he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
You can have all the “generational talent” in the world in the absolute prime of their careers at WR & RB
But if you have the equivalent of Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell, You arent winning anything
Tell that to the Vikings, who went to the NFC Championship game with an undrafted free agent at QB with the offensive coordinator who is now our HC.
And Latavius Murray/McKinnon at RB. Cuts both ways.
and usually when the QB at the top is a top QB, you know it. There’s one usually with an occasional Manning/Leaf debate that you’ve been waiting anxiously on for three years until graduation. And then, you have, likely like this year, qbs that go high merely because they are qbs. You can run into problems with a Leaf, but in the other case, you end up with Couches.
The bottom line is, do your homework and get a guy whose talent dictates his draft position and you’ll be much better off in the long run.
But, again, the characterization that these QBs are only going high Â
Because they're QBs is not accurate. They were talking about these players as top of the draft talent at this time last year before the 2017 season was played. The story of the 2017 Jets season was how needed to tank to position themselves for one of those guys.
But, again, the characterization that these QBs are only going high Â
Because they're QBs is not accurate. They were talking about these players as top of the draft talent at this time last year before the 2017 season was played. The story of the 2017 Jets season was how needed to tank to position themselves for one of those guys. 98.7 ESPN Radio was doing updates on Rosen and Darnold games at the start of the year because most people expected the Jets to have the season the Giants did and finally get their QB.
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes they’re different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
Wow. Then there’s a lot of scouts needing to be canned Â
Although i can see Rosen, and I might have picked Rosen, if ability was the only comsideration. He’s no Barkley but if you had positional bonus points, it would have seemed justifiable.
Well this thread finally appears to be losing steam. Â
Wrong. You can find your quarterback at the bottom of the first round, or on day 2 or 3 of the draft just like any other position.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Case Keemun, even guys like Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco have been quarterbacks for winning teams and were not top 10 drafts picks. That’s not an “exception to the rule,” that’s damn near half the starting quarterbacks in the league. If we don’t like one of the 4 guys at the top of the draft you don’t just settle to take one.
Take the best guy available whether it’s Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or one of the QBs. For all we know Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph, or Kyle Lauletta could be better than the QB we would take at 2.
Using Tom Brady is a bit misleading.
Dak Prescott sure didn't look like a franchise guy last year. That book is yet to be written
Case Keenum is a sixth-year veteran. 2017 was the first moment he's ever looked competent enough to stick to one team, and he had a meltdown game in a pretty inopportune time of the season.
And I think you want to aim a bit higher than Andy Dalton or even Flacco for your next QB.
Dak looks to be a good enough qb to win with. Is he a top 10 QB in the league? Probably not, but he’s good enough to field a competitive team with and if you have the right guys around him can probably be the QB on a contender. As for Flacco, he’s had one losing season in his career and won a Super Bowl. Andy Dalton is a 3 time Pro Bowler and has played in the post season 4 times. Both have had as much, if not more success than guys like Matt Stafford, Alex Smith, Sam Bradford, etc. that were taken at the top of the draft.
The point is, just because a quarterback isn’t taken in the top 10 doesn’t mean you’re going to get Kent Graham/Danny Kanell level QB play. You can find good quarterbacks later in the draft just like at any other position, so just take the best player available.
they better sound out the smoke signals. The Jets can easily move up to #1 to jump us. Cleveland with #3 and #4 can still get their guy and deal further.
was that Webb was a 3rd round pick and some had him rated even higher than that. Big difference between Webb and a guy like Keenum.
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
do that exercise for every position in the NFL. Let me know how that goes.
That’s exactly the point. You can find good players at every position, including QB, every where in the draft so just take the best player available. Some of you are acting like this is the only opportunity that we will ever have to find our next quarterback, and that is not the case as evidenced by where all of the named players were picked.
Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10 Â
Excluding last year because it’s too soon to tell with those guys:
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? I’d say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Let’s not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Eli’s replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
The giants had a higher than 3rd round grade on Webb Â
Now it was the previous guys so take it for what isn’t worth.
Also, people go 3rd round so he must not be good. You just can’t say that.
Don’t forget, the plan for the team was *always* to play Eli two years and slide Webb in as a replacement. Just sucking and picking two, doesn’t necessarily change that. Again, different management though. But that doesn’t alter the logic.
