Excluding last year because it’s too soon to tell with those guys:
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? I’d say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Let’s not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Eli’s replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
Mike it might be a 50% chance of success if we go QB
But if we don't there will be a 100% certainty we will be unsuccessful.
There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
That's not true, Stan in LA has doubts abou...
...oh. Right.
The Giants need a QB and this is a very good QB class. Â
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes they’re different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
You are flat out wrong. The worry about Barkley according to scouts is that he is not the interior runner you expect for his size and that he bounces too many runs to the outside. Sound familiar? That is the problem with a lot of failed backs in the NFL. I'm not saying Barkley will fail, but he surely isn't a no doubt generational talent. Believe me, if the Giants get him and he leaves a string of negative plays on the field and you see him unable to beat teams on the outside he is going to look very average. I think he will be good but in this situation you draft a QB. If we get Rosen and both he and Barkley become stars, around the time Barkley starts to flame out Rosen will be hitting the middle of his prime. So it goes with RBs vs QBs.
RE: Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10 Â
Excluding last year because it’s too soon to tell with those guys:
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? I’d say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Let’s not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Eli’s replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
But they could trade the pick to a team that does covet Rosen if they are confident the could get their QB with the #3 overall (if they were to trade down with the Jets) or the #4 overall. They only need to have two QBs other than Rosen on their wish list for them to feel confident in trading down. Unless they believe there is a chance that neither the Jets or Giants would select Rosen. Like I said, in 2004 the Chargers were able to demand the #4 overall pick, a third round pick, and future 1st and 5th round picks of the Giants and still come away with the QB of their choice. Gettleman needs to avoid a repeat of that, but he also needs to avoid missing out on the QB of his choice, if he prefers one clearly above the rest.
This logic would be applicable if we were dealing with the old Browns management who ran the team like they were playing Madden. Dorsey is an old school football guy who understands the importance of having your franchise QB in place.I don't see the Browns trading away their #1 for anything less than all of a teams' draft picks & even then, it wouldn't be a slam dunk. They have their #4 & 2 early #2's,why would they move? It's the same reason another old school football guy,weened under Ernie Acorsi,Dave Gettleman, takes a QB w/#2 Al McGuire once said "Paralysis by over analysis" is a dangerous thing.The NFL draft allows pundits & draftniks to do this for 4 long months when sometimes the most logical answer is also the easiest one!
In comment 13871827 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
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In comment 13871688 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 13871364 ryanmkeane said:
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was that Webb was a 3rd round pick and some had him rated even higher than that. Big difference between Webb and a guy like Keenum.
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
"Davis Webb's got a live arm. He drops it in the bucket. Moves well enough, quick release, big arm. He's one of the five quarterbacks where you can make a case in this draft that they can start a game in the NFL and be a quarterback." -- Mike Mayock
During the fall, some team sources told WalterFootball.com that there were some area scouts for the west coast who had a higher grade on Davis Webb than they had given to Jared Goff a year earlier. While Goff was the No. 1-overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, there were teams that had him graded much later and didn't like him as a prospect. Still, it was nice acclaim for Webb to be graded higher than Goff and validated Webb status as am NFL prospect.
Davis Webb: Another QB Enters the Round 1 Conversation "Six weeks before the draft, Webb is a legitimate second-round candidate, and it’s feasible that, come the last weekend in April, he will be billed as someone’s quarterback of the future." SportsIllustrated
Senior Bowl executive director Phil Savage reports that "[t]he [Cal QB] Davis Webb talk is legit as far as [the] first round."
Savage relays that he has "had several NFL people tell [him] that [Webb] is the guy they would want to coach." We have heard a consistent bubbling of rumor around the possibility of Webb landing in the first round as the pre-draft process hits its stretch run. At the end of March, Pete Prisco of CBS Sports likewise heard that steam was picking up toward a Day 1 selection. Webb, himself, has said that teams in the double-digits have told him he is a first-round talent. If he isn't swept off the board by the end of Round 1, he will almost certainly find an NFL home early in Round 2.
An NFL scout says Cal QB Davis Webb "has Dak-like intangibles."
Webb's stock is surging at the right time. NFL Network's Ian Rapoport "wouldn't be surprised to see a team trade back into round 1" for Webb, a sentiment we've read on multiple occasions over the past 10 days. Draft Analyst's Tony Pauline reported Tuesday that if the Browns don't take UNC's Mitchell Trubisky in Round 1, Webb is "likely to be the target" with the No. 33 selection.
One NFL personnel executive believes that Clemson QB Deshaun Watson and Cal QB Davis Webb will be the only quarterbacks selected on Day 1 of the draft.
Well that would be a weird combo. Color us surprised if UNC QB Mitchell Trubisky is still available at the end of the first round. "I am sticking to my Webb guns," the executive insisted. "He's the second-best QB in this class. I have read the Trubisky and Mahomes buzz. Not sure if I believe it." This came about from an informal poll of five insiders by NFL Media's Daniel Jeremiah to gauge just how many quarterbacks might be taken in Round 1. The most optimistic executive forwarded the possibility of four gunslingers going off the board by the end of April 27. Three is probably the safest bet.
The MMQB's Albert Breer mentioned Cal's Davis Webb as one of five QBs who has a chance of being selected in the first round.
We would be more than stunned if this happens. Webb is not close to being ready for the NFL. He was arguably the best quarterback at the Senior Bowl... but the competition was less than ideal. Webb has a big arm, but has only played out of the Air Raid system, a system with a playbook of five to seven concepts that passers master (see Jared Goff). Even if it is not a first round selection, Webb seems destined for a second day pick.
Great job. You posted journalists repeating stuff they were told weeks before the draft about a guy "in the conversation" for being in the first round. However, every scout and GM they talked to worked for a team that passed on him in the first round. Then every one of them passed in him again in the second round. Then many of the passed on him again in the 3rd round...
So again, which non-journalist (Mayock didn't put a round on him in what you posted) had Webb evaluated as a first round pick at the time of the draft?
If Giants and Jets both want Rosen and Cleveland knows it, the Giants have to worry about jets jumping in Front. The Giants can't leak any info before the draft. They have to send out miss information.
Hopefully Cleveland wants Darnold or Allen and would be worried that either the Giants or another team the Giants trade with after jets take Rosen, would grab the QB they want.
I'm also hoping that Cleveland decides not to get cute since they fucked things up so badly the last few years.
Not trying to call you out, but what you posted is the usual anonymous misdirection that teams feed to journalists before the draft. Mayock's quote does not say to me that he evaluated Webb as a first or second round pick, only that you could make a case he is one of five guys who could start a game in the NFL. The other name you used was Savage. I'll give you that. One guy who put his name to it thought he could be a first round pick. One guy, who had been out of the league 5 years.
