for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Some more cap talk

madeinstars : 3/16/2018 6:37 am
So yesterday I wrote a post about our current cap situation. With the updates about the contracts of Martin and Omameh, I thought I could also post an update about our current situation.

Omameh and Martin:
Great news is I overestimated their 2018 cap hit. I actually really like both contracts and think they are very good value at 2.5 and 3.8 million against the cap respectively.

Remaining cap space:
Bad news. As of right now overthecap.com has us over the cap by 25k they could be off by a bit, but not by much so as of right now, the Giants have no money left to spend.

Creating cap space:
I laid out some possible moves yesterday. The obvious ones are cutting Marshall, Harris, Jerry and Ray-Ray Armstrong resulting in 9 million in cap savings.
Now 9 million is hardly enough to sign anybody, considering we would need between 7 and 8 million dollars for rookie contracts, so we need some more space...

Restructuring contracts:
Like I pointed out yesterday, the most obvious move here is to turn Ogletree's 7 million roster bonus into a siging bonus, prorated over the remaining length of his contract. This would create 5,2 million in cap space.
Next up I converted part of Snacks' base salary into a signing bonus. If we restructure 6 million of his 7,75 million base salary and prorate it we save another 4 million dollars against the cap this year.

Now what?
For those keeping track, in this scenario we now have a total of 18 million dollars available. Let's subtract 8 million for rookies to leave us with an even 10 million left to spend.

So what about Honey Badger?
I'd say it's still very hard for us to bring in Tyrann Mathieu.
Let's assume it would take at least an average of 11 million a year (as has been reported by some) and a 4 year contract to bring him in with half of the money guaranteed. so 4/44/22.
Signing bonus: 8 million + fully guaranteed 1st year base: 6 million + mostly guaranteed 2nd year base: 10 million + partly guaranteed 3rd year base: 10 million + not guaranteed 4th year base: 10 million = 44 million with 24 guaranteed.
To me this seems like a fair contract, that is backloaded without totally hamstringing the Giants in the future (yes the future is still also very important).
The cap hit in this case would still be (2 million of the prorated siging bonus + 6 million base) 8 million, leaving us with 2 million left to spend.

Now remember in this scenario we still don't have a CB3 (unless you think Honey Badger would mostly play the slot), our only receivers would be OBj and Sterling Shepard and we have no depth whatsoever at LB and D-line. Those are not things we can fix with 2 million dolaars and the draft.

Where there's a will, there's a way!
This is true. If the Giants are desperate they could make some more moves, like restructuring Janoris Jenkins, Oliver Vernon, JPP or Manning. It's important to remember though, that restructuring is just pushing money forward. Restructuring those contracts would mean two things:

1) Those players will be harder/impossible to cut in later years, because of the increase in dead money on their deals.

2) Whether we like it or not, we also have to deal with our 2019 cap hit. In the scenario I posted we would hardly have any space left next year and we would have to sign Landon Collins and OBj to big deals still.

Sure, we could create space in 2019 too by cutting Manning or JPP, but we be accumulating a hell of a lot of dead money in the process and no matter how you look at it dead cap puts you at a competitive disadvantage, because you are simply able to spend less total money.

Some notes:
- Obviously I'm not an NFL cap expert. I'm sure there's other ways to manipulate the cap and cap hits, but I'm fairly confident that even Kevin Abrams is not gonna be able to create millions more somehow.
- Depth is important and depth still costs money against the cap. For example: as we saw the last few years, going into the season with only two viable pass rushers is cutting it a little thin.
- Post june 1 cuts: Designating a cut as post June 1 is a usefull tool to create some more space, but remember that the extra money will not become available untill June 1. Say we designate Jerry and Harris as post june 1 cuts, that would create another 1,6 million in cap space, but we would not be able to use that money for FA's untill June 1.

That's about it for now, I think. Watch me be completely wrong when Gettleman signs Crabtree and Mathieu to great deals today.
madeinstars...  
M.S. : 3/16/2018 6:50 am : link

...WOW!

Thanks so much for all this valuable cap information.

Very helpful/insightful!
Nice work.  
section125 : 3/16/2018 7:25 am : link
Thanks for looking into this.
Great contribution!  
Jay in Toronto : 3/16/2018 7:28 am : link
Thanks.

