A friend of mine has an NFL QB coach as an acquaintance. This coach was entrusted to break down tape on the current crop of QB's , including
Darold, Rosen, Allen and Mayfield. He also did the same job of evaluating QB's last year.
My friend, a Giant fan, asked the QB coach if there was any significant difference between the top four and Davis Webb. He responded that he felt there was no significant difference between them and Davis Webb.
It seems to me that if Gettleman and the powers that be feel the same way anything is possible with the 2nd pick.
Again, I know that this is both anecdotal and second hand information. If true, it just adds to the speculation on what the Giants will do with second pick this year.
Quote:
If Webb was the prospect that these guys are, why was he a 3rd round pick when all of these guys are projected to go top 10, possibly top 5??
Why was Russell Wilson a 3rd round pick and not a top 5?
You completely missed the point. Why did Wilson fall to the 3rd round? He had certain flaws that teams didn't want. Obviously teams were wrong. What have you seen from Webb that tells you teams were wrong. Guy couldn't beat out Geno Smith.
Quote:
9th round. The draft is a crapshoot.
Man I hate that statement. People take one example and in this case from decades ago to try to create an argument that there is no probability difference of success for a player picked early or late...as if its completely random.
Because teams occasionally miss on guys, even QB's? Russell Wilson was a 3rd round pick, Kirk Cousins a 4th, Dak Prescott a 4th rounder, Case Keenum undrafted.
It happens. I have no idea if Webb will develop into a quality starter, but we knew when he was drafted that he was a project who needed work. Sometimes those projects work out, or else why even draft them?
Not sure how you could ever watch their game tape back-to-back and not notice the differences in footwork, throwing mechanics, anticipation throwing (the biggest contract), pocket presence, and mental processing.
Webb is also a completely different prospect than Darnold,Jackson, Baker - so I won't compare there.
Webb does compare somewhat to Allen for me, although he has a worse arm and overall athleticism.
Usually they're considered to be high draft picks.
It's also hard to judge a person's ability just by citing what pick he is. The number of teams desperate for a QB (or whatever), the overall strength of the draft, the overall strength of the position, the total number of players at the position, the overall strength of players at other positions, the overall numbers of players at other positions, the needs of teams at other positions, etc, etc, etc, will determine which specific pick is used on a player. And, it's not unheard for some flaw or trait or whatever to get attached to a player and cause him to fall.
You completely missed the point. Why did Wilson fall to the 3rd round? He had certain flaws that teams didn't want. Obviously teams were wrong. What have you seen from Webb that tells you teams were wrong. Guy couldn't beat out Geno Smith.
Can we stop with the "he couldn't beat out Geno Smith" BS? It is ridiculous. Geno was signed as a veteran backup because the staff did not want to go into the season with Webb as the only backup. When the season went south, and McAdoo was fighting for his job, who was he going to let play? A guy who had 2 years of starting experience, or a rookie who was bound to struggle?
Quote:
You completely missed the point. Why did Wilson fall to the 3rd round? He had certain flaws that teams didn't want. Obviously teams were wrong. What have you seen from Webb that tells you teams were wrong. Guy couldn't beat out Geno Smith.
Can we stop with the "he couldn't beat out Geno Smith" BS? It is ridiculous. Geno was signed as a veteran backup because the staff did not want to go into the season with Webb as the only backup. When the season went south, and McAdoo was fighting for his job, who was he going to let play? A guy who had 2 years of starting experience, or a rookie who was bound to struggle?
LOL.
I really want to see what he has. Sure, he was a third rounder, and a late third at that. Russell Wilson was a third rounder, he's amazing. Nick Foles was a third rounder and is a Super Bowl MVP, right? Kirk Cousins was a 4th rounder and everybody seems to want him.
Yes, there's a LOT more misses than hits in the third round, but Webb has some qualities that can translate into success in the NFL.
If he is at least as good as the quarterbacks at the top of this draft and you take a QB in the first anyway, you've cost yourself a Saquon Barkley needlessly.
If you take a QB in this draft, better be an absolute stud. Better than a Matt Ryan.
Well, by not playing Webb at all last year, because Eli's streak was so sacred and Mara got too rattled by the fan blow back, we are now stuck in this conundrum at the #2 slot.
So you still have to draft a QB. And if it ends up being - by some gift from the football gods - that you end up having two young, good, capable QBs, then good for us. The more QB assets, the better...
Ask Philly.
