Of all the interviews I've heard Gettleman on, this is the one I have heard the most.
While I have always and will always be in the "Never say never" camp when it comes to someone offering a trade for a player or picks, I do think the idea of trading down gets a tad overrated at times.
This time of year, there are hundreds of prospects that give the notion of hope and repair to a broken team. NYG was as broken as any team in the league last year and while some holes have been plugged, there are still several leaks. Knowing that, the idea of trading down and getting multiple picks falsely leads many to believe that all if these issues will be covered in a single draft.
However if you truly look at draft classes, every single one of them...the 96-100 players taken in rounds 1-3...most of them are not in the league making an impact 4-5 years later. Go ahead...take a look. It is true.
More picks DOES increase your odds of having a draft class like the Saints did last year, absolutely. But odds that will not happen. Some of the best draft minds in the league miss on more prospects than they hit on. But many of you do not realize that in the moment because right now, you have lists and lists of prospects that can be THE guy. They benefit from the unknown.
This brings me back to Gettleman and his approach with the #2 pick. Whether it is a QB or Barkley, the offer has to be overly substantial to move down, especially if it is the Bills and that #12 pick. That is a far drop in comparison to who you can have at #2. Gettleman understands that "getting too cute"...trying to manipulate the draft and hoping your guy falls to this spot and that team takes this guy...it may put them in a very unfavorable position. Extra picks are nice...but they are very far from guaranteed.
What draws me to BUF is potential 2019 1st, as they may very well end up being one of the worst 5 teams in football. That pick next year may be VERY valuable.
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In comment 13877329 Capt. Don said:
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I wonder how he would fit in Bettcher's scheme.
Yes, he is. But he's also a terrific talent.
So is Saquan Barkley but I dont think I would draft him #2 overall if I ran a run and shoot offense.
I am sure he would be really good in any scheme but would his talents be best utilized in what we will run?
Barkley is such an all around talent, he'll fit into any scheme. Even Reese/McAdoo would have been hard pressed to mis-utilize him in their bizarro 2 Elis-WCO-multiple JPPs hot mess scheme.
You can just write the script...Barkley will have some spectacular moments, will be up some gaudy stats here and there, may make a few Pro Bowls, etc. And maybe we'll be a solid .500 team...
But we won't get over the hump because teams will start stacking the box and making Barkley's life miserable. Oh, sure - he'll beat it once in a while, but not enough. Because when we pushed all the chips into the middle of the table on Webb, the hope was he would the guy.
But Webb just doesn't seem to get it. He's inconsistent from week to week, can't make key third down conversions, over throws too much, etc, etc. For crissakes, it's like watching Kent Graham all over again...
And the conversations will center on the obvious - we don't have the right trigger man. Why didn't we draft Rosen instead? Or Allen?
Oh, and guess what else? The other RBs from the Barkley draft are pretty good too - Johnson, Michel, Jones, etc.
They are putting up some excellent numbers...
But let's be optimistic. We have the 16th pick again! Maybe we can get one of these good Gs and that will make Barkley's life easier!
Well then anyone who works, coaches, or scouts for the NFL must be pretty stupid too.
The rumored Bills offer (I understand the source is trash) is two firsts, two seconds and a third. As an exercise, look at our last picks in those rounds, oddly enough they kind of line up where those picks would be. That's Eli Apple, Sterling Sheppard, Evan Engram, Dalvin Tomlinson and Davis Webb. You don't take that haul for one player? Good, bad and unknown in that group, but I take it in a heartbeat unless there's a franchise QB sitting at our pick.
Chubb would be the BIGGEST disappointment in a pick at #2 for me. I just don't see his value there based on the $ we already are spending at that position and the supposed move to a hybrid 3-4....
Eli has 2 good years left. Webb is an unknown but it's possible he could be our future. Without a run game and improved OL, Rosen or whoever will face the same problems we have faced over the past years. If Webb steps in, he doesn't have to do it all. He'll have a strong run game to setup an easier pass game. Hedge your bets with a later round QB if you want, this year and/or next year. I think this strategy is better for us. Just my 2 cents
I remember when Clowney was drafted that many people were high on one of his defensive line mates, a DT I believe, and now I can't remember that guy's name because he did nothing in the NFL. When it comes to a guy like Nelson or a guy like Chubb it should be a consideration that they both had a lot of talent around them.
I argue with others when they say that so and so would probably be a lot better with better talent next to them. I don't buy it, but then again I can admit that I don't always understand the big picture of what teams are trying to accomplish on every play. With the QB's everyone is talking about how many drops their receivers committed so I find it difficult to evaluate prospects who might look better or worse because of the fact that this is a team sport.
