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Golic and others critical of Flowers possible move to RT

pjcas18 : 3/16/2018 10:08 am
And Geoff Schwartz jumps in with his opinion.

I am not an OL x and o's guy, like some of you or someone like B in ALB is. so I won't pretend to have an opinion on this, but some of you seem to think he was going to be a guard and Golic seems to think you are laughable.

Quote:

Mike Golic Jr
& #8207;Verified account @MGolicJR57
4h4 hours ago

Mike Golic Jr Retweeted ESPN New York

switching sides does not fix issues with fundamentals. please repeat this over and over again until it sinks in.


Quote:

ESPN New York
& #8207;Verified account @ESPNNewYork

Giants announce plan to try Ereck Flowers at right tackle http://dlvr.it/QLF6vY #NYGiants


Quote:

Geoff Schwartz
& #8207;Verified account @geoffschwartz
4h4 hours ago

no Mike, it's easy to switch positions. Duh
1 reply 3 retweets 10 likes


Quote:

Mike Golic Jr
& #8207;Verified account @MGolicJR57
4h4 hours ago

Just waiting for the “move him to guard” crowd to show up now..


And PFF had this to add:

Quote:

Sam Monson
& #8207;Verified account @PFF_Sam
2h2 hours ago

So Ereck Flowers moves to the right side because he can't handle LT.
All he has to face that side in 2018 is:
DeMarcus Lawrence x2
Ryan Kerrigan X2
Brandon Graham X2
Whitney Mercilus
Vic Beasley
Cam Jordan.

This can only go well.
H/t @PFF_Ben


Right,  
Brown Recluse : 3/16/2018 10:09 am : link
except for the examples of instances where its actually worked?

Soooo...how can you dispute something that has been proven at times to be successful.
So all these guys are suggesting that there isn't a talent gap  
Giantfan in skinland : 3/16/2018 10:10 am : link
between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL?

I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.
He is only  
Doomster : 3/16/2018 10:11 am : link
a one year rental....
Pretty sure  
GiantsRage2007 : 3/16/2018 10:11 am : link
Gettleman and Shurmer said he was moving to compete for a spot at RT not that the job was his. In other words: still gotta earn a spot/not a done deal he's the starting RT.
Where were these guys...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/16/2018 10:13 am : link
when Flowers was handed the LT job with no competition?

The RT job hasn't been handed to him. Shurmur told him that the best five guys would start, which means he's going to have to compete. Why mock what is an obvious move here - his only chance to start now is to beat out everyone else at RT. Not gonna happen over Solder.

Of course, he's going to back up Solder but if he wants to start he's going to compete at RT. That's all that's been said.
RE: So all these guys are suggesting that there isn't a talent gap  
robbieballs2003 : 3/16/2018 10:14 am : link
In comment 13868945 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL?

I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.


Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others.
What I take Golic  
pjcas18 : 3/16/2018 10:15 am : link
to be saying is that Flowers hasn't lived up to expectations at LT not due to a talent, size, athleticism or other gap, but due to a fundamentals gap and moving him from LT to RT isn't going to fix his fundamentals and make him successful there.

And then I think he's saying tackles (in a vacuum) don't make good guards just because they failed at tackle.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I thought Flowers was pretty quietly much better last year than the first two years of his career.

To Flowers discredit, one observation I have had, and again it's not an X and O's thing, is that the more a line plays together the better they become as a unit. Has Flowers had a consistent LG in his 3 years?
If anything is going to be good for Flowers it isn't really the  
robbieballs2003 : 3/16/2018 10:18 am : link
position change but rather the pressure that is being applied by Gettleman amd Shurmur. Pressure can crumble some situations and create diamonds in others. Hes is feeling the heat now with one year left to prove himself. He knows his career is basically on the line. Time to sink or swim.
Playing on the right side  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 3/16/2018 10:18 am : link
could be more natural to him, which would certainly help fundamentals/mechanics.

The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.
I admit..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/16/2018 10:19 am : link
that I chuckled at the "wait until the move him to Guard group chimes in".

Sort of defines BBI. The way they think each OL guy is malleable is humorous. I know B in ALB used to poke fun at that too.
That's Golic JR  
Heisenberg : 3/16/2018 10:20 am : link
just to be clear.
golic is not wrong  
GiantsFan84 : 3/16/2018 10:20 am : link
the only thing that may get flowers to play better is being in a contract year.
RE: Playing on the right side  
robbieballs2003 : 3/16/2018 10:20 am : link
In comment 13868972 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
could be more natural to him, which would certainly help fundamentals/mechanics.

The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.


It could be but why? He has played LT for, what, the last 5+ years? I doubt RT is going to feel more natural to him. However, that is probably a good thing. Being an OL should be a very uncomfortable thing. When you start getting comfortable you start getting complacent.
RE: Playing on the right side  
BillKo : 3/16/2018 10:20 am : link
In comment 13868972 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
could be more natural to him, which would certainly help fundamentals/mechanics.

The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.


Good points.

Plus, let's remember, that was where he was going to be pegged that first year until Beatty was hurt.