The only view any of us have about what real NFL scouts and GMS believe a guy's potential is is when they are drafted. Webb is a 3rd round pick and the fifth QB selected in that draft. It's silly to keep pretending that we probably got a first round talent in the third round without actual evidence of what he can do at the NFL level. All of us would love for the guy to be a stud player and become our QB of the future. You just can't make personnel decisions based on hope.
Any chance the top of the draft can go like this... Â
2 days after Mayfields pro day and 1 day after Rosen’s. The drool is still hanging from their mouth.
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know it’s going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets don’t leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think there’s a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as he’s having trouble containing his excitement.
It could easily go that way. - getting Barkley at #5 Â
If the Giants do trade down, I hope it is with Denver and not Buffalo. In my opinion 12 is too far to drop back.
At #5 you still get one of Rosen, Darnold, Barkley, Nelson, Fitzpatrick or Chubb. If they like Mayfield or Allen as a franchise QB, it is even better. At #12 they stockpile more picks, but the premiere talent in the draft is off the board.
Now if they have a conviction on someone like Jackson, Laulette or Rudolph, then trading with Buffalo is an option as it allows them to still get their QB and more picks. Need to trust Shula and Shurmur to know not only who is better, but how significant the delta is between all of these guys.
RE: RE: Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10 Â
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place you’re going to find a replacement for Eli, if we don’t take one of these guys we’re doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
Rosen may like the Giants much more than Cleveland Â
but it doesn't mean it is based on anything the Giants said to him. Even if he is their guy there is no way they are telling him that...unless they are also saying that to Darnold and Mayfield.
2 days after Mayfields pro day and 1 day after Rosen’s. The drool is still hanging from their mouth.
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know it’s going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets don’t leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think there’s a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as he’s having trouble containing his excitement.
I see any possibility of the Browns trading their 1st pick as slim to none. But I agree I think the Jets are hot after Rosen or Mayfield or Allen. Darnold seems like a Browns pick at 1.
Why do you think the giants have a fear of the jets going to 1 for Rosen? I don't think the giants are taking a qb but if they do ill be shocked if its Rosen. Imo giants take Barkley or trade back. I do think if they went qb it would be Darnold or Allen. I'd be shocked if its Rosen. To me Rosen will fall in this draft
1. Browns take a QB
2. Denver takes a QB
3. Jets take a QB
4. Browns take Chubb
5. Giants take Barkley
Well I don't know about the Giants/Denver thing at 2 but according to some Browns forums/fan sites there seems to be interest from both the team and fans in Chubb at 4, and going RB at the top of the 2nd Rd.
RE: RE: RE: Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10 Â
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place you’re going to find a replacement for Eli, if we don’t take one of these guys we’re doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
This site is so confusing. I keep reading that you don’t have to take a QB in the first round because they can be found later on. But then at the same time I keep reading that Webb must suck because he was drafted in the 3rd round and if he was any good, he’d have been a 1st round pick.
that deal was rich enough that had the Giants been interested in trading back and grabbing a bunch of picks they could have done it. Had they just asked for a little bit more the Jets probably would have done it.
I think it's safe to deduce that short of an overwhelming trade offer the Giants aren't looking to move backwards. I'd expect the NFL strongly got that message as well.
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
RE: RE: This trade telegraphs Giants enormous interest in QBs and/or Barkley Â
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
RE: RE: RE: This trade telegraphs Giants enormous interest in QBs and/or Barkley Â
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
It sure seems that way but it's possible they talked with the Giants and DG wasn't interested in dropping out of the top 5. Maybe they've used the move up as a stepping stone to 2 if they feel they'll get jumped by Denver for the guy they really like.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This trade telegraphs Giants enormous interest in QBs and/or Barkley Â
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
It sure seems that way but it's possible they talked with the Giants and DG wasn't interested in dropping out of the top 5. Maybe they've used the move up as a stepping stone to 2 if they feel they'll get jumped by Denver for the guy they really like.
I agree, I think that DG wants to come out of the first round with one out of Darnold, Rosen, Barkley, Chubb, Allen.
Not trying to call you out, but what you posted is the usual anonymous misdirection that teams feed to journalists before the draft. Mayock's quote does not say to me that he evaluated Webb as a first or second round pick, only that you could make a case he is one of five guys who could start a game in the NFL. The other name you used was Savage. I'll give you that. One guy who put his name to it thought he could be a first round pick. One guy, who had been out of the league 5 years.
The only view any of us have about what real NFL scouts and GMS believe a guy's potential is is when they are drafted. Webb is a 3rd round pick and the fifth QB selected in that draft. It's silly to keep pretending that we probably got a first round talent in the third round without actual evidence of what he can do at the NFL level. All of us would love for the guy to be a stud player and become our QB of the future. You just can't make personnel decisions based on hope.
Not feeling called out.
But to clarify....I never (nor do I have the qualifications to say something like that) said he was a first-round talent. Some people thought he could be taken there. At least part of the reason he was not was because he was a developmental guy. First rounders are supposed to play their first year or second year max. They were afraid because he (1) hadn't played a lot under center and (2) Goff had a really rough first year coming out of the Cal offense and that hurt Webb. I have no idea if he is a "first round" talent, whatever that means. There are a lot of successful QBs in the NFL who were not first rounders. The fact that he wasn't really has no bearing on anything at this point.
The question is what is he now and what do the Giants think of him. Obviously that will be answered in part by what they do in the draft. I have no idea, but here are the thoughts from some guys that play against him on a daily basis, when asked about taking a QB at #2>>
“Don’t draft him. Don’t do it. Davis is gonna be really good in the league when it’s his time, I promise you.” Landon Collins
Asked if he thinks the Giants need to draft a quarterback with the second pick, Rodgers-Cromartie told The Post: “Nah, nah. I think he’s the guy that has the arm, and he’s studied under Eli, so I think he still has an opportunity to be that guy.” And forget about Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen. “Yes, sir.” “I’ve seen him drop it in the bucket,” Rodgers-Cromartie said, “I’ve seen the things that he’s done.”
Of course, they are teammates and have their biases and could all be BS.
Where we might differ, is I don't believe that the Giants are necessarily going to take a QB at #2 simply because Webb was a third-round draft choice. The team has had him there for a year now. They know (even though the GM and coach weren't there last year) more about him than they do about anyone in the draft. They may view one of these QBs as a generational talent - though I doubt they see 2 or 3 of these guys that way. Personally, I am OK with the Giants (1) taking a QB at #2, (2) taking Barkley at #2 or (3) trading down. Post article - ( New Window )
I can definitely see him dropping to 3rd with the Jets if he's leaning away from a QB. Then possibly even back to 5 with Denver if they want one with DG getting one of Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or Nelson.
