Golic and others critical of Flowers possible move to RT

except for the examples of instances where its actually worked?

Soooo...how can you dispute something that has been proven at times to be successful.

between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL?

I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.

a one year rental....

Gettleman and Shurmer said he was moving to compete for a spot at RT not that the job was his. In other words: still gotta earn a spot/not a done deal he's the starting RT.

when Flowers was handed the LT job with no competition?

The RT job hasn't been handed to him. Shurmur told him that the best five guys would start, which means he's going to have to compete. Why mock what is an obvious move here - his only chance to start now is to beat out everyone else at RT. Not gonna happen over Solder.

Of course, he's going to back up Solder but if he wants to start he's going to compete at RT. That's all that's been said.

In comment 13868945 Giantfan in skinland said:

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between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL? I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous.

Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others.

to be saying is that Flowers hasn't lived up to expectations at LT not due to a talent, size, athleticism or other gap, but due to a fundamentals gap and moving him from LT to RT isn't going to fix his fundamentals and make him successful there.

And then I think he's saying tackles (in a vacuum) don't make good guards just because they failed at tackle.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I thought Flowers was pretty quietly much better last year than the first two years of his career.

To Flowers discredit, one observation I have had, and again it's not an X and O's thing, is that the more a line plays together the better they become as a unit. Has Flowers had a consistent LG in his 3 years?

position change but rather the pressure that is being applied by Gettleman amd Shurmur. Pressure can crumble some situations and create diamonds in others. Hes is feeling the heat now with one year left to prove himself. He knows his career is basically on the line. Time to sink or swim.

could be more natural to him, which would certainly help fundamentals/mechanics.

The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.

that I chuckled at the "wait until the move him to Guard group chimes in".

Sort of defines BBI. The way they think each OL guy is malleable is humorous. I know B in ALB used to poke fun at that too.

just to be clear.

the only thing that may get flowers to play better is being in a contract year.

In comment 13868972 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

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could be more natural to him, which would certainly help fundamentals/mechanics. The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.

It could be but why? He has played LT for, what, the last 5+ years? I doubt RT is going to feel more natural to him. However, that is probably a good thing. Being an OL should be a very uncomfortable thing. When you start getting comfortable you start getting complacent.

In comment 13868972 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

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could be more natural to him, which would certainly help fundamentals/mechanics. The other thing is, at least Eli will be able to see the pressure if Flowers struggles.

Good points.

Plus, let's remember, that was where he was going to be pegged that first year until Beatty was hurt.

It was right tackle for him all along.........

It is absolutley possible that he fails at RT and at Guard but he was a first round pick to play offenxive line and the team is sort of limited on options. Either they cut him, throw him on the bench to collect free money like Schwarts (coincidentally) or they try him in other positions to see if he can grow into one of those positions before making that decision. What would you suggest?

to be tried at RT. He's young and he was actually improved last year. Would almost by default be better than Hart, even though we need to shoot higher.

Playing him at Guard seems like a terrible fit.

Cut him today?

He very well may not be able to play no the right side, or even at Guard, but the Giants have to try him out there - with a new coaching staff to teach him - to see if there is any reclamation to the former #9 pick in the draft.

Who knows? He may get cut the first week of training camp, but giving up on him today accomplishes what exactly?

Schwartz and Golic seem somewhat petty for the continuous piling on of the guy at this point.

DG and Shurmur has told Ereck that he will compete for the starting job. He is not being given a 1 year tryout. He'll have this spring/summer to show that he can handle the switch. If not, he'll serve as the back-up swing tackle.

In comment 13868957 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

In comment 13868945 Giantfan in skinland said: Quote: between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL? I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous. Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others.

1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside.

2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.

He had a couple of bad games, but overall was better than the prior couple of years. I think he'll be okay on the right side.

saying that moving him to RT or OG would solve all of his problems? I don't recall hearing that from Shurmur or Gettleman. The team just paid a ton of money for their franchise LT. Obviously, they don't expect him to compete for his job so it was mentioned that the former LT, who is still on the team, will get a shot on the other side. That's all anyone really said.

In comment 13868994 Tom in NY said:

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Cut him today? He very well may not be able to play no the right side, or even at Guard, but the Giants have to try him out there - with a new coaching staff to teach him - to see if there is any reclamation to the former #9 pick in the draft. Who knows? He may get cut the first week of training camp, but giving up on him today accomplishes what exactly? Schwartz and Golic seem somewhat petty for the continuous piling on of the guy at this point.

^
Exactly!!

those who can't are named Golic

RT so he was moved to RG. Fluker’s flaws remained but his one skill was better utilized and his flaws were less of a liability.