It was right tackle for him all along.........
If they think youre laughable theyre laughable  
sharpshooter66 : 3/16/2018 10:21 am : link
It is absolutley possible that he fails at RT and at Guard but he was a first round pick to play offenxive line and the team is sort of limited on options. Either they cut him, throw him on the bench to collect free money like Schwarts (coincidentally) or they try him in other positions to see if he can grow into one of those positions before making that decision. What would you suggest?
I think Flowers has..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/16/2018 10:23 am : link
to be tried at RT. He's young and he was actually improved last year. Would almost by default be better than Hart, even though we need to shoot higher.

Playing him at Guard seems like a terrible fit.
So these guys would prefer the Giants do what with Flowers?  
Tom in NY : 3/16/2018 10:23 am : link
Cut him today?

He very well may not be able to play no the right side, or even at Guard, but the Giants have to try him out there - with a new coaching staff to teach him - to see if there is any reclamation to the former #9 pick in the draft.

Who knows? He may get cut the first week of training camp, but giving up on him today accomplishes what exactly?

Schwartz and Golic seem somewhat petty for the continuous piling on of the guy at this point.
He isn't guaranteed a spot anywhere.  
Diver_Down : 3/16/2018 10:25 am : link
DG and Shurmur has told Ereck that he will compete for the starting job. He is not being given a 1 year tryout. He'll have this spring/summer to show that he can handle the switch. If not, he'll serve as the back-up swing tackle.
RE: RE: So all these guys are suggesting that there isn't a talent gap  
giants#1 : 3/16/2018 10:25 am : link
In comment 13868957 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 13868945 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL?

I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.



Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others.


1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside.

2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.
Flowers was not that bad last year  
jeff57 : 3/16/2018 10:26 am : link
He had a couple of bad games, but overall was better than the prior couple of years. I think he'll be okay on the right side.
But was anyone  
Pete in MD : 3/16/2018 10:27 am : link
saying that moving him to RT or OG would solve all of his problems? I don't recall hearing that from Shurmur or Gettleman. The team just paid a ton of money for their franchise LT. Obviously, they don't expect him to compete for his job so it was mentioned that the former LT, who is still on the team, will get a shot on the other side. That's all anyone really said.
RE: So these guys would prefer the Giants do what with Flowers?  
ZogZerg : 3/16/2018 10:27 am : link
In comment 13868994 Tom in NY said:
Quote:
Cut him today?

He very well may not be able to play no the right side, or even at Guard, but the Giants have to try him out there - with a new coaching staff to teach him - to see if there is any reclamation to the former #9 pick in the draft.

Who knows? He may get cut the first week of training camp, but giving up on him today accomplishes what exactly?

Schwartz and Golic seem somewhat petty for the continuous piling on of the guy at this point.


^
Exactly!!
those who can do  
Ron Johnson : 3/16/2018 10:30 am : link
those who can't are named Golic
At this point, Flowers is a lot like Fluker. Fluker couldn’t cut it at  
Ivan15 : 3/16/2018 10:30 am : link
RT so he was moved to RG. Fluker’s flaws remained but his one skill was better utilized and his flaws were less of a liability.

Giants aren’t sure yet what Flowers best skill really is. If they don’t find a RT to compete with Wheeler, they can look at Flowers but likely RG will be is best, only real chance.

Maybe Flowers needs to play center. He already has the forward lean over the toes down pat.
They aren't handing him RT  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 3/16/2018 10:30 am : link
If he sucks at it he likely won't be starting.

What exactly do they expect to happen? He shouldn't switch to RT...or to Guard. Are they supposed to cut him? He is dirt cheap, what exactly is wrong witg bringing him back to camp?

...and Schwartz wasn't good enough to be critiquing anything.
RE: RE: RE: So all these guys are suggesting that there isn't a talent gap  
robbieballs2003 : 3/16/2018 10:32 am : link
In comment 13869002 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13868957 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 13868945 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL?

I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.



Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others.



1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside.

2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.


My point was with all these teams in the shotgun there really is no blind side anymore. The blind side is primarily from going under center and taking your drops so your back is completely toward the left side. So, yeah, if you run a traditional NFL offense then the left side will have more value but I also said that the disparity between the two sides is minimal now. I never said they were equal. And sometimes when your right tackle is so bad it creates worse habits. When you see your RT get beat naturally you want to move to buy yourself more time and it throws off all of your mechanics as a QB because you are trying to buy that extra split second to get the ball off. Sometimes ignorance is bliss when you just have to feel the pressure from the left side so you go through your reads and steps naturally and just let the ball out. My point... putting an inferior player at RT still can kill an offense.
I trust  
Joey in VA : 3/16/2018 10:32 am : link
Dave and Pat Shurmur more than a never will be who got a scholarship because of Daddy's name. Give Flowers a shot, see what happens. Let the presumptive geniuses who don't understand basic physiology shoo this one away. He gets a shot, that's it, so fucking what Golic and Schwartz. God I hate Schwartz, what a soft do nothing.
RE: So these guys would prefer the Giants do what with Flowers?  
pjcas18 : 3/16/2018 10:32 am : link
In comment 13868994 Tom in NY said:
Quote:
Cut him today?

He very well may not be able to play no the right side, or even at Guard, but the Giants have to try him out there - with a new coaching staff to teach him - to see if there is any reclamation to the former #9 pick in the draft.