I am no scout, but I do know that Nelson has McGlinchey next to him so he likely was freed up to take on another defender or help the Center. MM probably didn't need much help.... And when it comes to Chubb I am aware that his three other defensive line mates will all likely be drafted with one of the DTs, I think his name is Hill, is slated to go in the 2nd round.
When it comes to Barkley, I don't believe that PSU has a great passing game and I know that people say their OL sucks. I believe that with a better supporting cast he could really blossom in the NFL. I believe that the best is yet to come.
You can just write the script...Barkley will have some spectacular moments, will be up some gaudy stats here and there, may make a few Pro Bowls, etc. And maybe we'll be a solid .500 team...
But we won't get over the hump because teams will start stacking the box and making Barkley's life miserable. Oh, sure - he'll beat it once in a while, but not enough. Because when we pushed all the chips into the middle of the table on Webb, the hope was he would the guy.
But Webb just doesn't seem to get it. He's inconsistent from week to week, can't make key third down conversions, over throws too much, etc, etc. For crissakes, it's like watching Kent Graham all over again...
And the conversations will center on the obvious - we don't have the right trigger man. Why didn't we draft Rosen instead? Or Allen?
Oh, and guess what else? The other RBs from the Barkley draft are pretty good too - Johnson, Michel, Jones, etc.
They are putting up some excellent numbers...
But let's be optimistic. We have the 16th pick again! Maybe we can get one of these good Gs and that will make Barkley's life easier!
I still think we go QB. Why is it that it appears that the Bills, Jets, Browns, Broncos and possibly other teams think these QB's are good enough to draft? I'm just not buying that the Giants dont. I think this is them making sure nobody knows their intentions, but I just don't see how all the QB hungry teams are fighting to move to the top of the draft for a QB, but the Giants don't think any fit the bill.
If he has grades on them that would put them in mid- to late-1st round territory in other drafts, then not taking the QB now makes more sense. So what matters is what kind of grade does he have on them?
If Papa, King, Schwartz, etc. are correct, it suggests they simply don't have the same grade on these quarterbacks as other teams - right or wrong.
Now if they do have an extremely high grade on one or two of them, and pass on that guy, I would be very disappointed because teams rarely have the opportunity to nab a franchise QB without giving away the store.
The Giants love him and they don't get a reasonable trade offer for pick #2.
In the past, one could read a fair amount into what the Giants were thinking given what they were doing with pro days etc. Again because this a new regime (which doesn't want to look at all like the old one) one doesn't want to read too much into this stuff until we see a trend. At the same time, though, its basically all the evidence we have to date.
And so far, the Giants have almost totally passed on Barkley. They sent only the DB coach to his pro day. One could interpret that as maybe trying to hide their interest, but what was weird is that almost nobody sent anybody to the PSU pro day to see Barkley. There were no head coaches there, there were no RB coaches at all so much so that Barkley who had intended to do positional drills sat out the whole business. In addition, it does not appear as if Barkley has any private workouts or even visits scheduled so far. And that's just weird!
At the same time, the Giants sent a pretty big contingent to the Rosen and Mayfield pro days including QB coach Mike Shula. They also had another big group at a private workout for Rosen yesterday and will have the same group at both Darnold's pro day and a private workout later today. That same group will then go to a private workout with Mayfield and Allen's pro day at Wyoming later in the week.
Again one never wants to dismiss the possibility that this is one 'giant' smoke screen, although its not really what teams do, but the evidence we have suggests that what the Giants are seriously looking at are the QBs. The fact also is that NFL teams generally don't really spend a lot of time at this time of the year scouting out players they don't already have a pretty good grade on.
if we are using the #2 to work with Eli that is 100% a disaster scenario...eli has 1 maybe 2 more years. Taking barkley is fine but it needs to be under the assumption the Giants have believe in Webb.
You don't take Barkley to help Eli because he is a good play action passer. That would be so short sighted.
If he has grades on them that would put them in mid- to late-1st round territory in other drafts, then not taking the QB now makes more sense. So what matters is what kind of grade does he have on them?
If Papa, King, Schwartz, etc. are correct, it suggests they simply don't have the same grade on these quarterbacks as other teams - right or wrong.
Now if they do have an extremely high grade on one or two of them, and pass on that guy, I would be very disappointed because teams rarely have the opportunity to nab a franchise QB without giving away the store.
If NYG trades out of the pick, I guarantee you they may be in the same spot as Buffalo next year- frantically trying to trade up to nab a QB.
This says it all. Thanks Sy.
