Â
|
|
Quote: |
Mike Golic Jr & #8207;Verified account @MGolicJR57 4h4 hours ago Mike Golic Jr Retweeted ESPN New York switching sides does not fix issues with fundamentals. please repeat this over and over again until it sinks in. |
Quote: |
ESPN New York & #8207;Verified account @ESPNNewYork Giants announce plan to try Ereck Flowers at right tackle http://dlvr.it/QLF6vY #NYGiants |
Quote: |
Geoff Schwartz & #8207;Verified account @geoffschwartz 4h4 hours ago no Mike, it's easy to switch positions. Duh 1 reply 3 retweets 10 likes |
Quote: |
Mike Golic Jr & #8207;Verified account @MGolicJR57 4h4 hours ago Just waiting for the “move him to guard” crowd to show up now.. |
Quote: |
Sam Monson & #8207;Verified account @PFF_Sam 2h2 hours ago So Ereck Flowers moves to the right side because he can't handle LT. All he has to face that side in 2018 is: DeMarcus Lawrence x2 Ryan Kerrigan X2 Brandon Graham X2 Whitney Mercilus Vic Beasley Cam Jordan. This can only go well. H/t @PFF_Ben |
Soooo...how can you dispute something that has been proven at times to be successful.
I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.
The RT job hasn't been handed to him. Shurmur told him that the best five guys would start, which means he's going to have to compete. Why mock what is an obvious move here - his only chance to start now is to beat out everyone else at RT. Not gonna happen over Solder.
Of course, he's going to back up Solder but if he wants to start he's going to compete at RT. That's all that's been said.
I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.
Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others.
And then I think he's saying tackles (in a vacuum) don't make good guards just because they failed at tackle.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I thought Flowers was pretty quietly much better last year than the first two years of his career.
To Flowers discredit, one observation I have had, and again it's not an X and O's thing, is that the more a line plays together the better they become as a unit. Has Flowers had a consistent LG in his 3 years?
The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.
Sort of defines BBI. The way they think each OL guy is malleable is humorous. I know B in ALB used to poke fun at that too.
The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.
It could be but why? He has played LT for, what, the last 5+ years? I doubt RT is going to feel more natural to him. However, that is probably a good thing. Being an OL should be a very uncomfortable thing. When you start getting comfortable you start getting complacent.
The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.
Good points.
Plus, let's remember, that was where he was going to be pegged that first year until Beatty was hurt.
It was right tackle for him all along.........
Playing him at Guard seems like a terrible fit.
He very well may not be able to play no the right side, or even at Guard, but the Giants have to try him out there - with a new coaching staff to teach him - to see if there is any reclamation to the former #9 pick in the draft.
Who knows? He may get cut the first week of training camp, but giving up on him today accomplishes what exactly?
Schwartz and Golic seem somewhat petty for the continuous piling on of the guy at this point.
Quote:
between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL?
I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.
Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others.
1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside.
2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.
He very well may not be able to play no the right side, or even at Guard, but the Giants have to try him out there - with a new coaching staff to teach him - to see if there is any reclamation to the former #9 pick in the draft.
Who knows? He may get cut the first week of training camp, but giving up on him today accomplishes what exactly?
Schwartz and Golic seem somewhat petty for the continuous piling on of the guy at this point.
^
Exactly!!
Giants aren’t sure yet what Flowers best skill really is. If they don’t find a RT to compete with Wheeler, they can look at Flowers but likely RG will be is best, only real chance.
Maybe Flowers needs to play center. He already has the forward lean over the toes down pat.
What exactly do they expect to happen? He shouldn't switch to RT...or to Guard. Are they supposed to cut him? He is dirt cheap, what exactly is wrong witg bringing him back to camp?
...and Schwartz wasn't good enough to be critiquing anything.
Quote:
In comment 13868945 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL?
I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.
Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others.
1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside.
2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.
My point was with all these teams in the shotgun there really is no blind side anymore. The blind side is primarily from going under center and taking your drops so your back is completely toward the left side. So, yeah, if you run a traditional NFL offense then the left side will have more value but I also said that the disparity between the two sides is minimal now. I never said they were equal. And sometimes when your right tackle is so bad it creates worse habits. When you see your RT get beat naturally you want to move to buy yourself more time and it throws off all of your mechanics as a QB because you are trying to buy that extra split second to get the ball off. Sometimes ignorance is bliss when you just have to feel the pressure from the left side so you go through your reads and steps naturally and just let the ball out. My point... putting an inferior player at RT still can kill an offense.
He very well may not be able to play no the right side, or even at Guard, but the Giants have to try him out there - with a new coaching staff to teach him - to see if there is any reclamation to the former #9 pick in the draft.
Who knows? He may get cut the first week of training camp, but giving up on him today accomplishes what exactly?
