first round, or who were undrafted.
But now I think about it: DG is known for hiding hidden gems on the OL. That is much harder to do with finding a "diamond in the rough" LT, easier to do with guards. This move Solidifies LT, moves Flowers to his more natural RT position, and least makes me feel better about the tackle spots. Now DG can work his magic with the interior OL. If he does it right, we draft Barkley, and Eli and the offense get a spark from Shurmur's new plans/designs, I see no reason why this team doesn't have a shot at the playoffs.
Without a LT, I'm not sure what the hell we would have done. This is one of those rare instances it is worth it to overpay. It was basically what we had to do if we wanted any shot at being competitive this year.
Pepper... it seems to me that everything is revolving around Eli right now and I think that is exceptionally risky. The Stewart and Solder signings combined with the announcement that Eli is their guy tells me the Giants think Eli can still take them to the promised land. I think this is borderline delusional thinking.
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And I'll add ditto Linval Joseph.
This roster is a shambles.
Please explain the alternative. Not sign any free agents and go into the season with Ereck Flowers, John Greco, Brett Jones, John Jerry, and Chad Wheeler protecting the QB? Should we just tank the 2018 season so we get another high pick in the 2019 draft?
Do you think they'll fill every hole with the draft? They only have what, 5 picks? And you can't expect to hit on all of those.
You can't build a winner via FA. You can fill holes temporarily. Overpaying for avg to above avg won't solve the problem and creates problems down the line. And there's a pretty good chance they have another top 10 pick next year regardless.
The Giants are not a Nat Solder away from competing for the NFL title.
If I'm the Eagles GM, I'm laughing right now.
Eric - I think you need to look at Minnesota -- if you look there you will see that if you do plug in key holes your team can become quite competitive. That's not to say that the Giants shouldn't make shrewd moves in FA and draft well, in fact -- duh!! - but the facts are that there is some talent on this team now and some known holes. It sure as heck looks like those holes are being plugged up forcefully.
Beckham, Engram, Collins, Jack Rabbit, Snacks are solid Pro-bowl caliber players
OV, JPP, Tomlinson, Solder, Shepard, Oogletree, Ellison, DeOssie are in the next tier right behind them --
Jones, Gallman, Manning, Martin, Herlich, Halapio are solid if unspectacular
So your questions are Apple, Goodson, Thompson, A. Adams, Jerry, Perkins, J. Adams, Wheeler, Bizno, LG and WR#3
Sign Kicker and Punter and
Add a solid RB, 2 decent DBs and 2 soiid Guards in the Draft - and all of a sudden you just may have a solidly competitive team
I ain't throwing out the baby with the bathwater
Pepper... it seems to me that everything is revolving around Eli right now and I think that is exceptionally risky. The Stewart and Solder signings combined with the announcement that Eli is their guy tells me the Giants think Eli can still take them to the promised land. I think this is borderline delusional thinking.
Austin Howard is available. Not sure if Baltimore declining his option alters whether he counts for compensatory pick calculations.
The way you get into difficult shape is keep signing players to vastly overpaid contracts. Solder is a solid player. The Giants are not paying him like he is an elite player. He's not. He's a guy who gives up sacks. He's not a shut-down left tackle.
You want to know why the Giants suck? Because their draft picks have been so bad that they haven't bothered to re-sign any of them after their original contracts are over. This has been going on almost a decade now. And when we finally have one we want to keep (Hankins), we say we can't afford it and then have to draft his replacement.
The Giants are not going to get better due to free agency. They have to draft better and not allocate the bulk of their salary cap to about 6-10 free agents.
I can even name you Lival Joseph who should have been resigned... You resign Joseph you don't need to spend 10M a year for Snacks
Heck, I recall Eric posting last Summer that it was the best roster the Giants had put together in years.
Injuries and Locker Room issues (McAdoo failure, along with stubborn offensive tendencies) did this team in last year.
A few good signings, drafting 2nd in each of the first 5 rounds, and some luck on the injury front, and this group can win the division.
Pepper... it seems to me that everything is revolving around Eli right now and I think that is exceptionally risky. The Stewart and Solder signings combined with the announcement that Eli is their guy tells me the Giants think Eli can still take them to the promised land. I think this is borderline delusional thinking.
I think they had to be aggressive and get a starting-caliber offensive lineman.
I don't think we're going to make any other splashes. Every other move will be smaller-scale like Stewart/Martin.
But it seems like fixing the OL is a major priority and needs to be. Putting just one solid piece on it like this has a domino effect and benefits the rest of the line.
I expect Gettleman to spend an additional pick or two on the offensive line - whether it's Nelson early on or Hernandez in the 2nd.
The reason why being aggressive in FA hasn't worked for us in recent years is because we're not supplementing the free agents with the young talent.
And in 2016 - it did kind of work. Winning 11 games did happen and a lot of it was on the shoulders of those players we signed via FA.
Better drafting is the single most important component here. If Gettleman doesn't hit on more picks than Reese did, we're doomed no matter what.
If he does - this won't take long to fix.
The OL needs to be rebuilt. Gettleman went hard for the 2 best OL in FA.
The lockerroom needs to be cleansed. He let almost half the roster walk out the door without even attempting to resign them and brought in 3 former pro bowlers with high character.
I really don't understand all the griping. What would everyone prefer he do? If you cut Eli and don't sign any overpriced veterans you just have that many more holes to fill with undrafted free agents. When has that ever worked?
Solder-Allen-Jones-Flowers-UFA (TBD) perhaps?
Once gettleman was hired he probably convinced Mara that he could win and win with Eli...Mara wants to rebound after last year so I don't know what you expected if you didn't think we weren't going to make another run with Eli.
My thinking is this. The Giants are not a year or two away. How old is Eli in two years? And how likely is it he will be a better and not worse player in two years?
This reeks of the old Wellington Mara bandaid approach of the 1970s that Wellington himself later said was a huge mistake.
The NFL Champion Eagles are in the NFC East. We have to chase them by getting better than them. To me, it starts at QB. Patch-working around Eli seems desperate. It suggests to me John Mara is more worried about just being "decent" on the field again.
My thinking is this. The Giants are not a year or two away. How old is Eli in two years? And how likely is it he will be a better and not worse player in two years?
This reeks of the old Wellington Mara bandaid approach of the 1970s that Wellington himself later said was a huge mistake.
The NFL Champion Eagles are in the NFC East. We have to chase them by getting better than them. To me, it starts at QB. Patch-working around Eli seems desperate. It suggests to me John Mara is more worried about just being "decent" on the field again.
Yep. We're 6 years into a lost decade already and the patchwork approach is what helped get them there.
My thinking is this. The Giants are not a year or two away. How old is Eli in two years? And how likely is it he will be a better and not worse player in two years?
This reeks of the old Wellington Mara bandaid approach of the 1970s that Wellington himself later said was a huge mistake.
The NFL Champion Eagles are in the NFC East. We have to chase them by getting better than them. To me, it starts at QB. Patch-working around Eli seems desperate. It suggests to me John Mara is more worried about just being "decent" on the field again.
Rebuild, agreed...
Howie Roseman, pay him $15M
He was ridiculed because of which QB he chose (Smith).
They were 7-9 in 2015 and 2016 and then won the Super Bowl last year.
Look at Carolina. Their records fluctuate wildly. Last 5 seasons:
11-5
6-10
15-1
7-8-1
12-4
I don't believe major long-term rebuilds are a necessity. I do believe drafting well IS a necessity.
It's not out of the realm of possibilities that NYG are competitive again in as little as a year or two. It happens every year.
I don't want them to do make short-term mistakes at the cost of long-term success - but I'm not really seeing that here.
I think Solder helps now, and helps down the road.
We have to fix this line. Sitting on it and not signing anyone doesn't get us any closer to doing that and it's not realistic to expect to build the entire thing through the draft.
Pepper... it seems to me that everything is revolving around Eli right now and I think that is exceptionally risky. The Stewart and Solder signings combined with the announcement that Eli is their guy tells me the Giants think Eli can still take them to the promised land. I think this is borderline delusional thinking.
There are countless examples of teams winning SB's thanks to aggressive FA acquisitions - including 2007/2012. Denver, NE, and even Philly this past year. The key is having a management team/coaching staff that has a plan to strategically get production out of those signings. Gettleman was hired 5 minutes ago, it's a little soon to judge how his plan is going.
It was the right move. It was the way it was handled. It was a PR nightmare. Mara wasn't even present. A teary-eyed Manning was left alone in front of his locker with players laughing around him. Reese nowhere to be found too. McAdoo made the announcement matter-of-factly.
Giants got hammered. And made the situation worse by back-tracking.
This is the type of shit that has me worried about the way the franchise is being run right now.
He wanted Coughlin to sssume a feel-good role in the front office , with an opinion about personnel but no direct say. Given the circumstances , Coughlin would never accept it . Reese got another chance . It didnt work out .
and obviously not led by the best coach.
I am accepting the reality. But I am of the strong opinion that this is the wrong move. The Giants will not win another title with Eli as quarterback. It's time to move on. I can accept this if this is just a 1-year transition deal but if they think it is more than that, they are fooling themselves and wasting time.
RE: a complete rebuild - this team will probably have at least 20, more likely half of the 53 man roster replaced - what do you want - 40 new players, 45?
And who says they aren't adding a QB?
They were 7-9 in 2015 and 2016 and then won the Super Bowl last year.
Look at Carolina. Their records fluctuate wildly. Last 5 seasons:
11-5
6-10
15-1
7-8-1
12-4
I don't believe major long-term rebuilds are a necessity. I do believe drafting well IS a necessity.
It's not out of the realm of possibilities that NYG are competitive again in as little as a year or two. It happens every year.
I don't want them to do make short-term mistakes at the cost of long-term success - but I'm not really seeing that here.
I think Solder helps now, and helps down the road.
We have to fix this line. Sitting on it and not signing anyone doesn't get us any closer to doing that and it's not realistic to expect to build the entire thing through the draft.
Outside of Fletcher Cox the Eagles looked pretty dead in the water after Chip Kelly. Guys they signed in the offseason prior to drafting Wentz like Rodney Mccloud and Bradham were big pieces of the SB just a couple years later.
You sign some marginal veteran to compete with Flowers, Wheeler, and rookies. It sucks, but you have to start from scratch.
They gave Herzlich $65,000 in guaranteed money in his 1-year, $880,000 contract. Why did they give him ANY guaranteed money? That's just stupid.
You can. We'll see who they draft. But I'm starting to get the feeling that they are going to pass on the QB.
Who doesn't believe the defense can regain it's 2016 form? Who doesn't believe the Giants have a dynamic passing attack?
There are pieces missing for certain, AS THERE WERE in both 2007 and especially 2011 - the 2011 Giants were a LOST CAUSE. I still don't know how the hell they made the playoffs that season. They had lost 4 in a row, were 6-6 - 2 weeks later, the backbreaking home blowout loss to the Redskins put them to 7-7.
That was a inconsistent, injury-riddled team.
MORE:
- The 2011 Giants scoring defense was the worst of Super Bowl winners, ranking 25th after allowing an average of 25 points per game.
- Also notable is that the Giants' rushing offense was ranked 32nd (dead last) in the NFL with 1,427 yards, or an average of 89.2 rushing yards per game.
- The Giants finished the regular season with a -6 point differential (394 scored, 400 allowed), the worst differential of any Super Bowl champion.
- With a 9-7 regular-season record, the 2011 Giants were the first, and are the only, sub-10-win team to win the Super Bowl.
- The 2011 Giants are the only team to win the Super Bowl as the NFC's 4th Seed.
2011 proved to me that as long as Eli Manning is at the helm, there is hope.
Jax was one of the worst teams in the NFL in 2016. Good coaching and management can go a very long way.
Again, there will probably be 25 new players on this team, that's almost half the roster.
Funny that on good year had everyone saying boom or bust yet mostly everyone had the team dead after the 2015 season.
This team needs a few hits but it could compete right away. One shit season with the worst HC in history doesnt change my view. They have pieces to work with.
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maybe the fans should take some blame. At 2-9, McAdoo wanted to take an honest look at QB and was absolutely ridiculed. The further I get from the Eli saga, the more I think it was the right move and was completely overblown. Sadly, the Giants may still be reacting to that.
It was the right move. It was the way it was handled. It was a PR nightmare. Mara wasn't even present. A teary-eyed Manning was left alone in front of his locker with players laughing around him. Reese nowhere to be found too. McAdoo made the announcement matter-of-factly.
Giants got hammered. And made the situation worse by back-tracking.