Giants aren’t sure yet what Flowers best skill really is. If they don’t find a RT to compete with Wheeler, they can look at Flowers but likely RG will be is best, only real chance.

Maybe Flowers needs to play center. He already has the forward lean over the toes down pat.

If he sucks at it he likely won't be starting.

What exactly do they expect to happen? He shouldn't switch to RT...or to Guard. Are they supposed to cut him? He is dirt cheap, what exactly is wrong witg bringing him back to camp?

...and Schwartz wasn't good enough to be critiquing anything.

In comment 13869002 giants#1 said:

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In comment 13868957 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: In comment 13868945 Giantfan in skinland said: Quote: between left tackle and right tackle at the NFL level? That there aren't things that make the right side a bit easier (more TE help?). That there aren't guys who've struggled at one spot and become serviceable at others on the OL? I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near a sure thing for Flowers, but to scoff at the idea that it's possible it could help him is ridiculous. Why would there be more TE help on the right side? Coaches have full control of where TEs and RBs can help out. That is just ridiculous. Back in the 80s you can say there was a clear difference between LT and RT. With today's defenses moving pass rushers all over the field and offenses constantly in the shotgun the disparity between LTs and RTs is minimal. Golic is right. Changing sides doesn't fix fundamentals and he could even be worse. It is like a baseball player hitting left hamded and right handed. Some people can do it and some cant. Some are better at one side of the plate than others. 1. Somewhat moot with Eli at QB, but one reason RT is typically "easier" is that the QB can see the pressure coming and adjust his drop accordingly to avoid it. Much harder to do when the pressure is coming from his blindside. 2. While there's nothing about the right side that inherently means more TE help, adding a LT of Solder's ability should allow them to help Flowers (or whoever the RT ends up as) more. Last year it was pick your poison with Hart manning the other OT spot.

My point was with all these teams in the shotgun there really is no blind side anymore. The blind side is primarily from going under center and taking your drops so your back is completely toward the left side. So, yeah, if you run a traditional NFL offense then the left side will have more value but I also said that the disparity between the two sides is minimal now. I never said they were equal. And sometimes when your right tackle is so bad it creates worse habits. When you see your RT get beat naturally you want to move to buy yourself more time and it throws off all of your mechanics as a QB because you are trying to buy that extra split second to get the ball off. Sometimes ignorance is bliss when you just have to feel the pressure from the left side so you go through your reads and steps naturally and just let the ball out. My point... putting an inferior player at RT still can kill an offense.

Dave and Pat Shurmur more than a never will be who got a scholarship because of Daddy's name. Give Flowers a shot, see what happens. Let the presumptive geniuses who don't understand basic physiology shoo this one away. He gets a shot, that's it, so fucking what Golic and Schwartz. God I hate Schwartz, what a soft do nothing.

In comment 13868994 Tom in NY said:

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Cut him today? He very well may not be able to play no the right side, or even at Guard, but the Giants have to try him out there - with a new coaching staff to teach him - to see if there is any reclamation to the former #9 pick in the draft. Who knows? He may get cut the first week of training camp, but giving up on him today accomplishes what exactly? Schwartz and Golic seem somewhat petty for the continuous piling on of the guy at this point.

I think they're piling on the concept more than the player.

Just my take. I don't think either was being personal (from the tweets I read).

I don't think they're saying to cut him, just maybe have him as a backup until it makes sense to cut him.

but they didn't offer any insight into that, the Giants created this situation by signing a LT (one who is without a doubt an upgrade) and having a LT on the roster already.

These people (Golic (jr) and Schwartz) were simply commenting on the ESPN report about the Giants moving Flowers to RT.

He will have the same troubles at RT he had at LT, the two positions are no longer that different. Many teams now have solid rushers on both sides (like OVV and JPP). IMO, Guard is the place to try with him.

all they said was they would try him out at RT. They aren't handing him the position and nobody is saying RT will be better for him than LT - they are just moving him because he sucks at LT.

The knee jerk reactions to some of these twitter warriors like Schwartz is really fucking pathetic. Hey Geoff - you stole money from the Giants

...I think we are going to see Eli under center much, much more than before.

Just a hunch.

PS is going to realize Eli is best in play-action.

If you consider a head to head competition of Flowers/Greco; Flowers/Jerry; Flowers/Halapio - All of those players have experience at guard. It would be a challenge for Flowers to demonstrate competency better than a player that has been doing it their entire career. Now, Jerry/Greco/Halapio might not be great shakes, but they are entering any competition with an advantage over Flowers. I wouldn't presume that Flowers can demonstrate an advantage over the others.

