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Heard Paul Schwartz with Bob Papa this morning

joeinpa : 10:13 am
He said, the Jets are convinced Giants are not taking quarterback with the second pick, Schwartz seems to concur with that assessment.

Said Giants will be true to their board, and just doesn't believe they have any of the quarterbacks valued as the second best player in the draft

Believes Chubb is a distinct possibility or a trade down with Denver for Nelson



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RE: RE: RE: Webb's presence  
Bill L : 12:53 pm : link
In comment 13874206 NYG07 said:
Quote:
In comment 13874168 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


In comment 13874152 JonC said:


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figures to have little to do with the #2 overall pick.


How do you figure? If they like him as Eli's successor, it would be pretty silly to draft a QB



Yeah because Gettleman and Shurmur have so much film on Webb playing NFL games to go off of. He was a late 3rd round pick (by Jerry Reese no less) in what was deemed a down year QB class.

If he was a late 3rd round pick last year, where would he have been drafted this year?


Everybody has got an opinion and they are all different. So, you can pretty much find any evidence to support the view you have and say that's the truth. It's not; it's one truth of many.

With that caveat, this is, IMO, an interesting article. It's from before last year's draft.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: I'd be inclined to continue to groom Webb....  
Britt in VA : 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13874230 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13874227 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


my main concern about Webb, is that he was drafted and evanluated by Reese, Ross, and McAdoo, three people who are no longer part of the organization, and without a good track record drafting (especially in the third round).

But if the new coach and GM are on board, then by all means, keep grooming Webb for 2019/20.



Sure, groom him, but don't place your whole wager on him.


He was always a 2 or 3 year project pick. It's the people that picked him, and their ability to evaluate, that concern me the most.
RE: RE: RE: I'd be inclined to continue to groom Webb....  
JonC : 12:59 pm : link
In comment 13874233 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13874230 JonC said:


Quote:


In comment 13874227 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


my main concern about Webb, is that he was drafted and evanluated by Reese, Ross, and McAdoo, three people who are no longer part of the organization, and without a good track record drafting (especially in the third round).

But if the new coach and GM are on board, then by all means, keep grooming Webb for 2019/20.



Sure, groom him, but don't place your whole wager on him.



He was always a 2 or 3 year project pick. It's the people that picked him, and their ability to evaluate, that concern me the most.


No argument there, they haven't gotten close to being right on a QB in many years, and now the coach/staff are gone too.
People  
ryanmkeane : 12:59 pm : link
around here act like the Giants know absolutely nothing about Davis Webb. He hasn't played in a regular season NFL game. Neither has any of these QBs at the top of the draft. Also, Webb's character is pretty much unmatched. Dude lives and breathes football which is something they already know to be a fact about him.
Even a broken clock  
PEEJ : 1:00 pm : link
is right twice a day. :)
RE: People  
Britt in VA : 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13874242 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
around here act like the Giants know absolutely nothing about Davis Webb. He hasn't played in a regular season NFL game. Neither has any of these QBs at the top of the draft. Also, Webb's character is pretty much unmatched. Dude lives and breathes football which is something they already know to be a fact about him.


I like what I know of Davis Webb. The only problem is that it isn't much. I like the potential.
Wouldn't it be something if Davis Webb....  
Britt in VA : 1:02 pm : link
finally ends up being the pick that Reese got right?
RE: Wouldn't it be something if Davis Webb....  
NYG07 : 1:06 pm : link
In comment 13874255 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
finally ends up being the pick that Reese got right?


LOL it certainly would be something Britt. I do not even have to list Reese's third round picks on here. We all know.
Davis Webb lacks a huge component those prospects don't  
JonC : 1:06 pm : link
it's pedigree, consensus based on big program production and their respective projections to the NFL.

Again, it's not definitive but 32 teams decided Webb's pedigree was 3rd rounder, a historical hit-rate of 25%.

I'm not ok betting on him to take over the Giants, not remotely, it makes no sense to plan with that strategy at the team's blueprint core. Zero.
RE: Wouldn't it be something if Davis Webb....  
Tesla : 1:08 pm : link
In comment 13874255 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
finally ends up being the pick that Reese got right?


