it doesn't have to take multiple seasons unless you're a really crappy franchise (and have no QB). I don't believe we're as bad as our record was last year. The HC was as bad as our record was last year.
I think DG wants to rebuild, of course, but he also wants to win in '18 (not necessarily the SB, but compete for playoffs). He hates to lose and he's no young pup.
Why would he sign a 29-30 yr old LT to highest contract ever if we were totally in rebuild mode?
Why would he sign a 29-30 yr old RB with a lot of wear on his wheels if we were totally in rebuild mode?
Why would he say he's going with a QB who's 37 yrs old...
They signed Solder and PATRICK OMAMEH. You forgot about him? It slipped your mind?
And you are mentioning FLuker as if he would be some big loss that shows the Giants are rebuilding? Fluker? Really? Laughable. He might turn out to be fine but to bring him up in the context of whether we are rebuilding or not - because we let him go -- it just shows how ridiculous one needs to make a desperate point to try to show Giants are more in rebuild mode. Fluker? c'mon.
He's right, if he is talking 2019. Tearing it down for 2018 makes no financial sense for the Giants. Plus Eli has a no trade clause and cutting him is costly.
With every day that goes by, the more convinced I am that Gettleman is a genius at playing this game. First, he has accepted reality. He recognizes he has a viable starter at QB at what has become below market value. And he has him for two more years. There is no logical reason to cut bait with Eli in 2018, and there is an argument you can stick with him through the end of his contract. This gives Gettleman the luxury of time at the games most important position. He doesn't have to rush and make a decision he is not convinced about.
He has also recognized there is little he can do about the cap in 2018, but he can certainly do a lot about it in 2019. In all likelihood the Giants will have between 50-70 million dollars of cap space to work with in 2019, unless they sign Collins or OBJ to long term contracts early.
The reality is Gettleman doesn't have to blow it up much more than he already has. Cutting JPP gave him a lot of options in 2019. But, if Gettleman wants to create a mountain of cap space in 2019, the Giants can cut ties with Eli, Jenkins, and Vernon with minimal financial ramifications. Don't be surprised if Vernon is a candidate for trade in 2019.
A few days before the JPP trade I said that what I believe Gettleman is doing is preparing and crafting a team that will support a transition to a new QB. Unless Cleveland passes on Darnold, which I don't think they will, I don't think Gettleman believes that QB has to be drafted this year. I think Gettleman believes he has two years to play with at the QB position, 2018 and 2019, if he needs to. 2018 is about putting a competent OL in place, transitioning to a new defense, and signing the talent the team wants to keep.
I don't believe Gettleman is as focused on "have to get the QB" as the pundits think he should be. I would assume he fears the David Carr scenario, as much as he fears picking the wrong QB or not having one. Take a talented QB and put him on an incomplete team and you may ruin his progression. It's just as bad as taking the wrong QB, and even worse than not taking one. If Gettleman can fix the OL, keep OBJ, and bring a running game to the offense, then your chances of a young QB having sustained success increase dramatically.
we are a THREE WIN TEAM that has had a piss poor offense for the past few years. If we are not making major changes, then how does anyone think we can compete next year?
If the goal is to win a championship then yeah we have to rebuild. We also have so many holes that I do not see us getting the rest of the team fixed in time for Eli to win another championship here.
Did you forget that the team was built on it's Wide receivers and in particular lost arguably one of the best players in all of football who was a wide receiver and had an awful coach?
Thus 3 win team you mention-- you seriously think DG thinks he can't get in the playoffs with the drafts picks he has along with the signings he has made?
RE: Ahh Schefter, always statements with no context Â
He's right, if he is talking 2019. Tearing it down for 2018 makes no financial sense for the Giants. Plus Eli has a no trade clause and cutting him is costly.
With every day that goes by, the more convinced I am that Gettleman is a genius at playing this game. First, he has accepted reality. He recognizes he has a viable starter at QB at what has become below market value. And he has him for two more years. There is no logical reason to cut bait with Eli in 2018, and there is an argument you can stick with him through the end of his contract. This gives Gettleman the luxury of time at the games most important position. He doesn't have to rush and make a decision he is not convinced about.
