The positional emphasis on QB over any other position?
Or the individual rankings of Barkley or Nelson (pro bowl/all-pro level floors) vs. the highest rated QB?
In other words, how do you weigh the positional value of QBs vs the talent gap there seems to be between Barkley, Nelson, Fitzpatrick and Chubb and the highest rated QB? (which at this point in time if you asked 4 different people who the best QB is, you'd likely get 4 different answers)
Maybe "gap" is too strong a word but you get the point.
I see a theme developing on BBI that says "The Giants must go QB or it's malpractice, the dark ages are returning at QB, etc."
What about taking the next QB bust over a couple of all-pro level position players who all the scouts told you were going to be all-pro level players? Will the "must draft QB" people stand firm in that scenario? That the correct decision was made regardless?
We should acknowledge that there are a lot of ways to f up the draft. Forcing a QB is one of them.
One last question. How are we currently defining the Giants "need" at the QB position? I think we can all agree there's not an immediate need. The year after? Many will argue that they simply need to take the QB because "we won't be up this high again" but in the same breath claim that this is a long term rebuild and will suck again next season. It obviously can't be both of those.
Interested to hear more thoughts on this.
Then say you have Darnold or Rosen as a 8.0-8.4. In that scenario, you can take a QB.
Say you have Barkley and Nelson the same and your top QB is at a grade less than 8.0...take Barkley.
If the QB grade is just pretty good, then I would put an elite level playmaker like Barkley over that QB.
If you don't have that commitment, take the best player, or trade down.
We have Eli who is still pretty good, and a highly thought of prospect in Webb who has been in the org for a year and in my opinion, can be a great pro with a little more time. Webb has the things that are tough to measure when taking a QB. Work ethic, love of the game. Match that with his pure arm talent and the "want" to become great, I think it's a good decision to pass on a QB this year and take the all pro caliber RB.
Then say you have Darnold or Rosen as a 8.0-8.4. In that scenario, you can take a QB.
Say you have Barkley and Nelson the same and your top QB is at a grade less than 8.0...take Barkley.
I actually would take Larry Allen over those QBs.
We have Eli who is still pretty good, and a highly thought of prospect in Webb who has been in the org for a year and in my opinion, can be a great pro with a little more time. Webb has the things that are tough to measure when taking a QB. Work ethic, love of the game. Match that with his pure arm talent and the "want" to become great, I think it's a good decision to pass on a QB this year and take the all pro caliber RB.
Again, I don't understand this line of thinking. If you want to argue that it is impossible to determine where Eli is right now given how bad the talent around him was last year, ok. But Eli is still pretty good? Based on what we have seen the last two years, that is a very generous assessment. He was well below average in 2016 and was terrible last year.
I also do not understand your assessment of Webb. A highly thought of prospect? Is that why he fell to the bottom of the third round last year? Makes no sense. We have no idea what Webb is, but it is clear to me that you just want Barkley, which is fine.
Opportunities like this are rare.
For the Giants, the last 2 spot was LT.
Don't waste it.
Rosen is Mozart to Webb's Salieri! - ( New Window )
So you do your best to see who has the talent, drive and discipline to excel over a period of time.
If you think Barkley is the next Marshall Faulk, and you think one of the QBs is the next John Elway, so you have your choice of taking Faulk or John Elway, you take the QB. A HoF QB is more valuable, plays longer.
If you think you have your choice of "next Faulk" but you think the QBs need a lot of development and are more likely to be Blake Bortles or Ryan Tannehill than Elway or Aaron Rodgers, you take the RB.
If you think the RB is really going to be Edgerrin James, not Marhall Faulk, and you're not excited about the QBs when you're on the clock, you take another position or trade down.
A top QB is the most valuable and most difficult player to acquire. It's rare but with some luck it's not unheard of to get it them back to back (Bledsoe->Brady, Favre->Rodgers, Montana->Young). The Giants need great scouting and a lot of luck.
