Golic and others critical of Flowers possible move to RT

In comment 13869061 Greg from LI said:

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For a guy that was a massive waste of money and played like dogshit, he sure has an opinion about everything.

But you and I have done absolutely nothing yet it's ok for us to venture opinions? Get a grip, man.

In comment 13869071 Keith said:

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and at the risk of getting mocked, can someone explain why Flowers wouldn't work at guard. My thoughts is that his weakness is in space. He's a big strong guy who can move guys when he gets his hands on them, so I figured he'd be a good candidate at guard. Can someone with actual OL knowledge explain why that wouldn't be the case?

He struggles with speed off the edge. Almost all of his holding penalties happen when the rusher starts getting around him because his last resort is to put them in a headlock and take them to the ground.

I personally think he would be a candidate to play guard because it would minimize the amount of lateral movement and he'd no longer have to deal with speed rushers. He could instead focus on anchoring and using his strength inside.

His hand technique sucks and has to get better for it to work, but I think he'd be better off trying to engage bullrushers or guys trying to strafe past him than he has been at stopping guys from gaining the edge on him and angling towards Eli.

He does have quick feet in small spaces. It seems to me like his problems become exacerbated when he has to move laterally.

I don't think we're going to be doing a ton of pulling in this offense, either.

I don't know - I think it could work but some people swear it can't. I'd at least try it in camp or pre. If it doesn't work, so be it. He's probably gone after this season no matter what.

great job getting the new gig!!

Greg - how much does it pay???

but the guy has basically played every snap except for 1 game since he was drafted. He's out there battling which says more about what Schwartz ever did for us

They’re generating competition, something they completely failed to do in the past.

And the wait until the move him to guard crowd chimes in comment makes no sense. His point is that moving Flowers to Right won’t fix his technique or the speed of rushers he will face. That point is has no merit when considering a move to guard and the team never mentioned guard. It’s a random comment.

In comment 13868980 robbieballs2003 said:

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In comment 13868972 BigBlueDownTheShore said: Quote: could be more natural to him, which would certainly help fundamentals/mechanics. The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles. It could be but why? He has played LT for, what, the last 5+ years? I doubt RT is going to feel more natural to him. However, that is probably a good thing. Being an OL should be a very uncomfortable thing. When you start getting comfortable you start getting complacent.

Well lets put it this way. Your right handed, but you force yourself to learn how to write left handed for 5 years. Do you think you would have a problem writing right handed if you decided to do so? (This is just an analogy).

In comment 13869061 Greg from LI said:

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For a guy that was a massive waste of money and played like dogshit, he sure has an opinion about everything.

Agree, was just thinking the same thing about Schwartz.

And it’s not like DG and PS don’t know anything about football. Maybe Flowers pans out for the season on the right, maybe he doesn’t. What we do know is that DG just spent a lot of money on Flowers replacement and he didn’t sign Richburg and hasn’t signed Pugh and he kicked Hart to curb. Pretty sure DG knows that the O line needs to be fixed. I suppose our first hint would have been when DG said, “we have to fix the offensive line”. Give Flowers a chance to compete for a spot.

The vast majority of RT in the NFL are failed NFL LT's or college LT's that had no shot at LT in the NFL

Who cares what they think? The signing of Geoff Schwartz single handedly set this franchise back a few years he was so terrible.

Anyway, isn't it pretty obvious Flowers will compete for the RT spot once Solder was signed? Flowers is not a LT but if we're being fair, he had his moments over there. It wasn't all bad. Put him at RT, where he was drafted to play and see what happens. Shurmur and Gettleman doing what should be done here.

The only thing we know is that Solder is now our OLT. Flowers has an opportunity to compete for the ORT position, maybe inside, but he has hardly been anointed the starter.

The guy can be a real asshole at times for no good reason.

Should start over Solder? Doubtful. There's nothing to complain about otherwise.

LT and RT is Eli will be able to see the DL bearing down on him when Flowers does the matador block.

POSSIBLE!!!

