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BBI- take me back to March 2004

Sean : 3/22/2018 8:27 am
This was the last offseason in which we had a pick so high, with QB in play. What was the mood of the board this time, 14 years ago.

1. Did everyone feel QB was a foregone conclusion? If so, what did the majority of the board want - Eli, Big Ben or Rivers? I remember EA stating he could have traded down with Cleveland, but couldn’t live with himself if they ended up with Manning.

2. Was there serious interest in keeping Collins & drafting either Gallery or Taylor? Granted Gallery went before they picked, but did this board advocate for keeping Collins.

3. Was there a contingent who wanted to trade down?
Down the middle, like now....  
Britt in VA : 3/22/2018 8:30 am : link
Some thought we could win with Kerry Collins and had grown loyal to him, and wanted to take Robert Gallery or Sean Taylor, and didn't want to pay the price of a trade up.

Others wanted a QB, mainly Eli, although some were interested in Roethlisberger (nobody really wanted Rivers). Eli was an exciting prospect and the lead up to the draft was filled with suspense because Ernie let it be known early that he was trying to trade up and get Eli. Eli was the Giants consensus number one and it was very clear a month out from the draft.
I think the prevailing mood was  
Reb8thVA : 3/22/2018 8:36 am : link
To keep Collins. I think there was more debate over who they should pick, Gallery, Sean Taylor or Kellen Winslow, Jr. I remember Milton being the most vocal advocate for drafting a QB, much like he is now with regard to Rosen and he turned out to be correct. Then Gloveone showed up about two weeks ahead of the draft spreading hints of what was going to happen and at that time it was clear they were targeting Manning.
There is always a trade down contingent...  
Reb8thVA : 3/22/2018 8:36 am : link
But I don’t remember how vocal it was.
Did not want to pay the price  
Rocky369 : 3/22/2018 8:38 am : link
for the trade. Would have been satisfied with Roethlisberger
Lots wanted  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 3/22/2018 8:41 am : link
Robert Gallery or Sean Taylor. A few were interested in Kellen Winslow. And of course we had people that wanted Manning.
I admit  
crick n NC : 3/22/2018 8:41 am : link
I wanted Eli because of his name, I literally never watched him play, but since most said he was legit I was on board. Holy crap I knew zero then, at least now I've gained a minimal smidge of knowledge, although that's debatable. :)
But I would say the loudest  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 3/22/2018 8:43 am : link
We’re for Gallery or Taylor.
One big difference was....  
Emlen'sGremlins : 3/22/2018 8:45 am : link
....that Coughlin made it pretty clear in early 2004 that he didn't want anything to do with Kerry Collins or any of the leftover stench from the Fassel era. Shurmur hasn't been afforded the same opportunity with the Giants now.
I was all in on Sean Taylor  
bigblue12 : 3/22/2018 8:45 am : link
He was one of the best college players I had ever seen.
I was in the Gallery camp.  
johnnyb : 3/22/2018 8:47 am : link
Good miss on the Giants’ part.
I'll admit it  
Enzo : 3/22/2018 8:47 am : link
I wanted Gallery or Taylor. I thought we could win with Kerry.
We were coming off a stretch where guys like Brad Johnson, Trent Tilfer, a 6th round pick, and an undrafted free agent had won the previous 5 super bowls. So to me, you didn't necessarily need a franchise QB. Which is, of course, ludicrous.
RE: One big difference was....  
Britt in VA : 3/22/2018 8:47 am : link
In comment 13879207 Emlen'sGremlins said:
Quote:
....that Coughlin made it pretty clear in early 2004 that he didn't want anything to do with Kerry Collins or any of the leftover stench from the Fassel era. Shurmur hasn't been afforded the same opportunity with the Giants now.


That's bullshit, Kerry Collins walked into Ernie's office and demanded to be traded. Wellington Mara was very loyal to Collins, almost to a point that it prevented them from trading up for Eli.
I was happy with Collins - wanted Sean Taylor...  
x meadowlander : 3/22/2018 8:49 am : link
...if they were going QB, I wanted Roethlisburger.