Schwartz and Golic seem somewhat petty for the continuous piling on of the guy at this point.
I think they're piling on the concept more than the player.
Just my take. I don't think either was being personal (from the tweets I read).
I don't think they're saying to cut him, just maybe have him as a backup until it makes sense to cut him.
but they didn't offer any insight into that, the Giants created this situation by signing a LT (one who is without a doubt an upgrade) and having a LT on the roster already.
These people (Golic (jr) and Schwartz) were simply commenting on the ESPN report about the Giants moving Flowers to RT.
The knee jerk reactions to some of these twitter warriors like Schwartz is really fucking pathetic. Hey Geoff - you stole money from the Giants
Just a hunch.
PS is going to realize Eli is best in play-action.
He'll either beat out the competition at RT or he'll serve as the back-up swing tackle. With his contract guaranteed, there is no benefit to cutting him. The only savings is if the Giants can trade him where another team pays his salary. Even still, we have to eat the pro-rated signing bonus.
The real overreaction seems to me is the people who bristle at the opinion or criticism.
Just a hunch.
PS is going to realize Eli is best in play-action.
I am much more interested in what we see (and how soon we can see it) post Eli. If Rosen, we will thankfully get to turn the page immediately. If Darnold or Allen, we will probably have to wait a year as both are raw. If Webb, it is unclear.
Playing him at Guard seems like a terrible fit.
The one thing I have seen here by a few people is using the examples of Eric Moore and William Roberts as Tackles that moved to Guard. BUT, those two players were completely different than Flowers. Roberts was very fluid at tackle but lacked the tackle instincts and seemed to fluid (in back pedal he moved so light on his feet that guys just pushed him back and he tended to just reach and place his hands but without power. His movement skills are what allowed a move to guard.
Flowers is taller and has size but his feet are awful and only outdone by his even worse hand placement. As a guard all the negatives he has right now would be magnified.
Just a hunch.
PS is going to realize Eli is best in play-action.
Absolutely. I was talking about the offense we have run since Flowers has been here which was primarily as a shotgun offense.
Also, I just want to say that I agree with both Golic and the Giants. Golic just made a statement that moving sides doesn't fix bad fundamentals. That is 100% true. Basically, what he is saying is that if he is the same player then he will fail there too. If he fixes his fundamentals then he has a chance. Did he ever say the Giants were wrong? Did he say the Giants should have done something different? If he did then I didn't see it.
From the Giants perspectives, I have been saying this since year 1/2. We need competition. Allowing a rookie to come in and not compete but just be given a job is not the best way to go about things. Yes, things changed with Beatty but that was the first year. What about every year after that? We had opportunities (not great ones but opportunities) to bring in vet OL who had LT experienceand success. We just kept letting Flowers have the job wothout earning it. That could work but when it doesn't you have no contingency plan. And any good manager or leader is going to have a plan A, B,and C. Didn't Reese do this with Pettigout and Diehl? He released Pettigout and we were all concerned that we had no LT. Then Diehl rose to the occasion... luckily. This time around we weren't so lucky.
I know he hasn't looked good, and I know his fundamentals are bad, but he was not drafted to be the plug and play LT that he was forced to be
sheesh
Flowers played much better the second half of last year.
It seemed that he was finally getting his technique down.
He was not lunging as much, he was sliding better, and he was bending rather than leaning.
He was giving up far fewer pressures and sacks.
If Flowers were a 3rd round pick most would be giving him a chance.
I think that he needed a change in coaching and a position change. It will reduce the pressure that he has had to deal with since starting as a rookie.
No problem with a guy tossing out opinions but I get the distinct impression that it's personal with Flowers - he really hates this guy's guts. Probably some locker room stuff from 2015 plus gossip from former teammates. If you're going to be a professional commentator or aspire to be one you have to be able to put personal feelings aside.
Solder over Flowers at LT
Flowers should be better than Hart
The new Guard we signed should be an upgrade as he has been healthy.
Jones at C is the same
the other G spot currently has Jerry which is the same.
On paper it is better. Also, these guys have been relatively healthy in their careers and stability more than anything should help this team.
One thing Flowers showed last offseason was that he was willing to work. He spent the offseason at the facility working on his technique and his body and we did see improvement. If he does that again, he can learn the RT all offseason instead of just at the beginning of camp or during camp. The kid will be 24 this season. His LG was a revolving door his whole career because Pugh couldnt stay healthy. I think this new offense will work better for him since the coach designs the O around the players he has. If Flowers is struggling I think Shurmur will make the adjustments needed. Give him TE or RB help, maybe even chip the pass rusher which I didnt see much of. How about a screen pass??? Maybe we can run one successfully to slow the pass rush.