So you do your best to see who has the talent, drive and discipline to excel over a period of time.
If you think Barkley is the next Marshall Faulk, and you think one of the QBs is the next John Elway, so you have your choice of taking Faulk or John Elway, you take the QB. A HoF QB is more valuable, plays longer.
If you think you have your choice of "next Faulk" but you think the QBs need a lot of development and are more likely to be Blake Bortles or Ryan Tannehill than Elway or Aaron Rodgers, you take the RB.
If you think the RB is really going to be Edgerrin James, not Marhall Faulk, and you're not excited about the QBs when you're on the clock, you take another position or trade down.
A top QB is the most valuable and most difficult player to acquire. It's rare but with some luck it's not unheard of to get it them back to back (Bledsoe->Brady, Favre->Rodgers, Montana->Young). The Giants need great scouting and a lot of luck.
1) QB
2) Pass Rusher (DE)
3) LT
4) WR 1
5) L CB
6) DT
7) RB
8) Pass Rusher 2
9) MLB
10) TE
link - ( New Window )
1) QB
2) Pass Rusher (DE)
3) LT
4) WR 1
5) L CB
6) DT
7) RB
8) Pass Rusher 2
9) MLB
10) TE link - ( New Window )
Montana, that a really good link. Explains things perfectly.
Or best case scenario, Nelson is a perennial all pro.
Will they still believe it was the right thing to do when Webb turns out to be Kent Graham or best case Kerry Collins.
Just curious.
Quote:
Top 10
1) QB
2) Pass Rusher (DE)
3) LT
4) WR 1
5) L CB
6) DT
7) RB
8) Pass Rusher 2
9) MLB
10) TE link - ( New Window )
Montana, that a really good link. Explains things perfectly.
What stands out is that 4 out of the top 10 we completely unsuccessful in filling for a few years in a row
1) QB
2) Pass Rusher (DE)
3) LT
4) WR 1
5) L CB
6) DT
7) RB
8) Pass Rusher 2
9) MLB
10) TE link - ( New Window )
Good stuff. Surprised WR is that high considering how hard it is to cover them with the anti-defense rules. I'd have corner at #3 and LT at #4.
However, I am surprised that the majority on BBI have disregarded Webb and Shurmur’s ability to develop him as a total non-factor.
Just saying that if I have (an old) franchise QB and a roster I believe he can win with in the short term, and I also have a 3rd round prospect with talent, a reputation for a terrific work ethic and a head coach I just hired mainly because of his fantastic work with QBs, am I desperate at the position? It seems like I’m not without options if I feel I’m getting a better player elsewhere.
This is a tough spot to be in. I’ve said before Gettleman and Shurmur are in a tricky spot
That's really not what most QB advocates are saying. What I read most saying is to choose a QB provided there is conviction he'll be a long term, successful franchise QB.
If you don't believe that, and you are convinced there is more value in the RB Barkley, then pick Barkley. The salient point regarding QB, is that it is by far the most valuable position on the team.
As far as the 'need' question, most will agree QB is a need for the 10 to 15 years post Eli, which realistically could start in 2019 or 2020.
Really? How did Dallas’ offense fair with Zach Martin in the lineup at guard and Elliott suspended from playing RB? Unless the guard is Larry Allen 2.0, a quality RB bests a quality OG. Maybe a case could be made for a left tackle over a RB (I’d still rank a quality offensive player that touches the ball over one that doesn’t).
I have Rosen with a much higher grade than both Barkley and Nelson (who I believe are severely overrated);
Second of all, I have Rosen with a much higher grade than both Barkley and Nelson (who I believe are severely overrated), so I don't need to go down that hypothetical rabbit hole.
Your assessment differs from most.
1) QB
2) Pass Rusher (DE)
3) LT
4) WR 1
5) L CB
6) DT
7) RB
8) Pass Rusher 2
9) MLB
10) TE link - ( New Window )
I think that list is pretty close to reality. CB seems a bit low but I wouldn't argue the point that hard.