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A faulty line of reasoning.....

sxdxca : 3/21/2018 4:14 pm
Something I need to address here.

I've seen it posted here on BBI more than a few times , that the reason why you don't draft a QB with your first pick is because he'll sit on the bench , and that is a waste of salary cap money. So therefore in today's nfl you can't afford to do that.

This is a faulty line of reasoning , and here is why...

Back in 2005 the Green Bay Packers selected Aaron Rodgers in the 1st round.

The Packers had a 35 year old QB playing named Brett Favre.

However they saw that Favre was at the back nine of his career.

By drafting Rodgers , he was able to learn and be groomed behind Favre for 3 years.

So when Rodgers took over in 2008 , there was a seamless transition.

Was salary cap money lost on Aaron Rodgers? Yes

But was it worth it? Absolutely

Why?

Because that time that Aaron sat , he processed exactly what Favre was doing , why he was successful and how the west coast offense worked.

You draft your next franchise QB while your current franchise QB is still good , so he can learn from him , not after he's washed up.

If Davis Webb is the next franchise QB then fine , don't draft one , but if he is not the next guy , then this is what you should do.

The Broncos and Browns have learned from this mistake....



Didn't the Broncos just sign a guy off the street  
Bill L : 3/21/2018 4:17 pm : link
and then win a Super Bowl?
Are there really many people  
steve in ky : 3/21/2018 4:18 pm : link
making the armament that the Giant would view one of these guys as a genuine franchise QB and an answer to the QB situation for years to come but won't draft him because it would be a waste to pay him to sit and learn for a year?
Don't forget about Carson Palmer  
Jay on the Island : 3/21/2018 4:19 pm : link
He sat for a year behind Jon Kitna and he was on his way to becoming an elite QB before he blew out his knee. Had he not suffered the injury the Bengals probably win that game in a landslide and reach the SB.
RE: Are there really many people  
Jay on the Island : 3/21/2018 4:20 pm : link
In comment 13878412 steve in ky said:
Quote:
making the armament that the Giant would view one of these guys as a genuine franchise QB and an answer to the QB situation for years to come but won't draft him because it would be a waste to pay him to sit and learn for a year?

Sadly yes. There are many who don't understand that the draft it about building for future of the franchise not just the present.
Great post and  
Josh in the City : 3/21/2018 4:22 pm : link
100% accurate. To me, the only two reasons you don't draft a QB at #2 is if you're absolutely adamant that Davis Webb is your future or you're absolutely adamant that none of the top QB's in this draft are legit (highly unlikely).
Or you want to build a team in general  
Bill L : 3/21/2018 4:28 pm : link
or you want to build a team with the best players you can get and you also realize you are locked to a QB, like it or not, for a couple years, and you realize that 2018 is not the only year that there is FA and a draft.
There is a strong argument to be made  
steve in ky : 3/21/2018 4:36 pm : link
that the best way to handle a rookie QB is for him to sit a year and learn behind a quality and smart veteran. What better guy would you want a future franchise QB to learn from than Eli.

More than one "veteran" back up of his over the years have said they learned more about playing the QB position from having understudied under him than they had even as starters on other teams.
Excellent  
Joey in VA : 3/21/2018 4:38 pm : link
One outlier example proves a method is true. And Josh the fucking tool agrees with you, so clearly this argument is airtight.
.  
JohnB : 3/21/2018 4:44 pm : link
If Davis Webb is the next franchise QB then fine , don't draft one , but if he is not the next guy , then this is what you should do.


This sums it up.
RE: .  
steve in ky : 3/21/2018 4:52 pm : link
In comment 13878470 JohnB said:
Quote:
If Davis Webb is the next franchise QB then fine , don't draft one , but if he is not the next guy , then this is what you should do.


This sums it up.


That's assuming they believe the player their drafting is a franchise QB. If they don't they better not use the #2 pick on him. And I would go as far as if they truly believed that about one of them you draft him regardless of Webb. Just increases the chances of them at least being right about one of them.
RE: .  
Jay on the Island : 3/21/2018 5:03 pm : link
In comment 13878470 JohnB said:
Quote:
If Davis Webb is the next franchise QB then fine , don't draft one , but if he is not the next guy , then this is what you should do.


This sums it up.