You dont give up on a kid who is going to be just 24 this season. He may not turn out to be anything more than what he is now but he has a new coach and a fresh start If someone beats him out then so be it. But people need to lighten up on him and give him a chance at a position many thought he was going to excel at in the 1st place. When he was drafted many people had him pegged as a RT and our GM said he was a LT from the start.
I for one think the OL is better already than what we have had the last few years.
Hand placement will show up in other areas. He'll get stood up at the point of contact or won't get push as the defender will pivot or spin off.
But you and I have done absolutely nothing yet it's ok for us to venture opinions? Get a grip, man.
He struggles with speed off the edge. Almost all of his holding penalties happen when the rusher starts getting around him because his last resort is to put them in a headlock and take them to the ground.
I personally think he would be a candidate to play guard because it would minimize the amount of lateral movement and he'd no longer have to deal with speed rushers. He could instead focus on anchoring and using his strength inside.
His hand technique sucks and has to get better for it to work, but I think he'd be better off trying to engage bullrushers or guys trying to strafe past him than he has been at stopping guys from gaining the edge on him and angling towards Eli.
He does have quick feet in small spaces. It seems to me like his problems become exacerbated when he has to move laterally.
I don't think we're going to be doing a ton of pulling in this offense, either.
I don't know - I think it could work but some people swear it can't. I'd at least try it in camp or pre. If it doesn't work, so be it. He's probably gone after this season no matter what.
Greg - how much does it pay???
And the wait until the move him to guard crowd chimes in comment makes no sense. His point is that moving Flowers to Right won’t fix his technique or the speed of rushers he will face. That point is has no merit when considering a move to guard and the team never mentioned guard. It’s a random comment.
Quote:
could be more natural to him, which would certainly help fundamentals/mechanics.
The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.
It could be but why? He has played LT for, what, the last 5+ years? I doubt RT is going to feel more natural to him. However, that is probably a good thing. Being an OL should be a very uncomfortable thing. When you start getting comfortable you start getting complacent.
Well lets put it this way. Your right handed, but you force yourself to learn how to write left handed for 5 years. Do you think you would have a problem writing right handed if you decided to do so? (This is just an analogy).
Agree, was just thinking the same thing about Schwartz.
And it’s not like DG and PS don’t know anything about football. Maybe Flowers pans out for the season on the right, maybe he doesn’t. What we do know is that DG just spent a lot of money on Flowers replacement and he didn’t sign Richburg and hasn’t signed Pugh and he kicked Hart to curb. Pretty sure DG knows that the O line needs to be fixed. I suppose our first hint would have been when DG said, “we have to fix the offensive line”. Give Flowers a chance to compete for a spot.
Anyway, isn't it pretty obvious Flowers will compete for the RT spot once Solder was signed? Flowers is not a LT but if we're being fair, he had his moments over there. It wasn't all bad. Put him at RT, where he was drafted to play and see what happens. Shurmur and Gettleman doing what should be done here.
Let's see where the chips fall shall we? I doubt OL on the roster right now will be the same as Week 1.
Let's see what happens huh?
Quote:
1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside.
2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.
Two good points. Another point is move back while shift to the right is more natural to a right handed person that sifting to the left.
Saying this has "worked before" means nothing because a different player being successful means nothing.
Moving a piece of dog shit from your left pocket to your right does not make it anything other than dog shit.
Quote:
In comment 13868945 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL?
I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.
Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others.
1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside.
2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.
You read what these tools write and it's as if they are thinking about this from a Madden type mindset in which you turn the Salary Cap off mode.
He didnt have the feet or technique to play LT at pro Level
we'll see if he can do it at RT
PS sick of Geoff Scwhartz at this point, pfffttt
You read what these tools write and it's as if they are thinking about this from a Madden type mindset in which you turn the Salary Cap off mode.
Should say " If he can't cut it there you bench him and let him play out his rookie contract
We need a better plan for the RT spot.
DG is doing the correct thing by making him *compete* for a spot on the right side. If he can't beat out Wheeler, some journeyman FA, or a rookie, then adios!
He didnt have the feet or technique to play LT at pro Level
we'll see if he can do it at RT
PS sick of Geoff Scwhartz at this point, pfffttt
Ugh Flowers was slated to actually play at RT when he was first drafted and was more then likely going to develop until he could play LT. Beatty getting injured killed that plan and he was thrust into LT because we had no one else that could possibly play there. In 20/20 hindsight they should have tried Pugh there first and let Beatty develop at RT for a while.
We would have drafted Longs kid instead of Flowers
And the wait until the move him to guard crowd chimes in comment makes no sense. His point is that moving Flowers to Right won’t fix his technique or the speed of rushers he will face. That point is has no merit when considering a move to guard and the team never mentioned guard. It’s a random comment.
+1,000. I don't know why the sports media doesn't understand how the new regime isn't simply going to hand starting jobs to players based on where they are drafted. If he wins the RT spot through competition, great.
