Puts the pressure on Cleveland to go QB at 1 or if they go Barkley at 1 to try and read up from 4 to 2 to get their QB giving us a chance at keeping a top 5 pick and havin 3 picks in the top 5 of round two.
Also makes Buffalo have to give up more in a possible trade up with us to get their QB. Today is a good day.
they better sound out the smoke signals. The Jets can easily move up to #1 to jump us. Cleveland with #3 and #4 can still get their guy and deal further.
they now get the QB they want at #1, and if we do end up trading out (or staying put and taking a QB), they don't have to worry much anymore about a non-qb at #3.
They get to take their QB at #1 and Barkley at #4.
This makes the Browns getting Barkley at 4 a real strong possibility
Over a month before the draft and things are getting crazy already. If the Giants stay put, the Jets will be holding their breath hoping their guy doesn't get snagged before they can grab him.
they now get the QB they want at #1, and if we do end up trading out (or staying put and taking a QB), they don't have to worry much anymore about a non-qb at #3.
They get to take their QB at #1 and Barkley at #4.
Browns are getting to get healthy real fast with this draft.
The Giants can pretty much hold another QB-desperate team at ransom for the #2 pick. Remember when Mike Ditka sold his entire draft to get Ricky Williams (not even a QB)? That's what the Giants could demand
they now get the QB they want at #1, and if we do end up trading out (or staying put and taking a QB), they don't have to worry much anymore about a non-qb at #3.
They get to take their QB at #1 and Barkley at #4.
in this draft and the Jets are assured of getting one. They don't have to do anything more. And they would really be stripping themselves of picks if they move up again.
if the Broncos give DG a call soon. Jets just jumped them in the QB race, and if they want one of Allen, Darnold or Rosen, no guarantee that they're anymore.
How does this change anything for the Giants other than a) make their pick more valuable for QB needy teams or b) force CLE to more strongly consider a QB leaving Barkley for the Giants.
Quote:
Jason McIntyre
Verified account @jasonrmcintyre
13m13 minutes ago
The Jets just backed the Giants into a corner. LOVE IT.
Browns want Saquon at 1?
Giants have to take a QB at 2, and deal with all the Eli drama.
HAHAHAHAHA, Jets baby, well done!
How does this change anything for the Giants other than a) make their pick more valuable for QB needy teams or b) force CLE to more strongly consider a QB leaving Barkley for the Giants.
Quote:
Jason McIntyre
Verified account @jasonrmcintyre
13m13 minutes ago
The Jets just backed the Giants into a corner. LOVE IT.
Browns want Saquon at 1?
Giants have to take a QB at 2, and deal with all the Eli drama.
HAHAHAHAHA, Jets baby, well done!
Sam Darnold in play for the Jets?
He's been a putz for a while. You should hit the unfollow button.
open avenue for a team targeting one of the top QB's. Giants can get a massive haul. Barkley has to be first ballot hof good for us to use this pick on him.
You either have to have a massive conviction on the QB who will be there at #2 or you now accept the massive trade deal some team is going to give you.
This trade will further motivate the Browns to take a qb -
The #Jets explored all options for this trade... including possibly going up to No. 1. In the end, they settled on No. 3. ... Meanwhile, the #Colts fielded calls from other QB-needy teams, but felt good about moving to No. 6 and dealing with the #Jets.
32 replies 146 retweets 297 likes
That could mean the approach DG but the price was too high OR the Giants are staying put regardless.
open avenue for a team targeting one of the top QB's. Giants can get a massive haul. Barkley has to be first ballot hof good for us to use this pick on him.
Everyone looking to trade out. Wouldn't you want a blue chip player? Wether it's a qb or Barkley? We trade down to 12 then we have no chance at our own blue chip player.
RE: If all it took was two second rounders, surprised buffalo didn't do
Because the Jets' 1st (#6) and both 2018 2nds (#37 and #49) are higher picks than the Bills' picks in the 1st (#12 and #22) and 2nd (#53 and #56), respectively. The Colts may well have a top tier of six players on their board so they feel confident that they'll still get one of the premium talents in the draft, and they're still in position to trade down again if one of the QBs is sitting there at #6.
So I don't think the "all it took" with respect to the Jets would necessarily apply to the Bills.
Then trade back to number 12 so the Bills get their pick.we end up with a kings ransom of picks and away we go. Build for now and for the future. I really see us now trading back not once but twice.
Would the Jets offer their one next year to move up to two?
this puts in an even better position. Someone who wants a QB bad enough will be blowing Gettleman's phone up soon. Denver, Buffalo. Lets do this DG.
That's as far as I'd want to trade back. If three QBs go 1-2-3, that most likely (unless Cleve trades out of 4 which I doubt since they already have a ton of picks) leaves us at 5 with one of Barkley,Chubb,Nelson or Fitzpatrick. Plus whatever picks they get from Denver.
I can live with that if DG doesn't love a QB at 2.
The #Jets explored all options for this trade... including possibly going up to No. 1. In the end, they settled on No. 3. ... Meanwhile, the #Colts fielded calls from other QB-needy teams, but felt good about moving to No. 6 and dealing with the #Jets.
32 replies 146 retweets 297 likes
That could mean the approach DG but the price was too high OR the Giants are staying put regardless.
Or Gettleman knows the price will only go up the longer he waits, including on the clock on draft day.
open avenue for a team targeting one of the top QB's. Giants can get a massive haul. Barkley has to be first ballot hof good for us to use this pick on him.
or we take a QB. Ever think of that?
They are NOT going to take the 2nd best QB on the board...one which most likely either has a ton of concussion issues, can't hit the side of a barn, or is Baker Mayfield.
The only play for the Giants is to draft Barkley or trade down. If they trade down, it had better be a massive deal in order to pass up Barkley. My guess is they don't get that.
Everyone looking to trade out. Wouldn't you want a blue chip player? Wether it's a qb or Barkley? We trade down to 12 then we have no chance at our own blue chip player.
Because if you don't have a conviction on a QB or feel multiple premium picks are more valuable than a RB.
The #Jets explored all options for this trade... including possibly going up to No. 1. In the end, they settled on No. 3. ... Meanwhile, the #Colts fielded calls from other QB-needy teams, but felt good about moving to No. 6 and dealing with the #Jets.
32 replies 146 retweets 297 likes
That could mean the approach DG but the price was too high OR the Giants are staying put regardless.
Or Gettleman knows the price will only go up the longer he waits, including on the clock on draft day.
The Jets can easily move up to #1 to jump us. Cleveland with #3 and #4 can still get their guy and deal further.
I don't think they have nearly enough to trade up again.Just next year's first rounder isn't going to get it done.
This is the Jets. The same team that had to ensure that McCown would be starter just for him to sign a below-market deal. If they have 1 player (Rosen), they can sell next year's draft capital to do what it would take. The Jets should be a lesson for all as to how long a franchise can wallow in QB Hell with mediocre talent. This is no time for them to get cute. If they sense that Rosen won't be there for them, they will do whatever it takes. My assumption is that the Giants won't deliver the Jets franchise QB to them by swapping out picks so that leaves the Browns.
Everyone looking to trade out. Wouldn't you want a blue chip player? Wether it's a qb or Barkley? We trade down to 12 then we have no chance at our own blue chip player.
Because if you don't have a conviction on a QB or feel multiple premium picks are more valuable than a RB.
Look, the Giants need a ton of help.
Eric, the Giants also need a QB just like these teams desperately trying to get in position to draft one.
Everyone looking to trade out. Wouldn't you want a blue chip player? Wether it's a qb or Barkley? We trade down to 12 then we have no chance at our own blue chip player.
Because if you don't have a conviction on a QB or feel multiple premium picks are more valuable than a RB.
Look, the Giants need a ton of help.
Eric, gun to head, what would you do? Do you roll the dice with Eli and Webb? Or do you take a potential future at 2? I just hate to be stuck in the 90s again if Webb doesn't work out.
Everyone looking to trade out. Wouldn't you want a blue chip player? Wether it's a qb or Barkley? We trade down to 12 then we have no chance at our own blue chip player.
Because if you don't have a conviction on a QB or feel multiple premium picks are more valuable than a RB.
Look, the Giants need a ton of help.
Eric, the Giants also need a QB just like these teams desperately trying to get in position to draft one.
Just because you do doesn't mean you take whatever scraps are left to you. Concussion history? No thanks. Accuracy issues? No thanks. Baker? no thanks.
The only play for the Giants is barkley or trade down for a massive haul...and it better be massive.
I think this pretty much confirms the Giants are taking a QB
What a shitty haul for the Colts. If this is the going rate don't trade. Quality is almost always better than quantity. Just stop outsmarting yourself and grab a QB or Barkley. People are obsessed with trades that usually work in the favor of the team trading up. Take the franchise altering player rather than hope to get a bunch of good players. This isn't hard. Take the fucking QB. Don't be the Browns.
open avenue for a team targeting one of the top QB's. Giants can get a massive haul. Barkley has to be first ballot hof good for us to use this pick on him.
or we take a QB. Ever think of that?
Yes, in fact I hope that's what we do. I was making the comment for the Barkley crowd. IMO it makes little sense to take him now since if he turns out to be anything less than an all-time great RB then he's not worth this #2. We need to take a franchise QB or an all-time great at another position to pass up the trade offers we're going to get for this pick.
But right now, I think you either take the QB or trade back. I love Barkley, but if the Giants can get a massive trade deal out of the pick, I think they have to seriously consider taking it.
My thought process has always been this: the Giants will probably not be in this spot again for decades. I don't see the game-changing defender (a Reggie White or Lawrence Taylor) here. Offensively, when you pick this high, it's got to be a QB...someone who will be THE GUY for 10-15 years. If the Giants don't feel confident about the QB who will be there at #2, then don't force it. Trade back.
The whispers out there are the Giants are not going to draft a QB. I'm not sure I buy that. But if that is true, then I think trading down is seriously in play.
RE: I think this pretty much confirms the Giants are taking a QB
If not the Jets would have just moved to 2 and the Giants get a decent haul while most likely still getting Nelson/Barkley.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
Maybe DG didn't think that offer was enough for him.
Now, if he waits them out, and isn't high on a QB, maybe he can get their #1 next year, plus ? to go from 2-3. Key is going to be how he feels about a QB, or if the Browns take the one he wants at 1, IMO.
I could also see them trading back with Denver if they aren't high on a QB or he's gone at 1.
Buffalo did it last year with KC, and now they are frantically trying to trade up the next year. Its so overrated.
Yup. When you have a Barkley in your lap it better be an offer you can't refuse type of deal to pass him up. Hall of Fame players don't fall out of trees like this.
RE: I think this pretty much confirms the Giants are taking a QB
If not the Jets would have just moved to 2 and the Giants get a decent haul while most likely still getting Nelson/Barkley.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
This! However, there is the thought that even if the Giants might be willing to trade the #2 it wouldn't be to the crosstown rivals. Bad PR move to give the Jests Rosen or Darnold.
What a shitty haul for the Colts. If this is the going rate don't trade. Quality is almost always better than quantity. Just stop outsmarting yourself and grab a QB or Barkley. People are obsessed with trades that usually work in the favor of the team trading up. Take the franchise altering player rather than hope to get a bunch of good players. This isn't hard. Take the fucking QB. Don't be the Browns.
I don't understand why the Colts wouldn't sweat the Jets out and drive up the price.
It makes things much more difficult for the Browns to get cute with their QB at 1. Also speaks to how the Jets view these QBs, they have to see at least 3 franchise worthy guys to make this move now. Great news all around as the Giant pick just became much more valuable.
Another interesting development is that the Jets may actually be a potential trade partner for the Giants. If the Giants actually do love Barkley over the QBs and the Jets have a preference for one, the Bills can be used as leverage to entice the Jets to move up on spot. Just one scenario that benefits the Giants after this move.
I'd wait and then do a deal with the Bills. Their #12, #22, their two 2nd rounders, and something next draft. Thats a massive haul, and could really plug a lot of holes for us. Thats possible 5 new starters in the 1st two rounds. For example McGlinchey (sp?), a top RB, a top CB, a LB, a Guard, etc.
Buffalo will have to pay a ransom to get to 2 ( If Giants want to trade). Colts didnt want to move further back than 6. Knew where drop off was. Its about the quality of the player
really cares. They already leveraged themselves at the RB position with the Carlos Hyde signing. They are going to get either Fitzpatrick, Chubb or Nelson. But Barkley is still their, they can still take him.
lot depends on how the Browns value the QBs. If their grades on Darnold, Rosen, and Allen aren't substantially different, then they may just take Barkley, knowing they'll still get one of he QBs at #4. That's probably what I would do. That would also make the Giants' pick more valuable, since anyone trading with us would get whatever QB they wanted. But even if the Browns take a QB, our pick is still valuable since the Jets will obviously take a QB at #3.
My guess as of right now:
If the Browns take a QB, we stay put at #2, and take Barkley.
If the Browns take Barkley, we trade out for a fortune.
lot depends on how the Browns value the QBs. If their grades on Darnold, Rosen, and Allen aren't substantially different, then they may just take Barkley, knowing they'll still get one of he QBs at #4. That's probably what I would do. That would also make the Giants' pick more valuable, since anyone trading with us would get whatever QB they wanted. But even if the Browns take a QB, our pick is still valuable since the Jets will obviously take a QB at #3.
My guess as of right now:
If the Browns take a QB, we stay put at #2, and take Barkley.
If the Browns take Barkley, we trade out for a fortune.
What a shitty haul for the Colts. If this is the going rate don't trade. Quality is almost always better than quantity. Just stop outsmarting yourself and grab a QB or Barkley. People are obsessed with trades that usually work in the favor of the team trading up. Take the franchise altering player rather than hope to get a bunch of good players. This isn't hard. Take the fucking QB. Don't be the Browns.
I don't understand why the Colts wouldn't sweat the Jets out and drive up the price.
If we believe Dave Te then they really want Nelson or Chubb. And if the Jets wind up trading with us then they lose out on dropping to six where it seems Nelson will still be available.
How does this change anything for the Giants other than a) make their pick more valuable for QB needy teams or b) force CLE to more strongly consider a QB leaving Barkley for the Giants.
Quote:
Jason McIntyre
Verified account @jasonrmcintyre
13m13 minutes ago
The Jets just backed the Giants into a corner. LOVE IT.
Browns want Saquon at 1?
Giants have to take a QB at 2, and deal with all the Eli drama.
HAHAHAHAHA, Jets baby, well done!
Sam Darnold in play for the Jets?
Maybe I'm off because there was certainly Eli drama last year but I sure hope that DG won't be making the decision based on perceived Eli drama. Like this is someone trying to sound smart about a complete non-factor.
If not the Jets would have just moved to 2 and the Giants get a decent haul while most likely still getting Nelson/Barkley.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
This! However, there is the thought that even if the Giants might be willing to trade the #2 it wouldn't be to the crosstown rivals. Bad PR move to give the Jests Rosen or Darnold.
I don't think this confirms that at all. I think the only thing it confirms is it puts pressure on the Browns to take a QB at 1. They can't risk the guy they like still being there at 4.
As for the Giants, while they might like and be targeting a QB at 2, what if it's the same one the Browns grab at 1? Does anyone think the Giants have two QBs rated the same or would settle on their second choice just because he's a QB? I don't.
They are in a huge position of strength here at 2, even more than before thanks to the Jets trade.
Not sloppy seconds. This isn't fantasy football where you have to draft a position this round or else. This high you have to go BPA if there is not a QB you absolutely love. If Darnold isn't there you'd be out of your mind to wage the franchise on a guy who has had 2 concussions in a year, a guy who has accuracy issues or Mayfield. One or all of those guys might be end up being good. Rosen might never have another concussion. But are you willing to bet on those things? Or take the sure bet in Barkley......or a massive trade down?
lot depends on how the Browns value the QBs. If their grades on Darnold, Rosen, and Allen aren't substantially different, then they may just take Barkley, knowing they'll still get one of he QBs at #4. That's probably what I would do. That would also make the Giants' pick more valuable, since anyone trading with us would get whatever QB they wanted. But even if the Browns take a QB, our pick is still valuable since the Jets will obviously take a QB at #3.
My guess as of right now:
If the Browns take a QB, we stay put at #2, and take Barkley.
If the Browns take Barkley, we trade out for a fortune.
Either one is fine with me.
Our spot has definitely increased in value now. We are in a perfect position to reap a goldmine worth of picks
Would you be happy if the Giants came away with Nelson and additional #1 and/or #2 picks in 2018/2019? I would.
Yeah. Absolutely. It would be hard to see a situation where I would not be in agreememt. After a few years we will look back and say maybe we should have done something different but I'd love Barkley, Nelson, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, Rosen, possibly Allen after hearing he never had a QB coach at college, or a trade down for a king's ransom.
lot depends on how the Browns value the QBs. If their grades on Darnold, Rosen, and Allen aren't substantially different, then they may just take Barkley, knowing they'll still get one of he QBs at #4. That's probably what I would do. That would also make the Giants' pick more valuable, since anyone trading with us would get whatever QB they wanted. But even if the Browns take a QB, our pick is still valuable since the Jets will obviously take a QB at #3.
My guess as of right now:
If the Browns take a QB, we stay put at #2, and take Barkley.
If the Browns take Barkley, we trade out for a fortune.
Either one is fine with me.
You dont think QB is a need?
I don't think any of the QBs are worth the #2 pick. That has nothing to do with Webb. Webb is irrelevant to that conclusion.
Rosen is the best player in the draft, but he has an injury history that includes two recent concussions. He's also a classic pocket passer in an era where the proliferation of spread offenses in college mean that OL play in the NFL has declined markedly. He has nimble feet and good pocket presence, but is not a threat to run.
Darnold has a loopy throwing motion, and his arm and lower body are often not in sync when he throws. That produces a lot of overthrows. He has s somewhat chunky body style, is prone to fumbling, and stares down receivers.
Allen has the best arm since Elway. He's also incredibly strong, and can consequently shake off tacklers. He can also run. But he has serious accuracy issues.
I trust the Giants' judgment if they draft any of the QBs. None are anywhere near remote throwers. But I'd probably take Barkley or trade down. If forced to pick a QB, I'd take Darnold.
Because drafting is subjective. The Giants have repeatedly said the #2 pick has to be a HOF talent. What if the Giants scouts - right or wrong - don't believe ANY of the QBs are HOF talents?
just 2 of the #2 picks would have been enough. A third #2 seems like a premium.
Nice to hear as DG has to be licking his chops. We absolutely need to hold out and wait to see how desperate Buffalo becomes for our #2 pick.
I am all-in on picking Rosen #2, but if we can a crapload of picks this year plus Buffalo's #1 pcik next year, we can package up something next year to move up and pick a QB.
Have to consider who at QB becomes available next year to make the best decision...
Id find it odd that all the teams want to trade up desperately for one of these QBs but the Giants think theyre garbage? Doesnt add up
We don't know what the Giants think. Maybe they don't think these guys are garbage and sending out some mis directions? Maybe they really are good with Eli for another couple of years or really high on Webb.
Maybe these other teams are panicking while the Giants are staying cool.
RE: I think this pretty much confirms the Giants are taking a QB
If not the Jets would have just moved to 2 and the Giants get a decent haul while most likely still getting Nelson/Barkley.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
I think so too. They no doubt called the Giants about a trade for the number 2 pick and settled at 3. They clearly wanted to jump in front of Denver at the very least so they have their choice of the 3rd QB.
I don't understand why everyone is obsessed with trading down
Maybe if out QB were 5 years younger but don't overthink it. It's like the Giants taking Robert Gallery in 2004 (if he were still around) rather than Eli.
-Increases the price of #2 for Denver, Miami, and Buffalo.
-It will take a lot for Browns/Giants to move out of the top 2 picks.
-Browns take QB @1 or they settle with the 4th best QB at 4
-Increases the probability of Barkley getting to 4
-Eliminates the Browns moving from 4 to 2
-Increases the probability of the Browns trading out of 4
-Jets have QBs graded relatively close
The trade isn't a big surprise, many projected it if Jets lost out on Cousins. What's interesting now is how this forces the Bills hand. They are on the move for a QB. Miami and Denver are also on the outside looking in. Very real possibility 4 QBs go in top 5 which I heard months ago. Unreal.
How does this change anything for the Giants other than a) make their pick more valuable for QB needy teams or b) force CLE to more strongly consider a QB leaving Barkley for the Giants.
Quote:
Jason McIntyre
Verified account @jasonrmcintyre
13m13 minutes ago
The Jets just backed the Giants into a corner. LOVE IT.
Browns want Saquon at 1?
Giants have to take a QB at 2, and deal with all the Eli drama.
HAHAHAHAHA, Jets baby, well done!
Sam Darnold in play for the Jets?
Whoever this guy is... he missed the memo months ago.
Because drafting is subjective. The Giants have repeatedly said the #2 pick has to be a HOF talent. What if the Giants scouts - right or wrong - don't believe ANY of the QBs are HOF talents?
Obviously we dont know what theyre thinking but I find it hard to believe they dont like one of these guys enough. The only team with trading with is Denver anything else would be to far imo. If they dont draft a QB Davis Webb better be really good
Would you be happy if the Giants came away with Nelson and additional #1 and/or #2 picks in 2018/2019? I would.
Problem is trading to 12. Nelson won't be there. I have no issue trading back if you stay in top 10.. but to move to 12, you lose all shot at Nelson or any blue chip player. Maybe Denver at 5? That might be perfect.
What if you get a deal where you trade down, get the top OL in the draft, then use the extra #1 (or perhaps one of your #2s) on another OL?
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
I'm fine with that, or staying put and taking Barkley. As I've said, I'm not a fan of any of the QBs at #2, but certainly won't hate it if they take one.
Id prefer Barkley in that scenario, but hed likely be gone. Just know we could be in the same spot as Buffalo next year, trying to trade up after trading down the previous year.
Such a significant drop. Im stunned so many people here are so excited about trading down to 12. SMH
Same here. The farthest I'd want them to drop back is 5 with Fenver.
After such a painful to watch, shitty year last year, they have to come away with one of the top, blue chip players from this draft. He won't be there at 12,IMO.
Give me one of Barkley,Chubb, Fitzpatrick or Nelson plus some picks and I'd be ok with a trade back to 5, as long as they're not in love with a QB who is still there at 2.
If not the Jets would have just moved to 2 and the Giants get a decent haul while most likely still getting Nelson/Barkley.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
Not necessarily, they may not have felt the jets offered enough to surrender the pick, but that doesn't mean they won't move if the right offer comes along.
The Giants were always going to either grab Darnold or Barkley at #2. The rest of the discussion is all noise.
They are in a can't miss spot.
One is a generational QB talent who for years has been touted as the next great thing, and really has never done anything to change that. He will be a future star. Think of a much better Aaron Rodgers coming out of college and that's Darnold.
The other is a generational RB talent who produced running behind a putrid O-Line. Behind this new line he can be amazing.
Both are amazing people most importantly, and the type of foundational player that this team needs.
Take ALL of the analysis out of the picture from every single pundit about arm strength, accuracy, quickness, speed, etc. and filter it through the lens of JOHN MARA. This is the key. Mara just went through a period where he stepped back a little bit and trusted Reese and McAdoo and his father's franchise was quite frankly embarrassed. He knows the franchise is at a crossroads. No shot he lets that happen again. He is signing off on this pick 100%, and the two true character guys happen to be the best 2 guys in the draft, in Darnold and Barkley.
Do you think Mara is going to put the future of his franchise in the hands of Baker Mayfield, whose overblown reputation is still just that...a reputation....or Josh Rosen, the political activist who has his own reputation of being a party guy (among the other concerns with him)?
I could do DG's job in this draft. See which one of the two is picked 1st and then pick the other. Not brain surgery.
The ONLY caveat is if someone absolutely knocks the socks off of the Giants with a deal, which starts at 2 firsts and 2 seconds IMO.
assuming they don't want to take a QB at 2. However, it's going to require creativity on their part and that has never been a strong suit of the organization.
What if you get a deal where you trade down, get the top OL in the draft, then use the extra #1 (or perhaps one of your #2s) on another OL?
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
Extra picks to spend on another QB? Think about that one. Unless Webb is the real deal (dubious) then we are going to have to make a similar trade in reverse a couple of years down the road.
RE: RE: This trade will further motivate the Browns to take a qb -
is still a tough sell for them. They'll have to give up 3 first round picks at minimum to beat out a deal from Denver who will have to separate with at least 2 first rounders.
I look for Buffalo to make another trade with a team close to 5. Whether that is the Browns, Denver, the Colts moving back again (which is highly unlikely), or Tampa.
Then Bills make an offer for pick #2. I don't think Gettleman (if he's considering it) will move back much further than 7.
I dont see any scenario in which the Browns dont take a QB at #1.
And I think Barkley is the BPA in this draft, period. I badly want him to be the Giants pick at #2. Reaching for players like Pugh and Flowers is why the team is picking #2. Dont force a pick for a QB.
Anyone else wonder why the Jets didnt make this trade closer to draft day? I guess they thought the price would go up?
Browns get their choice at 4 of Chubb Nelson Barkley
We pick whichever they don't take and like best at 5 and get extra picks and a 1 next year.
If we don't take QB we HAVE to trade with Denver.
I'd add Fitzpatrick to that mix but totally agree with you and this is the type of deal they'd lay the parameters for before the draft, imo.
If the Giants wanted a QB but the Browns took him at 1, they'd be able to pull the trigger on this with Denver on draft day. Personally, I don't want them trading back any farther than this.
I think even if the Giants aren't high on a QB, they're going to let on they are in order to get a huge deal to think about. I'd be surprised if they made any move before the draft unless of course they get one they can't refuse.
The Giants were always going to either grab Darnold or Barkley at #2. The rest of the discussion is all noise.
They are in a can't miss spot.
One is a generational QB talent who for years has been touted as the next great thing, and really has never done anything to change that. He will be a future star. Think of a much better Aaron Rodgers coming out of college and that's Darnold.
The other is a generational RB talent who produced running behind a putrid O-Line. Behind this new line he can be amazing.
Both are amazing people most importantly, and the type of foundational player that this team needs.
Take ALL of the analysis out of the picture from every single pundit about arm strength, accuracy, quickness, speed, etc. and filter it through the lens of JOHN MARA. This is the key. Mara just went through a period where he stepped back a little bit and trusted Reese and McAdoo and his father's franchise was quite frankly embarrassed. He knows the franchise is at a crossroads. No shot he lets that happen again. He is signing off on this pick 100%, and the two true character guys happen to be the best 2 guys in the draft, in Darnold and Barkley.
Do you think Mara is going to put the future of his franchise in the hands of Baker Mayfield, whose overblown reputation is still just that...a reputation....or Josh Rosen, the political activist who has his own reputation of being a party guy (among the other concerns with him)?
I could do DG's job in this draft. See which one of the two is picked 1st and then pick the other. Not brain surgery.
The ONLY caveat is if someone absolutely knocks the socks off of the Giants with a deal, which starts at 2 firsts and 2 seconds IMO.
I'm assuming this is opinion and not your source, correct?
How does this change anything for the Giants other than a) make their pick more valuable for QB needy teams or b) force CLE to more strongly consider a QB leaving Barkley for the Giants.
Quote:
Jason McIntyre
Verified account @jasonrmcintyre
13m13 minutes ago
The Jets just backed the Giants into a corner. LOVE IT.
Browns want Saquon at 1?
Giants have to take a QB at 2, and deal with all the Eli drama.
HAHAHAHAHA, Jets baby, well done!
Sam Darnold in play for the Jets?
What an idiot. This means the Giants told the Jets to fuck off so now the Jets get the third pick of the litter. Moron.
RE: RE: This trade will further motivate the Browns to take a qb -
or to trade with us, as there's less chance the qb that they want is available at the 4th pick.
This ^^^
I also agree. This could be better for Giants. They get their pick between Barkley and Rosen if this happens. I doubt Browns go Rosen after he made it clear he doesn't want to go to Cleveland.
important takeaway for me is the Jets willing to jump into the 3rd overall pick this early in the game. That means they have a very strong conviction in at least 3 QB's in this draft. Similar to the convictions shown by both the Rams and Eagles a couple of years ago making deals weeks prior to the draft, that QB class was something to jump for. This QB class is the same. The stars aligned for the Giants to have a great pick in a great QB class, hopefully they don't get stupid or cute and just take the gift that has fallen right into their lap.
trading with the Browns for pick 4 makes more sense. Browns get both guys they want a Rb and QB than the Jets get a Qb and Giants can decide if its Rosen or Mayfield. They would also get a boat load of picks.I could live with that. If the Giants take Barkley at 2 I am OK with that as well but in know way should we take Nelson at 2.
Picks are only as valuable as the players who are available.
I still don't think this is a great draft and who knows what next year brings. I don't like getting caught up in stocking picks. It's often referred to as "the currency of hope". You can feel great about what those picks represent in potential, but potential is all that they are.
might cost them Nelson - could very well be Colts pick
The Giants can use help everywhere on this roster. That was just one example. Chubb would be great too. Or a CB. And again, you are receiving multiple #1/#2 picks to address the roster.
Is one with Cle. Trade back to number 4 and acquire 3 of their seconds from this year. That way we could plug alot of holes and fill this team with some talent.
trading with the Browns for pick 4 makes more sense. Browns get both guys they want a Rb and QB than the Jets get a Qb and Giants can decide if its Rosen or Mayfield. They would also get a boat load of picks.I could live with that. If the Giants take Barkley at 2 I am OK with that as well but in know way should we take Nelson at 2.
No lol. Awful logic.
RE: The main trade the Giants should be focused on
Is one with Cle. Trade back to number 4 and acquire 3 of their seconds from this year. That way we could plug alot of holes and fill this team with some talent.
I agree. Either Cleveland or Denver at 5. Best of both worlds and guarantees a bluechip.
important takeaway for me is the Jets willing to jump into the 3rd overall pick this early in the game. That means they have a very strong conviction in at least 3 QB's in this draft.
This should be a big takeaway after this trade, yet I'm still seeing comments stating that "there isn't a franchise QB worth taking at 2" in this very thread. The Jets clearly think differently, in fact they see 3.
I'm not saying that's how the Giants feel either, it's just that they would be in the minority if they did.
Between now and the end of Day One of the Draft...
90% chance the Giants #2 pick just got hugely more valuable;
10% chance the Giants #2 pick has not changed in value;
0% chance the Giants #2 pick lost value.
The Jets move is a really good story for the Giants!
Others have said the following, but it bears repeating:
(1) Cleveland now must go QB at #1;
(2) If the Giants want Barkley he'll now be sitting there at #2;
(3) If the Giants have placed a can't miss franchise-label on one of the QBs available at #2, then he's our pick;
(4) If not... and if not Barkley... then the Giants should wheel and deal until the cows come home;
(5) And if they go the "Let's make a Deal" route, they could end up with Nelson and several extra premium picks between this year and next.
This is a very good day to be a New York Giants fan!
What if the Giants like one of the other QBs in this draft who will go later more than the "top rated" guys?
Trading down makes sense to me only if we're rolling with Eli for 2 more years at least or think Webb is the answer. To pass on the top-rated QB's in the class only to take one later strikes me as a Browns like move - Cody Kessler and Deshone Kizer rather than Wentz or Watson.
I remember reading somewhere that they really like Chubb so they can sit at 4 and get their two guys even if Barkley is still on the board. I also think Fitzpatrick would be a perfect fit in Cleveland.
The Giants were always going to either grab Darnold or Barkley at #2. The rest of the discussion is all noise.
They are in a can't miss spot.
One is a generational QB talent who for years has been touted as the next great thing, and really has never done anything to change that. He will be a future star. Think of a much better Aaron Rodgers coming out of college and that's Darnold.
The other is a generational RB talent who produced running behind a putrid O-Line. Behind this new line he can be amazing.
Both are amazing people most importantly, and the type of foundational player that this team needs.
Take ALL of the analysis out of the picture from every single pundit about arm strength, accuracy, quickness, speed, etc. and filter it through the lens of JOHN MARA. This is the key. Mara just went through a period where he stepped back a little bit and trusted Reese and McAdoo and his father's franchise was quite frankly embarrassed. He knows the franchise is at a crossroads. No shot he lets that happen again. He is signing off on this pick 100%, and the two true character guys happen to be the best 2 guys in the draft, in Darnold and Barkley.
Do you think Mara is going to put the future of his franchise in the hands of Baker Mayfield, whose overblown reputation is still just that...a reputation....or Josh Rosen, the political activist who has his own reputation of being a party guy (among the other concerns with him)?
I could do DG's job in this draft. See which one of the two is picked 1st and then pick the other. Not brain surgery.
The ONLY caveat is if someone absolutely knocks the socks off of the Giants with a deal, which starts at 2 firsts and 2 seconds IMO.
I'm assuming this is opinion and not your source, correct?
Maybe if out QB were 5 years younger but don't overthink it. It's like the Giants taking Robert Gallery in 2004 (if he were still around) rather than Eli.
Colts traded down because they don't need a QB and there's a market for the high pick they had. They move back only 3 spots and get (3) 2nd round picks for it.
Love the idea of fixing the line and accumulating picks but don't like the idea that we go back the Kent Graham / Dave Brown era either. Give me a franchise QB and hen fix the line over time. Better chance of that working.
The fact that the Jets went ahead with pulling the trigger on this deal 5 weeks out from the draft means one of two things. One, they couldn't get number 2 or, two, the number 3 pick is more enticing to us but what would the Jets give up? They have no second round picks the next two years so would they go ahead and trade number 3 and next year's first?
If someone wants to trade up with us they have to gives a kings ransom.
You know the Jets are taking a QB there. That cost to move up to 2 is going to be much higher then this!
--------------
Without reading 168 responses, this was my EXACT thought.
The Bills might have to give up 12,21 and next year's #1.
The Oline can be fixed and a RB (pick 34). Next years 1 can be used for Ammo for a QB.
Plus the rookie contracts at 12 (McGlinchey and one of the centers at 21) can offset the cost of Solder.
I can't see Gettleman turning this down. He'd have to be in love with BOTH Allen and Darnold.
With the added value of 2 (with the Jets trade) no way he drafts Barkley. Means it's either a QB or a trade. Which ALSO means the Browns can get Darnold/Allen at 1 and Barkley at 4.
Browns fans should be MORE elated than us.
So just to summarize the Jets phenominal QB activity
McCown - veteran
Bridgewater - a 1 year deal for a guy who hasn't played in 2 years, and now may likely never play for the Jets
Petty - 4th round pick in 2015
Hackenberg - 2nd round in 2016
xxxx - 1st round pick in 2018, where they gave away a slew of other picks.
Seeing as you can only really have 3 QB's at most that means 2 have to go at least. You know McCown is there and the new draft choice is there. That leaves 1 of Bridgewater, Petty, and Hackenberg to make it (if they do keep 1). So that could mean Bridgewater never puts on a Jets jersey, or that they just punt on their 2016 2nd round pick.
or to trade with us, as there's less chance the qb that they want is available at the 4th pick.