And just how do you determine that Webb is the next franchise QB with a new coaching staff that hasn't seen him play and no real practices before the draft? If they pass on a QB because they are taking a leap of faith on Webb then we are in big trouble. That's the problem they are basing their hope on college film which lead to him being a late 3rd round pick last year.
Better to have 2 potential franchise QBs on the bench than have none  
Ivan15 : 3/21/2018 5:07 pm : link
See NY Jets roster.
Webb  
PaulN : 3/21/2018 5:30 pm : link
Could be a franchise guy, he had very little luck on his side when he started in college. He had Baker Mayfield and Patrick Mahomes on the team, so he left because he was not going to play much in that scenario.

I am not saying I know this guy will be a good NFL QB, but there are some real reasons he dropped in the draft, and there are some good arguments that he could develop into a good NFL QB given time. He will have that here with Eli still here, if this were a given, and the Giants are not in love with any of these QB's, then you can see why Barkley would be very intriguing at 2.

You also could see a scenario where the Bills offer so much that the Jets make an insane counter offer, and we end up with Barkley and extra picks.
You need a better understanding  
jtgiants : 3/21/2018 5:35 pm : link
Of the can. Contracts are different now. You need all the data possible on these kids before there 5th year option. Not getting that fact you don't understand the complexities a first to round pick sitting for multiple years. Its a bad use of assets
Not sure if anyone made the argument sx claims  
idiotsavant : 3/21/2018 5:36 pm : link
Was made though.
Of the  
jtgiants : 3/21/2018 5:37 pm : link
Cap.dann autocorrect
I  
mattyblue : 3/21/2018 5:43 pm : link
don’t think you can stress the contract when selecting this high. If the Giants go QB they aren’t gonna be worrying about when he comes in. If all goes to shit again Eli is going to get benched whether it be Webb or a new guy. No matter how you look at it Eli is on a short leash.
Marty  
jtgiants : 3/21/2018 5:49 pm : link
And if he plays well he'll be here at least this year and next. That knife cuts both ways
Classic straw man argument.  
Jerry K : 3/21/2018 5:50 pm : link
Who is making this claim? I haven't seen it.
Was Aaron Rodgers picked with the 2nd pick in the draft  
Ira : 3/21/2018 5:53 pm : link
or was it the 24th?
RE: Classic straw man argument.  
steve in ky : 3/21/2018 5:55 pm : link
In comment 13878579 Jerry K said:
Quote:
Who is making this claim? I haven't seen it.


That was my first question about the post as well.
RE: RE: .  
Bill L : 3/21/2018 6:01 pm : link
In comment 13878503 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 13878470 JohnB said:


Quote:


If Davis Webb is the next franchise QB then fine , don't draft one , but if he is not the next guy , then this is what you should do.


This sums it up.


And just how do you determine that Webb is the next franchise QB with a new coaching staff that hasn't seen him play and no real practices before the draft? If they pass on a QB because they are taking a leap of faith on Webb then we are in big trouble. That's the problem they are basing their hope on college film which lead to him being a late 3rd round pick last year.
Thats not completely fair. True they haven’t seen him in an NFL game, but I don’t think that there’s any question that they know more about him than they do any player in the current draft. And it’s not true that they haven’t seen him in NFL practices. Some have seen him live but all have seen extensive practice film against bona fide NFL players. They’ve not seen as much f him as they would like and I’m not discounting game conditions, but the same holds true for the QBs in the draft. True they don’t know his full potential and ability yet and he was a lower draft pick than these guys (although some people had him as a first rounder) so you might surmise that there is a difference between he and them, but let’s not give in to complete hyperbole.
RE: RE: RE: .  
Blue21 : 3/21/2018 6:07 pm : link
In comment 13878591 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13878503 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 13878470 JohnB said:


Quote:


If Davis Webb is the next franchise QB then fine , don't draft one , but if he is not the next guy , then this is what you should do.


This sums it up.


And just how do you determine that Webb is the next franchise QB with a new coaching staff that hasn't seen him play and no real practices before the draft? If they pass on a QB because they are taking a leap of faith on Webb then we are in big trouble. That's the problem they are basing their hope on college film which lead to him being a late 3rd round pick last year.

Thats not completely fair. True they haven’t seen him in an NFL game, but I don’t think that there’s any question that they know more about him than they do any player in the current draft. And it’s not true that they haven’t seen him in NFL practices. Some have seen him live but all have seen extensive practice film against bona fide NFL players. They’ve not seen as much f him as they would like and I’m not discounting game conditions, but the same holds true for the QBs in the draft. True they don’t know his full potential and ability yet and he was a lower draft pick than these guys (although some people had him as a first rounder) so you might surmise that there is a difference between he and them, but let’s not give in to complete hyperbole.