Let's see where the chips fall shall we? I doubt OL on the roster right now will be the same as Week 1.

Let's see what happens huh?

In comment 13869002 giants#1 said:

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In comment 13868957 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: 1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside. 2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.

Two good points. Another point is move back while shift to the right is more natural to a right handed person that sifting to the left.

and I agree with Golic. Horrible footwork and use of his hands. He is a strong guy who has no finesse game.

Saying this has "worked before" means nothing because a different player being successful means nothing.

Moving a piece of dog shit from your left pocket to your right does not make it anything other than dog shit.

In comment 13869002 giants#1 said:

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In comment 13868957 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: In comment 13868945 Giantfan in skinland said: Quote: between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL? I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous. Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others. 1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside. 2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.

That makes a huge impact. Flowers is also right handed, it is more natural. If he get a little better and the move helps a little more, plus Eli can see the pressure. Run a little more than pass, maybe we have something. I would love to salvage the 10 pick in the draft.

Flowers was not working out at LT so a change there had to be made. Given the fact that he does have some ability, is under contract, and was the 9th pick 3 years ago you have to give him a shot at the RT/RG spot and if he can't cut it there you let him play out his rookie contract and release him. The Giants HAD to upgrade the LT spot so wtf is this somehow bad to try him at RT?

You read what these tools write and it's as if they are thinking about this from a Madden type mindset in which you turn the Salary Cap off mode.

pre draft... only Reese thought he could play LT
He didnt have the feet or technique to play LT at pro Level
we'll see if he can do it at RT

PS sick of Geoff Scwhartz at this point, pfffttt

In comment 13869234 montanagiant said:

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Flowers was not working out at LT so a change there had to be made. Given the fact that he does have some ability, is under contract, and was the 9th pick 3 years ago you have to give him a shot at the RT/RG spot and if he can't cut it there you let him play out his rookie contract and release him. The Giants HAD to upgrade the LT spot so wtf is this somehow bad to try him at RT? You read what these tools write and it's as if they are thinking about this from a Madden type mindset in which you turn the Salary Cap off mode.

Should say " If he can't cut it there you bench him and let him play out his rookie contract

Because he's been the Left Tackle is really dumb IMO and Geoff Schwartz must have forgot he 'sucked ass' at tackle and was switched to guard where he just 'sucked' and wouldn't even suit up to play if he had a minor bruise or a scratch on him. Flowers if anything is tough as nails and would have started off at right tackle if Beatty didn't get hurt in the weight room a few weeks after we drafted Flowers.

And that won’t change at RT. Try him at G iot just cut him.

We need a better plan for the RT spot.

it's a better move to keep him at LT? Lol, no thanks.

DG is doing the correct thing by making him *compete* for a spot on the right side. If he can't beat out Wheeler, some journeyman FA, or a rookie, then adios!

In comment 13869242 Paulie Walnuts said:

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pre draft... only Reese thought he could play LT He didnt have the feet or technique to play LT at pro Level we'll see if he can do it at RT PS sick of Geoff Scwhartz at this point, pfffttt

Ugh Flowers was slated to actually play at RT when he was first drafted and was more then likely going to develop until he could play LT. Beatty getting injured killed that plan and he was thrust into LT because we had no one else that could possibly play there. In 20/20 hindsight they should have tried Pugh there first and let Beatty develop at RT for a while.

but Reese went overboard on Beatty too..
We would have drafted Longs kid instead of Flowers

In comment 13869106 UberAlias said:

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They’re generating competition, something they completely failed to do in the past. And the wait until the move him to guard crowd chimes in comment makes no sense. His point is that moving Flowers to Right won’t fix his technique or the speed of rushers he will face. That point is has no merit when considering a move to guard and the team never mentioned guard. It’s a random comment.

+1,000. I don't know why the sports media doesn't understand how the new regime isn't simply going to hand starting jobs to players based on where they are drafted. If he wins the RT spot through competition, great.