Quote:
Is a better physical prototype QB than Darnold, is more athletic than both Darnold and Rosen, threw for 4300 yards and 37 TDs his senior year.
I really want to see what he has. Sure, he was a third rounder, and a late third at that. Russell Wilson was a third rounder, he's amazing. Nick Foles was a third rounder and is a Super Bowl MVP, right? Kirk Cousins was a 4th rounder and everybody seems to want him.
Yes, there's a LOT more misses than hits in the third round, but Webb has some qualities that can translate into success in the NFL.
If he is at least as good as the quarterbacks at the top of this draft and you take a QB in the first anyway, you've cost yourself a Saquon Barkley needlessly.
If you take a QB in this draft, better be an absolute stud. Better than a Matt Ryan.
Well, by not playing Webb at all last year, because Eli's streak was so sacred and Mara got too rattled by the fan blow back, we are now stuck in this conundrum at the #2 slot.
So you still have to draft a QB. And if it ends up being - by some gift from the football gods - that you end up having two young, good, capable QBs, then good for us. The more QB assets, the better...
Ask Philly.
That's how I see it. Webb shouldn't prevent us from doing anything. If he ends up being good, good for us. It's another asset at the most important and most valuable position in all of sports.
Quote:
If Webb was the prospect that these guys are, why was he a 3rd round pick when all of these guys are projected to go top 10, possibly top 5??
To be fair, Webb was predicted to go about a round higher than he actually did. You have a lot of QB's being talked about early in the draft because many teams picking high need QB's. Akili Smith, Jake Locker, Christian Ponder, etc. were all Top 12 picks. Just because a QB is projected to go high doesn't mean he will be a success. I will say though that the generic succsess rate for a QB drafted high is better than one drafted lower, but you can say that for most positions. About the only positions that are different are P and K because to be worth the pick you need to be a generational talent or it is a waste
what you're saying is closer to if a team shocked everyone and took Luke Falk at the back of the first round, he flamed out, and then years later people were talking about not taking a late 1st rd QB due to Falk and Weeden.
Darnold: bad mechanics, fumble problems, stares down receivers.
Rosen: Gorgeous mechanics, and reads defenses at an advanced level. Good pocket presence, and nimble feet, but not a scrambler. Injury history that includes two recent concussions, and a slight frame.
Allen: Too inaccurate.
Webb was drafted where he should have been. The chatter last year about him being a first round pick was ridiculous. Webb played in a spread offense. 60-65% of his passes were within 10 yards of the LOS (70-75% for Falk BTW). Most of the rest of his passes were deep sideline "rail" throws. He made very few passes to the second and third levels, and consequently had almost no experience making the types of reads required at the NFL level. He also had no experience under center. What he had was a terrific arm, good mobility, great combine numbers, an insane work ethic, and an unquestioned love of football.
Webb was a classic Reese "project" pick. Most of those picks failed, which is why he was fired. Whether Webb can be the first Reese "project" pick to succeed is unknown.
With all that said, my choice would be Barkley. Love the way he plays. Plus a great character guy. From my seat at Met Life, I would love to see ground and pound football take the heart out of the opponent. Old school football dominating the game and then Eli and OBJ put the dagger in to finish them off.
Quote:
Webb clearly wasn't ready to be a starting QB in the NFL. So this guy(who signed up when, today) claims that his connection said that Webb is as good of a prospect as Rosen and Darnold, yet Webb was drafted in the 3rd round(there were plenty of teams that needed QB's so that's just silly), didn't look all that special in camp or preseason and didn't show the coaches anything during the season that would let them think he was ready to be a QB, yet a few months later he's as good as all of these guys about to go top 10. Ok then.
I don't know about Rosen, but almost everyone says that Darnold needs to sit and learn and isn't ready yet to be a starter.
Same goes for Allen and Mayfield most likely. Rosen is the only one that might be a Day 1 starter, and that shouldnt be a knock on the others, nor should it be a knock on Webb.
completely different world. scouting consisted of newspaper and magazine accounts.
just sayin'
Darnold: bad mechanics, fumble problems, stares down receivers.
Rosen: Gorgeous mechanics, and reads defenses at an advanced level. Good pocket presence, and nimble feet, but not a scrambler. Injury history that includes two recent concussions, and a slight frame.
Allen: Too inaccurate.