This ^^^
my god...dream scenario
Browns want to secure barkley and darnold
they trade #4 and a similar trade with the Jets (get there two two's 33 and 35 and there second rounder next year.
Giants now have #4, #33, #34, and #35
Then bills get desperate to move up after darnold and whoever the jets pick is off the board and want to jump the broncos. They offer the giants
#12, #22, #53, and 56 and there 1st round pikc next year.
So the giants would have
#12, #22, #33, #34, #35, #53, and #56 in the 1st two rounds this year plus the Bills first round pick next year and the browns 2nd round pick next year.
I only do this if the Giants think Webb can be the franchise Qb...but if they do this could rebuild the giants roster in two years.
Clearly the Jets offered this pick to the Giants and we turned them down.
Theres no way, that we would have turned down that trade if we were not focused on QB. We would have had a decent chance at any position player we wanted at 6 (guanratee atleast 3 QBs taken in top 5) plus gotten two/three more higher picks. That would have been huge for us.
I love Barkley as a huge PSU fan, but theres no way hed be worth turning that package down and Id be SHOCKED if the Giants disagreed with that.
The only other reason they would have turned this trade down, in a world where they are not sold on a QB, is if they had a better trade down lined up (very doubtful).
Barkley isn't going in the top 3 picks. Just doesn't fit the narrative.
-Jets didn't trade all those assets for a move to get a RB.
-Giants won't turn down multiple 1 round picks for a RB.
-Makes ZERO sense for the Browns to trade up to pick #2 for Barkley when they'll likely have him at 4.
-NYG not trading back with NYJ is very telling in my opinion. Its a QB unless DG gets that "offer he can't refuse".
Agree with all of these points except for the last one. The other possibility is that the Giants believe one of the QB's is a franchise caliber guy. If that's the case then you'd wait to see who Cleveland takes first before pulling the trigger on a deal. That's the only other possibility in my mind.
Those who want Saquon will likely be in denial but this screams of the Giants at least believing that one of the quarterbacks is worth the 2nd pick.
important takeaway for me is the Jets willing to jump into the 3rd overall pick this early in the game. That means they have a very strong conviction in at least 3 QB's in this draft.
This should be a big takeaway after this trade, yet I'm still seeing comments stating that "there isn't a franchise QB worth taking at 2" in this very thread. The Jets clearly think differently, in fact they see 3.
I'm not saying that's how the Giants feel either, it's just that they would be in the minority if they did.
The NFL market is saying these guys are worth a lot. The Giants can buck that but they will either have to find a bargain later in the draft (maybe they already did with Webb) or pay that steep market price in a future draft. Personally I don't think you go bargain hunting with the future of your franchise but yeah, it does work out sometimes.
Why would you trade out of the pick now? The longer you wait, the more you will get.
agreed this trade just increased the value of the #2 pick. Jets are picking a QB when the colts weren't
so now if you aren't in the top 3 chances are you aren't getting the QB you want. So if a team like the bills needs a QB the only spot they have to move up is the #2 spot.
To pick a QB here, hopefully Rosen if available. Idk why the jets wouldnt wait to see who the first few picks are before making this move.
The reason the Jets do not wait til draft day is they will pay 1/3 to 1/2 more to get same result, the #3 overall pick. This was their cheapest move to make IMO...
might cost them Nelson - could very well be Colts pick
The Giants can use help everywhere on this roster. That was just one example. Chubb would be great too. Or a CB. And again, you are receiving multiple #1/#2 picks to address the roster.
We have five picks right now.
Yep. The Giants are now in a position to rake Buffalo over the coals if they want their guy. Theres no telling what the cost might be, but it will definitely include both 1s and 2s plus a future first. My guess is more.
Thats a ton of premium picks to add cheap talent to the roster. As far as the gold jacket crap, Ray Lewis and Marvin Harrison were selected in the late 20s. Id rather have several picks to find gold jacket guys than one pick.
I think it's crazy to assume that the Giants would do anything to help the Jets. I would never see them trading even if it benefited the Giants. Can you imagine if the Giants traded with Jets and they picked a pro bowl qb and now giants in qb hell for 10 years.
I don't think Mara would ever live that down. Not in the NY market.
McCown - veteran
Bridgewater - a 1 year deal for a guy who hasn't played in 2 years, and now may likely never play for the Jets
Petty - 4th round pick in 2015
Hackenberg - 2nd round in 2016
xxxx - 1st round pick in 2018, where they gave away a slew of other picks.
Seeing as you can only really have 3 QB's at most that means 2 have to go at least. You know McCown is there and the new draft choice is there. That leaves 1 of Bridgewater, Petty, and Hackenberg to make it (if they do keep 1). So that could mean Bridgewater never puts on a Jets jersey, or that they just punt on their 2016 2nd round pick.
What a mess.
For a team in desperate need of a QB I don't think hedging their bets on the position is a bad move. I would want to get out of "QB Hell" as well.
I think it's crazy to assume that the Giants would do anything to help the Jets. I would never see them trading even if it benefited the Giants. Can you imagine if the Giants traded with Jets and they picked a pro bowl qb and now giants in qb hell for 10 years.
I don't think Mara would ever live that down. Not in the NY market.
Exactly. Play this out. A franchise QB could mean 7/8 playoffs in 10 years. A super bowl.
This is major financial money in tbe NY market. Especislky if the Giants are stuck without one .
I think it's crazy to assume that the Giants would do anything to help the Jets. I would never see them trading even if it benefited the Giants. Can you imagine if the Giants traded with Jets and they picked a pro bowl qb and now giants in qb hell for 10 years.
I don't think Mara would ever live that down. Not in the NY market.
Which is why I cant see them taking Barkley and letting the Jets have Darnold or Rosen
Is make it harder on Cleveland to draft Barkley at 1 knowing two qbs will go before they pick at 4. They might not get their guy. It also give the NYG more options I believe. Im also glad they did it early as we have time to prepare. But I also feel Jets did well.
In 1 or 2 years Just where is our next QB going to come from if we trade out? The Days of "sure thing" college qbs like Luck are a thing of the past due to multiple variables. Are we going to offer up a kings ransom like the ones you are dreaming about for the #2 pick to get our guy?
Is make it harder on Cleveland to draft Barkley at 1 knowing two qbs will go before they pick at 4. They might not get their guy. It also give the NYG more options I believe. Im also glad they did it early as we have time to prepare. But I also feel Jets did well.
Plus they just picked up a starting RB in Hyde. I see no way Cleve does anything but pick a QB now.
Browns could easily take Barkley at #1. They might legitimately be concerned that the Giants would take him at #2. They might also have very close grades on all the "big three" QBs, one of whom is guaranteed to be available at #4.
In 1 or 2 years Just where is our next QB going to come from if we trade out? The Days of "sure thing" college qbs like Luck are a thing of the past due to multiple variables. Are we going to offer up a kings ransom like the ones you are dreaming about for the #2 pick to get our guy?
Could be Webb. Depends on what the Giants think of him
Is make it harder on Cleveland to draft Barkley at 1 knowing two qbs will go before they pick at 4. They might not get their guy. It also give the NYG more options I believe. Im also glad they did it early as we have time to prepare. But I also feel Jets did well.
I disagree. Hyde is good, young, and can carry the rock for them for a number of years. RB is no longer a position of need for the Browns, a young QB absolutely is.
You either have to have a massive conviction on the QB who will be there at #2 or you now accept the massive trade deal some team is going to give you.
Yes I know there are whispers but thats smoke. If Buffalo wants our number 2. I say we want their entire draft this year. They would not do this so we get our new QB. Fun times...
What if you get a deal where you trade down, get the top OL in the draft, then use the extra #1 (or perhaps one of your #2s) on another OL?
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
If youre gonna assume that haul fixes the OL with all pros then I will counter that the qb you just traded down from is a perennial pro bowl franchise leader. So no thanks. Gimme the stud qb.
Clearly the Jets offered this pick to the Giants and we turned them down.
Theres no way, that we would have turned down that trade if we were not focused on QB. We would have had a decent chance at any position player we wanted at 6 (guanratee atleast 3 QBs taken in top 5) plus gotten two/three more higher picks. That would have been huge for us.
I love Barkley as a huge PSU fan, but theres no way hed be worth turning that package down and Id be SHOCKED if the Giants disagreed with that.
The only other reason they would have turned this trade down, in a world where they are not sold on a QB, is if they had a better trade down lined up (very doubtful).
Totally disagree. Maybe they didn't think that trade was worth it. Maybe the Giants think they can get a better deal, and now with the Jets moving to 3, it increases the chances of that.
Very smart move by DG in passing on this,IMO.
Hell, if they wanted to trade with the Jets now, they could get their 1 next year + just to go back 1 spot! I'd take that over going back four spots for a few 2's.
1. Browns.........QB
2. Giants...........? (Barkley or QB)
3. Jets...............QB
4. Browns.........? (Barkley or Chubb)
5. Denver..........QB
6. Colts.............? (Chubb or Nelson)
Miami at 11, Buffalo at 12 and Arizona at 15 still could be in play to get in the QB sweepstakes.
Buffalo is the only team with the Treasure Chest in place to move into the top 4. And it will cost a Treasure Chest full of picks. No threes or lower. Send your ones and twos.
You want a QB, pay me.
Barkley isn't going in the top 3 picks. Just doesn't fit the narrative.
-Jets didn't trade all those assets for a move to get a RB.
-Giants won't turn down multiple 1 round picks for a RB.
-Makes ZERO sense for the Browns to trade up to pick #2 for Barkley when they'll likely have him at 4.
-NYG not trading back with NYJ is very telling in my opinion. Its a QB unless DG gets that "offer he can't refuse".
Giants would never trade back with them. I think it will be
Darnold
Rosen
Allen
Barkley
Mayfield
I think Gettleman will do whats best for the Giants, If a team offers a ransom I don't think it matters the name of the team. But for them to move out of 2, and passing on a QB, its going to take more than a few 2nd round picks. Multiple 1st would have to be involved. The Jets likely weighed their options.. I'm assuming they have the QBs closely rated and felt separating with more assets wasn't necessary.
Because drafting is subjective. The Giants have repeatedly said the #2 pick has to be a HOF talent. What if the Giants scouts - right or wrong - don't believe ANY of the QBs are HOF talents?
Shouldnt you know not to take public comments at face value? I have no idea why so many people are taking these comments so literally.
that would be a total disaster...not that they drafted nelson but the value of that pick isn't there for nelson. U need to get value if you are drafting nelson.
the notion around here that none of these guys are franchise players. We have teams frantically trying to trade up to grab one.
I know the Jets are desperate, but they could have stayed at 6 and taken the one that fell into their lap. I wonder who they are targeting.
Not necessarily. If your QB is Tyrod, McCown, Osweiler, or McCarron you know you have zero shot at winning anything significant. That being the case, if a guy looks to have franchise potential, you roll the dice. This type of shit happens almost every year.
Look at Mahomes. Look at Tribusky. Look at the teams that maneuvered for those guys. Dont look like legit QBs to me but teams are gonna move and gamble if the alternative is perpetual mediocrity at best.
RE: I love the fact that we are on the brink of manipulating a haul...
puts pressure on Denver. It's now possible that the top 4 QBs will all be gone before they pick, if Cleveland is willing to trade down out of #4. A little easier for Miami or Buffalo to move up to #4 than it is to move to #2. Say it unfolds this way:
Cleveland-QB
Giants-QB
Jets-QB
Cleveland-Trade with Miami or Buffalo
Denver would be shut out of all 4 QBs. Even if Cleveland doesn't trade down, Denver would be left with the 4th best option at QB. If I'm DG, I call Elway and say make me an offer I can't refuse and guarantee you get to choose between the three QBs left after Cleveland picks #1.
In comment 13870971 JINTin Adirondacks said:So in a sense Plank your Gambling Webb against the # 2 pick?
Quote:
In 1 or 2 years Just where is our next QB going to come from if we trade out? The Days of "sure thing" college qbs like Luck are a thing of the past due to multiple variables. Are we going to offer up a kings ransom like the ones you are dreaming about for the #2 pick to get our guy?
Could be Webb. Depends on what the Giants think of him
With Elwsy calling the shots, isnt he the most likely candidate to jump ahead of the Jets to get his young franchise QB? I dont know if he has enough to offer but Elway cant really wait to see who drops.
Also, regarding Nelson, I thought I read from Colin that Nelson is not that much better than the OG projected for round 2. Did anyone else see that? If yes, why the clamor for him top 5?
Also, if Barkley is this generational RB, and I dont agree, why couldnt the Jets have traded up for him. I dont think they gave up that much. Why so sure its the QB?
or to trade with us, as there's less chance the qb that they want is available at the 4th pick.
This ^^^
my god...dream scenario
Browns want to secure barkley and darnold
they trade #4 and a similar trade with the Jets (get there two two's 33 and 35 and there second rounder next year.
Giants now have #4, #33, #34, and #35
Then bills get desperate to move up after darnold and whoever the jets pick is off the board and want to jump the broncos. They offer the giants
#12, #22, #53, and 56 and there 1st round pikc next year.
So the giants would have
#12, #22, #33, #34, #35, #53, and #56 in the 1st two rounds this year plus the Bills first round pick next year and the browns 2nd round pick next year.
I only do this if the Giants think Webb can be the franchise Qb...but if they do this could rebuild the giants roster in two years.
Staying at 2: You only do this if you have conviction that the QB you're taking is a franchise leader with HoF potential. If they do that's fine, they're clearly more qualified than I am to make that distinction. But all of these guys have serious concerns. When you stand to gain as much as they can in a trade down, I don't take that gamble. I don't go Barkley either, as much as I love him. You're now weighing Barkley against adding multiple top end prospects over the next two drafts. As good as he looks to be, he's only one guy, and at a position where value can be had all over the draft.
Trade down with Buffalo: no thanks. 12 is too far back. They'd have to do something really special to get me to drop back 10 spots in this draft. They'd have to send the standard amount of picks and an ascending player to boot. Someone like Dion Dawkins. And that's not going to happen.
Trade down with Denver: Doable, but likely not nice as Cleveland. You still get a top 5 pick, add another in the top 40, and at least their first next year. In addition to a 3rd this yr and possibly next. And when next April rolls around, if you love on of the QBs, you have the ammo to go get them without crippling yourself for years.
Cleveland: This is the sweet spot IMO. At 4 you're getting Nelson/Chubb/Fitzpatrick as well as 33 and 35 overall, giving you the top 3 picks of the second round. It will lower the compensation on the back end but in all likelihood you're still getting the 1st yr as well. For a team with so many needs this is the ideal situation. You're adding one of the top players in the draft and getting 3 borderline first round talents at the top of the 2nd. That's the kind of trade that can quickly reverse a teams fortunes. The same potential to trade up next draft still applies as well.
I was unsure what I wanted the team to do up to this point but to me it's clear now: you pray Cleveland loves one of these QBs, you hold their feet to the fire, and you rebuild your roster. It might take some patience, it might even take until we're on the clock, but it's very possible if not likely.
This is compelling stuff. I'd rather not be at 2 overall, but it's a decent consolation for such a shitty season. It's also worth noting that this is opportune as all hell. The Giants haven't picked this high in decades. They're not likely to again in decades. The timing is immaculate.
puts pressure on Denver. It's now possible that the top 4 QBs will all be gone before they pick, if Cleveland is willing to trade down out of #4. A little easier for Miami or Buffalo to move up to #4 than it is to move to #2. Say it unfolds this way:
Cleveland-QB
Giants-QB
Jets-QB
Cleveland-Trade with Miami or Buffalo
Denver would be shut out of all 4 QBs. Even if Cleveland doesn't trade down, Denver would be left with the 4th best option at QB. If I'm DG, I call Elway and say make me an offer I can't refuse and guarantee you get to choose between the three QBs left after Cleveland picks #1.
Cleveland would more likely take Barkley at 4. They already have plenty of picks.
puts pressure on Denver. It's now possible that the top 4 QBs will all be gone before they pick, if Cleveland is willing to trade down out of #4. A little easier for Miami or Buffalo to move up to #4 than it is to move to #2. Say it unfolds this way:
Cleveland-QB
Giants-QB
Jets-QB
Cleveland-Trade with Miami or Buffalo
Denver would be shut out of all 4 QBs. Even if Cleveland doesn't trade down, Denver would be left with the 4th best option at QB. If I'm DG, I call Elway and say make me an offer I can't refuse and guarantee you get to choose between the three QBs left after Cleveland picks #1.
Cleveland would more likely take Barkley at 4. They already have plenty of picks.
Maybe if out QB were 5 years younger but don't overthink it. It's like the Giants taking Robert Gallery in 2004 (if he were still around) rather than Eli.
Colts traded down because they don't need a QB and there's a market for the high pick they had. They move back only 3 spots and get (3) 2nd round picks for it.
I meant why is everyone obsessed with US trading down to get Nelson. If we were picking 8th or something maybe. But if you have an opportunity to get a QB in a draft that until everyone started overanalyzing was pretty strong at QB you do it. I would be ok with Barkley if they think he has a good shot to be an all time great. Not a guard.
You don't know that jt. I know you have conviction Eli still has top years left but that doesn't mean the Giants do.
Remember when Mara signed off on the benching of Eli? Remember when he gave the directive to heavily scout the top QBs coming out this year? I have made it no secret I want a QB at two. I also believe they will take one at 2. Maybe I am wrong, but you could be wrong too.
Trade now for the Jets 2019 first round pick and You have draft capitol to get a QB next year. Screw that worry about dealing with the Jets, grab what is there. The Jets may still get the same QB depending on who they want. Auction off the number three pick, its now in play for Cleveland and may be the last chance for Denver, Buffalo, and Arizona. If Cleveland wants to deal all you need is a second round pick #33 and since Cleveland will only take one QB pick number four can now be auctioned and Buffalo is now a better option. Worse case scenario you get stuck taking Barkley or Nelson. If that massive offer that Eric is dreaming about is offered at any point you go all in and take it.
As far as this one free agency year, good qbs are moving around.
But...Is anyone letting go of a HOF guard?
I guess what I am saying, is how good does that QB need to be? BCause the unique guard might be more rare than say, a folles or cousins or what have you.
What if you get a deal where you trade down, get the top OL in the draft, then use the extra #1 (or perhaps one of your #2s) on another OL?
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
Why is nobody talking about a draft where we get Barkley/Nelson in the first and a QB like Lauletta in the second. To me, Lauletta looks pretty damn good, so if we can trade back and get extra picks and end up using an additional pick on Lauletta, great
Eric how many HOF players do you see on this list with the 2nd pick
I think you are correct and they are super high on Barkley. But if they pass up a massive trade deal and take the RB, he had better be Payton-esque.
at minimum the giants need to make the browns believe this so that now that he jets have forced the browns hand to pick a QB @ #1 the giants need to force the browns to trade up to #2 to get barkley
Giants need to put it out there they are either selection Darnold/Barkley at #2 whoever the browns don't take and then reap the rewards if someone blows us away with a trade.
(1) Cleveland now has to take a QB at one.
(2) Giants have three great options
(2A) Take Barkley
(2B) Take a QB
(2C) Trade out of the spot
As pointed by others the value of that spot just went up a lot. Whatever Buffalo thought they had to pay to move up from 12 just got a couple of draft picks added to it. I could see the Giants, if they want Barkley, to extorting another draft pick out of the Jets. Or getting a haul from a couple of other teams.
It is now the world's best poker game and from my perspective, the NY Giants control the table.
the Jets traded up, we should trade back and ignore the fact that Barkley is an amazing, elite prospect? Thats really stupid.
I don't think you're following this. The Jets traded up to get a QB. The other QB desperate teams now have to seriously push for trading up in front of the Jets. It means our #2 pick just dramatically increased in value.
I think you are correct and they are super high on Barkley. But if they pass up a massive trade deal and take the RB, he had better be Payton-esque.
at minimum the giants need to make the browns believe this so that now that he jets have forced the browns hand to pick a QB @ #1 the giants need to force the browns to trade up to #2 to get barkley
Giants need to put it out there they are either selection Darnold/Barkley at #2 whoever the browns don't take and then reap the rewards if someone blows us away with a trade.
Why, it's just as likely QBs go in the first 3 picks and they get Barkley at 4.
if you are comparing prospects to a guy we drafted almost 15 years ago, I dont know what to tell you.
I don't see the difference so I guess you don't know what to tell me.
The difference is QBs play if different offense now with less responsibility. They also have 5,000 beat writers and armchair scouts critiquing their every move.
Its 2018, the perfect prospect doesnt exist. If you are waiting for he next Eli Manning you are going to be waiting a while.
Goff, Wentz, etc all have/had warts in college. We have to hit on a guy with warts, whether you want to admit it or not.
You're not following me. I'm talking 2004 version of Eli, not the 2018 version. If you take a QB at #2, you had better be taking another Eli Manning or better.
So what? You can't make decisions based on those type of concerns. You do what you think is best for your team.
Holy crap, talk about insecurity.
The Maras have always kept an eye out on the Jets. Maybe Wellington did more, but its still a factor. Dont kid yourself. Plus Darnold or Rosen are worth taking at 2
the Jets traded up, we should trade back and ignore the fact that Barkley is an amazing, elite prospect? Thats really stupid.
I don't think you're following this. The Jets traded up to get a QB. The other QB desperate teams now have to seriously push for trading up in front of the Jets. It means our #2 pick just dramatically increased in value.
I dont see the same thing. There are 4 QBs. Denver is currently in position to grab the 4th.
Alot of these teams would be happy to grab any of Them. The pick that they need to get in front of is Denvers. The 4 pick just gained in value.
If they want a top 4 QB.
Denver has to worry about Bills jumping them to move to 4.
If giants go QB the best Denver can do is QB 4
Denver has to do something. They now face the very real scenario that Darnold, Rosen, and Mayfield may all be gone before they pick. Same for the Bills (a certainty in their case)
at QB. Probably Luck. Cant even say newton since he was and is a below average passer. So if you agree on Luck Han we are talking about 1 QB over a very long period of time where other really good to great QBs have also been drafted.
We have the correct HC to draft a QB that has some flaws. If we cant find a good prospect now we arent going to find it picking in the teens and 20s.
You're not following me. I'm talking 2004 version of Eli, not the 2018 version. If you take a QB at #2, you had better be taking another Eli Manning or better.
Ok, sorry. It wasn't clear.
I agree
RE: RE: Denver needs to trade with Giants or browns
If they want a top 4 QB.
Denver has to worry about Bills jumping them to move to 4.
If giants go QB the best Denver can do is QB 4
Denver has to do something. They now face the very real scenario that Darnold, Rosen, and Mayfield may all be gone before they pick. Same for the Bills (a certainty in their case)
You're not following me. I'm talking 2004 version of Eli, not the 2018 version. If you take a QB at #2, you had better be taking another Eli Manning or better.
Again, why is the QB slot subject to different rules? How is taking Barkley any different?
Why cant i say- he better be Ezekiel Elliott or better?
In terms of relative value the QB drafted will be paid NFl backup mondy for 5 years. Barkley will be paid top 5 in NFL.
Can anyone guarantee that Barkley is a top 5 NFL RB?
But really to be fair. You don't draft thinking HOF
as that is quite the bar to set. I do agree you draft a guy at #1 and #2 because he will be a huge asset in bringing the team to the promised land in the future.
I guess if he does that several times its a HOF-talent so I will stipulate...
Question for those saying if we do not draft a QB ...
For those saying if we don't draft a QB we are playing for now and not building the future a question. Let's assume in some of these scenarios we walk away with 5 or 6 picks in the first 2 rounds this year without considering what we get next year potentially. Do you realize we can get 5 or 6 starters with these picks which is almost 30% of our starting lineup at a relatively cheap cost for the next few years? How is that not planning for the future. If Webb is a QB of the future that is golden. If he is not you can probably trade down next year if you need a QB. Is getting potentially 5/6 starters a once in a life opportunity? I think so.
You don't take an average QB with the #2 pick in the draft. Period.
And that isnt what Im saying and you know it. You seem to want another Eli Manning. Cant blame you for wanting that but it likely isnt happening. So do you think Shurmur can take a slightly lesser prospect and make him good? Because thats really all that matters. If the answer is yes than you run to the podium. If its no then you look elsewhere.
But to say you better get Elis talent at 2 or else is foolish. Look at the other guys drafted in recent history that are in the playoffs year 2 putting up great numbers. None of them had Elis pedigree.
I think it's crazy to assume that the Giants would do anything to help the Jets. I would never see them trading even if it benefited the Giants. Can you imagine if the Giants traded with Jets and they picked a pro bowl qb and now giants in qb hell for 10 years.
I don't think Mara would ever live that down. Not in the NY market.
(1) If the Giants base their decisions around the Jets, then they are being mismanaged.
(2) Just because YOU think they are worthy of the #2 spot does not make it so.
Just because You think they are not worthy doesnt make it do either.
You used tbe pundit argument in your post to me, well id point it back to you. Clearky alot do and several NFL teams onbviousky think these QBs are worth it plus the "kings ransom" to move up and get them,
So what? You can't make decisions based on those type of concerns. You do what you think is best for your team.
Holy crap, talk about insecurity.
Agree. You should not care about what another team does unless it's in your own division. My personal opinion is that the Giants are in the drivers seat and could care less what the other teams do below them. They have a choice of a franchise QB or potential super star RB. DG will not trade down unless there is a knock your socks of offer. IMO, it's between Darnold, Barkley, and Rosen at #2.
Pat Shurmur and Dave Gettleman are both in line with my thinking on this. When you take someone at #1 or #2, you have to be drafting a player who is one of the best at his position. And as Gettleman said, if you botch the QB pick, you set your franchise back five years.
If you take Darnold or Rosen at #2, they had better be Eli (who went to a couple of Pro Bowls, had one superb season and a few other very good seasons) at that spot. Because you can get a lesser player lower in the first round.
The only reason Barkley is in the discussion right now is because many people feel he is the best running back to come along in years. (May or may not be true but a lot of people feel that way).
Now if the Giants feel Darnold or Rosen have the ability to be regular Pro Bowl-type quarterbacks, you take one of them. If you don't, you pass on the guy. You don't just take the QB. (And I've been the guy for months around here who has been leading the charge on drafting a QB).
Must feel they are a contender the next 4+ years( and they better because that cap space dries up quickly, and 2nd contracts will be due on guys whose positions pay big[CB]), and will take 1 of 2 choices that they fell neither Cleveland nor NY would take, but if 1 went, the other is there.
Unless Dorsey or DG leaked something that confirmed they will not take QB X.
Writers say Mayfield, but now seems Rosen, Darnold Allen.
If its Baker Mayfield, its good NYG had 5 guys at his pro day, even if just a charade.
Indy the early big #2 winner in the pre- draft. They and Cleveland own rd 2.
Giants should bug the Jets offices, find out who the he or they QB is, then drop a boatload of rumors they want they same guys. Put a little scare into them if its just a he.
"Shadow" their faxes to QB agents.
Or contact Indy, see if they want the #2.
Glad for Indy after the McDaniels Screw Job.
If Browns take a QB if the Jets offered next years 1 (should be a top 10) pick). Or would you need more players etc?
I'd do it just for their 1 next year if DG doesn't want a QB.
It accomplishes a few things IMO:
Forces the Browns hand even further to take a QB at 1, and ensures whatever guy DG does want is still there at 3.
It makes the #3 even more valuable now to a team who wants a QB (Denver) and could get us another 1 next year + other picks.
That could leave us with a Costner/Draft Day type of scenario. Adding two #1's next year, plus, and still getting one of Barkley,Chubb,Nelson or Fitzpatrick at 5!
This would be my ideal draft day scenario.
IMO, which I am learning is not shared by some here, the decision
to draft a QB or not hinges more on Webb than on Eli. You draft a QB high looking out 2 years or so in the future. Eli is the aging veteran who plays this year and maybe next. After that what they have now is Webb. They have seen him for a year and should be able to make an assessment. If they like Darnold and think 2 years from now he'll be a lot better than Webb, then draft him. If not then draft Barkley or trade down.
but your stance seems like your mind is made up when you really have no idea.
You know what else sets teams back? Picking the wrong non-QB at 2 as well.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I've said repeatedly on this thread that the Giants should now (1) draft the QB at #2 if they have a conviction on him, or (2) trade down if they don't.
The Giants are in a great position here right now, the type of position GMs dream about.
Barkley is an excellent prospect but get real. He has not shown that he is an every down back. He doesn't get his yards between the tackles. He is not Zeke Elliott. Sure maybe he is better but he is more of a Reggie Bush type back, but bigger. He makes his yards laterally and with his transcendent athleticism. But how long do those backs last? He is not really a banger so if they run him to the sidelines he can be frustrated. How good was Bush?
The pick is to take a chance on a QB. If the choice is between Wentz and Zeke, you take Wentz every time if you need a QB.
I am with Uconn on this. Taking the wrong QB at #2 doesn't
to draft a QB or not hinges more on Webb than on Eli. You draft a QB high looking out 2 years or so in the future. Eli is the aging veteran who plays this year and maybe next. After that what they have now is Webb. They have seen him for a year and should be able to make an assessment. If they like Darnold and think 2 years from now he'll be a lot better than Webb, then draft him. If not then draft Barkley or trade down.
You're limiting your thinking on this. What if the Giants have high grades on other QBs in this draft? And they are then also offered multiple #1 and #2 picks?
You're not following me. I'm talking 2004 version of Eli, not the 2018 version. If you take a QB at #2, you had better be taking another Eli Manning or better.
Again, why is the QB slot subject to different rules? How is taking Barkley any different?
Why cant i say- he better be Ezekiel Elliott or better?
In terms of relative value the QB drafted will be paid NFl backup mondy for 5 years. Barkley will be paid top 5 in NFL.
Can anyone guarantee that Barkley is a top 5 NFL RB?
say it. Then we definitely would have to pick Barkley. Cause yeah, Ill guarantee it.
If Browns take a QB if the Jets offered next years 1 (should be a top 10) pick). Or would you need more players etc?
I'd do it just for their 1 next year if DG doesn't want a QB.
It accomplishes a few things IMO:
Forces the Browns hand even further to take a QB at 1, and ensures whatever guy DG does want is still there at 3.
It makes the #3 even more valuable now to a team who wants a QB (Denver) and could get us another 1 next year + other picks.
That could leave us with a Costner/Draft Day type of scenario. Adding two #1's next year, plus, and still getting one of Barkley,Chubb,Nelson or Fitzpatrick at 5!
This would be my ideal draft day scenario.
What if John Dorsey call and says, Im eating my pancakes and thinking about moving No. 1?
Taking the wrong QB and being so stubborn you can't see it for 4 years does...
The Giants GM doesn't agree with you.
but he also said you go for the yellow jacket guy. That would conflict with not taking a RB that high. So the GM is likely going to backtrack in some ways. Either by taking a potential mediocre QB or passing on a HoF player.
we agree on everything but the word talent. Im frankly sick of reading it on this board but theres nothing I can do about it. You said we need to draft a QB as talented as Eli and I really dont think thats realistic. Too many good QBs have been drafted in the top 3 over he last several yeRs that werent the same caliber prospect as Eli was coming out.
My entire point is that a slightly less talented QB than Eli can have a HoF career. That is why I dont care about the DG quotes, it could mean several different things.
I've been leading the call for drafting a QB for quite some time... but this is the vibe coming out of the Giants... and I don't think it is just Dottino blowing smoke...
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
Now if the Giants feel Darnold or Rosen have the ability to be regular Pro Bowl-type quarterbacks, you take one of them. If you don't, you pass on the guy. You don't just take the QB. (And I've been the guy for months around here who has been leading the charge on drafting a QB).
I am good with this section of your post Eric.
And for the record, I have been quite vocal about the ABSOLUTE NEED to draft a QB; the ability to do so because there are future pro bowlers in this draft, imv; and teams don't find themselves at #2 very often.
they better sound out the smoke signals. The Jets can easily move up to #1 to jump us. Cleveland with #3 and #4 can still get their guy and deal further.
If the Jets try that, Cleveland will t t a kings ransom in spite of ANY of various charts' values; they already sold out RDS 1 & 2 in 18, and 2 in 19. They'd have to sell the 1 and 3 in 19 and the 1 in'20 I would think. If so they better be right about the QB.
As much as I love Eli, thats my opinion after watching the last couple years. I would say both Darnold and Rosen are at least equal to Eli when he came out, Darnold with a higher ceiling than Eli had and even say Rosen may look even better as a prospect right now than Eli did in 04. A rebuild means nothing without the quarterback, and with the price at such a premium for a QB, the Giants should stay where they are and grab one. I dont care how many picks are being offered. Nothing will equal locking up a QB for the next 10 years if you hit on it.
I've been leading the call for drafting a QB for quite some time... but this is the vibe coming out of the Giants... and I don't think it is just Dottino blowing smoke...
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
honestly think that they feel that the class is too flawed to get requisite value or, possibly, everyone but Rosen is too flawed and Rosen is a longevity risk they would prefer not to take.
RE: RE: I am with Uconn on this. Taking the wrong QB at #2 doesn't
Barkley is an excellent prospect but get real. He has not shown that he is an every down back. He doesn't get his yards between the tackles. He is not Zeke Elliott. Sure maybe he is better but he is more of a Reggie Bush type back, but bigger. He makes his yards laterally and with his transcendent athleticism. But how long do those backs last? He is not really a banger so if they run him to the sidelines he can be frustrated. How good was Bush?
The pick is to take a chance on a QB. If the choice is between Wentz and Zeke, you take Wentz every time if you need a QB.
Somebody started drinking early for St. Patrick's Day.
If Browns take a QB if the Jets offered next years 1 (should be a top 10) pick). Or would you need more players etc?
I'd do it just for their 1 next year if DG doesn't want a QB.
It accomplishes a few things IMO:
Forces the Browns hand even further to take a QB at 1, and ensures whatever guy DG does want is still there at 3.
It makes the #3 even more valuable now to a team who wants a QB (Denver) and could get us another 1 next year + other picks.
That could leave us with a Costner/Draft Day type of scenario. Adding two #1's next year, plus, and still getting one of Barkley,Chubb,Nelson or Fitzpatrick at 5!
This would be my ideal draft day scenario.
What if John Dorsey call and says, Im eating my pancakes and thinking about moving No. 1?
Haha. I teed it up for you and you knocked it right down the fairway. Well played.
Seriously, if that happened I'd hear him out but I don't want the Giants moving up and giving up assets.
I want them either taking their guy at 2, or adding more assets to move back no farther than 5. It would be great if DG could swing a couple of trades to move back a couple of spots if they move from #2.
When looked at in its totality, Eli's career is a weird one. In terms of regular-season W-L production and "great seasons", he never lived up to the hype. He had one MVP-like season with a couple of legit Pro Bowl type seasons. But he will likely only go into the HOF because of his passing total numbers (a product of simply being durable and playing so long) and his EXTRAORDINARY playoff runs in 2007 and 2011. He was completely worth the trade in 2004 only because of those two playoff runs.