Personally I think Flowers spends the season on the bench. Where he belongs. If he proves me wrong, fantastic.

that Reese brought to the team as a former scout, he really was absolutely horrible at finding OL. All of the players he either drafted or signed did not work out. Literally all of them.

In comment 13869296 KWALL2 said:

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And that won’t change at RT. Try him at G iot just cut him. We need a better plan for the RT spot.

I agree with this. If he wins the competition for RT or RG, then great. If not, see ya.

It isn't about Flowers, it's about Solder. Is he the best LT on our roster? Yes! That's it. We have our LT. What's to complain about that?

What to do with Flowers given the above? Well you let him compete at RT and go from there. I just don't understand what there is to debate.

Of course they'll try him at RT. Why? Because we don't have a decent RT at the moment. Why not see if he can do it. If he can't you can always try him inside.


This whole debate is a waste of time.

he was overall improved -- he was not as big a liability as is the popular perception -- and if in fact -- as Joey has said -- he is more comfortable on the Right side he could actually improve there

Face it -- we had dog poop on the Rt side the last two seasons except for a few games when Pugh played there. Flowers is definitely better than Bobby Hart ever was or could be. So the pure math says he's an improvement on the right side since that's who/what (Hart) he's basically replacing, and we all believe that Pugh can't hold up there for a full season.

In comment 13869071 Keith said:

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and at the risk of getting mocked, can someone explain why Flowers wouldn't work at guard. My thoughts is that his weakness is in space. He's a big strong guy who can move guys when he gets his hands on them, so I figured he'd be a good candidate at guard. Can someone with actual OL knowledge explain why that wouldn't be the case?

One of the things that people fail to include in their assessment is the scheme. Yes, he struggles in space, does not have a good first punch and his stance is so bad that it tells the D if its run or pass. Those are the major flaws I see with him at either tackle position. Based on scheme, if he is going to be zone blocking(fire off to an "area" an maul whoever is there, I think he would do well but if he is asked to pull or reach block, he doesn't seem to have the feet for that. So IMO it really depends...

To your initial statement. Please DO 'pretend to have an opinion' . it's not up there with drunk driving or hittng on your sister in law.

and score easy points, he has a contract they can't do anything with, and there's nothing wrong with having him compete for a role at another position.

What kind of non-story is this?

In comment 13869473 idiotsavant said:

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To your initial statement. Please DO 'pretend to have an opinion' . it's not up there with drunk driving or hittng on your sister in law.

Ha, if I could even remotely pull off faking I know what I'm talking about with blocking schemes or OL responsibilities I would pretend to have an opinion.

like most of the site.

The best I can do is tell whether or not the OL is playing well or not. But like I said, I actually felt (with the eye test) that Flowers looked better last year by a lot than in his first two seasons.

That's about the extent of my OL analytics abilities.

Gettleman told him at the same time that "the five best will play." So if Flowers thinks he had to work hard last offseason, time to think again.

In comment 13869390 Paulie Walnuts said:

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but Reese went overboard on Beatty too.. We would have drafted Longs kid instead of Flowers

Long's kid? Kyle Long? If so, wrong draft.. you mean instead of Pugh we could have had Long's kid who went the pick after to Chicago but that was two draft's before the Flowers draft.

Guy fails at LT, moves to RT or G and does fine.

WTF are Schwartz and Golic yapping about? They suck.

Sure, Flowers might fail but this is a logical move.

Sitton has played left guard the last few years and in his Miami press conference he was asked if he would be comfortable switching to the right side and said no. Presses for a reason? He said it is like trying to wipe your butt with the other hand.
Flowers did line up at ROT as a frosh at Miami, but had issues working in-line, as he lacked that first step burst when having to push the pile inside. He is right-hand dominant, so that can help, but for the sake of the kid, you'd hope they just cut him loose.
He struggled to grasp blocking techniques at a position he played three years in college & several now in the pros. I just don't think the thought process is there for him to grasp new blocking schemes.
One sleeper right tackle that could be had on the cheap is LaAdrian Waddle-Pats. Here is the NFL's view on him;
Height and extreme length are prototypical for the tackle position, and his foot quickness when in balance makes it very difficult for even the best sack-masters to get the corner. Thick arms that portend his upper-body strength, and also owns enough flexibility and girth in his lower half to anchor against bull rushes. Occasionally asked to go out to linebackers, shows agility to fit onto the block and uses his long arms to shield them from the play – though he can be out-quicked by second-level defenders and doesn’t always sustain. His strength and quickness helps him as a zone run blocker, as well.