I thought they made a mistake in giving away too much for Manning.

Once upon a time, I thought Lawrence Taylor was a serious waste of a number two pick.

And I LOVED the Dave Brown pick.

I know JACK. :)


FWIW, I want Rosen this year. Be warned. :D
People didn’t want to pay for the trade up..  
Sean : 3/22/2018 8:50 am : link
but 2005 was arguably the best NYG draft in recent history. It just goes to show you it isn’t where you pick, but how you pick which matters.
Acorsi was not hiding his feeling....  
George from PA : 3/22/2018 8:51 am : link
it was either Eli or big ben....was the consensus


Cleveland wanted to trade down...to our spot from 7.....


it was strong draft....with Fitzpatrick, Taylor (killed way to young) and Gallery(somewhat a bust)
I am the MUSH of the NFL Draft...  
x meadowlander : 3/22/2018 8:51 am : link
CMO'N, ROSEN!!!

and for those that liked  
Enzo : 3/22/2018 8:52 am : link
Winslow and Taylor...it's not hard to envision them both having fantastic careers if not for what happened to them.
Why one earth  
Creme777 : 3/22/2018 8:54 am : link
would anyone wanna keep Collins if you had the #4 pick?
RE: People didn’t want to pay for the trade up..  
Creme777 : 3/22/2018 8:55 am : link
In comment 13879219 Sean said:
Quote:
but 2005 was arguably the best NYG draft in recent history. It just goes to show you it isn’t where you pick, but how you pick which matters.


Great observation :)
Gallery  
mattyblue : 3/22/2018 8:56 am : link
was a sure thing everyone said. He was the next Orlando Pace.
Very similar... I wanted Sean Taylor...  
Matt G : 3/22/2018 8:58 am : link
But knew that Big Ben was a possibility... Eli didn’t seem realistic given their GM seemed intent on a Mexican standoff...

When we drafted Rivers and they cut to his living room with his 17 children, I was very annoyed...
RE: One big difference was....  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 3/22/2018 9:02 am : link
In comment 13879207 Emlen'sGremlins said:
Quote:
....that Coughlin made it pretty clear in early 2004 that he didn't want anything to do with Kerry Collins or any of the leftover stench from the Fassel era. Shurmur hasn't been afforded the same opportunity with the Giants now.


The difference this time around is that most of the stench from McAdoo were Free Agents, so no need to cut as many duds.

Having kids is a blessing  
Creme777 : 3/22/2018 9:05 am : link
I salute Mr. Rivers.

But in all serious, I always wonder how Rivers would have done in New Jersey?
What are you talking about??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/22/2018 9:11 am : link
Quote:
One big difference was....
Emlen'sGremlins : 8:45 am : link : reply
....that Coughlin made it pretty clear in early 2004 that he didn't want anything to do with Kerry Collins or any of the leftover stench from the Fassel era. Shurmur hasn't been afforded the same opportunity with the Giants now.


Most of the top players from 2003, were there in 2004. Tiki. Shockey. Strahan. Toomer. In fact, from a statistical standpoint, we had all the same leaders except at QB.

I mean, other than having Warner/Manning at QB, the major changes were having Dayne as backup RB vs. Levens and replacing Brian Mitchell at return.

A real house-cleaning I'd say!
QB was the choice position...  
bw in dc : 3/22/2018 9:16 am : link
Was not sold on Rivers’ arm. And I thought it would be a real issue for him...saw a lot of Bernie Kosar there.

Instead, he’s been nothing short of fabulous for San Diego. I think he’s a sure fire HoF QB.

Came down to Roeth or Eli. I think I leaned Roeth because of his ability to make plays out of the pocket.

I think most people wanted Sean Taylor  
barens : 3/22/2018 9:30 am : link
or Gallery. I was definitely in the Gallery camp as were most people. It was a combination of yearning for that dominant offensive line they hadn't had in a decade, and wanting Coughlin's tenure to start out like it did initially in Jacksonville, with a player most though would be like Toni Boselli.