Who knows? He may get cut the first week of training camp, but giving up on him today accomplishes what exactly?

Schwartz and Golic seem somewhat petty for the continuous piling on of the guy at this point.


I think they're piling on the concept more than the player.

Just my take. I don't think either was being personal (from the tweets I read).

I don't think they're saying to cut him, just maybe have him as a backup until it makes sense to cut him.

but they didn't offer any insight into that, the Giants created this situation by signing a LT (one who is without a doubt an upgrade) and having a LT on the roster already.

These people (Golic (jr) and Schwartz) were simply commenting on the ESPN report about the Giants moving Flowers to RT.
This is my view too, and I've been saying it on threads for weeks now  
PatersonPlank : 3/16/2018 10:33 am : link
He will have the same troubles at RT he had at LT, the two positions are no longer that different. Many teams now have solid rushers on both sides (like OVV and JPP). IMO, Guard is the place to try with him.
The funny thing is  
ryanmkeane : 3/16/2018 10:33 am : link
all they said was they would try him out at RT. They aren't handing him the position and nobody is saying RT will be better for him than LT - they are just moving him because he sucks at LT.

The knee jerk reactions to some of these twitter warriors like Schwartz is really fucking pathetic. Hey Geoff - you stole money from the Giants
Robbie...  
BillKo : 3/16/2018 10:33 am : link
...I think we are going to see Eli under center much, much more than before.

Just a hunch.

PS is going to realize Eli is best in play-action.
Just consider the Guard competition.  
Diver_Down : 3/16/2018 10:34 am : link
If you consider a head to head competition of Flowers/Greco; Flowers/Jerry; Flowers/Halapio - All of those players have experience at guard. It would be a challenge for Flowers to demonstrate competency better than a player that has been doing it their entire career. Now, Jerry/Greco/Halapio might not be great shakes, but they are entering any competition with an advantage over Flowers. I wouldn't presume that Flowers can demonstrate an advantage over the others.

He'll either beat out the competition at RT or he'll serve as the back-up swing tackle. With his contract guaranteed, there is no benefit to cutting him. The only savings is if the Giants can trade him where another team pays his salary. Even still, we have to eat the pro-rated signing bonus.

They didn't promise him the starting job  
BillT : 3/16/2018 10:35 am : link
Bunch of overreactions. We know he can't play the left side. If he can't play the right he'll sit on the bench or be released. Geeesh.
It’s all Beatty’s fault. If he doesn’t get hurt, Flowers starts at RT  
Ivan15 : 3/16/2018 10:35 am : link
For 2 years until Beatty is done, then a failed experiment at LT before moving to guard.
How is it an overreaction for them to provide their opinion  
pjcas18 : 3/16/2018 10:36 am : link
the feasibility of moving an OL to another OL spot?

The real overreaction seems to me is the people who bristle at the opinion or criticism.

You won't know until you try  
AcesUp : 3/16/2018 10:37 am : link
Considering we invested a Top 10 draft pick in the guy, it's probably worth one. Worst case scenario, Eli can actually see the guy he's blocking instead of worrying about the rusher coming from behind him. Seems like a win to me.
Players  
PaulN : 3/16/2018 10:37 am : link
Have played guard and tackle and done, well, all the experts that say it is laughable for him to be given a shot at guard are the same ones saying to move him to right tackle, where that is a joke, he will never make it at tackle, he already proved that point, but keep it rolling. Unless switching sides from where you are comfortable is going to improve him. That makes real sense.
RE: Robbie...  
Pep22 : 3/16/2018 10:39 am : link
In comment 13869039 BillKo said:
Quote:
...I think we are going to see Eli under center much, much more than before.

Just a hunch.

PS is going to realize Eli is best in play-action.


I am much more interested in what we see (and how soon we can see it) post Eli. If Rosen, we will thankfully get to turn the page immediately. If Darnold or Allen, we will probably have to wait a year as both are raw. If Webb, it is unclear.
I am really getting sick of Geoff Schwartz  
Greg from LI : 3/16/2018 10:41 am : link
For a guy that was a massive waste of money and played like dogshit, he sure has an opinion about everything.
RE: I think Flowers has..  
jvm52106 : 3/16/2018 10:42 am : link
In comment 13868992 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
to be tried at RT. He's young and he was actually improved last year. Would almost by default be better than Hart, even though we need to shoot higher.

Playing him at Guard seems like a terrible fit.


The one thing I have seen here by a few people is using the examples of Eric Moore and William Roberts as Tackles that moved to Guard. BUT, those two players were completely different than Flowers. Roberts was very fluid at tackle but lacked the tackle instincts and seemed to fluid (in back pedal he moved so light on his feet that guys just pushed him back and he tended to just reach and place his hands but without power. His movement skills are what allowed a move to guard.

Flowers is taller and has size but his feet are awful and only outdone by his even worse hand placement. As a guard all the negatives he has right now would be magnified.
RE: Robbie...  
robbieballs2003 : 3/16/2018 10:42 am : link
In comment 13869039 BillKo said:
Quote:
...I think we are going to see Eli under center much, much more than before.

Just a hunch.

PS is going to realize Eli is best in play-action.


