This was the last offseason in which we had a pick so high, with QB in play. What was the mood of the board this time, 14 years ago.
1. Did everyone feel QB was a foregone conclusion? If so, what did the majority of the board want - Eli, Big Ben or Rivers? I remember EA stating he could have traded down with Cleveland, but couldn’t live with himself if they ended up with Manning.
2. Was there serious interest in keeping Collins & drafting either Gallery or Taylor? Granted Gallery went before they picked, but did this board advocate for keeping Collins.
3. Was there a contingent who wanted to trade down?
Others wanted a QB, mainly Eli, although some were interested in Roethlisberger (nobody really wanted Rivers). Eli was an exciting prospect and the lead up to the draft was filled with suspense because Ernie let it be known early that he was trying to trade up and get Eli. Eli was the Giants consensus number one and it was very clear a month out from the draft.
We were coming off a stretch where guys like Brad Johnson, Trent Tilfer, a 6th round pick, and an undrafted free agent had won the previous 5 super bowls. So to me, you didn't necessarily need a franchise QB. Which is, of course, ludicrous.
That's bullshit, Kerry Collins walked into Ernie's office and demanded to be traded. Wellington Mara was very loyal to Collins, almost to a point that it prevented them from trading up for Eli.
I thought they made a mistake in giving away too much for Manning.
Once upon a time, I thought Lawrence Taylor was a serious waste of a number two pick.
And I LOVED the Dave Brown pick.
I know JACK. :)
FWIW, I want Rosen this year. Be warned. :D
Cleveland wanted to trade down...to our spot from 7.....
it was strong draft....with Fitzpatrick, Taylor (killed way to young) and Gallery(somewhat a bust)
Great observation :)
When we drafted Rivers and they cut to his living room with his 17 children, I was very annoyed...
The difference this time around is that most of the stench from McAdoo were Free Agents, so no need to cut as many duds.
But in all serious, I always wonder how Rivers would have done in New Jersey?
Emlen'sGremlins : 8:45 am : link : reply
....that Coughlin made it pretty clear in early 2004 that he didn't want anything to do with Kerry Collins or any of the leftover stench from the Fassel era. Shurmur hasn't been afforded the same opportunity with the Giants now.
Most of the top players from 2003, were there in 2004. Tiki. Shockey. Strahan. Toomer. In fact, from a statistical standpoint, we had all the same leaders except at QB.
I mean, other than having Warner/Manning at QB, the major changes were having Dayne as backup RB vs. Levens and replacing Brian Mitchell at return.
A real house-cleaning I'd say!
Instead, he’s been nothing short of fabulous for San Diego. I think he’s a sure fire HoF QB.
Came down to Roeth or Eli. I think I leaned Roeth because of his ability to make plays out of the pocket.
Obviously, it didn't work out, and the Giants got 2 Super Bowl rings, and the Raiders ended up with Jamarcus Russell.
1. The QB move obviously turned out to have been the correct one. So mea culpa there.
But, #2, the long term trends, of ...trying to just patch together a line...of bias towards narrow set and skill."" players, etc. those trends which some of us wanted to start to rectify.. in that draft, those continued to plague the team, not all but many, many of the years during the Manning era.
So in that respect correct.
Bottom line it's what type of football do you want to watch:
- and a high risk, very low margin of error game with one great passing to one great...but -without- the great DL and OL play of yore, simply wasn't entertaining for some of us.
Taught me a couple of lessons. If you truly have conviction a guy will be your leader, you take him and worry about the cost later. SD used picks on Merriman and a kicker! Merriman was good, but couldn't figure out how to beat the drug test. Kaeding was a fucking kicker!
Without the 2 SB's, trading for Manning was the wrong move. But we have those 2 SB's. SD has squadoosh. If we can get our Manning, stay put this year and take a QB. If not, trade down and be the beneficiary of an overpay. and don't take a fucking kicker!
^^^This
Much like this year, Gallery was seen by many as a guy who was a safe pick, perennial All-Pro and likely Hall of Famer. It goes to show that picking a lineman is not any safer than picking a QB.
The lesson is that any one of these picks could wind up as a bust, including Nelson or Barkley. Pick the best player and trust the process.
Opposing teams..all opposing teams ...regardless of expectations that season ...and after only one down of play, and facing particularly our DL and lbs, say:
"Oh crap, not these guys again, this day is really, really going to suck"
Then, we get the ball back, 3.6 yards and a cloud of dust.
And we chuckle. The opponent's don't even WANT the ball right now. Too painful.
That is NY ball.
Now, I give you this. Quick scoring every so often as a change-up, fine. But you build that after not prior to.
If there was a trade demand, it must have been after they got Warner but before drafting Manning.
