I admit I don't watch much college ball. I see a QB with bad completion percentage when I look on paper but I have never seen him play . How is this guy looked at a possible #1 pick? How high is his ceiling? Who does he compare To?
Once again I don't watch enough college ball to have an opinion. I see alot on this board love him and I don't understand Why? What has he done in the college game to warrent this love? And it's not only BBI I notice other fans love him also.
I noticed other Qbs like Rosen or Mayfield put up better numbers in a better conference but what makes Allen exite you more then them?
You get him working with good QB coaches (Shurmur and Shula) and he could improve greatly.
He is very boom or bust.
If the Giants did draft him then I would be in full support of the decision because it would mean that Shurmur and co. believe that would mean that they feel his accuracy can be cured through a change in mechanics. I would still rather draft Rosen, Darnold, or Mayfield but I won't "throw the remote" if Allen is the pick at 2.
Could do wonders with a full time QB coach to guide him
He's like Carson Wentz as a runner.
Accuracy issues scare me. He does have decent touch on his throws, just not consistently accurate. His WR's did drop a lot of passes and his team stunk. His value is based mostly on his upside.
I've heard comparisons to Big Ben and Stafford, but to me seems more like a Blake Bortles.
I'm not saying he'll make a good or even average NFL QB, but it's obvious why he's an interesting prospect.
He is more a mix of Rodgers and Roethlisberger. He can escape pressure and he is very difficult to bring down.
Accuracy issues scare me. He does have decent touch on his throws, just not consistently accurate. His WR's did drop a lot of passes and his team stunk. His value is based mostly on his upside.
I've heard comparisons to Big Ben and Stafford, but to me seems more like a Blake Bortles.
Darnold isn't a plug and play QB either.
I heard an interview on the move the sticks podcast with the Nike strength and conditioning coach that is working with him and Darnold (and has worked with the top two QBs taken in each of the last I think 10 drafts). He said no QB he has ever worked with has had an arm like Allen has. Expects him to legitimately throw the ball 90 yards at his pro-day.
And Eli has often been criticized for his completion percentage.
% of completion is overrated.
A team that can afford to have him sit and learn behind a seasoned vet for a year or two are probably the best possible landing spots for him vs. a team that needs him to play sooner. That is why many like him for the Giants because Eli will still be here and they could have him learn from Eli, Shurmur and Shula and then transition when Eli is done.
A team that can afford to have him sit and learn behind a seasoned vet for a year or two are probably the best possible landing spots for him vs. a team that needs him to play sooner. That is why many like him for the Giants because Eli will still be here and they could have him learn from Eli, Shurmur and Shula and then transition when Eli is done.
Good idea. Do you think he last to #12? Seems to me that if you like Allen he's too much of a reach at #2. How about 12?
Extremely physically gifted I agree. But I'd probably put Cam Newton's physical profile over Allen. Still, Allen is very impressive.
Best arm since Elway IMO. Fantastically strong and mobile. Shakes off tacklers and is a real threat to run.
Substantial accuracy issues as reflected by low completion percentage. Didn't play well against big competition.
I am so tired of this tired argument. 2016, he had 2 all conference players at OL, 1 at RB and 1 at WR, and his completion % still sucked. The lengths some will go to defend Allen are ludicrous, as if no other QB ever suffered from a poor supporting cast.
That's a good point about Allen's comfort under center. I don't think that's as crucial as it once was, but it's one less thing to tutor.
Most here have nailed it about Allen - he just has this unique, God given combination of athlete and throwing ability. Big guy like Roeth but more nimble and quick. I haven't seen arm talent like his since Marino at Pitt. His biggest asset his throwing on the run - that arm strength really shines there. And that is going to be quite a luxury in the pros.
I don't get bent out of shape about accuracy as others. Favre was 52% out of SoMiss. And ended his career at 62%. Montana was 52% at ND and finished 63%. Hell, Elway was like 55% at Stanford and was even lower in the pros. Turnover are more critical - I'll take the incomplete pass over the INT.
Finally, like an QB prospect, much of how Allen does will be based on team, coaching, and opportunity.
I'm a huge fan, but like the more refined Rosen a bit better as prospect who should have a shorter learning curve...
Unfortunately, Allen is going to have to buck a lot of negative statistics to succeed, especially his low completion percentage. It is one of the few stats that does seem to determine success or a lack thereof at the next level.
With a year or two of coaching, this kid is going to be in great shape. The progress he is making from his regular season, to bowl game, to the Senior Bowl, to the combine has been impressive. We'll see what his pro day feedback is, but I would expect it continues.
Physically he is ideal - big, cannon arm, very good mobility.