Absolutely. I was talking about the offense we have run since Flowers has been here which was primarily as a shotgun offense.

Also, I just want to say that I agree with both Golic and the Giants. Golic just made a statement that moving sides doesn't fix bad fundamentals. That is 100% true. Basically, what he is saying is that if he is the same player then he will fail there too. If he fixes his fundamentals then he has a chance. Did he ever say the Giants were wrong? Did he say the Giants should have done something different? If he did then I didn't see it.

From the Giants perspectives, I have been saying this since year 1/2. We need competition. Allowing a rookie to come in and not compete but just be given a job is not the best way to go about things. Yes, things changed with Beatty but that was the first year. What about every year after that? We had opportunities (not great ones but opportunities) to bring in vet OL who had LT experienceand success. We just kept letting Flowers have the job wothout earning it. That could work but when it doesn't you have no contingency plan. And any good manager or leader is going to have a plan A, B,and C. Didn't Reese do this with Pettigout and Diehl? He released Pettigout and we were all concerned that we had no LT. Then Diehl rose to the occasion... luckily. This time around we weren't so lucky.
Let’s see first  
Rflairr : 3/16/2018 10:42 am : link
No way I give up on him before trying him at another position. And again question the coaching he was getting here
The only thing this switch does  
Keith : 3/16/2018 10:42 am : link
is allow Eli to see who is about to lay him out.
ex-lineman really want to be heard  
UConn4523 : 3/16/2018 10:43 am : link
and that's fine. Maybe it works maybe it doesn't. But their stance seems like their minds are already made up. Glad they are sticking to the booth/reporting.
I am not an OL x's and o's guy either  
Keith : 3/16/2018 10:44 am : link
and at the risk of getting mocked, can someone explain why Flowers wouldn't work at guard. My thoughts is that his weakness is in space. He's a big strong guy who can move guys when he gets his hands on them, so I figured he'd be a good candidate at guard. Can someone with actual OL knowledge explain why that wouldn't be the case?
EF has ben playing out of position  
Dave : 3/16/2018 10:45 am : link
when he was drafted he was slated to be the RT, he was moved to LT when beatty got hurt

I know he hasn't looked good, and I know his fundamentals are bad, but he was not drafted to be the plug and play LT that he was forced to be
Schwartz  
ryanmkeane : 3/16/2018 10:46 am : link
is absolutely brutal
and, obviously LT is harder to play than RT  
Dave : 3/16/2018 10:46 am : link
just look at the difference in salaries

sheesh
Shurmur made it clear the best five OLmen will start. If he's a backup  
Blue21 : 3/16/2018 10:47 am : link
so be it. A pretty reasonable one $ at least. And better than most backups. My guess he's our starting RT to begin the season. Switching LT to RT has worked before. He started there his rookie year as I recall until Beatty got hurt.
Billy Ard said Flowers should play guard  
Greg from LI : 3/16/2018 10:47 am : link
And I'd trust his opinion a helluva lot more than Geoff fuckin' Schwartz's since Ard was a solid player and a champion while all Schwartz ever did as a Giant was steal money from them.
Flowers  
Archer : 3/16/2018 10:48 am : link
There is a lot of distain for Flowers and some is not warranted

Flowers played much better the second half of last year.
It seemed that he was finally getting his technique down.
He was not lunging as much, he was sliding better, and he was bending rather than leaning.
He was giving up far fewer pressures and sacks.

If Flowers were a 3rd round pick most would be giving him a chance.

I think that he needed a change in coaching and a position change. It will reduce the pressure that he has had to deal with since starting as a rookie.
RE: I am really getting sick of Geoff Schwartz  
bluepepper : 3/16/2018 10:49 am : link
In comment 13869061 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
For a guy that was a massive waste of money and played like dogshit, he sure has an opinion about everything.

No problem with a guy tossing out opinions but I get the distinct impression that it's personal with Flowers - he really hates this guy's guts. Probably some locker room stuff from 2015 plus gossip from former teammates. If you're going to be a professional commentator or aspire to be one you have to be able to put personal feelings aside.
We can't pay for every OL position in FA  
Rudy5757 : 3/16/2018 10:49 am : link
DG has done well improving the line.

Solder over Flowers at LT
Flowers should be better than Hart
The new Guard we signed should be an upgrade as he has been healthy.
Jones at C is the same
the other G spot currently has Jerry which is the same.

On paper it is better. Also, these guys have been relatively healthy in their careers and stability more than anything should help this team.

One thing Flowers showed last offseason was that he was willing to work. He spent the offseason at the facility working on his technique and his body and we did see improvement. If he does that again, he can learn the RT all offseason instead of just at the beginning of camp or during camp. The kid will be 24 this season. His LG was a revolving door his whole career because Pugh couldnt stay healthy. I think this new offense will work better for him since the coach designs the O around the players he has. If Flowers is struggling I think Shurmur will make the adjustments needed. Give him TE or RB help, maybe even chip the pass rusher which I didnt see much of. How about a screen pass??? Maybe we can run one successfully to slow the pass rush.