Either way he wants one of the top tier talent guys and I don't see him dropping out of the top 5.
If he wants a QB though, I see him staying at 2 unless he really only likes one and the Browns take that guy. Then I can definitely see a trade back, but again not past 5.
I can definitely see him dropping to 3rd with the Jets if he's leaning away from a QB. Then possibly even back to 5 with Denver if they want one with DG getting one of Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or Nelson.
Either way he wants one of the top tier talent guys and I don't see him dropping out of the top 5.
If he wants a QB though, I see him staying at 2 unless he really only likes one and the Browns take that guy. Then I can definitely see a trade back, but again not past 5.
If he is decided on a QB then he won't move. If you have a conviction on a QB then you don't risk losing him by being too cute and moving down. I personally hope that they stand pat and draft either Rosen or Darnold whichever Cleveland doesn't take. The farthest I would move down is with Denver that way I would still have a shot at either Allen, Mayfield, or Nelson.
Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
What would you take from them to drop to 5? You'd probably need something from next year as well.
Any trade down for the Giants must include a 2019 1st. To go from 2 to 5 it would require Denver's 5th overall pick, 2nd round pick, 3rd, plus a 2019 1st and 2nd. I would throw in Flowers or Apple too if they wanted.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Barkley won't bust but -- YES HE MIGHT Â
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes they’re different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
You are flat out wrong. The worry about Barkley according to scouts is that he is not the interior runner you expect for his size and that he bounces too many runs to the outside. Sound familiar? That is the problem with a lot of failed backs in the NFL. I'm not saying Barkley will fail, but he surely isn't a no doubt generational talent. Believe me, if the Giants get him and he leaves a string of negative plays on the field and you see him unable to beat teams on the outside he is going to look very average. I think he will be good but in this situation you draft a QB. If we get Rosen and both he and Barkley become stars, around the time Barkley starts to flame out Rosen will be hitting the middle of his prime. So it goes with RBs vs QBs.
That is the opinion of a couple of posters here and maybe some not so very highly thought of internet draftniks. It is not the opinion of respected people in the industry. You are incredibly misinformed. The tape does not support your assertion. Barkley absolutely has the power to run between the tackles and it's on tape.
Anonymous scout on Saquon Barkley: “Saquon Barkley is better than Zeke, he’s faster than Zeke and has more twitch,” the scout said, via Yahoo! Sports. “Saquon Barkley is a different guy with an extra gear. He’ll never get caught from behind. Zeke doesn’t get caught often, but he can.”
Penn State is flying a bit under the radar in the early portion of the college football season. That should change this week as the Nittany Lions travel to take on Iowa in their first real test of the 2017 season. The scouting community will be focused on several highly rated prospects in this game, but there is one player that clearly stands above everyone else -- PSU RB Saquon Barkley.
He's widely regarded as the top runner in the country and has a unique combination of size, speed and versatility. I reached out to five NFL executives and asked them for a player comparison for Barkley. Here are their answers:
Executive 1: David Johnson
"My first thought -- Superman. Since I can't use him, I'll say David Johnson. Both of these guys are such complete, 3-down backs. Barkley's lower-body strength and explosiveness are pretty tough to match, though."
Executive 2: Kareem Hunt
"He's a better version of Kareem Hunt. Better body frame, better feet and hips, quicker, more explosive, more elusive, better hands and he's faster."
Executive 3: Corey Dillon
"I haven't fully studied him but I see some similarities to Corey Dillon. Big, fast and physical."
Executive 4: Joe Mixon
"He's a more explosive Joe Mixon. When he gets the ball in his hand, he can accelerate and separate quickly. Mixon would build speed and stall out. They both are dangerous as runners and receivers, both 3-down backs."
Executive 5: Ezekiel Elliott
"I was at the game a few years ago when Elliott and Barkley shared the same field. As impressive as Elliott was, Barkley was the better player. They have similar skill sets but Barkley is better in every area."
Summary: That's one vote apiece for Dillon, Elliott, Hunt, Johnson and Mixon.
Conclusion: This is an impressive list of names. I compared Barkley to Elliott when I studied the PSU RB this summer for my First Look series. I think he's a more talented prospect than any of the running backs in the 2017 draft class. He has the talent and upside to quickly develop into the best running back at the next level. That's not hyperbole.
Notice the comps...Zeke Elliott runs between the tackles. Corey Dillon was excellent between the tackles. Joe Mixon is a good runner between the tackles. I bolded some statements for emphasis.
Barkley is rare. As Moorhead told me, "He's a five-tool guy. He can do it all. He has speed, power, can run through you or hurdle over you. You can put him in the slot. He can return kicks. And he's worked hard to become a great pass protector."
If that all sounds too good to be true, you might think it's just an old coach wanting to help out his former player. But when talking to an NFL general manager for this story, he asked me for the highest grade on my scouting grading scale. "A 9.0," I replied. "Put that by his name."
An assistant NFL coach said at the combine about Saquon “I would punch myself in the nuts many, many, many times to be able to draft him.”
More: “You don’t screw up the special ones when you are a talent evaluator. This guy is special. Any concerns you file on him just feels like nitpicking to fill out the report.” — NFL general manager
“Every-down running back with the ability to alter the course of an offense and become a face of the franchise-type player. Barkley has the rare ability to create additional yardage through elusiveness, speed, vision and feel for space in the open field. While he has been tasked with carrying a heavy load at Penn State, their decision to limit his carries somewhat this season could help Barkley headed into his rookie season. Barkley is a buffet runner who thrives with the more plates you give him and he has a chance to become an early All-Pro no matter which team takes him.”
Daniel Jeremiah (who has him as the #1 overall prospect, like many others): "The whole 'the running back position is dead,' that's old news. When you look at the last couple years of guys that the college game has produced you're talking about some big time backs, and I think Saquon Barkley is better than all of them. And I'm talking about Todd Gurley, Ezekiel Elliott. This kid is special, he's 230 lbs, and he's got big time top speed, he can make you miss, he can help you in the passing game, you can split him out, the options are really endless with him. And then on top of that, you talk to the folks at Penn State, they tell you he's a wonderful kid with extremely high character, so, I hate the can't miss label, I hate that, but let's go ahead and use it. I don't think you can miss with this kid."
You are entirely wrong on him. The question is not should the Giants take him. It's how much in return is it going to take in a trade down for the Giants to not take him.