Webb was drafted where he should have been. The chatter last year about him being a first round pick was ridiculous. Webb played in a spread offense. 60-65% of his passes were within 10 yards of the LOS (70-75% for Falk BTW). Most of the rest of his passes were deep sideline "rail" throws. He made very few passes to the second and third levels, and consequently had almost no experience making the types of reads required at the NFL level. He also had no experience under center. What he had was a terrific arm, good mobility, great combine numbers, an insane work ethic, and an unquestioned love of football.
Webb was a classic Reese "project" pick. Most of those picks failed, which is why he was fired. Whether Webb can be the first Reese "project" pick to succeed is unknown.
So you're saying Rosen is a less durable Peyton Manning? Um, sign me up for Peyton Manning with more injuries in a fucking heartbeat.
Maybe you can clarity on that: is it that he thinks Webb should've been a top ten pick last year or that he thinks Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen all grade out as third round prospects in his book?
Quote:
Is a better physical prototype QB than Darnold, is more athletic than both Darnold and Rosen, threw for 4300 yards and 37 TDs his senior year.
I really want to see what he has. Sure, he was a third rounder, and a late third at that. Russell Wilson was a third rounder, he's amazing. Nick Foles was a third rounder and is a Super Bowl MVP, right? Kirk Cousins was a 4th rounder and everybody seems to want him.
Yes, there's a LOT more misses than hits in the third round, but Webb has some qualities that can translate into success in the NFL.
If he is at least as good as the quarterbacks at the top of this draft and you take a QB in the first anyway, you've cost yourself a Saquon Barkley needlessly.
If you take a QB in this draft, better be an absolute stud. Better than a Matt Ryan.
Well, by not playing Webb at all last year, because Eli's streak was so sacred and Mara got too rattled by the fan blow back, we are now stuck in this conundrum at the #2 slot.
So you still have to draft a QB. And if it ends up being - by some gift from the football gods - that you end up having two young, good, capable QBs, then good for us. The more QB assets, the better...
Ask Philly.
I’ll beat this drum all year long. We’d still be in this “conundrum” even if Webb played 2-3-4 games in 2017. I’ve said this 10 times over the last two weeks here and no one ever acknowledges it. Which means the truth is annoying to hear. It’s still the truth. Even if Webb played some in 2017 we wouldn’t know nearly enough today. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. Yes the giants handled the qbs awfully last year. But this still rings true.
Actually- if you want to go based on pre-draft projections Webb was a late first rounder. Many people had him ahead of Mahomes in their pre-draft evaluation.
Webb is going to be a star. If it's for the Giants or not I don't know.
LOL.
He was the 5th QB taken last year.
I’ll beat this drum all year long. We’d still be in this “conundrum” even if Webb played 2-3-4 games in 2017. I’ve said this 10 times over the last two weeks here and no one ever acknowledges it. Which means the truth is annoying to hear. It’s still the truth. Even if Webb played some in 2017 we wouldn’t know nearly enough today. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. Yes the giants handled the qbs awfully last year. But this still rings true.
I strongly disagree. If Webb played 3 full games and showed pocket awareness, mobility, good decision making, poise, etc - like he really belonged and was comfortable - that would change the narrative.
Jimmy G played about 3 full games for the Pats and it was pretty clear he had the goods. Not comparing player to player, but pointing all you can see quite a bit over a 3 game sample...
Put another way, if Webb was a complete, unmitigated disaster in those 3 games, do you think that accelerates the decision to go QB?
You can bet that if my friend sees him in the near future he better get more information out of him.
I don't know if he has that type of relationship with the coach to get a more detailed analysis. I hope this guy is well respected in within the community of coaches. If I hear anything more substantive BBI will be sure to get the info.
Quote:
In comment 13876090 Keith said:
Quote:
If Webb was the prospect that these guys are, why was he a 3rd round pick when all of these guys are projected to go top 10, possibly top 5??
Why was Russell Wilson a 3rd round pick and not a top 5?
You completely missed the point. Why did Wilson fall to the 3rd round? He had certain flaws that teams didn't want. Obviously teams were wrong. What have you seen from Webb that tells you teams were wrong. Guy couldn't beat out Geno Smith.
Maybe someone could explain something to me... everyone slams McAdoo for his coaching job last year. I don't see one person having any defense for him and it's pretty much universally accepted that he and almost every decision he made was the wrong one.
But when it comes to his decision to play Smith over Webb... it's used as proof as to why Webb can't possibly be Eli's successor.
Why is that?