But if you take a QB at #1 or #2, you are expecting to draft a guy who will be an elite QB in this league. That's the expectation.
gives the coaches and front office a year to evaluate Webb. If Webb doesn't work out, the Giants have two number one picks to trade up for the best choice next year.
i think you are getting confused with people who are disagreeing with you, but they understand the situation at hand. For instance, it's entirely possible to understand that the Giants could probably get a massive haul, but still want to stand pat and take Barkley. That's where I'm at. I think he's that good.
I dont disagree. But again, you originally talked about HoF talent and I think that comment by DG is being taken far too literally. You dont need HoF talent to be a HoFer.
you can get a massive haul of picks doesn't mean you have to do it. So now if they don't want a QB that means they automatically have to trade back because of the great picks they'll get? They don't have to. They can stay at 2 and take the best RB prospect the draft has seen in a few decades.
You are basically altering your argument to fit your narrative that the Giants must draft Rosen.
I am not saying the Giants should or shouldn't draft any particular player. I'm merely pointing out that the premium will always be placed on the QB. Now you add the HUGE turn of events that the TRADE value of our #2 pick just went WAY UP.
Somebody started drinking early for St. Patrick's Day.
Nope I am being real. Barley isnot a slam dunk HoF. Peopel are talking here like he is. He is an excellent prospect who earns his yards flying outside and leaping over defenders - in college. In the pros if you do that you get hurt or fail. He has not shown he is a banger like Zeke. Sorry but people are going too far that Barkley is a slam dunk.
I've been leading the call for drafting a QB for quite some time... but this is the vibe coming out of the Giants... and I don't think it is just Dottino blowing smoke...
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
Are the Giants telegraphing again? I had a whole post on this - Giants Not Telegraphing Moves Anymore- BBI Act Accordingly. I linked it.
To use your own logic, tbe Giants "have " to have 1 QB above others that they want.
If thats the case, they cannot telegraph because they dont control that destiny. Cleveland does. The Giants must be cloak & dagger or risk having a trade there.
Its still way early in the process. Indy can afford pulling the trigger early since they have Luck, and they are still within striking distance for Chubb.
It would be foolish for the Giants to make such a move now without even completing pro day/interview evaluations.
Id find it odd that all the teams want to trade up desperately for one of these QBs but the Giants think theyre garbage? Doesnt add up
It's not a question of evaluating the QBs as "garbage." It's evaluating each one against the potential haul of blue chip/quality players at positions of need. I agree with Eric: unless you have an unshakeable conviction on a QB available at 2, you make the trade with whichever team is desperate to move up. Also, if Giants have such a conviction on one of the QBs Browns draft him at 1, you don't take another one as a consolation prize. You make the deal.
Jets, and hopefully the Bills, can smell Patriots blood spilling with all the recent rumors and failures in Foxboro the last 5 months. Bills would be better off picking( but if they have a wood for a QB and will tank for the future I'd at least listen).
correct value went way up. I agree now it takes more to get the pick or we stay pat. Thats why I say this only helps the Giants. We just have to sit and listen. We also have more than 15 min (on the clock) to make a decision.
that's where i think people are missing the boat on this If Giants new brass loves Webb, why in the hell would they draft another QB when they could take Barkley or trade down and get a shitload of picks, plus another 1st rounder?
If they really like Webb and have conviction on him, there's no possible scenario where they would draft a QB.
you can get a massive haul of picks doesn't mean you have to do it. So now if they don't want a QB that means they automatically have to trade back because of the great picks they'll get? They don't have to. They can stay at 2 and take the best RB prospect the draft has seen in a few decades.
Or see if the Jets are willing to give up next year's #1 to move up to #2.
If I'm DG, I'm letting it out here I want a QB at 2. Either force the Jets to not settle for the 3rd QB or other teams who want one to get antsy. I'd start with the Jets first and then Denver. Maybe both if it fell right.
DG - turn the 2>3, and then the 3>5. IMO, in that scenario of QBs going 1,2,and 3 Barkley could still be there at 5. Not guaranteed but possible especially if the Browns are interested in Chubb as has been rumored.
you guys have to also keep in mind is that the odds are that 2 or 3 of the top guys picked in this draft are not going to be outstanding football players. Go back and look at all of the drafts and who was taking with the top five picks. Again, you can't live/draft in fear, but NO ONE in this draft is a sure bet. Not any of the QBs, not Barkley, not Nelson, not Chubb, etc.
There is a vibe out there that the Giants may not take a QB at #2. I would if I had a conviction on the guy. Because think Eli is near done.
But if someone calls Gettleman and says we will give you multiple picks in this and future drafts, I think you have to seriously listen. We have five picks. This team needs a lot of help. What if you could ensure having two #1s this year and 2019 plus an extra #2?
correct value went way up. I agree now it takes more to get the pick or we stay pat. Thats why I say this only helps the Giants. We just have to sit and listen. We also have more than 15 min (on the clock) to make a decision.
Carl, I honestly would wait until the Giants are on the clock. Remember how Accorsi discussed the conversations on draft day with the Eli trade? The longer the Giants wait, the more than can get. If they don't get a great deal, you take the player.
I've been leading the call for drafting a QB for quite some time... but this is the vibe coming out of the Giants... and I don't think it is just Dottino blowing smoke...
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
this is supposed to mean what in your view? That a QB is off the table? please...
I've been leading the call for drafting a QB for quite some time... but this is the vibe coming out of the Giants... and I don't think it is just Dottino blowing smoke...
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
you guys have to also keep in mind is that the odds are that 2 or 3 of the top guys picked in this draft are not going to be outstanding football players. Go back and look at all of the drafts and who was taking with the top five picks.
Right. But that doesn't mean you still don't just take your guy at 2. You think Gettleman is saying to himself "gee we should probably take this trade offer because there's a decent chance whoever we take at 2 won't be good"? That could happen with any pick Eric.
As much as I love Eli, thats my opinion after watching the last couple years. I would say both Darnold and Rosen are at least equal to Eli when he came out, Darnold with a higher ceiling than Eli had and even say Rosen may look even better as a prospect right now than Eli did in 04. A rebuild means nothing without the quarterback, and with the price at such a premium for a QB, the Giants should stay where they are and grab one. I dont care how many picks are being offered. Nothing will equal locking up a QB for the next 10 years if you hit on it.
Would you be happy if the Giants came away with Nelson and additional #1 and/or #2 picks in 2018/2019? I would.
Problem is trading to 12. Nelson won't be there. I have no issue trading back if you stay in top 10.. but to move to 12, you lose all shot at Nelson or any blue chip player. Maybe Denver at 5? That might be perfect.
People should stop thinking this way. Blue chips, red chips...there is a grade on every guy. There is a PERCEIVED drop off in talent at some point. I believe 4 QBs will be taken in the top 11 picks, maybe in the top 5 picks. Then you have Barkley, Chubb, Minkah and Nelson, as the consensus top 4 elite players. But nobody knows how the draft is going to shake out.
Where was Zack Martin drafted? Odell was taken 12th, right? OBJ is a HOF-level talent. Who says at 12 that Tremaine Edmunds or Vita Vea or Roquan Smith won't make the HOF? What about Mike McGlinchey, Derwin James, or Joshua Jackson?
There is a lot of talent. Sure, I would love Barkley, but what if instead of one superb talent, I got 3 very good talents, that all could start, and perhaps at least one of them actually IS a superb talent that in retrospect would've been drafted sooner?
It's not about quantity over quality. It's about the quality of the quantity over the 1 quality player.
If I can get Roquan Smith, a guard like Isaiah Wynn, and a RB like Rashaad Penny with the picks I get for trading out of the opportunity to get one Saquon Barkley? And then I ALSO get the opportunity to have an EXTRA high first round draft pick next year? You have to consider that may be a smarter thing to do than just to take the one player like Barkley or Nelson.
But if you take a QB at #1 or #2, you are expecting to draft a guy who will be an elite QB in this league. That's the expectation. [/quote]
I really dont understand this argument. Do you think anyone takes a player at 2 and doesnt think they will be elite at that position?
Was Greg Robinson taken at #2 in 2015 with the expectation hed be an average OL? Or was he supposed to be an average OT? Or was he supposed to be franchise LT for a decade?
I expect any player to be elite that we draft at #2. what I find perplexing is that everyone seems to only find flaws at QB and therefore that these other guys will just solve our other needs with no risk of bust.
Barkley, Nelson, Chubb, Fitzpatrick , etc. Whoever. If taken at 2 they will have the expectation of being elite
And the fact is - they could bust. Just as easily as a QB. Every pick is a risk.
Gettleman said, when you start to get cute, that's when you miss out on a potential HOF pick. Don't get cute here. There's 2-3 players we can select at #2 who are not only elite prospects, but incredibly clean as well.
that's where i think people are missing the boat on this If Giants new brass loves Webb, why in the hell would they draft another QB when they could take Barkley or trade down and get a shitload of picks, plus another 1st rounder?
If they really like Webb and have conviction on him, there's no possible scenario where they would draft a QB.
I agree. Webb has a lot to do with this. If the Giants evaluation is that he is as good as anyone coming out, then they can focus their draft on a starting RB who could be great or they could trade down and get a load of picks to fill multiple holes. This is an advantage we have if Webb can be the guy. If they don't think Webb is as good, then draft a QB.
I am not a fan of having Webb battle it out with the #2 pick if he is a QB. That is a waste. We'd have two top picks sitting on the bench for two years, and you know only one will get real reps (likely the #2 guy). Its a falicy that we could "develop" two backup QBs. If we pick a QB then I say package Webb in a trade for a pick or something else.
if the Broncos give DG a call soon. Jets just jumped them in the QB race, and if they want one of Allen, Darnold or Rosen, no guarantee that they're anymore.
+1.
Was just gonna post that idea. A QB at either 1 or 4, 1@ #3 a likely 1 @ #2, and betting you can duplicate the Keenum magic for 1 or 2 years and hope you get to be able to acquire a QB in the next 2 drafts, or another rental from someone's bench, is a diminishing op for success; unless you are not in love with 1 or 2 QBs in '18.
Denver has holes, and how long can Von Miller play? I don't think Denver trades up, will fill holes,and go from there. Hope I am wrong and JE loves a couple of guys.
twosteps... I don't even know what you're arguing about at this point. I'm not following you. I think I've made my position clear. If the Giants scouts love a QB at #2, you draft him. If they don't, you have to seriously consider moving down. But to love that QB, they have to think he will be an outstanding player, not just a guy. That's all I'm saying.
Jimmy Googs... it's not just Dottino... there are whispers out there the team isn't going QB. Could be smoke. Could be bunk. But they are out there.
fucking happens - this is great stuff. Giants own the keys to the draft at this point
^^^^ THIS IS THE KEY POINT ^^^^^
As long as I've been a Giants fan, the team has never been in this position before.
If Reese were still the GM today then you wouldnt feel this way.
The reason the Giants are in a much better place now is b/c ownership finally got rid of Reese and McAdoo, and hired a competent GM. Who in turn hired a competent coach.
RE: It better be at least 2 first round picks in 19 and 20
I dont see any scenario in which the Browns dont take a QB at #1.
And I think Barkley is the BPA in this draft, period. I badly want him to be the Giants pick at #2. Reaching for players like Pugh and Flowers is why the team is picking #2. Dont force a pick for a QB.
Anyone else wonder why the Jets didnt make this trade closer to draft day? I guess they thought the price would go up?
I think Allen is the Jets guy.
Interesting. I think they like Rosen and are assuming that Darnold and Allen will go first. I also think the timing is interesting in that Rosen just had his pro day.
I'm thinking Rosen, or they may like Mayfield as well, but my gut tells me that Rosen is their top choice.
the Webb thing is very much underrated on this board. If Shurmur likes him, and likes him even more in a year or two of more schooling, there is NO WAY we will take a QB.
you guys have to also keep in mind is that the odds are that 2 or 3 of the top guys picked in this draft are not going to be outstanding football players. Go back and look at all of the drafts and who was taking with the top five picks.
Right. But that doesn't mean you still don't just take your guy at 2. You think Gettleman is saying to himself "gee we should probably take this trade offer because there's a decent chance whoever we take at 2 won't be good"? That could happen with any pick Eric.
But if you get 5 guys instead of one, the odds go up. I am not advocating it, but there is a certain bet hedging to having more picks.
twosteps... I don't even know what you're arguing about at this point. I'm not following you. I think I've made my position clear. If the Giants scouts love a QB at #2, you draft him. If they don't, you have to seriously consider moving down. But to love that QB, they have to think he will be an outstanding player, not just a guy. That's all I'm saying.
Jimmy Googs... it's not just Dottino... there are whispers out there the team isn't going QB. Could be smoke. Could be bunk. But they are out there.
You dont move down unless the price is right. And it better be a serious haul to move down. If Barkley wasnt in the draft its different. But hes the best player in the draft. By far.
RE: RE: It better be at least 2 first round picks in 19 and 20
I dont see any scenario in which the Browns dont take a QB at #1.
And I think Barkley is the BPA in this draft, period. I badly want him to be the Giants pick at #2. Reaching for players like Pugh and Flowers is why the team is picking #2. Dont force a pick for a QB.
Anyone else wonder why the Jets didnt make this trade closer to draft day? I guess they thought the price would go up?
I think Allen is the Jets guy.
Interesting. I think they like Rosen and are assuming that Darnold and Allen will go first. I also think the timing is interesting in that Rosen just had his pro day.
I'm thinking Rosen, or they may like Mayfield as well, but my gut tells me that Rosen is their top choice.
Who would be taking which QB? Darnold seems like he's always referred to as a Browns favorite, so Allen to the Giants? Or Allen to a team who trades with the Giants for 2?
the "value chart" goes out the window when trading up for a QB. The Eagles traded up for Wentz and gave up MORE than the Jets did, and everyone said the Eagles overpaid. How does it look for them now?
My point is you have to way (1) the strength of your convictions about a guy, vs (2) the amount of premium picks you may receive in return if you have the slightest doubt.
Michael Strahan was a #2 pick. So was Chris Snee. You can get outstanding football players anywhere in the draft. Now if you have a supreme conviction on a player at #2, you take him. But if are not 100 percent convinced, and a team offers two #1s and one or two #2s, you can turn your roster around very quickly with that.
If the Giants think Rosen is likely to be an impact player in this league. Pick him. But if they don't like his health history, character, etc., you'd have to listen to other offers.
that's where i think people are missing the boat on this If Giants new brass loves Webb, why in the hell would they draft another QB when they could take Barkley or trade down and get a shitload of picks, plus another 1st rounder?
If they really like Webb and have conviction on him, there's no possible scenario where they would draft a QB.
'If they have conviction on Webb' is a big if. What they say they like about him are the same things people in those jobs said they loved about Ryan Nassib. I'm not dismissing it completely, but are we just taking it on faith that Jerry Reese hit a home run here? It'd be the first time he was ever right on a QB and one of the few times he was right in that round.
the "value chart" goes out the window when trading up for a QB. The Eagles traded up for Wentz and gave up MORE than the Jets did, and everyone said the Eagles overpaid. How does it look for them now?
completely 100% agree. That's why I ultimately think they will not trade down. I imagine they have 100% conviction on Barkley. The QBs...I'm not entirely sure. I think they'd love Darnold more than anyone, but Rosen looks so damn good throwing the ball.
If that future second rounder was a future first rounder
That would have probably been good enough to get to our spot at #2. Sixth pick aint bad at all if it gets you an xtra second this year and xtra 1 next year. IMO it would just suck if you are are at 6th and the top 5 goes Rosen, Darnold, Barkley, Chubb, Nelson. Those are the blue chippers IMO. Indy doesnt want or need a QB. Unless Chubb, Barkley or Nelson is their at 6 I expect them to look for another trade down partner.
that's where i think people are missing the boat on this If Giants new brass loves Webb, why in the hell would they draft another QB when they could take Barkley or trade down and get a shitload of picks, plus another 1st rounder?
If they really like Webb and have conviction on him, there's no possible scenario where they would draft a QB.
'If they have conviction on Webb' is a big if. What they say they like about him are the same things people in those jobs said they loved about Ryan Nassib. I'm not dismissing it completely, but are we just taking it on faith that Jerry Reese hit a home run here? It'd be the first time he was ever right on a QB and one of the few times he was right in that round.
Exactly how I feel about Webb. People are counting on a Reese 2nd round pick, at QB to pan out? Wow.
when some people need to be dragged kicking and screaming to even agree with the idea that these QBs are actually really good prospects.
Right off the top you're starting from two different zip codes.
I have a different take. It's hard to have a discussion on this when some are absolutely convinced that they know for a fact that the QB or RB are sure bets. There are no sure bets. It's a subjective process and the NFL graveyard is littered with failed top 5 picks. Again, you can't live in fear as a team - you have to trust your scouts. But I have no idea which player in this draft will be the best player in the NFL. And no one on this thread does either, despite what they say.
what would be hilarious is if Reese was right about Webb and handed us a franchise QB in the 3rd round on his way out the door.
That would be beyond a blessing for us as Giants fans. The two things about Webb that are great that might not be great about the kids this year are his health and his demeanor.
RE: I think Buffalo trading with CLE at 4 makes sense
I'm not exactly saying Barkley is a "sure thing." But he's about 99.9% of the way there. There is absolutely zero chance he is a bust unless he has a serious injury.
the Webb thing is very much underrated on this board. If Shurmur likes him, and likes him even more in a year or two of more schooling, there is NO WAY we will take a QB.
I feel safe in saying that shurmur and DG have Webb in their thoughts when it comes to drafting a qb. They didnt draft Webb and havent seen him practice. Hes a near non factor that could become a factor if and when. And no sooner.
AND their top 4 picks in this draft (12, 22, 53, 56) from Buffalo if they want #2. If they want to throw in Kelvin Benjamin or Shady McCoy as a bonus, fine.
I'm not exactly saying Barkley is a "sure thing." But he's about 99.9% of the way there. There is absolutely zero chance he is a bust unless he has a serious injury.
I love Barkley. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard "there is no way this guy can be a bust" and then he ends up being a bust.
Not only does it kind of force the Browns to take a QB at 1 instead of nabbing Barkley there and waiting until 4 for their QB, but it raises the value of the Giants pick even more. Amazing.
Even if Cleveland does go with Barkley at 1, which is really doubtful now, whoever wants to desperately trade up will get the top QB in the draft ahead of the Jets. The Giants are either walking away with Barkley, whoever they think the best QB in this draft is or a huge haul from a team that is desperate for a franchise QB. I guess the first two things were always going to happen but the third is basically assured now as well. If they want to trade down which I'm not fully convinced of.
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
What if you get a deal where you trade down, get the top OL in the draft, then use the extra #1 (or perhaps one of your #2s) on another OL?
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
i have been saying this for 2 months. If we were to trade with Cleveland and get the 2 second rounders 33 & 35 we could fix our OL, get a LB and RB and a CB in the first 2 days of the draft
As Barkley. The fact that he played behind a sh*tty online only gives me greater comfort as a game changing player. He is not a guy playing on a dominant offense - instead he is the offense. Of course, he could get hurt, but so could any player you draft.
But trading down for a huge haul spreads the risk. Happy whichever way the Giants play it
are good prospects. There will be 3 QB's picked in the four picks and maybe four in the first 5 picks. Look at the draft over the last 40 years. Ask yourself how many times has that happened? We have teams doing handstands to try to move up in this draft with the Jets being the latest. Do you think they are moving up to get anything other than a QB???? We have the best RB prospect perhaps ever...are teams moving up to get him? Answer is no. These QB prospects are VERY, VERY good prospects! We need to take the one we like!
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
Bush was 200 pounds and was not the every down back in college that Barkley was. Not a fair comparison.
1. Browns.........QB
2. Giants...........? (Barkley or QB)
3. Jets...............QB
4. Browns.........? (Barkley or Chubb)
5. Denver..........QB
6. Colts.............? (Chubb or Nelson)
Miami at 11, Buffalo at 12 and Arizona at 15 still could be in play to get in the QB sweepstakes.
Buffalo is the only team with the Treasure Chest in place to move into the top 4. And it will cost a Treasure Chest full of picks. No threes or lower. Send your ones and twos.
You want a QB, pay me.
Don't see AZ moving with the Bradford&Pugh signings, just rebuilding. See Miami rebuilding as well. Unless Bills think one of these kids can win Immediately AND they can compete still with what they have, they likely keep the picks
to improve overall, or trade for Foles using picks for a providen( if only a short term proven).
There are 4 QBs available. if they dont like a single one of them then you need new scouts.
This is clearly one of the best QB classes in years. There is clearly a massive QB market on these guys, The overwhelming likelihood is that 4 QBs go top 10 and probably top 5.
Unless you think our scouts are some how the leagues best scouts and can intuit that all 4 will not be very good, which we have a terrible recent history of .
The question is not whether or not our scouts like 1 of these guys.
The question is whether or not you think we Need a QB or not.
if the answer is yes. Then you draft a QB and you can decide which one you like best.
The reason this is the question is because if you are wrong. And you need a QB. very shortly you will find yourself not being able to have the luxury to ask the question of do my scouts like this QB and you will have to draft or pay or trade for whoever happens to become available.
You will find yourself desperate to trade anything to move up to get whoever is there. Giving up multiple 1s.
You will find yourself paying 80+ mil to the Kirk Cousins guaranteed if they happen to be available.
You will find yourself needing to trade for backups and hoping they can do it.
Right now, the Giants have the rare luxury of deciding which QB they like. They have a choice.
If we are wrong about not needing one. They will be wishing for the opportunity to get whoever happens to be available.
RE: Jets are fucked I think, too soon to make this move.
Webb - if they feel great about him as a prospect i.e. => the 2018 draft-able prospects, then great....feel free to trade him for a haul. For example: to Buffalo for 12, 16, both their 2s and Nathan Peterman (I'd want two bites at the QB of the future apple, but more likely, Peterman is a long time # 2).
If not Webb, the they likely have 3 QBs to choose from of the 4 top guys.
With Eli nearly done, with next years QBs class being lousy, with no sense of when we will be in this situation again (sitting nearly atop the draft with multiple options), they do not have the luxury of getting cute.
Webb - if they feel great about him as a prospect i.e. => the 2018 draft-able prospects, then great....feel free to trade him for a haul. For example: to Buffalo for 12, 16, both their 2s and Nathan Peterman (I'd want two bites at the QB of the future apple, but more likely, Peterman is a long time # 2).
If not Webb, the they likely have 3 QBs to choose from of the 4 top guys.
With Eli nearly done, with next years QBs class being lousy, with no sense of when we will be in this situation again (sitting nearly atop the draft with multiple options), they do not have the luxury of getting cute.
because of this Jets move, people will underestimate the fact that Barkley is still far and away not only the best athlete by a wide margin in this draft but also the best prospect/player in the draft with the least likelihood of becoming a bust. That hasn't changed.
RE: Jets are fucked I think, too soon to make this move.
are good prospects. There will be 3 QB's picked in the four picks and maybe four in the first 5 picks. Look at the draft over the last 40 years. Ask yourself how many times has that happened? We have teams doing handstands to try to move up in this draft with the Jets being the latest. Do you think they are moving up to get anything other than a QB???? We have the best RB prospect perhaps ever...are teams moving up to get him? Answer is no. These QB prospects are VERY, VERY good prospects! We need to take the one we like!
that's where i think people are missing the boat on this If Giants new brass loves Webb, why in the hell would they draft another QB when they could take Barkley or trade down and get a shitload of picks, plus another 1st rounder?
If they really like Webb and have conviction on him, there's no possible scenario where they would draft a QB.
I agree. Webb has a lot to do with this. If the Giants evaluation is that he is as good as anyone coming out, then they can focus their draft on a starting RB who could be great or they could trade down and get a load of picks to fill multiple holes. This is an advantage we have if Webb can be the guy. If they don't think Webb is as good, then draft a QB.
I am not a fan of having Webb battle it out with the #2 pick if he is a QB. That is a waste. We'd have two top picks sitting on the bench for two years, and you know only one will get real reps (likely the #2 guy). Its a falicy that we could "develop" two backup QBs. If we pick a QB then I say package Webb in a trade for a pick or something else.
I agree. The thought of Webb and the drafted QB fighting it out is not a reality. Especially with Eli on the team.
RE: RE: Enough with people questioning if these QB propsects
are good prospects. There will be 3 QB's picked in the four picks and maybe four in the first 5 picks. Look at the draft over the last 40 years. Ask yourself how many times has that happened? We have teams doing handstands to try to move up in this draft with the Jets being the latest. Do you think they are moving up to get anything other than a QB???? We have the best RB prospect perhaps ever...are teams moving up to get him? Answer is no. These QB prospects are VERY, VERY good prospects! We need to take the one we like!
Like 1999?
Prospects bust, QBs bust. It doesn't mean you don't take them. Also, that class wasn't nearly as bad as you're alluding to. McNabb was a very good QB, getting a player of his caliber at 2 wouldn't be the worst. Culpepper was promising young QB who had his knee torn apart and wasn't the same.
Guys, no one love Barkley more than me. If there is no QB he is the best player in the draft. He runs inside, outside, is an elite pass catcher, GREAT blocker and he runs back kicks. Plus #1 guy as far a s character. So you are getting a guy who fills ALL the roles in RB by committee + all in one pick.......BUT
I know you all Remember Herschel Walker???? Minnesota should get credit for making that Cowboys team so good. If someone is going to offer a king's ransom, you got to take it. I still think you win with a great QB and line play ......... we could rebuild the interior of our line, find a RT, another linebacker or pass rusher, and still get a RB who will contribute. How many great players slip to the top of round 2? A lot.
If Cleveland takes a QB we still control the draft....we are in great position and this is exciting. Plus you know there will be more unpredictability....somebody will do something and we will say WTF...didn't see that coming THIS IS FUN!
I've been leading the call for drafting a QB for quite some time... but this is the vibe coming out of the Giants... and I don't think it is just Dottino blowing smoke...
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
Are the Giants telegraphing again? I had a whole post on this - Giants Not Telegraphing Moves Anymore- BBI Act Accordingly. I linked it.
To use your own logic, tbe Giants "have " to have 1 QB above others that they want.
If thats the case, they cannot telegraph because they dont control that destiny. Cleveland does. The Giants must be cloak & dagger or risk having a trade there.
My post - ( New Window )
How many times are you going to reference your posts? We saw them. They were hard to miss because you posted like 5 threads a day. Shuttuo.
Guys, no one love Barkley more than me. If there is no QB he is the best player in the draft. He runs inside, outside, is an elite pass catcher, GREAT blocker and he runs back kicks. Plus #1 guy as far a s character. So you are getting a guy who fills ALL the roles in RB by committee + all in one pick.......BUT
I know you all Remember Herschel Walker???? Minnesota should get credit for making that Cowboys team so good. If someone is going to offer a king's ransom, you got to take it. I still think you win with a great QB and line play ......... we could rebuild the interior of our line, find a RT, another linebacker or pass rusher, and still get a RB who will contribute. How many great players slip to the top of round 2? A lot.
If Cleveland takes a QB we still control the draft....we are in great position and this is exciting. Plus you know there will be more unpredictability....somebody will do something and we will say WTF...didn't see that coming THIS IS FUN!
When the Vikings traded for Walker they already had their
franchise QB, Troy Aikman. I don't think when Franchise
QB is available, you trade down.
Making the trade this early, is it possible the Jets can trade out of this spot and get a better haul than what they gave up when it's seen who goes 1 & 2?
RE: RE: Keenum isn't giving you a consistent winner either
He won't kill your chances but he's not going to guarantee that you're a playoff contender year in and year out unless you stack the deck for him.
I think people misunderstood my point. Webb is a worlds better prospect than Keenum, and Keenum has had NFL success. That was my point
Prospect Keenum wasn't a great prospect. There's a list a mile long of shitty NFL QBs that were better prospects than Keenum too. It's a flawed perspective.
Weird to cite the vikings as an example of anything
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
Bush was 200 pounds and was not the every down back in college that Barkley was. Not a fair comparison.
Yes Bush is a fair comp for Barkley. True Barkley is a lot heavier but the combine numbers they posted are similar, including bench presses. And in style they are almost identical. With Barkley you are getting a back who wins with agility and speed. Not a banger like Zeke. I do like Barkley. I love him. But he is NOT CAN'T MISS. If you need a QB you take the great QB prospect.. full stop.
There are 4 QBs available. if they dont like a single one of them then you need new scouts.
This is clearly one of the best QB classes in years. There is clearly a massive QB market on these guys, The overwhelming likelihood is that 4 QBs go top 10 and probably top 5.
Unless you think our scouts are some how the leagues best scouts and can intuit that all 4 will not be very good, which we have a terrible recent history of .
The question is not whether or not our scouts like 1 of these guys.
The question is whether or not you think we Need a QB or not.
if the answer is yes. Then you draft a QB and you can decide which one you like best.
The reason this is the question is because if you are wrong. And you need a QB. very shortly you will find yourself not being able to have the luxury to ask the question of do my scouts like this QB and you will have to draft or pay or trade for whoever happens to become available.
You will find yourself desperate to trade anything to move up to get whoever is there. Giving up multiple 1s.
You will find yourself paying 80+ mil to the Kirk Cousins guaranteed if they happen to be available.
You will find yourself needing to trade for backups and hoping they can do it.
Right now, the Giants have the rare luxury of deciding which QB they like. They have a choice.
If we are wrong about not needing one. They will be wishing for the opportunity to get whoever happens to be available.
Don't get cute. Get the QB. RBs grow on trees. I'm not even sure Barkley is the best RB in this class. I might rather have Guice.
Is it possible that people who spend time debating in hundreds of posts on the nfl draft weeks before it happens dont know that all the statistical evidence says top picks are vastly overrated?
A systemic strategy to always trade down in the draft is estimated to be worth 1.5 extra wins per season! Thats even when you dont have what is obviously an incredible bidding war primed up.
RE: Jets are fucked I think, too soon to make this move.
Wrong. You can find your quarterback at the bottom of the first round, or on day 2 or 3 of the draft just like any other position.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Case Keemun, even guys like Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco have been quarterbacks for winning teams and were not top 10 drafts picks. Thats not an exception to the rule, thats damn near half the starting quarterbacks in the league. If we dont like one of the 4 guys at the top of the draft you dont just settle to take one.
Take the best guy available whether its Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or one of the QBs. For all we know Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph, or Kyle Lauletta could be better than the QB we would take at 2.
important takeaway for me is the Jets willing to jump into the 3rd overall pick this early in the game. That means they have a very strong conviction in at least 3 QB's in this draft. Similar to the convictions shown by both the Rams and Eagles a couple of years ago making deals weeks prior to the draft, that QB class was something to jump for. This QB class is the same. The stars aligned for the Giants to have a great pick in a great QB class, hopefully they don't get stupid or cute and just take the gift that has fallen right into their lap.
Agree re. the conviction shown in this group of QBs, even if the NYG may not share it. Disagree with characterization as a "gift...fallen right into their lap." Took a lot of hard work by Reese/Ross to get us here.
This conversation is getting like politics or religion
I still don't think this is a great draft and who knows what next year brings. I don't like getting caught up in stocking picks. It's often referred to as "the currency of hope". You can feel great about what those picks represent in potential, but potential is all that they are.
Good post. Problem for the Giants is the team is roster poor and the QB situation is not good (Eli's age and decline and Webb as likely as not another Nassib). So, as to QBs, the strong conviction may have to bend, weaken.
I love Barkley. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard "there is no way this guy can be a bust" and then he ends up being a bust.
True. To me, without saying he "definitely" won't be a bust (which he won't...lol) Barkley is the safest, cleanest, elite level prospect in the draft.
But he not be the best NFL RB. Several commentators on NFLN are touting Sony Michel as a better pro prospect. Better vision and better ability to run between the Tackles.
RE: The idea that you have to spend a top 10 pick to get your QB is just
Wrong. You can find your quarterback at the bottom of the first round, or on day 2 or 3 of the draft just like any other position.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Case Keemun, even guys like Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco have been quarterbacks for winning teams and were not top 10 drafts picks. Thats not an exception to the rule, thats damn near half the starting quarterbacks in the league. If we dont like one of the 4 guys at the top of the draft you dont just settle to take one.
Take the best guy available whether its Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or one of the QBs. For all we know Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph, or Kyle Lauletta could be better than the QB we would take at 2.
Using Tom Brady is a bit misleading.
Dak Prescott sure didn't look like a franchise guy last year. That book is yet to be written
Case Keenum is a sixth-year veteran. 2017 was the first moment he's ever looked competent enough to stick to one team, and he had a meltdown game in a pretty inopportune time of the season.
And I think you want to aim a bit higher than Andy Dalton or even Flacco for your next QB.
RE: RE: The idea that you have to spend a top 10 pick to get your QB is just
Wrong. You can find your quarterback at the bottom of the first round, or on day 2 or 3 of the draft just like any other position.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Case Keemun, even guys like Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco have been quarterbacks for winning teams and were not top 10 drafts picks. Thats not an exception to the rule, thats damn near half the starting quarterbacks in the league. If we dont like one of the 4 guys at the top of the draft you dont just settle to take one.
Take the best guy available whether its Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or one of the QBs. For all we know Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph, or Kyle Lauletta could be better than the QB we would take at 2.
Using Tom Brady is a bit misleading.
Dak Prescott sure didn't look like a franchise guy last year. That book is yet to be written
Case Keenum is a sixth-year veteran. 2017 was the first moment he's ever looked competent enough to stick to one team, and he had a meltdown game in a pretty inopportune time of the season.
And I think you want to aim a bit higher than Andy Dalton or even Flacco for your next QB.
Agreed. And cant you just say that there are great DEs and DBs that are from later rounds?
We have the opportunity to fill the hardest position to fill in sports but because theres a few examples of being able to do it later in the draft we now shouldnt?
Im good with whatever DG decides but the logic above makes no sense.
because of this Jets move, people will underestimate the fact that Barkley is still far and away not only the best athlete by a wide margin in this draft but also the best prospect/player in the draft with the least likelihood of becoming a bust. That hasn't changed.
because of this Jets move, people will underestimate the fact that Barkley is still far and away not only the best athlete by a wide margin in this draft but also the best prospect/player in the draft with the least likelihood of becoming a bust. That hasn't changed.
at #4 on draft day to up the trade ante and guarantee they get the guy they want. That way we're still getting the guy we want plus some bonus picks. I say all this thinking
1) This QB class is generally overrated
2) The Giants hanging on to Eli tells me they're not going QB. He would have demanded to be shipped out if we were seriously going in another direction.
at #4 on draft day to up the trade ante and guarantee they get the guy they want. That way we're still getting the guy we want plus some bonus picks. I say all this thinking
1) This QB class is generally overrated
2) The Giants hanging on to Eli tells me they're not going QB. He would have demanded to be shipped out if we were seriously going in another direction.