RE: Over the last 10 years these are the quarterbacks taken in the top 10 Â
Excluding last year because it’s too soon to tell with those guys:
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? I’d say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Let’s not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Eli’s replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
You take the chance on landing Carson Wentz rather than getting a RB like Barkley who can easily bust out or get hurt. Barkley is not a sure thing. Personally I think Derrius Guice might be better. RBs are a dime a dozen.
The giants had a higher than 3rd round grade on Webb
Bill L : 5:36 pm : link : reply
Now it was the previous guys so take it for what isn’t worth.
Which doesn't mean much.....a player picked after the second round by them?
Also, people go 3rd round so he must not be good. You just can’t say that.
No......but the fact that they picked him, and then didn't display him, were they hiding something?
Don’t forget, the plan for the team was *always* to play Eli two years and slide Webb in as a replacement. Just sucking and picking two, doesn’t necessarily change that. Again, different management though. But that doesn’t alter the logic.
How in the world do you have a plan for a qb to take over when you have no idea of what he is capable of?
With the firing of Mac and Reese, this team had the choice of a new plan.....which doesn't seem to be much different from plan of the last 6 years....that we are only one or two players away.....I can't see us not going QB with the second pick, to hedge the gamble that Gettleman is making....
I think Darnold will be special....so I have no issue drafting him. Â
But with that, I feel Shurmur's ability with QBs will have a major impact on what they do in the draft. Shurmur is going to feel he can win with Webb as he probably feels his offense and his skill set will have him playing well.
was that Webb was a 3rd round pick and some had him rated even higher than that. Big difference between Webb and a guy like Keenum.
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
"Davis Webb's got a live arm. He drops it in the bucket. Moves well enough, quick release, big arm. He's one of the five quarterbacks where you can make a case in this draft that they can start a game in the NFL and be a quarterback." -- Mike Mayock
During the fall, some team sources told WalterFootball.com that there were some area scouts for the west coast who had a higher grade on Davis Webb than they had given to Jared Goff a year earlier. While Goff was the No. 1-overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, there were teams that had him graded much later and didn't like him as a prospect. Still, it was nice acclaim for Webb to be graded higher than Goff and validated Webb status as am NFL prospect.
Davis Webb: Another QB Enters the Round 1 Conversation "Six weeks before the draft, Webb is a legitimate second-round candidate, and it’s feasible that, come the last weekend in April, he will be billed as someone’s quarterback of the future." SportsIllustrated
Senior Bowl executive director Phil Savage reports that "[t]he [Cal QB] Davis Webb talk is legit as far as [the] first round."
Savage relays that he has "had several NFL people tell [him] that [Webb] is the guy they would want to coach." We have heard a consistent bubbling of rumor around the possibility of Webb landing in the first round as the pre-draft process hits its stretch run. At the end of March, Pete Prisco of CBS Sports likewise heard that steam was picking up toward a Day 1 selection. Webb, himself, has said that teams in the double-digits have told him he is a first-round talent. If he isn't swept off the board by the end of Round 1, he will almost certainly find an NFL home early in Round 2.
An NFL scout says Cal QB Davis Webb "has Dak-like intangibles."
Webb's stock is surging at the right time. NFL Network's Ian Rapoport "wouldn't be surprised to see a team trade back into round 1" for Webb, a sentiment we've read on multiple occasions over the past 10 days. Draft Analyst's Tony Pauline reported Tuesday that if the Browns don't take UNC's Mitchell Trubisky in Round 1, Webb is "likely to be the target" with the No. 33 selection.
One NFL personnel executive believes that Clemson QB Deshaun Watson and Cal QB Davis Webb will be the only quarterbacks selected on Day 1 of the draft.
Well that would be a weird combo. Color us surprised if UNC QB Mitchell Trubisky is still available at the end of the first round. "I am sticking to my Webb guns," the executive insisted. "He's the second-best QB in this class. I have read the Trubisky and Mahomes buzz. Not sure if I believe it." This came about from an informal poll of five insiders by NFL Media's Daniel Jeremiah to gauge just how many quarterbacks might be taken in Round 1. The most optimistic executive forwarded the possibility of four gunslingers going off the board by the end of April 27. Three is probably the safest bet.