His throwing mechanics (upper body) are great (per Pat Kirwan,Jim Miller, Mike Mayock, Adam Caplan). His footwork, specifically throwing to his left needs work. Per Gil Brandt and Pat Kirwan, footwork for a QB is one of the more easily fixable issues.
This is what a future franchise QB looks like. Grab him now, as there will be nothing better coming down the road AND they will avoid "QB hell."
Unfortunately, Allen is going to have to buck a lot of negative statistics to succeed, especially his low completion percentage. It is one of the few stats that does seem to determine success or a lack thereof at the next level.
I don't see these as good comparisons as neither of those George nor Cutler ever demonstrated that they were coachable. Allen already demonstrated his humility and coachability during Senior Bowl and time with Jordan Palmer since the end of the season.
True re: Cutler & George. But there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Allen is in the jerk-off category that those two were...
But here's the thing. Since completion % has dramatically risen in the past 20 years, he's going to have to buck the trend that QB's with a collegiate completion % under 58% haven't succeeded. You have to go back to the early 90's and prior to find examples.
I'd take that risk possibly. At #1 or #2 or even in the top 10 - no way.
All those prospects you listed are nowhere near the athlete Allen is. He could be a TE prospect.
Attitude wasn't the only thing holding those guys back. Neither of them developed their game enough to be dominant.
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Big, throws ball hard, throws ball far. Jamarcus Russell, Paxton Lynch and Brock Osweiler made into a new, super, Robo QB. Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the women....good.
All those prospects you listed are nowhere near the athlete Allen is. He could be a TE prospect.
First and foremost he wins. He plays for Wyoming who has never been a power house. They don't recruit great talent and it takes special players to bring a team like this up. Before Josh Allen started as a SO they were 2-10. He started as SO and took a bad team to 8-6 including a bowl game loss against BYU. As a JR he went 8-3 including a bowl game win against Central Michigan. The two games he missed with injuries they lost by 6 and 3 in games they would have won with him. In fact losing by 3 to one of the worst teams in all of College football last year San Jose State shows you the most of how good he is. So lets take a closer look at San Jose State who won 20 to 17 with a no Josh Allen Wyoming.
San Jose State went 1-11 in all other games. Their only win was against Cal Poly and they only won by 21 points. Cal Poly in case you are wondering is like a slightly better HS team. JC teams could beat them. SJS lost by huge amounts every week. The closest they came to winning is losing by 11 points to a horrible 3-9 Hawaii team. They lost by 20, 56, 38, 51, 28, 17, 11, 21, 45, 45, 28... average margin of losses is 32.7 points per game! They were horrible last year. They beat a no Josh Allen Wyoming by 3 points! Think about that for a second. How bad is Wyoming's other talent to lose one player and lose to probably the worst team in all of College football last year.
So talent... Clearly his WRs don't catch, run routes, or have speed of UCLA, USC, or Oklahoma. His OL isn't close to as good as those teams. RBs make shorter distances for 3rd down conversions and all 3 of those teams are loaded with 4 star or 5 star talent. In Wyoming Josh Allen was the talent.
Even watching one of his worst game, the Iowa game. On the road against a very good defensive team I will link the video below. Here is his incompletions.
1. At the 14 second mark he is flushed from the pocket and tries to throw a dart off his back foot which the Iowa defender makes a nice diving play.
2. Next incompletion at 26 seconds is a roll out that doesn't work... defender right there and he throws it away to save a sack.
3. You then watch the extreme pressure he is under making plays until 1:07 when he is under huge pressure and throws it away again.
4. At 1:28 again under huge pressure he basically throws it away again even though the announcer says missed him. No sir he didn't miss a double covered WR he launched it out of bounds.
1:45 you see him look like Big Ben and even though no one ever gets open and he goes down without a throw it is incredible how hard he fights.
5. 2:22 again under huge pressure from high draft pick Josey Jewell who I would like and shovel passes it out of bounds for another throw away.
6. 2:59 now down 14-3 he tries for the endzone and CJ Johnson makes a good play jumping over the WR to knock it away.
7. Now at 3:15 he makes a bad throw. Swing pass to high and all on him.
8. at 3:28 it looks to me like the WR doesn't finish his come back and should still make that catch. He has to make that catch really.
9. 3:36 he throws to hard to high and behind his WR and that is all on him.
10. at 3:50 a Defender comes free and he off his back foot whips a pass to high. To me he forced a throw while under pressure and the OL is at fault, but he threw it and it was high.
11. At 4 min mark you see more of what people like about him. Huge rush again and steps up and throws a perfect pass to a wide open WR for a Touchdow... oh wait another incompletion on a dropped pass.
12. 4:21 on a roll out tries to throw off his back foot and misses the WR on the sideline. This was on him with bad footwork.
