we are going to have a new scheme with a better, and more creative DC. If we can't start getting home with some of these hits than I can more confidently point it to the players. But I suspect this team was just in chaos mode and we will be a lot better everywhere in 2018.
what's he underrated for? I don't recall many signature OV moments where he changed any game's outcome. He plays hard but he's overpaid compared to the numbers he puts up, unless you count hitting the QB after the ball is out, and then he's #3!!!!
Or overrated by some? When it comes down to it, he ne is being paid lots of money to make plays. Hurries and hits are nice but sometimes it’s not enough.
RE: I think Vernon is going to have a very good year Â
is like saying said catcher throws on target to second base every time with the runner sliding in safely. Great, he gets the ball there but nothing happens.
Great, OV hits the QB but isn't getting sacks.
Unless that stat can show how often the qb is throwing the ball away or is made to turn the ball over then hits on the qb mean nothing.
Hurries and hits are sometimes better than sacks Â
So rushing a bad pass or throwing it away don't count?
Apparently it didn't. They could not get off the field from day one last year. I don't recal too many bad passes being caused by Vernon last year. Nor by JPP for that matter. They had no pass rush at all.
I could see the attritional value of repeated hard hits on a QB, but does that stat count instances in which he merely touches the QB? When he keeps him up on his feet in order to avoid a roughing penalty? The pressures stat that everyone loved was the same way...poorly defined with an nebulous connection to results on the field.
RE: Hurries and hits are sometimes better than sacks Â
These are probably the same people who think that batting average is a significant stat in baseball...
So if a guy hits .350 a that isn’t good? Where as a guy who hits .220 is a good hitter???
Yeah that was a head scratcher for me. Let me know when a .300 batting average = shitty hitter.
Jury is out on Vernon. I am/was in the camp that thought his 2016 year was very strong despite the lack of sacks, partly because he was injury and partly because he was getting hits/hurries and playing well against the run. Then 2017 happened and I think its just hard to accurately assess what happened.
If he doesn't atleast give us his 2016 performance this season, he'll be a potential cut in a year.
Has become the second coming of JPP close but no cigar and now the injuries are starting to pile on. Most know I’m not a fan of FA because no mattter what they do it’s just never really value for 💴.
He played poorly last year and needs to get to the QBs more when he has the ball.
Define poorly? If you mean he wasn't amazing or terrific, fine. He wasn't poor.
We talk all the time about making plays when it matters most. That is what separates bad to good players. I am not saying Vernon is a poor by any means. But there were a lot of situations where we needed a stop or sack or whatever and I watched a QB sit in the pocket for 5-6-7-8 seconds and neither OV or JPP getting close to the QB.
I hope he does, but last year was a bad year for everyone including OV.
There are things people don't understand of Dline play Â
When you have no push up the middle, Pressure from DE can be avoided.. when you have crap LBs, there are many dump off opportunities available for the opposition QB.. and this doesn't even include the fact that both our DEs play 95% of the snaps when they are in games.. put all these things together and no DE will have success in our system..
Jerry really screwed this team over the last few years.. Now that we have LBs and the Qbs have to hold the ball the extra second, these hits will turn into sacks.. if we have dept at the DE position then these guys will be fresher to get there that fraction of a second earlier to result in sack rather than hit.. lets hope we get someone who can pressure up the middle but Tomlinson and Snacks aren't going to be difference maker there..
But batting average out of context is an empty stat. You try to make the comparison absurd by comparing a .220 hitter with a .350 hitter, but what about a .300ish slap hitter who doesn't walk versus a slugger who hits .250 but gets on base a ton and hits for power? You have a guy like Ichiro who put up seasons like .310/.361/.386 or .315/.359/.394, and his actual offensive production isn't as good as a Nick Swisher hitting .249/.371/.498 or a Curtis Granderson hitting .262/.354/.522.
I'm not ignoring the stupid fucking contract. I just don't give as many shits as you all do. I give a little shit, I don't think something that needs to be hyper focused on. And you know why I know this? Because I have seen "overpaid" players help my team win big.
Carry on.
RE: Can we think of a hurry as a single, a hit as a double Â
Forget this stupid crap about hurries or whatever. What do your eyes tell you when you watch Vernon play? I see a guy winning more battles than he's losing. I see a good player that can play great at times and plays one of the most important positions in the NFL. I see the Giants with a plus player.
These are probably the same people who think that batting average is a significant stat in baseball...