Size, mobility, arm, accuracy, work ethic, coachability, football IQ, and his footwork even in preseason showed remarkable improvement
The only thing we don't know about Webb is if he can process everything happening on the field both pre and post snap, at the rate necessary to be successful at the NFL level. Depending on how fast he can process will determine if he is a bust, a star or somewhere in between. The problem is the Cal system was mostly a 1 read system, In the NFL the QB has no fewer than 3 pre and 3 post snap reads, and most plays more than that. It's a huge jump.
The only way to know if Webb is capable of making that jump, is for him to be in some real games. 3 games isn't enough, but it would have been far better than 0.
Now, consider the QBs in this 2018 draft class, do we know if they can process at an NFL level...
No... We don't. In that regards we know nothing more about them than we know about Webb. Perhaps Mayfield was in a more pro style offense and had some extra reads but in reality none of these guys were doing significantly more than Webb, and certainly nothing like what they need to do as Pros.
All of these guys have significant issues coming out.
Darnold - Mechanics, Sacks, Funbles
Rosen - Slight Frame, Injuries, apparently a poor locker room presense
Mayfield - Height, Off-Field, some say too improvisational, some question his arm
Allen - Mechanics, Accuracy, level of competition
Coming out Webb had questions too:
Mechanics - patted the ball, had a bit of a loop, footwork, taking snaps under center
Lack of experience - Didn't play in as many games as you would like because he was beaten out by Mahomes and Mayfield
From what I have seen of Webb in preseason, he seems to have addressed the mechanical items. Experience, blame the prior coaching staff...
So in fact, assessing Webb right now against the 2018 draft class QBs, we don't know if any of them can process fast enough. But we do know that Webb was able to improve and respond to coaching.
In other words, we know about the same about all of them.
"But we won't have another opportunity this good, ASJ."
You don't know that at all. Worst case scenario we have an All-Pro RB (or close to it), we can't get our QB in 2019, and Eli plays out his contract and we go for our guy in 2020.
Now, I'm saying all this but if the Giants take a QB at #2, I'm good with it and will fully support the pick...but it will still pain me to watch Saquon dominate on another team like the Browns, Broncos, or Colts.
Worst case scenario is definitely not an all-pro running back. Putting a potential injury aside, Reggie Bush was more hyped than Barkley and definitely more of a can’t-miss prospect. He was a solid pro but you can get backs like that long after the first round. And Bush was more successful than other top backs who busted. Worst case scenario is he’s Trent Richardson and Rosen or Allen lead teams that are playoff mainstays.
Quote:
if he falls into that much larger percentage group of unsuccessful NFL QBs drafted after the third round, then ok...we were playing Eli this year anyway, get the QB in 2019.
"But we won't have another opportunity this good, ASJ."
You don't know that at all. Worst case scenario we have an All-Pro RB (or close to it), we can't get our QB in 2019, and Eli plays out his contract and we go for our guy in 2020.
Now, I'm saying all this but if the Giants take a QB at #2, I'm good with it and will fully support the pick...but it will still pain me to watch Saquon dominate on another team like the Browns, Broncos, or Colts.
Worst case scenario is definitely not an all-pro running back. Putting a potential injury aside, Reggie Bush was more hyped than Barkley and definitely more of a can’t-miss prospect. He was a solid pro but you can get backs like that long after the first round. And Bush was more successful than other top backs who busted. Worst case scenario is he’s Trent Richardson and Rosen or Allen lead teams that are playoff mainstays.
This bullshit again. Once again, Reggie Bush has nothing to do with Saquon Barkley. Bush was not the prospect that Barkley was, period. There was a lot of hype about Bush, yes. That doesn't mean they are the same. Sometimes the hype is justified. LaDainian Tomlinson had a lot of hype, too, and is a lot closer to the kind of football player that Barkley is.
Barkley will never be Trent Richardson. If you think that's possible you don't have any input worth reading in any discussion around Barkley, you clearly haven't done your homework.
True, but Coach Shitwit seemed to have some irrational positive opinion of Geno Smith.
Quote:
Webb same as top 4 QBs in this draft coming out of college.
LOL.
He was the 5th QB taken last year.
In a class of project QBs and less than ideal prospects.
I strongly disagree. If Webb played 3 full games and showed pocket awareness, mobility, good decision making, poise, etc - like he really belonged and was comfortable - that would change the narrative.
Jimmy G played about 3 full games for the Pats and it was pretty clear he had the goods. Not comparing player to player, but pointing all you can see quite a bit over a 3 game sample...
