A friend of mine has an NFL QB coach as an acquaintance. This coach was entrusted to break down tape on the current crop of QB's , including
Darold, Rosen, Allen and Mayfield. He also did the same job of evaluating QB's last year.
My friend, a Giant fan, asked the QB coach if there was any significant difference between the top four and Davis Webb. He responded that he felt there was no significant difference between them and Davis Webb.
It seems to me that if Gettleman and the powers that be feel the same way anything is possible with the 2nd pick.
Again, I know that this is both anecdotal and second hand information. If true, it just adds to the speculation on what the Giants will do with second pick this year.
Either way, it is going to come down to value, because DG doesn't shop hungry.
Man I hate that statement. People take one example and in this case from decades ago to try to create an argument that there is no probability difference of success for a player picked early or late...as if its completely random.
I really want to see what he has. Sure, he was a third rounder, and a late third at that. Russell Wilson was a third rounder, he's amazing. Nick Foles was a third rounder and is a Super Bowl MVP, right? Kirk Cousins was a 4th rounder and everybody seems to want him.
Yes, there's a LOT more misses than hits in the third round, but Webb has some qualities that can translate into success in the NFL.
If he is at least as good as the quarterbacks at the top of this draft and you take a QB in the first anyway, you've cost yourself a Saquon Barkley needlessly.
If you take a QB in this draft, better be an absolute stud. Better than a Matt Ryan.
"But we won't have another opportunity this good, ASJ."
You don't know that at all. Worst case scenario we have an All-Pro RB (or close to it), we can't get our QB in 2019, and Eli plays out his contract and we go for our guy in 2020.
Now, I'm saying all this but if the Giants take a QB at #2, I'm good with it and will fully support the pick...but it will still pain me to watch Saquon dominate on another team like the Browns, Broncos, or Colts.
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9th round. The draft is a crapshoot.
Man I hate that statement. People take one example and in this case from decades ago to try to create an argument that there is no probability difference of success for a player picked early or late...as if its completely random.
With Ernie Accorsi in the building Johnny Unitas is all that gets discussed! In all seriousness, I get where the unnamed QB coach is coming from. Part of the reason that there is no consensus this year is that each of the top QB's in this draft has a flaw that is serious enough to cause the QB to bust. I want to be clear that I am not saying every QB this year will bust. Odds are that at least one of the top 3 QB's will turn into a playoff regular. I am just not sure which one it will be. We have a wild card in Davis Webb thanks to Ben McAdoo's inept personnel decisions. The fact remains we need upgrades up and down the roster. If no QB is an upgrade, do not force it.
I really want to see what he has. Sure, he was a third rounder, and a late third at that. Russell Wilson was a third rounder, he's amazing. Nick Foles was a third rounder and is a Super Bowl MVP, right? Kirk Cousins was a 4th rounder and everybody seems to want him.
Yes, there's a LOT more misses than hits in the third round, but Webb has some qualities that can translate into success in the NFL.
If he is at least as good as the quarterbacks at the top of this draft and you take a QB in the first anyway, you've cost yourself a Saquon Barkley needlessly.
If you take a QB in this draft, better be an absolute stud. Better than a Matt Ryan.
I'm in the Rosen camp, but I will say if the coaches and team are absolutely certain Webb can be at least as good as the guys in this class then I fully trust their judgement.
If that's the case, then that would be the best scenario too. But if you don't think Webb is at that level, don't miss out unnecessarily on a potential franchise QB too.
I think it all comes down to how the staff see Webb.
Too many people here equating the pick a QB vs not pick a QB is solely based on Davis Webb. The Giants seem to have made their decision based on Eli Manning. They seem to think he could still produce if we had an oline and running game. There are examples of how this thinking can be correct:
Denver Broncos- with Elway and with P. Manning. The three times the Broncos won the Super Bowl they were lead by aging QB's, great running games and solid defenses. The Giants may feel they have a chance to do something like this as well.
I think Davis Webb can be developed and having two more years for him to get acclimated to the NFL game will be a huge benefit.
Why was Russell Wilson a 3rd round pick and not a top 5?