But but but WCO is bright and shiny and a lot of other teams is running it!
Eli throws a good deep ball, best at the intermediate balls (absolutely beautiful throws like Manningham pass in SB) and is the worst at short passes and reads. Derp let's bring in the WCO!
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and what I said aligns with your point that more picks does not = more wins.
The Browns collected a lot of picks of the last couple of years and that got then a winless season. Why? Because they do not have a franchise QB. That is the most important position on the field. More than a RB or a pass rusher. If people here doubt that, all you need to do is look at the leagues top salaries and see how many RBs or pass rushers are paid more than the top QBs in this league.
I also mentioned that while L Bell is considered possibly the best RB in the game, the Steelers scored as many points per game without him as they did with him because they had a QB who could run the offense regardless.
So, getting picks from the Bills is a nice idea but what is the point? In a year or two when you NEED that next QB where will we be selecting? We probably will have to deal just as many (if not more) picks back to get to the top of the draft to select a top QB in what MAY also be a thin QB class.... and unwilling teams to trade with because they may want the guy as well.
If we do not select our QB with this pick, in a year or two we will be giving up way too much, or we will be just another one of those average teams with an average QB that is destined to just have an average season with no shot at a championship.
You aren't wrong with any of that.
But you HAVE to be convinced one of the quarterbacks is THE guy. You can't take one just because...
Yes I agree with not taking a guy "just because". That should be something you never to at any position and at any point in the draft. However, this is a deep QB class and if you cannot find someone that you like in this bunch then I am not sure what they would be looking for. You have about 4 -5 guys who have varying skill sets with varying strengths/weaknesses. That PERFECT QB may never be there for them to even select.
So, we could end up with Kent Graham in two years.
If Papa, King, Schwartz, etc. are correct, it suggests they simply don't have the same grade on these quarterbacks as other teams - right or wrong.
That would be conjecture. They know nothing. All speculation and I have to say that we should kill Papa and the other two for suggesting that just like we would kill someone like Ranaan or Gary Myers for doing the same thing.
so if anything -- the extra attention being paid to the QBs is indicative of just how many questions surround those guys
It means nothing. Stop looking for smoke signals. The reality is this. The guy blew away everyone at the combine. What would you expect to see in a workout this week that would be different?
You have all you need to know about the guy. You are better off sending people to look at guys who are 2nd 3rd round opportunities. Those are harder to figure out and may need another look.
yeah I mentioned him at least once but not as it relates to Webb. Just that we could end up with a JAG at QB in a couple of years and Graham was a good example.
You can wind up with Peyton Manning, or Jamarcus Russell.
We know
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In comment 13877287 EricJ said:
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and what I said aligns with your point that more picks does not = more wins.
The Browns collected a lot of picks of the last couple of years and that got then a winless season. Why? Because they do not have a franchise QB. That is the most important position on the field. More than a RB or a pass rusher. If people here doubt that, all you need to do is look at the leagues top salaries and see how many RBs or pass rushers are paid more than the top QBs in this league.
I also mentioned that while L Bell is considered possibly the best RB in the game, the Steelers scored as many points per game without him as they did with him because they had a QB who could run the offense regardless.
So, getting picks from the Bills is a nice idea but what is the point? In a year or two when you NEED that next QB where will we be selecting? We probably will have to deal just as many (if not more) picks back to get to the top of the draft to select a top QB in what MAY also be a thin QB class.... and unwilling teams to trade with because they may want the guy as well.
If we do not select our QB with this pick, in a year or two we will be giving up way too much, or we will be just another one of those average teams with an average QB that is destined to just have an average season with no shot at a championship.
You aren't wrong with any of that.
But you HAVE to be convinced one of the quarterbacks is THE guy. You can't take one just because...
Yes I agree with not taking a guy "just because". That should be something you never to at any position and at any point in the draft. However, this is a deep QB class and if you cannot find someone that you like in this bunch then I am not sure what they would be looking for. You have about 4 -5 guys who have varying skill sets with varying strengths/weaknesses. That PERFECT QB may never be there for them to even select.
So, we could end up with Kent Graham in two years.
that was after they thought Dave Brown was "the guy" and gave up their # 1 in 1993 to take him in the supplemental draft.
You can wind up with Peyton Manning, or Jamarcus Russell.
We know
Or Ryan Leaf..
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absolutely all-important consideration here is what does Gettleman actually think about the quarterbacks in this draft?
If he has grades on them that would put them in mid- to late-1st round territory in other drafts, then not taking the QB now makes more sense. So what matters is what kind of grade does he have on them?
