for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Separating Josh Rosen's talent from risks

Strahan91 : 3/18/2018 9:51 am
It seems to me like all Josh Rosen threads wind up in the same place. Some posters aren't concerned about his medical history & personality. Those posters love his talent and want the Giants to draft him.

Others are concerned about those things and think he's too big a risk at 2. In this camp you have people who either see flaws with all of the qb prospects and want to go in a different direction or who much prefer Darnold, Allen, Mayfield.

What I haven't seen is much negativity around Rosen's talent as a football player. Putting aside any concerns about his frame/medical history, personality and wallet, are there posters who see flaws in Rosen the football player?

This thread will inevitably be filled with comments about those things being critically important, which they are but its been spoken about ad nauseam so I wanted to start a discussion on his talent, strengths and weaknesses.

The only things I see that you'd want to improve are his accuracy and how he moves in the pocket. His touch is incredible and he's quite accurate a lot of the time but occasionally forces throws into coverage when he should've thrown it away or gone in a different direction. His footwork is good but he's clearly athletic and doesn't do a great job of feeling and evading the rush. Both of those seem fixable within a couple of years with the right coaching staff around him.

What say you, BBI?
I don't see a winner  
Tim in VA : 3/18/2018 9:52 am : link
.
I see  
Eman11 : 3/18/2018 9:56 am : link
Sam Bradford.

Pass on Rosen for me.
No question great arm talent.  
youngd74 : 3/18/2018 10:00 am : link
Great Footwork. Accurate. Very smart. Doesn't evade the rush well enough and takes too many hits. Slight frame. Obviously not going to get many 212 starters. I just don't see a winner, and total opposite of Eli staying on the field. A less mobile Tony Romo.
RE: I see  
Dave in PA : 3/18/2018 10:07 am : link
In comment 13872372 Eman11 said:
Quote:
Sam Bradford.

Pass on Rosen for me.
Before or after ruining his shoulder before ever playing in the pros?
We can’t predict injuries, he may not suffer another concussion  
Jim in Hoboken : 3/18/2018 10:07 am : link
the rest of his career. He may seem competitive and eager for greatness, but if he does suffer another concussion and starts to manifest the slightest cognitive deficits, who is to say that his father wouldn’t be in his ear and he decides to pursue other avenues available to him? Most of these athletes have one option of making a living, that’s not the case with him.
IF you remove the injury concerns...  
Matt G : 3/18/2018 10:07 am : link
Rosen is the clear cut best of the bunch, IMHO...

I don't get Darnold at all... Bad footwork, bad mechanics, doesn't have a big enough arm to compensate for the slow delivery, questionable decision making and struggles to hang onto the football... I'm sure there's plenty that I'm just not seeing, but IMHO, he's gonna be a mess at the next level...
RE: RE: I see  
Eman11 : 3/18/2018 10:18 am : link
In comment 13872383 Dave in PA said:
Quote:
In comment 13872372 Eman11 said:


Quote:


Sam Bradford.

Pass on Rosen for me.

Before or after ruining his shoulder before ever playing in the pros?


He might not have ruined his shoulder but Rosen's injuries so far to me kind of run parallel to Bradford. That's my point. They're similar in several ways. Some good, some not so good.

Even though Bradford still went #1, he seemed like an injury waiting to happen and that's how I see Rosen. Great arm, and obviously talented but his injury history and not being able to stay on the field in college, doesn't bode well to me.
I see a QB savant...  
bw in dc : 3/18/2018 10:21 am : link
like Peyton Manning, bet a better athlete and better throwing skills. But less accomplished for a variety of reasons - some in his control, most not.

So I loved him as a prospect. I’m not turned off by his brashness, intellect, or outspokenness. I think it’s been overblown.

However, I have major concerns about the concussions and his proneness to injury. And that keeps me less inclined to be all in on him as the pick at #2.
RE: We can’t predict injuries, he may not suffer another concussion  
UConn4523 : 3/18/2018 10:35 am : link
In comment 13872384 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
the rest of his career. He may seem competitive and eager for greatness, but if he does suffer another concussion and starts to manifest the slightest cognitive deficits, who is to say that his father wouldn’t be in his ear and he decides to pursue other avenues available to him? Most of these athletes have one option of making a living, that’s not the case with him.


Plenty of research suggests he’s at an increased risk, especially when compounding previous. Concussions. You can’t predict it, but if he has one it’s gokng to be worse than most other players.
Slight frame  
section125 : 3/18/2018 10:42 am : link
was debunked when he turned out taller and heavier than Darnold. (Eli is pretty doggone slender himself).