1) says you
2) Eli has a huge cap hit for 2018 and him being here gives us flexibility on not only who to draft but not rushing the player into action if its a QB.
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
You can have all the generational talent in the world in the absolute prime of their careers at WR & RB
But if you have the equivalent of Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell, You arent winning anything
Tell that to the Vikings, who went to the NFC Championship game with an undrafted free agent at QB with the offensive coordinator who is now our HC.
And Latavius Murray/McKinnon at RB. Cuts both ways.
and usually when the QB at the top is a top QB, you know it. Theres one usually with an occasional Manning/Leaf debate that youve been waiting anxiously on for three years until graduation. And then, you have, likely like this year, qbs that go high merely because they are qbs. You can run into problems with a Leaf, but in the other case, you end up with Couches.
The bottom line is, do your homework and get a guy whose talent dictates his draft position and youll be much better off in the long run.
But, again, the characterization that these QBs are only going high
Because they're QBs is not accurate. They were talking about these players as top of the draft talent at this time last year before the 2017 season was played. The story of the 2017 Jets season was how needed to tank to position themselves for one of those guys.
But, again, the characterization that these QBs are only going high
Because they're QBs is not accurate. They were talking about these players as top of the draft talent at this time last year before the 2017 season was played. The story of the 2017 Jets season was how needed to tank to position themselves for one of those guys. 98.7 ESPN Radio was doing updates on Rosen and Darnold games at the start of the year because most people expected the Jets to have the season the Giants did and finally get their QB.
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes theyre different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
Wow. Then theres a lot of scouts needing to be canned
Although i can see Rosen, and I might have picked Rosen, if ability was the only comsideration. Hes no Barkley but if you had positional bonus points, it would have seemed justifiable.
Well this thread finally appears to be losing steam.
Wrong. You can find your quarterback at the bottom of the first round, or on day 2 or 3 of the draft just like any other position.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Case Keemun, even guys like Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco have been quarterbacks for winning teams and were not top 10 drafts picks. Thats not an exception to the rule, thats damn near half the starting quarterbacks in the league. If we dont like one of the 4 guys at the top of the draft you dont just settle to take one.
Take the best guy available whether its Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or one of the QBs. For all we know Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph, or Kyle Lauletta could be better than the QB we would take at 2.
Using Tom Brady is a bit misleading.
Dak Prescott sure didn't look like a franchise guy last year. That book is yet to be written
Case Keenum is a sixth-year veteran. 2017 was the first moment he's ever looked competent enough to stick to one team, and he had a meltdown game in a pretty inopportune time of the season.
And I think you want to aim a bit higher than Andy Dalton or even Flacco for your next QB.
Dak looks to be a good enough qb to win with. Is he a top 10 QB in the league? Probably not, but hes good enough to field a competitive team with and if you have the right guys around him can probably be the QB on a contender. As for Flacco, hes had one losing season in his career and won a Super Bowl. Andy Dalton is a 3 time Pro Bowler and has played in the post season 4 times. Both have had as much, if not more success than guys like Matt Stafford, Alex Smith, Sam Bradford, etc. that were taken at the top of the draft.
The point is, just because a quarterback isnt taken in the top 10 doesnt mean youre going to get Kent Graham/Danny Kanell level QB play. You can find good quarterbacks later in the draft just like at any other position, so just take the best player available.
they better sound out the smoke signals. The Jets can easily move up to #1 to jump us. Cleveland with #3 and #4 can still get their guy and deal further.
was that Webb was a 3rd round pick and some had him rated even higher than that. Big difference between Webb and a guy like Keenum.
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
do that exercise for every position in the NFL. Let me know how that goes.
Thats exactly the point. You can find good players at every position, including QB, every where in the draft so just take the best player available. Some of you are acting like this is the only opportunity that we will ever have to find our next quarterback, and that is not the case as evidenced by where all of the named players were picked.
Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10
Excluding last year because its too soon to tell with those guys:
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? Id say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Lets not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Elis replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
The giants had a higher than 3rd round grade on Webb
Now it was the previous guys so take it for what isnt worth.
Also, people go 3rd round so he must not be good. You just cant say that.
Dont forget, the plan for the team was *always* to play Eli two years and slide Webb in as a replacement. Just sucking and picking two, doesnt necessarily change that. Again, different management though. But that doesnt alter the logic.
RE: Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10
Excluding last year because its too soon to tell with those guys:
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? Id say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Lets not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Elis replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
You take the chance on landing Carson Wentz rather than getting a RB like Barkley who can easily bust out or get hurt. Barkley is not a sure thing. Personally I think Derrius Guice might be better. RBs are a dime a dozen.
The giants had a higher than 3rd round grade on Webb
Bill L : 5:36 pm : link : reply
Now it was the previous guys so take it for what isnt worth.
Which doesn't mean much.....a player picked after the second round by them?
Also, people go 3rd round so he must not be good. You just cant say that.
No......but the fact that they picked him, and then didn't display him, were they hiding something?
Dont forget, the plan for the team was *always* to play Eli two years and slide Webb in as a replacement. Just sucking and picking two, doesnt necessarily change that. Again, different management though. But that doesnt alter the logic.
How in the world do you have a plan for a qb to take over when you have no idea of what he is capable of?
With the firing of Mac and Reese, this team had the choice of a new plan.....which doesn't seem to be much different from plan of the last 6 years....that we are only one or two players away.....I can't see us not going QB with the second pick, to hedge the gamble that Gettleman is making....
I think Darnold will be special....so I have no issue drafting him.
But with that, I feel Shurmur's ability with QBs will have a major impact on what they do in the draft. Shurmur is going to feel he can win with Webb as he probably feels his offense and his skill set will have him playing well.
was that Webb was a 3rd round pick and some had him rated even higher than that. Big difference between Webb and a guy like Keenum.
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
"Davis Webb's got a live arm. He drops it in the bucket. Moves well enough, quick release, big arm. He's one of the five quarterbacks where you can make a case in this draft that they can start a game in the NFL and be a quarterback." -- Mike Mayock
During the fall, some team sources told WalterFootball.com that there were some area scouts for the west coast who had a higher grade on Davis Webb than they had given to Jared Goff a year earlier. While Goff was the No. 1-overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, there were teams that had him graded much later and didn't like him as a prospect. Still, it was nice acclaim for Webb to be graded higher than Goff and validated Webb status as am NFL prospect.
Davis Webb: Another QB Enters the Round 1 Conversation "Six weeks before the draft, Webb is a legitimate second-round candidate, and its feasible that, come the last weekend in April, he will be billed as someones quarterback of the future." SportsIllustrated
Senior Bowl executive director Phil Savage reports that "[t]he [Cal QB] Davis Webb talk is legit as far as [the] first round."
Savage relays that he has "had several NFL people tell [him] that [Webb] is the guy they would want to coach." We have heard a consistent bubbling of rumor around the possibility of Webb landing in the first round as the pre-draft process hits its stretch run. At the end of March, Pete Prisco of CBS Sports likewise heard that steam was picking up toward a Day 1 selection. Webb, himself, has said that teams in the double-digits have told him he is a first-round talent. If he isn't swept off the board by the end of Round 1, he will almost certainly find an NFL home early in Round 2.
An NFL scout says Cal QB Davis Webb "has Dak-like intangibles."
Webb's stock is surging at the right time. NFL Network's Ian Rapoport "wouldn't be surprised to see a team trade back into round 1" for Webb, a sentiment we've read on multiple occasions over the past 10 days. Draft Analyst's Tony Pauline reported Tuesday that if the Browns don't take UNC's Mitchell Trubisky in Round 1, Webb is "likely to be the target" with the No. 33 selection.
One NFL personnel executive believes that Clemson QB Deshaun Watson and Cal QB Davis Webb will be the only quarterbacks selected on Day 1 of the draft.
Well that would be a weird combo. Color us surprised if UNC QB Mitchell Trubisky is still available at the end of the first round. "I am sticking to my Webb guns," the executive insisted. "He's the second-best QB in this class. I have read the Trubisky and Mahomes buzz. Not sure if I believe it." This came about from an informal poll of five insiders by NFL Media's Daniel Jeremiah to gauge just how many quarterbacks might be taken in Round 1. The most optimistic executive forwarded the possibility of four gunslingers going off the board by the end of April 27. Three is probably the safest bet.
The MMQB's Albert Breer mentioned Cal's Davis Webb as one of five QBs who has a chance of being selected in the first round.
We would be more than stunned if this happens. Webb is not close to being ready for the NFL. He was arguably the best quarterback at the Senior Bowl... but the competition was less than ideal. Webb has a big arm, but has only played out of the Air Raid system, a system with a playbook of five to seven concepts that passers master (see Jared Goff). Even if it is not a first round selection, Webb seems destined for a second day pick.
Pick a qb or trade down. I know that the Jets didn't trade all that to move up with the opportunity to select Barkley. Quarterbacks have so much greater value and it's not like we don't need one. Also, it is not like there aren't goo prospects out there. Quarterbacks have a higher degree of busts but you have to risk it. When are we going to pick this high again? Hopefully never.
do that exercise for every position in the NFL. Let me know how that goes.
Thats exactly the point. You can find good players at every position, including QB, every where in the draft so just take the best player available. Some of you are acting like this is the only opportunity that we will ever have to find our next quarterback, and that is not the case as evidenced by where all of the named players were picked.
And the point you are missing is that the further away from a top pick you get he harder it is to find a starting QB, let alone a great one. If thats the case why wouldnt you maximize your ability to get a QB which happens to be the hardest and most expensive to fill?
Several posters showed the bust rate of QBs per round, it gets exponentially worse the further down you go.
that would be best possible scenario for the Giants. They arent passing on their top QB which, IMO, is one of Darnold or Rosen, probably Darnold. We would have to flat out not like these QBs to take Barkley over both. I dont think thats very realistic.
If Darnold is gone, maybe that happens.
I think the Jets are looking at Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen
They will draft one of these three. If I'm the Giants, I take either Darnold or Allen. I'm not interested in Mayfield, and the more film I see of Barkley, the more convinced I am that he is not Emmitt Smith, and to be taken 2nd overall, he better be that good. Should the Giants' consider trading their 2nd overall for a basket of ones and twos? Possibly. My problem is that I'm not sure what to make of Webb. He's tall, has good vision, has a nice touch, and is willing to work hard, but he strikes me as somewhat frail and he's not very mobile.
because of this Jets move, people will underestimate the fact that Barkley is still far and away not only the best athlete by a wide margin in this draft but also the best prospect/player in the draft with the least likelihood of becoming a bust. That hasn't changed.
Your opinion.
Not just me.
No, youre the one stating your opinion like it were fact. But we will see on draft day, now wont we?
If we trade back with the Browns we still get Nelson. That is the move! A bushel full of picks AND the best player in the draft at 4. That is the move!
So, again, we're just going to buy Jerry Reese just smacked a home run
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
Giving up three 2nds to take a RB is just stupid. But it is the Jets and if Darnold and Rosen are gone, its possible.
The Jets made the move because they'd be happy with either Darnold, Rosen or Allen.
If they didn't think this way they would have never made the move.
This is pretty clear to me.
IMO it says they are fine with Darnold, Rosen, Allen OR Mayfield. You don't know how their board stacks up and I could easily see Rosen or Allen as #4 on some boards.
Mayfield showed well at the combine and granted I've heard the criticism that he was trying to throw hard but Mayfield throwing at higher velocity than Rosen isn't insignificant.
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
RE: I think the Jets are looking at Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen
They will draft one of these three. If I'm the Giants, I take either Darnold or Allen. I'm not interested in Mayfield, and the more film I see of Barkley, the more convinced I am that he is not Emmitt Smith, and to be taken 2nd overall, he better be that good. Should the Giants' consider trading their 2nd overall for a basket of ones and twos? Possibly. My problem is that I'm not sure what to make of Webb. He's tall, has good vision, has a nice touch, and is willing to work hard, but he strikes me as somewhat frail and he's not very mobile.
just remember how Dallas looked WITH zeke vs WITHOUT him
RE: RE: So, again, we're just going to buy Jerry Reese just smacked a home run
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesnt buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
Is that this is a precursor to the Jets moving into the number one spot in a trade with Cleveland. The Jets still have next year's first round pick to exchange in trade and I could see them using it to move in front of the Giants in order to select Rosen.
We could have a situation like in 2004, where the Chargers had Rivers as the QB that they wanted, but they knew Eli as the #1 QB on most people's draft boards. I remember San Diego Head Coach Marty Schottenheimer being asked who was going to be the first pick in the draft and his answer was, "Eli Manning. I can't tell you for sure who will be making the pick, but the first pick will be Eli" (or words to that effect). If the Browns see Rosen as the clear cut #1 overall, but they prefer a different QB (for whatever reason, same as the Chargers preferring Rivers despite Eli being the clear cut #1 overall), they could feel safe trading down to the #3 spot with confidence they will still get their man (especially if it's Mayfield).
To avoid this, it is extremely important for the Giants to show interest in all the QBs and in Barkley as well (just to show they aren't committed to a QB). The Browns need to be in the dark about who the Giants may select in order to keep them from trading out of the #1 spot (with either the Jets, Broncos, or Bills). They have to fear that the Giants will take the QB which they covet the most.
This trade telegraphs Giants enormous interest in QBs and/or Barkley
that deal was rich enough that had the Giants been interested in trading back and grabbing a bunch of picks they could have done it. Had they just asked for a little bit more the Jets probably would have done it.
I think it's safe to deduce that short of an overwhelming trade offer the Giants aren't looking to move backwards. I'd expect the NFL strongly got that message as well.
Is that this is a precursor to the Jets moving into the number one spot in a trade with Cleveland. The Jets still have next year's first round pick to exchange in trade and I could see them using it to move in front of the Giants in order to select Rosen.
We could have a situation like in 2004, where the Chargers had Rivers as the QB that they wanted, but they knew Eli as the #1 QB on most people's draft boards. I remember San Diego Head Coach Marty Schottenheimer being asked who was going to be the first pick in the draft and his answer was, "Eli Manning. I can't tell you for sure who will be making the pick, but the first pick will be Eli" (or words to that effect). If the Browns see Rosen as the clear cut #1 overall, but they prefer a different QB (for whatever reason, same as the Chargers preferring Rivers despite Eli being the clear cut #1 overall), they could feel safe trading down to the #3 spot with confidence they will still get their man (especially if it's Mayfield).
To avoid this, it is extremely important for the Giants to show interest in all the QBs and in Barkley as well (just to show they aren't committed to a QB). The Browns need to be in the dark about who the Giants may select in order to keep them from trading out of the #1 spot (with either the Jets, Broncos, or Bills). They have to fear that the Giants will take the QB which they covet the most.
We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
RE: RE: I think the Jets are looking at Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen
They will draft one of these three. If I'm the Giants, I take either Darnold or Allen. I'm not interested in Mayfield, and the more film I see of Barkley, the more convinced I am that he is not Emmitt Smith, and to be taken 2nd overall, he better be that good. Should the Giants' consider trading their 2nd overall for a basket of ones and twos? Possibly. My problem is that I'm not sure what to make of Webb. He's tall, has good vision, has a nice touch, and is willing to work hard, but he strikes me as somewhat frail and he's not very mobile.
just remember how Dallas looked WITH zeke vs WITHOUT him
exactly, what the heck do you see that leads you to believe he ISNT smith. im not sayng he is a HoF before he plays a down, but as a prospect he is as good as peterson. the guy doesnt have a visible flaw and off the field he is well spoken with no issues. he is clean prospect with a tremendous skillset. the kid is zeke but faster, i mean....
RE: RE: RE: So, again, we're just going to buy Jerry Reese just smacked a home run
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesnt buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
If we're going by history, then the historical evidence is firmly against Davis Webb even playing in a regular season game much less being any good.
Ryan Nassib was a steal who could start in the NFL. Three years and two teams later he's still nothing.
Rhett Bomar, I'll just leave that there.
Andre Woodson didn't even make it out of training camp.
All of them were scouted and drafted by the same people.
RE: RE: The fear right now in Giants headquarters....
We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
But they could trade the pick to a team that does covet Rosen if they are confident the could get their QB with the #3 overall (if they were to trade down with the Jets) or the #4 overall. They only need to have two QBs other than Rosen on their wish list for them to feel confident in trading down. Unless they believe there is a chance that neither the Jets or Giants would select Rosen. Like I said, in 2004 the Chargers were able to demand the #4 overall pick, a third round pick, and future 1st and 5th round picks of the Giants and still come away with the QB of their choice. Gettleman needs to avoid a repeat of that, but he also needs to avoid missing out on the QB of his choice, if he prefers one clearly above the rest.
Was Dallas really that much better with Elliot than without?
They went 6-4 with him and 3-3 without. Not exactly a huge difference. And one of the wins with him was over Philly in last game of year with Philly clinching. If the SB champs had won Dallas would have been .500 with him and .500 without him. And they played both Washington once with and once without, and same with the Giants. In both cases the results were not very different with or without him. AND In both cases Dallas scored more points in the games without Elliott.
Contrast this to the difference a few years back with and without Romo. The difference there was much more pronounced.
RE: RE: RE: RE: So, again, we're just going to buy Jerry Reese just smacked a home run
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesnt buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
If we're going by history, then the historical evidence is firmly against Davis Webb even playing in a regular season game much less being any good.
Ryan Nassib was a steal who could start in the NFL. Three years and two teams later he's still nothing.
Rhett Bomar, I'll just leave that there.
Andre Woodson didn't even make it out of training camp.
All of them were scouted and drafted by the same people.
well, if thats your criteria, then realize it to the same scouts that you want to give the okay on these qbs
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes theyre different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So, again, we're just going to buy Jerry Reese just smacked a home run
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesnt buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
If we're going by history, then the historical evidence is firmly against Davis Webb even playing in a regular season game much less being any good.
Ryan Nassib was a steal who could start in the NFL. Three years and two teams later he's still nothing.
Rhett Bomar, I'll just leave that there.
Andre Woodson didn't even make it out of training camp.
All of them were scouted and drafted by the same people.
well, if thats your criteria, then realize it to the same scouts that you want to give the okay on these qbs
If it were just the Giants scouts having good things to say about the QBs at the top of this draft, that would be relevant. It's not.
RE: Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10
Excluding last year because its too soon to tell with those guys:
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? Id say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Lets not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Elis replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
Mike it might be a 50% chance of success if we go QB
But if we don't there will be a 100% certainty we will be unsuccessful.
There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
That's not true, Stan in LA has doubts abou...
...oh. Right.
The Giants need a QB and this is a very good QB class.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes theyre different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
You are flat out wrong. The worry about Barkley according to scouts is that he is not the interior runner you expect for his size and that he bounces too many runs to the outside. Sound familiar? That is the problem with a lot of failed backs in the NFL. I'm not saying Barkley will fail, but he surely isn't a no doubt generational talent. Believe me, if the Giants get him and he leaves a string of negative plays on the field and you see him unable to beat teams on the outside he is going to look very average. I think he will be good but in this situation you draft a QB. If we get Rosen and both he and Barkley become stars, around the time Barkley starts to flame out Rosen will be hitting the middle of his prime. So it goes with RBs vs QBs.
RE: Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10
Excluding last year because its too soon to tell with those guys:
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? Id say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Lets not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Elis replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
But they could trade the pick to a team that does covet Rosen if they are confident the could get their QB with the #3 overall (if they were to trade down with the Jets) or the #4 overall. They only need to have two QBs other than Rosen on their wish list for them to feel confident in trading down. Unless they believe there is a chance that neither the Jets or Giants would select Rosen. Like I said, in 2004 the Chargers were able to demand the #4 overall pick, a third round pick, and future 1st and 5th round picks of the Giants and still come away with the QB of their choice. Gettleman needs to avoid a repeat of that, but he also needs to avoid missing out on the QB of his choice, if he prefers one clearly above the rest.
This logic would be applicable if we were dealing with the old Browns management who ran the team like they were playing Madden. Dorsey is an old school football guy who understands the importance of having your franchise QB in place.I don't see the Browns trading away their #1 for anything less than all of a teams' draft picks & even then, it wouldn't be a slam dunk. They have their #4 & 2 early #2's,why would they move? It's the same reason another old school football guy,weened under Ernie Acorsi,Dave Gettleman, takes a QB w/#2 Al McGuire once said "Paralysis by over analysis" is a dangerous thing.The NFL draft allows pundits & draftniks to do this for 4 long months when sometimes the most logical answer is also the easiest one!
In comment 13871827 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
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In comment 13871688 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 13871364 ryanmkeane said:
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was that Webb was a 3rd round pick and some had him rated even higher than that. Big difference between Webb and a guy like Keenum.
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
"Davis Webb's got a live arm. He drops it in the bucket. Moves well enough, quick release, big arm. He's one of the five quarterbacks where you can make a case in this draft that they can start a game in the NFL and be a quarterback." -- Mike Mayock
During the fall, some team sources told WalterFootball.com that there were some area scouts for the west coast who had a higher grade on Davis Webb than they had given to Jared Goff a year earlier. While Goff was the No. 1-overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, there were teams that had him graded much later and didn't like him as a prospect. Still, it was nice acclaim for Webb to be graded higher than Goff and validated Webb status as am NFL prospect.
Davis Webb: Another QB Enters the Round 1 Conversation "Six weeks before the draft, Webb is a legitimate second-round candidate, and its feasible that, come the last weekend in April, he will be billed as someones quarterback of the future." SportsIllustrated
Senior Bowl executive director Phil Savage reports that "[t]he [Cal QB] Davis Webb talk is legit as far as [the] first round."
Savage relays that he has "had several NFL people tell [him] that [Webb] is the guy they would want to coach." We have heard a consistent bubbling of rumor around the possibility of Webb landing in the first round as the pre-draft process hits its stretch run. At the end of March, Pete Prisco of CBS Sports likewise heard that steam was picking up toward a Day 1 selection. Webb, himself, has said that teams in the double-digits have told him he is a first-round talent. If he isn't swept off the board by the end of Round 1, he will almost certainly find an NFL home early in Round 2.
An NFL scout says Cal QB Davis Webb "has Dak-like intangibles."
Webb's stock is surging at the right time. NFL Network's Ian Rapoport "wouldn't be surprised to see a team trade back into round 1" for Webb, a sentiment we've read on multiple occasions over the past 10 days. Draft Analyst's Tony Pauline reported Tuesday that if the Browns don't take UNC's Mitchell Trubisky in Round 1, Webb is "likely to be the target" with the No. 33 selection.
One NFL personnel executive believes that Clemson QB Deshaun Watson and Cal QB Davis Webb will be the only quarterbacks selected on Day 1 of the draft.
Well that would be a weird combo. Color us surprised if UNC QB Mitchell Trubisky is still available at the end of the first round. "I am sticking to my Webb guns," the executive insisted. "He's the second-best QB in this class. I have read the Trubisky and Mahomes buzz. Not sure if I believe it." This came about from an informal poll of five insiders by NFL Media's Daniel Jeremiah to gauge just how many quarterbacks might be taken in Round 1. The most optimistic executive forwarded the possibility of four gunslingers going off the board by the end of April 27. Three is probably the safest bet.
The MMQB's Albert Breer mentioned Cal's Davis Webb as one of five QBs who has a chance of being selected in the first round.
We would be more than stunned if this happens. Webb is not close to being ready for the NFL. He was arguably the best quarterback at the Senior Bowl... but the competition was less than ideal. Webb has a big arm, but has only played out of the Air Raid system, a system with a playbook of five to seven concepts that passers master (see Jared Goff). Even if it is not a first round selection, Webb seems destined for a second day pick.
Great job. You posted journalists repeating stuff they were told weeks before the draft about a guy "in the conversation" for being in the first round. However, every scout and GM they talked to worked for a team that passed on him in the first round. Then every one of them passed in him again in the second round. Then many of the passed on him again in the 3rd round...
So again, which non-journalist (Mayock didn't put a round on him in what you posted) had Webb evaluated as a first round pick at the time of the draft?
If Giants and Jets both want Rosen and Cleveland knows it, the Giants have to worry about jets jumping in Front. The Giants can't leak any info before the draft. They have to send out miss information.
Hopefully Cleveland wants Darnold or Allen and would be worried that either the Giants or another team the Giants trade with after jets take Rosen, would grab the QB they want.
I'm also hoping that Cleveland decides not to get cute since they fucked things up so badly the last few years.
Not trying to call you out, but what you posted is the usual anonymous misdirection that teams feed to journalists before the draft. Mayock's quote does not say to me that he evaluated Webb as a first or second round pick, only that you could make a case he is one of five guys who could start a game in the NFL. The other name you used was Savage. I'll give you that. One guy who put his name to it thought he could be a first round pick. One guy, who had been out of the league 5 years.
The only view any of us have about what real NFL scouts and GMS believe a guy's potential is is when they are drafted. Webb is a 3rd round pick and the fifth QB selected in that draft. It's silly to keep pretending that we probably got a first round talent in the third round without actual evidence of what he can do at the NFL level. All of us would love for the guy to be a stud player and become our QB of the future. You just can't make personnel decisions based on hope.
Any chance the top of the draft can go like this...
2 days after Mayfields pro day and 1 day after Rosens. The drool is still hanging from their mouth.
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know its going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets dont leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think theres a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as hes having trouble containing his excitement.
It could easily go that way. - getting Barkley at #5
If the Giants do trade down, I hope it is with Denver and not Buffalo. In my opinion 12 is too far to drop back.
At #5 you still get one of Rosen, Darnold, Barkley, Nelson, Fitzpatrick or Chubb. If they like Mayfield or Allen as a franchise QB, it is even better. At #12 they stockpile more picks, but the premiere talent in the draft is off the board.
Now if they have a conviction on someone like Jackson, Laulette or Rudolph, then trading with Buffalo is an option as it allows them to still get their QB and more picks. Need to trust Shula and Shurmur to know not only who is better, but how significant the delta is between all of these guys.
RE: RE: Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place youre going to find a replacement for Eli, if we dont take one of these guys were doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
Rosen may like the Giants much more than Cleveland
but it doesn't mean it is based on anything the Giants said to him. Even if he is their guy there is no way they are telling him that...unless they are also saying that to Darnold and Mayfield.
2 days after Mayfields pro day and 1 day after Rosens. The drool is still hanging from their mouth.
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know its going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets dont leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think theres a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as hes having trouble containing his excitement.
I see any possibility of the Browns trading their 1st pick as slim to none. But I agree I think the Jets are hot after Rosen or Mayfield or Allen. Darnold seems like a Browns pick at 1.
Why do you think the giants have a fear of the jets going to 1 for Rosen? I don't think the giants are taking a qb but if they do ill be shocked if its Rosen. Imo giants take Barkley or trade back. I do think if they went qb it would be Darnold or Allen. I'd be shocked if its Rosen. To me Rosen will fall in this draft
1. Browns take a QB
2. Denver takes a QB
3. Jets take a QB
4. Browns take Chubb
5. Giants take Barkley
Well I don't know about the Giants/Denver thing at 2 but according to some Browns forums/fan sites there seems to be interest from both the team and fans in Chubb at 4, and going RB at the top of the 2nd Rd.
RE: RE: RE: Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place youre going to find a replacement for Eli, if we dont take one of these guys were doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
This site is so confusing. I keep reading that you dont have to take a QB in the first round because they can be found later on. But then at the same time I keep reading that Webb must suck because he was drafted in the 3rd round and if he was any good, hed have been a 1st round pick.
that deal was rich enough that had the Giants been interested in trading back and grabbing a bunch of picks they could have done it. Had they just asked for a little bit more the Jets probably would have done it.
I think it's safe to deduce that short of an overwhelming trade offer the Giants aren't looking to move backwards. I'd expect the NFL strongly got that message as well.
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
RE: RE: This trade telegraphs Giants enormous interest in QBs and/or Barkley
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
RE: RE: RE: This trade telegraphs Giants enormous interest in QBs and/or Barkley
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
It sure seems that way but it's possible they talked with the Giants and DG wasn't interested in dropping out of the top 5. Maybe they've used the move up as a stepping stone to 2 if they feel they'll get jumped by Denver for the guy they really like.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This trade telegraphs Giants enormous interest in QBs and/or Barkley
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
It sure seems that way but it's possible they talked with the Giants and DG wasn't interested in dropping out of the top 5. Maybe they've used the move up as a stepping stone to 2 if they feel they'll get jumped by Denver for the guy they really like.
I agree, I think that DG wants to come out of the first round with one out of Darnold, Rosen, Barkley, Chubb, Allen.
Not trying to call you out, but what you posted is the usual anonymous misdirection that teams feed to journalists before the draft. Mayock's quote does not say to me that he evaluated Webb as a first or second round pick, only that you could make a case he is one of five guys who could start a game in the NFL. The other name you used was Savage. I'll give you that. One guy who put his name to it thought he could be a first round pick. One guy, who had been out of the league 5 years.
The only view any of us have about what real NFL scouts and GMS believe a guy's potential is is when they are drafted. Webb is a 3rd round pick and the fifth QB selected in that draft. It's silly to keep pretending that we probably got a first round talent in the third round without actual evidence of what he can do at the NFL level. All of us would love for the guy to be a stud player and become our QB of the future. You just can't make personnel decisions based on hope.
Not feeling called out.
But to clarify....I never (nor do I have the qualifications to say something like that) said he was a first-round talent. Some people thought he could be taken there. At least part of the reason he was not was because he was a developmental guy. First rounders are supposed to play their first year or second year max. They were afraid because he (1) hadn't played a lot under center and (2) Goff had a really rough first year coming out of the Cal offense and that hurt Webb. I have no idea if he is a "first round" talent, whatever that means. There are a lot of successful QBs in the NFL who were not first rounders. The fact that he wasn't really has no bearing on anything at this point.
The question is what is he now and what do the Giants think of him. Obviously that will be answered in part by what they do in the draft. I have no idea, but here are the thoughts from some guys that play against him on a daily basis, when asked about taking a QB at #2>>
Dont draft him. Dont do it. Davis is gonna be really good in the league when its his time, I promise you. Landon Collins
Asked if he thinks the Giants need to draft a quarterback with the second pick, Rodgers-Cromartie told The Post: Nah, nah. I think hes the guy that has the arm, and hes studied under Eli, so I think he still has an opportunity to be that guy. And forget about Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen. Yes, sir. Ive seen him drop it in the bucket, Rodgers-Cromartie said, Ive seen the things that hes done.
Of course, they are teammates and have their biases and could all be BS.
Where we might differ, is I don't believe that the Giants are necessarily going to take a QB at #2 simply because Webb was a third-round draft choice. The team has had him there for a year now. They know (even though the GM and coach weren't there last year) more about him than they do about anyone in the draft. They may view one of these QBs as a generational talent - though I doubt they see 2 or 3 of these guys that way. Personally, I am OK with the Giants (1) taking a QB at #2, (2) taking Barkley at #2 or (3) trading down. Post article - ( New Window )
I can definitely see him dropping to 3rd with the Jets if he's leaning away from a QB. Then possibly even back to 5 with Denver if they want one with DG getting one of Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or Nelson.
Either way he wants one of the top tier talent guys and I don't see him dropping out of the top 5.
If he wants a QB though, I see him staying at 2 unless he really only likes one and the Browns take that guy. Then I can definitely see a trade back, but again not past 5.
I can definitely see him dropping to 3rd with the Jets if he's leaning away from a QB. Then possibly even back to 5 with Denver if they want one with DG getting one of Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or Nelson.
Either way he wants one of the top tier talent guys and I don't see him dropping out of the top 5.
If he wants a QB though, I see him staying at 2 unless he really only likes one and the Browns take that guy. Then I can definitely see a trade back, but again not past 5.
If he is decided on a QB then he won't move. If you have a conviction on a QB then you don't risk losing him by being too cute and moving down. I personally hope that they stand pat and draft either Rosen or Darnold whichever Cleveland doesn't take. The farthest I would move down is with Denver that way I would still have a shot at either Allen, Mayfield, or Nelson.
Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
What would you take from them to drop to 5? You'd probably need something from next year as well.
Any trade down for the Giants must include a 2019 1st. To go from 2 to 5 it would require Denver's 5th overall pick, 2nd round pick, 3rd, plus a 2019 1st and 2nd. I would throw in Flowers or Apple too if they wanted.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Barkley won't bust but -- YES HE MIGHT
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes theyre different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
You are flat out wrong. The worry about Barkley according to scouts is that he is not the interior runner you expect for his size and that he bounces too many runs to the outside. Sound familiar? That is the problem with a lot of failed backs in the NFL. I'm not saying Barkley will fail, but he surely isn't a no doubt generational talent. Believe me, if the Giants get him and he leaves a string of negative plays on the field and you see him unable to beat teams on the outside he is going to look very average. I think he will be good but in this situation you draft a QB. If we get Rosen and both he and Barkley become stars, around the time Barkley starts to flame out Rosen will be hitting the middle of his prime. So it goes with RBs vs QBs.
That is the opinion of a couple of posters here and maybe some not so very highly thought of internet draftniks. It is not the opinion of respected people in the industry. You are incredibly misinformed. The tape does not support your assertion. Barkley absolutely has the power to run between the tackles and it's on tape.
Anonymous scout on Saquon Barkley: Saquon Barkley is better than Zeke, hes faster than Zeke and has more twitch, the scout said, via Yahoo! Sports. Saquon Barkley is a different guy with an extra gear. Hell never get caught from behind. Zeke doesnt get caught often, but he can.
Penn State is flying a bit under the radar in the early portion of the college football season. That should change this week as the Nittany Lions travel to take on Iowa in their first real test of the 2017 season. The scouting community will be focused on several highly rated prospects in this game, but there is one player that clearly stands above everyone else -- PSU RB Saquon Barkley.
He's widely regarded as the top runner in the country and has a unique combination of size, speed and versatility. I reached out to five NFL executives and asked them for a player comparison for Barkley. Here are their answers:
Executive 1: David Johnson
"My first thought -- Superman. Since I can't use him, I'll say David Johnson. Both of these guys are such complete, 3-down backs. Barkley's lower-body strength and explosiveness are pretty tough to match, though."
Executive 2: Kareem Hunt
"He's a better version of Kareem Hunt. Better body frame, better feet and hips, quicker, more explosive, more elusive, better hands and he's faster."
Executive 3: Corey Dillon
"I haven't fully studied him but I see some similarities to Corey Dillon. Big, fast and physical."
Executive 4: Joe Mixon
"He's a more explosive Joe Mixon. When he gets the ball in his hand, he can accelerate and separate quickly. Mixon would build speed and stall out. They both are dangerous as runners and receivers, both 3-down backs."
Executive 5: Ezekiel Elliott
"I was at the game a few years ago when Elliott and Barkley shared the same field. As impressive as Elliott was, Barkley was the better player. They have similar skill sets but Barkley is better in every area."
Summary: That's one vote apiece for Dillon, Elliott, Hunt, Johnson and Mixon.