Obviously, it didn't work out, and the Giants got 2 Super Bowl rings, and the Raiders ended up with Jamarcus Russell.
I wanted Eli  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 3/22/2018 9:36 am : link
badly, mostly because of his brother.
A lot of people wanted the "can't miss" OT  
ZogZerg : 3/22/2018 9:37 am : link
that was near the top of the draft.
Mea Culpa  
idiotsavant : 3/22/2018 9:41 am : link
Two takeaways.

1. The QB move obviously turned out to have been the correct one. So mea culpa there.

But, #2, the long term trends, of ...trying to just patch together a line...of bias towards narrow set and skill."" players, etc. those trends which some of us wanted to start to rectify.. in that draft, those continued to plague the team, not all but many, many of the years during the Manning era.

So in that respect correct.

Bottom line it's what type of football do you want to watch:

- and a high risk, very low margin of error game with one great passing to one great...but -without- the great DL and OL play of yore, simply wasn't entertaining for some of us.



I remember..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/22/2018 9:42 am : link
2004 far too well as a roller coaster. Wanted Eli. Then SD selected him and I wanted to trade down and get Ben. Then the trade was announced and I loved it. Then I heard how much we gave up and I thought it was an overpay.

Taught me a couple of lessons. If you truly have conviction a guy will be your leader, you take him and worry about the cost later. SD used picks on Merriman and a kicker! Merriman was good, but couldn't figure out how to beat the drug test. Kaeding was a fucking kicker!

Without the 2 SB's, trading for Manning was the wrong move. But we have those 2 SB's. SD has squadoosh. If we can get our Manning, stay put this year and take a QB. If not, trade down and be the beneficiary of an overpay. and don't take a fucking kicker!
RE: A lot of people wanted the  
Mike from Ohio : 3/22/2018 9:47 am : link
In comment 13879309 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
that was near the top of the draft.


^^^This

Much like this year, Gallery was seen by many as a guy who was a safe pick, perennial All-Pro and likely Hall of Famer. It goes to show that picking a lineman is not any safer than picking a QB.

The lesson is that any one of these picks could wind up as a bust, including Nelson or Barkley. Pick the best player and trust the process.
For those who started in the 1980s.  
idiotsavant : 3/22/2018 9:55 am : link
The essence of NY Giants football is this:

Opposing teams..all opposing teams ...regardless of expectations that season ...and after only one down of play, and facing particularly our DL and lbs, say:

"Oh crap, not these guys again, this day is really, really going to suck"

Then, we get the ball back, 3.6 yards and a cloud of dust.

And we chuckle. The opponent's don't even WANT the ball right now. Too painful.

That is NY ball.

Now, I give you this. Quick scoring every so often as a change-up, fine. But you build that after not prior to.
Kerry Collins was released after the Giants acquired Warner and  
Ivan15 : 3/22/2018 9:59 am : link
Manning.

If there was a trade demand, it must have been after they got Warner but before drafting Manning.

I would have been happy with Warner. He was pretty productive. He didn’t have “it” that Ernie and Coughlin wanted.
RE: I remember..  
bw in dc : 3/22/2018 10:00 am : link
In comment 13879324 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Without the 2 SB's, trading for Manning was the wrong move. But we have those 2 SB's. SD has squadoosh. If we can get our Manning, stay put this year and take a QB. If not, trade down and be the beneficiary of an overpay. and don't take a fucking kicker!


I feel like you wrote this to lure me in - "SD has squadoosh."

Well, at least Rivers didn't shy away from the challenge and ask his daddy to...Ahhh, forget it... ;)
I wanted  
Carl in CT : 3/22/2018 10:01 am : link
Taylor. Not many of us that were here then are still here on a regular basis. I believe it was still “Pete’s Corner”.
Sorry I meant happy with Collins  
Ivan15 : 3/22/2018 10:03 am : link
.
bw..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/22/2018 10:03 am : link
I meant from a hardware standpoint.

i'm not right that often  
djm : 3/22/2018 10:04 am : link
so I will pound my chest and proudly say I was screaming for the Giants to do whatever it took to get Eli.
I wanted Gallery  
Sonic Youth : 3/22/2018 10:06 am : link
A lot wanted Taylor. I'd say the most popular options were QB (whether it was trade up or Ben) or Gallery.