The MMQB's Albert Breer mentioned Cal's Davis Webb as one of five QBs who has a chance of being selected in the first round.
We would be more than stunned if this happens. Webb is not close to being ready for the NFL. He was arguably the best quarterback at the Senior Bowl... but the competition was less than ideal. Webb has a big arm, but has only played out of the Air Raid system, a system with a playbook of five to seven concepts that passers master (see Jared Goff). Even if it is not a first round selection, Webb seems destined for a second day pick.
Pick a qb or trade down. I know that the Jets didn't trade all that to move up with the opportunity to select Barkley. Quarterbacks have so much greater value and it's not like we don't need one. Also, it is not like there aren't goo prospects out there. Quarterbacks have a higher degree of busts but you have to risk it. When are we going to pick this high again? Hopefully never.
do that exercise for every position in the NFL. Let me know how that goes.
That’s exactly the point. You can find good players at every position, including QB, every where in the draft so just take the best player available. Some of you are acting like this is the only opportunity that we will ever have to find our next quarterback, and that is not the case as evidenced by where all of the named players were picked.
And the point you are missing is that the further away from a top pick you get he harder it is to find a starting QB, let alone a great one. If that’s the case why wouldn’t you maximize your ability to get a QB which happens to be the hardest and most expensive to fill?
Several posters showed the bust rate of QBs per round, it gets exponentially worse the further down you go.
that would be best possible scenario for the Giants. They aren’t passing on their top QB which, IMO, is one of Darnold or Rosen, probably Darnold. We would have to flat out not like these QBs to take Barkley over both. I don’t think that’s very realistic.
If Darnold is gone, maybe that happens.
I think the Jets are looking at Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen Â
They will draft one of these three. If I'm the Giants, I take either Darnold or Allen. I'm not interested in Mayfield, and the more film I see of Barkley, the more convinced I am that he is not Emmitt Smith, and to be taken 2nd overall, he better be that good. Should the Giants' consider trading their 2nd overall for a basket of ones and twos? Possibly. My problem is that I'm not sure what to make of Webb. He's tall, has good vision, has a nice touch, and is willing to work hard, but he strikes me as somewhat frail and he's not very mobile.
because of this Jets move, people will underestimate the fact that Barkley is still far and away not only the best athlete by a wide margin in this draft but also the best prospect/player in the draft with the least likelihood of becoming a bust. That hasn't changed.
Your opinion.
Not just me.
No, you’re the one stating your opinion like it were fact. But we will see on draft day, now wont we?
If we trade back with the Browns we still get Nelson. That is the move! A bushel full of picks AND the best player in the draft at 4. That is the move!
So, again, we're just going to buy Jerry Reese just smacked a home run Â
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
Giving up three 2nds to take a RB is just stupid. But it is the Jets and if Darnold and Rosen are gone, it’s possible.
The Jets made the move because they'd be happy with either Darnold, Rosen or Allen.
If they didn't think this way they would have never made the move.
This is pretty clear to me.
IMO it says they are fine with Darnold, Rosen, Allen OR Mayfield. You don't know how their board stacks up and I could easily see Rosen or Allen as #4 on some boards.
Mayfield showed well at the combine and granted I've heard the criticism that he was trying to throw hard but Mayfield throwing at higher velocity than Rosen isn't insignificant.
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
RE: I think the Jets are looking at Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen Â
They will draft one of these three. If I'm the Giants, I take either Darnold or Allen. I'm not interested in Mayfield, and the more film I see of Barkley, the more convinced I am that he is not Emmitt Smith, and to be taken 2nd overall, he better be that good. Should the Giants' consider trading their 2nd overall for a basket of ones and twos? Possibly. My problem is that I'm not sure what to make of Webb. He's tall, has good vision, has a nice touch, and is willing to work hard, but he strikes me as somewhat frail and he's not very mobile.
just remember how Dallas looked WITH zeke vs WITHOUT him
RE: RE: So, again, we're just going to buy Jerry Reese just smacked a home run Â
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesn’t buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
Is that this is a precursor to the Jets moving into the number one spot in a trade with Cleveland. The Jets still have next year's first round pick to exchange in trade and I could see them using it to move in front of the Giants in order to select Rosen.