He said

"Giants will try him at right tackle, which he'll fail, then he'll be gone."

He has never pulled punches with Flowers. Seems like he has always thought he flat out sucked, and may seem like he has a small ax to grind with him, but is probably not wrong about him.

He said there is zero chance Flowers can play guard because of his high and poor hand placement that will get swatted away by those interior DT's.

He took a boat load of the Giants money and rarely saw the field on gameday. If I want to know what clothes to wear when walking the sidelines or a recommendation for an exercise bike, then I'll look for his opinion. As for moving Flowers to the right side of the line, they should have done that day one. Its not unusual in the NFL to take a raw talented OT and start them off on the right side or on the inside while they develop their skills and learn how how to block on the big stage. Flowers was forced to play LT (the most difficult position on the OL) because of injuries to Will B.; but they should have moved him out of LT the following season

In comment 13869833 GiantTuff1 said:

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He said "Giants will try him at right tackle, which he'll fail, then he'll be gone." He has never pulled punches with Flowers. Seems like he has always thought he flat out sucked, and may seem like he has a small ax to grind with him, but is probably not wrong about him. He said there is zero chance Flowers can play guard because of his high and poor hand placement that will get swatted away by those interior DT's.

Well, I must admit, if anyone knows shitty OL play like the back of his hand, it's Geoff Schwartz.

I look at it this way...at least Eli will see them coming.

In comment 13869074 Dave said:

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when he was drafted he was slated to be the RT, he was moved to LT when beatty got hurt I know he hasn't looked good, and I know his fundamentals are bad, but he was not drafted to be the plug and play LT that he was forced to be

In comment 13869940 VinegarPeppers said:

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I look at it this way...at least Eli will see them coming. In comment 13869074 Dave said: Quote: when he was drafted he was slated to be the RT, he was moved to LT when beatty got hurt I know he hasn't looked good, and I know his fundamentals are bad, but he was not drafted to be the plug and play LT that he was forced to be

gimme the Gabbagul, the Provolone, and the Vinegar Peppers... Floors cannot play in space

That is what Solder was brought here to do. Flowers, I've bad-mouthed him plenty is plenty improved; not is not the time to throw the baby out with the bath water. He will do just fine on the running side - the right side.

This what I'd like to see on opening day ...

Solder - Nelson - Price - Fluker (if he doesn't bolt), else Hernandez and Flowers.

different position and he will be playing next to better parts. keepin hope alive

Keep wondering how he would have been as a defensive tackle.

... deciding that what I say has real meaning means that you don't pay enough attention to those that are smart enough to know better.
The offensive line what consists of the best five offensive lineman. A few of them may be best suited to a certain spot but for the most part you're either good or you're not.

They say.

Clearly I need to pay far more attention to what autocorrect decides I post.
My apologies...

In comment 13869936 Beer Man said:

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He took a boat load of the Giants money and rarely saw the field on gameday. If I want to know what clothes to wear when walking the sidelines or a recommendation for an exercise bike, then I'll look for his opinion. As for moving Flowers to the right side of the line, they should have done that day one. Its not unusual in the NFL to take a raw talented OT and start them off on the right side or on the inside while they develop their skills and learn how how to block on the big stage. Flowers was forced to play LT (the most difficult position on the OL) because of injuries to Will B.; but they should have moved him out of LT the following season

This. Even if Flowers fails at RT he's done more for the Giants than Schwartz ever did.

And his struggles at Tackle?

Why is this move with Flowers different?