He has also recognized there is little he can do about the cap in 2018, but he can certainly do a lot about it in 2019. In all likelihood the Giants will have between 50-70 million dollars of cap space to work with in 2019, unless they sign Collins or OBJ to long term contracts early.
The reality is Gettleman doesn't have to blow it up much more than he already has. Cutting JPP gave him a lot of options in 2019. But, if Gettleman wants to create a mountain of cap space in 2019, the Giants can cut ties with Eli, Jenkins, and Vernon with minimal financial ramifications. Don't be surprised if Vernon is a candidate for trade in 2019.
A few days before the JPP trade I said that what I believe Gettleman is doing is preparing and crafting a team that will support a transition to a new QB. Unless Cleveland passes on Darnold, which I don't think they will, I don't think Gettleman believes that QB has to be drafted this year. I think Gettleman believes he has two years to play with at the QB position, 2018 and 2019, if he needs to. 2018 is about putting a competent OL in place, transitioning to a new defense, and signing the talent the team wants to keep.
I don't believe Gettleman is as focused on "have to get the QB" as the pundits think he should be. I would assume he fears the David Carr scenario, as much as he fears picking the wrong QB or not having one. Take a talented QB and put him on an incomplete team and you may ruin his progression. It's just as bad as taking the wrong QB, and even worse than not taking one. If Gettleman can fix the OL, keep OBJ, and bring a running game to the offense, then your chances of a young QB having sustained success increase dramatically.
Excuse me, I meant trading JPP, not cutting him.
RE: RE: RE: Not in rebuild mode - that's ridiculous Â
You don't overpay for Solder and keep Eli if you are in rebuild mode.
Solder is the key. Explain why you'd so vastly overpay for Solder if you are rebuilding?
Though i would like the idea of rebuilding and then taking the QB.
Eli has a no trade clause. Soldier was NOT their first choice. He was the fall back option after their top guy got away and he was the top remaining Oline at the time. They are serious about rebuilding the line, but that doesn't mean they don't believe this team needs an overhaul. How many players have they cut, traded, or neglected to resign? Plenty so far, and I doubt they're done. And it may not all happen this year.
1-- They could have let Eli go. Then assured they'd stink again.
2-- What difference does it make that Solder "was the fall back position? They SIGNED him. They SIGNED him and GROSSLY overpaid for him. And he's up there in age. He is NOT a "rebuild" signing.
3-- What is your point about how many players have they neglected to sign and how many have they cut from a 3-13 team? Are you saying many of the players deserved to be resigned after such as sparkling 3-13 season?
Solder is probably the most necessary component for a rebuild. You never want your young qb to be without a good left tackle, so when Rosen takes over in 19, he will now have one. It is silly to have a young qb without blindside protection if you want your qb to not only succeed, but to say alive.
Rebuild, remake, retool...whatever...call it what you will, but it shouldn't come as a surprise that a team that won three games last year is going to experience some radical changes, beginning with a new GM and HC. Did anyone think they were hired to "stay the course?"
They signed Solder and PATRICK OMAMEH. You forgot about him? It slipped your mind?
And you are mentioning FLuker as if he would be some big loss that shows the Giants are rebuilding? Fluker? Really? Laughable. He might turn out to be fine but to bring him up in the context of whether we are rebuilding or not - because we let him go -- it just shows how ridiculous one needs to make a desperate point to try to show Giants are more in rebuild mode. Fluker? c'mon.
Are you serious? What doe rebuilding mean to you? Brining in new people is not something you would do if you were rebuilding? Is this bizzaro would or what. The point is there has been a lot of roster turnover. This could be a sign of rebuilding the roster, no? Is that really hard to grasp?
Rebuild, remake, retool...whatever...call it what you will, but it shouldn't come as a surprise that a team that won three games last year is going to experience some radical changes, beginning with a new GM and HC. Did anyone think they were hired to "stay the course?"
The reason why this place had become a joke over the last six years is because we did "stay the course," and our owner was unable to make the hard choices that was necessary for success. So, instead we had a year by year piecemeal dismantling of a once successful regime that had completely ran its course. That Mara tried to heal that by making about one big change a year, completely screwed the franchise and Eli. Imagine how different things would be if Mara made the wholesale change after 2013 or 2014? That he fired Gilbride in 2013, Coughlin in 2015 and Reese in 2017 is the reason why we are in the position we are in now. No more half-measures and I hope that is the lesson Mara learned from the last six seasons.