I await your quotes from scouts and NFL people that question his ability to run between the tackles. You'd be better off not wasting your time, because it's a silly argument. Even with defenses dedicating their entire defensive game plans to swarm Barkley last year, he still ran for nearly 1300 yards at 5.9 ypc. He is just unconscious. And the only way he busts is if he gets seriously hurt. Which could happen to any prospect. Otherwise, he'll be a top RB in the NFL right away.
2 days after Mayfields pro day and 1 day after Rosen’s. The drool is still hanging from their mouth.
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know it’s going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets don’t leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think there’s a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as he’s having trouble containing his excitement.
They might like him but what matters is if they like him the best. They certainly aren't going to tell any of these prospects who they like the best before they are on the clock on draft night.
Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place you’re going to find a replacement for Eli, if we don’t take one of these guys we’re doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
This site is so confusing. I keep reading that you don’t have to take a QB in the first round because they can be found later on. But then at the same time I keep reading that Webb must suck because he was drafted in the 3rd round and if he was any good, he’d have been a 1st round pick.
I think a lot of us fall into the trap of equating different opinions posted here to 'BBI' as a singular entity. Remember, what you read is one poster's opinion, then another. Pick any issue, you'd find different opinions all over the map if you polled the posters here. And also, the logic might be sound on both sides of the issue, even though the opinions stated might be opposing views.
are the Jets top 3, according to both the ESPN beat (Cimini) and the NYDN beat (Popper)
Cimini:
'I believe the Jets' top three are Sam Darnold, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen, in no particular order. That's based on conversations with personnel people around the league. The early sense is that the Jets don't rate Baker Mayfield in that upper-echelon category."
I think this is right. You don't give up three picks to move up for the short guy. You do it for the prototype. Link - ( New Window )
are the Jets top 3, according to both the ESPN beat (Cimini) and the NYDN beat (Popper)
Cimini:
'I believe the Jets' top three are Sam Darnold, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen, in no particular order. That's based on conversations with personnel people around the league. The early sense is that the Jets don't rate Baker Mayfield in that upper-echelon category."
I think this is right. You don't give up three picks to move up for the short guy. You do it for the prototype. Link - ( New Window )
This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made. If both the Giants and Jets select QB's it will be fun watching them develop. Obviously they will always be compared to each other.
This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made.
Unless moving up to #3 was just a precursor to moving up to #1.
True but I think Cleveland has no intentions of trading down. The Jets just gave up most of their ammunition to trade up to 3. They don't have any seconds this year or next. Unless they are willing to part with Leonard Williams or Jamal Adams as part of a package then it's not going to happen.
RE: RE: RE: Rosen, Darnold, Allen, in some order Â
This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made.
Unless moving up to #3 was just a precursor to moving up to #1.
Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes they’re different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
Bush was compared to Gayle Sayers by the talking heads. Go check YouTube. You saying I’m 100% or 1000% wrong doesn’t change history.
Like I said, the hype and ridiculous comparisons are the same.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Rosen, Darnold, Allen, in some order Â
Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
Even though I don't want to help the Jets get their next potential franchise QB, especially if they are going to pick Rosen, getting their 2019 1st round pick to move down 1 spot is enticing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Rosen, Darnold, Allen, in some order Â
Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
Even though I don't want to help the Jets get their next potential franchise QB, especially if they are going to pick Rosen, getting their 2019 1st round pick to move down 1 spot is enticing.
Well to me they're already going to get their next franchise QB at 3 so I look at it more of us getting help moving forward than helping them get a QB.
I can't help but think the same guy making this pick for them thought drafting Hackenburgh was good and maybe we can fleece him for his #1 next year and he screws this pick up as well.
All that of course going on the assumption DG doesn't love a QB at 2.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Rosen, Darnold, Allen, in some order Â
Well to me they're already going to get their next franchise QB at 3 so I look at it more of us getting help moving forward than helping them get a QB.
I can't help but think the same guy making this pick for them thought drafting Hackenburgh was good and maybe we can fleece him for his #1 next year and he screws this pick up as well.
All that of course going on the assumption DG doesn't love a QB at 2.
Well I would much rather see the Jets pin their hopes on Allen at 3 rather than Rosen at 2. Now if the Jets said that they will take Allen with the 2nd pick leaving Rosen for the Giants at 3 then I would be thrilled to make that move. Hell I would throw in Flowers.
are many QBs that will be available later on, including Jackson, Rudolph, Falk, etc. But the Jets have tried that solution many time, most recently with Hackenburg. They now want one of the "big three." I can't blame them, but I still doubt whether any are worth the #2 pick.
My guess is the Giants take a QB or Barkley unless they receive an incredible offer to trade down, which is certainly possible.
Bush was compared to Gayle Sayers by the talking heads. Go check YouTube. You saying I’m 100% or 1000% wrong doesn’t change history.
Like I said, the hype and ridiculous comparisons are the same.
I've checked Youtube. You know what they also said about Bush? They actually DID question his ability to run between the tackles, something that actual draft experts in media and NFL scouts and execs DON'T do with Barkley. They questioned his ability to be a bellcow. The thinking was get him the ball 10-15 times a game and he can change the game. Get him out in space, use him as a receiver and a returner, wherever you can get him in space. They didn't say he could run it 20-25 times a game because he was a smaller back that didn't even have that role on USC. LenDale White was the hammer in that backfield. Just because Bush was overhyped doesn't mean Barkley is. Was LaDainian Tomlinson hyped a lot? You bet your ass he was. Was Marshall Faulk? Absolutely. And those guys were Hall of Famers. And there were probably those espousing dumb opinions about why they wouldn't be good just because the Jets drafted Blair Thomas #2 overall and he ended up not being any good.
Barkley and Bush are as far apart as Calvin Johnson and Ike Hilliard.
Saquon Barkley played in 38 college football games.
He failed to get to 100 yards rushing in 23 of them.
(61%)
That is not even close to a good measure of the kind of impact he had on games.
100 yards is a nice round number, also, but it is overblown as to analyzing a successful game. And there is also some nonsense reasoning in here. I for one love how they included the very first game he played in at PSU and got 1 carry. A few games later got 9 touches against San Diego State as a freshman, which he turned into 84 yards and a TD.
And I'm sure they dismiss the 99 yards rushing (on 12 carries) against Ohio State as a sophomore...but that sucks because he didn't get to 100, right?
He also has 17 multi-touchdown games, not including a game in which he returned a kick for a TD and threw a TD pass in the same game.
