I don't claim to have any insights as to whether any of the QBs are worthy of the #2 pick, nor do I claim to be a mind reader of posters on BBI. But I do wonder how much the resistance here to picking a QB is related to the extraordinary loyalty some posters have to Eli.
Taking a QB would say Eli needs to be replaced, and puts an end date to his tenure at likely 2 seasons or less. I'd suggest some people have a hard time dealing with that.
Again, I'm no authority on draft talent. But I'd say if one of the QBs is a legit high pick, it would be managerial malpractice to not take him if the rationale is at all about forestalling the end of Eli's time as a Giant.
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Posts. Many die hard eli fans like myself have proclaimed the giants should take a QB at two. So to take shots at posters here seems unwarranted.
Please show me the language that "takes shots" at anyone? I'm speculating on how some posters sentiments toward Eli are impacting their views about picking a QB at #2.
I think for some BBIers, NYG fans etc. - your premise is absolutely on point.
Accidents will happen.I don't care who they take as long as the player becomes a great Giant. Just don't blow the pick.
It has been that way for a long time.
You have been here 6 months.... that isn’t a long time.
Picking a QB that won't succeed isn't a winning strategy. Pros spend 24/360 doing this and still get it wrong about 40-50% of the time. And yet many on BBI assume that all of the top four QBs are going to be great...
Mara should remember the post Simms days. Brown, Kanell, Graham, Maddox, etc. Hopefully the Browns will make it easy for the Giants and select Allen 1st overall.
Exactly.
And with Solder now on the left side, I anticipate Eli being less skittish in the pocket. Just that alone will improve his play. I honestly believe that.
Now that guy now on the right side.............
If we go Barley at # 2, then we have a three headed offensive nightmare for the 11 men on the defensive side of the field and graying hairs for the D-Coordinators.
Like Aaron Rodgers behind Brett Favre, if Webb is that good and still sits behind Eli for possibly two years, then it's a good thing, really.
I do not think it has to do with Eli, his aura, his fan love, or anything else but his ability to run the offense on the field successfully.
This argument continues to make zero sense to me. In what world is a late third round pick in a bad QB class close to the same prospect as 4 guys who are going to get drafted in the top 6 of a rich QB class? There was a reason nobody took Webb until the end of the third round, yet teams are desperately trying to move up into the top 5 to grab these QBs.
Who is saying that Webb is an equal prospect to any of these top 4 QBs? You?
This sums up the entire Eli Manning debate, for me.
Cap hit really isn't an issue, nor is Webb's potential.
I am OK taking Barkley, Chubb, or Nelson at #2, but would prefer a small trade down to get a few extra picks. But I doubt that happens. My guess is that the Giants stay at #2 and take Barkley. As others have noted, he can line up in the slot, and that helps alleviate the fact that after OBJ and SS we have a lot of unknowns at WR.
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He is reputed to be as good or close to as good as what will be available in the draft. If DG and PS think they have what they need in Davis Webb, why waste a draft pick on a QB of similar abilities. Draft a player that conceivably could immediately add to the consternation of every prospective Defensive Coordinator we face.
If we go Barley at # 2, then we have a three headed offensive nightmare for the 11 men on the defensive side of the field and graying hairs for the D-Coordinators.
Like Aaron Rodgers behind Brett Favre, if Webb is that good and still sits behind Eli for possibly two years, then it's a good thing, really.
I do not think it has to do with Eli, his aura, his fan love, or anything else but his ability to run the offense on the field successfully.
This argument continues to make zero sense to me. In what world is a late third round pick in a bad QB class close to the same prospect as 4 guys who are going to get drafted in the top 6 of a rich QB class? There was a reason nobody took Webb until the end of the third round, yet teams are desperately trying to move up into the top 5 to grab these QBs.
Who is saying that Webb is an equal prospect to any of these top 4 QBs? You?
If DG with PS agree that the top four QBs in this year's draft is necessary and whatever smoke and mirrors are presented, the Commissioner will let us know their true intent on April 26 not too far into the show.
I have personally read that here on a thread or two with actual statistics (which still doesn't prove anything), and I trust Sy56 here.
If DG with PS agree that the top four QBs in this year's draft is necessary and whatever smoke and mirrors are presented, the Commissioner will let us know their true intent on April 26 not too far into the show.
Sy never said that Webb was equal to the top 4 QB's.
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In comment 13878425 Aloha Alan said:
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He is reputed to be as good or close to as good as what will be available in the draft. If DG and PS think they have what they need in Davis Webb, why waste a draft pick on a QB of similar abilities. Draft a player that conceivably could immediately add to the consternation of every prospective Defensive Coordinator we face.