To be fair, Webb was predicted to go about a round higher than he actually did. You have a lot of QB's being talked about early in the draft because many teams picking high need QB's. Akili Smith, Jake Locker, Christian Ponder, etc. were all Top 12 picks. Just because a QB is projected to go high doesn't mean he will be a success. I will say though that the generic succsess rate for a QB drafted high is better than one drafted lower, but you can say that for most positions. About the only positions that are different are P and K because to be worth the pick you need to be a generational talent or it is a waste
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If Webb was the prospect that these guys are, why was he a 3rd round pick when all of these guys are projected to go top 10, possibly top 5??
Why was Russell Wilson a 3rd round pick and not a top 5?
You completely missed the point. Why did Wilson fall to the 3rd round? He had certain flaws that teams didn't want. Obviously teams were wrong. What have you seen from Webb that tells you teams were wrong. Guy couldn't beat out Geno Smith.
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9th round. The draft is a crapshoot.
Man I hate that statement. People take one example and in this case from decades ago to try to create an argument that there is no probability difference of success for a player picked early or late...as if its completely random.
Because teams occasionally miss on guys, even QB's? Russell Wilson was a 3rd round pick, Kirk Cousins a 4th, Dak Prescott a 4th rounder, Case Keenum undrafted.
It happens. I have no idea if Webb will develop into a quality starter, but we knew when he was drafted that he was a project who needed work. Sometimes those projects work out, or else why even draft them?
Not sure how you could ever watch their game tape back-to-back and not notice the differences in footwork, throwing mechanics, anticipation throwing (the biggest contract), pocket presence, and mental processing.
Webb is also a completely different prospect than Darnold,Jackson, Baker - so I won't compare there.
Webb does compare somewhat to Allen for me, although he has a worse arm and overall athleticism.
Usually they're considered to be high draft picks.
It's also hard to judge a person's ability just by citing what pick he is. The number of teams desperate for a QB (or whatever), the overall strength of the draft, the overall strength of the position, the total number of players at the position, the overall strength of players at other positions, the overall numbers of players at other positions, the needs of teams at other positions, etc, etc, etc, will determine which specific pick is used on a player. And, it's not unheard for some flaw or trait or whatever to get attached to a player and cause him to fall.
You completely missed the point. Why did Wilson fall to the 3rd round? He had certain flaws that teams didn't want. Obviously teams were wrong. What have you seen from Webb that tells you teams were wrong. Guy couldn't beat out Geno Smith.
Can we stop with the "he couldn't beat out Geno Smith" BS? It is ridiculous. Geno was signed as a veteran backup because the staff did not want to go into the season with Webb as the only backup. When the season went south, and McAdoo was fighting for his job, who was he going to let play? A guy who had 2 years of starting experience, or a rookie who was bound to struggle?
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You completely missed the point. Why did Wilson fall to the 3rd round? He had certain flaws that teams didn't want. Obviously teams were wrong. What have you seen from Webb that tells you teams were wrong. Guy couldn't beat out Geno Smith.
Can we stop with the "he couldn't beat out Geno Smith" BS? It is ridiculous. Geno was signed as a veteran backup because the staff did not want to go into the season with Webb as the only backup. When the season went south, and McAdoo was fighting for his job, who was he going to let play? A guy who had 2 years of starting experience, or a rookie who was bound to struggle?
LOL.
I really want to see what he has. Sure, he was a third rounder, and a late third at that. Russell Wilson was a third rounder, he's amazing. Nick Foles was a third rounder and is a Super Bowl MVP, right? Kirk Cousins was a 4th rounder and everybody seems to want him.
Yes, there's a LOT more misses than hits in the third round, but Webb has some qualities that can translate into success in the NFL.
If he is at least as good as the quarterbacks at the top of this draft and you take a QB in the first anyway, you've cost yourself a Saquon Barkley needlessly.
If you take a QB in this draft, better be an absolute stud. Better than a Matt Ryan.
Well, by not playing Webb at all last year, because Eli's streak was so sacred and Mara got too rattled by the fan blow back, we are now stuck in this conundrum at the #2 slot.