He has 23 games in which he went over 100 yards from scrimmage. Not counting a 99 yard game, 96 yard game, and a 92 yard game. Pretty good when some of these games he only played about 1 half of football. He has 10 games where he went for 190 yards or more from scrimmage (ok, I included a 189-yard game in there). He has a 300+ yard scrimmage game against Iowa.
What he has accomplished is extraordinary given average QB play, mediocre line play, and being the focal point of the defense for much of his career. In those 37 games he scored 53 TDs and threw for another.
You can go through all kinds of statistical gymnastics to try and paint a dishonest picture about what kind of talent he is, but in the end, like he will NFL defenders, he's going to embarrass you.
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? I’d say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Let’s not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Eli’s replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
Mike it might be a 50% chance of success if we go QB
But if we don't there will be a 100% certainty we will be unsuccessful.
That's not true, Stan in LA has doubts abou...
...oh. Right.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes they’re different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
You are flat out wrong. The worry about Barkley according to scouts is that he is not the interior runner you expect for his size and that he bounces too many runs to the outside. Sound familiar? That is the problem with a lot of failed backs in the NFL. I'm not saying Barkley will fail, but he surely isn't a no doubt generational talent. Believe me, if the Giants get him and he leaves a string of negative plays on the field and you see him unable to beat teams on the outside he is going to look very average. I think he will be good but in this situation you draft a QB. If we get Rosen and both he and Barkley become stars, around the time Barkley starts to flame out Rosen will be hitting the middle of his prime. So it goes with RBs vs QBs.
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? I’d say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Let’s not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Eli’s replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
QB is a need. Eli won’t play forever.
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We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
But they could trade the pick to a team that does covet Rosen if they are confident the could get their QB with the #3 overall (if they were to trade down with the Jets) or the #4 overall. They only need to have two QBs other than Rosen on their wish list for them to feel confident in trading down. Unless they believe there is a chance that neither the Jets or Giants would select Rosen. Like I said, in 2004 the Chargers were able to demand the #4 overall pick, a third round pick, and future 1st and 5th round picks of the Giants and still come away with the QB of their choice. Gettleman needs to avoid a repeat of that, but he also needs to avoid missing out on the QB of his choice, if he prefers one clearly above the rest.
This logic would be applicable if we were dealing with the old Browns management who ran the team like they were playing Madden. Dorsey is an old school football guy who understands the importance of having your franchise QB in place.I don't see the Browns trading away their #1 for anything less than all of a teams' draft picks & even then, it wouldn't be a slam dunk. They have their #4 & 2 early #2's,why would they move? It's the same reason another old school football guy,weened under Ernie Acorsi,Dave Gettleman, takes a QB w/#2 Al McGuire once said "Paralysis by over analysis" is a dangerous thing.The NFL draft allows pundits & draftniks to do this for 4 long months when sometimes the most logical answer is also the easiest one!
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In comment 13871364 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
was that Webb was a 3rd round pick and some had him rated even higher than that. Big difference between Webb and a guy like Keenum.
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
"Davis Webb's got a live arm. He drops it in the bucket. Moves well enough, quick release, big arm. He's one of the five quarterbacks where you can make a case in this draft that they can start a game in the NFL and be a quarterback." -- Mike Mayock
During the fall, some team sources told WalterFootball.com that there were some area scouts for the west coast who had a higher grade on Davis Webb than they had given to Jared Goff a year earlier. While Goff was the No. 1-overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, there were teams that had him graded much later and didn't like him as a prospect. Still, it was nice acclaim for Webb to be graded higher than Goff and validated Webb status as am NFL prospect.
Davis Webb: Another QB Enters the Round 1 Conversation "Six weeks before the draft, Webb is a legitimate second-round candidate, and it’s feasible that, come the last weekend in April, he will be billed as someone’s quarterback of the future." SportsIllustrated
Senior Bowl executive director Phil Savage reports that "[t]he [Cal QB] Davis Webb talk is legit as far as [the] first round."
Savage relays that he has "had several NFL people tell [him] that [Webb] is the guy they would want to coach." We have heard a consistent bubbling of rumor around the possibility of Webb landing in the first round as the pre-draft process hits its stretch run. At the end of March, Pete Prisco of CBS Sports likewise heard that steam was picking up toward a Day 1 selection. Webb, himself, has said that teams in the double-digits have told him he is a first-round talent. If he isn't swept off the board by the end of Round 1, he will almost certainly find an NFL home early in Round 2.
An NFL scout says Cal QB Davis Webb "has Dak-like intangibles."
Webb's stock is surging at the right time. NFL Network's Ian Rapoport "wouldn't be surprised to see a team trade back into round 1" for Webb, a sentiment we've read on multiple occasions over the past 10 days. Draft Analyst's Tony Pauline reported Tuesday that if the Browns don't take UNC's Mitchell Trubisky in Round 1, Webb is "likely to be the target" with the No. 33 selection.
One NFL personnel executive believes that Clemson QB Deshaun Watson and Cal QB Davis Webb will be the only quarterbacks selected on Day 1 of the draft.
Well that would be a weird combo. Color us surprised if UNC QB Mitchell Trubisky is still available at the end of the first round. "I am sticking to my Webb guns," the executive insisted. "He's the second-best QB in this class. I have read the Trubisky and Mahomes buzz. Not sure if I believe it." This came about from an informal poll of five insiders by NFL Media's Daniel Jeremiah to gauge just how many quarterbacks might be taken in Round 1. The most optimistic executive forwarded the possibility of four gunslingers going off the board by the end of April 27. Three is probably the safest bet.
The MMQB's Albert Breer mentioned Cal's Davis Webb as one of five QBs who has a chance of being selected in the first round.
We would be more than stunned if this happens. Webb is not close to being ready for the NFL. He was arguably the best quarterback at the Senior Bowl... but the competition was less than ideal. Webb has a big arm, but has only played out of the Air Raid system, a system with a playbook of five to seven concepts that passers master (see Jared Goff). Even if it is not a first round selection, Webb seems destined for a second day pick.
Great job. You posted journalists repeating stuff they were told weeks before the draft about a guy "in the conversation" for being in the first round. However, every scout and GM they talked to worked for a team that passed on him in the first round. Then every one of them passed in him again in the second round. Then many of the passed on him again in the 3rd round...
So again, which non-journalist (Mayock didn't put a round on him in what you posted) had Webb evaluated as a first round pick at the time of the draft?
Hopefully Cleveland wants Darnold or Allen and would be worried that either the Giants or another team the Giants trade with after jets take Rosen, would grab the QB they want.
I'm also hoping that Cleveland decides not to get cute since they fucked things up so badly the last few years.