We could have a situation like in 2004, where the Chargers had Rivers as the QB that they wanted, but they knew Eli as the #1 QB on most people's draft boards. I remember San Diego Head Coach Marty Schottenheimer being asked who was going to be the first pick in the draft and his answer was, "Eli Manning. I can't tell you for sure who will be making the pick, but the first pick will be Eli" (or words to that effect). If the Browns see Rosen as the clear cut #1 overall, but they prefer a different QB (for whatever reason, same as the Chargers preferring Rivers despite Eli being the clear cut #1 overall), they could feel safe trading down to the #3 spot with confidence they will still get their man (especially if it's Mayfield).
To avoid this, it is extremely important for the Giants to show interest in all the QBs and in Barkley as well (just to show they aren't committed to a QB). The Browns need to be in the dark about who the Giants may select in order to keep them from trading out of the #1 spot (with either the Jets, Broncos, or Bills). They have to fear that the Giants will take the QB which they covet the most.
This trade telegraphs Giants enormous interest in QBs and/or Barkley Â
that deal was rich enough that had the Giants been interested in trading back and grabbing a bunch of picks they could have done it. Had they just asked for a little bit more the Jets probably would have done it.
I think it's safe to deduce that short of an overwhelming trade offer the Giants aren't looking to move backwards. I'd expect the NFL strongly got that message as well.
RE: The fear right now in Giants headquarters.... Â
Is that this is a precursor to the Jets moving into the number one spot in a trade with Cleveland. The Jets still have next year's first round pick to exchange in trade and I could see them using it to move in front of the Giants in order to select Rosen.
We could have a situation like in 2004, where the Chargers had Rivers as the QB that they wanted, but they knew Eli as the #1 QB on most people's draft boards. I remember San Diego Head Coach Marty Schottenheimer being asked who was going to be the first pick in the draft and his answer was, "Eli Manning. I can't tell you for sure who will be making the pick, but the first pick will be Eli" (or words to that effect). If the Browns see Rosen as the clear cut #1 overall, but they prefer a different QB (for whatever reason, same as the Chargers preferring Rivers despite Eli being the clear cut #1 overall), they could feel safe trading down to the #3 spot with confidence they will still get their man (especially if it's Mayfield).
To avoid this, it is extremely important for the Giants to show interest in all the QBs and in Barkley as well (just to show they aren't committed to a QB). The Browns need to be in the dark about who the Giants may select in order to keep them from trading out of the #1 spot (with either the Jets, Broncos, or Bills). They have to fear that the Giants will take the QB which they covet the most.
We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
RE: RE: I think the Jets are looking at Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen Â
They will draft one of these three. If I'm the Giants, I take either Darnold or Allen. I'm not interested in Mayfield, and the more film I see of Barkley, the more convinced I am that he is not Emmitt Smith, and to be taken 2nd overall, he better be that good. Should the Giants' consider trading their 2nd overall for a basket of ones and twos? Possibly. My problem is that I'm not sure what to make of Webb. He's tall, has good vision, has a nice touch, and is willing to work hard, but he strikes me as somewhat frail and he's not very mobile.
just remember how Dallas looked WITH zeke vs WITHOUT him
exactly, what the heck do you see that leads you to believe he ISNT smith. im not sayng he is a HoF before he plays a down, but as a prospect he is as good as peterson. the guy doesnt have a visible flaw and off the field he is well spoken with no issues. he is clean prospect with a tremendous skillset. the kid is zeke but faster, i mean....
RE: RE: RE: So, again, we're just going to buy Jerry Reese just smacked a home run Â
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesn’t buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
If we're going by history, then the historical evidence is firmly against Davis Webb even playing in a regular season game much less being any good.
Ryan Nassib was a steal who could start in the NFL. Three years and two teams later he's still nothing.
Rhett Bomar, I'll just leave that there.
Andre Woodson didn't even make it out of training camp.
All of them were scouted and drafted by the same people.
RE: RE: The fear right now in Giants headquarters.... Â
We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
But they could trade the pick to a team that does covet Rosen if they are confident the could get their QB with the #3 overall (if they were to trade down with the Jets) or the #4 overall. They only need to have two QBs other than Rosen on their wish list for them to feel confident in trading down. Unless they believe there is a chance that neither the Jets or Giants would select Rosen. Like I said, in 2004 the Chargers were able to demand the #4 overall pick, a third round pick, and future 1st and 5th round picks of the Giants and still come away with the QB of their choice. Gettleman needs to avoid a repeat of that, but he also needs to avoid missing out on the QB of his choice, if he prefers one clearly above the rest.