You dont give up on a kid who is going to be just 24 this season. He may not turn out to be anything more than what he is now but he has a new coach and a fresh start If someone beats him out then so be it. But people need to lighten up on him and give him a chance at a position many thought he was going to excel at in the 1st place. When he was drafted many people had him pegged as a RT and our GM said he was a LT from the start.

I for one think the OL is better already than what we have had the last few years.
Keith..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/16/2018 10:49 am : link
he has the size to handle the edge. Inside requires much better footwork, but more importantly hand work. His hand placement has been criticized by quite a few analysts. Basically, his technique may get him by at tackle sometimes but those issues get magnified inside, especially if his footwork is poor, a gap shoot comes his way, causing the RB to get blown up.

Hand placement will show up in other areas. He'll get stood up at the point of contact or won't get push as the defender will pivot or spin off.
RE: I am really getting sick of Geoff Schwartz  
Alan in Toledo : 3/16/2018 10:51 am : link
In comment 13869061 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
For a guy that was a massive waste of money and played like dogshit, he sure has an opinion about everything.


But you and I have done absolutely nothing yet it's ok for us to venture opinions? Get a grip, man.
RE: I am not an OL x's and o's guy either  
arcarsenal : 3/16/2018 10:53 am : link
In comment 13869071 Keith said:
Quote:
and at the risk of getting mocked, can someone explain why Flowers wouldn't work at guard. My thoughts is that his weakness is in space. He's a big strong guy who can move guys when he gets his hands on them, so I figured he'd be a good candidate at guard. Can someone with actual OL knowledge explain why that wouldn't be the case?


He struggles with speed off the edge. Almost all of his holding penalties happen when the rusher starts getting around him because his last resort is to put them in a headlock and take them to the ground.

I personally think he would be a candidate to play guard because it would minimize the amount of lateral movement and he'd no longer have to deal with speed rushers. He could instead focus on anchoring and using his strength inside.

His hand technique sucks and has to get better for it to work, but I think he'd be better off trying to engage bullrushers or guys trying to strafe past him than he has been at stopping guys from gaining the edge on him and angling towards Eli.

He does have quick feet in small spaces. It seems to me like his problems become exacerbated when he has to move laterally.

I don't think we're going to be doing a ton of pulling in this offense, either.

I don't know - I think it could work but some people swear it can't. I'd at least try it in camp or pre. If it doesn't work, so be it. He's probably gone after this season no matter what.
Guys..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/16/2018 10:53 am : link
great job getting the new gig!!

Greg - how much does it pay???
Say what you want about Flowers  
ryanmkeane : 3/16/2018 10:54 am : link
but the guy has basically played every snap except for 1 game since he was drafted. He's out there battling which says more about what Schwartz ever did for us
He’s Missing the point  
UberAlias : 3/16/2018 10:55 am : link
They’re generating competition, something they completely failed to do in the past.

And the wait until the move him to guard crowd chimes in comment makes no sense. His point is that moving Flowers to Right won’t fix his technique or the speed of rushers he will face. That point is has no merit when considering a move to guard and the team never mentioned guard. It’s a random comment.
RE: RE: Playing on the right side  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 3/16/2018 10:57 am : link
In comment 13868980 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 13868972 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


could be more natural to him, which would certainly help fundamentals/mechanics.

The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.



It could be but why? He has played LT for, what, the last 5+ years? I doubt RT is going to feel more natural to him. However, that is probably a good thing. Being an OL should be a very uncomfortable thing. When you start getting comfortable you start getting complacent.


Well lets put it this way. Your right handed, but you force yourself to learn how to write left handed for 5 years. Do you think you would have a problem writing right handed if you decided to do so? (This is just an analogy).
RE: I am really getting sick of Geoff Schwartz  
trueblueinpw : 3/16/2018 11:00 am : link
In comment 13869061 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
For a guy that was a massive waste of money and played like dogshit, he sure has an opinion about everything.


Agree, was just thinking the same thing about Schwartz.

And it’s not like DG and PS don’t know anything about football. Maybe Flowers pans out for the season on the right, maybe he doesn’t. What we do know is that DG just spent a lot of money on Flowers replacement and he didn’t sign Richburg and hasn’t signed Pugh and he kicked Hart to curb. Pretty sure DG knows that the O line needs to be fixed. I suppose our first hint would have been when DG said, “we have to fix the offensive line”. Give Flowers a chance to compete for a spot.
Tackle  
stretch234 : 3/16/2018 11:05 am : link
The vast majority of RT in the NFL are failed NFL LT's or college LT's that had no shot at LT in the NFL
Geoff Schwartz and Golic Jr?  
Chris684 : 3/16/2018 11:07 am : link
Who cares what they think? The signing of Geoff Schwartz single handedly set this franchise back a few years he was so terrible.

Anyway, isn't it pretty obvious Flowers will compete for the RT spot once Solder was signed? Flowers is not a LT but if we're being fair, he had his moments over there. It wasn't all bad. Put him at RT, where he was drafted to play and see what happens. Shurmur and Gettleman doing what should be done here.
This is dumb  
Tim in VA : 3/16/2018 11:10 am : link
The only thing we know is that Solder is now our OLT. Flowers has an opportunity to compete for the ORT position, maybe inside, but he has hardly been anointed the starter.
I follow Schwartz on Twitter  
montanagiant : 3/16/2018 11:10 am : link
The guy can be a real asshole at times for no good reason.
Do they think Flowers  
Tim in VA : 3/16/2018 11:11 am : link
Should start over Solder? Doubtful. There's nothing to complain about otherwise.
The difference between  
Gman11 : 3/16/2018 11:13 am : link
LT and RT is Eli will be able to see the DL bearing down on him when Flowers does the matador block.
Possible move  
GiantsRage2007 : 3/16/2018 11:22 am : link
POSSIBLE!!!