The only view any of us have about what real NFL scouts and GMS believe a guy's potential is is when they are drafted. Webb is a 3rd round pick and the fifth QB selected in that draft. It's silly to keep pretending that we probably got a first round talent in the third round without actual evidence of what he can do at the NFL level. All of us would love for the guy to be a stud player and become our QB of the future. You just can't make personnel decisions based on hope.
2. Denver takes a QB
3. Jets take a QB
4. Browns take Chubb
5. Giants take Barkley
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know it’s going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets don’t leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think there’s a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as he’s having trouble containing his excitement.
At #5 you still get one of Rosen, Darnold, Barkley, Nelson, Fitzpatrick or Chubb. If they like Mayfield or Allen as a franchise QB, it is even better. At #12 they stockpile more picks, but the premiere talent in the draft is off the board.
Now if they have a conviction on someone like Jackson, Laulette or Rudolph, then trading with Buffalo is an option as it allows them to still get their QB and more picks. Need to trust Shula and Shurmur to know not only who is better, but how significant the delta is between all of these guys.
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place you’re going to find a replacement for Eli, if we don’t take one of these guys we’re doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know it’s going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets don’t leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think there’s a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as he’s having trouble containing his excitement.
I see any possibility of the Browns trading their 1st pick as slim to none. But I agree I think the Jets are hot after Rosen or Mayfield or Allen. Darnold seems like a Browns pick at 1.
2. Denver takes a QB
3. Jets take a QB
4. Browns take Chubb
5. Giants take Barkley
Well I don't know about the Giants/Denver thing at 2 but according to some Browns forums/fan sites there seems to be interest from both the team and fans in Chubb at 4, and going RB at the top of the 2nd Rd.
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In comment 13871734 Mike in NJ said:
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place you’re going to find a replacement for Eli, if we don’t take one of these guys we’re doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
This site is so confusing. I keep reading that you don’t have to take a QB in the first round because they can be found later on. But then at the same time I keep reading that Webb must suck because he was drafted in the 3rd round and if he was any good, he’d have been a 1st round pick.
Ken O'Brian
Mark Sanchez
Tim Tebo
4 Jets....thought it was funny
I think it's safe to deduce that short of an overwhelming trade offer the Giants aren't looking to move backwards. I'd expect the NFL strongly got that message as well.
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
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I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
It sure seems that way but it's possible they talked with the Giants and DG wasn't interested in dropping out of the top 5. Maybe they've used the move up as a stepping stone to 2 if they feel they'll get jumped by Denver for the guy they really like.
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In comment 13872398 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
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I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
It sure seems that way but it's possible they talked with the Giants and DG wasn't interested in dropping out of the top 5. Maybe they've used the move up as a stepping stone to 2 if they feel they'll get jumped by Denver for the guy they really like.
I agree, I think that DG wants to come out of the first round with one out of Darnold, Rosen, Barkley, Chubb, Allen.
The only view any of us have about what real NFL scouts and GMS believe a guy's potential is is when they are drafted. Webb is a 3rd round pick and the fifth QB selected in that draft. It's silly to keep pretending that we probably got a first round talent in the third round without actual evidence of what he can do at the NFL level. All of us would love for the guy to be a stud player and become our QB of the future. You just can't make personnel decisions based on hope.
Not feeling called out.
But to clarify....I never (nor do I have the qualifications to say something like that) said he was a first-round talent. Some people thought he could be taken there. At least part of the reason he was not was because he was a developmental guy. First rounders are supposed to play their first year or second year max. They were afraid because he (1) hadn't played a lot under center and (2) Goff had a really rough first year coming out of the Cal offense and that hurt Webb. I have no idea if he is a "first round" talent, whatever that means. There are a lot of successful QBs in the NFL who were not first rounders. The fact that he wasn't really has no bearing on anything at this point.
The question is what is he now and what do the Giants think of him. Obviously that will be answered in part by what they do in the draft. I have no idea, but here are the thoughts from some guys that play against him on a daily basis, when asked about taking a QB at #2>>
“Don’t draft him. Don’t do it. Davis is gonna be really good in the league when it’s his time, I promise you.” Landon Collins
Asked if he thinks the Giants need to draft a quarterback with the second pick, Rodgers-Cromartie told The Post: “Nah, nah. I think he’s the guy that has the arm, and he’s studied under Eli, so I think he still has an opportunity to be that guy.” And forget about Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen. “Yes, sir.” “I’ve seen him drop it in the bucket,” Rodgers-Cromartie said, “I’ve seen the things that he’s done.”
Of course, they are teammates and have their biases and could all be BS.
Where we might differ, is I don't believe that the Giants are necessarily going to take a QB at #2 simply because Webb was a third-round draft choice. The team has had him there for a year now. They know (even though the GM and coach weren't there last year) more about him than they do about anyone in the draft. They may view one of these QBs as a generational talent - though I doubt they see 2 or 3 of these guys that way. Personally, I am OK with the Giants (1) taking a QB at #2, (2) taking Barkley at #2 or (3) trading down.
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I can definitely see him dropping to 3rd with the Jets if he's leaning away from a QB. Then possibly even back to 5 with Denver if they want one with DG getting one of Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or Nelson.
Either way he wants one of the top tier talent guys and I don't see him dropping out of the top 5.
If he wants a QB though, I see him staying at 2 unless he really only likes one and the Browns take that guy. Then I can definitely see a trade back, but again not past 5.
I can definitely see him dropping to 3rd with the Jets if he's leaning away from a QB. Then possibly even back to 5 with Denver if they want one with DG getting one of Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or Nelson.
Either way he wants one of the top tier talent guys and I don't see him dropping out of the top 5.
If he wants a QB though, I see him staying at 2 unless he really only likes one and the Browns take that guy. Then I can definitely see a trade back, but again not past 5.
If he is decided on a QB then he won't move. If you have a conviction on a QB then you don't risk losing him by being too cute and moving down. I personally hope that they stand pat and draft either Rosen or Darnold whichever Cleveland doesn't take. The farthest I would move down is with Denver that way I would still have a shot at either Allen, Mayfield, or Nelson.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
Round 2: 40th overall
Round 3: 71st overall
Round 3: 99th overall (compensatory)
Round 4: 106th overall
Round 4: 109th overall (via 49ers)
Round 5: 142nd overall
Round 5: 163rd overall (via Falcons)
Round 6: 182nd overall
Round 7: 225th overall
What would you take from them to drop to 5? You'd probably need something from next year as well.