This is the type of shit that has me worried about the way the franchise is being run right now.
they only got hammered cause mike francesa went on his final epic rant,the sports local and national media followed and piled on like never before,throw in the geno factor which caused the fans to behave like little girls at their first beatles concert.mara did his usual coward thing and hear we are.
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Solder?
You sign some marginal veteran to compete with Flowers, Wheeler, and rookies. It sucks, but you have to start from scratch.
In that case, you are setting up Webb or (Rosen, Darnold, Allen) for a David Carr Houston career. You have to take care of the next QB and they did so w this FA acquisition.
To my mind, there's a big difference between saying that Eli can still play versus, we are planning our future around him.
And, I can't think of a QB I'd rather having my new QB sitting behind.
Can we keep track of everyone who thinks this is a great move and who next year is bitching because we don't have any cap space?
Who doesn't believe the defense can regain it's 2016 form? Who doesn't believe the Giants have a dynamic passing attack?
There are pieces missing for certain, AS THERE WERE in both 2007 and especially 2011 - the 2011 Giants were a LOST CAUSE. I still don't know how the hell they made the playoffs that season. They had lost 4 in a row, were 6-6 - 2 weeks later, the backbreaking home blowout loss to the Redskins put them to 7-7.
That was a inconsistent, injury-riddled team.
MORE:
- The 2011 Giants scoring defense was the worst of Super Bowl winners, ranking 25th after allowing an average of 25 points per game.
- Also notable is that the Giants' rushing offense was ranked 32nd (dead last) in the NFL with 1,427 yards, or an average of 89.2 rushing yards per game.
- The Giants finished the regular season with a -6 point differential (394 scored, 400 allowed), the worst differential of any Super Bowl champion.
- With a 9-7 regular-season record, the 2011 Giants were the first, and are the only, sub-10-win team to win the Super Bowl.
- The 2011 Giants are the only team to win the Super Bowl as the NFC's 4th Seed.
2011 proved to me that as long as Eli Manning is at the helm, there is hope.
xmeadowlander, are you in reality Rip van Winkle :-) ? This is 2018, not 2012. Eli Manning is no longer capable of catching lightning in a bottle and carrying a team on his back to a fluke title. While you have been asleep, what you have written has been the Giants "plan" for the last 6 yrs until Jerry Reese was finally fired (not sure if you were awake yet for that :-) ).
And btw, the 2007 team was not a lost cause from a personnel standpoint. That team was loaded. The question was if TC could change his approach so as to still be TC but not be overbearing because the team was tuning him out.
no he is not,case keenum closed.
Thing about pass protection - best pass protection is a solid running game. If they don't take QB - I'm thinking Nelson.
We don't have a running game. We haven't had one in years. Eli is a gun-shy QB who can't move. Those who can't see that are in denial.
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but, Blake Bortles, & Keenum, came pretty close to the big dance last year and he's way better than both of them.
We don't have a running game. We haven't had one in years. Eli is a gun-shy QB who can't move. Those who can't see that are in denial.
Well with a compotent left tackle and his WRs - maybe he wont be gun shy?
My thinking is this. The Giants are not a year or two away. How old is Eli in two years? And how likely is it he will be a better and not worse player in two years?
This reeks of the old Wellington Mara bandaid approach of the 1970s that Wellington himself later said was a huge mistake.
The NFL Champion Eagles are in the NFC East. We have to chase them by getting better than them. To me, it starts at QB. Patch-working around Eli seems desperate. It suggests to me John Mara is more worried about just being "decent" on the field again.
The Giants may be behind the curve because they drafted badly, but what is your point? They have to try to field a respectable team. DG can't do anything about draft history right now, this March. How does signing Solder obstruct a good draft or hinder the development of the team, say 2 years from now? If it becomes a pattern of making up for bad drafts with aggressive FAs, I get the point, but it is not a pattern yet with our current GM.
I also don't think the signing of Solder has anything to do with a commitment to Eli Manning.
Going into this season without major upgrade there is insanity. And I think DG & Shurmur have that in mind.
In other words, putting the more talented player in the right position to succeed. We are NOT years away from competing or making the playoffs. Make the playoffs and anything can happen. Every Giants should never dismiss that. WE KNOW BETTER!
I think Mara is calling the shots. Either that or Gettleman is playing possum with the draft and intends to take the QB.
Right now, if you ask me, Mara's decision-making has been dreadful the last few years. Seems like a nice guy, but the buck stops with him... Reese, Ross, McAdoo, Coughlin, Eli benching, etc. Until he starts making good choices that pan out, I think he does not deserve the benefit of the doubt. This franchise has turned into a laughing stock in just a few years.
Funny that on good year had everyone saying boom or bust yet mostly everyone had the team dead after the 2015 season.
This team needs a few hits but it could compete right away. One shit season with the worst HC in history doesnt change my view. They have pieces to work with.
BINGO!! +1
I understand taking your lumps to build a more complete roster...but if you're trying to develop a QB, I don't think it's a smart move to take those lumps across the entire OL.
He claimed the offense was broken when it really had more to do with the deterioring OLine.
jt, I think you and I have been on the same page throughout this whole season. We have been in the minority.
Looking forward to see it all play out.
Depends on your team building philosophy. Gettleman's is clearly to get back to controlling the LOS first.
Can we keep track of everyone who thinks this is a great move and who next year is bitching because we don't have any cap space?
That's fair - and I don't think he is elite. But I do think it is imperative to give the new QB (as soon as they turn the page) a fighting chance as opposed to an insurmountable challenge. Solder at LT starts to point us in that direction. Still much work to do.
Management hasn't said anything to agree with. Everything they've said is exactly what they'd say if they believed in Eli, and also exactly what they'd say if they didn't believe in Eli.
Essentially, you agree with yourself, that's it. Nothing that has been said or done has tipped NYG's hand with respect to their QB situation. You're choosing to believe in the scenario in the way that you hope it plays out, and that's fine. But there's nothing (yet, anyway) to confirm, or even suggest, that your perspective is any more rooted in reality than anyone else's.
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In August of 2017 the Giants were clearly a super contender. All systems go! No major weaknesses. Team falls apart due in large part to mcadoo being a massive failure as HC. Injuries mount. Ownrship fires HC mid season. Team finished in dead last. And now the team is years and years from competing? One bad year changed everything?
Funny that on good year had everyone saying boom or bust yet mostly everyone had the team dead after the 2015 season.
This team needs a few hits but it could compete right away. One shit season with the worst HC in history doesnt change my view. They have pieces to work with.
BINGO!! +1
It's not just 1 shit season though, 2016 was our only playoff appearance in six seasons...and we got our doors blown off in the WC round. The team was deteriorating for while, it's just that the bottom finally fell out last year.
The same people piling on Reese for being such a horrible GM are the ones championing the talent that he left on this roster.
Not only do we have a legit starting LT but it probably salvages the career of one of our more recent draft picks that was in jeopardy.
gidiefor : Mod : 1:07 pm : link : reply
Eric - I think you need to look at Minnesota -- if you look there you will see that if you do plug in key holes your team can become quite competitive. That's not to say that the Giants shouldn't make shrewd moves in FA and draft well, in fact -- duh!! - but the facts are that there is some talent on this team now and some known holes. It sure as heck looks like those holes are being plugged up forcefully.
but that's just it.....there are too many holes. And what Minny did was the exception and not the norm....
Beckham, Engram, Collins, Jack Rabbit, Snacks are solid Pro-bowl caliber players
OBj wants his money, and in some form that may rear it's ugly head this season....Engram has to take that next step.....Will the real Landon Collins please stand up?
OV, JPP, Tomlinson, Solder, Shepard, Oogletree, Ellison, DeOssie are in the next tier right behind them --
DeOssie? Tomlinson has a long way to go....JPP has his money, 'nuff said....OV has problems staying on the field, and has not lived up to his press releases....Solder helps a line that still has problems.....Shepard did not take that next step last season.....Ogletree can't play all the linebacker positions at once.....Ellison? Really?
Jones, Gallman, Manning, Martin, Herlich, Halapio are solid if unspectacular
If you are lumping Manning with the likes of Jones, Gallman, Herz, what the hell does that say about Manning?
So your questions are Apple, Goodson, Thompson, A. Adams, Jerry, Perkins, J. Adams, Wheeler, Bizno, LG and WR#3
Yes I do question the FS, 2nd and 3rd CB positions, linebacker positions(outside of Ogletree), and absolutely no depth in backups for the defense.....
Nate Solder alone is not going to fix this OL.....Jones is a stop gap center....We don't even know if Flowers can learn another position, never mind the fact he probably won't be here next year....so where is the rest of this line? And what about their backups? How long will it take them to gel?
Perkins, Gallman, and Stewart? Is that enough to scare any team? And yes, we need another WR......
And a punter and kicker...
This team may have some good starters, but if we get hit with the injury bug again, this team can go south quickly...
I agree with Eric......I don't think the Giants have learned their lesson for the last 6 seasons.....they still think they are one or two players away......
I think they spent too much on Solder.....
There are some on BBI that think Eli is still capable of being the 2011 Eli......Sorry, that ship has sailed....he can still play, but he needs a solid OL in front of him, and a running game.....Physically, he is not the same player....and I have no idea how you can reset that lock in his head....
He claimed the offense was broken when it really had more to do with the deterioring OLine.
The vibe I get from Mara is he always thinks the Giants are just a piece or two away. "If we just replace Coughlin with McAdoo and keep everyone else..." "If we just surround Eli with better players..."
This team was an atrocious train wreck last year on offense and special teams...and the defense completely regressed. Clearly they don't think it's just the coaching or they wouldn't have fired Reese and Ross... which also suggests to anyone clearly thinking that they think the roster is a mess too.
If you think the roster is a mess, then why would you stick with a 37-year old declining QB? And if you don't think the roster is a mess, why did you fire the GM and College Scouting Director?
The OL - even with Solder - is still a mess. Do we have a starting RB? We don't have a starting WR opposite of Beckham. The CB situation is getting scary. Who are our kickers? Etc.
Would it REALLY shock anyone here that Mara told the recently-fired Gettleman (who is in retirement age) that if you come here, Eli is the starting QB? It wouldn't shock me. It also wouldn't shock me if Mara was the one who said we're re-signing Herzlich.
Now again, I'm OK with keeping Eli as long as they serious consider the possibility that he is done and make contingency plans (either draft a QB high or have some unbelievable conviction in Webb). But if they think Eli is ready to get us back to the title game, than I think that is crazy thinking.
"We don't think the Philly game was a mirage!" (WTF about the other 14 games?)
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Well agree to disagree. I've told everyone they were passing on a qb. I think you will be surprised. I have a strong conviction eli will make a lot of people eat a lot of crow. I agree w management. I think we have a really good chance to bounce back this year. I really believe your wrong
Management hasn't said anything to agree with. Everything they've said is exactly what they'd say if they believed in Eli, and also exactly what they'd say if they didn't believe in Eli.
Essentially, you agree with yourself, that's it. Nothing that has been said or done has tipped NYG's hand with respect to their QB situation. You're choosing to believe in the scenario in the way that you hope it plays out, and that's fine. But there's nothing (yet, anyway) to confirm, or even suggest, that your perspective is any more rooted in reality than anyone else's.
Don't even bother. Not worth the time.
First of all, that's not entirely true. Goff didn't play right away. Mahomes didn't play right away. In fact, even Trubisky and Watson didn't technically enter the season last year as the nominal starters. They can absolutely draft a QB at #2 and have him sit behind Eli for a year, or even just part of the year, depending on how the season plays out.
The fact is, there is absolutely nothing to support your opinion that they're going to try to load up for another run with Eli any more than there's anything to support anyone else's opinion that they're going to tear the whole thing down and rebuild, or any other option in between those two ends of the spectrum.
Think about this, though. Since Reese, Ross and McAdoo have been let go, even the beat writers have gotten nearly every single prediction/report wrong. Yet you choose to believe that Gettleman is completely honest and forthright when he speaks to the media about the QB situation? That's his truth serum?
It's fine that you are hoping that everything plays out one particular way, so much so that you have convinced yourself that it absolutely will play out that way. But it's really just your opinion and your hope. Every scenario is still possible at this point.
Right or wrong, the prior staff and GM who knew him best clearly saw Eli as part of the problem. The owner requested to start getting the young QBs a look and signed off on benching Eli. The new GM is saying the things to indicate they are all in on Eli, but there is no motivation for him to say otherwise. You just don't know. Actions will prove, not coach speak. You are not going to win any points with anyone by coming in as they new guy and trashing the endeared SB winning QB and DG is well aware of the backlash with the Eli benching.
Eli being here doesn't confirm anything.
The two titles were amazing and I wouldn't trade them for anything, but to objectively move forward that sentiment has to be separated from the strategies and philosophies employed over that time period.