So if a guy hits .350 a that isn’t good? Where as a guy who hits .220 is a good hitter???
And what if that 220 hitter slugs 550 and has an OBP of 350+? And 350 is a singles hitter who never walks and has less runs scored/RBI than the 220 hitter? Which is better for their respective teams?
but if you saw a poor return from Vernon in 2016 you're either really fucking stupid or really fucking stubborn and just can't admit the guy can play. Vernon was just fine in 2016. He played a critical role on one of the best defenses in the NFL.
I see a player that can help this team play well. I know I know he makes a lot of money. I am shocked really. Still can't wrap my head around the fact that a 27 year old talented athlete fresh off FA makes a lot of money. It's just mind blowing. Hopefully the Giants franchise can stay afloat while paying Vernon all that loot.
Maybe we should have all the high paid Giants take a pay cut.
Does it mean the pass was completed or not? Or there is there no such stat?
Or does it mean the qb was just in the process of throwing the ball and then was legally hit, but you don't know the outcome of the throw as a stat....
if Vernon earned 2-3-4-5 million less? Would it REALLY make any difference?
He's still the same player. The money doesn't change what Vernon is. Even if you want to say he's just above average....that's still a good thing.
You build your roster with younger cheaper players and highly paid older players. Not every player will represent insanely good value. Some don't represent any real value at all. Some might even be dead weight. Some players might end up being labeled as overrated or overpaid but that same player is still helping the team win games, even if it's a lower value than the ideal player. That doesn't mean you need to bemoan the player's worth or bitch and moan on how much he earns. Look sometimes a player just crushes a team's financials...I won't sit here and dispute that. But at times, this money talK shit is an overstatement. That's just my take. Vernon isn't going anywhere so make peace with his salary. I'm sure the salary will be re-negotiated at some point, don't worry.
RE: Never thought I'd see the day when fans enjoy Â
watching the QB get hit AFTER the ball is released and caught by the receiver for a 30 yard gain.
Times sure have changed.
Yeah, when the Giants were knocking the smile and shit right out of Tony Romo during the 4th quarter of that 2007 playoff game, those hits didn't help at all. I think they sacked Romo ONCE that entire day. How many hits? Tell me that those hits didn't rattle Romo. Please I could use a good laugh.
These are probably the same people who think that batting average is a significant stat in baseball...
So if a guy hits .350 a that isn’t good? Where as a guy who hits .220 is a good hitter???
And what if that 220 hitter slugs 550 and has an OBP of 350+? And 350 is a singles hitter who never walks and has less runs scored/RBI than the 220 hitter? Which is better for their respective teams?
Thanks for proving my point...
You didn’t prove a point. You said hitting is an empty stat. Then you put your addidtional statistics into it. What if the guy hits .350 and has a slugging percentage of .789 - is his average empty then? Batting average is not an empty star whatsoever. It’s very useful. Just like sacks aren’t empty stats either. Their production stats. Hurries and hits are more empty stats due to the fact they do not definitively lead to negative plays. SAcks are negative plays.
RE: RE: Can we think of a hurry as a single, a hit as a double Â
Forget this stupid crap about hurries or whatever. What do your eyes tell you when you watch Vernon play? I see a guy winning more battles than he's losing. I see a good player that can play great at times and plays one of the most important positions in the NFL. I see the Giants with a plus player.
But that's just me.
Exactly. It's like some of these guys just wait for the season to end and check the sack totals to tell them how a player did. Vernon is a great player. Try watching him actually play if doubt me.
RE: RE: Never thought I'd see the day when fans enjoy Â
watching the QB get hit AFTER the ball is released and caught by the receiver for a 30 yard gain.
Times sure have changed.
Yeah, when the Giants were knocking the smile and shit right out of Tony Romo during the 4th quarter of that 2007 playoff game, those hits didn't help at all. I think they sacked Romo ONCE that entire day. How many hits? Tell me that those hits didn't rattle Romo. Please I could use a good laugh.
They also sacked opposing QB's 53 times that season. Last year? 27.
You didn’t prove a point. You said hitting is an empty stat. Then you put your addidtional statistics into it. What if the guy hits .350 and has a slugging percentage of .789 - is his average empty then? Batting average is not an empty star whatsoever. It’s very useful. Just like sacks aren’t empty stats either. Their production stats. Hurries and hits are more empty stats due to the fact they do not definitively lead to negative plays. SAcks are negative plays.