Conclusion: This is an impressive list of names. I compared Barkley to Elliott when I studied the PSU RB this summer for my First Look series. I think he's a more talented prospect than any of the running backs in the 2017 draft class. He has the talent and upside to quickly develop into the best running back at the next level. That's not hyperbole.
Notice the comps...Zeke Elliott runs between the tackles. Corey Dillon was excellent between the tackles. Joe Mixon is a good runner between the tackles. I bolded some statements for emphasis.
Barkley is rare. As Moorhead told me, "He's a five-tool guy. He can do it all. He has speed, power, can run through you or hurdle over you. You can put him in the slot. He can return kicks. And he's worked hard to become a great pass protector."
If that all sounds too good to be true, you might think it's just an old coach wanting to help out his former player. But when talking to an NFL general manager for this story, he asked me for the highest grade on my scouting grading scale. "A 9.0," I replied. "Put that by his name."
An assistant NFL coach said at the combine about Saquon I would punch myself in the nuts many, many, many times to be able to draft him.
More: You dont screw up the special ones when you are a talent evaluator. This guy is special. Any concerns you file on him just feels like nitpicking to fill out the report. NFL general manager
Every-down running back with the ability to alter the course of an offense and become a face of the franchise-type player. Barkley has the rare ability to create additional yardage through elusiveness, speed, vision and feel for space in the open field. While he has been tasked with carrying a heavy load at Penn State, their decision to limit his carries somewhat this season could help Barkley headed into his rookie season. Barkley is a buffet runner who thrives with the more plates you give him and he has a chance to become an early All-Pro no matter which team takes him.
Daniel Jeremiah (who has him as the #1 overall prospect, like many others): "The whole 'the running back position is dead,' that's old news. When you look at the last couple years of guys that the college game has produced you're talking about some big time backs, and I think Saquon Barkley is better than all of them. And I'm talking about Todd Gurley, Ezekiel Elliott. This kid is special, he's 230 lbs, and he's got big time top speed, he can make you miss, he can help you in the passing game, you can split him out, the options are really endless with him. And then on top of that, you talk to the folks at Penn State, they tell you he's a wonderful kid with extremely high character, so, I hate the can't miss label, I hate that, but let's go ahead and use it. I don't think you can miss with this kid."
You are entirely wrong on him. The question is not should the Giants take him. It's how much in return is it going to take in a trade down for the Giants to not take him.
I await your quotes from scouts and NFL people that question his ability to run between the tackles. You'd be better off not wasting your time, because it's a silly argument. Even with defenses dedicating their entire defensive game plans to swarm Barkley last year, he still ran for nearly 1300 yards at 5.9 ypc. He is just unconscious. And the only way he busts is if he gets seriously hurt. Which could happen to any prospect. Otherwise, he'll be a top RB in the NFL right away.
2 days after Mayfields pro day and 1 day after Rosens. The drool is still hanging from their mouth.
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know its going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets dont leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think theres a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as hes having trouble containing his excitement.
They might like him but what matters is if they like him the best. They certainly aren't going to tell any of these prospects who they like the best before they are on the clock on draft night.
Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place youre going to find a replacement for Eli, if we dont take one of these guys were doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
This site is so confusing. I keep reading that you dont have to take a QB in the first round because they can be found later on. But then at the same time I keep reading that Webb must suck because he was drafted in the 3rd round and if he was any good, hed have been a 1st round pick.
I think a lot of us fall into the trap of equating different opinions posted here to 'BBI' as a singular entity. Remember, what you read is one poster's opinion, then another. Pick any issue, you'd find different opinions all over the map if you polled the posters here. And also, the logic might be sound on both sides of the issue, even though the opinions stated might be opposing views.
are the Jets top 3, according to both the ESPN beat (Cimini) and the NYDN beat (Popper)
Cimini:
'I believe the Jets' top three are Sam Darnold, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen, in no particular order. That's based on conversations with personnel people around the league. The early sense is that the Jets don't rate Baker Mayfield in that upper-echelon category."
I think this is right. You don't give up three picks to move up for the short guy. You do it for the prototype. Link - ( New Window )
are the Jets top 3, according to both the ESPN beat (Cimini) and the NYDN beat (Popper)
Cimini:
'I believe the Jets' top three are Sam Darnold, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen, in no particular order. That's based on conversations with personnel people around the league. The early sense is that the Jets don't rate Baker Mayfield in that upper-echelon category."
I think this is right. You don't give up three picks to move up for the short guy. You do it for the prototype. Link - ( New Window )
This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made. If both the Giants and Jets select QB's it will be fun watching them develop. Obviously they will always be compared to each other.
This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made.
Unless moving up to #3 was just a precursor to moving up to #1.
True but I think Cleveland has no intentions of trading down. The Jets just gave up most of their ammunition to trade up to 3. They don't have any seconds this year or next. Unless they are willing to part with Leonard Williams or Jamal Adams as part of a package then it's not going to happen.
This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made.
Unless moving up to #3 was just a precursor to moving up to #1.
Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes theyre different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
Bush was compared to Gayle Sayers by the talking heads. Go check YouTube. You saying Im 100% or 1000% wrong doesnt change history.
Like I said, the hype and ridiculous comparisons are the same.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Rosen, Darnold, Allen, in some order
Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
Even though I don't want to help the Jets get their next potential franchise QB, especially if they are going to pick Rosen, getting their 2019 1st round pick to move down 1 spot is enticing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Rosen, Darnold, Allen, in some order
Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
Even though I don't want to help the Jets get their next potential franchise QB, especially if they are going to pick Rosen, getting their 2019 1st round pick to move down 1 spot is enticing.
Well to me they're already going to get their next franchise QB at 3 so I look at it more of us getting help moving forward than helping them get a QB.
I can't help but think the same guy making this pick for them thought drafting Hackenburgh was good and maybe we can fleece him for his #1 next year and he screws this pick up as well.
All that of course going on the assumption DG doesn't love a QB at 2.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Rosen, Darnold, Allen, in some order
Well to me they're already going to get their next franchise QB at 3 so I look at it more of us getting help moving forward than helping them get a QB.
I can't help but think the same guy making this pick for them thought drafting Hackenburgh was good and maybe we can fleece him for his #1 next year and he screws this pick up as well.
All that of course going on the assumption DG doesn't love a QB at 2.
Well I would much rather see the Jets pin their hopes on Allen at 3 rather than Rosen at 2. Now if the Jets said that they will take Allen with the 2nd pick leaving Rosen for the Giants at 3 then I would be thrilled to make that move. Hell I would throw in Flowers.
are many QBs that will be available later on, including Jackson, Rudolph, Falk, etc. But the Jets have tried that solution many time, most recently with Hackenburg. They now want one of the "big three." I can't blame them, but I still doubt whether any are worth the #2 pick.
My guess is the Giants take a QB or Barkley unless they receive an incredible offer to trade down, which is certainly possible.
Bush was compared to Gayle Sayers by the talking heads. Go check YouTube. You saying Im 100% or 1000% wrong doesnt change history.
Like I said, the hype and ridiculous comparisons are the same.
I've checked Youtube. You know what they also said about Bush? They actually DID question his ability to run between the tackles, something that actual draft experts in media and NFL scouts and execs DON'T do with Barkley. They questioned his ability to be a bellcow. The thinking was get him the ball 10-15 times a game and he can change the game. Get him out in space, use him as a receiver and a returner, wherever you can get him in space. They didn't say he could run it 20-25 times a game because he was a smaller back that didn't even have that role on USC. LenDale White was the hammer in that backfield. Just because Bush was overhyped doesn't mean Barkley is. Was LaDainian Tomlinson hyped a lot? You bet your ass he was. Was Marshall Faulk? Absolutely. And those guys were Hall of Famers. And there were probably those espousing dumb opinions about why they wouldn't be good just because the Jets drafted Blair Thomas #2 overall and he ended up not being any good.
Barkley and Bush are as far apart as Calvin Johnson and Ike Hilliard.
Saquon Barkley played in 38 college football games.
He failed to get to 100 yards rushing in 23 of them.
(61%)
That is not even close to a good measure of the kind of impact he had on games.
100 yards is a nice round number, also, but it is overblown as to analyzing a successful game. And there is also some nonsense reasoning in here. I for one love how they included the very first game he played in at PSU and got 1 carry. A few games later got 9 touches against San Diego State as a freshman, which he turned into 84 yards and a TD.
And I'm sure they dismiss the 99 yards rushing (on 12 carries) against Ohio State as a sophomore...but that sucks because he didn't get to 100, right?
He also has 17 multi-touchdown games, not including a game in which he returned a kick for a TD and threw a TD pass in the same game.
He has 23 games in which he went over 100 yards from scrimmage. Not counting a 99 yard game, 96 yard game, and a 92 yard game. Pretty good when some of these games he only played about 1 half of football. He has 10 games where he went for 190 yards or more from scrimmage (ok, I included a 189-yard game in there). He has a 300+ yard scrimmage game against Iowa.
What he has accomplished is extraordinary given average QB play, mediocre line play, and being the focal point of the defense for much of his career. In those 37 games he scored 53 TDs and threw for another.
You can go through all kinds of statistical gymnastics to try and paint a dishonest picture about what kind of talent he is, but in the end, like he will NFL defenders, he's going to embarrass you.
Mike Garafolo
Verified account @MikeGarafolo
29s29 seconds ago
Mike Garafolo Retweeted New York Jets
There you go, Jets twitter. That was a possible entry point for the Bills. How high does Buffalo try to go now.
You know the Jets are taking a QB there. That cost to move up to 2 is going to be much higher then this!
As in, it's a done deal contingent upon the Browns drafting a specific player?
The browns have to take a quarterback 1st overall and we will have team's bidding hard for our pick to get ahead of the jets
Going to be real interesting
Also makes Buffalo have to give up more in a possible trade up with us to get their QB. Today is a good day.
Jordan Raanan
Verified account @JordanRaanan
56s56 seconds ago
Picks 2 and 3 in play for QBs with Jets moving up. Hard to imagine the Browns waiting to take their QB at 4. No. 1 will be a QB. #nfldraft
Take a sure thing gold jacket guy in Barkley. He also brings great character to the table.
In comment 13870695 Eric from BBI said:
Release the hounds!!!
B.I.N.G.O.
Damn right!!!
Mike Garafolo
Verified account @MikeGarafolo
29s29 seconds ago
Mike Garafolo Retweeted New York Jets
There you go, Jets twitter. That was a possible entry point for the Bills. How high does Buffalo try to go now.
F-ing exactly. They need to speak with us if they want their QB!!!
Yes, yes and yes!!!
They get to take their QB at #1 and Barkley at #4.
They get to take their QB at #1 and Barkley at #4.
Browns are getting to get healthy real fast with this draft.
They get to take their QB at #1 and Barkley at #4.
Who would the Giants be taking in your scenario?
Well I feel we have a lot of leverage right now. What would you want
Colts will still get Nelson or Chubb at 6. Also, says that Luck is good to go.
Buffalo only has one trading partner if they want one of the top QBs.....oh boy.
Things just got real interesting
I want a cost controlled player as well. Starter
How does this change anything for the Giants other than a) make their pick more valuable for QB needy teams or b) force CLE to more strongly consider a QB leaving Barkley for the Giants.
Jason McIntyre
Verified account @jasonrmcintyre
13m13 minutes ago
The Jets just backed the Giants into a corner. LOVE IT.
Browns want Saquon at 1?
Giants have to take a QB at 2, and deal with all the Eli drama.
HAHAHAHAHA, Jets baby, well done!
Sam Darnold in play for the Jets?
How does this change anything for the Giants other than a) make their pick more valuable for QB needy teams or b) force CLE to more strongly consider a QB leaving Barkley for the Giants.
Quote:
Jason McIntyre
Verified account @jasonrmcintyre
13m13 minutes ago
The Jets just backed the Giants into a corner. LOVE IT.
Browns want Saquon at 1?
Giants have to take a QB at 2, and deal with all the Eli drama.
HAHAHAHAHA, Jets baby, well done!
Sam Darnold in play for the Jets?
He's been a putz for a while. You should hit the unfollow button.
Or that the Giants didnt want to be "that team" that delivered a franchise QB to the Jets lol
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That the Giants did not want to trade out of the second pick. Which could mean they do want to go qb or Barkley.
Or that the Giants didnt want to be "that team" that delivered a franchise QB to the Jets lol
Either way, to me this makes it more likely that the Giants stay put at 2, not less likely.
We can pick up a 2, a 5 and their 2019 1.
I don't think they have nearly enough to trade up again.Just next year's first rounder isn't going to get it done.
That return did not even return a future first round pick? Great trade for the Jets.
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In comment 13870736 madeinstars said:
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That the Giants did not want to trade out of the second pick. Which could mean they do want to go qb or Barkley.
Or that the Giants didnt want to be "that team" that delivered a franchise QB to the Jets lol
Either way, to me this makes it more likely that the Giants stay put at 2, not less likely.
I agree.
Verified account
@RapSheet
5m5 minutes ago
The #Jets explored all options for this trade... including possibly going up to No. 1. In the end, they settled on No. 3. ... Meanwhile, the #Colts fielded calls from other QB-needy teams, but felt good about moving to No. 6 and dealing with the #Jets.
32 replies 146 retweets 297 likes
That could mean the approach DG but the price was too high OR the Giants are staying put regardless.
or we take a QB. Ever think of that?
Because the Jets' 1st (#6) and both 2018 2nds (#37 and #49) are higher picks than the Bills' picks in the 1st (#12 and #22) and 2nd (#53 and #56), respectively. The Colts may well have a top tier of six players on their board so they feel confident that they'll still get one of the premium talents in the draft, and they're still in position to trade down again if one of the QBs is sitting there at #6.
So I don't think the "all it took" with respect to the Jets would necessarily apply to the Bills.
That's as far as I'd want to trade back. If three QBs go 1-2-3, that most likely (unless Cleve trades out of 4 which I doubt since they already have a ton of picks) leaves us at 5 with one of Barkley,Chubb,Nelson or Fitzpatrick. Plus whatever picks they get from Denver.
I can live with that if DG doesn't love a QB at 2.
Verified account
@RapSheet
5m5 minutes ago
The #Jets explored all options for this trade... including possibly going up to No. 1. In the end, they settled on No. 3. ... Meanwhile, the #Colts fielded calls from other QB-needy teams, but felt good about moving to No. 6 and dealing with the #Jets.
32 replies 146 retweets 297 likes
That could mean the approach DG but the price was too high OR the Giants are staying put regardless.
Or Gettleman knows the price will only go up the longer he waits, including on the clock on draft day.
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open avenue for a team targeting one of the top QB's. Giants can get a massive haul. Barkley has to be first ballot hof good for us to use this pick on him.
or we take a QB. Ever think of that?
They are NOT going to take the 2nd best QB on the board...one which most likely either has a ton of concussion issues, can't hit the side of a barn, or is Baker Mayfield.
The only play for the Giants is to draft Barkley or trade down. If they trade down, it had better be a massive deal in order to pass up Barkley. My guess is they don't get that.
Because if you don't have a conviction on a QB or feel multiple premium picks are more valuable than a RB.
Look, the Giants need a ton of help.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
Verified account
@RapSheet
5m5 minutes ago
The #Jets explored all options for this trade... including possibly going up to No. 1. In the end, they settled on No. 3. ... Meanwhile, the #Colts fielded calls from other QB-needy teams, but felt good about moving to No. 6 and dealing with the #Jets.
32 replies 146 retweets 297 likes
That could mean the approach DG but the price was too high OR the Giants are staying put regardless.
Or Gettleman knows the price will only go up the longer he waits, including on the clock on draft day.
That's possibly as well.
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The Jets can easily move up to #1 to jump us. Cleveland with #3 and #4 can still get their guy and deal further.
I don't think they have nearly enough to trade up again.Just next year's first rounder isn't going to get it done.
This is the Jets. The same team that had to ensure that McCown would be starter just for him to sign a below-market deal. If they have 1 player (Rosen), they can sell next year's draft capital to do what it would take. The Jets should be a lesson for all as to how long a franchise can wallow in QB Hell with mediocre talent. This is no time for them to get cute. If they sense that Rosen won't be there for them, they will do whatever it takes. My assumption is that the Giants won't deliver the Jets franchise QB to them by swapping out picks so that leaves the Browns.
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Everyone looking to trade out. Wouldn't you want a blue chip player? Wether it's a qb or Barkley? We trade down to 12 then we have no chance at our own blue chip player.
Because if you don't have a conviction on a QB or feel multiple premium picks are more valuable than a RB.
Look, the Giants need a ton of help.
Eric, the Giants also need a QB just like these teams desperately trying to get in position to draft one.
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Everyone looking to trade out. Wouldn't you want a blue chip player? Wether it's a qb or Barkley? We trade down to 12 then we have no chance at our own blue chip player.
Because if you don't have a conviction on a QB or feel multiple premium picks are more valuable than a RB.
Look, the Giants need a ton of help.
Eric, gun to head, what would you do? Do you roll the dice with Eli and Webb? Or do you take a potential future at 2? I just hate to be stuck in the 90s again if Webb doesn't work out.
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In comment 13870762 yankeeslover said:
Quote:
Everyone looking to trade out. Wouldn't you want a blue chip player? Wether it's a qb or Barkley? We trade down to 12 then we have no chance at our own blue chip player.
Because if you don't have a conviction on a QB or feel multiple premium picks are more valuable than a RB.
Look, the Giants need a ton of help.
Eric, the Giants also need a QB just like these teams desperately trying to get in position to draft one.
Just because you do doesn't mean you take whatever scraps are left to you. Concussion history? No thanks. Accuracy issues? No thanks. Baker? no thanks.
The only play for the Giants is barkley or trade down for a massive haul...and it better be massive.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
Could be. Teams undoubtedly have their preferred order for the QBs, but are willing to settle for just getting any one of the "big three."
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open avenue for a team targeting one of the top QB's. Giants can get a massive haul. Barkley has to be first ballot hof good for us to use this pick on him.
or we take a QB. Ever think of that?
Yes, in fact I hope that's what we do. I was making the comment for the Barkley crowd. IMO it makes little sense to take him now since if he turns out to be anything less than an all-time great RB then he's not worth this #2. We need to take a franchise QB or an all-time great at another position to pass up the trade offers we're going to get for this pick.
But right now, I think you either take the QB or trade back. I love Barkley, but if the Giants can get a massive trade deal out of the pick, I think they have to seriously consider taking it.
My thought process has always been this: the Giants will probably not be in this spot again for decades. I don't see the game-changing defender (a Reggie White or Lawrence Taylor) here. Offensively, when you pick this high, it's got to be a QB...someone who will be THE GUY for 10-15 years. If the Giants don't feel confident about the QB who will be there at #2, then don't force it. Trade back.
The whispers out there are the Giants are not going to draft a QB. I'm not sure I buy that. But if that is true, then I think trading down is seriously in play.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
Maybe DG didn't think that offer was enough for him.
Now, if he waits them out, and isn't high on a QB, maybe he can get their #1 next year, plus ? to go from 2-3. Key is going to be how he feels about a QB, or if the Browns take the one he wants at 1, IMO.
I could also see them trading back with Denver if they aren't high on a QB or he's gone at 1.
Yup. When you have a Barkley in your lap it better be an offer you can't refuse type of deal to pass him up. Hall of Fame players don't fall out of trees like this.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
This! However, there is the thought that even if the Giants might be willing to trade the #2 it wouldn't be to the crosstown rivals. Bad PR move to give the Jests Rosen or Darnold.
I don't understand why the Colts wouldn't sweat the Jets out and drive up the price.
Another interesting development is that the Jets may actually be a potential trade partner for the Giants. If the Giants actually do love Barkley over the QBs and the Jets have a preference for one, the Bills can be used as leverage to entice the Jets to move up on spot. Just one scenario that benefits the Giants after this move.
Greg Gabriel
@greggabe
Buffalo will have to pay a ransom to get to 2 ( If Giants want to trade). Colts didnt want to move further back than 6. Knew where drop off was. Its about the quality of the player
They dont have much to trade now
Yes IF the Giants REALLY like one of the quarterbacks at #2. But that's a big if.
My guess as of right now:
If the Browns take a QB, we stay put at #2, and take Barkley.
If the Browns take Barkley, we trade out for a fortune.
Either one is fine with me.
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To pick a QB here, hopefully Rosen if available. Idk why the jets wouldnt wait to see who the first few picks are before making this move.
Yes IF the Giants REALLY like one of the quarterbacks at #2. But that's a big if.
Its not really. Im sure the have one of them graded high enough
My guess as of right now:
If the Browns take a QB, we stay put at #2, and take Barkley.
If the Browns take Barkley, we trade out for a fortune.
Either one is fine with me.
You dont think QB is a need?
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What a shitty haul for the Colts. If this is the going rate don't trade. Quality is almost always better than quantity. Just stop outsmarting yourself and grab a QB or Barkley. People are obsessed with trades that usually work in the favor of the team trading up. Take the franchise altering player rather than hope to get a bunch of good players. This isn't hard. Take the fucking QB. Don't be the Browns.
I don't understand why the Colts wouldn't sweat the Jets out and drive up the price.
If we believe Dave Te then they really want Nelson or Chubb. And if the Jets wind up trading with us then they lose out on dropping to six where it seems Nelson will still be available.
How does this change anything for the Giants other than a) make their pick more valuable for QB needy teams or b) force CLE to more strongly consider a QB leaving Barkley for the Giants.
Quote:
Jason McIntyre
Verified account @jasonrmcintyre
13m13 minutes ago
The Jets just backed the Giants into a corner. LOVE IT.
Browns want Saquon at 1?
Giants have to take a QB at 2, and deal with all the Eli drama.
HAHAHAHAHA, Jets baby, well done!
Sam Darnold in play for the Jets?
Maybe I'm off because there was certainly Eli drama last year but I sure hope that DG won't be making the decision based on perceived Eli drama. Like this is someone trying to sound smart about a complete non-factor.
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If not the Jets would have just moved to 2 and the Giants get a decent haul while most likely still getting Nelson/Barkley.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
This! However, there is the thought that even if the Giants might be willing to trade the #2 it wouldn't be to the crosstown rivals. Bad PR move to give the Jests Rosen or Darnold.
I don't think this confirms that at all. I think the only thing it confirms is it puts pressure on the Browns to take a QB at 1. They can't risk the guy they like still being there at 4.
As for the Giants, while they might like and be targeting a QB at 2, what if it's the same one the Browns grab at 1? Does anyone think the Giants have two QBs rated the same or would settle on their second choice just because he's a QB? I don't.
They are in a huge position of strength here at 2, even more than before thanks to the Jets trade.
You dont think QB is a need?
Not sloppy seconds. This isn't fantasy football where you have to draft a position this round or else. This high you have to go BPA if there is not a QB you absolutely love. If Darnold isn't there you'd be out of your mind to wage the franchise on a guy who has had 2 concussions in a year, a guy who has accuracy issues or Mayfield. One or all of those guys might be end up being good. Rosen might never have another concussion. But are you willing to bet on those things? Or take the sure bet in Barkley......or a massive trade down?
Doubtful, the Browns want the pick of the QBs.
Id find it odd that all the teams want to trade up desperately for one of these QBs but the Giants think theyre garbage? Doesnt add up
My guess as of right now:
If the Browns take a QB, we stay put at #2, and take Barkley.
If the Browns take Barkley, we trade out for a fortune.
Either one is fine with me.
Our spot has definitely increased in value now. We are in a perfect position to reap a goldmine worth of picks
Yeah. Absolutely. It would be hard to see a situation where I would not be in agreememt. After a few years we will look back and say maybe we should have done something different but I'd love Barkley, Nelson, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, Rosen, possibly Allen after hearing he never had a QB coach at college, or a trade down for a king's ransom.
I think that's a lot less likely after seeing what they did in free agency.
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lot depends on how the Browns value the QBs. If their grades on Darnold, Rosen, and Allen aren't substantially different, then they may just take Barkley, knowing they'll still get one of he QBs at #4. That's probably what I would do. That would also make the Giants' pick more valuable, since anyone trading with us would get whatever QB they wanted. But even if the Browns take a QB, our pick is still valuable since the Jets will obviously take a QB at #3.
My guess as of right now:
If the Browns take a QB, we stay put at #2, and take Barkley.
If the Browns take Barkley, we trade out for a fortune.
Either one is fine with me.
You dont think QB is a need?
I don't think any of the QBs are worth the #2 pick. That has nothing to do with Webb. Webb is irrelevant to that conclusion.
Rosen is the best player in the draft, but he has an injury history that includes two recent concussions. He's also a classic pocket passer in an era where the proliferation of spread offenses in college mean that OL play in the NFL has declined markedly. He has nimble feet and good pocket presence, but is not a threat to run.
Darnold has a loopy throwing motion, and his arm and lower body are often not in sync when he throws. That produces a lot of overthrows. He has s somewhat chunky body style, is prone to fumbling, and stares down receivers.
Allen has the best arm since Elway. He's also incredibly strong, and can consequently shake off tacklers. He can also run. But he has serious accuracy issues.
I trust the Giants' judgment if they draft any of the QBs. None are anywhere near remote throwers. But I'd probably take Barkley or trade down. If forced to pick a QB, I'd take Darnold.
Teams like the Broncos, Cards, Bills have to pay up. Also if the Browns want a QB and Barkley they have to pay up as well.
Do not underestimate Gettlemans rapport with Brandon Beane the GM up in Buffalo from their time in Carolina.
Giants are in a great spot.
Nice to hear as DG has to be licking his chops. We absolutely need to hold out and wait to see how desperate Buffalo becomes for our #2 pick.
I am all-in on picking Rosen #2, but if we can a crapload of picks this year plus Buffalo's #1 pcik next year, we can package up something next year to move up and pick a QB.
Have to consider who at QB becomes available next year to make the best decision...
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How can you be so sure? I'm not.
Id find it odd that all the teams want to trade up desperately for one of these QBs but the Giants think theyre garbage? Doesnt add up
We don't know what the Giants think. Maybe they don't think these guys are garbage and sending out some mis directions? Maybe they really are good with Eli for another couple of years or really high on Webb.
Maybe these other teams are panicking while the Giants are staying cool.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
I think so too. They no doubt called the Giants about a trade for the number 2 pick and settled at 3. They clearly wanted to jump in front of Denver at the very least so they have their choice of the 3rd QB.
-It will take a lot for Browns/Giants to move out of the top 2 picks.
-Browns take QB @1 or they settle with the 4th best QB at 4
-Increases the probability of Barkley getting to 4
-Eliminates the Browns moving from 4 to 2
-Increases the probability of the Browns trading out of 4
-Jets have QBs graded relatively close
The trade isn't a big surprise, many projected it if Jets lost out on Cousins. What's interesting now is how this forces the Bills hand. They are on the move for a QB. Miami and Denver are also on the outside looking in. Very real possibility 4 QBs go in top 5 which I heard months ago. Unreal.
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
This ^^^
How does this change anything for the Giants other than a) make their pick more valuable for QB needy teams or b) force CLE to more strongly consider a QB leaving Barkley for the Giants.
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Jason McIntyre
Verified account @jasonrmcintyre
13m13 minutes ago
The Jets just backed the Giants into a corner. LOVE IT.
Browns want Saquon at 1?
Giants have to take a QB at 2, and deal with all the Eli drama.
HAHAHAHAHA, Jets baby, well done!
Sam Darnold in play for the Jets?
Whoever this guy is... he missed the memo months ago.
Obviously we dont know what theyre thinking but I find it hard to believe they dont like one of these guys enough. The only team with trading with is Denver anything else would be to far imo. If they dont draft a QB Davis Webb better be really good
Problem is trading to 12. Nelson won't be there. I have no issue trading back if you stay in top 10.. but to move to 12, you lose all shot at Nelson or any blue chip player. Maybe Denver at 5? That might be perfect.
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
I'm fine with that, or staying put and taking Barkley. As I've said, I'm not a fan of any of the QBs at #2, but certainly won't hate it if they take one.
You'd have to think the possibility to add the 12, 22, next years first, a 2nd, a 3rd
and a POSSIBLE STARTER
is a haul
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
This puts the Bills out of play. Theoretically we could trade back with Denver. Thats it.
CLE- Darnold
DEN- Rosen
NYJ- Mayfield
CLE- Barkley/Chubb
NYG- Nelson?
Id prefer Barkley in that scenario, but hed likely be gone. Just know we could be in the same spot as Buffalo next year, trying to trade up after trading down the previous year.
Same here. The farthest I'd want them to drop back is 5 with Fenver.
After such a painful to watch, shitty year last year, they have to come away with one of the top, blue chip players from this draft. He won't be there at 12,IMO.
Give me one of Barkley,Chubb, Fitzpatrick or Nelson plus some picks and I'd be ok with a trade back to 5, as long as they're not in love with a QB who is still there at 2.
#s
4,33,(34),35,64 and two picks next year for #2?
Or something to that effect?
are they as desperate as the bills?
#s
4,33,(34),35,64 and two picks next year for #2?
Or something to that effect?
I'd say 1, 33, 64, 1 next year.
Schefter also just said it's likely the first 3 picks are going to be QBs.
They are in a can't miss spot.
One is a generational QB talent who for years has been touted as the next great thing, and really has never done anything to change that. He will be a future star. Think of a much better Aaron Rodgers coming out of college and that's Darnold.
The other is a generational RB talent who produced running behind a putrid O-Line. Behind this new line he can be amazing.
Both are amazing people most importantly, and the type of foundational player that this team needs.
Take ALL of the analysis out of the picture from every single pundit about arm strength, accuracy, quickness, speed, etc. and filter it through the lens of JOHN MARA. This is the key. Mara just went through a period where he stepped back a little bit and trusted Reese and McAdoo and his father's franchise was quite frankly embarrassed. He knows the franchise is at a crossroads. No shot he lets that happen again. He is signing off on this pick 100%, and the two true character guys happen to be the best 2 guys in the draft, in Darnold and Barkley.
Do you think Mara is going to put the future of his franchise in the hands of Baker Mayfield, whose overblown reputation is still just that...a reputation....or Josh Rosen, the political activist who has his own reputation of being a party guy (among the other concerns with him)?
I could do DG's job in this draft. See which one of the two is picked 1st and then pick the other. Not brain surgery.
The ONLY caveat is if someone absolutely knocks the socks off of the Giants with a deal, which starts at 2 firsts and 2 seconds IMO.
Browns get their choice at 4 of Chubb Nelson Barkley
We pick whichever they don't take and like best at 5 and get extra picks and a 1 next year.
If we don't take QB we HAVE to trade with Denver.
#s
4,33,(34),35,64 and two picks next year for #2?
Or something to that effect?
This is so dumb. Why would the Browns do that?
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
Extra picks to spend on another QB? Think about that one. Unless Webb is the real deal (dubious) then we are going to have to make a similar trade in reverse a couple of years down the road.
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or to trade with us, as there's less chance the qb that they want is available at the 4th pick.
This ^^^
Browns @ 1 get their pick of the QBs then Barkley falls to them a 4. Perfect draft scenario taking shape.
I look for Buffalo to make another trade with a team close to 5. Whether that is the Browns, Denver, the Colts moving back again (which is highly unlikely), or Tampa.
Then Bills make an offer for pick #2. I don't think Gettleman (if he's considering it) will move back much further than 7.
I dont see any scenario in which the Browns dont take a QB at #1.
And I think Barkley is the BPA in this draft, period. I badly want him to be the Giants pick at #2. Reaching for players like Pugh and Flowers is why the team is picking #2. Dont force a pick for a QB.
Anyone else wonder why the Jets didnt make this trade closer to draft day? I guess they thought the price would go up?
I think Allen is the Jets guy.
i know we won't trade with them but is that enough for us to move?
I think we would need next years one not next years 2nd.
btw - the word "generational" is becoming way too overused...
i know we won't trade with them but is that enough for us to move?
I think we would need next years one not next years 2nd.
I was thinking the same thing. Assuming Barkley is there, is there a chance to drop to 6 (still get Nelson) and acquire some 2nd rounders?
This ^^^
I'm sure that the Jets spoke to Gettleman and either did not like the price or were told that the Giants are staying put.
I'll predict that the Giants play it safe, stay where they are and take a quarterback.
Really? That seems like a silly approach.
Giants better do what's best for their own team.
Browns get their choice at 4 of Chubb Nelson Barkley
We pick whichever they don't take and like best at 5 and get extra picks and a 1 next year.
If we don't take QB we HAVE to trade with Denver.
I'd add Fitzpatrick to that mix but totally agree with you and this is the type of deal they'd lay the parameters for before the draft, imo.
If the Giants wanted a QB but the Browns took him at 1, they'd be able to pull the trigger on this with Denver on draft day. Personally, I don't want them trading back any farther than this.
I think even if the Giants aren't high on a QB, they're going to let on they are in order to get a huge deal to think about. I'd be surprised if they made any move before the draft unless of course they get one they can't refuse.
If the Giants go QB outside of round 1, Kyle Lauletta is a guy I'd watch. He feels like a very Pat Shurmur-esque QB.
They are in a can't miss spot.
One is a generational QB talent who for years has been touted as the next great thing, and really has never done anything to change that. He will be a future star. Think of a much better Aaron Rodgers coming out of college and that's Darnold.
The other is a generational RB talent who produced running behind a putrid O-Line. Behind this new line he can be amazing.
Both are amazing people most importantly, and the type of foundational player that this team needs.
Take ALL of the analysis out of the picture from every single pundit about arm strength, accuracy, quickness, speed, etc. and filter it through the lens of JOHN MARA. This is the key. Mara just went through a period where he stepped back a little bit and trusted Reese and McAdoo and his father's franchise was quite frankly embarrassed. He knows the franchise is at a crossroads. No shot he lets that happen again. He is signing off on this pick 100%, and the two true character guys happen to be the best 2 guys in the draft, in Darnold and Barkley.
Do you think Mara is going to put the future of his franchise in the hands of Baker Mayfield, whose overblown reputation is still just that...a reputation....or Josh Rosen, the political activist who has his own reputation of being a party guy (among the other concerns with him)?
I could do DG's job in this draft. See which one of the two is picked 1st and then pick the other. Not brain surgery.
The ONLY caveat is if someone absolutely knocks the socks off of the Giants with a deal, which starts at 2 firsts and 2 seconds IMO.
I'm assuming this is opinion and not your source, correct?
In order to get one of Barkley/Nelson plus a haul, only Cleveland and Denver qualify.
How does this change anything for the Giants other than a) make their pick more valuable for QB needy teams or b) force CLE to more strongly consider a QB leaving Barkley for the Giants.
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Jason McIntyre
Verified account @jasonrmcintyre
13m13 minutes ago
The Jets just backed the Giants into a corner. LOVE IT.
Browns want Saquon at 1?
Giants have to take a QB at 2, and deal with all the Eli drama.
HAHAHAHAHA, Jets baby, well done!
Sam Darnold in play for the Jets?