So you still have to draft a QB. And if it ends up being - by some gift from the football gods - that you end up having two young, good, capable QBs, then good for us. The more QB assets, the better...
Ask Philly.
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Is a better physical prototype QB than Darnold, is more athletic than both Darnold and Rosen, threw for 4300 yards and 37 TDs his senior year.
I really want to see what he has. Sure, he was a third rounder, and a late third at that. Russell Wilson was a third rounder, he's amazing. Nick Foles was a third rounder and is a Super Bowl MVP, right? Kirk Cousins was a 4th rounder and everybody seems to want him.
Yes, there's a LOT more misses than hits in the third round, but Webb has some qualities that can translate into success in the NFL.
If he is at least as good as the quarterbacks at the top of this draft and you take a QB in the first anyway, you've cost yourself a Saquon Barkley needlessly.
If you take a QB in this draft, better be an absolute stud. Better than a Matt Ryan.
Well, by not playing Webb at all last year, because Eli's streak was so sacred and Mara got too rattled by the fan blow back, we are now stuck in this conundrum at the #2 slot.
So you still have to draft a QB. And if it ends up being - by some gift from the football gods - that you end up having two young, good, capable QBs, then good for us. The more QB assets, the better...
Ask Philly.
That's how I see it. Webb shouldn't prevent us from doing anything. If he ends up being good, good for us. It's another asset at the most important and most valuable position in all of sports.
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If Webb was the prospect that these guys are, why was he a 3rd round pick when all of these guys are projected to go top 10, possibly top 5??
To be fair, Webb was predicted to go about a round higher than he actually did. You have a lot of QB's being talked about early in the draft because many teams picking high need QB's. Akili Smith, Jake Locker, Christian Ponder, etc. were all Top 12 picks. Just because a QB is projected to go high doesn't mean he will be a success. I will say though that the generic succsess rate for a QB drafted high is better than one drafted lower, but you can say that for most positions. About the only positions that are different are P and K because to be worth the pick you need to be a generational talent or it is a waste
what you're saying is closer to if a team shocked everyone and took Luke Falk at the back of the first round, he flamed out, and then years later people were talking about not taking a late 1st rd QB due to Falk and Weeden.
Darnold: bad mechanics, fumble problems, stares down receivers.
Rosen: Gorgeous mechanics, and reads defenses at an advanced level. Good pocket presence, and nimble feet, but not a scrambler. Injury history that includes two recent concussions, and a slight frame.
Allen: Too inaccurate.
Webb was drafted where he should have been. The chatter last year about him being a first round pick was ridiculous. Webb played in a spread offense. 60-65% of his passes were within 10 yards of the LOS (70-75% for Falk BTW). Most of the rest of his passes were deep sideline "rail" throws. He made very few passes to the second and third levels, and consequently had almost no experience making the types of reads required at the NFL level. He also had no experience under center. What he had was a terrific arm, good mobility, great combine numbers, an insane work ethic, and an unquestioned love of football.
Webb was a classic Reese "project" pick. Most of those picks failed, which is why he was fired. Whether Webb can be the first Reese "project" pick to succeed is unknown.
With all that said, my choice would be Barkley. Love the way he plays. Plus a great character guy. From my seat at Met Life, I would love to see ground and pound football take the heart out of the opponent. Old school football dominating the game and then Eli and OBJ put the dagger in to finish them off.
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Webb clearly wasn't ready to be a starting QB in the NFL. So this guy(who signed up when, today) claims that his connection said that Webb is as good of a prospect as Rosen and Darnold, yet Webb was drafted in the 3rd round(there were plenty of teams that needed QB's so that's just silly), didn't look all that special in camp or preseason and didn't show the coaches anything during the season that would let them think he was ready to be a QB, yet a few months later he's as good as all of these guys about to go top 10. Ok then.
I don't know about Rosen, but almost everyone says that Darnold needs to sit and learn and isn't ready yet to be a starter.