13. 4:51 under huge pressure again throws the ball away to avoid the sack
14. 4:59 a man is coming free and he throws off his back foot, rushing the throw out and the Defender makes a great read and jumps the route.
15. 5:25 he throws it high on him
16. 5:52 he throws it high on him
17. 5:59 he is under pressure and gets hit as he throws it and the as the announcer says he has protection ... Josey jumps the route to break up the pass. You can see him hoping around because the protection hasn't been there all day he isn't planting his feet.
18. 6:21 is not a good angle but looks like the RB should have caught it to me.
19. 6:29 its a jail break on a screen pass and he throws a defender read the screen to pick it off.
5 of his incompletions are throwaways. 3 should have been caught including a wide open TD. 3 were just great plays by the Defenders if you ask me. You watch this though and you see the amount of pressure he is under the whole game and it is amazing. Every play at least one person is coming free at him and he is either escaping or getting hit. As the game progresses you see him being more jumpy, throwing off his back foot more and I believe this leads to his high throws you start to see in the second half. In between his incompletions you also see some very good accurate passes. You expect, when you see a 56% completion, for the ball to be all over the place on most throws and that isn't the case. He does get high and he does make some bad throw mostly off his back foot. This is coachable though. His feet and throwing off his back foot was the cause of most of his bad passes that went high all under huge pressure.
The talent is there for an extremely good QB and I think he is more accurate than his stats show.
Saying that at pick #2 it is too risky for me and I would pass. However if we did move back to pick 5 or later picking up a nice haul of picks I would love Josh Allen as he could be Big Ben. I would just want more assurances for my bet.
Josh Allen against Iowa - ( New Window )
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Other than that, its not impressive. Seems like more of a project than a plug and play from day one. Some of the throws he made in college do wow you though.
Accuracy issues scare me. He does have decent touch on his throws, just not consistently accurate. His WR's did drop a lot of passes and his team stunk. His value is based mostly on his upside.
I've heard comparisons to Big Ben and Stafford, but to me seems more like a Blake Bortles.
Darnold isn't a plug and play QB either.
Agreed. Darnold I'm on the fence with. He has the raw tools, but he made so many bad throws.
And Eli has often been criticized for his completion percentage.
% of completion is overrated.
I don't completely disagree on the completion %, but I do think fans get caught up in the mobility of QB's. Especially, QB's in which mobility is their strong suit. Give me football IQ and accuracy. I want the QB that can drive 80 yards down field throwing from the pocket.
We've had a great run with Eli for 15 years, I'd hate to fall back into the post Simms pre Eli wasteland the Giants found themselves in for a decade.
We've had a great run with Eli for 15 years, I'd hate to fall back into the post Simms pre Eli wasteland the Giants found themselves in for a decade.
And Gettleman will look very foolish.
He did not elevate the Wyoming program during his time there. He was not a recruiting magnet for other talent as so eloquently stated on this thread. His team stunk and he didn't attract other kids that might want to play with this magnificent talent at Wyoming. Seriously?
He has the measurables you want to see but he just hasn't really produced at any level to the point where he was a hot commodity. now he's going to transform into a major talent at the highest level there is in his field?
Count me as not convinced.
He did not elevate the Wyoming program during his time there. He was not a recruiting magnet for other talent as so eloquently stated on this thread. His team stunk and he didn't attract other kids that might want to play with this magnificent talent at Wyoming. Seriously?
He has the measurables you want to see but he just hasn't really produced at any level to the point where he was a hot commodity. now he's going to transform into a major talent at the highest level there is in his field?
Count me as not convinced.
Why can’t he be a late bloomer?
He did not elevate the Wyoming program during his time there. He was not a recruiting magnet for other talent as so eloquently stated on this thread. His team stunk and he didn't attract other kids that might want to play with this magnificent talent at Wyoming. Seriously?
He has the measurables you want to see but he just hasn't really produced at any level to the point where he was a hot commodity. now he's going to transform into a major talent at the highest level there is in his field?
Count me as not convinced.
How did the other Miami do with Ben Roethlisberger? Or Delaware with Flacco? (Not that we'd want a Flacco, just curious).
Ben R took a team that had been at .500 prior to his arrival and his first two years and led them to an unbeaten record in the MAC. A #10 AP rank and a bowl win vs. Louisville.
They both greatly elevated their team.
Allen just doesn't have a great track record to work off of. He performed well at theSenior Bowl. Ok, that's a positive. I wouldn't want to project the next 5 years of Giants football on his continued progress on him because he's never been 'wildly successful' at any prior level.
He could be a late bloomer. I hope so for his sake, I'm not rooting against him. I really just wouldn't want the Giants to be the team to bet on his future and I base that on his past.