If the shoulder was so bad, how did he play all last season with plenty of arm strength?

Concussions - the great unknown. Hard to believe anybody that plays football has not had one (especially undiagnosed.)
If everything I read on this thread is true. Then Giants draft Barkley  
Blue21 : 3/18/2018 10:47 am : link
and stick with Webb.But Personally I have no idea.
Every prospect has a risk factor  
Jay on the Island : 3/18/2018 10:50 am : link
some might be safer than other's but that doesn't mean anyone is a sure thing. The only risk with Rosen is his injury history. If the team doctors have cleared his shoulder then he should be the pick. If any team discovered an issue with his shoulder it would have been leaked at the combine.
RE: Slight frame  
Eman11 : 3/18/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 13872431 section125 said:
Quote:
was debunked when he turned out taller and heavier than Darnold. (Eli is pretty doggone slender himself).

If the shoulder was so bad, how did he play all last season with plenty of arm strength?

Concussions - the great unknown. Hard to believe anybody that plays football has not had one (especially undiagnosed.)


Don't forget the knee and the fact he either didn't play in or finish 12 of his last 20 games at UCLA. That's huge for me and I just can't see going from iron man Eli to a guy with that history.

Without it, I'd have absolutely no problem with the Giants drafting him. None of the other things brought up about him scare me off of him but his injury history sure does. Big time.
RE: IF you remove the injury concerns...  
bigbluescot : 3/18/2018 10:56 am : link
In comment 13872385 Matt G said:
Quote:
Rosen is the clear cut best of the bunch, IMHO...

I don't get Darnold at all... Bad footwork, bad mechanics, doesn't have a big enough arm to compensate for the slow delivery, questionable decision making and struggles to hang onto the football... I'm sure there's plenty that I'm just not seeing, but IMHO, he's gonna be a mess at the next level...


I think a lot of the hype on Darnold is what happens when they roll him out, on the move he looks like the 2nd coming of Aaron Rodgers, but in the pocket I'm with you I just don't see it.
RE: RE: Slight frame  
section125 : 3/18/2018 11:00 am : link
In comment 13872450 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 13872431 section125 said:


Quote:


was debunked when he turned out taller and heavier than Darnold. (Eli is pretty doggone slender himself).

If the shoulder was so bad, how did he play all last season with plenty of arm strength?

Concussions - the great unknown. Hard to believe anybody that plays football has not had one (especially undiagnosed.)



Don't forget the knee and the fact he either didn't play in or finish 12 of his last 20 games at UCLA. That's huge for me and I just can't see going from iron man Eli to a guy with that history.

Without it, I'd have absolutely no problem with the Giants drafting him. None of the other things brought up about him scare me off of him but his injury history sure does. Big time.


Knee and shoulder are nothing. Concussion is something and the only thing as far as I am concerned. That an $2.79 gets you a tall at Starbucks.......
RE: RE: RE: Slight frame  
Eman11 : 3/18/2018 11:08 am : link
In comment 13872464 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13872450 Eman11 said:


Quote:


In comment 13872431 section125 said:


Quote:


was debunked when he turned out taller and heavier than Darnold. (Eli is pretty doggone slender himself).

If the shoulder was so bad, how did he play all last season with plenty of arm strength?

Concussions - the great unknown. Hard to believe anybody that plays football has not had one (especially undiagnosed.)



Don't forget the knee and the fact he either didn't play in or finish 12 of his last 20 games at UCLA. That's huge for me and I just can't see going from iron man Eli to a guy with that history.

Without it, I'd have absolutely no problem with the Giants drafting him. None of the other things brought up about him scare me off of him but his injury history sure does. Big time.



Knee and shoulder are nothing. Concussion is something and the only thing as far as I am concerned. That an $2.79 gets you a tall at Starbucks.......


The knee and shoulder might not have been major or as severe as concussions but they are "something" and just point to how he seems to miss time. It all adds to his injury history and who's to say they aren't susceptible to popping up again or easily injured again?
RE: I don't see a winner  
GoDeep13 : 3/18/2018 11:12 am : link
In comment 13872369 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
.
Thats a problem I have with Rosen as well. You see a good QB and you say “He’s a good QB because he elevated the talent around him.” Or “Without that guy this team may not win 2 games all season” I see that with Allen, Darnold (who I’m still not a big fan off), Jackson, and Mayfield. When Rosen is good it doesn’t seem to leak over to the rest of his teammates, he’s just good in his own bubble which becomes “does he inspire his teammates to play hard” questions.