If we go Barley at # 2, then we have a three headed offensive nightmare for the 11 men on the defensive side of the field and graying hairs for the D-Coordinators.
Like Aaron Rodgers behind Brett Favre, if Webb is that good and still sits behind Eli for possibly two years, then it's a good thing, really.
I do not think it has to do with Eli, his aura, his fan love, or anything else but his ability to run the offense on the field successfully.
This argument continues to make zero sense to me. In what world is a late third round pick in a bad QB class close to the same prospect as 4 guys who are going to get drafted in the top 6 of a rich QB class? There was a reason nobody took Webb until the end of the third round, yet teams are desperately trying to move up into the top 5 to grab these QBs.
Who is saying that Webb is an equal prospect to any of these top 4 QBs? You?
I have personally read that here on a thread or two with actual statistics (which still doesn't prove anything), and I trust Sy56 here.
If DG with PS agree that the top four QBs in this year's draft is necessary and whatever smoke and mirrors are presented, the Commissioner will let us know their true intent on April 26 not too far into the show.
Sy has already said that all of these top 4 QBs are better prospects than Webb was coming out...
It's about what -brand of football- one enjoys watching ....and thinking about what sorts of players we could use to that end if we had 4 picks before the end of second round plus the 3-7 usuals.
Run the ball at will and use play action. And completely wreck the other teams l.o.s. always.
If DG goes QB, the question then becomes what truly was his order and did he get his man?
If DG goes QB, the question then becomes what truly was his order and did he get his man?
Where are you reading all this garbage? If they aren't worth of the #2 pick why did the Jets trade up to 3 and why is Buffalo talking to the Browns and Giants about moving up?
If DG goes QB, the question then becomes what truly was his order and did he get his man?
Well there you have it. From what you have read on the internet none of them are worth it. That explains why teams and actual NFL evaluators are tripping over themselves to trade up into the top 5 to get these guys. Yet even the Giants themselves passed twice on Webb last year.
1) Darnold - Bad throwing motion, doesn't protect the ball well.
2) Rosen - Frequently injured/concussion history
3) Allen - Weak number in a sub par division. Poor accuracy
4) Mayfield - My favorite of the bunch if I had a choice, but his temper I do not think will mesh well in NYC or with 0BJ.
I like the kid from Richmond a bit but is he any different than Webb?
I like Chubb but is he a fit for the 3-4?
I like Barkley but there are other RBs I like that we can have probably in the 3rd round like Rashaad Penny.
I do not like Nelson. I do not see what others see. I do not see a top 5 pick.
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When you haven’t had to worry about a QB in over 14 yrs. you forget how tough it is to find one. You don’t mess around when you have the chance to get the next one.
Mara should remember the post Simms days. Brown, Kanell, Graham, Maddox, etc. Hopefully the Browns will make it easy for the Giants and select Allen 1st overall.
I think Mara and Gettleman know you have to get the QB now. Not get cute
Any teams calling the Giants asking about trading for Webb? If he’s such a good prospect, why aren’t they? If he’s as good as the guys at top of the draft. Why aren’t teams like the Cards or Bills asking about him?
1) Darnold - Bad throwing motion, doesn't protect the ball well.
2) Rosen - Frequently injured/concussion history
3) Allen - Weak number in a sub par division. Poor accuracy
4) Mayfield - My favorite of the bunch if I had a choice, but his temper I do not think will mesh well in NYC or with 0BJ.
I like the kid from Richmond a bit but is he any different than Webb?
I like Chubb but is he a fit for the 3-4?
I like Barkley but there are other RBs I like that we can have probably in the 3rd round like Rashaad Penny.
I do not like Nelson. I do not see what others see. I do not see a top 5 pick.
i bet you have trouble deciding what to order at a restaurant.
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Eli and Webb. To them, those 2 might as well be dead.
Any teams calling the Giants asking about trading for Webb? If he’s such a good prospect, why aren’t they? If he’s as good as the guys at top of the draft. Why aren’t teams like the Cards or Bills asking about him?
A better question is why didn't we have him ahead of Geno in the depth chart all season?
I am not convinced by any of these QBs...
I would add to what Mark said about Rosen, and this concerns me more than the injuries is that I have seen reports that he has shown a lack the effort. That he was often late for meetings, and has an abrasive personality. That is not who I want in this locker room.