Was Dallas really that much better with Elliot than without? Â
They went 6-4 with him and 3-3 without. Not exactly a huge difference. And one of the wins with him was over Philly in last game of year with Philly clinching. If the SB champs had won Dallas would have been .500 with him and .500 without him. And they played both Washington once with and once without, and same with the Giants. In both cases the results were not very different with or without him. AND In both cases Dallas scored more points in the games without Elliott.
Contrast this to the difference a few years back with and without Romo. The difference there was much more pronounced.
RE: RE: RE: RE: So, again, we're just going to buy Jerry Reese just smacked a home run Â
here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesn’t buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
If we're going by history, then the historical evidence is firmly against Davis Webb even playing in a regular season game much less being any good.
Ryan Nassib was a steal who could start in the NFL. Three years and two teams later he's still nothing.
Rhett Bomar, I'll just leave that there.
Andre Woodson didn't even make it out of training camp.
All of them were scouted and drafted by the same people.
well, if that’s your criteria, then realize it to the same scouts that you want to give the okay on these qbs
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes they’re different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.
...forced to go QB at #1 and then trading up with us for Barkley at # 2.
We then go (hopefully) Nelson at 4 and pocket a couple more premium picks!
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
Darnaud and Rosen will be no 1 and 2
They have their #1 next year. Plus some 3's.
Quote:
In comment 13871317 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
You can have all the “generational talent” in the world in the absolute prime of their careers at WR & RB
But if you have the equivalent of Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell, You arent winning anything
Tell that to the Vikings, who went to the NFC Championship game with an undrafted free agent at QB with the offensive coordinator who is now our HC.
And Latavius Murray/McKinnon at RB. Cuts both ways.
The bottom line is, do your homework and get a guy whose talent dictates his draft position and you’ll be much better off in the long run.
Quote:
he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes they’re different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
Lol I was thinking the same.
Quote:
Wrong. You can find your quarterback at the bottom of the first round, or on day 2 or 3 of the draft just like any other position.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Case Keemun, even guys like Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco have been quarterbacks for winning teams and were not top 10 drafts picks. That’s not an “exception to the rule,” that’s damn near half the starting quarterbacks in the league. If we don’t like one of the 4 guys at the top of the draft you don’t just settle to take one.
Take the best guy available whether it’s Barkley, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, or one of the QBs. For all we know Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph, or Kyle Lauletta could be better than the QB we would take at 2.
Using Tom Brady is a bit misleading.
Dak Prescott sure didn't look like a franchise guy last year. That book is yet to be written
Case Keenum is a sixth-year veteran. 2017 was the first moment he's ever looked competent enough to stick to one team, and he had a meltdown game in a pretty inopportune time of the season.
And I think you want to aim a bit higher than Andy Dalton or even Flacco for your next QB.
Dak looks to be a good enough qb to win with. Is he a top 10 QB in the league? Probably not, but he’s good enough to field a competitive team with and if you have the right guys around him can probably be the QB on a contender. As for Flacco, he’s had one losing season in his career and won a Super Bowl. Andy Dalton is a 3 time Pro Bowler and has played in the post season 4 times. Both have had as much, if not more success than guys like Matt Stafford, Alex Smith, Sam Bradford, etc. that were taken at the top of the draft.
The point is, just because a quarterback isn’t taken in the top 10 doesn’t mean you’re going to get Kent Graham/Danny Kanell level QB play. You can find good quarterbacks later in the draft just like at any other position, so just take the best player available.
I don't know about "easily."
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
That’s exactly the point. You can find good players at every position, including QB, every where in the draft so just take the best player available. Some of you are acting like this is the only opportunity that we will ever have to find our next quarterback, and that is not the case as evidenced by where all of the named players were picked.
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? I’d say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Let’s not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Eli’s replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
Also, people go 3rd round so he must not be good. You just can’t say that.
Don’t forget, the plan for the team was *always* to play Eli two years and slide Webb in as a replacement. Just sucking and picking two, doesn’t necessarily change that. Again, different management though. But that doesn’t alter the logic.