I guess it depends on your definition of "rebuild".
Letting 3 oft injured underperforming OL go and be overpaid somewhere else doesn't mean anything re. whether we're rebuilding or not.
They let a lot of guys go. Here is over 30% of the roster: JPP, DRC, Vereen, Pugh, K Robinson, Fluker, Castillas, Richburg, Cockrell, Dawkwa, Sheppard, Ayers, Bromley, T King, Berhe, Kennard
He can't really be cut this year so play 2018, teach whoever is behind him, and then move on. I think that's the play regardless of "win now" vs. "rebuild".
Is he really gonna be content being a teacher/placeholder? i seem to recall him saying that was not the case?
If he feels any discontent he can just take a look at his massive paycheck. I'm sure he will be fine.
Tearing it down means everyone of value goes, expensive contracts are flushed, you're stripping the roster to bare bones and starting over.
They're not doing all the above right now, much of it is underway but the big pieces remain for next offeason, eg, Eli, OV, and so on are able to be removed from the books if they choose.
I don't know how anyone looks at the moves so far and declares a full rebuild takes less than 2-3 offseasons to complete.
Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
This gives Gettleman the luxury of time at the games most important position. He doesn't have to rush and make a decision he is not convinced about.
In all likelihood the Giants will have between 50-70 million dollars of cap space to work with in 2019, unless they sign Collins or OBJ to long term contracts early.
A few days before the JPP trade I said that what I believe Gettleman is doing is preparing and crafting a team that will support a transition to a new QB. Unless Cleveland passes on Darnold, which I don't think they will, I don't think Gettleman believes that QB has to be drafted this year. I think Gettleman believes he has two years to play with at the QB position, 2018 and 2019, if he needs to. 2018 is about putting a competent OL in place, transitioning to a new defense, and signing the talent the team wants to keep.
I don't believe Gettleman is as focused on "have to get the QB" as the pundits think he should be. I would assume he fears the David Carr scenario, as much as he fears picking the wrong QB or not having one. Take a talented QB and put him on an incomplete team and you may ruin his progression. It's just as bad as taking the wrong QB, and even worse than not taking one. If Gettleman can fix the OL, keep OBJ, and bring a running game to the offense, then your chances of a young QB having sustained success increase dramatically.
And if he is under the belief that he doesn't "need" the QB -- he had better be certain he can get one. Philly is a long term powerhouse. Cowboys still look strong. You mess up not getting a good QB - chances are you will fail.
And a final point. If the Giants have a ton of cap money in 2019 along with if they draft a pretty good offensive lineman in 2018, wouldn't DG have to be terribly incompetent if his offensive line wasn't any good, EVEN IF HE SIGNED A QB WITH THE 1ST PICK THIS YEAR?
DG can have a ton of cap space next year and he has good draft pick availability this year. If ever there were a team to set up a young QB for the future- it would be currently a team like the Giants.
It makes little sense to NOT take the QB unless they really don't like who it is that becomes/will likely become available or they love Webb. This team is setup to be built for a young QB for a long time in the future. This upcoming year they are just 1 OL away from being at worst "decent." With OBJ the O-Line nor the QB NEEDS to be top tier.
I guess it depends on your definition of "rebuild".
Letting 3 oft injured underperforming OL go and be overpaid somewhere else doesn't mean anything re. whether we're rebuilding or not.
They let a lot of guys go. Here is over 30% of the roster: JPP, DRC, Vereen, Pugh, K Robinson, Fluker, Castillas, Richburg, Cockrell, Dawkwa, Sheppard, Ayers, Bromley, T King, Berhe, Kennard
However, I still think we could be competitive and eek out a 9 - 7 type season IF we get the "right schedule - easier early"; stay healthy in camp and early - injuries will happen but we need continuity early"; and, we draft well and our UFA's (kept & signed) turn out to be quality players. Lots of BIG IF's.
Now, I would not be shocked if in 2019, the Giants cut all big contracts and put rookies & 2nd year players (2018 draft types) & 3rd year players into the starting roles.