Holy crap. All I said was there are folks who believe batting average is a significant stat. I never said it was an empty stat.
BA - by itself - is not a significant stat. Just like a sack - by itself - is not a significant stat.
Or you could look at it as OV - just a step to slow to get to the QB when he's still holding the ball.
what's he underrated for? I don't recall many signature OV moments where he changed any game's outcome. He plays hard but he's overpaid compared to the numbers he puts up, unless you count hitting the QB after the ball is out, and then he's #3!!!!
Or overrated by some? When it comes down to it, he ne is being paid lots of money to make plays. Hurries and hits are nice but sometimes it’s not enough.
Why? He's only reached double digits (11.5) once in his six year career.
Vernon isn't underrated on BBI. He's rationalized. Last year it was "pressures". Now I guess it's "hits".
Great, OV hits the QB but isn't getting sacks.
Unless that stat can show how often the qb is throwing the ball away or is made to turn the ball over then hits on the qb mean nothing.
no, but it might actually help the defense get off the field on 3rd down, something that the Giants had great difficulty doing from Week 1 last year.
And are you seriously banking on INTs being a regular occurance?
Same song and dance Kwall performed for years to pump up JPP.
So rushing a bad pass or throwing it away don't count?
Quote:
..............
So rushing a bad pass or throwing it away don't count?
Apparently it didn't. They could not get off the field from day one last year. I don't recal too many bad passes being caused by Vernon last year. Nor by JPP for that matter. They had no pass rush at all.
So if a guy hits .350 a that isn’t good? Where as a guy who hits .220 is a good hitter???
This is what I'm talking about. Complete rationalization for a player who has been highly paid and underperformed since we signed him.
A hurry could also result in a touchdown. A sack can not.
It's funny...everyone is happy Reese is gone but we still see rationalizations for the results of his errors.
Quote:
A sack where the QB doesn't get stripped won't result in an INT. A hurry might.
This is what I'm talking about. Complete rationalization for a player who has been highly paid and underperformed since we signed him.
A hurry could also result in a touchdown. A sack can not.
It's funny...everyone is happy Reese is gone but we still see rationalizations for the results of his errors.
On point.
Quote:
These are probably the same people who think that batting average is a significant stat in baseball...
So if a guy hits .350 a that isn’t good? Where as a guy who hits .220 is a good hitter???
Yeah that was a head scratcher for me. Let me know when a .300 batting average = shitty hitter.
Jury is out on Vernon. I am/was in the camp that thought his 2016 year was very strong despite the lack of sacks, partly because he was injury and partly because he was getting hits/hurries and playing well against the run. Then 2017 happened and I think its just hard to accurately assess what happened.
If he doesn't atleast give us his 2016 performance this season, he'll be a potential cut in a year.
Define poorly? If you mean he wasn't amazing or terrific, fine. He wasn't poor.
Great!
But Vernon is still a very good all around edge player.
Ok go back the money...enjoy.
Rationalization.
+1
Quote:
He played poorly last year and needs to get to the QBs more when he has the ball.
Define poorly? If you mean he wasn't amazing or terrific, fine. He wasn't poor.
We talk all the time about making plays when it matters most. That is what separates bad to good players. I am not saying Vernon is a poor by any means. But there were a lot of situations where we needed a stop or sack or whatever and I watched a QB sit in the pocket for 5-6-7-8 seconds and neither OV or JPP getting close to the QB.
I hope he does, but last year was a bad year for everyone including OV.
Jerry really screwed this team over the last few years.. Now that we have LBs and the Qbs have to hold the ball the extra second, these hits will turn into sacks.. if we have dept at the DE position then these guys will be fresher to get there that fraction of a second earlier to result in sack rather than hit.. lets hope we get someone who can pressure up the middle but Tomlinson and Snacks aren't going to be difference maker there..
Rationalization.
I'm not ignoring the stupid fucking contract. I just don't give as many shits as you all do. I give a little shit, I don't think something that needs to be hyper focused on. And you know why I know this? Because I have seen "overpaid" players help my team win big.
Carry on.
Forget this stupid crap about hurries or whatever. What do your eyes tell you when you watch Vernon play? I see a guy winning more battles than he's losing. I see a good player that can play great at times and plays one of the most important positions in the NFL. I see the Giants with a plus player.
But that's just me.
Quote:
These are probably the same people who think that batting average is a significant stat in baseball...