He's not better than Bortles right now.
I agree with you, not right away but after some time as an assistant or consultant he should get a shot given his early success.
You may feel different, but I've noticed an inconsistent correlation between posters that believe Reese was absolute trash and those that think we still have enough talent to make a run. The two don't align. Who knows, I could be off and may just be another victim of the "but BBI tells me" cliche that I see all the time.
And McAdoo was clearly not ready for the step up.
RE: a RB - they will draft one. RE: wr opposite Beckham. Shepard one or several of the youngsters will step up and then there is Engram - he is analogius to a wr threat.
College scouts & Reese got tossed because of too many whiffs - 2 OL Round 1, 1 OL Round 2, Several DEs in Round 3, DT in round 2. Think it may have been an inept souting department and Reese too enamored with "Hey, look how athletic this guy is - he's got a high ceiling". Poor drafting was obvious to anyone with eyes.
Defense - well they have talent, but, think Spags was better with TC looking over his shoulder. Think it was Ohara that recently said Spags was always wanting to do these exotic schemes and TC would restrain him, a bit. That was the knock on him with either Ravens or Eagles.
It would also be a wise move for those, like me, who still think Eli can play. Why risk your franchise QB? He's not that mobile, they have no running game and they are struggling in protection.
Playing Geno or Webb did not necessarily mean Eli was done.
(1) the offensive line was a mess
(2) our running backs were not good
(3) Brandon Marshall sucked then got hurt
(4) our quarterback didn't play well
I saw plenty of plays where Eli had plenty of time with wide open receivers and he misfired. I saw plenty of times we were in 3rd-and-10 because our RB couldn't hit a hole. I saw plenty of times where our receivers were blanketed. I saw plenty of times where our offensive line or tight ends couldn't block.
It wasn't all just the OL. And if you think it was, we're screwed because the OL isn't going to magically turnaround in 2018.
The two titles were amazing and I wouldn't trade them for anything, but to objectively move forward that sentiment has to be separated from the strategies and philosophies employed over that time period.
I disagree. The whole Eli era has been a series of questionable drafts + free agency by Jerry Reese with an overemphasis on skill positions relative to the OL/DL, especially after Gettleman left. Mara wants to try to win every year, as is his right but they have never spent themselves into cap hell. They have very rarely signed players over 30. They had a GM with a flawed vision of team construction and they were too slow to realize it.
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Gettleman and Mara had the plan before he was hired. You have to know that right. I'm not saying its impossible they go qb but its unlikely. The plan is to try to win w eli this year and next. I think deep down you know that even if you disagree. I really do think you will have a lot of crow to eat regarding eli though
jt, I think you and I have been on the same page throughout this whole season. We have been in the minority.
Looking forward to see it all play out.
I'll join your minority
Eli definitely must improve on his throws to the backs. It seems they waste too many running plays with low probability of success to set up play action.
I agree with your point about Reese's drafting, but I think that was a symptom of a larger problem.
How are your young wrs,RBs and qbs supposed to learn how to:
KICK ass
if they are constantly being put
ON their ass.
OL IS a transition tool!
And yes. It obviously effects the wrs. See. Season. 2017
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It couldn't be more obvious that McAdoo saw Eli as part of the problem. Everything he said and did supports that. And Reese didn't exactly hide the fact that he had questions. He used a 3rd round draft pick on a QB in an offseason when they didn't hide they were planning for Eli's successor and comments along the way such as skittish, etc.
Eli definitely must improve on his throws to the backs. It seems they waste too many running plays with low probability of success to set up play action.
eli executes screens and the short passing game like elaine dancing on seinfeld.
You make a good point re" how quickly can they turn OL around. Million dollar question - too many unknowns. How much of poor OLIne play was due to scehem and coaching decisions - Giants played some of their most competitive games against the Eagles, one of best DLines. We don't know what we have in a few of the youngsters - Wheeler, Dunker.
You have an immobile QB with no running game & OLIne struggling in pass protection, & a coaching staff in over their head. Think it made things look worse than they were.
They have a center they think can play in Jones. Hopefully Flowers can plug in somewhere - probably RT. Solder. I think you may see someone like Halapio start. And they will bring in some new talent. It's a heavy lift but it could be done. Will it? - FIIK. Hoepfully. Thing about OLines is that they are always supposed to amount to more than the sume of their parts. We'll see. And there are still moves to be made in FA.
Can we keep track of everyone who thinks this is a great move and who next year is bitching because we don't have any cap space?
Hey, I wanted Ramczyk!
I think the proponents of this signing realize it's a shitty contract. Personally, I'm alright with it because we really didn't leave ourselves any other legitimate options.
They drafted Webb. Of course. Eli is over 35, why wouldn't they be thinking of his successor?
Again, thinking about life after Eli and that he can still play are not mutually exclusive.
I still think the biggest affront was the way it was done, not that it was done.
I have a lot of problems with John Mara's recent past. The decision to walk totally back on the Eli decision at the expense of getting a look at Webb on real game film was a travesty, Eli should have started the first couple of games after McAdoo was canned while Webb was accelerated before ultimately handing it over to him. But what's done is done.
The Giants are going to try to compete in 2018 whether you like it or not. The landscape in the NFL is such, that you are stupid if you don't try. Any number of things can happen in the NFL next year including the Eagles being ravaged by injury and flopping. It's a year to year proposition unless you're the Pats or the Browns.
If the Giants (after adding Solder), select Barkley in the 1st and a plug and play Guard in round 2, are we as worried about Eli and the run game as we are now? Things can turn around in a hurry. They might also be able to swing a trade down for a generational OG and pick up additional picks in 2019.
As for the QB position, Shula was personally at Baker Mayfield's pro day today. Due diligence is being done. If they like a QB they'll very likely take him and not look back. There is also the fact that we have a 3rd round pick with some ability who has now been around Eli Manning every day for almost a year, learning, studying and developing habits. We also hired a head coach who made something out of Case Keenum and has a reputation of a magic touch with QBs. Why BBI has taken the position that Davis Webb is a total non-factor I have no idea, but I doubt DG and PS feel the same way.
Question: Had they signed Norwell, would they/could they still have tried for Solder?
I agree with your point about Reese's drafting, but I think that was a symptom of a larger problem.
That I agree with, but to me the larger problem you're articulating is that Mara isn't a great front office executive - most (all) owners aren't. His judgement was off on Jerry Reese which led to him believing terribly flawed advice that it was the coaching, not the personnel.
As best we can tell as fans, I liked the hires of Gettleman and Shurmur. I think he chose a GM who is clearly unafraid to speak his mind and not just a 'yes man'. He also has a good track record in the specific areas this team needs improvement - toughness, OL, DL. I don't think it's fair to lump decisions this new regime is making in efforts to improve areas of weakness with the philosophy of the previous regime - beyond the obvious that Mara is always trying to win. If they pass on the next Andrew Luck because they have Davis Webb that will be a huge blunder. Signing a competent veteran LT isn't a blunder for a team with a desperately terrible OL.
Question: Had they signed Norwell, would they/could they still have tried for Solder?
I was wondering the same thing. My guess...No.
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In comment 13865394 UberAlias said:
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It couldn't be more obvious that McAdoo saw Eli as part of the problem. Everything he said and did supports that. And Reese didn't exactly hide the fact that he had questions. He used a 3rd round draft pick on a QB in an offseason when they didn't hide they were planning for Eli's successor and comments along the way such as skittish, etc.
Eli definitely must improve on his throws to the backs. It seems they waste too many running plays with low probability of success to set up play action.
eli executes screens and the short passing game like elaine dancing on seinfeld.
LOL - great line.
Look, Eli has had a great career, so I don't mean this as anything more than a comical comment. But can you think of a less athletic QB. Despite his lack of foot-speed, I don't mean slower because guys like Scott Mitchell have that dishonor. I just mean general coordination i.e. to throw a soft catch-able dump off pass or to be able to run 10 yards or little slide that most QBs mastered in 9th grade.
Kind of like having the nicest house on a really shitty block.
Not the best resale position.
Thought Eli has some left, but season was lost, what better opportunity to see what backups could do. Should have stuck with it and gave Webb a shot. And, why leave Eli in there to get knocked around. At least Smith has some wheels and has a fighting (Flighting) chance to survive
They drafted Webb. Of course. Eli is over 35, why wouldn't they be thinking of his successor?
Again, thinking about life after Eli and that he can still play are not mutually exclusive.
Regarding the drafting of Webb, it is not only that they drafted Webb. Following the poor offensive showing in 2016 there were comments from both the GM and Mara about the need for better play at QB, and you also have stronger negative comments from the GM like calling Eli skittish. Those signs are not about preparing for life after Eli, they are comments addressing the issues facing the offense and were inclusive of the need for better play at the QB position.
Greg from LI : 10:45 am
But he's definitely an improvement
I think what jt is alluding too, is that if Eli himself thought they were using him as a stop gap, perhaps he would not be still be here, and would be looking to win somewhere else.
Two ways to look at that statement.
I still think the biggest affront was the way it was done, not that it was done.
Signing a good LT is a good move whether Eli Manning is the QB or Davis Webb or Geno Smith or Sam Darnold.
Passing on the next Andrew Luck would be a bad move regardless almost any factor, including Eli Manning's presence as the likely starting QB.
The 2 decisions are not mutually exclusive and quite simply come down to the scouts getting their evaluations right.
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In comment 13865406 Gothamist said:
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In comment 13865394 UberAlias said:
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It couldn't be more obvious that McAdoo saw Eli as part of the problem. Everything he said and did supports that. And Reese didn't exactly hide the fact that he had questions. He used a 3rd round draft pick on a QB in an offseason when they didn't hide they were planning for Eli's successor and comments along the way such as skittish, etc.
Eli definitely must improve on his throws to the backs. It seems they waste too many running plays with low probability of success to set up play action.
eli executes screens and the short passing game like elaine dancing on seinfeld.
LOL - great line.
Look, Eli has had a great career, so I don't mean this as anything more than a comical comment. But can you think of a less athletic QB. Despite his lack of foot-speed, I don't mean slower because guys like Scott Mitchell have that dishonor. I just mean general coordination i.e. to throw a soft catch-able dump off pass or to be able to run 10 yards or little slide that most QBs mastered in 9th grade.
like when he tried to slide and fumbled which cost them a chance to beat philly a few years ago. he is the worst qb i have seen at executing screens.
Gilbride knew, better than anybody, who Eli was and warned them that OLine was deteriorating. They heeded his advice too late.
Reminds me of Shooter McGavin's David Hasselhoff joke that he keeps telling.
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Mara's take-away from December 2017 was that Eli Manning can't be benched/discarded, then pray Eli turns it around.
I still think the biggest affront was the way it was done, not that it was done.
Signing a good LT is a good move whether Eli Manning is the QB or Davis Webb or Geno Smith or Sam Darnold.
Passing on the next Andrew Luck would be a bad move regardless almost any factor, including Eli Manning's presence as the likely starting QB.
The 2 decisions are not mutually exclusive and quite simply come down to the scouts getting their evaluations right.
There are no Andrew Lucks in this draft.
Reminds me of Shooter McGavin's David Hasselhoff joke that he keeps telling.
i will use it until you use it. then my work will be done.
A year from now, I suspect many will be opining not drafting a QB at #2, or bypassing Barkley, etc if they skip a QB and then flame out in 2018.
Remove the names involved: if you were advising a team with a 37 year old QB coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, how would you tell them to proceed?
Objectivity is needed here. What happened in the past is moot. What is Eli going to be?
Respectfuly disagree about Eli. Think there's a little left in the tank but you absolutely have to support him with a good OLine and running game.
New DC should help too.
Remove the names involved: if you were advising a team with a 37 year old QB coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, how would you tell them to proceed?
Objectivity is needed here. What happened in the past is moot. What is Eli going to be?
Eli is going to be better than any other QB option available to us during the next two years.
The second overall pick is not the only way to find a good QB these days. Russell Wilson (as you mentioned), Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garapolo were all had in later rounds.
There are many ways to build a team. System and controlling the LOS seem to be the option du jour these days, not the "get the QB and build around him", see Andrew Luck (as you mentioned).
Remove the names involved: if you were advising a team with a 37 year old QB coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, how would you tell them to proceed?
Objectivity is needed here. What happened in the past is moot. What is Eli going to be?
I don't think you ever just hand the reigns of a team to a rookie. The Browns acquired Tyrod Taylor for that exact reason. I think Eli is still better than Tyrod Taylor (and most of the other QB's getting insane contracts this offseason) and I see no reason to believe he wouldn't also be a great mentor to any young QB.