Bye-bye to Eli (gulp); Vernon (contract); Rabbit at CB (contract); and, OBJ walks in UFA as we decide not to tag him - we'd easily land a #3 draft pick for him. OBJ only walks if his attitude merits a walk OR his play goes down due to injury & such.
I guess it depends on your definition of "rebuild".
Letting 3 oft injured underperforming OL go and be overpaid somewhere else doesn't mean anything re. whether we're rebuilding or not.
They let a lot of guys go. Here is over 30% of the roster: JPP, DRC, Vereen, Pugh, K Robinson, Fluker, Castillas, Richburg, Cockrell, Dawkwa, Sheppard, Ayers, Bromley, T King, Berhe, Kennard
On a 3-13 team. So what's your point?
Its pretty clear if you read the thread. I responded to a post saying " Not in rebuild mode - that's ridiculous" You are right, 3-13. So why would it be ridiculous? The roster and culture need to be rebuilt.
But this roster needs to be rebuilt. The talent, the culture, etc. Coming off a 3 win season I'm not sure why this would be so objectionable to many.
I'm not so sure why so many think the giants are in a full rebuild mode either. They've upgraded the offensive line and LB core. They are getting one of the top players in all of football back. And they aren't done yet and they'll have a good set of draft picks to choose from and a ton of money to spend next year.It is ridiculous ot believe all of this means Giants are in full rebuild mode.
That's just the reality those rooting for a 'win now' Â
But this roster needs to be rebuilt. The talent, the culture, etc. Coming off a 3 win season I'm not sure why this would be so objectionable to many.
I'm not so sure why so many think the giants are in a full rebuild mode either. They've upgraded the offensive line and LB core. They are getting one of the top players in all of football back. And they aren't done yet and they'll have a good set of draft picks to choose from and a ton of money to spend next year.It is ridiculous ot believe all of this means Giants are in full rebuild mode.
I don't think full blown. But many have been singing win-now. I don't think that is the case at all.
I guess it depends on your definition of "rebuild".
Letting 3 oft injured underperforming OL go and be overpaid somewhere else doesn't mean anything re. whether we're rebuilding or not.
They let a lot of guys go. Here is over 30% of the roster: JPP, DRC, Vereen, Pugh, K Robinson, Fluker, Castillas, Richburg, Cockrell, Dawkwa, Sheppard, Ayers, Bromley, T King, Berhe, Kennard
On a 3-13 team. So what's your point?
Its pretty clear if you read the thread. I responded to a post saying " Not in rebuild mode - that's ridiculous" You are right, 3-13. So why would it be ridiculous? The roster and culture need to be rebuilt.
HAsn't the team already been heavily rebuilt from coaching to getting back OBJ to a rebuilt line to a rebuilt LB core? OBJ coming back is huge along with a rebuilt O-Line. Juuist need one more OLineman.
then a trade down from 2 makes sense. Get as many first two day picks as possible.
No - the bets move is if theylike the QB at 2 - you take him. By next year - 2019 you should have a sold OLine built which means the QB you've taken - he is no doubt highly talented- can grow in a steady manner. Then you can go crazy building up the defense while having a talented cheap QB for several years.
to look beyond the season at hand. There's little to no concept of 2019 for some.
We see it every year specifically to the draft, eg.
JonC, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think the problem is fans tend to equate rebuild with tank. Gettleman is not tanking. He is trying to put a competitive product on the field in 2018, for a full rebuild in 2019 around the future of the franchise. You can rebuild without tanking.
... when they shipped McAdoo, Reese, and Ross out on a rail. DG is cleaning up the mess. They will have a better team in 2018. Why spend big on a 30 y/o Solder if it’s a tear down? Why trade for Ogletree? If a total tear down, why not trade Beckham?
I keep hearing people say not a rebuild, then react to "tear down" which are not the exact same thing.
I think people are putting too much stock in the Soldier signing. We forget he was not their first choice for Oline, the guard was, despite the fact that the needs for LT were greater than OG. We know they had a priority to rebuild the Oline. There aren't a lot of options for quality young Oline on the market. Of course they want to get better. The truth is, the Oline will look nothing like it did in '17 in a short order. It is no doubt in the process of being rebuilt.