What an idiot. This means the Giants told the Jets to fuck off so now the Jets get the third pick of the litter. Moron.
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or to trade with us, as there's less chance the qb that they want is available at the 4th pick.
This ^^^
I also agree. This could be better for Giants. They get their pick between Barkley and Rosen if this happens. I doubt Browns go Rosen after he made it clear he doesn't want to go to Cleveland.
The Giants can use help everywhere on this roster. That was just one example. Chubb would be great too. Or a CB. And again, you are receiving multiple #1/#2 picks to address the roster.
We have five picks right now.
No lol. Awful logic.
I agree. Either Cleveland or Denver at 5. Best of both worlds and guarantees a bluechip.
This should be a big takeaway after this trade, yet I'm still seeing comments stating that "there isn't a franchise QB worth taking at 2" in this very thread. The Jets clearly think differently, in fact they see 3.
I'm not saying that's how the Giants feel either, it's just that they would be in the minority if they did.
...the Jets move to #3 means this (IMO):
90% chance the Giants #2 pick just got hugely more valuable;
10% chance the Giants #2 pick has not changed in value;
0% chance the Giants #2 pick lost value.
The Jets move is a really good story for the Giants!
Others have said the following, but it bears repeating:
(1) Cleveland now must go QB at #1;
(2) If the Giants want Barkley he'll now be sitting there at #2;
(3) If the Giants have placed a can't miss franchise-label on one of the QBs available at #2, then he's our pick;
(4) If not... and if not Barkley... then the Giants should wheel and deal until the cows come home;
(5) And if they go the "Let's make a Deal" route, they could end up with Nelson and several extra premium picks between this year and next.
This is a very good day to be a New York Giants fan!
Trading down makes sense to me only if we're rolling with Eli for 2 more years at least or think Webb is the answer. To pass on the top-rated QB's in the class only to take one later strikes me as a Browns like move - Cody Kessler and Deshone Kizer rather than Wentz or Watson.
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The Giants were always going to either grab Darnold or Barkley at #2. The rest of the discussion is all noise.
They are in a can't miss spot.
One is a generational QB talent who for years has been touted as the next great thing, and really has never done anything to change that. He will be a future star. Think of a much better Aaron Rodgers coming out of college and that's Darnold.
The other is a generational RB talent who produced running behind a putrid O-Line. Behind this new line he can be amazing.
Both are amazing people most importantly, and the type of foundational player that this team needs.
Take ALL of the analysis out of the picture from every single pundit about arm strength, accuracy, quickness, speed, etc. and filter it through the lens of JOHN MARA. This is the key. Mara just went through a period where he stepped back a little bit and trusted Reese and McAdoo and his father's franchise was quite frankly embarrassed. He knows the franchise is at a crossroads. No shot he lets that happen again. He is signing off on this pick 100%, and the two true character guys happen to be the best 2 guys in the draft, in Darnold and Barkley.
Do you think Mara is going to put the future of his franchise in the hands of Baker Mayfield, whose overblown reputation is still just that...a reputation....or Josh Rosen, the political activist who has his own reputation of being a party guy (among the other concerns with him)?
I could do DG's job in this draft. See which one of the two is picked 1st and then pick the other. Not brain surgery.
The ONLY caveat is if someone absolutely knocks the socks off of the Giants with a deal, which starts at 2 firsts and 2 seconds IMO.
I'm assuming this is opinion and not your source, correct?
Absolutely- just my 2 cents
No way in hell Barkley slips past 4. Zero chance.
You know the Jets are taking a QB there. That cost to move up to 2 is going to be much higher then this!
--------------
Without reading 168 responses, this was my EXACT thought.
The Bills might have to give up 12,21 and next year's #1.
The Oline can be fixed and a RB (pick 34). Next years 1 can be used for Ammo for a QB.
Plus the rookie contracts at 12 (McGlinchey and one of the centers at 21) can offset the cost of Solder.
I can't see Gettleman turning this down. He'd have to be in love with BOTH Allen and Darnold.
With the added value of 2 (with the Jets trade) no way he drafts Barkley. Means it's either a QB or a trade. Which ALSO means the Browns can get Darnold/Allen at 1 and Barkley at 4.
Browns fans should be MORE elated than us.
McCown - veteran
Bridgewater - a 1 year deal for a guy who hasn't played in 2 years, and now may likely never play for the Jets
Petty - 4th round pick in 2015
Hackenberg - 2nd round in 2016
xxxx - 1st round pick in 2018, where they gave away a slew of other picks.
Seeing as you can only really have 3 QB's at most that means 2 have to go at least. You know McCown is there and the new draft choice is there. That leaves 1 of Bridgewater, Petty, and Hackenberg to make it (if they do keep 1). So that could mean Bridgewater never puts on a Jets jersey, or that they just punt on their 2016 2nd round pick.
What a mess.
I'd be OK with that if they are not thrilled with the QBs. But now, given this turn of events, I wouldn't pass up a huge trade deal if offered.
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or to trade with us, as there's less chance the qb that they want is available at the 4th pick.
This ^^^
my god...dream scenario
Browns want to secure barkley and darnold
they trade #4 and a similar trade with the Jets (get there two two's 33 and 35 and there second rounder next year.
Giants now have #4, #33, #34, and #35
Then bills get desperate to move up after darnold and whoever the jets pick is off the board and want to jump the broncos. They offer the giants
#12, #22, #53, and 56 and there 1st round pikc next year.
So the giants would have
#12, #22, #33, #34, #35, #53, and #56 in the 1st two rounds this year plus the Bills first round pick next year and the browns 2nd round pick next year.
I only do this if the Giants think Webb can be the franchise Qb...but if they do this could rebuild the giants roster in two years.
-Jets didn't trade all those assets for a move to get a RB.
-Giants won't turn down multiple 1 round picks for a RB.
-Makes ZERO sense for the Browns to trade up to pick #2 for Barkley when they'll likely have him at 4.
-NYG not trading back with NYJ is very telling in my opinion. Its a QB unless DG gets that "offer he can't refuse".
I know the Jets are desperate, but they could have stayed at 6 and taken the one that fell into their lap. I wonder who they are targeting.
are they as desperate as the bills?
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In comment 13870754 Ira said:
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or to trade with us, as there's less chance the qb that they want is available at the 4th pick.
This ^^^
Browns @ 1 get their pick of the QBs then Barkley falls to them a 4. Perfect draft scenario taking shape.
unless the giants threaten to take barkley at #2 if the browns don't play ball with us?
OL & LB seem to be biggest needs.
Clearly the Jets offered this pick to the Giants and we turned them down.
Theres no way, that we would have turned down that trade if we were not focused on QB. We would have had a decent chance at any position player we wanted at 6 (guanratee atleast 3 QBs taken in top 5) plus gotten two/three more higher picks. That would have been huge for us.
I love Barkley as a huge PSU fan, but theres no way hed be worth turning that package down and Id be SHOCKED if the Giants disagreed with that.
The only other reason they would have turned this trade down, in a world where they are not sold on a QB, is if they had a better trade down lined up (very doubtful).
-Jets didn't trade all those assets for a move to get a RB.
-Giants won't turn down multiple 1 round picks for a RB.
-Makes ZERO sense for the Browns to trade up to pick #2 for Barkley when they'll likely have him at 4.
-NYG not trading back with NYJ is very telling in my opinion. Its a QB unless DG gets that "offer he can't refuse".
Giants would never trade back with them. I think it will be
Darnold
Rosen
Allen
Barkley
Mayfield
-Jets didn't trade all those assets for a move to get a RB.
-Giants won't turn down multiple 1 round picks for a RB.
-Makes ZERO sense for the Browns to trade up to pick #2 for Barkley when they'll likely have him at 4.
-NYG not trading back with NYJ is very telling in my opinion. Its a QB unless DG gets that "offer he can't refuse".
Agree with all of these points except for the last one. The other possibility is that the Giants believe one of the QB's is a franchise caliber guy. If that's the case then you'd wait to see who Cleveland takes first before pulling the trigger on a deal. That's the only other possibility in my mind.
Those who want Saquon will likely be in denial but this screams of the Giants at least believing that one of the quarterbacks is worth the 2nd pick.
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important takeaway for me is the Jets willing to jump into the 3rd overall pick this early in the game. That means they have a very strong conviction in at least 3 QB's in this draft.
This should be a big takeaway after this trade, yet I'm still seeing comments stating that "there isn't a franchise QB worth taking at 2" in this very thread. The Jets clearly think differently, in fact they see 3.
I'm not saying that's how the Giants feel either, it's just that they would be in the minority if they did.
The NFL market is saying these guys are worth a lot. The Giants can buck that but they will either have to find a bargain later in the draft (maybe they already did with Webb) or pay that steep market price in a future draft. Personally I don't think you go bargain hunting with the future of your franchise but yeah, it does work out sometimes.
agreed this trade just increased the value of the #2 pick. Jets are picking a QB when the colts weren't
so now if you aren't in the top 3 chances are you aren't getting the QB you want. So if a team like the bills needs a QB the only spot they have to move up is the #2 spot.
The reason the Jets do not wait til draft day is they will pay 1/3 to 1/2 more to get same result, the #3 overall pick. This was their cheapest move to make IMO...
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Barkley isn't going in the top 3 picks. Just doesn't fit the narrative.
-Jets didn't trade all those assets for a move to get a RB.
-Giants won't turn down multiple 1 round picks for a RB.
-Makes ZERO sense for the Browns to trade up to pick #2 for Barkley when they'll likely have him at 4.
-NYG not trading back with NYJ is very telling in my opinion. Its a QB unless DG gets that "offer he can't refuse".
Giants would never trade back with them. I think it will be
Darnold
Rosen
Allen
Barkley
Mayfield
Exactly.
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
No, if there is a franchise QB, you take him and DO NOT let the Jets steal the headlines.
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might cost them Nelson - could very well be Colts pick
The Giants can use help everywhere on this roster. That was just one example. Chubb would be great too. Or a CB. And again, you are receiving multiple #1/#2 picks to address the roster.
We have five picks right now.
Yep. The Giants are now in a position to rake Buffalo over the coals if they want their guy. Theres no telling what the cost might be, but it will definitely include both 1s and 2s plus a future first. My guess is more.
Thats a ton of premium picks to add cheap talent to the roster. As far as the gold jacket crap, Ray Lewis and Marvin Harrison were selected in the late 20s. Id rather have several picks to find gold jacket guys than one pick.
I don't think Mara would ever live that down. Not in the NY market.
I know the Jets are desperate, but they could have stayed at 6 and taken the one that fell into their lap. I wonder who they are targeting.
Exactly. Multiple teams offering "kings ransoms". It clearly shows where tbe vslue is in this draft. QB.
McCown - veteran
Bridgewater - a 1 year deal for a guy who hasn't played in 2 years, and now may likely never play for the Jets
Petty - 4th round pick in 2015
Hackenberg - 2nd round in 2016
xxxx - 1st round pick in 2018, where they gave away a slew of other picks.
Seeing as you can only really have 3 QB's at most that means 2 have to go at least. You know McCown is there and the new draft choice is there. That leaves 1 of Bridgewater, Petty, and Hackenberg to make it (if they do keep 1). So that could mean Bridgewater never puts on a Jets jersey, or that they just punt on their 2016 2nd round pick.
What a mess.
For a team in desperate need of a QB I don't think hedging their bets on the position is a bad move. I would want to get out of "QB Hell" as well.
QB is such a crap shoot
I don't think Mara would ever live that down. Not in the NY market.
Exactly. Play this out. A franchise QB could mean 7/8 playoffs in 10 years. A super bowl.
This is major financial money in tbe NY market. Especislky if the Giants are stuck without one .
This stuff matters. Big time
Jets are weird
Colts are weird
Weird trade
QB is such a crap shoot
What position do you think isnt?
I don't think Mara would ever live that down. Not in the NY market.
Which is why I cant see them taking Barkley and letting the Jets have Darnold or Rosen
Plus they just picked up a starting RB in Hyde. I see no way Cleve does anything but pick a QB now.
You take a bad guard or a bad QB, seems like QB hurts you more.
Could be Webb. Depends on what the Giants think of him
We'll see.
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How do you feel about Barkley and taking a rb that high?
I'd be OK with that if they are not thrilled with the QBs. But now, given this turn of events, I wouldn't pass up a huge trade deal if offered.
I disagree. Hyde is good, young, and can carry the rock for them for a number of years. RB is no longer a position of need for the Browns, a young QB absolutely is.
Giants are taking a Qb
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
If youre gonna assume that haul fixes the OL with all pros then I will counter that the qb you just traded down from is a perennial pro bowl franchise leader. So no thanks. Gimme the stud qb.
Clearly the Jets offered this pick to the Giants and we turned them down.
Theres no way, that we would have turned down that trade if we were not focused on QB. We would have had a decent chance at any position player we wanted at 6 (guanratee atleast 3 QBs taken in top 5) plus gotten two/three more higher picks. That would have been huge for us.
I love Barkley as a huge PSU fan, but theres no way hed be worth turning that package down and Id be SHOCKED if the Giants disagreed with that.
The only other reason they would have turned this trade down, in a world where they are not sold on a QB, is if they had a better trade down lined up (very doubtful).
Totally disagree. Maybe they didn't think that trade was worth it. Maybe the Giants think they can get a better deal, and now with the Jets moving to 3, it increases the chances of that.
Very smart move by DG in passing on this,IMO.
Hell, if they wanted to trade with the Jets now, they could get their 1 next year + just to go back 1 spot! I'd take that over going back four spots for a few 2's.
1. Browns.........QB
2. Giants...........? (Barkley or QB)
3. Jets...............QB
4. Browns.........? (Barkley or Chubb)
5. Denver..........QB
6. Colts.............? (Chubb or Nelson)
Miami at 11, Buffalo at 12 and Arizona at 15 still could be in play to get in the QB sweepstakes.
Buffalo is the only team with the Treasure Chest in place to move into the top 4. And it will cost a Treasure Chest full of picks. No threes or lower. Send your ones and twos.
You want a QB, pay me.
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Barkley isn't going in the top 3 picks. Just doesn't fit the narrative.
-Jets didn't trade all those assets for a move to get a RB.
-Giants won't turn down multiple 1 round picks for a RB.
-Makes ZERO sense for the Browns to trade up to pick #2 for Barkley when they'll likely have him at 4.
-NYG not trading back with NYJ is very telling in my opinion. Its a QB unless DG gets that "offer he can't refuse".
Giants would never trade back with them. I think it will be
Darnold
Rosen
Allen
Barkley
Mayfield
I think Gettleman will do whats best for the Giants, If a team offers a ransom I don't think it matters the name of the team. But for them to move out of 2, and passing on a QB, its going to take more than a few 2nd round picks. Multiple 1st would have to be involved. The Jets likely weighed their options.. I'm assuming they have the QBs closely rated and felt separating with more assets wasn't necessary.
I can see the top 5 like that as well.
Shouldnt you know not to take public comments at face value? I have no idea why so many people are taking these comments so literally.
Both 1s, 2nd in 2018, and 2nd & maybe a 3rd in 2019?
We'll see.
that would be a total disaster...not that they drafted nelson but the value of that pick isn't there for nelson. U need to get value if you are drafting nelson.
I know the Jets are desperate, but they could have stayed at 6 and taken the one that fell into their lap. I wonder who they are targeting.
Not necessarily. If your QB is Tyrod, McCown, Osweiler, or McCarron you know you have zero shot at winning anything significant. That being the case, if a guy looks to have franchise potential, you roll the dice. This type of shit happens almost every year.
Look at Mahomes. Look at Tribusky. Look at the teams that maneuvered for those guys. Dont look like legit QBs to me but teams are gonna move and gamble if the alternative is perpetual mediocrity at best.
At the brink, we are? We could also just stay at 2.
Both 1s, 2nd in 2018, and 2nd & maybe a 3rd in 2019?
both there 1's this year and there there 2019 1st...and thats just to start the conversation. Other picks will be added.
12
But 12 and 22 are involved and 2019 1st...then we can at least start negotiations
Cleveland-QB
Giants-QB
Jets-QB
Cleveland-Trade with Miami or Buffalo
Denver would be shut out of all 4 QBs. Even if Cleveland doesn't trade down, Denver would be left with the 4th best option at QB. If I'm DG, I call Elway and say make me an offer I can't refuse and guarantee you get to choose between the three QBs left after Cleveland picks #1.
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In 1 or 2 years Just where is our next QB going to come from if we trade out? The Days of "sure thing" college qbs like Luck are a thing of the past due to multiple variables. Are we going to offer up a kings ransom like the ones you are dreaming about for the #2 pick to get our guy?
Could be Webb. Depends on what the Giants think of him
Also, regarding Nelson, I thought I read from Colin that Nelson is not that much better than the OG projected for round 2. Did anyone else see that? If yes, why the clamor for him top 5?
Also, if Barkley is this generational RB, and I dont agree, why couldnt the Jets have traded up for him. I dont think they gave up that much. Why so sure its the QB?
Both 1s, 2nd in 2018, and 2nd & maybe a 3rd in 2019?
Need a 1st in 2019 in place of the 2nd or 3rd or no deal.
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In comment 13870754 Ira said:
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or to trade with us, as there's less chance the qb that they want is available at the 4th pick.
This ^^^
my god...dream scenario
Browns want to secure barkley and darnold
they trade #4 and a similar trade with the Jets (get there two two's 33 and 35 and there second rounder next year.
Giants now have #4, #33, #34, and #35
Then bills get desperate to move up after darnold and whoever the jets pick is off the board and want to jump the broncos. They offer the giants
#12, #22, #53, and 56 and there 1st round pikc next year.
So the giants would have
#12, #22, #33, #34, #35, #53, and #56 in the 1st two rounds this year plus the Bills first round pick next year and the browns 2nd round pick next year.
I only do this if the Giants think Webb can be the franchise Qb...but if they do this could rebuild the giants roster in two years.
I like those draft numbers... sign me the F up!!!
Trade down with Buffalo: no thanks. 12 is too far back. They'd have to do something really special to get me to drop back 10 spots in this draft. They'd have to send the standard amount of picks and an ascending player to boot. Someone like Dion Dawkins. And that's not going to happen.
Trade down with Denver: Doable, but likely not nice as Cleveland. You still get a top 5 pick, add another in the top 40, and at least their first next year. In addition to a 3rd this yr and possibly next. And when next April rolls around, if you love on of the QBs, you have the ammo to go get them without crippling yourself for years.
Cleveland: This is the sweet spot IMO. At 4 you're getting Nelson/Chubb/Fitzpatrick as well as 33 and 35 overall, giving you the top 3 picks of the second round. It will lower the compensation on the back end but in all likelihood you're still getting the 1st yr as well. For a team with so many needs this is the ideal situation. You're adding one of the top players in the draft and getting 3 borderline first round talents at the top of the 2nd. That's the kind of trade that can quickly reverse a teams fortunes. The same potential to trade up next draft still applies as well.
I was unsure what I wanted the team to do up to this point but to me it's clear now: you pray Cleveland loves one of these QBs, you hold their feet to the fire, and you rebuild your roster. It might take some patience, it might even take until we're on the clock, but it's very possible if not likely.
This is compelling stuff. I'd rather not be at 2 overall, but it's a decent consolation for such a shitty season. It's also worth noting that this is opportune as all hell. The Giants haven't picked this high in decades. They're not likely to again in decades. The timing is immaculate.
Cleveland-QB
Giants-QB
Jets-QB
Cleveland-Trade with Miami or Buffalo
Denver would be shut out of all 4 QBs. Even if Cleveland doesn't trade down, Denver would be left with the 4th best option at QB. If I'm DG, I call Elway and say make me an offer I can't refuse and guarantee you get to choose between the three QBs left after Cleveland picks #1.
Cleveland would more likely take Barkley at 4. They already have plenty of picks.
it is really that simple.
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puts pressure on Denver. It's now possible that the top 4 QBs will all be gone before they pick, if Cleveland is willing to trade down out of #4. A little easier for Miami or Buffalo to move up to #4 than it is to move to #2. Say it unfolds this way:
Cleveland-QB
Giants-QB
Jets-QB
Cleveland-Trade with Miami or Buffalo
Denver would be shut out of all 4 QBs. Even if Cleveland doesn't trade down, Denver would be left with the 4th best option at QB. If I'm DG, I call Elway and say make me an offer I can't refuse and guarantee you get to choose between the three QBs left after Cleveland picks #1.
Cleveland would more likely take Barkley at 4. They already have plenty of picks.
You add Darnold and Barkley, that is some haul
I really dont think so. Id rather have a very good but not HoF QB than a HoF Guard, for example. Im guessing DG would feel the same but who knows.
And being a HoF talent and being a HoFer are vastly different things. Tons of HoF talent didnt pan out to shit.
Who the (blank) cares what the Jets do. That's
irrelevant unless you have an odd obsession with sports news.
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Maybe if out QB were 5 years younger but don't overthink it. It's like the Giants taking Robert Gallery in 2004 (if he were still around) rather than Eli.
Colts traded down because they don't need a QB and there's a market for the high pick they had. They move back only 3 spots and get (3) 2nd round picks for it.
I meant why is everyone obsessed with US trading down to get Nelson. If we were picking 8th or something maybe. But if you have an opportunity to get a QB in a draft that until everyone started overanalyzing was pretty strong at QB you do it. I would be ok with Barkley if they think he has a good shot to be an all time great. Not a guard.
If you are taking someone at #2 who is less of a talent than Eli, then I think you are not drafting the right QB at that particular spot.
Who the (blank) cares what the Jets do. That's
irrelevant unless you have an odd obsession with sports news.
If they let the Jets get a franchise QB while not ending up with one of their own, theyll never hear the end of it from most of their fans.
You don't know that jt. I know you have conviction Eli still has top years left but that doesn't mean the Giants do.
Remember when Mara signed off on the benching of Eli? Remember when he gave the directive to heavily scout the top QBs coming out this year? I have made it no secret I want a QB at two. I also believe they will take one at 2. Maybe I am wrong, but you could be wrong too.
I think you are correct and they are super high on Barkley. But if they pass up a massive trade deal and take the RB, he had better be Payton-esque.
Holy crap, talk about insecurity.
But...Is anyone letting go of a HOF guard?
I guess what I am saying, is how good does that QB need to be? BCause the unique guard might be more rare than say, a folles or cousins or what have you.
How very good is very good?
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
Why is nobody talking about a draft where we get Barkley/Nelson in the first and a QB like Lauletta in the second. To me, Lauletta looks pretty damn good, so if we can trade back and get extra picks and end up using an additional pick on Lauletta, great
If you are taking someone at #2 who is less of a talent than Eli, then I think you are not drafting the right QB at that particular spot.
Very few.
Link - ( New Window )
I don't see the difference so I guess you don't know what to tell me.
If you are taking someone at #2 who is less of a talent than Eli, then I think you are not drafting the right QB at that particular spot.
what?? You realize its 2018 and Eli is not the guy you describe above, right?
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Take Barkley or trade down
I think you are correct and they are super high on Barkley. But if they pass up a massive trade deal and take the RB, he had better be Payton-esque.
at minimum the giants need to make the browns believe this so that now that he jets have forced the browns hand to pick a QB @ #1 the giants need to force the browns to trade up to #2 to get barkley
Giants need to put it out there they are either selection Darnold/Barkley at #2 whoever the browns don't take and then reap the rewards if someone blows us away with a trade.
(2) Giants have three great options
(2A) Take Barkley
(2B) Take a QB
(2C) Trade out of the spot
As pointed by others the value of that spot just went up a lot. Whatever Buffalo thought they had to pay to move up from 12 just got a couple of draft picks added to it. I could see the Giants, if they want Barkley, to extorting another draft pick out of the Jets. Or getting a haul from a couple of other teams.
It is now the world's best poker game and from my perspective, the NY Giants control the table.
I don't think you're following this. The Jets traded up to get a QB. The other QB desperate teams now have to seriously push for trading up in front of the Jets. It means our #2 pick just dramatically increased in value.
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In comment 13871015 jtgiants said:
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Take Barkley or trade down
I think you are correct and they are super high on Barkley. But if they pass up a massive trade deal and take the RB, he had better be Payton-esque.
at minimum the giants need to make the browns believe this so that now that he jets have forced the browns hand to pick a QB @ #1 the giants need to force the browns to trade up to #2 to get barkley
Giants need to put it out there they are either selection Darnold/Barkley at #2 whoever the browns don't take and then reap the rewards if someone blows us away with a trade.
Why, it's just as likely QBs go in the first 3 picks and they get Barkley at 4.
Denver has to worry about Bills jumping them to move to 4.
If giants go QB the best Denver can do is QB 4
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if you are comparing prospects to a guy we drafted almost 15 years ago, I dont know what to tell you.
I don't see the difference so I guess you don't know what to tell me.
The difference is QBs play if different offense now with less responsibility. They also have 5,000 beat writers and armchair scouts critiquing their every move.
Its 2018, the perfect prospect doesnt exist. If you are waiting for he next Eli Manning you are going to be waiting a while.
Goff, Wentz, etc all have/had warts in college. We have to hit on a guy with warts, whether you want to admit it or not.
Holy crap, talk about insecurity.
The Maras have always kept an eye out on the Jets. Maybe Wellington did more, but its still a factor. Dont kid yourself. Plus Darnold or Rosen are worth taking at 2
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the Jets traded up, we should trade back and ignore the fact that Barkley is an amazing, elite prospect? Thats really stupid.
I don't think you're following this. The Jets traded up to get a QB. The other QB desperate teams now have to seriously push for trading up in front of the Jets. It means our #2 pick just dramatically increased in value.
I dont see the same thing. There are 4 QBs. Denver is currently in position to grab the 4th.
Alot of these teams would be happy to grab any of Them. The pick that they need to get in front of is Denvers. The 4 pick just gained in value.
(2) Just because YOU think they are worthy of the #2 spot does not make it so.
Denver has to worry about Bills jumping them to move to 4.
If giants go QB the best Denver can do is QB 4
Denver has to do something. They now face the very real scenario that Darnold, Rosen, and Mayfield may all be gone before they pick. Same for the Bills (a certainty in their case)
We have the correct HC to draft a QB that has some flaws. If we cant find a good prospect now we arent going to find it picking in the teens and 20s.
Ok, sorry. It wasn't clear.
I agree
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If they want a top 4 QB.
Denver has to worry about Bills jumping them to move to 4.
If giants go QB the best Denver can do is QB 4
Denver has to do something. They now face the very real scenario that Darnold, Rosen, and Mayfield may all be gone before they pick. Same for the Bills (a certainty in their case)
Allen too, I should add.
Again, why is the QB slot subject to different rules? How is taking Barkley any different?
Why cant i say- he better be Ezekiel Elliott or better?
In terms of relative value the QB drafted will be paid NFl backup mondy for 5 years. Barkley will be paid top 5 in NFL.
Can anyone guarantee that Barkley is a top 5 NFL RB?
I guess if he does that several times its a HOF-talent so I will stipulate...
And that isnt what Im saying and you know it. You seem to want another Eli Manning. Cant blame you for wanting that but it likely isnt happening. So do you think Shurmur can take a slightly lesser prospect and make him good? Because thats really all that matters. If the answer is yes than you run to the podium. If its no then you look elsewhere.
But to say you better get Elis talent at 2 or else is foolish. Look at the other guys drafted in recent history that are in the playoffs year 2 putting up great numbers. None of them had Elis pedigree.
I don't think Mara would ever live that down. Not in the NY market.
(2) Just because YOU think they are worthy of the #2 spot does not make it so.
Just because You think they are not worthy doesnt make it do either.
You used tbe pundit argument in your post to me, well id point it back to you. Clearky alot do and several NFL teams onbviousky think these QBs are worth it plus the "kings ransom" to move up and get them,
Well thats the $100 million question that no one including GMs know the answer to.
Holy crap, talk about insecurity.
Agree. You should not care about what another team does unless it's in your own division. My personal opinion is that the Giants are in the drivers seat and could care less what the other teams do below them. They have a choice of a franchise QB or potential super star RB. DG will not trade down unless there is a knock your socks of offer. IMO, it's between Darnold, Barkley, and Rosen at #2.
If you take Darnold or Rosen at #2, they had better be Eli (who went to a couple of Pro Bowls, had one superb season and a few other very good seasons) at that spot. Because you can get a lesser player lower in the first round.
The only reason Barkley is in the discussion right now is because many people feel he is the best running back to come along in years. (May or may not be true but a lot of people feel that way).
Now if the Giants feel Darnold or Rosen have the ability to be regular Pro Bowl-type quarterbacks, you take one of them. If you don't, you pass on the guy. You don't just take the QB. (And I've been the guy for months around here who has been leading the charge on drafting a QB).
Unless Dorsey or DG leaked something that confirmed they will not take QB X.
Writers say Mayfield, but now seems Rosen, Darnold Allen.
If its Baker Mayfield, its good NYG had 5 guys at his pro day, even if just a charade.
Indy the early big #2 winner in the pre- draft. They and Cleveland own rd 2.
Giants should bug the Jets offices, find out who the he or they QB is, then drop a boatload of rumors they want they same guys. Put a little scare into them if its just a he.
"Shadow" their faxes to QB agents.
Or contact Indy, see if they want the #2.
Glad for Indy after the McDaniels Screw Job.
You know what else sets teams back? Picking the wrong non-QB at 2 as well.
I'd do it just for their 1 next year if DG doesn't want a QB.
It accomplishes a few things IMO:
Forces the Browns hand even further to take a QB at 1, and ensures whatever guy DG does want is still there at 3.
It makes the #3 even more valuable now to a team who wants a QB (Denver) and could get us another 1 next year + other picks.
That could leave us with a Costner/Draft Day type of scenario. Adding two #1's next year, plus, and still getting one of Barkley,Chubb,Nelson or Fitzpatrick at 5!
This would be my ideal draft day scenario.
You know what else sets teams back? Picking the wrong non-QB at 2 as well.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I've said repeatedly on this thread that the Giants should now (1) draft the QB at #2 if they have a conviction on him, or (2) trade down if they don't.
The Giants are in a great position here right now, the type of position GMs dream about.
The pick is to take a chance on a QB. If the choice is between Wentz and Zeke, you take Wentz every time if you need a QB.
Taking the wrong QB and being so stubborn you can't see it for 4 years does...
You're limiting your thinking on this. What if the Giants have high grades on other QBs in this draft? And they are then also offered multiple #1 and #2 picks?
Taking the wrong QB and being so stubborn you can't see it for 4 years does...
The Giants GM doesn't agree with you.
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You're not following me. I'm talking 2004 version of Eli, not the 2018 version. If you take a QB at #2, you had better be taking another Eli Manning or better.
Again, why is the QB slot subject to different rules? How is taking Barkley any different?
Why cant i say- he better be Ezekiel Elliott or better?
In terms of relative value the QB drafted will be paid NFl backup mondy for 5 years. Barkley will be paid top 5 in NFL.
Can anyone guarantee that Barkley is a top 5 NFL RB?
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If Browns take a QB if the Jets offered next years 1 (should be a top 10) pick). Or would you need more players etc?
I'd do it just for their 1 next year if DG doesn't want a QB.
It accomplishes a few things IMO:
Forces the Browns hand even further to take a QB at 1, and ensures whatever guy DG does want is still there at 3.
It makes the #3 even more valuable now to a team who wants a QB (Denver) and could get us another 1 next year + other picks.
That could leave us with a Costner/Draft Day type of scenario. Adding two #1's next year, plus, and still getting one of Barkley,Chubb,Nelson or Fitzpatrick at 5!
This would be my ideal draft day scenario.
What if John Dorsey call and says, Im eating my pancakes and thinking about moving No. 1?
better to take that risk then go more years without a QB
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set you back 5 years.
Taking the wrong QB and being so stubborn you can't see it for 4 years does...
The Giants GM doesn't agree with you.
My entire point is that a slightly less talented QB than Eli can have a HoF career. That is why I dont care about the DG quotes, it could mean several different things.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
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Move by the Jets. If the QB they get doesn't pan out, it could set the franchise back for awhile.
better to take that risk then go more years without a QB
Now if the Giants feel Darnold or Rosen have the ability to be regular Pro Bowl-type quarterbacks, you take one of them. If you don't, you pass on the guy. You don't just take the QB. (And I've been the guy for months around here who has been leading the charge on drafting a QB).
I am good with this section of your post Eric.
And for the record, I have been quite vocal about the ABSOLUTE NEED to draft a QB; the ability to do so because there are future pro bowlers in this draft, imv; and teams don't find themselves at #2 very often.
If the Jets try that, Cleveland will t t a kings ransom in spite of ANY of various charts' values; they already sold out RDS 1 & 2 in 18, and 2 in 19. They'd have to sell the 1 and 3 in 19 and the 1 in'20 I would think. If so they better be right about the QB.
He said that you have to compare the 2 pick to other years. Are they worth the not just in this draft but others?
Id also say, ive heard similar comments about Rosen. Comments like hes the most polished since Luck or best QB prospect in 5 years.
Ive had also some posts about the Giants thinking.
I had a post called the Case for Pat Shurmur arguing based on Mara/Gettleman quotes that the Giants will like Shurmur. This was before the search.
I had a post called the Case for Josh Rosen that used quotes from Gettleman/Shurmur to argue that Rosen is the QB that they will like.
I think the pick will be Rosen at 2
How many hofers get traded or moved during their prime years? 1-100.
You couldnt give me enough to move down to 12.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
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set you back 5 years.
Taking the wrong QB and being so stubborn you can't see it for 4 years does...
The Giants GM doesn't agree with you.
No, he just didn't embellish on it with additional sentences...
The pick is to take a chance on a QB. If the choice is between Wentz and Zeke, you take Wentz every time if you need a QB.
Somebody started drinking early for St. Patrick's Day.
Only trade down if you dont love the qbs and Barkley goes 1.
I wont even allow for the possibly that the giants dont love the qbs and dont love Barkley because thats just absurd.
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In comment 13871058 Carl in CT said:
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If Browns take a QB if the Jets offered next years 1 (should be a top 10) pick). Or would you need more players etc?
I'd do it just for their 1 next year if DG doesn't want a QB.
It accomplishes a few things IMO:
Forces the Browns hand even further to take a QB at 1, and ensures whatever guy DG does want is still there at 3.
It makes the #3 even more valuable now to a team who wants a QB (Denver) and could get us another 1 next year + other picks.
That could leave us with a Costner/Draft Day type of scenario. Adding two #1's next year, plus, and still getting one of Barkley,Chubb,Nelson or Fitzpatrick at 5!
This would be my ideal draft day scenario.
What if John Dorsey call and says, Im eating my pancakes and thinking about moving No. 1?
Haha. I teed it up for you and you knocked it right down the fairway. Well played.
Seriously, if that happened I'd hear him out but I don't want the Giants moving up and giving up assets.
I want them either taking their guy at 2, or adding more assets to move back no farther than 5. It would be great if DG could swing a couple of trades to move back a couple of spots if they move from #2.