If I thought there was a franchise QB at 2 next month I'd take him without hesitation. That decision wouldn't change my approach in FA to surround him with the best team possible, especially a good OL. Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson aren't as effective as they were right away if they didn't have great running games.
So to me whether it's Eli or Sam Darnold, my approach to FA and rebuilding this roster would have probably still included going after Andrew Norwell and Nate Solder.
There are other possibilities such as taking a HOF level Guard after a trade back and if Eli doesnt play well you find yourself with 2 number 1 picks in 2019.
There is also the possibility of forcing the pick on a QB who sucks and watching Barkley and Nelson go on to all-pro careers elsewhere.
There is also the possibility of drafting Barkley or Nelson and Webb takes over in 2019 and finds success in Shurmur's system after a seamless transition.
It's not draft a QB with the #2 pick or the Giants are stupid.
Solder is a 30 year old LT and is very good. It's the most important position on the football field besides QB. This was a good move. Not sure how else you can swing it.
Respectfuly disagree about Eli. Think there's a little left in the tank but you absolutely have to support him with a good OLine and running game.
New DC should help too.
Darnold is my guy. If they decide no QB is worth, so be it.
But, we're going to be back at the top of the draft again before long.
It's the percentage play.
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So much depends on where they land. Even a top prospect like Luck has been hamstrung by incompetent management, while a third rounder in Russell Wilson landed in an excellent organization and won a Super Bowl.
Remove the names involved: if you were advising a team with a 37 year old QB coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, how would you tell them to proceed?
Objectivity is needed here. What happened in the past is moot. What is Eli going to be?
Eli is going to be better than any other QB option available to us during the next two years.
The second overall pick is not the only way to find a good QB these days. Russell Wilson (as you mentioned), Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garapolo were all had in later rounds.
There are many ways to build a team. System and controlling the LOS seem to be the option du jour these days, not the "get the QB and build around him", see Andrew Luck (as you mentioned).
That's quite an assumption. There's no way of knowing that. And given the talent level of this current class and what a guy like Watson was able to do when he got thrown into the fire, I'd be willing to bet this won't be true.
Look at what Wentz and Goff did in year 2. Both guys were better than Eli this year by a pretty wide margin.
We'll see where we're at when the dust settles, around November/December.
(1) the offensive line was a mess
(2) our running backs were not good
(3) Brandon Marshall sucked then got hurt
(4) our quarterback didn't play well
I saw plenty of plays where Eli had plenty of time with wide open receivers and he misfired. I saw plenty of times we were in 3rd-and-10 because our RB couldn't hit a hole. I saw plenty of times where our receivers were blanketed. I saw plenty of times where our offensive line or tight ends couldn't block.
It wasn't all just the OL. And if you think it was, we're screwed because the OL isn't going to magically turnaround in 2018.
The OL can magically turn around if they draft well. Good rookie OL are impacting immediately in the league.
Goff, maybe. Not Wentz.
He's far more mobile than Eli and just a better player right now. It's really not even that close, honestly.
Wentz was an MVP candidate last year. Eli hasn't even been in the conversation since 2011.
There's no crow to be eaten. I have not said that you're wrong, just that the certainty you seem to have isn't based on anything that you can possibly be certain about. Everything the team has said and done that you claim is proof that they're doing one thing, would be exactly the same if they were doing the complete opposite.
My point is just that your certainty stems solely from what you hope will happen, not from anything that definitively points in that direction.
EXACTLY!! Look I agree we are overpaying, but we are paying for our past sins!! Would everyone rather Gettleman sit on his hands and sign no one, then draft as many O-Linemen as he can. listen, Solder is no slouch, he will provide some much needed veteran leadership on that line. let's hope Gettleman can find another piece for the Line in F/A and add a draft pick or two to the mix.
The only stats where elite is elite is Super Bowl wins. He is a guy who raises his game in the playoffs. I would compare him to Claude Lemieux, a guy who was decent in the NHL regular seaslon but became the best player on the ice in the playoffs.
Most of his career Eli has been somewhere around the 8-12th best QB in the NFL. His career numbers are predicated on durability (very important for a QB), not because he was ever in a class with Brees or Peyton.
So, now he is probably the 12th best qb rather than the 7th or 8th. But he is still basically the same guy. Before, he was a bit overrated by Giants fans and we all would bristle when national media often failed to list Eli among the top QBs. Now, it has gone the other way, he is being undertated.
It is undeniable his game has declined a bit, but if you gave him the 2011 OL and Cruz and Nicks, he would still put numbers.
Marvin Austin instead of Marcus Gilbert (2011)
Ruben Randle instead of Brandon Brooks (2012)
Justin Pugh instead of Travis Frederick (2013)
Weston Richburg instead of Trai Turner (2014)
Ereck Flowers instead of Andrus Peat (2015)
Eli Apple instead of Laremy Tunsil (2016)
We'll see where we're at when the dust settles, around November/December.
Sounds good, but I don't want to hear anymore excuses either.
The only stats where elite is elite is Super Bowl wins. He is a guy who raises his game in the playoffs. I would compare him to Claude Lemieux, a guy who was decent in the NHL regular seaslon but became the best player on the ice in the playoffs.
Most of his career Eli has been somewhere around the 8-12th best QB in the NFL. His career numbers are predicated on durability (very important for a QB), not because he was ever in a class with Brees or Peyton.
So, now he is probably the 12th best qb rather than the 7th or 8th. But he is still basically the same guy. Before, he was a bit overrated by Giants fans and we all would bristle when national media often failed to list Eli among the top QBs. Now, it has gone the other way, he is being undertated.
It is undeniable his game has declined a bit, but if you gave him the 2011 OL and Cruz and Nicks, he would still put numbers.
Only Player to show up in the Green Bay Fiasco! which lends credence to what you said about his game when he's in the playoffs, he's a different QB.
I've said this, as well. But apparently some think you can't draft a QB at 2 and win anymore, which is odd considering Carson Wentz exists.
If we're going it for it this year & talking about 'one side eating crow', then the team better win alot of games AND have a pretty good playoff run. Not one and done. But win a couple of games in the playoffs.
Again, objectivity is needed. I will give you two numbers that are objective: age and cap number.
The only stats where elite is elite is Super Bowl wins. He is a guy who raises his game in the playoffs. I would compare him to Claude Lemieux, a guy who was decent in the NHL regular seaslon but became the best player on the ice in the playoffs.
Most of his career Eli has been somewhere around the 8-12th best QB in the NFL. His career numbers are predicated on durability (very important for a QB), not because he was ever in a class with Brees or Peyton.
So, now he is probably the 12th best qb rather than the 7th or 8th. But he is still basically the same guy. Before, he was a bit overrated by Giants fans and we all would bristle when national media often failed to list Eli among the top QBs. Now, it has gone the other way, he is being undertated.
It is undeniable his game has declined a bit, but if you gave him the 2011 OL and Cruz and Nicks, he would still put numbers.
This is the best take on Eli I've seen on this board. Overrated by Giants fans in his prime and overrated in his decline recently. He's always been a top 1/3 of the league starter with special intangibles. He's probably regressed a little to middle of the pack with special intangibles. My problem with loading up behind Eli is that we won't be able to build a good enough roster to take advantage of those intangibles before he actually is done. And that's me believing that most of his regression recently has been mental, even if he squares that part away, the physical regression is inevitable.
It's pretty clear how the Giants are approaching this, I just don't think it's the right call.
He was the MVP that year, in truest sense of what those letters stand for.
Remove the names involved: if you were advising a team with a 37 year old QB coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, how would you tell them to proceed?
Objectivity is needed here. What happened in the past is moot. What is Eli going to be?
If I loved one of the qbs im definitely taking a qb. Absolutely. Even with Barkley on the board Id take the qb and I love Barkley.
Is he a good QB? I think he still is, yes. Can he still sling it when he has time every so often like both Philly games? Yes. But overall is he playing like a franchise QB at the current moment? No. We are basically banking on him turning it around and playing at a very high level if we don't take a QB in this draft. The team isn't good enough to get by with Eli's warts. This isn't the 2006-2010 roster or even the 2011 roster. If we don't draft a QB, Webb better be damn good.
If you need the guy then thats what it takes.
Of course it is. But this isn't the first year Eli has struggled.
I think it's a pretty safe bet that one of the QB's drafted in April will be better than 37/38 year old Eli Manning within their first 2 seasons.
Some of you guys are blaming Eli's struggles on everything BUT Eli. He's had awful conditions, but he's also missing a lot of throws and not playing at a high level even when he does have some time to throw.
For every game against the Eagles where he threw for like 450 yards, there are about 7-10 performances that aren't even close.
I think sentimentality is absolutely clouding a lot of the visions here.
Is he a good QB? I think he still is, yes. Can he still sling it when he has time every so often like both Philly games? Yes. But overall is he playing like a franchise QB at the current moment? No. We are basically banking on him turning it around and playing at a very high level if we don't take a QB in this draft. The team isn't good enough to get by with Eli's warts. This isn't the 2006-2010 roster or even the 2011 roster. If we don't draft a QB, Webb better be damn good.
If you need the guy then thats what it takes.
Supposedly the Giants outbid the Texans and Patriots.
They can let Eli finish his contract, and they well might do it because sentimentality is part of the equation at play right now. But, it doesn't mean they can't draft a QB they covet at #2.
I'd rather draft Darnold and be ready for him to potentially step in in 2019, rather then skip him and put it all on Eli.
He also played well enough to win in Green Bay while his receivers dropped a million passes.
Eli is not still as good as his most ardent supporters think he is. I don't believe he's as bad as the typical "Eli throws high slants and get Beckham hurt" crowd.
He likely has 1-2 years left of adequate play if part of a good roster. He is not carrying a team any longer, but he definitely still can manage games and perform at a winning level.
Depends on what they do in the draft. Phil Simms had one of his best seasons in 1993 and the Giants cut him for Dave Brown. You are also making the assumption that Eli will magically revert back to what...his 2014-2015 form? Because he sucked in 2013 and wasn't very good in 2016 and 2017. Extenuating circumstances? Most likely. But he's 37 and those 2011 moments are fewer and fewer.
But there is a good chance you are right that Eli plays out his final two years here. But I can see him doing that and still playing at a very mediocre level. And we then have wasted two more years.
Look, Mara, Reese, and Ross screwed the team around Eli the last six years. But you can't go back in time and fit it. It's done. You have to move on.
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We're just ignoring playing environment? I'd say that is a big factor when evaluating a player's performance
Of course it is. But this isn't the first year Eli has struggled.
I think it's a pretty safe bet that one of the QB's drafted in April will be better than 37/38 year old Eli Manning within their first 2 seasons.
Some of you guys are blaming Eli's struggles on everything BUT Eli. He's had awful conditions, but he's also missing a lot of throws and not playing at a high level even when he does have some time to throw.
For every game against the Eagles where he threw for like 450 yards, there are about 7-10 performances that aren't even close.
I think sentimentality is absolutely clouding a lot of the visions here.
Players aren't robots, after being in a situation long enough it wears on you. The OL has been a mess for a while. It has a cumlative affect.
Not that long ago Mac was brought in, he and coughlin combined schemes and Manning played well. Coughlin leaves, the ol doesn't get better, maybe gets worse, Mac possibly strips coughlin's part of the offense, which seems like the only good part, Manning struggles. Manning deserves benefit of the doubt
I think you try to win with Manning now, because I believe he still has it, while drafting a QB and let him come in when the time is right. Sooner or later
I don't want Barkley because I haven't seen a top RB win a championship for his team. They are a complimentary player. At 2 you need an all pro 10 year starter type and we are not just a th away from competing. I would rather the. Take Nelson because the odds of a guard lasting 10 years or more is much greater. Teams have proven time and time again that star tbs can be had in later rounds. Some QBs have been but it's a lot less likely.
I am of the opinion that Eli is done. The decline has started and he was not an elite QB coming down to above average, he is a good qb coming down to average at best. The problem I have with Eli at this point is that he is a terrible short range passer, always has been. I can't see him improving at his age. Aging QBs need to cut down on mistakes and gambles and be more of a game manager but Eli has been more of a long passer. Our last 5 years have been pretty bad aside from 2016 which was fools gold. It's time to move on.
My guess is that they like Webb but I doubt they are willing to put all their eggs in his basket just yet. He is not going to be a factor in drafting a QB or not. Look at SD with Brees many years ago. They still took a QB because they thought it was an upgrade.
Guys like Norwell, Solder. Of course they won't singularly put us in the Super Bowl next season. The idea is they help the team rebound and grow in 2018. And because core players for the next NYG Contender, hopefully as soon as 2019.