I would have been happy with Warner. He was pretty productive. He didn’t have “it” that Ernie and Coughlin wanted.
Without the 2 SB's, trading for Manning was the wrong move. But we have those 2 SB's. SD has squadoosh. If we can get our Manning, stay put this year and take a QB. If not, trade down and be the beneficiary of an overpay. and don't take a fucking kicker!
I feel like you wrote this to lure me in - "SD has squadoosh."
Well, at least Rivers didn't shy away from the challenge and ask his daddy to...Ahhh, forget it... ;)
The difference, however, was that:
1) Collins was only around 30, not 37
2) Collins had taken the Giants to the Superbowl a couple years prior
3) People thought very highly of the 2002 offense, while the most recent playoff team at this moment was very clearly a defensive driven team.
Eli was only coming up because some asshat named "glovedone" came on a few times outlining how the Giants would trade up for Eli Manning and he got the trade down almost to a T... even said Eli wouldn't put on the San Diego hat on stage. (That glovedone asked for his account to be deleted after the draft).
In terms of the QB debate, a lot of people liked Roethlisberger and the rumor was that Bob Tisch was pushing for him.
I was ok with Robert Gallery too, though he seemed like he was going to get picked ahead of us. When they got Eli it was a real surprise and I was excited about potentially having a great QB for once.
That might have been a better move because of the picks gained instead of lost.
I just mentioned the 2 because that's what happened.
It really can't be underscored how important it is to win it all. It is the goal of all the teams. It is also what frustrates me when fans act like we are the dregs of the league.
There was nobody that really wanted Rivers. It was generally a four horse race between Eli, Big Ben, Gallery, and Taylor. I wouldn't say that one player clearly was the favorite. I think a majority had Eli as the best player in the draft, but had questions about whether the difference was that much greater than the value we could have gotten from the picks not lost to a trade up
2. Was there serious interest in keeping Collins & drafting either Gallery or Taylor? Granted Gallery went before they picked, but did this board advocate for keeping Collins.
I do not recall people being that enthralled with Collins. It was more that they could live with him to stay put and draft Gallery or Taylor
3. Was there a contingent who wanted to trade down?
There always is. Moreso because it was acknowledged that there was a good offer in place with Cleveland that would have still kept us in position to draft Ben Roethlisberger, who many on this board did not feel was far off of Manning
I would argue the trade would be worth it if it put the Giants in a better situation to win it all than what they were before the trade. I get that a lot of folks will not see it that way, not that it is the right way of thinking. You upgrade your team to put yourself in a good position to win it all sine there are no guarantees in the NFL no matter how great of a team you have assembled.
Marino's teams didn't win it all, but he had them in a position often to win it, so even though they never accomplished the ultimate his career was not a failure or their desire to keep him.
Eli was only coming up because some asshat named "glovedone" came on a few times outlining how the Giants would trade up for Eli Manning and he got the trade down almost to a T... even said Eli wouldn't put on the San Diego hat on stage. (That glovedone asked for his account to be deleted after the draft).
In terms of the QB debate, a lot of people liked Roethlisberger and the rumor was that Bob Tisch was pushing for him.
A month before the draft, Mike Francessa went on the air and said there was a blockbuster trade brewing for the Giants to move up to one to select Manning.
There was a mega thread on it on BBI (I started it).
Gloveone (the real one) showed up a couple weeks after that.
I had been okay with Collins up until the SB. After that, I wanted him gone. I was disgusted with his play against Baltimore. He seemed absolutely panic-stricken, and i always felt his fear spread through the team.
All I read about Eli made me sure that he was going to be a quarterback who would never be overwhelmed in a tough spot.
There were a lot of people complaining about the price, for years after even.
I also regretted losing Collins, who was part of the best game I had ever seen in person (2000 NFC Championship).
Quote:
Without the 2 SB's, trading for Manning was the wrong move. But we have those 2 SB's. SD has squadoosh. If we can get our Manning, stay put this year and take a QB. If not, trade down and be the beneficiary of an overpay. and don't take a fucking kicker!
I feel like you wrote this to lure me in - "SD has squadoosh."
Well, at least Rivers didn't shy away from the challenge and ask his daddy to...Ahhh, forget it... ;)
Yeah, because going to a 4-12 Giants team and dealing with an overrated management team of Accorsi and Coughlin, not to mention a ravenous NYC media, was such a lesser challenge. ;-)
On that draft day the optimism and euphoria of drafting Manning was overwhelming. I remember very little hand wringing about the deal at the time. Later and as you say even years later it became more of an issue. I'm not saying some people we not questioning the deal at the time but the general consensus was Eli would worth every penny. At least thats how I remember it.