I also keep seeing Jon Stewarts name mentioned, again, because of his age. This guy was NOT brought in because he is some great back they are looking to make a SB run with. There are many aspects of a rebuild --hardly the least of which is rebuilding the team culture. This is highly likely at least part of the motivation for brining JS in. That signing is not in contradiction to rebuild. Just another avenue of it.
RE: Agreed, I think Emil is on the right track above Â
Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
I keep hearing people say not a rebuild, then react to "tear down" which are not the exact same thing.
I think people are putting too much stock in the Soldier signing. We forget he was not their first choice for Oline, the guard was, despite the fact that the needs for LT were greater than OG. We know they had a priority to rebuild the Oline. There aren't a lot of options for quality young Oline on the market. Of course they want to get better. The truth is, the Oline will look nothing like it did in '17 in a short order. It is no doubt in the process of being rebuilt.
I also keep seeing Jon Stewarts name mentioned, again, because of his age. This guy was NOT brought in because he is some great back they are looking to make a SB run with. There are many aspects of a rebuild --hardly the least of which is rebuilding the team culture. This is highly likely at least part of the motivation for brining JS in. That signing is not in contradiction to rebuild. Just another avenue of it.
Again I hear this mention of Solder as not being the 1st option as if it si relevant. It isn't. If you are in rebuild mode- not caring if you win- you are NOT signing Solder. The Solder signing pointed to the Giants desire to win. They paid an extreme over-the-top amount to sign the 30 year old. If you were in rebuild mode- you go more after a guy like Fleming from the Pats. THAT is "rebuild."
RE: RE: Agreed, I think Emil is on the right track above Â
Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
I suggested on another trhead to go after Hankins. WHat do you think? Can't they afford him now that they lost JPP money and they will eventually not sign a could of others? Hankins is very good - and young.
If not - go after one the free agent CB's? Such as Gaines or Breeland for the right price?
I keep hearing people say not a rebuild, then react to "tear down" which are not the exact same thing.
I think people are putting too much stock in the Soldier signing. We forget he was not their first choice for Oline, the guard was, despite the fact that the needs for LT were greater than OG. We know they had a priority to rebuild the Oline. There aren't a lot of options for quality young Oline on the market. Of course they want to get better. The truth is, the Oline will look nothing like it did in '17 in a short order. It is no doubt in the process of being rebuilt.
I also keep seeing Jon Stewarts name mentioned, again, because of his age. This guy was NOT brought in because he is some great back they are looking to make a SB run with. There are many aspects of a rebuild --hardly the least of which is rebuilding the team culture. This is highly likely at least part of the motivation for brining JS in. That signing is not in contradiction to rebuild. Just another avenue of it.
Again I hear this mention of Solder as not being the 1st option as if it si relevant. It isn't. If you are in rebuild mode- not caring if you win- you are NOT signing Solder. The Solder signing pointed to the Giants desire to win. They paid an extreme over-the-top amount to sign the 30 year old. If you were in rebuild mode- you go more after a guy like Fleming from the Pats. THAT is "rebuild."
If you say so. There is not a team out there "not caring if you(they) win".
RE: RE: RE: Agreed, I think Emil is on the right track above Â
Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
I suggested on another trhead to go after Hankins. WHat do you think? Can't they afford him now that they lost JPP money and they will eventually not sign a could of others? Hankins is very good - and young.
If not - go after one the free agent CB's? Such as Gaines or Breeland for the right price?
I certainly think they can afford him, and they are in need of more DL depth. But I think the question would be, do you want to pay Hankins the money Hankins thinks he is worth for him to be part of a DL rotation? I think Tomlinson is arguably already just as good as Hankins and I think he will be a better more dynamic player than Hankins. You could argue that your starting three DL could be Tomlinson, Snacks, and Hankins, but that might be cost prohibitive over the long run. I think the Giants probably believe they can find another DL to participate in the rotation in the draft at a much cheaper price.
RE: RE: Agreed, I think Emil is on the right track above Â
Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
It's going to be interesting because DG seems to not want to pay his DBs (how does this affect Collins?) and do they view Chubb as a fit in a hybrid scheme when deploying 3-4 looks.