Thrilly understands. It sucks that a guy like Nate Solder, who survived cancer and returned to play months later before his infant son was also diagnosed with cancer, earned a big contract. Impossible to root for a guy like that.
Dear Gettleman: please sign 1st Team All-Pro's in their early to mid 20s to league minimum salaries. Preferably guys without a family history of cancer. K thanks -- BBI dildos
Most people would say no. But can we make the playoffs? If so, then anything happens.
The only stats where elite is elite is Super Bowl wins. He is a guy who raises his game in the playoffs. I would compare him to Claude Lemieux, a guy who was decent in the NHL regular seaslon but became the best player on the ice in the playoffs.
Most of his career Eli has been somewhere around the 8-12th best QB in the NFL. His career numbers are predicated on durability (very important for a QB), not because he was ever in a class with Brees or Peyton.
So, now he is probably the 12th best qb rather than the 7th or 8th. But he is still basically the same guy. Before, he was a bit overrated by Giants fans and we all would bristle when national media often failed to list Eli among the top QBs. Now, it has gone the other way, he is being undertated.
It is undeniable his game has declined a bit, but if you gave him the 2011 OL and Cruz and Nicks, he would still put numbers.
Put it this way. How many QB are entering their 15th year
of play. I'm a very big Eli fan, as a football player
and a man. I hope your 'take' on this is true.
But waiting on Eli and Webb is really gambling this year.
I remember YA Tittle, an older QB, who took the Giants
to 3 championships in a row, following year image is YA on his knees blood running down his face and the Giants beginning a generation of pain for Giant fans.
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I doubt DG/Giants outbid others by some crazy amount... 5-10% more, maybe?
If you need the guy then thats what it takes.
Supposedly the Giants outbid the Texans and Patriots.
Reason I ask... when Giants signed Vernon, $85m seemed too high. If I remember right, it turned out that the Giants outbid the next highest by $5m, which is a very reasonable premium ($5m/$80m) to get the deal done.
1) I'd temper the expectations of Flowers playing RT. In today's NFL elite pass rushers line up on both sides, so if he can't play LT he probably can't play RT that much better.
2) Signing Solder, any of the moves this offseason and Eli being here have no impact on the #2 pick, nor should they.
3) Sure Eli might have a better year than last year but he's not going to be the guy from 2011. Could he be 2016 Eli? Sure, but father time is undefeated so the odds are he gets worse.
4) The Giants have as good of a shot of making the playoffs as they do of going 3-13 again. The NFL is year to year and anything can happen. We should be mad about signing a player that will not only help this year but next year as well. You offset the Solder deal by finding a franchise LT in the draft that lines up with when his contract is cuttable.
Flowers improved a great deal last year as much as no one will admit it. The problem was all across the line, not just Flowers. So to determine he cant play RT either is a flawed analysis he is a young player and their is no reason to think that with multiple other positions across the line and a natural LT in place, a guard in the draft, and a better offense with better play calling that this team cant win now while continuing to rebuild the roster and improve our depth over time. A lot of you guys are very narrow minded.
Yeah, that's making me slightly nervous.
Guys like Norwell, Solder. Of course they won't singularly put us in the Super Bowl next season. The idea is they help the team rebound and grow in 2018. And because core players for the next NYG Contender, hopefully as soon as 2019.
Thrilly understands. It sucks that a guy like Nate Solder, who survived cancer and returned to play months later before his infant son was also diagnosed with cancer, earned a big contract. Impossible to root for a guy like that.
Dear Gettleman: please sign 1st Team All-Pro's in their early to mid 20s to league minimum salaries. Preferably guys without a family history of cancer. K thanks -- BBI dildos
LOL, perfect.
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still hasn't been announced by the team.
Yeah, that's making me slightly nervous.
I saw another tweet saying he's en route to the Giants facility. We'll see.
So, I am glad we got Solder.... or potentially signed him
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In comment 13865969 Jon in NYC said:
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still hasn't been announced by the team.
Yeah, that's making me slightly nervous.
I saw another tweet saying he's en route to the Giants facility. We'll see.
Sweet. Last thing I need to see today is a Josh McDaniels'-esque reneg on this deal.
The only thing holding me back from "believe" to "know" is my disdain for Erick Flowers...
So, I am glad we got Solder.... or potentially signed him
Im sorry but I disagree....If you are using FA to fill your teams Big Hole then that tells me the GM is terrible at Drafting...
Example- Reese was so bad at drafting OL-DL-CB that he needed to spend serious cash on DL-CB and now Gettleman OL
So, he's not using this FA as a way to cover up his shitty drafting - he's using this FA as a way to cover up Reese's.
Why does it matter where the player comes from?
You have to address certain holes one way or another.
If we drafted Damon Harrison, he'd probably still be here making what he's making now. (Well, maybe not given the way Reese treated the DT position.. but you get the idea)
Some of you guys are looking in the wrong direction.
It's not signing FA's that is the problem - it's drafting poorly.
We have a new GM because the last one had several poor drafts. Now Gettleman is going to have to up his hit% because you cannot rebuild and fix a football team if you blow your drafts.
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that I prefer that we use free agency to fill a few big holes in the OL vs trying to patch it mostly via the draft. It is an extremely difficult position and finding free agents who have already proven themselves in this league is something I would prefer.
So, I am glad we got Solder.... or potentially signed him
Im sorry but I disagree....If you are using FA to fill your teams Big Hole then that tells me the GM is terrible at Drafting...
Example- Reese was so bad at drafting OL-DL-CB that he needed to spend serious cash on DL-CB and now Gettleman OL
lol, what?
Kerry Collins was a free agent pickup.
How many free agents were on the team that went to the super bowl against Baltimore?
For the people who think Tom Coughlin is the best thing to happen to this franchise and knows more about football than anyone, he just paid a Guard $13m a year.
He drafted several DT's that other teams felt were worth giving sizable 2nd contracts to and just drafted another one who is on the team now (Tomlinson)
He was also the one who drafted JPP.
Want to say that Reese was bad at drafting offensive linemen or linebackers? No argument there.
Defensive linemen? Nope.
DG isnt responsible for a single player that is on the roster outside of the few he just signed and traded for. Hes going to pay money to upgrade certain positions and we are going to draft others which will hopefully turn into a better pipeline long term.
Its not that hard of a concept to grasp.
He drafted several DT's that other teams felt were worth giving sizable 2nd contracts to and just drafted another one who is on the team now (Tomlinson)
He was also the one who drafted JPP.
Want to say that Reese was bad at drafting offensive linemen or linebackers? No argument there.
Defensive linemen? Nope.
Agreed
People complained that they wouldn't re-sign their DTs, but trusting your ability to draft replacements is a goldmine. If you can get that plug in and play DT every year, why would you pay out the nose to keep him?
People complained that they wouldn't re-sign their DTs, but trusting your ability to draft replacements is a goldmine. If you can get that plug in and play DT every year, why would you pay out the nose to keep him?
Exactly. Would be real nice if we could get a good cycle going on the OL too
...you make that kind of move for that kind of money if you really believe you are one or two key players/positions away from a serious run at the Super Bowl.
The Giants are trying to get out of the NFL basement, and paying mega-dollars for a 30-year old LT isn't the way to go IMO.
I've read on this thread about how Solder is here whether he's protecting Eli or a brand new QB.
I don't find that so reassuring.
Why?
Because maybe by the time Rosen/Darnold/Allen is ready for full-time play, Solder may be on his last legs.
We paid too much for one middle-aged guy when we need so many other guys for the long term.
Neverending complaints about how we don't have a real left tackle. How our offensive line has been ignored for years.
Then we sign the best tackle on the market, and people are still upset about it.
How exactly are we supposed to fix this line? We have other needs too, we can't just spend our entire draft on offensive linemen.
I really don't know what some of you guys want.
You have to start somewhere. The Giants' offensive line is better today than it was yesterday. That's the bottom line.
We were 11-5 prior to that and theres no reason we cant go right back there, we see it happen every year.
So I disagree. Pay the LT, have a good draft, get your best player back, and get this team up to speed on the current trends of the league (our new HC and DC should be able to do this).
I'm so fucking tired of reading through post after post complaining about how we should use our cap dollars differently followed by zero insight or suggestion as to how or who that money would be better spent on.
No one said he was. But hes certainly the biggest reason why we stunk last year, whether thats a 2 or 3 game swing isnt the point. Between him, the injuries elsewhere, the inability to sustain drives with a run game, and a defense that just stopped playing we found ourselves where we are now.
But McAdoos 1st season as HC was 11-5, rookie HCs are having a lot of success. Theres no reasons we cant get back into the thick of things.
The Browns went 0-16 and with Thomas retiring, getting Solder would have been big for them too. They have no QB, and are in the actual basement, should they not try upgrade LT?
This notion that only contenders should spend in FA is just stupid.
I'm so fucking tired of reading through post after post complaining about how we should use our cap dollars differently followed by zero insight or suggestion as to how or who that money would be better spent on.
I did that exact thing in 2016 and repeated it several times when asked. Didn't matter.
We were 11-5 prior to that and theres no reason we cant go right back there, we see it happen every year.
So I disagree. Pay the LT, have a good draft, get your best player back, and get this team up to speed on the current trends of the league (our new HC and DC should be able to do this).
Basement or playoffs? In the context of the last 5 years I see 2016's 11-5 record as an aberration. That's why I say we are more basement than playoff contender.
In any event, I'm with you... let's go out there and have a good draft!
Going for what? We stink. 3-13 is no joke. Eli was terrible and was never a great QB despite 2 SB MVPs. Hes not his brother and was never a top tier guy. We need to be honest with ourselves and admit it. Love the guy, but hes probably done. Draft a QB. Give Eli a year and move on. I hope this is the plan and you are wrong.
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Also, can we make it a prerequisite that when someone whines about asset allocation that they offer a viable alternative?
I'm so fucking tired of reading through post after post complaining about how we should use our cap dollars differently followed by zero insight or suggestion as to how or who that money would be better spent on.
I did that exact thing in 2016 and repeated it several times when asked. Didn't matter.
It just gives the argument actual substance and gives it somewhere to go.
If you say "I don't like this signing - we could have spent better money elsewhere," but follow that up by saying "here's who I would have targeted instead," I may not agree with it, but I can at least see where you're going with it.
People constantly complain when the Giants spend money but don't serve up any other solutions. A lot of it seems like complaining just to complain.
I feel like discussions just don't go anywhere when people do that and I see it all the time.
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In comment 13866220 arcarsenal said:
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Also, can we make it a prerequisite that when someone whines about asset allocation that they offer a viable alternative?
I'm so fucking tired of reading through post after post complaining about how we should use our cap dollars differently followed by zero insight or suggestion as to how or who that money would be better spent on.
I did that exact thing in 2016 and repeated it several times when asked. Didn't matter.
It just gives the argument actual substance and gives it somewhere to go.
If you say "I don't like this signing - we could have spent better money elsewhere," but follow that up by saying "here's who I would have targeted instead," I may not agree with it, but I can at least see where you're going with it.
People constantly complain when the Giants spend money but don't serve up any other solutions. A lot of it seems like complaining just to complain.
I feel like discussions just don't go anywhere when people do that and I see it all the time.
Agree 1000%
And, it seems people are missing this, he can block for Eli, Webb, or a potential 1st round draft pick.
Signing Solder doesn't mean the Giants are loading up for another run with Eli.
It just means they stabilized a position that would have been very hard to solve via the draft.
And they can still develop a LT while Solder holds down the fort.
Link - ( New Window )
He isnt 36, actually not even close to it.
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that I prefer that we use free agency to fill a few big holes in the OL vs trying to patch it mostly via the draft. It is an extremely difficult position and finding free agents who have already proven themselves in this league is something I would prefer.
So, I am glad we got Solder.... or potentially signed him
Im sorry but I disagree....If you are using FA to fill your teams Big Hole then that tells me the GM is terrible at Drafting...
Example- Reese was so bad at drafting OL-DL-CB that he needed to spend serious cash on DL-CB and now Gettleman OL
Are you blaming Gettleman for our OL problems? It sounds like it with your comparison ... unless you are saying that Gettleman has to spend money on the OL because of Reese?
Wait, whos 36?
"The #Giants are expected to sign former #Patriots LT Nate Solder, source said. They get their franchise left tackle. Huge get."
At his age it is a stop gap move at best ... not saying that Solder won't be productive at all but, "Franchise Left Tackle"?
2 years tops - he lasts.
That's who TTH is referring to.
I thought it would be a horrible move.
But by years end.....i regreted Reese not even trying.
"The #Giants are expected to sign former #Patriots LT Nate Solder, source said. They get their franchise left tackle. Huge get."