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Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
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Round 1: 5th overall
Round 2: 40th overall
Round 3: 71st overall
Round 3: 99th overall (compensatory)
Round 4: 106th overall
Round 4: 109th overall (via 49ers)
Round 5: 142nd overall
Round 5: 163rd overall (via Falcons)
Round 6: 182nd overall
Round 7: 225th overall
What would you take from them to drop to 5? You'd probably need something from next year as well.
Any trade down for the Giants must include a 2019 1st. To go from 2 to 5 it would require Denver's 5th overall pick, 2nd round pick, 3rd, plus a 2019 1st and 2nd. I would throw in Flowers or Apple too if they wanted.
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The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes they’re different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
You are flat out wrong. The worry about Barkley according to scouts is that he is not the interior runner you expect for his size and that he bounces too many runs to the outside. Sound familiar? That is the problem with a lot of failed backs in the NFL. I'm not saying Barkley will fail, but he surely isn't a no doubt generational talent. Believe me, if the Giants get him and he leaves a string of negative plays on the field and you see him unable to beat teams on the outside he is going to look very average. I think he will be good but in this situation you draft a QB. If we get Rosen and both he and Barkley become stars, around the time Barkley starts to flame out Rosen will be hitting the middle of his prime. So it goes with RBs vs QBs.
That is the opinion of a couple of posters here and maybe some not so very highly thought of internet draftniks. It is not the opinion of respected people in the industry. You are incredibly misinformed. The tape does not support your assertion. Barkley absolutely has the power to run between the tackles and it's on tape.
Anonymous scout on Saquon Barkley: “Saquon Barkley is better than Zeke, he’s faster than Zeke and has more twitch,” the scout said, via Yahoo! Sports. “Saquon Barkley is a different guy with an extra gear. He’ll never get caught from behind. Zeke doesn’t get caught often, but he can.”
Link: https://sportsnaut.com/2017/09/anonymous-nfl-scout-saquon-barkley-better-ezekiel-elliott/
Here is a list of quotes from Daniel Jeremiah...go to link and watch Jeremiah's video on him as well:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000848017/article/ask-5-whats-best-nfl-comp-for-penn-states-saquon-barkley
He's widely regarded as the top runner in the country and has a unique combination of size, speed and versatility. I reached out to five NFL executives and asked them for a player comparison for Barkley. Here are their answers:
Executive 1: David Johnson
"My first thought -- Superman. Since I can't use him, I'll say David Johnson. Both of these guys are such complete, 3-down backs. Barkley's lower-body strength and explosiveness are pretty tough to match, though."
Executive 2: Kareem Hunt
"He's a better version of Kareem Hunt. Better body frame, better feet and hips, quicker, more explosive, more elusive, better hands and he's faster."
Executive 3: Corey Dillon
"I haven't fully studied him but I see some similarities to Corey Dillon. Big, fast and physical."
Executive 4: Joe Mixon
"He's a more explosive Joe Mixon. When he gets the ball in his hand, he can accelerate and separate quickly. Mixon would build speed and stall out. They both are dangerous as runners and receivers, both 3-down backs."
Executive 5: Ezekiel Elliott
"I was at the game a few years ago when Elliott and Barkley shared the same field. As impressive as Elliott was, Barkley was the better player. They have similar skill sets but Barkley is better in every area."
Summary: That's one vote apiece for Dillon, Elliott, Hunt, Johnson and Mixon.
Conclusion: This is an impressive list of names. I compared Barkley to Elliott when I studied the PSU RB this summer for my First Look series. I think he's a more talented prospect than any of the running backs in the 2017 draft class. He has the talent and upside to quickly develop into the best running back at the next level. That's not hyperbole.
Notice the comps...Zeke Elliott runs between the tackles. Corey Dillon was excellent between the tackles. Joe Mixon is a good runner between the tackles. I bolded some statements for emphasis.
More:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2750473-matt-millers-scouting-notebook-in-a-year-of-qbs-saquon-barkley-is-a-unicorn
Barkley is rare. As Moorhead told me, "He's a five-tool guy. He can do it all. He has speed, power, can run through you or hurdle over you. You can put him in the slot. He can return kicks. And he's worked hard to become a great pass protector."
If that all sounds too good to be true, you might think it's just an old coach wanting to help out his former player. But when talking to an NFL general manager for this story, he asked me for the highest grade on my scouting grading scale. "A 9.0," I replied. "Put that by his name."
An assistant NFL coach said at the combine about Saquon “I would punch myself in the nuts many, many, many times to be able to draft him.”
More: “You don’t screw up the special ones when you are a talent evaluator. This guy is special. Any concerns you file on him just feels like nitpicking to fill out the report.” — NFL general manager
“Every-down running back with the ability to alter the course of an offense and become a face of the franchise-type player. Barkley has the rare ability to create additional yardage through elusiveness, speed, vision and feel for space in the open field. While he has been tasked with carrying a heavy load at Penn State, their decision to limit his carries somewhat this season could help Barkley headed into his rookie season. Barkley is a buffet runner who thrives with the more plates you give him and he has a chance to become an early All-Pro no matter which team takes him.”
Link: http://www.centredaily.com/sports/article201570244.html
Daniel Jeremiah (who has him as the #1 overall prospect, like many others): "The whole 'the running back position is dead,' that's old news. When you look at the last couple years of guys that the college game has produced you're talking about some big time backs, and I think Saquon Barkley is better than all of them. And I'm talking about Todd Gurley, Ezekiel Elliott. This kid is special, he's 230 lbs, and he's got big time top speed, he can make you miss, he can help you in the passing game, you can split him out, the options are really endless with him. And then on top of that, you talk to the folks at Penn State, they tell you he's a wonderful kid with extremely high character, so, I hate the can't miss label, I hate that, but let's go ahead and use it. I don't think you can miss with this kid."
Link: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap3000000909792/Daniel-Jeremiah-Saquon-Barkley-is-a-can-t-miss-prospect
You're trying to say this guy can't run between the tackles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGWWjkwMWn8
Btw, the program record was 390 by a lineman.
You are entirely wrong on him. The question is not should the Giants take him. It's how much in return is it going to take in a trade down for the Giants to not take him.
I await your quotes from scouts and NFL people that question his ability to run between the tackles. You'd be better off not wasting your time, because it's a silly argument. Even with defenses dedicating their entire defensive game plans to swarm Barkley last year, he still ran for nearly 1300 yards at 5.9 ypc. He is just unconscious. And the only way he busts is if he gets seriously hurt. Which could happen to any prospect. Otherwise, he'll be a top RB in the NFL right away.
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know it’s going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets don’t leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think there’s a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as he’s having trouble containing his excitement.