Exactly Bill
RE: RE: Classic straw man argument.  
sxdxca : 3/21/2018 7:05 pm : link
In comment 13878587 steve in ky said:
Quote:
In comment 13878579 Jerry K said:


Quote:


Who is making this claim? I haven't seen it.



That was my first question about the post as well.


Who is making this claim you say?



Here it is , here is just one of them , but this same argument has been made several times over the past week , and I needed to address it....

It reads "If you go QB and you sit him for 2 years , it's a disaster. The new nfl dictates these kids play right away."

This is about the gist of it , but over the last week I've heard similar arguments about how using a 1st rd pick on a QB is a waste of salary cap money and space.
RE: Webb  
Amtoft : 3/21/2018 7:14 pm : link
In comment 13878548 PaulN said:
Quote:
Could be a franchise guy, he had very little luck on his side when he started in college. He had Baker Mayfield and Patrick Mahomes on the team, so he left because he was not going to play much in that scenario.

I am not saying I know this guy will be a good NFL QB, but there are some real reasons he dropped in the draft, and there are some good arguments that he could develop into a good NFL QB given time. He will have that here with Eli still here, if this were a given, and the Giants are not in love with any of these QB's, then you can see why Barkley would be very intriguing at 2.

You also could see a scenario where the Bills offer so much that the Jets make an insane counter offer, and we end up with Barkley and extra picks.


This isn't correct... Baker Mayfield won the starting job with Webb was there, but got dinged up and Webb came in and was lights out. Webb was going to be the starter so Mayfield transferred to Oklahoma. Webb with Mahomes there started and got hurt. Mahomes took over to finish the year and had a good year. The next year Webb and Mahomes battled it out in a close battle and they decided to go with Mahomes who was young. Webb stayed all year, but after the year was up Webb left as a grad transfer to Cal.
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
larryflower37 : 3/21/2018 7:53 pm : link
In comment 13878596 Blue21 said:
Quote:
In comment 13878591 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13878503 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 13878470 JohnB said:


Quote:


If Davis Webb is the next franchise QB then fine , don't draft one , but if he is not the next guy , then this is what you should do.


This sums it up.


And just how do you determine that Webb is the next franchise QB with a new coaching staff that hasn't seen him play and no real practices before the draft? If they pass on a QB because they are taking a leap of faith on Webb then we are in big trouble. That's the problem they are basing their hope on college film which lead to him being a late 3rd round pick last year.

Thats not completely fair. True they haven’t seen him in an NFL game, but I don’t think that there’s any question that they know more about him than they do any player in the current draft. And it’s not true that they haven’t seen him in NFL practices. Some have seen him live but all have seen extensive practice film against bona fide NFL players. They’ve not seen as much f him as they would like and I’m not discounting game conditions, but the same holds true for the QBs in the draft. True they don’t know his full potential and ability yet and he was a lower draft pick than these guys (although some people had him as a first rounder) so you might surmise that there is a difference between he and them, but let’s not give in to complete hyperbole.



Exactly Bill


I agree 100%
Now that he has a year under his belt and the Giants got a close look at his work habits, reading defense, foot work under center, etc. They know how he is going to preform on an NFL roster.
Does it make him a better prospect than the 4 QBs coming out? Idk
It's a good bet Gettleman and Shurmer are stack ranking Webb in that way.
RE: Great post and  
sxdxca : 3/21/2018 8:35 pm : link
In comment 13878428 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
100% accurate. To me, the only two reasons you don't draft a QB at #2 is if you're absolutely adamant that Davis Webb is your future or you're absolutely adamant that none of the top QB's in this draft are legit (highly unlikely).


Thanks Josh in the city
RE: .  
sxdxca : 3/21/2018 8:36 pm : link
In comment 13878470 JohnB said:
Quote:
If Davis Webb is the next franchise QB then fine , don't draft one , but if he is not the next guy , then this is what you should do.


This sums it up.


Thanks
Couldn’t it just be as simple  
Bill L : 3/21/2018 8:37 pm : link
As you want the best players on your team?
What straw man  
jtgiants : 3/21/2018 9:28 pm : link
Argument? I stand by the fact the possibility of the number 2 pick sitting 2 years is a terrible use of assets. Does anyone disagree. What angers me is the argument that eli, no matter what, will be released after a year so the kid can play. I don't believe that. If Eli plays well, I'm telling you w a very educated opinion, Mara will let eli play out his contract imo.
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