The difference, however, was that:

1) Collins was only around 30, not 37
2) Collins had taken the Giants to the Superbowl a couple years prior
3) People thought very highly of the 2002 offense, while the most recent playoff team at this moment was very clearly a defensive driven team.
and yes  
Sonic Youth : 3/22/2018 10:06 am : link
Nobody wanted Rivers at all.
FMIC  
crick n NC : 3/22/2018 10:07 am : link
Perhaps I'm reading into something that isn't there. You mentioned the two Superbowls made the trade worth it. What about one of the Superbowls? To me it was worth it for just one Superbowl, I'm not saying you are saying that, I'm just asking.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/22/2018 10:08 am : link
If I recall correctly, a focal point of the debate was Gallery vs. Sean Taylor.

Eli was only coming up because some asshat named "glovedone" came on a few times outlining how the Giants would trade up for Eli Manning and he got the trade down almost to a T... even said Eli wouldn't put on the San Diego hat on stage. (That glovedone asked for his account to be deleted after the draft).

In terms of the QB debate, a lot of people liked Roethlisberger and the rumor was that Bob Tisch was pushing for him.
I didn't realistically consider a trade up and didn't like Big Ben  
Eric on Li : 3/22/2018 10:08 am : link
was worried about the small school thing. So I really wanted Sean Taylor. That was the peak of Miami putting stars in the NFL, Shockey had stepped in as an impact player day one, and Taylor seemed destined to do the same at safety, as were a lot of his teammates so I was also ok with a trade down and getting someone like Wilfork or Vilma or DJ Williams.

I was ok with Robert Gallery too, though he seemed like he was going to get picked ahead of us. When they got Eli it was a real surprise and I was excited about potentially having a great QB for once.
There was some thought to trading down a few spots (7?) and  
Ivan15 : 3/22/2018 10:09 am : link
Getting Big Ben.

That might have been a better move because of the picks gained instead of lost.
crick..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/22/2018 10:16 am : link
the trade was definitely worth it for any Super Bowl.

I just mentioned the 2 because that's what happened.

It really can't be underscored how important it is to win it all. It is the goal of all the teams. It is also what frustrates me when fans act like we are the dregs of the league.
My recollections  
Mike in NY : 3/22/2018 10:25 am : link
1. Did everyone feel QB was a foregone conclusion? If so, what did the majority of the board want - Eli, Big Ben or Rivers? I remember EA stating he could have traded down with Cleveland, but couldn’t live with himself if they ended up with Manning.
There was nobody that really wanted Rivers. It was generally a four horse race between Eli, Big Ben, Gallery, and Taylor. I wouldn't say that one player clearly was the favorite. I think a majority had Eli as the best player in the draft, but had questions about whether the difference was that much greater than the value we could have gotten from the picks not lost to a trade up

2. Was there serious interest in keeping Collins & drafting either Gallery or Taylor? Granted Gallery went before they picked, but did this board advocate for keeping Collins.
I do not recall people being that enthralled with Collins. It was more that they could live with him to stay put and draft Gallery or Taylor

3. Was there a contingent who wanted to trade down?
There always is. Moreso because it was acknowledged that there was a good offer in place with Cleveland that would have still kept us in position to draft Ben Roethlisberger, who many on this board did not feel was far off of Manning
FMIC  
crick n NC : 3/22/2018 10:36 am : link
Yes sir I agree. I've certainly been guilty of that thinking. I've gained a little perspective since then I guess.