When I look at the QBs in this draft (and I will include Lauletta and Falk here), it smells to me like 4 busts, 2 clipboard holders, 1 decent but nothing special (think Flacco), and 1 guy who will light up the league. And I don't know who is who.
It just seems like a huge risk with the #2 pick.
I could be completely wrong about these guys, and I understand people who look at them differently. If the Giants really like one at #2, I'm all for getting him.
If nobody really stands out at #2, you can get better by going in a different direction at #2. Personally I would not take an RB or a G at #2 no matter how good they are.
If you don't think that there is a QB at #2 you like and you choose to trade down, I greatly prefer getting picks in future years so that we have the capital to go get a QB then if we need somebody. I don't like trading back to 12 in this draft, but in a trade with the Bills, I would start with both their #1s this year and #1 in 2019 and #1 in 2020, and I would still want more...
At the end of the day its all tough decisions that have to be made by people who get paid a lot of money to make these decisions.
My guy is Mayfield, but all the QBs have ????. If there were 2 likely sure picks, I'm OK with whomever is not the other guy. At the moment SD appears the Cleveland pick, so do the Giants have a favorite of the other 4?.
If so, take him.
However, I'm also of the trade out school if the QBs do not excite them, to use the added picks to try to fill holes this draft, and hopefully additional '19 picks.
What QB coming out of college doesn't have questions? Even Eli did and still does.
Obviously Aaron Rodgers had questions or he would not have lasted until the back third of the first round.
What the hell is everyone looking for?
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He is reputed to be as good or close to as good as what will be available in the draft. If DG and PS think they have what they need in Davis Webb, why waste a draft pick on a QB of similar abilities. Draft a player that conceivably could immediately add to the consternation of every prospective Defensive Coordinator we face.
If we go Barley at # 2, then we have a three headed offensive nightmare for the 11 men on the defensive side of the field and graying hairs for the D-Coordinators.
Like Aaron Rodgers behind Brett Favre, if Webb is that good and still sits behind Eli for possibly two years, then it's a good thing, really.
I do not think it has to do with Eli, his aura, his fan love, or anything else but his ability to run the offense on the field successfully.
Exactly - everyone who claims the Giants have to draft a QB has basically dismissed Webb completely, and has already concluded that PS/DG have determined him not suitable as next-in-line guy for Eli.
The equalizer is what they have seen - they have seen tape on Webb, just like Rosen and Darnold
Its not about Eli at all, he's the aging vet holding the seat for 1 or 2 more years until someone else is ready. Its more about the Giants perception and belief in Webb.
But go back and take a look at Aaron Rogers' scouting reports...
Nobody doubted his accuracy, or mechanics, attitude or his football IQ.
The doubts on him centered around size, arm strength (most said it was good enough but not overwhelming), and the system he came out of at Cal (which also produced Davis Webb).
Those doubts dropped him to the latter 3rd of the 1st round. He overcame them. But to me those doubts are less serious than the doubts about these QBs... Mechanics, desire/work effort, FB IQ, injuries, fumblitis are all things that concern me far more than the other questions... In fact some of the doubts about Mayfield are similar to Rogers (except the system in favor of Mayfield, and off-field not in favor of Mayfield).
In line with my concerns, I feel that Mayfield has the greatest chance to to be successful because the questions about him are more likely to be overcome than the questions about the others. That said, I am by no means sold.
"My" first Giants QB was Charlie Conerly, so, while I haven't "seen it all", I've seen a lot. My personal opinion about Manning is that he is basically finished as a championship-level NFL QB and that he will not start more than the first five games or so in 2018 before he sits for good.
While I understand that he has his fans, I think a lot of them are 1) fantasizing about how much he has left, and 2) Think the Giants owe him more than they do. Bottom line: When he's done, he's done, and he should not play one more snap that solid football judgement dictates.
Back to resistance to drafting a QB at #2: I think the term "franchise QB" is overused and that it is not as significant as many here believe. There are great QBs who have never won championships because their teams were crappy, and there are journeymen who have won Super Bowls because of a great cast of characters and good coaching.
This Giants team is so bad that I think choosing a QB at #2 is a waste. If Barkley can give them a running game, everything gets better immediately. There is no QB born who can make this team better right away the way a superstar RB or LB could do.
Do you think the offense would have performed better if we had an NFL caliber OL?
You do know that the previous coaching staff changed Eli's footwork and throwing motion, right?
Do you think its possible we can see improvement when you have a staff that plays to the players strengths rather than force the players to perform in a system that is broken and doesn't fit anybody?
Bottom line is, until we try, we don't know, but the experts paid to make these decisions think they can turn Eli around.