There is one other way to create  
Keith : 3/16/2018 7:32 am : link
10M in space...
Robert thomas not listed on OTC or sportrac  
Chip : 3/16/2018 7:41 am : link
sporttrac has us 125,000 under. I think we will here moves today. I don't think Jerry or Armstrong get cut. This will be about restructures.
Thanks  
Joeguido : 3/16/2018 7:44 am : link
great info
This is AWESOME!!!  
Neckbone1333 : 3/16/2018 8:12 am : link
Thanks!
Thank you  
JonC : 3/16/2018 8:13 am : link
Obviously, there will be more moves coming shortly to create at least $10M for draft picks and reserve. Question for me is do they pull the trigger on Mathieu or not, otherwise it's depth signings from this point.
RE: Thank you  
RetroJint : 3/16/2018 8:21 am : link
In comment 13868706 JonC said:
Quote:
Obviously, there will be more moves coming shortly to create at least $10M for draft picks and reserve. Question for me is do they pull the trigger on Mathieu or not, otherwise it's depth signings from this point.

Don’t the draft choices get shielded in a separate pool?
Nice job  
YANKEE28 : 3/16/2018 8:23 am : link
and good analysis.

Don't forget that veteran Center John Sullivan is coming in for a visit at the Giants request.

So it sounds like the Giants plan includes more OL dollars.
Retro  
JonC : 3/16/2018 8:29 am : link
Accounting was never a strong suit of mine, I just looked at spotrac and it's unclear to me.
The Giants are doing well considering  
George from PA : 3/16/2018 8:35 am : link
where they started and where many others were.

Dead Money  
jvm52106 : 3/16/2018 8:37 am : link
gets used too much though. If I can have cap space then dead money doesn't really matter. Yes, ideally you do not wnat $ tied to a player no longer on the team but, if getting rid of that player allows me to sign other players then the dead money is nothing.

Cap Space is all that matters. If I pay a guy $7.5 mil to sit on the bench or be a locker room cancer then does it really matter if he counts 1.5 million against the cap while not being on the team- freeing up 6 mil to sign other players?

I see the overall point but the DEAD money is used too much when cap space is really what we are talking. It is different if you are looking at a 20 mill player, who when cut still counts 6 mil against the cap and is then replaced by another 20 mil player who counts another 6 mil against the cap same year.. But, we are talking that. So if we gain cap space by getting rid of guy and can sign 1 or 2 guys for less money, then the dead money is worth it.
RE: Dead Money  
madeinstars : 3/16/2018 8:51 am : link
In comment 13868745 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
gets used too much though. If I can have cap space then dead money doesn't really matter. Yes, ideally you do not wnat $ tied to a player no longer on the team but, if getting rid of that player allows me to sign other players then the dead money is nothing.

Cap Space is all that matters. If I pay a guy $7.5 mil to sit on the bench or be a locker room cancer then does it really matter if he counts 1.5 million against the cap while not being on the team- freeing up 6 mil to sign other players?

I see the overall point but the DEAD money is used too much when cap space is really what we are talking. It is different if you are looking at a 20 mill player, who when cut still counts 6 mil against the cap and is then replaced by another 20 mil player who counts another 6 mil against the cap same year.. But, we are talking that. So if we gain cap space by getting rid of guy and can sign 1 or 2 guys for less money, then the dead money is worth it.


Obviously if there is no other way to go you take the dead money, but it's still horrible cap management and bad accounting, because you are limiting your options.
Great stuff, thanks for posting...  
Capt. Don : 3/16/2018 8:59 am : link
If we clear space for a player, I hope it is Sullivan over Mathieu.

Im just wary of a guy who is undersized, has had serious injuries and plays as physically as he does.

Reminds me of Bob Sanders.
Just a tremendous post  
FranknWeezer : 3/16/2018 9:42 am : link
Thanks for all the work that went into it. Great stuff!
RE: Great stuff, thanks for posting...  
NYG007 : 3/16/2018 9:46 am : link
In comment 13868774 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
If we clear space for a player, I hope it is Sullivan over Mathieu.

Im just wary of a guy who is undersized, has had serious injuries and plays as physically as he does.

Reminds me of Bob Sanders.


Not worried at all. Plays with pure passion for the game, and played the most snaps of anyone in the secondary in the NFL last year. Thats a year after a bad injury as well.
The guy I'm still hoping to sign...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/16/2018 9:54 am : link
is Cockrell. It's got to be him or someone like him - relatively cheap yet effective.

I really feel like some of the cap savings from cutting DRC should go to replacing his spot on the roster.

Also, I know nobody is talking about this and I doubt it happens, but I'm thinking we should consider cutting Flowers. It would save us $4.5MM. I'm not confident we're going to get "Hog-Molly" level play out of him, so why spend the money? Maybe he's got potential, but I'm ready to pass on from him. Between he and Jerry we could save $7MM. I doubt either earns their salaries this year.
Eli  
Archer : 3/16/2018 10:03 am : link
It is time for Eli to restructure his contract to create CAP space.

He should give the Giants a friendly deal like what Brady has done.