I'm still hoping that OBJ turns into a decent player.....but yeah it would be funny if Reese finally hit on a pick!
Jon  
ryanmkeane : 1:09 pm : link
every single draft pick in the NFL is a bet. If you have conviction on Webb then yes, it absolutely makes sense to bet on him. We all understand that Darnold, Rosen, and Allen were more highly rated prospects than Webb. But it's not like Webb was some late round flyer. He was highly rated as well. Some folks had him as a 2nd rounder with extremely high upside if he sat for a few years. I'm not sure I agree with your take.
He was a third round pick  
JonC : 1:11 pm : link
25% historical hit rate, an irresponsible bet if you live in the real world. Moving on ...
RE: RE: Wouldn't it be something if Davis Webb....  
Britt in VA : 1:11 pm : link
In comment 13874272 Tesla said:
Quote:
In comment 13874255 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


finally ends up being the pick that Reese got right?



I'm still hoping that OBJ turns into a decent player.....but yeah it would be funny if Reese finally hit on a pick!


I don't think we need to count the number of players left from Reese's past 10 years of drafting left on the current roster to stand by my point.
RE: RE: Wouldn't it be something if Davis Webb....  
JonC : 1:14 pm : link
In comment 13874272 Tesla said:
Quote:
In comment 13874255 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


finally ends up being the pick that Reese got right?



I'm still hoping that OBJ turns into a decent player.....but yeah it would be funny if Reese finally hit on a pick!


Britt was clearly talking about QBs ...
RE: Jon  
GoBlue6599 : 1:15 pm : link
In comment 13874275 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
every single draft pick in the NFL is a bet. If you have conviction on Webb then yes, it absolutely makes sense to bet on him. We all understand that Darnold, Rosen, and Allen were more highly rated prospects than Webb. But it's not like Webb was some late round flyer. He was highly rated as well. Some folks had him as a 2nd rounder with extremely high upside if he sat for a few years. I'm not sure I agree with your take.

Webb wasn't highly rated by anyone... Any Qb that is highly rated by anyone will be picked very early.. Tom Brady and Russel Wilson were surprises
RE: RE: Jon  
PatersonPlank : 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13874286 GoBlue6599 said:
Quote:
In comment 13874275 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


every single draft pick in the NFL is a bet. If you have conviction on Webb then yes, it absolutely makes sense to bet on him. We all understand that Darnold, Rosen, and Allen were more highly rated prospects than Webb. But it's not like Webb was some late round flyer. He was highly rated as well. Some folks had him as a 2nd rounder with extremely high upside if he sat for a few years. I'm not sure I agree with your take.


Webb wasn't highly rated by anyone... Any Qb that is highly rated by anyone will be picked very early.. Tom Brady and Russel Wilson were surprises


Thats not true, and there have been many examples posted on here that show that. You can want to draft a QB, thats fine, but lets not alter facts.
As  
AcidTest : 1:22 pm : link
I've said, my view is that none of the QBs are worth the #2 pick. That conclusion has nothing to do with Webb.

Webb has a lot of physical tools, and a relentless work ethic and drive to succeed. I wouldn't therefore be surprised if he became an excellent QB. A 25% success rate isn't a 0% success rate. But he has still a third round pick, despite all these attributes, and the chatter that he could be drafted in the first round.

We know nothing about Webb. The Giants know next to nothing.
More important than WHO they pick is HOW they pick  
Tom in Kzoo : 1:27 pm : link
The arguments for QB or no QB have merits on both sides, and on't be resolved for several years. While I have opinions, I think that's not the biggest issue.

It's what Eric alluded to earlier- the apparent predictability to others of what our choice is or is not to be.

I have no confidence in our track record in recent drafts at being unpredictable.

I have no confidence from Carolina drafts that DG yet has shown an ability to manipulate the draft, at least in early rounds.

He has shown a propensity to draft lineman, both offensive and defensive with reasonable success, but less so at other positions.

I agree this is a draft he must get right- but I'd add, less about the player, and more about fair value, or where he get's them, and what potentially he get's in return.

If he drafts Chubb at 2,he may show an ability to pick the right player, but not make the draft work for him.

And demonstrate we still cannot play the misinformation game-which would seem to be vital here.

Paterson  
ryanmkeane : 1:31 pm : link
I'm with you...it's funny that some folks here think that Webb is the equivalent to an undrafted free agent or even a late round flyer.