Let's see where the chips fall shall we? I doubt OL on the roster right now will be the same as Week 1.

Let's see what happens huh?
RE: RE: RE: So all these guys are suggesting that there isn't a talent gap  
Ira : 3/16/2018 11:25 am : link
In comment 13869002 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13868957 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside.

2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.


Two good points. Another point is move back while shift to the right is more natural to a right handed person that sifting to the left.
Flowers does not have the skills to play tackle..  
EricJ : 3/16/2018 11:30 am : link
and I agree with Golic. Horrible footwork and use of his hands. He is a strong guy who has no finesse game.

Saying this has "worked before" means nothing because a different player being successful means nothing.

Moving a piece of dog shit from your left pocket to your right does not make it anything other than dog shit.
RE: RE: RE: So all these guys are suggesting that there isn't a talent gap  
Thegratefulhead : 3/16/2018 11:30 am : link
In comment 13869002 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13868957 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 13868945 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL?

I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.



Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others.



1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside.

2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.
That makes a huge impact. Flowers is also right handed, it is more natural. If he get a little better and the move helps a little more, plus Eli can see the pressure. Run a little more than pass, maybe we have something. I would love to salvage the 10 pick in the draft.
It's such a stupid argument by them  
montanagiant : 3/16/2018 11:35 am : link
Flowers was not working out at LT so a change there had to be made. Given the fact that he does have some ability, is under contract, and was the 9th pick 3 years ago you have to give him a shot at the RT/RG spot and if he can't cut it there you let him play out his rookie contract and release him. The Giants HAD to upgrade the LT spot so wtf is this somehow bad to try him at RT?

You read what these tools write and it's as if they are thinking about this from a Madden type mindset in which you turn the Salary Cap off mode.
Flowers was orginally projected at RT  
Paulie Walnuts : 3/16/2018 11:37 am : link
pre draft... only Reese thought he could play LT
He didnt have the feet or technique to play LT at pro Level
we'll see if he can do it at RT

PS sick of Geoff Scwhartz at this point, pfffttt
RE: It's such a stupid argument by them  
montanagiant : 3/16/2018 11:44 am : link
In comment 13869234 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Flowers was not working out at LT so a change there had to be made. Given the fact that he does have some ability, is under contract, and was the 9th pick 3 years ago you have to give him a shot at the RT/RG spot and if he can't cut it there you let him play out his rookie contract and release him. The Giants HAD to upgrade the LT spot so wtf is this somehow bad to try him at RT?

You read what these tools write and it's as if they are thinking about this from a Madden type mindset in which you turn the Salary Cap off mode.


Should say " If he can't cut it there you bench him and let him play out his rookie contract
For them to suggest he can't play Right Tackle  
est1986 : 3/16/2018 11:51 am : link
Because he's been the Left Tackle is really dumb IMO and Geoff Schwartz must have forgot he 'sucked ass' at tackle and was switched to guard where he just 'sucked' and wouldn't even suit up to play if he had a minor bruise or a scratch on him. Flowers if anything is tough as nails and would have started off at right tackle if Beatty didn't get hurt in the weight room a few weeks after we drafted Flowers.
Flowers sucks  
KWALL2 : 3/16/2018 11:54 am : link
And that won’t change at RT. Try him at G iot just cut him.

We need a better plan for the RT spot.
By their logic,  
phil in arizona : 3/16/2018 11:54 am : link
it's a better move to keep him at LT? Lol, no thanks.

DG is doing the correct thing by making him *compete* for a spot on the right side. If he can't beat out Wheeler, some journeyman FA, or a rookie, then adios!
RE: Flowers was orginally projected at RT  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 3/16/2018 11:59 am : link
In comment 13869242 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
pre draft... only Reese thought he could play LT
He didnt have the feet or technique to play LT at pro Level
we'll see if he can do it at RT

PS sick of Geoff Scwhartz at this point, pfffttt


Ugh Flowers was slated to actually play at RT when he was first drafted and was more then likely going to develop until he could play LT. Beatty getting injured killed that plan and he was thrust into LT because we had no one else that could possibly play there. In 20/20 hindsight they should have tried Pugh there first and let Beatty develop at RT for a while.
yes too bad Beatty got hurt  
Paulie Walnuts : 3/16/2018 12:24 pm : link
but Reese went overboard on Beatty too..
We would have drafted Longs kid instead of Flowers
RE: He’s Missing the point  
RobCarpenter : 3/16/2018 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13869106 UberAlias said:
Quote:
They’re generating competition, something they completely failed to do in the past.

And the wait until the move him to guard crowd chimes in comment makes no sense. His point is that moving Flowers to Right won’t fix his technique or the speed of rushers he will face. That point is has no merit when considering a move to guard and the team never mentioned guard. It’s a random comment.