He'll either beat out the competition at RT or he'll serve as the back-up swing tackle. With his contract guaranteed, there is no benefit to cutting him. The only savings is if the Giants can trade him where another team pays his salary. Even still, we have to eat the pro-rated signing bonus.

Bunch of overreactions. We know he can't play the left side. If he can't play the right he'll sit on the bench or be released. Geeesh.

For 2 years until Beatty is done, then a failed experiment at LT before moving to guard.

the feasibility of moving an OL to another OL spot?

The real overreaction seems to me is the people who bristle at the opinion or criticism.

Considering we invested a Top 10 draft pick in the guy, it's probably worth one. Worst case scenario, Eli can actually see the guy he's blocking instead of worrying about the rusher coming from behind him. Seems like a win to me.

Have played guard and tackle and done, well, all the experts that say it is laughable for him to be given a shot at guard are the same ones saying to move him to right tackle, where that is a joke, he will never make it at tackle, he already proved that point, but keep it rolling. Unless switching sides from where you are comfortable is going to improve him. That makes real sense.

In comment 13869039 BillKo said:

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...I think we are going to see Eli under center much, much more than before. Just a hunch. PS is going to realize Eli is best in play-action.

I am much more interested in what we see (and how soon we can see it) post Eli. If Rosen, we will thankfully get to turn the page immediately. If Darnold or Allen, we will probably have to wait a year as both are raw. If Webb, it is unclear.

For a guy that was a massive waste of money and played like dogshit, he sure has an opinion about everything.

In comment 13868992 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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to be tried at RT. He's young and he was actually improved last year. Would almost by default be better than Hart, even though we need to shoot higher. Playing him at Guard seems like a terrible fit.

The one thing I have seen here by a few people is using the examples of Eric Moore and William Roberts as Tackles that moved to Guard. BUT, those two players were completely different than Flowers. Roberts was very fluid at tackle but lacked the tackle instincts and seemed to fluid (in back pedal he moved so light on his feet that guys just pushed him back and he tended to just reach and place his hands but without power. His movement skills are what allowed a move to guard.

Flowers is taller and has size but his feet are awful and only outdone by his even worse hand placement. As a guard all the negatives he has right now would be magnified.

In comment 13869039 BillKo said:

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...I think we are going to see Eli under center much, much more than before. Just a hunch. PS is going to realize Eli is best in play-action.

Absolutely. I was talking about the offense we have run since Flowers has been here which was primarily as a shotgun offense.

Also, I just want to say that I agree with both Golic and the Giants. Golic just made a statement that moving sides doesn't fix bad fundamentals. That is 100% true. Basically, what he is saying is that if he is the same player then he will fail there too. If he fixes his fundamentals then he has a chance. Did he ever say the Giants were wrong? Did he say the Giants should have done something different? If he did then I didn't see it.

From the Giants perspectives, I have been saying this since year 1/2. We need competition. Allowing a rookie to come in and not compete but just be given a job is not the best way to go about things. Yes, things changed with Beatty but that was the first year. What about every year after that? We had opportunities (not great ones but opportunities) to bring in vet OL who had LT experienceand success. We just kept letting Flowers have the job wothout earning it. That could work but when it doesn't you have no contingency plan. And any good manager or leader is going to have a plan A, B,and C. Didn't Reese do this with Pettigout and Diehl? He released Pettigout and we were all concerned that we had no LT. Then Diehl rose to the occasion... luckily. This time around we weren't so lucky.

No way I give up on him before trying him at another position. And again question the coaching he was getting here

is allow Eli to see who is about to lay him out.

and that's fine. Maybe it works maybe it doesn't. But their stance seems like their minds are already made up. Glad they are sticking to the booth/reporting.

and at the risk of getting mocked, can someone explain why Flowers wouldn't work at guard. My thoughts is that his weakness is in space. He's a big strong guy who can move guys when he gets his hands on them, so I figured he'd be a good candidate at guard. Can someone with actual OL knowledge explain why that wouldn't be the case?

when he was drafted he was slated to be the RT, he was moved to LT when beatty got hurt

I know he hasn't looked good, and I know his fundamentals are bad, but he was not drafted to be the plug and play LT that he was forced to be

is absolutely brutal

just look at the difference in salaries

sheesh

so be it. A pretty reasonable one $ at least. And better than most backups. My guess he's our starting RT to begin the season. Switching LT to RT has worked before. He started there his rookie year as I recall until Beatty got hurt.

And I'd trust his opinion a helluva lot more than Geoff fuckin' Schwartz's since Ard was a solid player and a champion while all Schwartz ever did as a Giant was steal money from them.