They might like him but what matters is if they like him the best. They certainly aren't going to tell any of these prospects who they like the best before they are on the clock on draft night.
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Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
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Round 1: 5th overall
Round 2: 40th overall
Round 3: 71st overall
Round 3: 99th overall (compensatory)
Round 4: 106th overall
Round 4: 109th overall (via 49ers)
Round 5: 142nd overall
Round 5: 163rd overall (via Falcons)
Round 6: 182nd overall
Round 7: 225th overall
What would you take from them to drop to 5? You'd probably need something from next year as well.
I'd start with their #1 next year, then one of their 3's and either their 2 from this year or next. Preferably this year's 2.
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In comment 13872192 Milton said:
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In comment 13871734 Mike in NJ said:
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place you’re going to find a replacement for Eli, if we don’t take one of these guys we’re doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
This site is so confusing. I keep reading that you don’t have to take a QB in the first round because they can be found later on. But then at the same time I keep reading that Webb must suck because he was drafted in the 3rd round and if he was any good, he’d have been a 1st round pick.
I think a lot of us fall into the trap of equating different opinions posted here to 'BBI' as a singular entity. Remember, what you read is one poster's opinion, then another. Pick any issue, you'd find different opinions all over the map if you polled the posters here. And also, the logic might be sound on both sides of the issue, even though the opinions stated might be opposing views.
Cimini:
'I believe the Jets' top three are Sam Darnold, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen, in no particular order. That's based on conversations with personnel people around the league. The early sense is that the Jets don't rate Baker Mayfield in that upper-echelon category."
I think this is right. You don't give up three picks to move up for the short guy. You do it for the prototype.
Link - ( New Window )
Cimini:
'I believe the Jets' top three are Sam Darnold, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen, in no particular order. That's based on conversations with personnel people around the league. The early sense is that the Jets don't rate Baker Mayfield in that upper-echelon category."
I think this is right. You don't give up three picks to move up for the short guy. You do it for the prototype. Link - ( New Window )
This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made. If both the Giants and Jets select QB's it will be fun watching them develop. Obviously they will always be compared to each other.
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This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made.
Unless moving up to #3 was just a precursor to moving up to #1.
True but I think Cleveland has no intentions of trading down. The Jets just gave up most of their ammunition to trade up to 3. They don't have any seconds this year or next. Unless they are willing to part with Leonard Williams or Jamal Adams as part of a package then it's not going to happen.
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This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made.
Unless moving up to #3 was just a precursor to moving up to #1.
Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
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In comment 13871577 allstarjim said:
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In comment 13871264 bluepepper said:
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he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes they’re different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
Bush was compared to Gayle Sayers by the talking heads. Go check YouTube. You saying I’m 100% or 1000% wrong doesn’t change history.
Like I said, the hype and ridiculous comparisons are the same.
Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
Even though I don't want to help the Jets get their next potential franchise QB, especially if they are going to pick Rosen, getting their 2019 1st round pick to move down 1 spot is enticing.
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Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
Even though I don't want to help the Jets get their next potential franchise QB, especially if they are going to pick Rosen, getting their 2019 1st round pick to move down 1 spot is enticing.
Well to me they're already going to get their next franchise QB at 3 so I look at it more of us getting help moving forward than helping them get a QB.
I can't help but think the same guy making this pick for them thought drafting Hackenburgh was good and maybe we can fleece him for his #1 next year and he screws this pick up as well.
All that of course going on the assumption DG doesn't love a QB at 2.
Well to me they're already going to get their next franchise QB at 3 so I look at it more of us getting help moving forward than helping them get a QB.
I can't help but think the same guy making this pick for them thought drafting Hackenburgh was good and maybe we can fleece him for his #1 next year and he screws this pick up as well.
All that of course going on the assumption DG doesn't love a QB at 2.
Well I would much rather see the Jets pin their hopes on Allen at 3 rather than Rosen at 2. Now if the Jets said that they will take Allen with the 2nd pick leaving Rosen for the Giants at 3 then I would be thrilled to make that move. Hell I would throw in Flowers.
My guess is the Giants take a QB or Barkley unless they receive an incredible offer to trade down, which is certainly possible.
Bush was compared to Gayle Sayers by the talking heads. Go check YouTube. You saying I’m 100% or 1000% wrong doesn’t change history.
Like I said, the hype and ridiculous comparisons are the same.
I've checked Youtube. You know what they also said about Bush? They actually DID question his ability to run between the tackles, something that actual draft experts in media and NFL scouts and execs DON'T do with Barkley. They questioned his ability to be a bellcow. The thinking was get him the ball 10-15 times a game and he can change the game. Get him out in space, use him as a receiver and a returner, wherever you can get him in space. They didn't say he could run it 20-25 times a game because he was a smaller back that didn't even have that role on USC. LenDale White was the hammer in that backfield. Just because Bush was overhyped doesn't mean Barkley is. Was LaDainian Tomlinson hyped a lot? You bet your ass he was. Was Marshall Faulk? Absolutely. And those guys were Hall of Famers. And there were probably those espousing dumb opinions about why they wouldn't be good just because the Jets drafted Blair Thomas #2 overall and he ended up not being any good.
Barkley and Bush are as far apart as Calvin Johnson and Ike Hilliard.
He failed to get to 100 yards rushing in 23 of them.
(61%)
He failed to get to 100 yards rushing in 23 of them.
(61%)
That is not even close to a good measure of the kind of impact he had on games.
100 yards is a nice round number, also, but it is overblown as to analyzing a successful game. And there is also some nonsense reasoning in here. I for one love how they included the very first game he played in at PSU and got 1 carry. A few games later got 9 touches against San Diego State as a freshman, which he turned into 84 yards and a TD.
And I'm sure they dismiss the 99 yards rushing (on 12 carries) against Ohio State as a sophomore...but that sucks because he didn't get to 100, right?
He also has 17 multi-touchdown games, not including a game in which he returned a kick for a TD and threw a TD pass in the same game.
He has 23 games in which he went over 100 yards from scrimmage. Not counting a 99 yard game, 96 yard game, and a 92 yard game. Pretty good when some of these games he only played about 1 half of football. He has 10 games where he went for 190 yards or more from scrimmage (ok, I included a 189-yard game in there). He has a 300+ yard scrimmage game against Iowa.
What he has accomplished is extraordinary given average QB play, mediocre line play, and being the focal point of the defense for much of his career. In those 37 games he scored 53 TDs and threw for another.
You can go through all kinds of statistical gymnastics to try and paint a dishonest picture about what kind of talent he is, but in the end, like he will NFL defenders, he's going to embarrass you.