At his age it is a stop gap move at best ... not saying that Solder won't be productive at all but, "Franchise Left Tackle"?
2 years tops - he lasts.
Why wont he last more than 2 years? So many stupid comments here, its unreal.
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"The #Giants are expected to sign former #Patriots LT Nate Solder, source said. They get their franchise left tackle. Huge get."
At his age it is a stop gap move at best ... not saying that Solder won't be productive at all but, "Franchise Left Tackle"?
2 years tops - he lasts.
Why wont he last more than 2 years? So many stupid comments here, its unreal.
Yeah why not 1 year? Or no years?
This place is incredible.
LOL!!!!!
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In comment 13866293 short lease said:
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"The #Giants are expected to sign former #Patriots LT Nate Solder, source said. They get their franchise left tackle. Huge get."
At his age it is a stop gap move at best ... not saying that Solder won't be productive at all but, "Franchise Left Tackle"?
2 years tops - he lasts.
Why wont he last more than 2 years? So many stupid comments here, its unreal.
Yeah why not 1 year? Or no years?
This place is incredible.
Seriously hes only 30, so many idiots here.
You see, they want good players, but they want them to all play for free.
..and most of them are 10 years behind the times on player salaries.
Couldn't believe what I was hearing last bight on TV. Charlie Casserly was a NY Giants fan as a kid. It was on some show and they were discussing free agency money and what folks would do with it (after taking care of family, etc...).
CC says "I would buy all the 1956 Giant's Football cards - the entire team" and then proceeded to mention Frank Gifford, Rosie Grier, (and about 4-5 other players).... I couldn't believe it. I thought he was a Dallas guy.
LOL!!!!!
okay you made me laugh arc ....
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In comment 13866308 BigBlue4You09 said:
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In comment 13866293 short lease said:
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"The #Giants are expected to sign former #Patriots LT Nate Solder, source said. They get their franchise left tackle. Huge get."
At his age it is a stop gap move at best ... not saying that Solder won't be productive at all but, "Franchise Left Tackle"?
2 years tops - he lasts.
Why wont he last more than 2 years? So many stupid comments here, its unreal.
Yeah why not 1 year? Or no years?
This place is incredible.
Seriously hes only 30, so many idiots here.
30 ... my bad thought he was 32. Okay so that is a little bit younger but, saying we found our franchise LT. at this point in his career is a bit of a stretch. I guess it could depend on the position but, I figure you need to play for a team (on the OL in this case) for about 7-8 years to be considered a franchise anything (QBs longer).
Not saying I don't like the signing. I just think it is a stop gap move. Could be a longer than usual stop gap but, we will see.
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In comment 13866315 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 13866308 BigBlue4You09 said:
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In comment 13866293 short lease said:
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"The #Giants are expected to sign former #Patriots LT Nate Solder, source said. They get their franchise left tackle. Huge get."
At his age it is a stop gap move at best ... not saying that Solder won't be productive at all but, "Franchise Left Tackle"?
2 years tops - he lasts.
Why wont he last more than 2 years? So many stupid comments here, its unreal.
Yeah why not 1 year? Or no years?
This place is incredible.
Seriously hes only 30, so many idiots here.
30 ... my bad thought he was 32. Okay so that is a little bit younger but, saying we found our franchise LT. at this point in his career is a bit of a stretch. I guess it could depend on the position but, I figure you need to play for a team (on the OL in this case) for about 7-8 years to be considered a franchise anything (QBs longer).
Not saying I don't like the signing. I just think it is a stop gap move. Could be a longer than usual stop gap but, we will see.
Actually the other thing I like about this signing is it hastens the move to another position of Flowers. I doubt they will make Solder play somewhere else on the OL? Lets see what Flower can do at RT ... or (I would prefer he gets moved to) guard. I think he will make an excellent guard eventually.
He was certainly top 10.
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In comment 13866293 short lease said:
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"The #Giants are expected to sign former #Patriots LT Nate Solder, source said. They get their franchise left tackle. Huge get."
At his age it is a stop gap move at best ... not saying that Solder won't be productive at all but, "Franchise Left Tackle"?
2 years tops - he lasts.
Why wont he last more than 2 years? So many stupid comments here, its unreal.
Yeah why not 1 year? Or no years?
This place is incredible.
I am going to have to "google" that Uconn but, I don't think you can sign a player to no years.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
He was certainly top 10.
Absolutely. And was there, EVERY game. And had a penchant for winning it in the closing minutes by being fearless.
Eli Manning was a franchise QB, and a outstanding draft choice.
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At least they got someone who can play. I just don't know what to take from this as regards the draft.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
Norwell's four years younger. You can build around that.
Solder isn't ancient by any stretch, but signing a guy like that suggests to me they are leaning more heavily toward moves that make the team competitive in the short term rather than laying the foundation for the long term. I don't think you sign a guy at 30 if you're working on plan that you expect to return to meaningful games and consistent winning in two years.
I know Reese liked him back in the draft also.
Flowers as a sub par RT or G is much less deadly to Eli and our success , our OLine is getting stronger.
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In comment 13866393 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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At least they got someone who can play. I just don't know what to take from this as regards the draft.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
Norwell's four years younger. You can build around that.
Solder isn't ancient by any stretch, but signing a guy like that suggests to me they are leaning more heavily toward moves that make the team competitive in the short term rather than laying the foundation for the long term. I don't think you sign a guy at 30 if you're working on plan that you expect to return to meaningful games and consistent winning in two years.
Whats the difference between Solder playing solid LT for 4 years and Norwells contract expiring after 5? 1 year means our entire thought process at OL changes?
I just dont get this line of thinking. We didnt sign a 35 year old tackle . We signed a guy who can help us now and 2 years from now.
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In comment 13866548 BillKo said:
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In comment 13866393 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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At least they got someone who can play. I just don't know what to take from this as regards the draft.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
Norwell's four years younger. You can build around that.
Solder isn't ancient by any stretch, but signing a guy like that suggests to me they are leaning more heavily toward moves that make the team competitive in the short term rather than laying the foundation for the long term. I don't think you sign a guy at 30 if you're working on plan that you expect to return to meaningful games and consistent winning in two years.
Whats the difference between Solder playing solid LT for 4 years and Norwells contract expiring after 5? 1 year means our entire thought process at OL changes?
I just dont get this line of thinking. We didnt sign a 35 year old tackle . We signed a guy who can help us now and 2 years from now.
Exactly.
Plus, you continue to try to develop guys that can possibly step in and succeed.
And remember, OL's generally play longer than other positions in regards to age. Not a rule, but there's some history there.
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In comment 13866548 BillKo said:
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In comment 13866393 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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At least they got someone who can play. I just don't know what to take from this as regards the draft.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
Norwell's four years younger. You can build around that.
Solder isn't ancient by any stretch, but signing a guy like that suggests to me they are leaning more heavily toward moves that make the team competitive in the short term rather than laying the foundation for the long term. I don't think you sign a guy at 30 if you're working on plan that you expect to return to meaningful games and consistent winning in two years.
Whats the difference between Solder playing solid LT for 4 years and Norwells contract expiring after 5? 1 year means our entire thought process at OL changes?
I just dont get this line of thinking. We didnt sign a 35 year old tackle . We signed a guy who can help us now and 2 years from now.
The difference is maximizing the use of the player while he's in his best years. You sign a guy at 30, you don't sit around. There are expectations and rightfully so. A younger player does buy you a bit of time to construct a roster. And if you are actively trying to win now, there's plenty of argument for kicking the QB need can further down the road. If that's their plan, which I have no idea about, I don't think that's wise.
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Sounds like he thinks Solder will be a.... short lease.
LOL!!!!!
okay you made me laugh arc ....
I aim to please!
The last two seasons it's not an exaggeration that Eli often had two seconds to get rid of the ball. When OBJ was playing, Eli looked for him first and in the limited time he had he would throw it to OBJ, even if he was triple covered. Beckham was good enough to catch difficult passes and do something with the ball.
Last year no Beckham, no offense.
Reese embarrassed Eli by forcing him, one of the least mobile quarterbacks, to have to play with the weakest line. His rep has been permanently damaged.
If you have a mobile quarterback, poor pass protection is not as big a disaster. The QB can dodge a blitzer (saw enough of them sidestepping Giants' rushes last year) and when he leaves the pocket he's a threat to pull the ball down and run. Not that you want your QB to run the ball, but the threat of a run, as we have seen many times, causes the secondary to hesitate, not knowing whether to stick with the receiver or come up to stop the possible run.
If this team really intends to bring Eli back next season, there would no hope unless the blocking improved. And there is still a lot of work to do.
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Nothing at all ....
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Another piece or two to upgrade the OL. A 3rd WR, and a HC/OC who can put a good game plan in place along with changing personnel so they don't have the same guys on the field 90% of the time. Oh and some NFL quality play calling would help too.
Thank god you didn't say he is going to eat crow. You said that 4-5 times in the same thread earlier today. We get it. You love Eli.
Top tier implies a top 5 QB. Outside of 2011 (My favorite season in 20 years as a fan due to the brilliance of Eli), Eli never reached that level. From 2008-2012 he was a top ten/fringe top 10 QB. But that was a long time ago.
I agree he deserves the HOF at some point, but you continue to act like he hasn't aged and he is still the same player he was in his prime. He was well below average in 2016 (27th in QBR) and was atrocious last year. It is what it is. He is over the hill. We should be looking to the long term options at QB.
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
You truly are a miserable fuck, aren't you?
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
An all-pro running back.
Disagree with me if you want but, if we add Barkley (I admit he never played 1 down in the NFL) in the draft, think about this line up.
Eli (admittedly getting close to the end. OL has got to be built fast and furiously). If he has protection, I believe he can still do it but, they would have to be in the SB in 2020.
Saquon Barkley - Never played a down in the NFL but, if he lives up to his billing .....?
Engram - looked very good as a rookie.
and last but not least - Odell.
In 2 years that line-up (plus throw in a few more unexpected/hidden gems accumulated along the way) ...that line-up will scare defenses
Targeting Odell Beckham: 63%, 35-7 TD/INT, 111.4 passer rating
Targeting anyone else: 59.5%, 285-209 TD/INT, 79.9 passer rating.
Look, I apologize for coming at you so strongly. You and I have never debated this like I have with Britt and others in your corner. Do you really believe that Eli has not declined as a player? Yes, the front office has dealt him a poor hand in recent years, but he no longer has the ability to elevate players around him.
In spite of the fact that he has always been frustratingly turnover prone, he used to sling the ball all over the field with authority. He also used to have great pocket awareness.
Now he is seeing ghosts and has lost his intermediate/deep ball accuracy. He got sacked in week 2 this year against the Lions without getting touched.
He may still look young, but he plays old. I know it is hard to let go of a franchise legend, but it is in the best interest of this franchise to select a QB for the future, even if they are trying to win in 2018.
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a #1 TE, and now the highest paid Left Tackle in the game.
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Another piece or two to upgrade the OL. A 3rd WR, and a HC/OC who can put a good game plan in place along with changing personnel so they don't have the same guys on the field 90% of the time. Oh and some NFL quality play calling would help too.
anything else? are you sure he doesn't need some more pieces to succeed??
i wouldn't worry too much about this scenario...
Let me know when time helped a 38 year old QB to start playing well...
Age is not what it used to be....
Eli definitely has not trusted the OL. He has gotten gun-shy and needs to overcome his happy feet.
But I totally believe Eli still can deliver the goods. He was the best player on the field in that last playoff game. He can still sling it. I think they lead the league in dropped passes.
Give him protection.....we will start scoring again.
Of course we're all in favor of the Giants improving the line, with the understanding that it costs money - but this was not a savvy move. Solder may not even be a top 10 tackle in the NFL, yet they're giving him $34 mil guaranteed. Huge gamble that can really set the franchise back if it doesn't work out.
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In comment 13866561 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13866548 BillKo said:
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In comment 13866393 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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At least they got someone who can play. I just don't know what to take from this as regards the draft.
Hammer, what is your concern with this signing in regards to the draft?
We can go in any direction.............how would signing Norwell had given you a different vision?
Norwell's four years younger. You can build around that.
Solder isn't ancient by any stretch, but signing a guy like that suggests to me they are leaning more heavily toward moves that make the team competitive in the short term rather than laying the foundation for the long term. I don't think you sign a guy at 30 if you're working on plan that you expect to return to meaningful games and consistent winning in two years.
Whats the difference between Solder playing solid LT for 4 years and Norwells contract expiring after 5? 1 year means our entire thought process at OL changes?
I just dont get this line of thinking. We didnt sign a 35 year old tackle . We signed a guy who can help us now and 2 years from now.