Same goes for Allen and Mayfield most likely. Rosen is the only one that might be a Day 1 starter, and that shouldnt be a knock on the others, nor should it be a knock on Webb.
completely different world. scouting consisted of newspaper and magazine accounts.
just sayin'
Darnold: bad mechanics, fumble problems, stares down receivers.
Rosen: Gorgeous mechanics, and reads defenses at an advanced level. Good pocket presence, and nimble feet, but not a scrambler. Injury history that includes two recent concussions, and a slight frame.
Allen: Too inaccurate.
Webb was drafted where he should have been. The chatter last year about him being a first round pick was ridiculous. Webb played in a spread offense. 60-65% of his passes were within 10 yards of the LOS (70-75% for Falk BTW). Most of the rest of his passes were deep sideline "rail" throws. He made very few passes to the second and third levels, and consequently had almost no experience making the types of reads required at the NFL level. He also had no experience under center. What he had was a terrific arm, good mobility, great combine numbers, an insane work ethic, and an unquestioned love of football.
Webb was a classic Reese "project" pick. Most of those picks failed, which is why he was fired. Whether Webb can be the first Reese "project" pick to succeed is unknown.
So you're saying Rosen is a less durable Peyton Manning? Um, sign me up for Peyton Manning with more injuries in a fucking heartbeat.
Maybe you can clarity on that: is it that he thinks Webb should've been a top ten pick last year or that he thinks Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen all grade out as third round prospects in his book?
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Is a better physical prototype QB than Darnold, is more athletic than both Darnold and Rosen, threw for 4300 yards and 37 TDs his senior year.
I really want to see what he has. Sure, he was a third rounder, and a late third at that. Russell Wilson was a third rounder, he's amazing. Nick Foles was a third rounder and is a Super Bowl MVP, right? Kirk Cousins was a 4th rounder and everybody seems to want him.
Yes, there's a LOT more misses than hits in the third round, but Webb has some qualities that can translate into success in the NFL.
If he is at least as good as the quarterbacks at the top of this draft and you take a QB in the first anyway, you've cost yourself a Saquon Barkley needlessly.
If you take a QB in this draft, better be an absolute stud. Better than a Matt Ryan.
Well, by not playing Webb at all last year, because Eli's streak was so sacred and Mara got too rattled by the fan blow back, we are now stuck in this conundrum at the #2 slot.
So you still have to draft a QB. And if it ends up being - by some gift from the football gods - that you end up having two young, good, capable QBs, then good for us. The more QB assets, the better...
Ask Philly.
I’ll beat this drum all year long. We’d still be in this “conundrum” even if Webb played 2-3-4 games in 2017. I’ve said this 10 times over the last two weeks here and no one ever acknowledges it. Which means the truth is annoying to hear. It’s still the truth. Even if Webb played some in 2017 we wouldn’t know nearly enough today. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. Yes the giants handled the qbs awfully last year. But this still rings true.
Actually- if you want to go based on pre-draft projections Webb was a late first rounder. Many people had him ahead of Mahomes in their pre-draft evaluation.
Webb is going to be a star. If it's for the Giants or not I don't know.
LOL.
He was the 5th QB taken last year.
I’ll beat this drum all year long. We’d still be in this “conundrum” even if Webb played 2-3-4 games in 2017. I’ve said this 10 times over the last two weeks here and no one ever acknowledges it. Which means the truth is annoying to hear. It’s still the truth. Even if Webb played some in 2017 we wouldn’t know nearly enough today. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. Yes the giants handled the qbs awfully last year. But this still rings true.
I strongly disagree. If Webb played 3 full games and showed pocket awareness, mobility, good decision making, poise, etc - like he really belonged and was comfortable - that would change the narrative.
Jimmy G played about 3 full games for the Pats and it was pretty clear he had the goods. Not comparing player to player, but pointing all you can see quite a bit over a 3 game sample...
Put another way, if Webb was a complete, unmitigated disaster in those 3 games, do you think that accelerates the decision to go QB?
You can bet that if my friend sees him in the near future he better get more information out of him.
I don't know if he has that type of relationship with the coach to get a more detailed analysis. I hope this guy is well respected in within the community of coaches. If I hear anything more substantive BBI will be sure to get the info.