+1,000. I don't know why the sports media doesn't understand how the new regime isn't simply going to hand starting jobs to players based on where they are drafted. If he wins the RT spot through competition, great.

Personally I think Flowers spends the season on the bench. Where he belongs. If he proves me wrong, fantastic.
For all the positives  
ryanmkeane : 3/16/2018 12:33 pm : link
that Reese brought to the team as a former scout, he really was absolutely horrible at finding OL. All of the players he either drafted or signed did not work out. Literally all of them.
RE: Flowers sucks  
ryanmkeane : 3/16/2018 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13869296 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
And that won’t change at RT. Try him at G iot just cut him.

We need a better plan for the RT spot.

I agree with this. If he wins the competition for RT or RG, then great. If not, see ya.
The whole point is  
Tim in VA : 3/16/2018 12:47 pm : link
It isn't about Flowers, it's about Solder. Is he the best LT on our roster? Yes! That's it. We have our LT. What's to complain about that?

What to do with Flowers given the above? Well you let him compete at RT and go from there. I just don't understand what there is to debate.
much ado about nothing  
Torrag : 3/16/2018 12:51 pm : link
Of course they'll try him at RT. Why? Because we don't have a decent RT at the moment. Why not see if he can do it. If he can't you can always try him inside.


This whole debate is a waste of time.
Flowers played better at Left Tackle last year  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/16/2018 12:53 pm : link
he was overall improved -- he was not as big a liability as is the popular perception -- and if in fact -- as Joey has said -- he is more comfortable on the Right side he could actually improve there

Face it -- we had dog poop on the Rt side the last two seasons except for a few games when Pugh played there. Flowers is definitely better than Bobby Hart ever was or could be. So the pure math says he's an improvement on the right side since that's who/what (Hart) he's basically replacing, and we all believe that Pugh can't hold up there for a full season.

RE: I am not an OL x's and o's guy either  
JohnnyFlowers : 3/16/2018 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13869071 Keith said:
Quote:
and at the risk of getting mocked, can someone explain why Flowers wouldn't work at guard. My thoughts is that his weakness is in space. He's a big strong guy who can move guys when he gets his hands on them, so I figured he'd be a good candidate at guard. Can someone with actual OL knowledge explain why that wouldn't be the case?


One of the things that people fail to include in their assessment is the scheme. Yes, he struggles in space, does not have a good first punch and his stance is so bad that it tells the D if its run or pass. Those are the major flaws I see with him at either tackle position. Based on scheme, if he is going to be zone blocking(fire off to an "area" an maul whoever is there, I think he would do well but if he is asked to pull or reach block, he doesn't seem to have the feet for that. So IMO it really depends...
PJcas  
idiotsavant : 3/16/2018 1:07 pm : link
To your initial statement. Please DO 'pretend to have an opinion' . it's not up there with drunk driving or hittng on your sister in law.
Regardless of whatever media personality just wants to be sarcastic  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/16/2018 1:13 pm : link
and score easy points, he has a contract they can't do anything with, and there's nothing wrong with having him compete for a role at another position.

What kind of non-story is this?
RE: PJcas  
pjcas18 : 3/16/2018 1:36 pm : link
In comment 13869473 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
To your initial statement. Please DO 'pretend to have an opinion' . it's not up there with drunk driving or hittng on your sister in law.


Ha, if I could even remotely pull off faking I know what I'm talking about with blocking schemes or OL responsibilities I would pretend to have an opinion.

like most of the site.

The best I can do is tell whether or not the OL is playing well or not. But like I said, I actually felt (with the eye test) that Flowers looked better last year by a lot than in his first two seasons.

That's about the extent of my OL analytics abilities.
In case it got overlooked ...  
BronxBob : 3/16/2018 1:42 pm : link
Gettleman told him at the same time that "the five best will play." So if Flowers thinks he had to work hard last offseason, time to think again.
RE: yes too bad Beatty got hurt  
est1986 : 3/16/2018 1:59 pm : link
In comment 13869390 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
but Reese went overboard on Beatty too..
We would have drafted Longs kid instead of Flowers


Long's kid? Kyle Long? If so, wrong draft.. you mean instead of Pugh we could have had Long's kid who went the pick after to Chicago but that was two draft's before the Flowers draft.
This has happened a million times in the NFL  
TD : 3/16/2018 2:15 pm : link
Guy fails at LT, moves to RT or G and does fine.

WTF are Schwartz and Golic yapping about? They suck.