The difference is maximizing the use of the player while he's in his best years. You sign a guy at 30, you don't sit around. There are expectations and rightfully so. A younger player does buy you a bit of time to construct a roster. And if you are actively trying to win now, there's plenty of argument for kicking the QB need can further down the road. If that's their plan, which I have no idea about, I don't think that's wise.
Nor well got paid as the top Guard in the NFL, theres no waiting around for him to be good either. Signing Norwell doesnt mean we have more time to build a roster, the return on his investment starts now.
Solder and Norwells age are irrelevant in this scenario. If we signed either it would be to get better instantly, not in 2 years from now.
Of course we're all in favor of the Giants improving the line, with the understanding that it costs money - but this was not a savvy move. Solder may not even be a top 10 tackle in the NFL, yet they're giving him $34 mil guaranteed. Huge gamble that can really set the franchise back if it doesn't work out.
You're exaggerating plain and simple. I don't know about the "really set the franchise back" bit. This team is still looking to have a good amount of cap room next season, and more big contracts coming off the books with Eli and JPP.
Could it be that you see the glass as half empty?
Nah, Giants fans never do that. ;)
Unreal.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Another piece or two to upgrade the OL. A 3rd WR, and a HC/OC who can put a good game plan in place along with changing personnel so they don't have the same guys on the field 90% of the time. Oh and some NFL quality play calling would help too. [/quote]
So your saying that Eli really needs to have perfect conditions. Considering he has a "generational talent" at WR already, some really good pieces in Engram/Shephard, and we just signed 2 OL and 1 is very good.
Id wager alot of NFL QBs can succeed with that scenario. Good coaching, Good OL, awesome WRs.
In terms of salary he will be making over $2 million more per year than the player closest to him (currently Norwell).
He's a "good" player being paid like he's a future hall of famer. You can call me Mr. glass half empty, but if this continues to be Gettleman's approach to free agency it will not be sustainable.
In terms of salary he will be making over $2 million more per year than the player closest to him (currently Norwell).
He's a "good" player being paid like he's a future hall of famer. You can call me Mr. glass half empty, but if this continues to be Gettleman's approach to free agency it will not be sustainable.
I guess you haven't been paying attention to the contracts for FAs this year.
In terms of salary he will be making over $2 million more per year than the player closest to him (currently Norwell).
He's a "good" player being paid like he's a future hall of famer. You can call me Mr. glass half empty, but if this continues to be Gettleman's approach to free agency it will not be sustainable.
That is only 1) if he plays out his contract and 2) that could very well change with the next big OL signing as this will be model. Years 3 & 4 it costs substantially more to retain Solder than the cap hit for cutting him.
Solder helps us win now and will help the "transition" to the future. His signing simply means that we don't actually *need* to the "Trust the Process" or "let's get Mark Cuban fined" route that some people seem to want to embark upon.
And, since it always seem to come back to Eli, it's odd that the criticism is that he is no longer able to elevate shitty players around him. The solution, logically, would therefore be to not put shitty players around him, but instead put good players around him and remove the elevation burden.
But then, when you attempt to surround him with a stellar #1 WR, a quality #3 WR (Shep is a 3 not a 2), a potentially quality TE, and a quality OL, the plan is met with derision that includes extreme resistance to additionally adding a potentially superlative rushing attack.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Another piece or two to upgrade the OL. A 3rd WR, and a HC/OC who can put a good game plan in place along with changing personnel so they don't have the same guys on the field 90% of the time. Oh and some NFL quality play calling would help too.
So your saying that Eli really needs to have perfect conditions. Considering he has a "generational talent" at WR already, some really good pieces in Engram/Shephard, and we just signed 2 OL and 1 is very good.
Id wager alot of NFL QBs can succeed with that scenario. Good coaching, Good OL, awesome WRs. [/quote]It's freaking bizarre that it's a negative to try to have breadth in good players.
In terms of salary he will be making over $2 million more per year than the player closest to him (currently Norwell).
He's a "good" player being paid like he's a future hall of famer. You can call me Mr. glass half empty, but if this continues to be Gettleman's approach to free agency it will not be sustainable.
Its 1 signing to get the 2nd hardest position to fill in football which has the most significant impact on the #1 most difficult position to fill in football.
Gettelman made 2 other signings yesterday which werent for the highest paid guys at their positions. So what on earth are you worried about?
I honestly don't know what the fuck most of BBI is talking about anymore.
I honestly don't know what the fuck most of BBI is talking about anymore.
That's pretty much how I feel at this point. Look - I love this place. And I respect everyone's posts and opinions. But when you ask for something, you get it, and then you still bitch, that's when you lose me.
The Jaguars were about 5 minutes away from the Super Bowl last year after being quite literally the worst team in the league for multiple years. They have a QB who isn't good at all. But what happened? They changed the coach, the culture, beefed up the lines, and got a legit all pro running back. So unless that didn't happen, the Giants can compete next year. They can compete the year after, and the year after. Will they? I'm not sure. But it's possible.
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In comment 13866716 Jimmy Googs said:
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a #1 TE, and now the highest paid Left Tackle in the game.
My guess is they will add some type of speed/3rd down back for him in FA or the draft to go along with the 2 other running backs they drafted in the last two years.
Let me know what else is need for him to score 30 points in a game sometime this decade...
Another piece or two to upgrade the OL. A 3rd WR, and a HC/OC who can put a good game plan in place along with changing personnel so they don't have the same guys on the field 90% of the time. Oh and some NFL quality play calling would help too.
anything else? are you sure he doesn't need some more pieces to succeed??
Nah, that would be it. I'd say it's more about some competent coaching/game planning than having a lot more pieces on the field. They've addressed the OLine which was a must, and will be getting a healthy OBJ back but still need another WR IMO
I don't think many if any QBs would've been putting up 30 points last year with what Eli had with him, both on the field and on the sidelines.
So was signing an aging tackle a part of that playoff run or did he hinder it? I was wrong about how hed hold up, I fully admit t. We signed a guy 6 years younger but somehow he will hold up the future of the team?
The nfl doesnt operate in 5+ year cycles anymore, its not 1990. You can change on a dime, I dont know how many example of this some of you people need.
The best teams going all over pay in FA. Its part of the deal. Sticker shock every frickin year from a bunch of people .. every one. And in most cases these same fans are overstating their concerns based on a faulty understanding of the players salary or cap.
The only concern is if a player cant play. Some exceptions like the dolphins paying suh super elite qb money when they didnt even have a qb or identy.
Suh needed to go somewhere with better insulation.
Just relax about the money. Maybe this team has more talent than some of you. When you look at the PLAYERS on this front 7 and allow for a little belief that these guys can adapt to the 3-4 this could be a nasty unit.
Oh yeah, we have a LT that can play allowing flowers to try other positions. Nothing else needs to be said. Pay that dude!! And be happy about it!
Nor well got paid as the top Guard in the NFL, theres no waiting around for him to be good either. Signing Norwell doesnt mean we have more time to build a roster, the return on his investment starts now.
Solder and Norwells age are irrelevant in this scenario. If we signed either it would be to get better instantly, not in 2 years from now.
By definition, signing a younger player means you're getting more of his prime years. So yes, you do have more time. It's not irrelevant and we're not going to agree on this. A contract that gives you more of a players best years is better than a contract that gives you less of a player's best years.
Solder helps us win now and will help the "transition" to the future. His signing simply means that we don't actually *need* to the "Trust the Process" or "let's get Mark Cuban fined" route that some people seem to want to embark upon.
And, since it always seem to come back to Eli, it's odd that the criticism is that he is no longer able to elevate shitty players around him. The solution, logically, would therefore be to not put shitty players around him, but instead put good players around him and remove the elevation burden.
But then, when you attempt to surround him with a stellar #1 WR, a quality #3 WR (Shep is a 3 not a 2), a potentially quality TE, and a quality OL, the plan is met with derision that includes extreme resistance to additionally adding a potentially superlative rushing attack.
It's pretty weird. Only thing I can think of is that the Giants aren't doing things the way they think they should be done, therefore it's doomed to fail.
So was signing an aging tackle a part of that playoff run or did he hinder it? I was wrong about how hed hold up, I fully admit t. We signed a guy 6 years younger but somehow he will hold up the future of the team?
The nfl doesnt operate in 5+ year cycles anymore, its not 1990. You can change on a dime, I dont know how many example of this some of you people need.
The league is built for teams to go worst to first, and it happens with more and more frequency every year.
Yes, I am comfortable with that. The last thing we need is the Giants rolling the dice with Eli and being stuck as an 8-8 team with no QB in a couple years. Then they have to sacrifice a ton of assets to move up to get one. I would rather they take one now, even if they believe Eli still has something left.
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Nor well got paid as the top Guard in the NFL, theres no waiting around for him to be good either. Signing Norwell doesnt mean we have more time to build a roster, the return on his investment starts now.
Solder and Norwells age are irrelevant in this scenario. If we signed either it would be to get better instantly, not in 2 years from now.
By definition, signing a younger player means you're getting more of his prime years. So yes, you do have more time. It's not irrelevant and we're not going to agree on this. A contract that gives you more of a players best years is better than a contract that gives you less of a player's best years.
We actually do agree on that, you just werent doing a good job of explaining that or I simply wasnt understanding you. But Solder isnt 35 so I guess Im just not worried about it.
A. Costanzo - Colts in 2015 signed a 4-43M w/14M SB & 35M guaranteed
T. Armstead - NO in 2016 signed 5-65 11M SB and 38m guaranteed - he has also missed 30 of 80 total games
R. Reiff - Min 2017 5-58M 11SB 28M guaranteed
M. Kalil - Car 2017 5-55M 12M SB and 31M guaranteed
It is a brutal position to find players
So was signing an aging tackle a part of that playoff run or did he hinder it? I was wrong about how hed hold up, I fully admit t. We signed a guy 6 years younger but somehow he will hold up the future of the team?
The nfl doesnt operate in 5+ year cycles anymore, its not 1990. You can change on a dime, I dont know how many example of this some of you people need.
Sure, Whitworth absolutely helped them. The criticism of the idea of signing him was not about his ability to help a team in the first year. That was expected. It was about giving a big guarantee and multiple years given his age.And also about having completely legitimate and fair concerns about a guy that age staying healthy even for that first year.
And I'm not sure if I'm being difficult to understand or not, but I thought my opinion was fairly clear. I don't have a problem with Solder. However, if signing Nate Solder to that contract at 30 means the Giants think they're some kind of serious playoffs contender they want to build around Eli Manning expecting him to play well into his age 39 season, and they pass on the chance to draft a QB in favor of trading down or whatever, then I think it's another mistake by management just like sinking all your hopes on the health on a 36 year old lineman would have been for us. That's all.
This. Its both.
It is part of improving a team that has been deficient for several years at specific positions.
Exactly!
Heres the thing theres nothing wrong with believing Eli has a little something left and being open to drafting the qb here in April. Matter of fact thats probably the only way to think. It seems that some need to align themselves with thinking Eli is completely and having to draft a qb at all costs or thinking Eli has 4 years of awesomeness and avoiding the young qb like the plague.
You have to allow for variances or grey area in this thing.
It is part of improving a team that has been deficient for several years at specific positions.
But fats, the Giants should be tearing this thing down. Never mind that tearing this down is impossible and stupid... You know that. Why are we signing good players? We were 3-13 last year!!!!!!
You have to allow for variances or grey area in this thing.
I agree. If they truly believe none of these top 4 QBs in the draft will be franchise QBs then I will have to accept them passing on one. But if they pass on a QB they think will be a franchise QB just for the sake of trying to go all in on Eli the next year or two, then yes, I have a huge problem with it.
Also agree with Ryan. Winning the next couple of years and having a future franchise QB in the pipeline is the best case scenario.
Grasping to 3-13 is just a brutal argument.
I agree. If they truly believe none of these top 4 QBs in the draft will be franchise QBs then I will have to accept them passing on one. But if they pass on a QB they think will be a franchise QB just for the sake of trying to go all in on Eli the next year or two, then yes, I have a huge problem with it.
Also agree with Ryan. Winning the next couple of years and having a future franchise QB in the pipeline is the best case scenario.
I think you have summed up how most of the supporters of Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen feel. I have a hard time believing that the Giants will put all their faith in Eli after allowing the benching etc. I hope I am right because if they pass on a QB solely to try to win once more with Eli then most of the fan base will be livid. Could you imagine the fan reaction and PR nightmare if they pass on a QB like Rosen and he ends up going to the Jets and turns into a franchise QB while Eli continues to regress and they become a struggling 6-10 to 7-9 team?
I honestly don't know what the fuck most of BBI is talking about anymore.