Put another way, if Webb was a complete, unmitigated disaster in those 3 games, do you think that accelerates the decision to go QB?
Good post. I agree. Sure, Webb would have been playing behind a leaky OL, with WR's just off the street, but that still doesn't mean you can't make evaluations. Even if his stats suffered, you would have tape of him going through his progressions, calling out pass pro commands, how he handled pressure.
And yes, if his play screamed unmitigated disaster, that hastens the call to get another QB.
Quote:
In comment 13876098 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13876090 Keith said:
Quote:
If Webb was the prospect that these guys are, why was he a 3rd round pick when all of these guys are projected to go top 10, possibly top 5??
Why was Russell Wilson a 3rd round pick and not a top 5?
You completely missed the point. Why did Wilson fall to the 3rd round? He had certain flaws that teams didn't want. Obviously teams were wrong. What have you seen from Webb that tells you teams were wrong. Guy couldn't beat out Geno Smith.
Maybe someone could explain something to me... everyone slams McAdoo for his coaching job last year. I don't see one person having any defense for him and it's pretty much universally accepted that he and almost every decision he made was the wrong one.
But when it comes to his decision to play Smith over Webb... it's used as proof as to why Webb can't possibly be Eli's successor.
Why is that?
This is a very fair point. However, have you heard differently from anyone anywhere?
Quote:
In comment 13876123 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 13876098 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13876090 Keith said:
Quote:
If Webb was the prospect that these guys are, why was he a 3rd round pick when all of these guys are projected to go top 10, possibly top 5??
Why was Russell Wilson a 3rd round pick and not a top 5?
You completely missed the point. Why did Wilson fall to the 3rd round? He had certain flaws that teams didn't want. Obviously teams were wrong. What have you seen from Webb that tells you teams were wrong. Guy couldn't beat out Geno Smith.
Maybe someone could explain something to me... everyone slams McAdoo for his coaching job last year. I don't see one person having any defense for him and it's pretty much universally accepted that he and almost every decision he made was the wrong one.
But when it comes to his decision to play Smith over Webb... it's used as proof as to why Webb can't possibly be Eli's successor.
Why is that?
This is a very fair point. However, have you heard differently from anyone anywhere?
Sorry... not sure what you're referring to... heard what differently? About Webb not being able to overtake Smith? No I haven't... but because I haven't doesn't mean it should be assumed that he never was.
But let's just say he never was ready to overtake Smith last season. We all knew when Webb was drafted that he was a project that was going to have to take AT LEAST a year to be ready to play. So stating that Webb's inability to overtake Smith in his first season should be a factor in determining whether he can develop into Eli's successor doesn't make much sense to me.
Quote:
I’ll beat this drum all year long. We’d still be in this “conundrum” even if Webb played 2-3-4 games in 2017. I’ve said this 10 times over the last two weeks here and no one ever acknowledges it. Which means the truth is annoying to hear. It’s still the truth. Even if Webb played some in 2017 we wouldn’t know nearly enough today. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. Yes the giants handled the qbs awfully last year. But this still rings true.
I strongly disagree. If Webb played 3 full games and showed pocket awareness, mobility, good decision making, poise, etc - like he really belonged and was comfortable - that would change the narrative.
Jimmy G played about 3 full games for the Pats and it was pretty clear he had the goods. Not comparing player to player, but pointing all you can see quite a bit over a 3 game sample...
Put another way, if Webb was a complete, unmitigated disaster in those 3 games, do you think that accelerates the decision to go QB?
That's just it though, Webb was never going to show all that poise and talent in last year's NYG offense. IT was beyond broken. Even if he looked pretty good I wouldn't be comfortable hitching the wagon to Webb.
Last year was impossible. Nothing good was going to come from that offense.
That Webb was expected to sit and learn for a year.
But you still want to insist that because he never showed success last year that he cannot possibly be the guy, until he proves that h e is...
That makes no sense.
But OK... Some food for thought.
Since coming to the Giants Webb has:
Improved his footwork
learned to take snaps from under center
Improved his release
Showed tremendous work ethic
Showed that he has the overall football IQ to succeed
Shown he can go through more than 1 read
All of these traits were evident by the 4th preseason game against the Patriots.
Yes, he did well against scrubs...
We still don't know how he will fair faced with a real NFL pass rush, and a real NFL defensive scheme.
I am not saying that Webb will the answer, but we can't write him off yet either, just because the idiot prior regime didn't play him.
We know he has the arm, and decent mobility,