But if you take a QB at #1 or #2, you are expecting to draft a guy who will be an elite QB in this league. That's the expectation.
I am not saying the Giants should or shouldn't draft any particular player. I'm merely pointing out that the premium will always be placed on the QB. Now you add the HUGE turn of events that the TRADE value of our #2 pick just went WAY UP.
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Somebody started drinking early for St. Patrick's Day.
Nope I am being real. Barley isnot a slam dunk HoF. Peopel are talking here like he is. He is an excellent prospect who earns his yards flying outside and leaping over defenders - in college. In the pros if you do that you get hurt or fail. He has not shown he is a banger like Zeke. Sorry but people are going too far that Barkley is a slam dunk.
The Giants need to draft a QB.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
Are the Giants telegraphing again? I had a whole post on this - Giants Not Telegraphing Moves Anymore- BBI Act Accordingly. I linked it.
To use your own logic, tbe Giants "have " to have 1 QB above others that they want.
If thats the case, they cannot telegraph because they dont control that destiny. Cleveland does. The Giants must be cloak & dagger or risk having a trade there.
My post - ( New Window )
It kinda does since the Giants are the number 2 pick and he said the first 3 picks..
It would be foolish for the Giants to make such a move now without even completing pro day/interview evaluations.
I don't think Dottino has a clue of what the Giants are thinking.
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How can you be so sure? I'm not.
Id find it odd that all the teams want to trade up desperately for one of these QBs but the Giants think theyre garbage? Doesnt add up
It's not a question of evaluating the QBs as "garbage." It's evaluating each one against the potential haul of blue chip/quality players at positions of need. I agree with Eric: unless you have an unshakeable conviction on a QB available at 2, you make the trade with whichever team is desperate to move up. Also, if Giants have such a conviction on one of the QBs Browns draft him at 1, you don't take another one as a consolation prize. You make the deal.
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doesn't know anything. Nobody does. But even if he's right, that doesn't mean the Giants will be one of those teams.
It kinda does since the Giants are the number 2 pick and he said the first 3 picks..
No, it doesn't, because the Giants could trade out of the #2 pick.
Jets, and hopefully the Bills, can smell Patriots blood spilling with all the recent rumors and failures in Foxboro the last 5 months. Bills would be better off picking( but if they have a wood for a QB and will tank for the future I'd at least listen).
Webb shouldn't have anything to do with anything. They don't owe him a year of everyone else's careers.
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In comment 13871136 AcidTest said:
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doesn't know anything. Nobody does. But even if he's right, that doesn't mean the Giants will be one of those teams.
It kinda does since the Giants are the number 2 pick and he said the first 3 picks..
No, it doesn't, because the Giants could trade out of the #2 pick.
He was commenting on who are there in those spots right now.
If they really like Webb and have conviction on him, there's no possible scenario where they would draft a QB.
Or see if the Jets are willing to give up next year's #1 to move up to #2.
If I'm DG, I'm letting it out here I want a QB at 2. Either force the Jets to not settle for the 3rd QB or other teams who want one to get antsy. I'd start with the Jets first and then Denver. Maybe both if it fell right.
DG - turn the 2>3, and then the 3>5. IMO, in that scenario of QBs going 1,2,and 3 Barkley could still be there at 5. Not guaranteed but possible especially if the Browns are interested in Chubb as has been rumored.
There is a vibe out there that the Giants may not take a QB at #2. I would if I had a conviction on the guy. Because think Eli is near done.
But if someone calls Gettleman and says we will give you multiple picks in this and future drafts, I think you have to seriously listen. We have five picks. This team needs a lot of help. What if you could ensure having two #1s this year and 2019 plus an extra #2?
Carl, I honestly would wait until the Giants are on the clock. Remember how Accorsi discussed the conversations on draft day with the Eli trade? The longer the Giants wait, the more than can get. If they don't get a great deal, you take the player.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
this is supposed to mean what in your view? That a QB is off the table? please...
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
You mean Davis Webb Dottino?
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In comment 13871144 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13871136 AcidTest said:
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doesn't know anything. Nobody does. But even if he's right, that doesn't mean the Giants will be one of those teams.
It kinda does since the Giants are the number 2 pick and he said the first 3 picks..
No, it doesn't, because the Giants could trade out of the #2 pick.
He was commenting on who are there in those spots right now.
And that comment is pure speculation since the Giants might well trade out.
Right. But that doesn't mean you still don't just take your guy at 2. You think Gettleman is saying to himself "gee we should probably take this trade offer because there's a decent chance whoever we take at 2 won't be good"? That could happen with any pick Eric.
DG may not agree on the level of desperation.
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Would you be happy if the Giants came away with Nelson and additional #1 and/or #2 picks in 2018/2019? I would.
Problem is trading to 12. Nelson won't be there. I have no issue trading back if you stay in top 10.. but to move to 12, you lose all shot at Nelson or any blue chip player. Maybe Denver at 5? That might be perfect.
People should stop thinking this way. Blue chips, red chips...there is a grade on every guy. There is a PERCEIVED drop off in talent at some point. I believe 4 QBs will be taken in the top 11 picks, maybe in the top 5 picks. Then you have Barkley, Chubb, Minkah and Nelson, as the consensus top 4 elite players. But nobody knows how the draft is going to shake out.
Where was Zack Martin drafted? Odell was taken 12th, right? OBJ is a HOF-level talent. Who says at 12 that Tremaine Edmunds or Vita Vea or Roquan Smith won't make the HOF? What about Mike McGlinchey, Derwin James, or Joshua Jackson?
There is a lot of talent. Sure, I would love Barkley, but what if instead of one superb talent, I got 3 very good talents, that all could start, and perhaps at least one of them actually IS a superb talent that in retrospect would've been drafted sooner?
It's not about quantity over quality. It's about the quality of the quantity over the 1 quality player.
If I can get Roquan Smith, a guard like Isaiah Wynn, and a RB like Rashaad Penny with the picks I get for trading out of the opportunity to get one Saquon Barkley? And then I ALSO get the opportunity to have an EXTRA high first round draft pick next year? You have to consider that may be a smarter thing to do than just to take the one player like Barkley or Nelson.
But if you take a QB at #1 or #2, you are expecting to draft a guy who will be an elite QB in this league. That's the expectation. [/quote]
I really dont understand this argument. Do you think anyone takes a player at 2 and doesnt think they will be elite at that position?
Was Greg Robinson taken at #2 in 2015 with the expectation hed be an average OL? Or was he supposed to be an average OT? Or was he supposed to be franchise LT for a decade?
I expect any player to be elite that we draft at #2. what I find perplexing is that everyone seems to only find flaws at QB and therefore that these other guys will just solve our other needs with no risk of bust.
Barkley, Nelson, Chubb, Fitzpatrick , etc. Whoever. If taken at 2 they will have the expectation of being elite
And the fact is - they could bust. Just as easily as a QB. Every pick is a risk.
Even the cherished Saquon Barkley.
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In comment 13871150 AcidTest said:
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In comment 13871144 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13871136 AcidTest said:
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doesn't know anything. Nobody does. But even if he's right, that doesn't mean the Giants will be one of those teams.
It kinda does since the Giants are the number 2 pick and he said the first 3 picks..
No, it doesn't, because the Giants could trade out of the #2 pick.
He was commenting on who are there in those spots right now.
And that comment is pure speculation since the Giants might well trade out.
He's right alot more than he is wrong.
^^^^ THIS IS THE KEY POINT ^^^^^
As long as I've been a Giants fan, the team has never been in this position before.
If they really like Webb and have conviction on him, there's no possible scenario where they would draft a QB.
I agree. Webb has a lot to do with this. If the Giants evaluation is that he is as good as anyone coming out, then they can focus their draft on a starting RB who could be great or they could trade down and get a load of picks to fill multiple holes. This is an advantage we have if Webb can be the guy. If they don't think Webb is as good, then draft a QB.
I am not a fan of having Webb battle it out with the #2 pick if he is a QB. That is a waste. We'd have two top picks sitting on the bench for two years, and you know only one will get real reps (likely the #2 guy). Its a falicy that we could "develop" two backup QBs. If we pick a QB then I say package Webb in a trade for a pick or something else.
+1.
Was just gonna post that idea. A QB at either 1 or 4, 1@ #3 a likely 1 @ #2, and betting you can duplicate the Keenum magic for 1 or 2 years and hope you get to be able to acquire a QB in the next 2 drafts, or another rental from someone's bench, is a diminishing op for success; unless you are not in love with 1 or 2 QBs in '18.
Denver has holes, and how long can Von Miller play? I don't think Denver trades up, will fill holes,and go from there. Hope I am wrong and JE loves a couple of guys.
Jimmy Googs... it's not just Dottino... there are whispers out there the team isn't going QB. Could be smoke. Could be bunk. But they are out there.
Right off the top you're starting from two different zip codes.
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fucking happens - this is great stuff. Giants own the keys to the draft at this point
^^^^ THIS IS THE KEY POINT ^^^^^
As long as I've been a Giants fan, the team has never been in this position before.
If Reese were still the GM today then you wouldnt feel this way.
The reason the Giants are in a much better place now is b/c ownership finally got rid of Reese and McAdoo, and hired a competent GM. Who in turn hired a competent coach.
I dont see any scenario in which the Browns dont take a QB at #1.
And I think Barkley is the BPA in this draft, period. I badly want him to be the Giants pick at #2. Reaching for players like Pugh and Flowers is why the team is picking #2. Dont force a pick for a QB.
Anyone else wonder why the Jets didnt make this trade closer to draft day? I guess they thought the price would go up?
I think Allen is the Jets guy.
Interesting. I think they like Rosen and are assuming that Darnold and Allen will go first. I also think the timing is interesting in that Rosen just had his pro day.
I'm thinking Rosen, or they may like Mayfield as well, but my gut tells me that Rosen is their top choice.
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you guys have to also keep in mind is that the odds are that 2 or 3 of the top guys picked in this draft are not going to be outstanding football players. Go back and look at all of the drafts and who was taking with the top five picks.
Right. But that doesn't mean you still don't just take your guy at 2. You think Gettleman is saying to himself "gee we should probably take this trade offer because there's a decent chance whoever we take at 2 won't be good"? That could happen with any pick Eric.
But if you get 5 guys instead of one, the odds go up. I am not advocating it, but there is a certain bet hedging to having more picks.
If Denver wants to move up it will cost them big time.
I don't think Bills have the juice to move to 2.
When you don't have a QB, you'll do anything to get one.
Thanks god the colts won the last game of the year;)
Jimmy Googs... it's not just Dottino... there are whispers out there the team isn't going QB. Could be smoke. Could be bunk. But they are out there.
You dont move down unless the price is right. And it better be a serious haul to move down. If Barkley wasnt in the draft its different. But hes the best player in the draft. By far.
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To move out of the #2 spot.
I dont see any scenario in which the Browns dont take a QB at #1.
And I think Barkley is the BPA in this draft, period. I badly want him to be the Giants pick at #2. Reaching for players like Pugh and Flowers is why the team is picking #2. Dont force a pick for a QB.
Anyone else wonder why the Jets didnt make this trade closer to draft day? I guess they thought the price would go up?
I think Allen is the Jets guy.
Interesting. I think they like Rosen and are assuming that Darnold and Allen will go first. I also think the timing is interesting in that Rosen just had his pro day.
I'm thinking Rosen, or they may like Mayfield as well, but my gut tells me that Rosen is their top choice.
Who would be taking which QB? Darnold seems like he's always referred to as a Browns favorite, so Allen to the Giants? Or Allen to a team who trades with the Giants for 2?
Michael Strahan was a #2 pick. So was Chris Snee. You can get outstanding football players anywhere in the draft. Now if you have a supreme conviction on a player at #2, you take him. But if are not 100 percent convinced, and a team offers two #1s and one or two #2s, you can turn your roster around very quickly with that.
If the Giants think Rosen is likely to be an impact player in this league. Pick him. But if they don't like his health history, character, etc., you'd have to listen to other offers.
If they really like Webb and have conviction on him, there's no possible scenario where they would draft a QB.
'If they have conviction on Webb' is a big if. What they say they like about him are the same things people in those jobs said they loved about Ryan Nassib. I'm not dismissing it completely, but are we just taking it on faith that Jerry Reese hit a home run here? It'd be the first time he was ever right on a QB and one of the few times he was right in that round.
Exactly. That's the point.
The giants cant fart without someone reading into it. They cant mske a fa signing signing someone using that move as some sort of draft clue.
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that's where i think people are missing the boat on this If Giants new brass loves Webb, why in the hell would they draft another QB when they could take Barkley or trade down and get a shitload of picks, plus another 1st rounder?
If they really like Webb and have conviction on him, there's no possible scenario where they would draft a QB.
'If they have conviction on Webb' is a big if. What they say they like about him are the same things people in those jobs said they loved about Ryan Nassib. I'm not dismissing it completely, but are we just taking it on faith that Jerry Reese hit a home run here? It'd be the first time he was ever right on a QB and one of the few times he was right in that round.
Exactly how I feel about Webb. People are counting on a Reese 2nd round pick, at QB to pan out? Wow.
Right off the top you're starting from two different zip codes.
I have a different take. It's hard to have a discussion on this when some are absolutely convinced that they know for a fact that the QB or RB are sure bets. There are no sure bets. It's a subjective process and the NFL graveyard is littered with failed top 5 picks. Again, you can't live in fear as a team - you have to trust your scouts. But I have no idea which player in this draft will be the best player in the NFL. And no one on this thread does either, despite what they say.
That would increase the value of #2 even more,IMO. A LOT more.
The Jets could worry Denver trades with the Giants and jumps them, so they offer their 1 next year to move up to 2.
Denver worries they'll be shit out of luck at 5 with the top 3 QBs going before them and Elway offers a huge haul to go from 5 > 3.
Imagine the 2021 SB champs with Webb throwing to Engram, Shep and OBJ. And Collins as DPOY. LOL.
I feel safe in saying that shurmur and DG have Webb in their thoughts when it comes to drafting a qb. They didnt draft Webb and havent seen him practice. Hes a near non factor that could become a factor if and when. And no sooner.
Now is that too much to ask?
I love Barkley. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard "there is no way this guy can be a bust" and then he ends up being a bust.
Enjoy for the moment how relevant the Giants are.
It only took an abysmal 2017 season and bearing thru it...
I love Barkley. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard "there is no way this guy can be a bust" and then he ends up being a bust.
True. To me, without saying he "definitely" won't be a bust (which he won't...lol) Barkley is the safest, cleanest, elite level prospect in the draft.
Even if Cleveland does go with Barkley at 1, which is really doubtful now, whoever wants to desperately trade up will get the top QB in the draft ahead of the Jets. The Giants are either walking away with Barkley, whoever they think the best QB in this draft is or a huge haul from a team that is desperate for a franchise QB. I guess the first two things were always going to happen but the third is basically assured now as well. If they want to trade down which I'm not fully convinced of.
Your line is fixed, and now includes a perennial pro bowler at guard.
And you have extra picks now to spend on another QB, a WR, etc.
But trading down for a huge haul spreads the risk. Happy whichever way the Giants play it
Buffalo is way too far down.
Bush was 200 pounds and was not the every down back in college that Barkley was. Not a fair comparison.
1. Browns.........QB
2. Giants...........? (Barkley or QB)
3. Jets...............QB
4. Browns.........? (Barkley or Chubb)
5. Denver..........QB
6. Colts.............? (Chubb or Nelson)
Miami at 11, Buffalo at 12 and Arizona at 15 still could be in play to get in the QB sweepstakes.
Buffalo is the only team with the Treasure Chest in place to move into the top 4. And it will cost a Treasure Chest full of picks. No threes or lower. Send your ones and twos.
You want a QB, pay me.
Don't see AZ moving with the Bradford&Pugh signings, just rebuilding. See Miami rebuilding as well. Unless Bills think one of these kids can win Immediately AND they can compete still with what they have, they likely keep the picks
to improve overall, or trade for Foles using picks for a providen( if only a short term proven).
This is clearly one of the best QB classes in years. There is clearly a massive QB market on these guys, The overwhelming likelihood is that 4 QBs go top 10 and probably top 5.
Unless you think our scouts are some how the leagues best scouts and can intuit that all 4 will not be very good, which we have a terrible recent history of .
The question is not whether or not our scouts like 1 of these guys.
The question is whether or not you think we Need a QB or not.
if the answer is yes. Then you draft a QB and you can decide which one you like best.
The reason this is the question is because if you are wrong. And you need a QB. very shortly you will find yourself not being able to have the luxury to ask the question of do my scouts like this QB and you will have to draft or pay or trade for whoever happens to become available.
You will find yourself desperate to trade anything to move up to get whoever is there. Giving up multiple 1s.
You will find yourself paying 80+ mil to the Kirk Cousins guaranteed if they happen to be available.
You will find yourself needing to trade for backups and hoping they can do it.
Right now, the Giants have the rare luxury of deciding which QB they like. They have a choice.
If we are wrong about not needing one. They will be wishing for the opportunity to get whoever happens to be available.
They probably like more than one QB, they might have their eye on Mayfield or Allen and wanted to get ahead of Denver.
At 3 at least 2 of those 4 will be on the board.
Webb - if they feel great about him as a prospect i.e. => the 2018 draft-able prospects, then great....feel free to trade him for a haul. For example: to Buffalo for 12, 16, both their 2s and Nathan Peterman (I'd want two bites at the QB of the future apple, but more likely, Peterman is a long time # 2).
If not Webb, the they likely have 3 QBs to choose from of the 4 top guys.
With Eli nearly done, with next years QBs class being lousy, with no sense of when we will be in this situation again (sitting nearly atop the draft with multiple options), they do not have the luxury of getting cute.
Webb - if they feel great about him as a prospect i.e. => the 2018 draft-able prospects, then great....feel free to trade him for a haul. For example: to Buffalo for 12, 16, both their 2s and Nathan Peterman (I'd want two bites at the QB of the future apple, but more likely, Peterman is a long time # 2).
If not Webb, the they likely have 3 QBs to choose from of the 4 top guys.
With Eli nearly done, with next years QBs class being lousy, with no sense of when we will be in this situation again (sitting nearly atop the draft with multiple options), they do not have the luxury of getting cute.
22 not 16
Not f'd at all IMO. They either like 3 of the QB's or are confident that somebody else does so they can trade back out if their guy is gone.
Like 1999?
But if you have the equivalent of Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell, You arent winning anything
But if you have the equivalent of Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell, You arent winning anything
Tell that to the Vikings, who went to the NFC Championship game with an undrafted free agent at QB with the offensive coordinator who is now our HC.
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that's where i think people are missing the boat on this If Giants new brass loves Webb, why in the hell would they draft another QB when they could take Barkley or trade down and get a shitload of picks, plus another 1st rounder?
If they really like Webb and have conviction on him, there's no possible scenario where they would draft a QB.
I agree. Webb has a lot to do with this. If the Giants evaluation is that he is as good as anyone coming out, then they can focus their draft on a starting RB who could be great or they could trade down and get a load of picks to fill multiple holes. This is an advantage we have if Webb can be the guy. If they don't think Webb is as good, then draft a QB.
I am not a fan of having Webb battle it out with the #2 pick if he is a QB. That is a waste. We'd have two top picks sitting on the bench for two years, and you know only one will get real reps (likely the #2 guy). Its a falicy that we could "develop" two backup QBs. If we pick a QB then I say package Webb in a trade for a pick or something else.
I agree. The thought of Webb and the drafted QB fighting it out is not a reality. Especially with Eli on the team.
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are good prospects. There will be 3 QB's picked in the four picks and maybe four in the first 5 picks. Look at the draft over the last 40 years. Ask yourself how many times has that happened? We have teams doing handstands to try to move up in this draft with the Jets being the latest. Do you think they are moving up to get anything other than a QB???? We have the best RB prospect perhaps ever...are teams moving up to get him? Answer is no. These QB prospects are VERY, VERY good prospects! We need to take the one we like!
Like 1999?
Prospects bust, QBs bust. It doesn't mean you don't take them. Also, that class wasn't nearly as bad as you're alluding to. McNabb was a very good QB, getting a player of his caliber at 2 wouldn't be the worst. Culpepper was promising young QB who had his knee torn apart and wasn't the same.
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You can have all the generational talent in the world in the absolute prime of their careers at WR & RB
But if you have the equivalent of Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell, You arent winning anything
Tell that to the Vikings, who went to the NFC Championship game with an undrafted free agent at QB with the offensive coordinator who is now our HC.
So? That is the exception not the rule.
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You can have all the generational talent in the world in the absolute prime of their careers at WR & RB
But if you have the equivalent of Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell, You arent winning anything
Tell that to the Vikings, who went to the NFC Championship game with an undrafted free agent at QB with the offensive coordinator who is now our HC.
And then were quickly exposed as having shot their load.
One-off example that only proves the Vikes went a bridge too far with an average QB...
I know you all Remember Herschel Walker???? Minnesota should get credit for making that Cowboys team so good. If someone is going to offer a king's ransom, you got to take it. I still think you win with a great QB and line play ......... we could rebuild the interior of our line, find a RT, another linebacker or pass rusher, and still get a RB who will contribute. How many great players slip to the top of round 2? A lot.
If Cleveland takes a QB we still control the draft....we are in great position and this is exciting. Plus you know there will be more unpredictability....somebody will do something and we will say WTF...didn't see that coming THIS IS FUN!
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You can have all the generational talent in the world in the absolute prime of their careers at WR & RB
But if you have the equivalent of Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell, You arent winning anything
Tell that to the Vikings, who went to the NFC Championship game with an undrafted free agent at QB with the offensive coordinator who is now our HC.
Do you think its reasonable to expect high end success w/ UDFA or journeyman QBs? Keenum is an exception.
I think people misunderstood my point. Webb is a worlds better prospect than Keenum, and Keenum has had NFL success. That was my point
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I've been leading the call for drafting a QB for quite some time... but this is the vibe coming out of the Giants... and I don't think it is just Dottino blowing smoke...
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Jets' move to No. 3 opens more trade options & hikes asking price for #Giants. If price not met, take Barkley; if he's gone, take Nelson or Chubb. (Drop mic) 🏈🏈🏈🏈
Are the Giants telegraphing again? I had a whole post on this - Giants Not Telegraphing Moves Anymore- BBI Act Accordingly. I linked it.
To use your own logic, tbe Giants "have " to have 1 QB above others that they want.
If thats the case, they cannot telegraph because they dont control that destiny. Cleveland does. The Giants must be cloak & dagger or risk having a trade there.
My post - ( New Window )
How many times are you going to reference your posts? We saw them. They were hard to miss because you posted like 5 threads a day. Shuttuo.
I know you all Remember Herschel Walker???? Minnesota should get credit for making that Cowboys team so good. If someone is going to offer a king's ransom, you got to take it. I still think you win with a great QB and line play ......... we could rebuild the interior of our line, find a RT, another linebacker or pass rusher, and still get a RB who will contribute. How many great players slip to the top of round 2? A lot.
If Cleveland takes a QB we still control the draft....we are in great position and this is exciting. Plus you know there will be more unpredictability....somebody will do something and we will say WTF...didn't see that coming THIS IS FUN!
When the Vikings traded for Walker they already had their
franchise QB, Troy Aikman. I don't think when Franchise
QB is available, you trade down.
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He won't kill your chances but he's not going to guarantee that you're a playoff contender year in and year out unless you stack the deck for him.
I think people misunderstood my point. Webb is a worlds better prospect than Keenum, and Keenum has had NFL success. That was my point
Prospect Keenum wasn't a great prospect. There's a list a mile long of shitty NFL QBs that were better prospects than Keenum too. It's a flawed perspective.
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he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
Bush was 200 pounds and was not the every down back in college that Barkley was. Not a fair comparison.
Yes Bush is a fair comp for Barkley. True Barkley is a lot heavier but the combine numbers they posted are similar, including bench presses. And in style they are almost identical. With Barkley you are getting a back who wins with agility and speed. Not a banger like Zeke. I do like Barkley. I love him. But he is NOT CAN'T MISS. If you need a QB you take the great QB prospect.. full stop.
This is clearly one of the best QB classes in years. There is clearly a massive QB market on these guys, The overwhelming likelihood is that 4 QBs go top 10 and probably top 5.
Unless you think our scouts are some how the leagues best scouts and can intuit that all 4 will not be very good, which we have a terrible recent history of .
The question is not whether or not our scouts like 1 of these guys.
The question is whether or not you think we Need a QB or not.
if the answer is yes. Then you draft a QB and you can decide which one you like best.
The reason this is the question is because if you are wrong. And you need a QB. very shortly you will find yourself not being able to have the luxury to ask the question of do my scouts like this QB and you will have to draft or pay or trade for whoever happens to become available.
You will find yourself desperate to trade anything to move up to get whoever is there. Giving up multiple 1s.
You will find yourself paying 80+ mil to the Kirk Cousins guaranteed if they happen to be available.
You will find yourself needing to trade for backups and hoping they can do it.
Right now, the Giants have the rare luxury of deciding which QB they like. They have a choice.
If we are wrong about not needing one. They will be wishing for the opportunity to get whoever happens to be available.
Don't get cute. Get the QB. RBs grow on trees. I'm not even sure Barkley is the best RB in this class. I might rather have Guice.
A systemic strategy to always trade down in the draft is estimated to be worth 1.5 extra wins per season! Thats even when you dont have what is obviously an incredible bidding war primed up.
Blair Thomas says hi. Don't think anything but a QB was envisioned with their trade up.
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You can have all the generational talent in the world in the absolute prime of their careers at WR & RB
But if you have the equivalent of Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell, You arent winning anything
Tell that to the Vikings, who went to the NFC Championship game with an undrafted free agent at QB with the offensive coordinator who is now our HC.
And Latavius Murray/McKinnon at RB. Cuts both ways.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Case Keemun, even guys like Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco have been quarterbacks for winning teams and were not top 10 drafts picks. Thats not an exception to the rule, thats damn near half the starting quarterbacks in the league. If we dont like one of the 4 guys at the top of the draft you dont just settle to take one.
Take the best guy available whether its Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or one of the QBs. For all we know Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph, or Kyle Lauletta could be better than the QB we would take at 2.
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I love Barkley. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard "there is no way this guy can be a bust" and then he ends up being a bust.
True. To me, without saying he "definitely" won't be a bust (which he won't...lol) Barkley is the safest, cleanest, elite level prospect in the draft.
But he not be the best NFL RB. Several commentators on NFLN are touting Sony Michel as a better pro prospect. Better vision and better ability to run between the Tackles.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Case Keemun, even guys like Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco have been quarterbacks for winning teams and were not top 10 drafts picks. Thats not an exception to the rule, thats damn near half the starting quarterbacks in the league. If we dont like one of the 4 guys at the top of the draft you dont just settle to take one.
Take the best guy available whether its Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or one of the QBs. For all we know Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph, or Kyle Lauletta could be better than the QB we would take at 2.
Using Tom Brady is a bit misleading.
Dak Prescott sure didn't look like a franchise guy last year. That book is yet to be written
Case Keenum is a sixth-year veteran. 2017 was the first moment he's ever looked competent enough to stick to one team, and he had a meltdown game in a pretty inopportune time of the season.
And I think you want to aim a bit higher than Andy Dalton or even Flacco for your next QB.
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Wrong. You can find your quarterback at the bottom of the first round, or on day 2 or 3 of the draft just like any other position.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Case Keemun, even guys like Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco have been quarterbacks for winning teams and were not top 10 drafts picks. Thats not an exception to the rule, thats damn near half the starting quarterbacks in the league. If we dont like one of the 4 guys at the top of the draft you dont just settle to take one.
Take the best guy available whether its Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or one of the QBs. For all we know Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph, or Kyle Lauletta could be better than the QB we would take at 2.
Using Tom Brady is a bit misleading.
Dak Prescott sure didn't look like a franchise guy last year. That book is yet to be written
Case Keenum is a sixth-year veteran. 2017 was the first moment he's ever looked competent enough to stick to one team, and he had a meltdown game in a pretty inopportune time of the season.
And I think you want to aim a bit higher than Andy Dalton or even Flacco for your next QB.
Agreed. And cant you just say that there are great DEs and DBs that are from later rounds?
We have the opportunity to fill the hardest position to fill in sports but because theres a few examples of being able to do it later in the draft we now shouldnt?
Im good with whatever DG decides but the logic above makes no sense.
...is the best draft news since the Giants won their last game and managed to stay at #2!
This is a very exciting development which can break in at least one of three major directions... all of them good!
Thank you Gang Green!!!
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because of this Jets move, people will underestimate the fact that Barkley is still far and away not only the best athlete by a wide margin in this draft but also the best prospect/player in the draft with the least likelihood of becoming a bust. That hasn't changed.
Your opinion.
Not just me.
1) This QB class is generally overrated
2) The Giants hanging on to Eli tells me they're not going QB. He would have demanded to be shipped out if we were seriously going in another direction.
1) This QB class is generally overrated
2) The Giants hanging on to Eli tells me they're not going QB. He would have demanded to be shipped out if we were seriously going in another direction.
1) says you
2) Eli has a huge cap hit for 2018 and him being here gives us flexibility on not only who to draft but not rushing the player into action if its a QB.
...forced to go QB at #1 and then trading up with us for Barkley at # 2.
We then go (hopefully) Nelson at 4 and pocket a couple more premium picks!
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
Darnaud and Rosen will be no 1 and 2
They have their #1 next year. Plus some 3's.
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In comment 13871317 twostepgiants said:
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You can have all the generational talent in the world in the absolute prime of their careers at WR & RB
But if you have the equivalent of Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell, You arent winning anything
Tell that to the Vikings, who went to the NFC Championship game with an undrafted free agent at QB with the offensive coordinator who is now our HC.
And Latavius Murray/McKinnon at RB. Cuts both ways.
The bottom line is, do your homework and get a guy whose talent dictates his draft position and youll be much better off in the long run.
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he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes theyre different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
Lol I was thinking the same.
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Wrong. You can find your quarterback at the bottom of the first round, or on day 2 or 3 of the draft just like any other position.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Case Keemun, even guys like Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco have been quarterbacks for winning teams and were not top 10 drafts picks. Thats not an exception to the rule, thats damn near half the starting quarterbacks in the league. If we dont like one of the 4 guys at the top of the draft you dont just settle to take one.
Take the best guy available whether its Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or one of the QBs. For all we know Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph, or Kyle Lauletta could be better than the QB we would take at 2.
Using Tom Brady is a bit misleading.
Dak Prescott sure didn't look like a franchise guy last year. That book is yet to be written
Case Keenum is a sixth-year veteran. 2017 was the first moment he's ever looked competent enough to stick to one team, and he had a meltdown game in a pretty inopportune time of the season.
And I think you want to aim a bit higher than Andy Dalton or even Flacco for your next QB.
Dak looks to be a good enough qb to win with. Is he a top 10 QB in the league? Probably not, but hes good enough to field a competitive team with and if you have the right guys around him can probably be the QB on a contender. As for Flacco, hes had one losing season in his career and won a Super Bowl. Andy Dalton is a 3 time Pro Bowler and has played in the post season 4 times. Both have had as much, if not more success than guys like Matt Stafford, Alex Smith, Sam Bradford, etc. that were taken at the top of the draft.
The point is, just because a quarterback isnt taken in the top 10 doesnt mean youre going to get Kent Graham/Danny Kanell level QB play. You can find good quarterbacks later in the draft just like at any other position, so just take the best player available.
I don't know about "easily."
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
Thats exactly the point. You can find good players at every position, including QB, every where in the draft so just take the best player available. Some of you are acting like this is the only opportunity that we will ever have to find our next quarterback, and that is not the case as evidenced by where all of the named players were picked.
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? Id say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Lets not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Elis replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
Also, people go 3rd round so he must not be good. You just cant say that.
Dont forget, the plan for the team was *always* to play Eli two years and slide Webb in as a replacement. Just sucking and picking two, doesnt necessarily change that. Again, different management though. But that doesnt alter the logic.
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? Id say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Lets not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Elis replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
You take the chance on landing Carson Wentz rather than getting a RB like Barkley who can easily bust out or get hurt. Barkley is not a sure thing. Personally I think Derrius Guice might be better. RBs are a dime a dozen.
Bill L : 5:36 pm : link : reply
Now it was the previous guys so take it for what isnt worth.
Which doesn't mean much.....a player picked after the second round by them?
Also, people go 3rd round so he must not be good. You just cant say that.
No......but the fact that they picked him, and then didn't display him, were they hiding something?
Dont forget, the plan for the team was *always* to play Eli two years and slide Webb in as a replacement. Just sucking and picking two, doesnt necessarily change that. Again, different management though. But that doesnt alter the logic.
How in the world do you have a plan for a qb to take over when you have no idea of what he is capable of?
With the firing of Mac and Reese, this team had the choice of a new plan.....which doesn't seem to be much different from plan of the last 6 years....that we are only one or two players away.....I can't see us not going QB with the second pick, to hedge the gamble that Gettleman is making....
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was that Webb was a 3rd round pick and some had him rated even higher than that. Big difference between Webb and a guy like Keenum.
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
"Davis Webb's got a live arm. He drops it in the bucket. Moves well enough, quick release, big arm. He's one of the five quarterbacks where you can make a case in this draft that they can start a game in the NFL and be a quarterback." -- Mike Mayock
During the fall, some team sources told WalterFootball.com that there were some area scouts for the west coast who had a higher grade on Davis Webb than they had given to Jared Goff a year earlier. While Goff was the No. 1-overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, there were teams that had him graded much later and didn't like him as a prospect. Still, it was nice acclaim for Webb to be graded higher than Goff and validated Webb status as am NFL prospect.
Davis Webb: Another QB Enters the Round 1 Conversation "Six weeks before the draft, Webb is a legitimate second-round candidate, and its feasible that, come the last weekend in April, he will be billed as someones quarterback of the future." SportsIllustrated
Senior Bowl executive director Phil Savage reports that "[t]he [Cal QB] Davis Webb talk is legit as far as [the] first round."
Savage relays that he has "had several NFL people tell [him] that [Webb] is the guy they would want to coach." We have heard a consistent bubbling of rumor around the possibility of Webb landing in the first round as the pre-draft process hits its stretch run. At the end of March, Pete Prisco of CBS Sports likewise heard that steam was picking up toward a Day 1 selection. Webb, himself, has said that teams in the double-digits have told him he is a first-round talent. If he isn't swept off the board by the end of Round 1, he will almost certainly find an NFL home early in Round 2.
An NFL scout says Cal QB Davis Webb "has Dak-like intangibles."
Webb's stock is surging at the right time. NFL Network's Ian Rapoport "wouldn't be surprised to see a team trade back into round 1" for Webb, a sentiment we've read on multiple occasions over the past 10 days. Draft Analyst's Tony Pauline reported Tuesday that if the Browns don't take UNC's Mitchell Trubisky in Round 1, Webb is "likely to be the target" with the No. 33 selection.