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Ryan
Matt Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Andrew Luck
RG3
Ryan Tannehill
Blake Bortles
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
How many of those guys would you be happy with taking second overall? I’d say Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Wentz for sure. Probably Goff, and then maybe on Winston and Mariota?
Let’s not act like taking the quarterback at 2 gives any good probability that we have Eli’s replacement, more than half of those guys are garbage.
You take the chance on landing Carson Wentz rather than getting a RB like Barkley who can easily bust out or get hurt. Barkley is not a sure thing. Personally I think Derrius Guice might be better. RBs are a dime a dozen.
Bill L : 5:36 pm : link : reply
Now it was the previous guys so take it for what isn’t worth.
Which doesn't mean much.....a player picked after the second round by them?
Also, people go 3rd round so he must not be good. You just can’t say that.
No......but the fact that they picked him, and then didn't display him, were they hiding something?
Don’t forget, the plan for the team was *always* to play Eli two years and slide Webb in as a replacement. Just sucking and picking two, doesn’t necessarily change that. Again, different management though. But that doesn’t alter the logic.
How in the world do you have a plan for a qb to take over when you have no idea of what he is capable of?
With the firing of Mac and Reese, this team had the choice of a new plan.....which doesn't seem to be much different from plan of the last 6 years....that we are only one or two players away.....I can't see us not going QB with the second pick, to hedge the gamble that Gettleman is making....
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was that Webb was a 3rd round pick and some had him rated even higher than that. Big difference between Webb and a guy like Keenum.
Who specifically had Webb rated higher than a 3rd round pick, and what are their NFL credentials? I read this all the time and have never seen any proof from anyone who writes it.
"Davis Webb's got a live arm. He drops it in the bucket. Moves well enough, quick release, big arm. He's one of the five quarterbacks where you can make a case in this draft that they can start a game in the NFL and be a quarterback." -- Mike Mayock
During the fall, some team sources told WalterFootball.com that there were some area scouts for the west coast who had a higher grade on Davis Webb than they had given to Jared Goff a year earlier. While Goff was the No. 1-overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, there were teams that had him graded much later and didn't like him as a prospect. Still, it was nice acclaim for Webb to be graded higher than Goff and validated Webb status as am NFL prospect.
Davis Webb: Another QB Enters the Round 1 Conversation "Six weeks before the draft, Webb is a legitimate second-round candidate, and it’s feasible that, come the last weekend in April, he will be billed as someone’s quarterback of the future." SportsIllustrated
Senior Bowl executive director Phil Savage reports that "[t]he [Cal QB] Davis Webb talk is legit as far as [the] first round."
Savage relays that he has "had several NFL people tell [him] that [Webb] is the guy they would want to coach." We have heard a consistent bubbling of rumor around the possibility of Webb landing in the first round as the pre-draft process hits its stretch run. At the end of March, Pete Prisco of CBS Sports likewise heard that steam was picking up toward a Day 1 selection. Webb, himself, has said that teams in the double-digits have told him he is a first-round talent. If he isn't swept off the board by the end of Round 1, he will almost certainly find an NFL home early in Round 2.
An NFL scout says Cal QB Davis Webb "has Dak-like intangibles."
Webb's stock is surging at the right time. NFL Network's Ian Rapoport "wouldn't be surprised to see a team trade back into round 1" for Webb, a sentiment we've read on multiple occasions over the past 10 days. Draft Analyst's Tony Pauline reported Tuesday that if the Browns don't take UNC's Mitchell Trubisky in Round 1, Webb is "likely to be the target" with the No. 33 selection.
One NFL personnel executive believes that Clemson QB Deshaun Watson and Cal QB Davis Webb will be the only quarterbacks selected on Day 1 of the draft.
Well that would be a weird combo. Color us surprised if UNC QB Mitchell Trubisky is still available at the end of the first round. "I am sticking to my Webb guns," the executive insisted. "He's the second-best QB in this class. I have read the Trubisky and Mahomes buzz. Not sure if I believe it." This came about from an informal poll of five insiders by NFL Media's Daniel Jeremiah to gauge just how many quarterbacks might be taken in Round 1. The most optimistic executive forwarded the possibility of four gunslingers going off the board by the end of April 27. Three is probably the safest bet.
The MMQB's Albert Breer mentioned Cal's Davis Webb as one of five QBs who has a chance of being selected in the first round.