He was anywhere from a late 1 to round 3 prospect, who was the MVP of the senior bowl and has better arm talent than some of the QBs in this year's draft that people want to take at 2 overall.
RE: People  
Justlurking : 1:38 pm : link
In comment 13874242 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
around here act like the Giants know absolutely nothing about Davis Webb. He hasn't played in a regular season NFL game. Neither has any of these QBs at the top of the draft. Also, Webb's character is pretty much unmatched. Dude lives and breathes football which is something they already know to be a fact about him.


then you trade out of #2.
RE: Paterson  
NYG07 : 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13874317 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I'm with you...it's funny that some folks here think that Webb is the equivalent to an undrafted free agent or even a late round flyer.

He was anywhere from a late 1 to round 3 prospect, who was the MVP of the senior bowl and has better arm talent than some of the QBs in this year's draft that people want to take at 2 overall.


Better arm talent? Based on what? There are going to be 4 QBs taken in the first 5 picks of this draft. Webb was not even remotely in the conversation for a top 10 pick last year, by actual NFL evaluators.
RE: Until Webb demonstrates anything that dispels the notion  
lax counsel : 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13874228 JonC said:
Quote:
that isn't among the 75% of 3rd rounders that does nothing in the NFL, that is what he is.


Yay! An intelligent well reasoned comment. It's refreshing that someone is not comparing him with to Tom Brady or that he somehow had this transcendent experience that transformed him from a Jerry Reese late third rounder to a bona fide NFL star playing against guys who will be packing grocieries this season.

Is it so unreasonable that the Giants have no real idea what they have in in Webb, because of his lack of time last year and really have to depend on his college film, which objectively should not excite anyone.

Let's also clarify something with Tom Brady- and this in no way addresses his ability now- but when he was drafted, the patriots had a number on overall pick 29 year old qb who had been to multiple pro bowls and wasn't far removed from leading that team to a SB appearance. Why does this matter? Well, simply stated, the patriots had no intention of tom Brady comparisons ever touching the field in a meaningful way. The patriots had no idea what Brady was until the Bledsoe injury. It was a pleasant surprise not a realistic strategy the patriots had ever employed. So utilizing a later round pick as a way to find a franchise qb isn't really a compelling strategy.

I know, I've already reae that taking a qb in any round is risky, but ts been posted on this site before, the hit rate is far higher inside the top 5. Do you want to roll the dice on a 25% hit rate over a 60% hit rate. Unfortunately I heclikelihood is that Webb ends up a below average starter or a lip board holder. I'd love to be proven wrong by him, but the odds are against him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I hope that happens  
Greg from LI : 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13874110 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I'm cool with a trade down, but there has to be some sort of plan. How far back would you trade, and who would you want to take there?


Ideally, swap with Denver @ 5. One of Nelson or Fitzpatrick will probably be there, I'd imagine.
RE: The good news ...  
In comment 13874214 FanMan said:
Quote:
... is that whatever the direction the Giants are going in this draft, it remains unclear to everyone. Reese would have told everyone who he loves by now, and in doing so, give other teams time to execute a plan to steal him from us. At least it keeps all the rumors and speculation flying leading up to the draft - and may inflate the trade value of that pick.


It maybe subjective mrmory and observstion, but I don't recall anyone getting jumped in the draft more than Reese.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I hope that happens  
Britt in VA : 2:03 pm : link
In comment 13874349 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13874110 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I'm cool with a trade down, but there has to be some sort of plan. How far back would you trade, and who would you want to take there?



Ideally, swap with Denver @ 5. One of Nelson or Fitzpatrick will probably be there, I'd imagine.


1st round pick next year in the deal? I'm cool with that.
If giants want Barkley, Nelson or chubb  
nygiants16 : 2:14 pm : link
And view all 3 equally trade backs nd try to get as many picks as possible...

If you sit at 2 take the quarterback you like, no reason to take the positional players at 2...
RE: BTW.  
baadbill : 2:20 pm : link
In comment 13873728 AcidTest said:
Quote:
I'm not convinced of anything right now. We're still five weeks away. And that's the way it should be. Disinformation, not information.


If you WERE convinced, why would anyone conclude that was because of Information and not Disinformation?
no Barkley or QB  
SHO'NUFF : 2:22 pm : link
is an immediate remote tosser.

trade back will be a think about it remote tosser.
The Giants sent Shula and a full team of scouts to  
Tom in NY : 2:22 pm : link
Mayfield and Rosen's pro day workouts.
Darnold's and Allen's pro days are this week (Wed & Friday).
Odds are pretty strong that there will be a strong presence at both of these as well.

I can't see the Giants sending that big of a contingent to these workouts if they were going to go another direction.

Barkley & Chubb's workouts are this week as well. Let's see who/how many Giants reps are there.