I would argue the trade would be worth it if it put the Giants in a better situation to win it all than what they were before the trade. I get that a lot of folks will not see it that way, not that it is the right way of thinking. You upgrade your team to put yourself in a good position to win it all sine there are no guarantees in the NFL no matter how great of a team you have assembled.

Marino's teams didn't win it all, but he had them in a position often to win it, so even though they never accomplished the ultimate his career was not a failure or their desire to keep him.
Also  
crick n NC : 3/22/2018 10:38 am : link
I get paying too much to upgrade your team just a smidge. I should have said the trade would have been worth it to me even if they didn't win it all because it significantly put them in a better position to win it all.
RE: ...  
Britt in VA : 3/22/2018 10:49 am : link
In comment 13879383 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
If I recall correctly, a focal point of the debate was Gallery vs. Sean Taylor.

Eli was only coming up because some asshat named "glovedone" came on a few times outlining how the Giants would trade up for Eli Manning and he got the trade down almost to a T... even said Eli wouldn't put on the San Diego hat on stage. (That glovedone asked for his account to be deleted after the draft).

In terms of the QB debate, a lot of people liked Roethlisberger and the rumor was that Bob Tisch was pushing for him.


A month before the draft, Mike Francessa went on the air and said there was a blockbuster trade brewing for the Giants to move up to one to select Manning.

There was a mega thread on it on BBI (I started it).

Gloveone (the real one) showed up a couple weeks after that.
It was mostly Gallery and Taylor around here  
Face Pepler : 3/22/2018 11:34 am : link
I wanted Manning bad.

I had been okay with Collins up until the SB. After that, I wanted him gone. I was disgusted with his play against Baltimore. He seemed absolutely panic-stricken, and i always felt his fear spread through the team.

All I read about Eli made me sure that he was going to be a quarterback who would never be overwhelmed in a tough spot.
Some similarities to today for sure  
JerseyCityJoe : 3/22/2018 11:55 am : link
Most seemed to think Collins was good enough if given the right tools around him. (I did). However the thought of grabbing a Manning in the draft was just overwhelming. Hardly anyone was complaining about the price we had to pay and rightfully so.
I wanted Manning  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/22/2018 12:10 pm : link
and was sure Manning would become a Giant
RE: Some similarities to today for sure  
Britt in VA : 3/22/2018 12:12 pm : link
In comment 13880079 JerseyCityJoe said:
Quote:
Most seemed to think Collins was good enough if given the right tools around him. (I did). However the thought of grabbing a Manning in the draft was just overwhelming. Hardly anyone was complaining about the price we had to pay and rightfully so.


There were a lot of people complaining about the price, for years after even.
Eli did not want to play for San Diego  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/22/2018 12:25 pm : link
So as much as I wanted Eli, I didn't love how he got here. They gave up a lot, but he was also seen by some as the "surest" QB in the draft.

I also regretted losing Collins, who was part of the best game I had ever seen in person (2000 NFC Championship).
RE: RE: I remember..  
DieHard : 3/22/2018 12:46 pm : link
In comment 13879355 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13879324 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:




Without the 2 SB's, trading for Manning was the wrong move. But we have those 2 SB's. SD has squadoosh. If we can get our Manning, stay put this year and take a QB. If not, trade down and be the beneficiary of an overpay. and don't take a fucking kicker!

I feel like you wrote this to lure me in - "SD has squadoosh."

Well, at least Rivers didn't shy away from the challenge and ask his daddy to...Ahhh, forget it... ;)


Yeah, because going to a 4-12 Giants team and dealing with an overrated management team of Accorsi and Coughlin, not to mention a ravenous NYC media, was such a lesser challenge. ;-)
Britt  
JerseyCityJoe : 3/22/2018 1:26 pm : link
Quote:
There were a lot of people complaining about the price, for years after even.


On that draft day the optimism and euphoria of drafting Manning was overwhelming. I remember very little hand wringing about the deal at the time. Later and as you say even years later it became more of an issue. I'm not saying some people we not questioning the deal at the time but the general consensus was Eli would worth every penny. At least thats how I remember it.
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