Maybe people want us to draft a QB, then simply keep tanking for a few years. Then keep drafting blue chippers to put us in position to win big in about four years.
You know, something like the Sixers did in the NBA...........
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I agree. If they truly believe none of these top 4 QBs in the draft will be franchise QBs then I will have to accept them passing on one. But if they pass on a QB they think will be a franchise QB just for the sake of trying to go all in on Eli the next year or two, then yes, I have a huge problem with it.
Also agree with Ryan. Winning the next couple of years and having a future franchise QB in the pipeline is the best case scenario.
I think you have summed up how most of the supporters of Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen feel. I have a hard time believing that the Giants will put all their faith in Eli after allowing the benching etc. I hope I am right because if they pass on a QB solely to try to win once more with Eli then most of the fan base will be livid. Could you imagine the fan reaction and PR nightmare if they pass on a QB like Rosen and he ends up going to the Jets and turns into a franchise QB while Eli continues to regress and they become a struggling 6-10 to 7-9 team?
If Josh Rosen turns out to be a bust, Saquon Barkley (or whomever else we could have had at #2) leads a team to a Super Bowl, and Eli doesn't bottom out then the fan base will be livid. The presence of Manning and/or Webb on the roster should not rule out drafting a QB 2nd overall, but if the scouting staff is not confident that any option at #2 is a real upgrade over Manning and/or Webb you don't take one for the sake of taking one
This is exactly what I was saying.
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The presence of Manning and/or Webb on the roster should not rule out drafting a QB 2nd overall, but if the scouting staff is not confident that any option at #2 is a real upgrade over Manning and/or Webb you don't take one for the sake of taking one
This is exactly what I was saying.
Maybe I misconstrued your post, but I thought you were advocating taking a QB at all cost just because one may be the real deal and we don't want him going to the Jets
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Its possible that the Giants feel eli is nearing the end or at the end BUT they dont love the qbs in this draft. Then what? You cant force the issue and take a qb just because.
You have to allow for variances or grey area in this thing.
I agree. If they truly believe none of these top 4 QBs in the draft will be franchise QBs then I will have to accept them passing on one. But if they pass on a QB they think will be a franchise QB just for the sake of trying to go all in on Eli the next year or two, then yes, I have a huge problem with it.
Also agree with Ryan. Winning the next couple of years and having a future franchise QB in the pipeline is the best case scenario.
Agreed 100%
I am ... I am happier. I never thought he was done. I just am not sure how much longer he will play. I might be wrong but, the pounding guys take in the NFL season after season - the body has to break down at a faster than normal rate? I am not a Dr. but, it seems like 30 is that "magical" threshold where players start(?) the drop-off?
I am glad he is 2 years younger than I originally thought. Who knows - maybe we just signed this generation's Jackie Slater? Fingers crossed.
Maybe I misconstrued your post, but I thought you were advocating taking a QB at all cost just because one may be the real deal and we don't want him going to the Jets
Sorry I should have been clear. None of the pro-QB supporters just want the Giants to take a QB just for the sake of taking one. If they conclude that none of these QB's are potential franchise QB's then I fully support a trade down or Barkley. I am a big fan of Rosen, Darnold, and Mayfield and I one of them to be the pick because I believe in them not because they play QB.
Solder helps us win now and will help the "transition" to the future. His signing simply means that we don't actually *need* to the "Trust the Process" or "let's get Mark Cuban fined" route that some people seem to want to embark upon.
And, since it always seem to come back to Eli, it's odd that the criticism is that he is no longer able to elevate shitty players around him. The solution, logically, would therefore be to not put shitty players around him, but instead put good players around him and remove the elevation burden.
But then, when you attempt to surround him with a stellar #1 WR, a quality #3 WR (Shep is a 3 not a 2), a potentially quality TE, and a quality OL, the plan is met with derision that includes extreme resistance to additionally adding a potentially superlative rushing attack.
Admittingly ... I do worry to much so, take it with a grain of salt - disservice to "The entire planet" has crossed my mind. But, what can you do? We have to win now .... and GM Gettleman seems to be signing guys like he believes that also.
Let future generations (Giant fans) figure out how to save the planet. They can do it - they will be a good bunch.
I still don't think I've seen anything although the contract numbers did get out there.
I was going to post this long diatribe here since my friend Eric seems to have that black cloud hovering over his head. The reality about whats going on with this team is that we are ALL guessing. Every poster, every beat writer, etc.
Eric could be right, this could be more "business as usual" for Mara, load up behind Eli don't worry about the future. It could be the opposite, DG is going peace by peace and trying to clean up the mess. The could pick Barkley, they could pick a QB, they could trade down. And you can view ALL these moves for now or for the future. It depends on the lens you use.
There's an old saying: "The past is a good indicator for the future". I look at Gettleman's past and see what contributions he made here. What he did in Carolina. What he has said here since taking over: "run the ball, stop the run, get after the QB".
What it seems like he is doing, is, after assessing his roster, his locker room, he is trying to 1. change the culture by clearing out what he can, and 2. fix the LB and OL units, both of which were unacceptable BEFORE injuries last year.
I heard bitching about Herzlich getting guaranteed money. He was resigned for the locker room, he's a high character guy, who can help on ST.
He signed Stewart who 's can help at RB but he will contribute just as much in the locker room and meeting room.
It seems like he will try to clear out under performers, over paid and too old players if he can. There are three notable exceptions: the 2 Eli's and JPP.
As Eric and others have pointed out, their contracts make trading them or cutting them virtually impossible.
Next year will be a different story. So in the short run, DG has said "clean slate" which may help Apple, and said they are moving forward with Manning (if for no other reason they have no choice.) From an HR perspective, considering the contracts, this was the right way to handle both. JPP is Bettcher's problem.
In conclusion, I don't think we will really know what's going on maybe not until next off season.
I don't think it's so much the age, it's the # of seasons played, wear and tear.
Solder has only played 7, mostly injury free seasons aside from the torn biceps in 2015. He should be fine.
Of course we're all in favor of the Giants improving the line, with the understanding that it costs money - but this was not a savvy move. Solder may not even be a top 10 tackle in the NFL, yet they're giving him $34 mil guaranteed. Huge gamble that can really set the franchise back if it doesn't work out.
A.G.R.E.E.D.
You have to allow for variances or grey area in this thing.
I think you're exactly right. You can't force it and take a QB just because.
I could see them really loving one of the QBs much more than any other and what if Cleveland feels the same way and takes that guy with the 1st pick? No way do I want them settling on another QB just because.
I'd want them to move onto the next highest guy they love. It could be Barkley or even Nelson. Doesn't matter to me as long as they're convinced he's their guy and will be a can't miss type player.
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plain and simple. Gettleman let's Pugh out the door, whiffs on Norwell, and is left with making Nate Solder the highest paid tackle in the league to get him to come on board.
Of course we're all in favor of the Giants improving the line, with the understanding that it costs money - but this was not a savvy move. Solder may not even be a top 10 tackle in the NFL, yet they're giving him $34 mil guaranteed. Huge gamble that can really set the franchise back if it doesn't work out.
A.G.R.E.E.D.
Color. me. shocked. And why add a period between every letter?
How is this a huge gamble?? Fucks sake dude you have bitched about the ol for years... I give up.
Building great OL is the #1 thing to do in advance of changing to a younger new QB.
This is exactly the right time to go crazy on OL and my guess we ain't done yet.
Anyone see dak Prescott's rookie season?
If he was a top 3 LT hed cost double.
One. More. Time... you have to overpay in fa. Want to improve the team ? Wanna eliminate the urge or need to start an ol sucks thread every other day on BBI? You overpay a solid LT in FA. Its how this shit works. Want to avoid fa like the plague? You cant. Period. Its the nature of the beast.
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plain and simple. Gettleman let's Pugh out the door, whiffs on Norwell, and is left with making Nate Solder the highest paid tackle in the league to get him to come on board.
Of course we're all in favor of the Giants improving the line, with the understanding that it costs money - but this was not a savvy move. Solder may not even be a top 10 tackle in the NFL, yet they're giving him $34 mil guaranteed. Huge gamble that can really set the franchise back if it doesn't work out.
A.G.R.E.E.D.
This is not a "huge gamble"
How about offering up an alternative? How would YOU go about fixing this line if you're against signing the best LT on the market?
Draft picks are finite. We have several holes and can't spend all of them on the offensive line.
We can get out of this deal in 2 years without terrible cap implications (8M dead cap and would save us 9M), so the idea that this can "set the franchise back" is a pretty ridiculous exaggeration.
An Albert Haynesworth deal can set a franchise back, because they get one year out of a guy and eat a ton of money at a time when the cap was really tight.
Drafting a bust at QB can set a franchise back because it wastes time on the bust and then causes a cycle where you are relying on middling vets to get by.
Having a successful coach leave can set a franchise back, especially if the decision to replace him is poor and you stick with the new guy awhile. See Jeff Fisher
Having volatile ownership can set a franchise back. Hello Raiders and Redskins.
A lot of things impact teams for several years. Very few of them have to do with paying market value for a player, especially in today's cap era.
An Albert Haynesworth deal can set a franchise back, because they get one year out of a guy and eat a ton of money at a time when the cap was really tight.
Drafting a bust at QB can set a franchise back because it wastes time on the bust and then causes a cycle where you are relying on middling vets to get by.
Having a successful coach leave can set a franchise back, especially if the decision to replace him is poor and you stick with the new guy awhile. See Jeff Fisher
Having volatile ownership can set a franchise back. Hello Raiders and Redskins.
A lot of things impact teams for several years. Very few of them have to do with paying market value for a player, especially in today's cap era.
+1
Look at it this way, if the Giants had more cap space they'd probably have signed Norwell, still have DRC, and possibly Mathieu by now.
but they don't.
So under the circumstances Gettleman has proceeded admirably, but it's not bitching, being negative or complaining to acknowledge the impact of a contract like Solder's.
If current trends continue, the cap is going to be close to 200M in 2020. The 8M in dead money that would result in cutting ties w/ Solder at that point in time isn't going to set the Giants back at all.
The reports that have come out said we offered the same as Jax for Norwell. We signed Solder. We signed a LB. We traded for Ogletree. We signed a RB. We signed a guard.
We basically haven't been constricted by the cap. We were constricted in Norwell choosing another team.
Nothing we can do there.
It's not like we would have offered him 20M per year if we had the space to do it.
hitdog basically said that Norwell simply preferred JAX and that the offers were close enough where it was a matter of him choosing. Maybe if we had outbid them by a lot, he would have come here instead - but I don't think we wanted to pay a guard much more than 15M per.
it happens, but it's rare. Maybe it happened here or maybe the offers were identical.
if offers were exactly the same then it is what it is, no animosity, the Jags are a playoff team, with some good skill players, and a good defense.
but I'd think if you're going to overpay someone, I'd overpay the 26 years old top rated at his position player vs the 30 year old middle of the pack player. Both are improvements, and I'm not complaining about signing Solder though some feeble minded people will call it that. Just giving my view.
and don't get hung up on "overpay" some people say it's the market rate, and if that is the term that makes you happy then use that, but then realize the word overpay ceases to exist in your vocabulary because everything then becomes market rate since that's what it costs you to get something.
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one backup QB wins the SB, after of course Wentz who was on his way to league MVP got them there, and everyone acts as if that is the norm. We don't need to draft a QB Foles won the SB so that means Webb is a lock to win one as he was a 3rd round pick too!!
32 QBs have won 52 Super Bowls.
26 Super Bowls were won by QBs drafted early in round one.
4 were won by QBs drafted late in round one
22 were won by QBs drafted after the first round, or who were undrafted.
Now do it again with the QBs, not the number of SBs. Because it's a bit of a statistical issue when you put the number of QBs who have won a SB in your header, and then use the number of SBs as your proof. It's what someone would do if they were trying to use selective data to prove a point that the raw data doesn't really support.
After you're done with that, then add in the context of how many QBs were drafted in each of those blocks of the draft during that time frame. There are so many more QBs drafted outside the top 10 of the draft than within the top 10 (by an order of magnitude), that you're not even close to comparing similar sample sizes, and therefore, not remotely proving the likelihood of finding a SB-winning QB outside the top 10 of the draft.
I remember compiling this last time you kept repeating the same tired post on multiple threads, but I remember it being something like 10% of all QBs drafted in the top 10 of the draft went on to win a SB, whereas less than half of 1% of all QBs who were drafted outside the top 10 went on to win one, and that was even giving you Roethlisberger, who was drafted 11th.
You love trotting this out like you've discovered some sort of proof for optimal QB acquisition, when the truth is, you're either really bad at statistics, or just good enough to manipulate them, which makes you full of crap.