If Papa, King, Schwartz, etc. are correct, it suggests they simply don't have the same grade on these quarterbacks as other teams - right or wrong.
Now if they do have an extremely high grade on one or two of them, and pass on that guy, I would be very disappointed because teams rarely have the opportunity to nab a franchise QB without giving away the store.
If NYG trades out of the pick, I guarantee you they may be in the same spot as Buffalo next year- frantically trying to trade up to nab a QB.
Not really going out on a limb there are you? Guaranteeing they "may be"?
I dont get what exactly you're saying or guaranteeing. Saying they "may be" kind of cancels out the guarantee, no?
I don’t think the Giants will make up their minds on their board for at least another 2-3 weeks.
You can wind up with Peyton Manning, or Jamarcus Russell.
We know
I agree and disagree on some of these. The Jamarcus Russell's, Akili Smith, David Klingler's etc were one year or two year tops, unique offense types without any real substantial PRO style work. They ran up gawdy numbers in non competitive or non defensive games.
Ryan Leaf was a tough one because he played in a good conference and put up good numbers. Nobody could really get inside his head and see his wiring wasn't designed to handle the stress and expectations of being a high draft pick in the NFL.
Right now the 4 QB's coming out (at the top) all have pluses and minuses. Rosen's are health and potential "commitment". Mayfield's is more attitude and off the field, along with height and the offense he played in. Allen is lower level comp %, offense he played in and winning %. Darnold is a turnover machine and has not played a ton of CFB. However there do not appear to be any J.Rissells, Smith's or Klinglers here.
Pretty sure he had a knee injury as well. Maybe not a major one but one worth looking into,IMO.
My biggest concern is he seems to get injured easily or at least too often for my liking. I can't imagine that gets better on the Pro level.
What nobody can dispute is that the Giants are all in right now checking out the QBs and in fact they are the only players that the Giants appear to be seriously checking out. And as a general rule the guys that NFL teams are seriously checking out barely a month from the draft are guys that they already have a good grade on those guys. That's all we can really say at this time.
I haven't watched a bunch of UCLA's games but I've read articles saying he either didn't play in or didn't finish 12 of his last 20 games at UCLA.
That's a big red flag and a major concern for me. Especially potentially going from an every snap every game Eli, to him. I know I don't want to be holding my breath every time he drops back to pass.
What nobody can dispute is that the Giants are all in right now checking out the QBs and in fact they are the only players that the Giants appear to be seriously checking out. And as a general rule the guys that NFL teams are seriously checking out barely a month from the draft are guys that they already have a good grade on those guys. That's all we can really say at this time.
Thoughts on the QB's Colin. The top 4 guys, what order do you have them in right now? Not where they will be picked but how you rank the 4 QB's.
Well then anyone who works, coaches, or scouts for the NFL must be pretty stupid too.
It's the value of the pick - not Barkley as a prospect. At the #2 slot, which Jints Central has, it is not good value to take a RB. RBs grow on trees. They are everywhere, practically every year. So it's not financially practical to spend #2 slot dollars on a commodity.
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because I'm really starting to believe Jints Central is stupid enough to take Barkley.
Well then anyone who works, coaches, or scouts for the NFL must be pretty stupid too.
A lot of teams honestly are very stupid.
"Stupid" is strong term.
Thrill will rephrase. A lot of the GMs and head coaches are extremely egotistical and their hubris creates an unbelievable amount of bias and backward thinking. Traditionalism.
Every team will rightfully have a top-5 grade on Barkley. He's awesome.
Smart teams, however, will recognize the opportunity cost of picking a running back so high. In the case of NYG, that means potentially forfeiting a long-term solution at QB. Or turning down a transformative package of picks from Cleveland or Denver to drop down to 4th or 5th.
We can forgive Gettleman and Jints Central if Darnold was their only QB and Cleveland picked him. Taking Barkley instead of making a similar deal to the Jets-Colts (presuming such an offer exists, of course)? It would be an egregiously short-sighted uneconomical backward-thinking reductionist populist move.
Chasing a win-now window that doesn't actually exist. Coming off a 13-loss season.
Thrilly Mays Hayes doesn't always agree with Bw Webb in DC, but the Mssr. bw painted a good picture of what life with Barkley would look like. He'd be routinely awesome and yet we'd be wondering why NYG isn't winning more games.
Nevermind all the data about the shorter lifespans of RBs (based on the brutality of the position) and the economics of the position itself (high supply of talent).
Saquon Barkley would have to be historically great and have historically great longevity to justify the opportunity cost of picking him at #2. But a lot of GMs would be foolish enough to pull the triggers because ...hey highlights.