Eli’s present CAP number is $22,200,000
The CAP is comprised of the following
Salary $10,500,000
Roster Bonus $5,000,000
Work out Bonus $500,000
Prorated Bonus $6,200,000

If the Giants extend Eli’s contract by (2) years, extend his bonuses, and convert his salary to a signing bonus then;

CAP hit this year
Prorated bonus will extend over an additional (2) years $6,200,000 * 2 = $12,400,000 / 4 = $3,100,000
Salary converted to a signing bonus $10,500,000 / 4 = $2,625000
WO bonus + Roster bonus extended $5,500,000 / 3 = $1,833,000
Eli's CAP could be reduced to +/- $7,558,334.
OR a savings of $14,641,667
RE: The guy I'm still hoping to sign...  
Diver_Down : 3/16/2018 10:03 am : link
In comment 13868895 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
is Cockrell. It's got to be him or someone like him - relatively cheap yet effective.

I really feel like some of the cap savings from cutting DRC should go to replacing his spot on the roster.

Also, I know nobody is talking about this and I doubt it happens, but I'm thinking we should consider cutting Flowers. It would save us $4.5MM. I'm not confident we're going to get "Hog-Molly" level play out of him, so why spend the money? Maybe he's got potential, but I'm ready to pass on from him. Between he and Jerry we could save $7MM. I doubt either earns their salaries this year.


Flowers was a 1st round pick. All 1st round picks have their contract guaranteed. There is no savings. The only savings that could occur with Flowers is if he is traded. The other team would pay his salary but we would still eat the pro-rated signing bonus.

RE: RE: The guy I'm still hoping to sign...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/16/2018 10:05 am : link
In comment 13868916 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13868895 Dan in the Springs said:


Quote:


is Cockrell. It's got to be him or someone like him - relatively cheap yet effective.

I really feel like some of the cap savings from cutting DRC should go to replacing his spot on the roster.

Also, I know nobody is talking about this and I doubt it happens, but I'm thinking we should consider cutting Flowers. It would save us $4.5MM. I'm not confident we're going to get "Hog-Molly" level play out of him, so why spend the money? Maybe he's got potential, but I'm ready to pass on from him. Between he and Jerry we could save $7MM. I doubt either earns their salaries this year.



Flowers was a 1st round pick. All 1st round picks have their contract guaranteed. There is no savings. The only savings that could occur with Flowers is if he is traded. The other team would pay his salary but we would still eat the pro-rated signing bonus.


Well that explains it. Thanks. Glad to know I still have a lot to learn! :-)

Seriously, I suppose it's a good thing that I haven't ever explored the cap savings of cutting a 1st rounder while on his rookie contract.
Not  
Doomster : 3/16/2018 10:10 am : link
There is one other way to create
Keith : 7:32 am : link : reply
10M in space...


after the 18th.....
RE: RE: RE: The guy I'm still hoping to sign...  
Diver_Down : 3/16/2018 10:18 am : link
In comment 13868924 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
In comment 13868916 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 13868895 Dan in the Springs said:


Quote:


is Cockrell. It's got to be him or someone like him - relatively cheap yet effective.

I really feel like some of the cap savings from cutting DRC should go to replacing his spot on the roster.

Also, I know nobody is talking about this and I doubt it happens, but I'm thinking we should consider cutting Flowers. It would save us $4.5MM. I'm not confident we're going to get "Hog-Molly" level play out of him, so why spend the money? Maybe he's got potential, but I'm ready to pass on from him. Between he and Jerry we could save $7MM. I doubt either earns their salaries this year.



Flowers was a 1st round pick. All 1st round picks have their contract guaranteed. There is no savings. The only savings that could occur with Flowers is if he is traded. The other team would pay his salary but we would still eat the pro-rated signing bonus.




Well that explains it. Thanks. Glad to know I still have a lot to learn! :-)

Seriously, I suppose it's a good thing that I haven't ever explored the cap savings of cutting a 1st rounder while on his rookie contract.


The only way to not guarantee a 1st rounder's contract is if they are suspended with conduct detrimental to the team. Every player's contract (except those that negotiate the clause out) has disciplinary clauses. Specifically, the detrimental conduct provides for the club to void the guarantees in a player's contract and recoup the pro-rated signing bonus remaining. It is at the discretion of each club. With Abrams suspending Apple with the detrimental conduct designation, it set-up the process necessary for the club to pursue the voiding of his guarantees. Keep in mind that it doesn't void the contract. The player still is obligated to the contract, but they lose the security of the guaranteed money. It also allows the team to release/trade the player with minimal cap consequences. All of this is just for educational purposes as the Giants have apparently not pursued the voiding of Apple's guarantees and have given him a "clean-slate".
Great reading this stuff  
GeorgeAdams33 : 3/16/2018 2:17 pm : link
Thank you
Great stuff - lets start cutting guys so we can get the Honey Badger  
PatersonPlank : 3/16/2018 2:40 pm : link
in here
Back to the Corner