We would be more than stunned if this happens. Webb is not close to being ready for the NFL. He was arguably the best quarterback at the Senior Bowl... but the competition was less than ideal. Webb has a big arm, but has only played out of the Air Raid system, a system with a playbook of five to seven concepts that passers master (see Jared Goff). Even if it is not a first round selection, Webb seems destined for a second day pick.
Giving up three 2nds to take a RB is just stupid. But it is the Jets and if Darnold and Rosen are gone, it’s possible.
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do that exercise for every position in the NFL. Let me know how that goes.
That’s exactly the point. You can find good players at every position, including QB, every where in the draft so just take the best player available. Some of you are acting like this is the only opportunity that we will ever have to find our next quarterback, and that is not the case as evidenced by where all of the named players were picked.
And the point you are missing is that the further away from a top pick you get he harder it is to find a starting QB, let alone a great one. If that’s the case why wouldn’t you maximize your ability to get a QB which happens to be the hardest and most expensive to fill?
Several posters showed the bust rate of QBs per round, it gets exponentially worse the further down you go.
Browns - Allen
Giants - Barkley
Jets - Rosen/Darnold
If Darnold is gone, maybe that happens.
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if jets take barkley
Giving up three 2nds to take a RB is just stupid. But it is the Jets and if Darnold and Rosen are gone, it’s possible.
The Jets made the move because they'd be happy with either Darnold, Rosen or Allen.
If they didn't think this way they would have never made the move.
This is pretty clear to me.
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In comment 13871289 ryanmkeane said:
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because of this Jets move, people will underestimate the fact that Barkley is still far and away not only the best athlete by a wide margin in this draft but also the best prospect/player in the draft with the least likelihood of becoming a bust. That hasn't changed.
Your opinion.
Not just me.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
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In comment 13871834 Mr. Nickels said:
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if jets take barkley
Giving up three 2nds to take a RB is just stupid. But it is the Jets and if Darnold and Rosen are gone, it’s possible.
The Jets made the move because they'd be happy with either Darnold, Rosen or Allen.
If they didn't think this way they would have never made the move.
This is pretty clear to me.
IMO it says they are fine with Darnold, Rosen, Allen OR Mayfield. You don't know how their board stacks up and I could easily see Rosen or Allen as #4 on some boards.
Mayfield showed well at the combine and granted I've heard the criticism that he was trying to throw hard but Mayfield throwing at higher velocity than Rosen isn't insignificant.
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If the Giants pass up 4-5 premium picks for a running back I’ll lose my mind. The Giants can get a productive back in round 3.
yes!
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
just remember how Dallas looked WITH zeke vs WITHOUT him
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here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
We could have a situation like in 2004, where the Chargers had Rivers as the QB that they wanted, but they knew Eli as the #1 QB on most people's draft boards. I remember San Diego Head Coach Marty Schottenheimer being asked who was going to be the first pick in the draft and his answer was, "Eli Manning. I can't tell you for sure who will be making the pick, but the first pick will be Eli" (or words to that effect). If the Browns see Rosen as the clear cut #1 overall, but they prefer a different QB (for whatever reason, same as the Chargers preferring Rivers despite Eli being the clear cut #1 overall), they could feel safe trading down to the #3 spot with confidence they will still get their man (especially if it's Mayfield).
To avoid this, it is extremely important for the Giants to show interest in all the QBs and in Barkley as well (just to show they aren't committed to a QB). The Browns need to be in the dark about who the Giants may select in order to keep them from trading out of the #1 spot (with either the Jets, Broncos, or Bills). They have to fear that the Giants will take the QB which they covet the most.
I think it's safe to deduce that short of an overwhelming trade offer the Giants aren't looking to move backwards. I'd expect the NFL strongly got that message as well.
We could have a situation like in 2004, where the Chargers had Rivers as the QB that they wanted, but they knew Eli as the #1 QB on most people's draft boards. I remember San Diego Head Coach Marty Schottenheimer being asked who was going to be the first pick in the draft and his answer was, "Eli Manning. I can't tell you for sure who will be making the pick, but the first pick will be Eli" (or words to that effect). If the Browns see Rosen as the clear cut #1 overall, but they prefer a different QB (for whatever reason, same as the Chargers preferring Rivers despite Eli being the clear cut #1 overall), they could feel safe trading down to the #3 spot with confidence they will still get their man (especially if it's Mayfield).