One NFL personnel executive believes that Clemson QB Deshaun Watson and Cal QB Davis Webb will be the only quarterbacks selected on Day 1 of the draft.
Well that would be a weird combo. Color us surprised if UNC QB Mitchell Trubisky is still available at the end of the first round. "I am sticking to my Webb guns," the executive insisted. "He's the second-best QB in this class. I have read the Trubisky and Mahomes buzz. Not sure if I believe it." This came about from an informal poll of five insiders by NFL Media's Daniel Jeremiah to gauge just how many quarterbacks might be taken in Round 1. The most optimistic executive forwarded the possibility of four gunslingers going off the board by the end of April 27. Three is probably the safest bet.
The MMQB's Albert Breer mentioned Cal's Davis Webb as one of five QBs who has a chance of being selected in the first round.
We would be more than stunned if this happens. Webb is not close to being ready for the NFL. He was arguably the best quarterback at the Senior Bowl... but the competition was less than ideal. Webb has a big arm, but has only played out of the Air Raid system, a system with a playbook of five to seven concepts that passers master (see Jared Goff). Even if it is not a first round selection, Webb seems destined for a second day pick.
Giving up three 2nds to take a RB is just stupid. But it is the Jets and if Darnold and Rosen are gone, its possible.
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do that exercise for every position in the NFL. Let me know how that goes.
Thats exactly the point. You can find good players at every position, including QB, every where in the draft so just take the best player available. Some of you are acting like this is the only opportunity that we will ever have to find our next quarterback, and that is not the case as evidenced by where all of the named players were picked.
And the point you are missing is that the further away from a top pick you get he harder it is to find a starting QB, let alone a great one. If thats the case why wouldnt you maximize your ability to get a QB which happens to be the hardest and most expensive to fill?
Several posters showed the bust rate of QBs per round, it gets exponentially worse the further down you go.
Browns - Allen
Giants - Barkley
Jets - Rosen/Darnold
If Darnold is gone, maybe that happens.
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if jets take barkley
Giving up three 2nds to take a RB is just stupid. But it is the Jets and if Darnold and Rosen are gone, its possible.
The Jets made the move because they'd be happy with either Darnold, Rosen or Allen.
If they didn't think this way they would have never made the move.
This is pretty clear to me.
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In comment 13871289 ryanmkeane said:
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because of this Jets move, people will underestimate the fact that Barkley is still far and away not only the best athlete by a wide margin in this draft but also the best prospect/player in the draft with the least likelihood of becoming a bust. That hasn't changed.
Your opinion.
Not just me.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
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In comment 13871834 Mr. Nickels said:
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if jets take barkley
Giving up three 2nds to take a RB is just stupid. But it is the Jets and if Darnold and Rosen are gone, its possible.
The Jets made the move because they'd be happy with either Darnold, Rosen or Allen.
If they didn't think this way they would have never made the move.
This is pretty clear to me.
IMO it says they are fine with Darnold, Rosen, Allen OR Mayfield. You don't know how their board stacks up and I could easily see Rosen or Allen as #4 on some boards.
Mayfield showed well at the combine and granted I've heard the criticism that he was trying to throw hard but Mayfield throwing at higher velocity than Rosen isn't insignificant.
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If the Giants pass up 4-5 premium picks for a running back Ill lose my mind. The Giants can get a productive back in round 3.
yes!
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
just remember how Dallas looked WITH zeke vs WITHOUT him
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here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
We could have a situation like in 2004, where the Chargers had Rivers as the QB that they wanted, but they knew Eli as the #1 QB on most people's draft boards. I remember San Diego Head Coach Marty Schottenheimer being asked who was going to be the first pick in the draft and his answer was, "Eli Manning. I can't tell you for sure who will be making the pick, but the first pick will be Eli" (or words to that effect). If the Browns see Rosen as the clear cut #1 overall, but they prefer a different QB (for whatever reason, same as the Chargers preferring Rivers despite Eli being the clear cut #1 overall), they could feel safe trading down to the #3 spot with confidence they will still get their man (especially if it's Mayfield).
To avoid this, it is extremely important for the Giants to show interest in all the QBs and in Barkley as well (just to show they aren't committed to a QB). The Browns need to be in the dark about who the Giants may select in order to keep them from trading out of the #1 spot (with either the Jets, Broncos, or Bills). They have to fear that the Giants will take the QB which they covet the most.
I think it's safe to deduce that short of an overwhelming trade offer the Giants aren't looking to move backwards. I'd expect the NFL strongly got that message as well.
We could have a situation like in 2004, where the Chargers had Rivers as the QB that they wanted, but they knew Eli as the #1 QB on most people's draft boards. I remember San Diego Head Coach Marty Schottenheimer being asked who was going to be the first pick in the draft and his answer was, "Eli Manning. I can't tell you for sure who will be making the pick, but the first pick will be Eli" (or words to that effect). If the Browns see Rosen as the clear cut #1 overall, but they prefer a different QB (for whatever reason, same as the Chargers preferring Rivers despite Eli being the clear cut #1 overall), they could feel safe trading down to the #3 spot with confidence they will still get their man (especially if it's Mayfield).
To avoid this, it is extremely important for the Giants to show interest in all the QBs and in Barkley as well (just to show they aren't committed to a QB). The Browns need to be in the dark about who the Giants may select in order to keep them from trading out of the #1 spot (with either the Jets, Broncos, or Bills). They have to fear that the Giants will take the QB which they covet the most.
We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
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They will draft one of these three. If I'm the Giants, I take either Darnold or Allen. I'm not interested in Mayfield, and the more film I see of Barkley, the more convinced I am that he is not Emmitt Smith, and to be taken 2nd overall, he better be that good. Should the Giants' consider trading their 2nd overall for a basket of ones and twos? Possibly. My problem is that I'm not sure what to make of Webb. He's tall, has good vision, has a nice touch, and is willing to work hard, but he strikes me as somewhat frail and he's not very mobile.
just remember how Dallas looked WITH zeke vs WITHOUT him
exactly, what the heck do you see that leads you to believe he ISNT smith. im not sayng he is a HoF before he plays a down, but as a prospect he is as good as peterson. the guy doesnt have a visible flaw and off the field he is well spoken with no issues. he is clean prospect with a tremendous skillset. the kid is zeke but faster, i mean....
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In comment 13871969 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesnt buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
If we're going by history, then the historical evidence is firmly against Davis Webb even playing in a regular season game much less being any good.
Ryan Nassib was a steal who could start in the NFL. Three years and two teams later he's still nothing.
Rhett Bomar, I'll just leave that there.
Andre Woodson didn't even make it out of training camp.
All of them were scouted and drafted by the same people.
We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
Contrast this to the difference a few years back with and without Romo. The difference there was much more pronounced.
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In comment 13872009 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
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In comment 13871969 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesnt buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
If we're going by history, then the historical evidence is firmly against Davis Webb even playing in a regular season game much less being any good.
Ryan Nassib was a steal who could start in the NFL. Three years and two teams later he's still nothing.
Rhett Bomar, I'll just leave that there.
Andre Woodson didn't even make it out of training camp.
All of them were scouted and drafted by the same people.
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In comment 13871264 bluepepper said:
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he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes theyre different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
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In comment 13872020 Bill L said:
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In comment 13872009 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
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In comment 13871969 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesnt buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
If we're going by history, then the historical evidence is firmly against Davis Webb even playing in a regular season game much less being any good.
Ryan Nassib was a steal who could start in the NFL. Three years and two teams later he's still nothing.
Rhett Bomar, I'll just leave that there.
Andre Woodson didn't even make it out of training camp.
All of them were scouted and drafted by the same people.
well, if thats your criteria, then realize it to the same scouts that you want to give the okay on these qbs
If it were just the Giants scouts having good things to say about the QBs at the top of this draft, that would be relevant. It's not.
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? Id say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Lets not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Elis replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
Mike it might be a 50% chance of success if we go QB
But if we don't there will be a 100% certainty we will be unsuccessful.
That's not true, Stan in LA has doubts abou...
...oh. Right.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes theyre different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
You are flat out wrong. The worry about Barkley according to scouts is that he is not the interior runner you expect for his size and that he bounces too many runs to the outside. Sound familiar? That is the problem with a lot of failed backs in the NFL. I'm not saying Barkley will fail, but he surely isn't a no doubt generational talent. Believe me, if the Giants get him and he leaves a string of negative plays on the field and you see him unable to beat teams on the outside he is going to look very average. I think he will be good but in this situation you draft a QB. If we get Rosen and both he and Barkley become stars, around the time Barkley starts to flame out Rosen will be hitting the middle of his prime. So it goes with RBs vs QBs.
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? Id say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Lets not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Elis replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
QB is a need. Eli wont play forever.
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We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
But they could trade the pick to a team that does covet Rosen if they are confident the could get their QB with the #3 overall (if they were to trade down with the Jets) or the #4 overall. They only need to have two QBs other than Rosen on their wish list for them to feel confident in trading down. Unless they believe there is a chance that neither the Jets or Giants would select Rosen. Like I said, in 2004 the Chargers were able to demand the #4 overall pick, a third round pick, and future 1st and 5th round picks of the Giants and still come away with the QB of their choice. Gettleman needs to avoid a repeat of that, but he also needs to avoid missing out on the QB of his choice, if he prefers one clearly above the rest.
This logic would be applicable if we were dealing with the old Browns management who ran the team like they were playing Madden. Dorsey is an old school football guy who understands the importance of having your franchise QB in place.I don't see the Browns trading away their #1 for anything less than all of a teams' draft picks & even then, it wouldn't be a slam dunk. They have their #4 & 2 early #2's,why would they move? It's the same reason another old school football guy,weened under Ernie Acorsi,Dave Gettleman, takes a QB w/#2 Al McGuire once said "Paralysis by over analysis" is a dangerous thing.The NFL draft allows pundits & draftniks to do this for 4 long months when sometimes the most logical answer is also the easiest one!
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In comment 13871364 ryanmkeane said:
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was that Webb was a 3rd round pick and some had him rated even higher than that. Big difference between Webb and a guy like Keenum.
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
"Davis Webb's got a live arm. He drops it in the bucket. Moves well enough, quick release, big arm. He's one of the five quarterbacks where you can make a case in this draft that they can start a game in the NFL and be a quarterback." -- Mike Mayock
During the fall, some team sources told WalterFootball.com that there were some area scouts for the west coast who had a higher grade on Davis Webb than they had given to Jared Goff a year earlier. While Goff was the No. 1-overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, there were teams that had him graded much later and didn't like him as a prospect. Still, it was nice acclaim for Webb to be graded higher than Goff and validated Webb status as am NFL prospect.
Davis Webb: Another QB Enters the Round 1 Conversation "Six weeks before the draft, Webb is a legitimate second-round candidate, and its feasible that, come the last weekend in April, he will be billed as someones quarterback of the future." SportsIllustrated
Senior Bowl executive director Phil Savage reports that "[t]he [Cal QB] Davis Webb talk is legit as far as [the] first round."
Savage relays that he has "had several NFL people tell [him] that [Webb] is the guy they would want to coach." We have heard a consistent bubbling of rumor around the possibility of Webb landing in the first round as the pre-draft process hits its stretch run. At the end of March, Pete Prisco of CBS Sports likewise heard that steam was picking up toward a Day 1 selection. Webb, himself, has said that teams in the double-digits have told him he is a first-round talent. If he isn't swept off the board by the end of Round 1, he will almost certainly find an NFL home early in Round 2.
An NFL scout says Cal QB Davis Webb "has Dak-like intangibles."
Webb's stock is surging at the right time. NFL Network's Ian Rapoport "wouldn't be surprised to see a team trade back into round 1" for Webb, a sentiment we've read on multiple occasions over the past 10 days. Draft Analyst's Tony Pauline reported Tuesday that if the Browns don't take UNC's Mitchell Trubisky in Round 1, Webb is "likely to be the target" with the No. 33 selection.
One NFL personnel executive believes that Clemson QB Deshaun Watson and Cal QB Davis Webb will be the only quarterbacks selected on Day 1 of the draft.
Well that would be a weird combo. Color us surprised if UNC QB Mitchell Trubisky is still available at the end of the first round. "I am sticking to my Webb guns," the executive insisted. "He's the second-best QB in this class. I have read the Trubisky and Mahomes buzz. Not sure if I believe it." This came about from an informal poll of five insiders by NFL Media's Daniel Jeremiah to gauge just how many quarterbacks might be taken in Round 1. The most optimistic executive forwarded the possibility of four gunslingers going off the board by the end of April 27. Three is probably the safest bet.
The MMQB's Albert Breer mentioned Cal's Davis Webb as one of five QBs who has a chance of being selected in the first round.
We would be more than stunned if this happens. Webb is not close to being ready for the NFL. He was arguably the best quarterback at the Senior Bowl... but the competition was less than ideal. Webb has a big arm, but has only played out of the Air Raid system, a system with a playbook of five to seven concepts that passers master (see Jared Goff). Even if it is not a first round selection, Webb seems destined for a second day pick.
Great job. You posted journalists repeating stuff they were told weeks before the draft about a guy "in the conversation" for being in the first round. However, every scout and GM they talked to worked for a team that passed on him in the first round. Then every one of them passed in him again in the second round. Then many of the passed on him again in the 3rd round...
So again, which non-journalist (Mayock didn't put a round on him in what you posted) had Webb evaluated as a first round pick at the time of the draft?
Hopefully Cleveland wants Darnold or Allen and would be worried that either the Giants or another team the Giants trade with after jets take Rosen, would grab the QB they want.
I'm also hoping that Cleveland decides not to get cute since they fucked things up so badly the last few years.
The only view any of us have about what real NFL scouts and GMS believe a guy's potential is is when they are drafted. Webb is a 3rd round pick and the fifth QB selected in that draft. It's silly to keep pretending that we probably got a first round talent in the third round without actual evidence of what he can do at the NFL level. All of us would love for the guy to be a stud player and become our QB of the future. You just can't make personnel decisions based on hope.
2. Denver takes a QB
3. Jets take a QB
4. Browns take Chubb
5. Giants take Barkley
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know its going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets dont leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think theres a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as hes having trouble containing his excitement.
At #5 you still get one of Rosen, Darnold, Barkley, Nelson, Fitzpatrick or Chubb. If they like Mayfield or Allen as a franchise QB, it is even better. At #12 they stockpile more picks, but the premiere talent in the draft is off the board.
Now if they have a conviction on someone like Jackson, Laulette or Rudolph, then trading with Buffalo is an option as it allows them to still get their QB and more picks. Need to trust Shula and Shurmur to know not only who is better, but how significant the delta is between all of these guys.
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place youre going to find a replacement for Eli, if we dont take one of these guys were doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know its going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets dont leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think theres a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as hes having trouble containing his excitement.
I see any possibility of the Browns trading their 1st pick as slim to none. But I agree I think the Jets are hot after Rosen or Mayfield or Allen. Darnold seems like a Browns pick at 1.
2. Denver takes a QB
3. Jets take a QB
4. Browns take Chubb
5. Giants take Barkley
Well I don't know about the Giants/Denver thing at 2 but according to some Browns forums/fan sites there seems to be interest from both the team and fans in Chubb at 4, and going RB at the top of the 2nd Rd.
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In comment 13871734 Mike in NJ said:
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place youre going to find a replacement for Eli, if we dont take one of these guys were doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
This site is so confusing. I keep reading that you dont have to take a QB in the first round because they can be found later on. But then at the same time I keep reading that Webb must suck because he was drafted in the 3rd round and if he was any good, hed have been a 1st round pick.
Ken O'Brian
Mark Sanchez
Tim Tebo
4 Jets....thought it was funny
I think it's safe to deduce that short of an overwhelming trade offer the Giants aren't looking to move backwards. I'd expect the NFL strongly got that message as well.
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
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I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
It sure seems that way but it's possible they talked with the Giants and DG wasn't interested in dropping out of the top 5. Maybe they've used the move up as a stepping stone to 2 if they feel they'll get jumped by Denver for the guy they really like.
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In comment 13872398 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
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I doubt the Jets have 3 qbs they rate equally, one or at most two they take a shine too, so they probably had to settle. The balls in our court, either we're locked in on qb or Barkley or we trade down only for a ton of picks. It's like Tennessee and Mariota.
They must or otherwise why give up so much to move to 3 BEFORE they see how the first two picks play out? There is a 99% chances that Cleveland takes a QB at 1. I think the Giants will either take a QB or trade down with a team that wants to get a QB. The Jets wouldn't have made this trade if they weren't comfortable with the top 3 QB's in the draft.
It sure seems that way but it's possible they talked with the Giants and DG wasn't interested in dropping out of the top 5. Maybe they've used the move up as a stepping stone to 2 if they feel they'll get jumped by Denver for the guy they really like.
I agree, I think that DG wants to come out of the first round with one out of Darnold, Rosen, Barkley, Chubb, Allen.
The only view any of us have about what real NFL scouts and GMS believe a guy's potential is is when they are drafted. Webb is a 3rd round pick and the fifth QB selected in that draft. It's silly to keep pretending that we probably got a first round talent in the third round without actual evidence of what he can do at the NFL level. All of us would love for the guy to be a stud player and become our QB of the future. You just can't make personnel decisions based on hope.
Not feeling called out.
But to clarify....I never (nor do I have the qualifications to say something like that) said he was a first-round talent. Some people thought he could be taken there. At least part of the reason he was not was because he was a developmental guy. First rounders are supposed to play their first year or second year max. They were afraid because he (1) hadn't played a lot under center and (2) Goff had a really rough first year coming out of the Cal offense and that hurt Webb. I have no idea if he is a "first round" talent, whatever that means. There are a lot of successful QBs in the NFL who were not first rounders. The fact that he wasn't really has no bearing on anything at this point.
The question is what is he now and what do the Giants think of him. Obviously that will be answered in part by what they do in the draft. I have no idea, but here are the thoughts from some guys that play against him on a daily basis, when asked about taking a QB at #2>>
Dont draft him. Dont do it. Davis is gonna be really good in the league when its his time, I promise you. Landon Collins
Asked if he thinks the Giants need to draft a quarterback with the second pick, Rodgers-Cromartie told The Post: Nah, nah. I think hes the guy that has the arm, and hes studied under Eli, so I think he still has an opportunity to be that guy. And forget about Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen. Yes, sir. Ive seen him drop it in the bucket, Rodgers-Cromartie said, Ive seen the things that hes done.
Of course, they are teammates and have their biases and could all be BS.
Where we might differ, is I don't believe that the Giants are necessarily going to take a QB at #2 simply because Webb was a third-round draft choice. The team has had him there for a year now. They know (even though the GM and coach weren't there last year) more about him than they do about anyone in the draft. They may view one of these QBs as a generational talent - though I doubt they see 2 or 3 of these guys that way. Personally, I am OK with the Giants (1) taking a QB at #2, (2) taking Barkley at #2 or (3) trading down.
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I can definitely see him dropping to 3rd with the Jets if he's leaning away from a QB. Then possibly even back to 5 with Denver if they want one with DG getting one of Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or Nelson.
Either way he wants one of the top tier talent guys and I don't see him dropping out of the top 5.
If he wants a QB though, I see him staying at 2 unless he really only likes one and the Browns take that guy. Then I can definitely see a trade back, but again not past 5.
I can definitely see him dropping to 3rd with the Jets if he's leaning away from a QB. Then possibly even back to 5 with Denver if they want one with DG getting one of Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or Nelson.
Either way he wants one of the top tier talent guys and I don't see him dropping out of the top 5.
If he wants a QB though, I see him staying at 2 unless he really only likes one and the Browns take that guy. Then I can definitely see a trade back, but again not past 5.
If he is decided on a QB then he won't move. If you have a conviction on a QB then you don't risk losing him by being too cute and moving down. I personally hope that they stand pat and draft either Rosen or Darnold whichever Cleveland doesn't take. The farthest I would move down is with Denver that way I would still have a shot at either Allen, Mayfield, or Nelson.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
Round 2: 40th overall
Round 3: 71st overall
Round 3: 99th overall (compensatory)
Round 4: 106th overall
Round 4: 109th overall (via 49ers)
Round 5: 142nd overall
Round 5: 163rd overall (via Falcons)
Round 6: 182nd overall
Round 7: 225th overall
What would you take from them to drop to 5? You'd probably need something from next year as well.
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Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
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Round 1: 5th overall
Round 2: 40th overall
Round 3: 71st overall
Round 3: 99th overall (compensatory)
Round 4: 106th overall
Round 4: 109th overall (via 49ers)
Round 5: 142nd overall
Round 5: 163rd overall (via Falcons)
Round 6: 182nd overall
Round 7: 225th overall
What would you take from them to drop to 5? You'd probably need something from next year as well.
Any trade down for the Giants must include a 2019 1st. To go from 2 to 5 it would require Denver's 5th overall pick, 2nd round pick, 3rd, plus a 2019 1st and 2nd. I would throw in Flowers or Apple too if they wanted.
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The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes theyre different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
You are flat out wrong. The worry about Barkley according to scouts is that he is not the interior runner you expect for his size and that he bounces too many runs to the outside. Sound familiar? That is the problem with a lot of failed backs in the NFL. I'm not saying Barkley will fail, but he surely isn't a no doubt generational talent. Believe me, if the Giants get him and he leaves a string of negative plays on the field and you see him unable to beat teams on the outside he is going to look very average. I think he will be good but in this situation you draft a QB. If we get Rosen and both he and Barkley become stars, around the time Barkley starts to flame out Rosen will be hitting the middle of his prime. So it goes with RBs vs QBs.
That is the opinion of a couple of posters here and maybe some not so very highly thought of internet draftniks. It is not the opinion of respected people in the industry. You are incredibly misinformed. The tape does not support your assertion. Barkley absolutely has the power to run between the tackles and it's on tape.
Anonymous scout on Saquon Barkley: Saquon Barkley is better than Zeke, hes faster than Zeke and has more twitch, the scout said, via Yahoo! Sports. Saquon Barkley is a different guy with an extra gear. Hell never get caught from behind. Zeke doesnt get caught often, but he can.
Link: https://sportsnaut.com/2017/09/anonymous-nfl-scout-saquon-barkley-better-ezekiel-elliott/
Here is a list of quotes from Daniel Jeremiah...go to link and watch Jeremiah's video on him as well:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000848017/article/ask-5-whats-best-nfl-comp-for-penn-states-saquon-barkley
He's widely regarded as the top runner in the country and has a unique combination of size, speed and versatility. I reached out to five NFL executives and asked them for a player comparison for Barkley. Here are their answers:
Executive 1: David Johnson
"My first thought -- Superman. Since I can't use him, I'll say David Johnson. Both of these guys are such complete, 3-down backs. Barkley's lower-body strength and explosiveness are pretty tough to match, though."
Executive 2: Kareem Hunt
"He's a better version of Kareem Hunt. Better body frame, better feet and hips, quicker, more explosive, more elusive, better hands and he's faster."
Executive 3: Corey Dillon
"I haven't fully studied him but I see some similarities to Corey Dillon. Big, fast and physical."
Executive 4: Joe Mixon
"He's a more explosive Joe Mixon. When he gets the ball in his hand, he can accelerate and separate quickly. Mixon would build speed and stall out. They both are dangerous as runners and receivers, both 3-down backs."
Executive 5: Ezekiel Elliott
"I was at the game a few years ago when Elliott and Barkley shared the same field. As impressive as Elliott was, Barkley was the better player. They have similar skill sets but Barkley is better in every area."
Summary: That's one vote apiece for Dillon, Elliott, Hunt, Johnson and Mixon.
Conclusion: This is an impressive list of names. I compared Barkley to Elliott when I studied the PSU RB this summer for my First Look series. I think he's a more talented prospect than any of the running backs in the 2017 draft class. He has the talent and upside to quickly develop into the best running back at the next level. That's not hyperbole.
Notice the comps...Zeke Elliott runs between the tackles. Corey Dillon was excellent between the tackles. Joe Mixon is a good runner between the tackles. I bolded some statements for emphasis.
More:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2750473-matt-millers-scouting-notebook-in-a-year-of-qbs-saquon-barkley-is-a-unicorn
Barkley is rare. As Moorhead told me, "He's a five-tool guy. He can do it all. He has speed, power, can run through you or hurdle over you. You can put him in the slot. He can return kicks. And he's worked hard to become a great pass protector."
If that all sounds too good to be true, you might think it's just an old coach wanting to help out his former player. But when talking to an NFL general manager for this story, he asked me for the highest grade on my scouting grading scale. "A 9.0," I replied. "Put that by his name."
An assistant NFL coach said at the combine about Saquon I would punch myself in the nuts many, many, many times to be able to draft him.
More: You dont screw up the special ones when you are a talent evaluator. This guy is special. Any concerns you file on him just feels like nitpicking to fill out the report. NFL general manager
Every-down running back with the ability to alter the course of an offense and become a face of the franchise-type player. Barkley has the rare ability to create additional yardage through elusiveness, speed, vision and feel for space in the open field. While he has been tasked with carrying a heavy load at Penn State, their decision to limit his carries somewhat this season could help Barkley headed into his rookie season. Barkley is a buffet runner who thrives with the more plates you give him and he has a chance to become an early All-Pro no matter which team takes him.
Link: http://www.centredaily.com/sports/article201570244.html
Daniel Jeremiah (who has him as the #1 overall prospect, like many others): "The whole 'the running back position is dead,' that's old news. When you look at the last couple years of guys that the college game has produced you're talking about some big time backs, and I think Saquon Barkley is better than all of them. And I'm talking about Todd Gurley, Ezekiel Elliott. This kid is special, he's 230 lbs, and he's got big time top speed, he can make you miss, he can help you in the passing game, you can split him out, the options are really endless with him. And then on top of that, you talk to the folks at Penn State, they tell you he's a wonderful kid with extremely high character, so, I hate the can't miss label, I hate that, but let's go ahead and use it. I don't think you can miss with this kid."
Link: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap3000000909792/Daniel-Jeremiah-Saquon-Barkley-is-a-can-t-miss-prospect
You're trying to say this guy can't run between the tackles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGWWjkwMWn8
Btw, the program record was 390 by a lineman.
You are entirely wrong on him. The question is not should the Giants take him. It's how much in return is it going to take in a trade down for the Giants to not take him.
I await your quotes from scouts and NFL people that question his ability to run between the tackles. You'd be better off not wasting your time, because it's a silly argument. Even with defenses dedicating their entire defensive game plans to swarm Barkley last year, he still ran for nearly 1300 yards at 5.9 ypc. He is just unconscious. And the only way he busts is if he gets seriously hurt. Which could happen to any prospect. Otherwise, he'll be a top RB in the NFL right away.
I think Jets are going
1a Rosen
1b Mayfield
No way they trade up to 3 without being certain they get someone they like, and we all know its going to be QB. They will be guaranteed one of those two (or even Darnold) at that spot.
Giants need to be careful here if they covet Rosen that the freakin Jets dont leapfrog to no 1 and snatch him.
I am going to call it now. I think the Giants want Rosen. The kid has mentioned them multiple times unprovoked. I think theres a little smoke there, though he must not be a great poker player as hes having trouble containing his excitement.
They might like him but what matters is if they like him the best. They certainly aren't going to tell any of these prospects who they like the best before they are on the clock on draft night.
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Denver is the team to watch now. Keenum was clearly their backup plan to Cousins. Keenum is not the long term answer there and they will be interested in a QB. Elway is not afraid to make a move to get his QB. That's about as far as I am willing to go down unless the Bills come in with a ridiculous offer like Both 1st this year, both seconds, and a 2019 and 2020 1st which surely won't happen.
Not sure Denver have the ammo. They've got 10 picks, but most are after the 3rd round
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Round 1: 5th overall
Round 2: 40th overall
Round 3: 71st overall
Round 3: 99th overall (compensatory)
Round 4: 106th overall
Round 4: 109th overall (via 49ers)
Round 5: 142nd overall
Round 5: 163rd overall (via Falcons)
Round 6: 182nd overall
Round 7: 225th overall
What would you take from them to drop to 5? You'd probably need something from next year as well.
I'd start with their #1 next year, then one of their 3's and either their 2 from this year or next. Preferably this year's 2.
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In comment 13872192 Milton said:
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In comment 13871734 Mike in NJ said:
So what's your point: that it's stupid to draft a QB in the top ten? I wonder how many teams in the NFL share that sentiment. Probably zero.
The point is that you take the best PLAYER available, not the best QB available. If the front office has Darnold, Rosen or one of the other QBs as the highest rated player on their board, then absolutely grab him. Many posters on here seem to be operating with the train of thought that taking a QB here is a must because the top of the draft is the only place youre going to find a replacement for Eli, if we dont take one of these guys were doomed.
Drafting like that is how you end up with JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez or Jake Locker.
This site is so confusing. I keep reading that you dont have to take a QB in the first round because they can be found later on. But then at the same time I keep reading that Webb must suck because he was drafted in the 3rd round and if he was any good, hed have been a 1st round pick.
I think a lot of us fall into the trap of equating different opinions posted here to 'BBI' as a singular entity. Remember, what you read is one poster's opinion, then another. Pick any issue, you'd find different opinions all over the map if you polled the posters here. And also, the logic might be sound on both sides of the issue, even though the opinions stated might be opposing views.
Cimini:
'I believe the Jets' top three are Sam Darnold, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen, in no particular order. That's based on conversations with personnel people around the league. The early sense is that the Jets don't rate Baker Mayfield in that upper-echelon category."
I think this is right. You don't give up three picks to move up for the short guy. You do it for the prototype.
Link - ( New Window )
Cimini:
'I believe the Jets' top three are Sam Darnold, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen, in no particular order. That's based on conversations with personnel people around the league. The early sense is that the Jets don't rate Baker Mayfield in that upper-echelon category."
I think this is right. You don't give up three picks to move up for the short guy. You do it for the prototype. Link - ( New Window )
This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made. If both the Giants and Jets select QB's it will be fun watching them develop. Obviously they will always be compared to each other.
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This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made.
Unless moving up to #3 was just a precursor to moving up to #1.
True but I think Cleveland has no intentions of trading down. The Jets just gave up most of their ammunition to trade up to 3. They don't have any seconds this year or next. Unless they are willing to part with Leonard Williams or Jamal Adams as part of a package then it's not going to happen.
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This is the only thing that makes sense for trading up to 3 before the first two picks were made.
Unless moving up to #3 was just a precursor to moving up to #1.
Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
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In comment 13871577 allstarjim said:
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In comment 13871264 bluepepper said:
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he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes theyre different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
Bush was compared to Gayle Sayers by the talking heads. Go check YouTube. You saying Im 100% or 1000% wrong doesnt change history.
Like I said, the hype and ridiculous comparisons are the same.
Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
Even though I don't want to help the Jets get their next potential franchise QB, especially if they are going to pick Rosen, getting their 2019 1st round pick to move down 1 spot is enticing.
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Or #2. I just don't see Cleveland moving out of the top spot and missing out on their top choice of QB. I think it's much more likely the Giants pass on a QB than Cleveland.
I could see the Jets getting antsy the Giants trade with Denver and have the Broncos jump them, so they offer up their #1 next year to the Giants to move up a spot. I can definitely see DG doing that if he doesn't want a QB.
I can see that happening because to me it's more likely the Jets have their eyes set on one or two of the QBs than three or four of them and wouldn't just be happy with whoever is left at 3.
Even though I don't want to help the Jets get their next potential franchise QB, especially if they are going to pick Rosen, getting their 2019 1st round pick to move down 1 spot is enticing.
Well to me they're already going to get their next franchise QB at 3 so I look at it more of us getting help moving forward than helping them get a QB.
I can't help but think the same guy making this pick for them thought drafting Hackenburgh was good and maybe we can fleece him for his #1 next year and he screws this pick up as well.
All that of course going on the assumption DG doesn't love a QB at 2.
Well to me they're already going to get their next franchise QB at 3 so I look at it more of us getting help moving forward than helping them get a QB.
I can't help but think the same guy making this pick for them thought drafting Hackenburgh was good and maybe we can fleece him for his #1 next year and he screws this pick up as well.
All that of course going on the assumption DG doesn't love a QB at 2.
Well I would much rather see the Jets pin their hopes on Allen at 3 rather than Rosen at 2. Now if the Jets said that they will take Allen with the 2nd pick leaving Rosen for the Giants at 3 then I would be thrilled to make that move. Hell I would throw in Flowers.
My guess is the Giants take a QB or Barkley unless they receive an incredible offer to trade down, which is certainly possible.
Bush was compared to Gayle Sayers by the talking heads. Go check YouTube. You saying Im 100% or 1000% wrong doesnt change history.
Like I said, the hype and ridiculous comparisons are the same.
I've checked Youtube. You know what they also said about Bush? They actually DID question his ability to run between the tackles, something that actual draft experts in media and NFL scouts and execs DON'T do with Barkley. They questioned his ability to be a bellcow. The thinking was get him the ball 10-15 times a game and he can change the game. Get him out in space, use him as a receiver and a returner, wherever you can get him in space. They didn't say he could run it 20-25 times a game because he was a smaller back that didn't even have that role on USC. LenDale White was the hammer in that backfield. Just because Bush was overhyped doesn't mean Barkley is. Was LaDainian Tomlinson hyped a lot? You bet your ass he was. Was Marshall Faulk? Absolutely. And those guys were Hall of Famers. And there were probably those espousing dumb opinions about why they wouldn't be good just because the Jets drafted Blair Thomas #2 overall and he ended up not being any good.
Barkley and Bush are as far apart as Calvin Johnson and Ike Hilliard.
He failed to get to 100 yards rushing in 23 of them.
(61%)
He failed to get to 100 yards rushing in 23 of them.
(61%)
That is not even close to a good measure of the kind of impact he had on games.
100 yards is a nice round number, also, but it is overblown as to analyzing a successful game. And there is also some nonsense reasoning in here. I for one love how they included the very first game he played in at PSU and got 1 carry. A few games later got 9 touches against San Diego State as a freshman, which he turned into 84 yards and a TD.
And I'm sure they dismiss the 99 yards rushing (on 12 carries) against Ohio State as a sophomore...but that sucks because he didn't get to 100, right?
He also has 17 multi-touchdown games, not including a game in which he returned a kick for a TD and threw a TD pass in the same game.
He has 23 games in which he went over 100 yards from scrimmage. Not counting a 99 yard game, 96 yard game, and a 92 yard game. Pretty good when some of these games he only played about 1 half of football. He has 10 games where he went for 190 yards or more from scrimmage (ok, I included a 189-yard game in there). He has a 300+ yard scrimmage game against Iowa.
What he has accomplished is extraordinary given average QB play, mediocre line play, and being the focal point of the defense for much of his career. In those 37 games he scored 53 TDs and threw for another.
You can go through all kinds of statistical gymnastics to try and paint a dishonest picture about what kind of talent he is, but in the end, like he will NFL defenders, he's going to embarrass you.