Sure, Flowers might fail but this is a logical move.
Josh Sitton Comment About Switching Sides  
nflscouting : 3/16/2018 2:42 pm : link
Sitton has played left guard the last few years and in his Miami press conference he was asked if he would be comfortable switching to the right side and said no. Presses for a reason? He said it is like trying to wipe your butt with the other hand.
Flowers did line up at ROT as a frosh at Miami, but had issues working in-line, as he lacked that first step burst when having to push the pile inside. He is right-hand dominant, so that can help, but for the sake of the kid, you'd hope they just cut him loose.
He struggled to grasp blocking techniques at a position he played three years in college & several now in the pros. I just don't think the thought process is there for him to grasp new blocking schemes.
One sleeper right tackle that could be had on the cheap is LaAdrian Waddle-Pats. Here is the NFL's view on him;
Height and extreme length are prototypical for the tackle position, and his foot quickness when in balance makes it very difficult for even the best sack-masters to get the corner. Thick arms that portend his upper-body strength, and also owns enough flexibility and girth in his lower half to anchor against bull rushes. Occasionally asked to go out to linebackers, shows agility to fit onto the block and uses his long arms to shield them from the play – though he can be out-quicked by second-level defenders and doesn’t always sustain. His strength and quickness helps him as a zone run blocker, as well.
One of Schwartz's Periscope's on Twitter  
GiantTuff1 : 3/16/2018 3:20 pm : link
He said

"Giants will try him at right tackle, which he'll fail, then he'll be gone."

He has never pulled punches with Flowers. Seems like he has always thought he flat out sucked, and may seem like he has a small ax to grind with him, but is probably not wrong about him.

He said there is zero chance Flowers can play guard because of his high and poor hand placement that will get swatted away by those interior DT's.
F Schwartz  
Beer Man : 3/16/2018 4:18 pm : link
He took a boat load of the Giants money and rarely saw the field on gameday. If I want to know what clothes to wear when walking the sidelines or a recommendation for an exercise bike, then I'll look for his opinion. As for moving Flowers to the right side of the line, they should have done that day one. Its not unusual in the NFL to take a raw talented OT and start them off on the right side or on the inside while they develop their skills and learn how how to block on the big stage. Flowers was forced to play LT (the most difficult position on the OL) because of injuries to Will B.; but they should have moved him out of LT the following season
RE: One of Schwartz's Periscope's on Twitter  
Greg from LI : 3/16/2018 4:23 pm : link
In comment 13869833 GiantTuff1 said:
Quote:
He said

"Giants will try him at right tackle, which he'll fail, then he'll be gone."

He has never pulled punches with Flowers. Seems like he has always thought he flat out sucked, and may seem like he has a small ax to grind with him, but is probably not wrong about him.

He said there is zero chance Flowers can play guard because of his high and poor hand placement that will get swatted away by those interior DT's.


Well, I must admit, if anyone knows shitty OL play like the back of his hand, it's Geoff Schwartz.
RE: EF has ben playing out of position  
VinegarPeppers : 3/16/2018 4:23 pm : link
I look at it this way...at least Eli will see them coming.

In comment 13869074 Dave said:
Quote:
when he was drafted he was slated to be the RT, he was moved to LT when beatty got hurt

I know he hasn't looked good, and I know his fundamentals are bad, but he was not drafted to be the plug and play LT that he was forced to be
RE: RE: EF has ben playing out of position  
Paulie Walnuts : 3/16/2018 6:26 pm : link
In comment 13869940 VinegarPeppers said:
Quote:
I look at it this way...at least Eli will see them coming.

In comment 13869074 Dave said:


Quote:


when he was drafted he was slated to be the RT, he was moved to LT when beatty got hurt

I know he hasn't looked good, and I know his fundamentals are bad, but he was not drafted to be the plug and play LT that he was forced to be



gimme the Gabbagul, the Provolone, and the Vinegar Peppers... Floors cannot play in space
The speed DEs play against our left side  
Manny in CA : 3/16/2018 8:07 pm : link

That is what Solder was brought here to do. Flowers, I've bad-mouthed him plenty is plenty improved; not is not the time to throw the baby out with the bath water. He will do just fine on the running side - the right side.

This what I'd like to see on opening day ...

Solder - Nelson - Price - Fluker (if he doesn't bolt), else Hernandez and Flowers.

different coach  
bc4life : 3/16/2018 9:14 pm : link
different position and he will be playing next to better parts. keepin hope alive

Keep wondering how he would have been as a defensive tackle.
Golic like Hannity is an Entertainer...  
Brown_Hornet : 3/16/2018 9:29 pm : link
... deciding that what I say has real meaning means that you don't pay enough attention to those that are smart enough to know better.
The offensive line what consists of the best five offensive lineman. A few of them may be best suited to a certain spot but for the most part you're either good or you're not.
I say...  
Brown_Hornet : 3/16/2018 9:31 pm : link
They say.

Clearly I need to pay far more attention to what autocorrect decides I post.
My apologies...
RE: F Schwartz  
FStubbs : 3/16/2018 9:38 pm : link
In comment 13869936 Beer Man said:
Quote:
He took a boat load of the Giants money and rarely saw the field on gameday. If I want to know what clothes to wear when walking the sidelines or a recommendation for an exercise bike, then I'll look for his opinion. As for moving Flowers to the right side of the line, they should have done that day one. Its not unusual in the NFL to take a raw talented OT and start them off on the right side or on the inside while they develop their skills and learn how how to block on the big stage. Flowers was forced to play LT (the most difficult position on the OL) because of injuries to Will B.; but they should have moved him out of LT the following season


This. Even if Flowers fails at RT he's done more for the Giants than Schwartz ever did.
What did Golic have to say about Pugh?  
giantstock : 3/17/2018 12:43 am : link
And his struggles at Tackle?

Why is this move with Flowers different?
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