Personally I think Flowers spends the season on the bench. Where he belongs. If he proves me wrong, fantastic.
We need a better plan for the RT spot.
I agree with this. If he wins the competition for RT or RG, then great. If not, see ya.
What to do with Flowers given the above? Well you let him compete at RT and go from there. I just don't understand what there is to debate.
This whole debate is a waste of time.
Face it -- we had dog poop on the Rt side the last two seasons except for a few games when Pugh played there. Flowers is definitely better than Bobby Hart ever was or could be. So the pure math says he's an improvement on the right side since that's who/what (Hart) he's basically replacing, and we all believe that Pugh can't hold up there for a full season.
One of the things that people fail to include in their assessment is the scheme. Yes, he struggles in space, does not have a good first punch and his stance is so bad that it tells the D if its run or pass. Those are the major flaws I see with him at either tackle position. Based on scheme, if he is going to be zone blocking(fire off to an "area" an maul whoever is there, I think he would do well but if he is asked to pull or reach block, he doesn't seem to have the feet for that. So IMO it really depends...
What kind of non-story is this?
Ha, if I could even remotely pull off faking I know what I'm talking about with blocking schemes or OL responsibilities I would pretend to have an opinion.
like most of the site.
The best I can do is tell whether or not the OL is playing well or not. But like I said, I actually felt (with the eye test) that Flowers looked better last year by a lot than in his first two seasons.
That's about the extent of my OL analytics abilities.
We would have drafted Longs kid instead of Flowers
Long's kid? Kyle Long? If so, wrong draft.. you mean instead of Pugh we could have had Long's kid who went the pick after to Chicago but that was two draft's before the Flowers draft.
WTF are Schwartz and Golic yapping about? They suck.
Sure, Flowers might fail but this is a logical move.
Flowers did line up at ROT as a frosh at Miami, but had issues working in-line, as he lacked that first step burst when having to push the pile inside. He is right-hand dominant, so that can help, but for the sake of the kid, you'd hope they just cut him loose.
He struggled to grasp blocking techniques at a position he played three years in college & several now in the pros. I just don't think the thought process is there for him to grasp new blocking schemes.
One sleeper right tackle that could be had on the cheap is LaAdrian Waddle-Pats. Here is the NFL's view on him;
Height and extreme length are prototypical for the tackle position, and his foot quickness when in balance makes it very difficult for even the best sack-masters to get the corner. Thick arms that portend his upper-body strength, and also owns enough flexibility and girth in his lower half to anchor against bull rushes. Occasionally asked to go out to linebackers, shows agility to fit onto the block and uses his long arms to shield them from the play – though he can be out-quicked by second-level defenders and doesn’t always sustain. His strength and quickness helps him as a zone run blocker, as well.
"Giants will try him at right tackle, which he'll fail, then he'll be gone."
He has never pulled punches with Flowers. Seems like he has always thought he flat out sucked, and may seem like he has a small ax to grind with him, but is probably not wrong about him.
He said there is zero chance Flowers can play guard because of his high and poor hand placement that will get swatted away by those interior DT's.
"Giants will try him at right tackle, which he'll fail, then he'll be gone."
He has never pulled punches with Flowers. Seems like he has always thought he flat out sucked, and may seem like he has a small ax to grind with him, but is probably not wrong about him.
He said there is zero chance Flowers can play guard because of his high and poor hand placement that will get swatted away by those interior DT's.
Well, I must admit, if anyone knows shitty OL play like the back of his hand, it's Geoff Schwartz.
In comment 13869074 Dave said:
I know he hasn't looked good, and I know his fundamentals are bad, but he was not drafted to be the plug and play LT that he was forced to be
In comment 13869074 Dave said:
Quote:
when he was drafted he was slated to be the RT, he was moved to LT when beatty got hurt
I know he hasn't looked good, and I know his fundamentals are bad, but he was not drafted to be the plug and play LT that he was forced to be
gimme the Gabbagul, the Provolone, and the Vinegar Peppers... Floors cannot play in space
That is what Solder was brought here to do. Flowers, I've bad-mouthed him plenty is plenty improved; not is not the time to throw the baby out with the bath water. He will do just fine on the running side - the right side.
This what I'd like to see on opening day ...
Solder - Nelson - Price - Fluker (if he doesn't bolt), else Hernandez and Flowers.
Keep wondering how he would have been as a defensive tackle.
The offensive line what consists of the best five offensive lineman. A few of them may be best suited to a certain spot but for the most part you're either good or you're not.
Clearly I need to pay far more attention to what autocorrect decides I post.
My apologies...
This. Even if Flowers fails at RT he's done more for the Giants than Schwartz ever did.
Why is this move with Flowers different?