So if a guy hits .350 a that isn’t good? Where as a guy who hits .220 is a good hitter???
And what if that 220 hitter slugs 550 and has an OBP of 350+? And 350 is a singles hitter who never walks and has less runs scored/RBI than the 220 hitter? Which is better for their respective teams?
Thanks for proving my point...
I see a player that can help this team play well. I know I know he makes a lot of money. I am shocked really. Still can't wrap my head around the fact that a 27 year old talented athlete fresh off FA makes a lot of money. It's just mind blowing. Hopefully the Giants franchise can stay afloat while paying Vernon all that loot.
Maybe we should have all the high paid Giants take a pay cut.
Times sure have changed.
Or does it mean the qb was just in the process of throwing the ball and then was legally hit, but you don't know the outcome of the throw as a stat....
He's still the same player. The money doesn't change what Vernon is. Even if you want to say he's just above average....that's still a good thing.
You build your roster with younger cheaper players and highly paid older players. Not every player will represent insanely good value. Some don't represent any real value at all. Some might even be dead weight. Some players might end up being labeled as overrated or overpaid but that same player is still helping the team win games, even if it's a lower value than the ideal player. That doesn't mean you need to bemoan the player's worth or bitch and moan on how much he earns. Look sometimes a player just crushes a team's financials...I won't sit here and dispute that. But at times, this money talK shit is an overstatement. That's just my take. Vernon isn't going anywhere so make peace with his salary. I'm sure the salary will be re-negotiated at some point, don't worry.
Times sure have changed.
Yeah, when the Giants were knocking the smile and shit right out of Tony Romo during the 4th quarter of that 2007 playoff game, those hits didn't help at all. I think they sacked Romo ONCE that entire day. How many hits? Tell me that those hits didn't rattle Romo. Please I could use a good laugh.
Cancel that Bradley Chubb visit
You want to keep your pass rushers somewhat fresh. McAdoofus had Vernon and even JPP on the field way too much.
I have hopes for Vernon in the 3-4. I expect a double-digit sack year with great run D.
Quote:
In comment 13873924 speedywheels said:
Quote:
These are probably the same people who think that batting average is a significant stat in baseball...
So if a guy hits .350 a that isn’t good? Where as a guy who hits .220 is a good hitter???
And what if that 220 hitter slugs 550 and has an OBP of 350+? And 350 is a singles hitter who never walks and has less runs scored/RBI than the 220 hitter? Which is better for their respective teams?
Thanks for proving my point...
You didn’t prove a point. You said hitting is an empty stat. Then you put your addidtional statistics into it. What if the guy hits .350 and has a slugging percentage of .789 - is his average empty then? Batting average is not an empty star whatsoever. It’s very useful. Just like sacks aren’t empty stats either. Their production stats. Hurries and hits are more empty stats due to the fact they do not definitively lead to negative plays. SAcks are negative plays.
Quote:
and a sack as a home run?
Forget this stupid crap about hurries or whatever. What do your eyes tell you when you watch Vernon play? I see a guy winning more battles than he's losing. I see a good player that can play great at times and plays one of the most important positions in the NFL. I see the Giants with a plus player.
But that's just me.
Exactly. It's like some of these guys just wait for the season to end and check the sack totals to tell them how a player did. Vernon is a great player. Try watching him actually play if doubt me.
Quote:
watching the QB get hit AFTER the ball is released and caught by the receiver for a 30 yard gain.
Times sure have changed.
Yeah, when the Giants were knocking the smile and shit right out of Tony Romo during the 4th quarter of that 2007 playoff game, those hits didn't help at all. I think they sacked Romo ONCE that entire day. How many hits? Tell me that those hits didn't rattle Romo. Please I could use a good laugh.
They also sacked opposing QB's 53 times that season. Last year? 27.
You didn’t prove a point. You said hitting is an empty stat. Then you put your addidtional statistics into it. What if the guy hits .350 and has a slugging percentage of .789 - is his average empty then? Batting average is not an empty star whatsoever. It’s very useful. Just like sacks aren’t empty stats either. Their production stats. Hurries and hits are more empty stats due to the fact they do not definitively lead to negative plays. SAcks are negative plays.
Holy crap. All I said was there are folks who believe batting average is a significant stat. I never said it was an empty stat.
BA - by itself - is not a significant stat. Just like a sack - by itself - is not a significant stat.