To avoid this, it is extremely important for the Giants to show interest in all the QBs and in Barkley as well (just to show they aren't committed to a QB). The Browns need to be in the dark about who the Giants may select in order to keep them from trading out of the #1 spot (with either the Jets, Broncos, or Bills). They have to fear that the Giants will take the QB which they covet the most.
We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
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They will draft one of these three. If I'm the Giants, I take either Darnold or Allen. I'm not interested in Mayfield, and the more film I see of Barkley, the more convinced I am that he is not Emmitt Smith, and to be taken 2nd overall, he better be that good. Should the Giants' consider trading their 2nd overall for a basket of ones and twos? Possibly. My problem is that I'm not sure what to make of Webb. He's tall, has good vision, has a nice touch, and is willing to work hard, but he strikes me as somewhat frail and he's not very mobile.
just remember how Dallas looked WITH zeke vs WITHOUT him
exactly, what the heck do you see that leads you to believe he ISNT smith. im not sayng he is a HoF before he plays a down, but as a prospect he is as good as peterson. the guy doesnt have a visible flaw and off the field he is well spoken with no issues. he is clean prospect with a tremendous skillset. the kid is zeke but faster, i mean....
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In comment 13871969 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesn’t buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
If we're going by history, then the historical evidence is firmly against Davis Webb even playing in a regular season game much less being any good.
Ryan Nassib was a steal who could start in the NFL. Three years and two teams later he's still nothing.
Rhett Bomar, I'll just leave that there.
Andre Woodson didn't even make it out of training camp.
All of them were scouted and drafted by the same people.
We really havent heard anything that links Rosen to the Browns....at all.
Contrast this to the difference a few years back with and without Romo. The difference there was much more pronounced.
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In comment 13872009 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
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In comment 13871969 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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here. The guy who drafted three different project QBs who were worth nothing and who struggled to find 3rd rounders that can actually play, stole a starting NFL QB.
The pre-draft media hype on Webb doesn't support the result. Everybody else passed on him 2 or three times in favor of better QB prospects. And the head coach that probably had a hand in picking him had one shot to pick a QB other than Eli to play, and went with Geno Smith after eight months of working with Davis Webb.
TTH, they WANT to believe that Webb is the answer. Most of these knuckleheads didn't think much of the Webb selection. Now that they want Barkley, Nelson or a trade down, Webb is suddenly the future.
People will do this on any topic, they are stuck in their own narrative.
yeah, everybody who doesn’t buy into your worldview is a knucklehead.
Truth of the matter is that everybody here has a co-equal narrative and only two things are correct and only two things count: Giants management and history. Everyone else is spinning the exact same story but using different names.
If we're going by history, then the historical evidence is firmly against Davis Webb even playing in a regular season game much less being any good.
Ryan Nassib was a steal who could start in the NFL. Three years and two teams later he's still nothing.
Rhett Bomar, I'll just leave that there.
Andre Woodson didn't even make it out of training camp.
All of them were scouted and drafted by the same people.
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In comment 13871264 bluepepper said:
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he could easily disappoint. Think Reggie Bush. And please don't tell me Bush wasn't this highly regarded. He absolutely was and the Texans were crucified for passing on him.
He absolutely was not this highly regarded. Were the Texans criticized for not taking him at 1 overall? Yes. But they are completely different prospects. There were limitations and questions (that were talked about prior to the draft) to Bush's game that simply aren't there with Barkley.
The same shit being tossed around about Barkley was said about Bush. Yes they’re different players but the hype and ridiculous comparisons are exactly the same.
No it wasn't, I've previously posted evidence to the contrary and it can still be found on the internet. Bush was talked about as a guy that you get the ball 10-15 times per game but that he could significantly alter the game with those touches. He was not thought of as a franchise back that could carry the ball 270-300 times per season. He was thought of as a guy you could line up as a receiver, a returner, a third down back, and a guy who could take the edge that you wanted to get into space. He wasn't even the primary runner for USC, LenDale White was. You are 1000% wrong here. There were questions of what he could do as a runner and doubts he could be strong enough between the tackles. Nobody who knows what they are talking about has those doubts about Barkley.