QB is the leader of the troops on a football team. They don’t have to be demonstrative guys like a Cam, Winston, Drew Brees, or Brady. But they have to envoke confidence and trust in their teammates like a Peyton, Eli, Big Ben, Stafford. I didn’t see a team that was gonna run through a wall for Rosen.

Wyoming doesn’t win a game without Josh Allen. Everyone that talks to him comes back and says “I love this kid.”

USC isn’t USC the last two years without Darnold improvising and helping bring along young talent on that offense.

Louisville doesn’t explode on the national scene the way it has without Lamar Jackson carrying the load of the entire offense.

It’s what Ernie Accorsi saw with Eli. A guy that mad his team look a lot better than it was built to be. That’s what a franchise QB does.
RE: IF you remove the injury concerns...  
GoDeep13 : 3/18/2018 11:19 am : link
In comment 13872385 Matt G said:
Quote:
Rosen is the clear cut best of the bunch, IMHO...

I don't get Darnold at all... Bad footwork, bad mechanics, doesn't have a big enough arm to compensate for the slow delivery, questionable decision making and struggles to hang onto the football... I'm sure there's plenty that I'm just not seeing, but IMHO, he's gonna be a mess at the next level...


Yep. Darnold is the bust to me. I understand he’s a lot of people’s favorite (and this is really a “pick your flavor” kind of QB draft as there is a good prospect for every play style of QB) but I just don’t see him being successful in the NFL. My thing with Rosen is will he last? You can’t dismiss injuries when talking about the #2 pick in the draft. You need to get a lot out of that player. And for Rosen to be as injury prone as he is and as immobile as he is it makes it just a hard pick to get behind. Do I see the appeal? Yes. But imo it’s too much of a gamble.
Unless we trade w buffalo  
jtgiants : 3/18/2018 11:57 am : link
Who I've heard loves Rosen I think he drops big time in the draft. I don't like the player one bit. To me Darnold will be a star and Allen has all the tools. Rosen is Bradford 2.0 imo
I always say this  
jtgiants : 3/18/2018 12:00 pm : link
That's why we love the draft. Many on this thread don't like Darnold. I think he's a star in the making. I've detailed why before but to me its not close. My least favorite prospect is Rosen. Some here love him. Its an inexact science. No one knows you just have to be true to your convictions
RE: Unless we trade w buffalo  
Jay on the Island : 3/18/2018 12:02 pm : link
In comment 13872575 jtgiants said:
Quote:
Who I've heard loves Rosen I think he drops big time in the draft. I don't like the player one bit. To me Darnold will be a star and Allen has all the tools. Rosen is Bradford 2.0 imo

Rosen won't fall. I think he is the one the Jets are targeting at 3. Even if they did pass on him then Denver would select him as Keenum is a stopgap.
Rosen is the only QB in this draft ..  
firedbytheboss : 3/18/2018 12:19 pm : link
.. that can pile up points with dynamic streaks at the end of games a la Manning/Brady. He should be the Giants pick at 2.
RE: Rosen is the only QB in this draft ..  
bw in dc : 3/18/2018 12:22 pm : link
In comment 13872600 firedbytheboss said:
Quote:
.. that can pile up points with dynamic streaks at the end of games a la Manning/Brady. He should be the Giants pick at 2.


That's a very interesting point, so I am glad you have brought it back to the surface.

Rosen has show an immense ability to rally a team. It hasn't always led to Ws - too many times his D was swiss cheese - but UCLA was really never out of a game. And that is a direct result of having Rosen at QB....
Darnold  
Tim in VA : 3/18/2018 12:31 pm : link
I know some claim he has a high football IQ but I have the opposite take based on his interview questions about changing plays and presnap reads. Also in the games that I watched USC seemed to run to setup the pass very effectively, rather than leaning on Darnold to win. Not impressed in the least. Mayfield to me screams talent and winner, but I don't like his personality for New York. If we took him I'd be ok with it. Darnold or Rosen would be disappointing for me
Plus snaps under center  
Tim in VA : 3/18/2018 12:31 pm : link
Is an issue for Darnold and Mayfield
Rosen's poise under pressure impressed me last season  
Jay on the Island : 3/18/2018 12:41 pm : link
Rallying to come back down 34 with 2 minutes left in the 3rd quarter vs Texas A&M last season was incredible.
I could see this playing out....  
VegasRich : 3/18/2018 12:44 pm : link
And here comes Josh Rosen.... playing his first snap as a NYG. Yes it be in the 2nd half of the first pre-season game pf 2019, but the young lad needs to get his feet wet. First play handoff off RT and Michell gets 8 yards leaving 2nd and 2. Could this be another run. Nope, HC inserts a pass play as DEF is expecting run so a good time for Rosens first pass. Rosen drops back doesn't see his first option so he is going to check down to Michell but Sony slips on a Samsung remote left on the field and Rosen hesitates as he does not want to throw it away he then looks to see 3rd option heading down the RH sideline and sets up to launch this 37 yard pass and WHAM, BAM he gets Leonard Marshalled blindsided. His head looked like a bobblehead before it got smashed into the grass. Rosen is not moving...just like Montana. John Halopio missed the block on pass rusher and he Marshalled Rosen into the turf.