Do you think the offense would have performed better if we had an NFL caliber OL?
You do know that the previous coaching staff changed Eli's footwork and throwing motion, right?
Do you think its possible we can see improvement when you have a staff that plays to the players strengths rather than force the players to perform in a system that is broken and doesn't fit anybody?
Bottom line is, until we try, we don't know, but the experts paid to make these decisions think they can turn Eli around.
THis is the issue. No more, no less. If they have that conviction, fine. If not, move on to Barkley or someone else or trade down.
But I have no idea what the F that has to do with the draft. Regardless of whether Manning has already played his last game or whether he plays for three more years, his replacement is clearly needed. And it is very unlikely the Giants will be in a similar draft position anytime in the near future. So, either they turn this #2 into Manning's replacement, or they risk spending a very long time finding one.
And it is just ludicrous to believe some random third round pick will turn into gold and hoist the next Giants SB. It might happen and I might win the national lottery. But neither one is likely to happen (and my winning the lottery almost certainly is more likely).
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Do you lay any blame for the offensive ineptitude on the previous coaching staff at all?
Do you think the offense would have performed better if we had an NFL caliber OL?
You do know that the previous coaching staff changed Eli's footwork and throwing motion, right?
Do you think its possible we can see improvement when you have a staff that plays to the players strengths rather than force the players to perform in a system that is broken and doesn't fit anybody?
Bottom line is, until we try, we don't know, but the experts paid to make these decisions think they can turn Eli around.
Good post agree. ELI did not let us down we let him down with poor drafting and demise of the OL. Brady would not have done any better with this group.
Brady took the worst group of offensive skill set players I’ve ever seen to the 2006 AFC championship game in Indy - Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, Doug Gabriel, Daniel Graham, Jabar Gaffney, an aging Corey Dillon, and Kevin Faulk.
I wouldn’t count him out making the Giants a lot more competitive the Eli did...
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In comment 13878829 .McL. said:
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Do you lay any blame for the offensive ineptitude on the previous coaching staff at all?
Do you think the offense would have performed better if we had an NFL caliber OL?
You do know that the previous coaching staff changed Eli's footwork and throwing motion, right?
Do you think its possible we can see improvement when you have a staff that plays to the players strengths rather than force the players to perform in a system that is broken and doesn't fit anybody?
Bottom line is, until we try, we don't know, but the experts paid to make these decisions think they can turn Eli around.
Good post agree. ELI did not let us down we let him down with poor drafting and demise of the OL. Brady would not have done any better with this group.
Brady took the worst group of offensive skill set players I’ve ever seen to the 2006 AFC championship game in Indy - Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, Doug Gabriel, Daniel Graham, Jabar Gaffney, an aging Corey Dillon, and Kevin Faulk.
I wouldn’t count him out making the Giants a lot more competitive the Eli did...
Still want the qb tho.
Reputed by whom?
This still isn't really true, but at least you stopped trotting out those misleading stats that you seemed to think proved your point.
Whoever said Sy56 thinks he has a real chance to be THE GUY is flat out wrong. Here is his review. And btw, Sy had Nathan Peterman rated higher:
6 – Davis Webb – California – 6’5/229: 74
Summary: Fourth year senior that graduated from Texas Tech early and was able to transfer to California for a graduate season. He earned Honorable Mention All Pac 12 honors in 2017, replacing last year’s top overall pick Jared Goff. Webb took advantage of his opportunity and displayed an NFL ability. His size and easy throwing motion can get you excited, but he has a ways to go in terms of progression and learning. Webb is a couple years away and will have to spend a lot of time correcting elements such as a footwork, lower body mechanics, and reading a defense, among other things. Possible starter down the road, but more likely a backup.
*Webb is a hot name with some of the people I get to talk with…and others think he won’t ever be a starter. Nobody denies the talent, but he has a ways to go. I’ve watched every game of his from 2016 and he does the same things week in and week out that bother me. He has to completely change his game and while I think it is possible, it’s simply unlikely.
Upside Pro Comparison: Brock Osweiler – CLE
I have no issue picking a great QB.
I suspect they will need to get on the field sooner then later....and release or trade Eli.
value and ROI is important....as we must do better then other teams...as the Giants find themselves in a spot that is highly desired....so as long as they are picking a qb....they should do some kind of trade....
trade with Jets...if Chubb or Barkley is target
trade with Denver for balance of bluechippers.
A trade with Buffalo puts them on the outside looking in....so they need to trade back down to 7....to secure a blue chipper