Best bet for the Giants is to get Cleveland to believe they are going to take Barkley, and get them to trade up from 4 to 2....multiple 2nd picks would build the roster, and allow the Giants to pick one of Darnold/Rosen/Allen.
RE: I hate when GMs outsmart themselves  
baadbill : 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13873785 BestFeature said:

Quote:
I hate when GMs outsmart themselves


You're an expert on that, are ya?
RE: The Giants sent Shula and a full team of scouts to  
Tom in NY : 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13874419 Tom in NY said:
Quote:
Mayfield and Rosen's pro day workouts.
Darnold's and Allen's pro days are this week (Wed & Friday).
Odds are pretty strong that there will be a strong presence at both of these as well.

I can't see the Giants sending that big of a contingent to these workouts if they were going to go another direction.

Barkley & Chubb's workouts are this week as well. Let's see who/how many Giants reps are there.

Best bet for the Giants is to get Cleveland to believe they are going to take Barkley, and get them to trade up from 4 to 2....multiple 2nd picks would build the roster, and allow the Giants to pick one of Darnold/Rosen/Allen.


...meaning that IF Cleveland wants Barkley they need to come up to 2 to get him.
We should pull a AJ Smith on the Jets  
SHO'NUFF : 2:29 pm : link
get the QB they absolutely want and trade them for Barkley and a shitload of extra picks.
RE: RE: BTW.  
AcidTest : 2:46 pm : link
In comment 13874413 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13873728 AcidTest said:


Quote:


I'm not convinced of anything right now. We're still five weeks away. And that's the way it should be. Disinformation, not information.



If you WERE convinced, why would anyone conclude that was because of Information and not Disinformation?


Point taken.
RE: no Barkley or QB  
ryanmkeane : 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13874417 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
is an immediate remote tosser.

trade back will be a think about it remote tosser.

+1
RE: Hence  
In comment 13873830 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
my question last week about how would BBI react if the Giants took Chubb at #2.
Put remote through chipper, place remains in coal fired oven, cover ashes in molten lead and drop lead in deepest part of the Pacific Ocean, make Vodoo Doll of DG and stab repeatedly.
Chubb  
WillVAB : 3:09 pm : link
Is a very good/clean prospect. He would give the Giants the ability to move on from Vernon or JPP’s contract if they choose.

I’d rather trade down but I can see why they’d stick at 2 and take Chubb.
Heard it from a friend who...  
Milton : 4:15 pm : link
Heard it from a friend who heard it from another Big Blue ain't going QB
But I don't believe it, not for a minute.... - ( New Window )
Pat Kirwan...  
Strip-Sack : 4:48 pm : link
just said on Moving the Chains that he'd take Chubb at #2 if he were DG as of right now....said they're's a big gap for pass rushers after Chubb and there are plenty of good RB's.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Going all in on Eli at 37 is a mistake  
Jersey55 : 4:57 pm : link
In comment 13874210 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13874147 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




With all due respect, I think it's your rationalizing that everybody else is wrong and you are right that is fascinating.

All of the football people that have watched the tape seem to unanimously agree that he's still physically and mentally able.

Now, in two years? Future physical decline stuff? Okay, that's debatable. But it's not showing up on film yet and the opinions of people that matter (The Sentimentalists in Jints Central) concur.



I wouldn't quite characterize my thoughts as I'm right and Jints Central is wrong here. I'm just connecting dots on the circumstances - Eli's production has tailed off, he's in his late 30s, he isn't mobile, his arm isn't elite, and he appears to need too many high quality things around him to be effective.

Football people are wrong all the time. So this suggestion that non-football people should simply back off and not dispute them is absurd. Jerry Reese was a "football person" and his list of transgressions/poor decision making is profound...


what if Eli's problems are not all on the O line and that his crappy play the last few years is simply his normal decline as happens to all QBs even the great ones. Over looking whats going on with Eli will be a mistake we'll pay for long after this draft is over...
RE: Pat Kirwan...  
MojoEd : 5:01 pm : link
In comment 13874705 Strip-Sack said:
Quote:
just said on Moving the Chains that he'd take Chubb at #2 if he were DG as of right now....said they're's a big gap for pass rushers after Chubb and there are plenty of good RB's.