Moral of this scenario is can Rosen take a hit like this better than a Josh Allen Big Ben type. This scares me. It just takes a smack to the turf. Once your labeled with the concussions your labeled forever. t this point enter in the 'We should of taken Saquan, look what he's doing for hapless Browns. Or Bradley Chub had 4 sacks in 2 preseason games already.... And our Future replacement for ELI is lights out on the field not moving. Is this what we want. Its just a matter of time. Can this guy give us 10-15 years concussion free when he has had two already? Will he take the day route and drop out of football after his 2nd one with the NYG knowing his family is wealthy before football even began? How hungry is he. Id rather have the chip on shoulder Baker Mayfield than Rosen.

Do the right thing and trade this with Broncos and get their #1 this year, next year, and their #40 (2:8), and 71 (3rd) this year along with 2019 1st, and 2019 2nd and picks. Grab Bradley Chub DE or Q. Nelson OG at 5. if Nelson at OG than a Sony Michell or N Chub in R2 and go from their.

just my .02
The biggest flaw in his game is that he's a statue.  
Emlen'sGremlins : 3/18/2018 1:12 pm : link
The same hits that injured him in college for a couple of games will send him to IR when delivered by an NFL player.

Two big flaws on the field are immobility and lack of durability.
He doesn't need football to have a bright future  
xman : 3/18/2018 2:30 pm : link
probably no other draftee can say that. One concussion and he is moving on to bigger life challenges. He wants to fix the world . Football is a side show
Rosen is the best QB in the draft.  
Ed A. : 3/18/2018 3:30 pm : link
Darnold has too many turnovers for my liking. Mayfield looks good also despite his size. A true sleeper is Lautiel (sp) from Richmond.
That should be.....  
Ed A. : 3/18/2018 3:36 pm : link
Lauletta. My bad.
I  
AcidTest : 3/18/2018 3:53 pm : link
agree with everyone who says Rosen's injury history is too much of a risk at #2. He's the best player in the draft, but the injuries are preclusive. I certainly won't "throw the remote" if the Giants take him, but I'd prefer Barkely or a trade down.

As far as the other QBs, Allen is too inaccurate, and while I don't think Darnold will be a "mess," I am also concerned about his mechanics and propensity for fumbling.
Rosen’s Shoulder Injury info  
twostepgiants : 3/18/2018 5:21 pm : link
Rosen compared his shoulder injury, which occurred against Arizona State on Oct. 8, to a hamstring pull, as initially the doctors had a difficult time diagnosing the problem. Rosen was focused at first on rehabbing the injury so he could continue to play, but after a couple of weeks, it became clear he needed surgery. Even after coming to that conclusion, his doctors still weren't exactly sure what the issue was, and it wasn't until a diagnostic surgical procedure that they were able to identify a soft-tissue injury.

Rosen called it a "best-case scenario."
RE: RE: I don't see a winner  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/18/2018 5:34 pm : link
In comment 13872497 GoDeep13 said:
Quote:


It’s what Ernie Accorsi saw with Eli. A guy that mad his team look a lot better than it was built to be. That’s what a franchise QB does.


Let's not go crazy. Eli's career at ole miss was 7-4, 7-6, and 10-3. In the years before he took as over as starter they were a top 20 ranked bowl team for three straight years. Eli Manning didn't put the nowhere school on his back and uplift it to new territory.
Scary thing  
mrvax : 3/18/2018 6:48 pm : link
for me is listening to Dave Te's quarterbacks podcast. Did anyone hear what he said about Rosen & the locker room?

If you believe Dave, and I do, you can't draft this guy.
Back to the Corner