Would be reminiscent of Houston Texans 2006 draft, when they were criticized for passing on Reggie Bush and Vince Young in favor of Mario Williams. I remember thinking Casserly blew it at the time, but was quickly reminded that I am just a chuckle headed fan and the pros know more.
People argued for months about Bush vs. Williams.  
And plenty of Pros didn't notice that Trent Richardson wouldn't be able to adapt to the speed of the NFL and struggled to read his blocks.
I would love to move down to #5....  
Strip-Sack : 5:15 pm : link
but don't think I'd be upset if they pulled the trigger on Chubb the more I look into him.
Link - ( New Window )
Apparently the only flaws we should believe  
Bill L : 5:16 pm : link
Are those of non-QBs
RE: Pat Kirwan...  
bw in dc : 5:26 pm : link
In comment 13874705 Strip-Sack said:
Quote:
just said on Moving the Chains that he'd take Chubb at #2 if he were DG as of right now....said they're's a big gap for pass rushers after Chubb and there are plenty of good RB's.


I could live with this very reluctantly because pass rushers are in short supply. The QB is the best move, but this would have some logic to it.

And this is not as absurd as drafting Barkley or Nelson.
RE: RE: Pat Kirwan...  
Milton : 5:32 pm : link
In comment 13874755 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13874705 Strip-Sack said:


Quote:


just said on Moving the Chains that he'd take Chubb at #2 if he were DG as of right now....said they're's a big gap for pass rushers after Chubb and there are plenty of good RB's.



I could live with this very reluctantly because pass rushers are in short supply. The QB is the best move, but this would have some logic to it.

And this is not as absurd as drafting Barkley or Nelson.
If Rosen were to go #1 overall, Chubb and Mayfield would be the only others I would consider with the #2 pick, but trading down would probably be my favorite option at that point.
RE: RE: RE: Pat Kirwan...  
bw in dc : 5:37 pm : link
In comment 13874758 Milton said:
Quote:


If Rosen were to go #1 overall, Chubb and Mayfield would be the only others I would consider with the #2 pick, but trading down would probably be my favorite option at that point.


Agree (not on Mayfield) - then get the hell out of the 2 hole and find a buyer for that slot.

My sequence Rosen > Darnold > Trade Out or Chubb.



RE: RE: RE: RE: Pat Kirwan...  
Milton : 6:59 pm : link
In comment 13874762 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13874758 Milton said:


Quote:




If Rosen were to go #1 overall, Chubb and Mayfield would be the only others I would consider with the #2 pick, but trading down would probably be my favorite option at that point.



Agree (not on Mayfield) - then get the hell out of the 2 hole and find a buyer for that slot.

My sequence Rosen > Darnold > Trade Out or Chubb.


I was previously of that opinion, but I've warmed up to Mayfield, and Darnold's poor athletic testing at the combine was a major buzz-kill. It suggests a poor work ethic (because you gotta believe he's a better athlete than that). And while it may just be smoke, I read that he "wasn't as advanced on the whiteboard" as teams expected/hoped him to be. Meanwhile Mayfield has grown on me (no pun intended). I worry about his defensive personality (I can already envision clashes with the media) and his adjustment to throwing to receivers who aren't wide open, but I think he is "potentially" worth the gamble (I really haven't researched him enough to have a strong enough opinion one way or the other).
I think the Giants should draft Rosen  
Breeze_94 : 7:12 pm : link
and trade him. If the Jets want him, tell them to take Barkley and give us another draft pick (similar to what the Giants did by picking Phillip Rivers).

If they don't want to trade, then the Giants keep Rosen and he is the QB of the future. Of course this would only work if the Giants had a high grade on Rosen, which they should.
If we stay within the top four spots...  
Torrag : 7:17 pm : link
...it's Darnold/Rosen/Barkley/Nelson. In that order. Took a lot of research to arrive at this slotting and I doubt I'll change it again before the Draft.

The absolute least I'd take from Cleveland to move down to #4 overall is a swap our 5th Rounder this season for their 1st rounder next season. Otherwise I stand pat at #2.
Jets might be convinced  
Eman11 : 7:39 pm : link
The Giants are passing on a QB with the #2 pick but they can't be sure the Giants won't trade it to a team wanting a QB at 2.

They'd better be content to take whichever one is left at #3 or are prepared to ante up so they can swap places with the Giants.

I'm sure if they stay at 3 and take whoever is left they'll say that was the guy they wanted all along, but I can't believe they rate all of them the same. They must have an eye on one, maybe two guys and why I can't believe they made this trade to 3 without it being a jumping point to move up further.
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