RE: RE: RE: Agreed, I think Emil is on the right track above Â
Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
It's going to be interesting because DG seems to not want to pay his DBs (how does this affect Collins?) and do they view Chubb as a fit in a hybrid scheme when deploying 3-4 looks.
So I'm not convinced yet that Chubb is a hybrid scheme fit. He had an impressive 40 time, but his shuttle and three cone performance give me pause about his lateral/change direction abilities. Eric has been pondering whether Chubb is potentially Terrell Suggs, who had by all accounts a terrible combine. So I don't want to put too much on the combine performance, but it gives me pause. Davenport and Landry make more sense to me as dynamic Edge Rushers in the Giants new scheme.
Completely agree on Gettleman and DBs, but I think the valuation of Collins changes in a Betcher scheme. The SS position is used differently under Betcher's scheme and I would say Collins is ideally suited for what Betcher does. I think the Giants will pay him.
0-Tear-down | 1-Rebuild | 2-Retooling | 3-Going for it/Win-Now
I would put them at a 1. Maybe 1.5.
Yes, they signed an older player to a big contract. But --it was a 4 year deal, not a 1 year deal like we saw a lot of with JR. The line desperately needed to be rebuilt --we should expect revamping of the Oline this year and next. We have a new FO and coaching staff. We are seeing big turnover all across the roster and they are likely not done. The DRC and JPP moves are signs of rebuilding.
Stewart was not brought in to make a run at a superbowl. He's not remotely capable of that. He was brought in to help rebuild the team culture. Rebuilding doesn't happen overnight. There are transitional pieces needed.
It seems like every speculative scenario about the team Â
Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
I suggested on another trhead to go after Hankins. WHat do you think? Can't they afford him now that they lost JPP money and they will eventually not sign a could of others? Hankins is very good - and young.
If not - go after one the free agent CB's? Such as Gaines or Breeland for the right price?
I certainly think they can afford him, and they are in need of more DL depth. But I think the question would be, do you want to pay Hankins the money Hankins thinks he is worth for him to be part of a DL rotation? I think Tomlinson is arguably already just as good as Hankins and I think he will be a better more dynamic player than Hankins. You could argue that your starting three DL could be Tomlinson, Snacks, and Hankins, but that might be cost prohibitive over the long run. I think the Giants probably believe they can find another DL to participate in the rotation in the draft at a much cheaper price.
I am not arguing - but you think Tomlinson is on par with Hankins? I was thinking Hankins would be a force in 3-4. And because he had a down year for him in 2017 he'd be a terrific pickup on a down year. It wouldn't be more than OV to sign him, would it? And in 2019 Giants would have a ton of cap space, so other spots could be filled. Either to start 2020 season or after 2020 season snacks will be gone and they'd have money to pay Tomlinson if need be. A premiere position of DL - you'd have comfortably filled.
You'd still pass?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Agreed, I think Emil is on the right track above Â
Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
I suggested on another trhead to go after Hankins. WHat do you think? Can't they afford him now that they lost JPP money and they will eventually not sign a could of others? Hankins is very good - and young.
If not - go after one the free agent CB's? Such as Gaines or Breeland for the right price?
I certainly think they can afford him, and they are in need of more DL depth. But I think the question would be, do you want to pay Hankins the money Hankins thinks he is worth for him to be part of a DL rotation? I think Tomlinson is arguably already just as good as Hankins and I think he will be a better more dynamic player than Hankins. You could argue that your starting three DL could be Tomlinson, Snacks, and Hankins, but that might be cost prohibitive over the long run. I think the Giants probably believe they can find another DL to participate in the rotation in the draft at a much cheaper price.
I am not arguing - but you think Tomlinson is on par with Hankins? I was thinking Hankins would be a force in 3-4. And because he had a down year for him in 2017 he'd be a terrific pickup on a down year. It wouldn't be more than OV to sign him, would it? And in 2019 Giants would have a ton of cap space, so other spots could be filled. Either to start 2020 season or after 2020 season snacks will be gone and they'd have money to pay Tomlinson if need be. A premiere position of DL - you'd have comfortably filled.
You'd still pass?
Hankins signed with the Colts for a 3 year 27 million dollar contract. It averaged out to roughly 9 mil a year, but the big pay day was up front. Hankins is probably looking for something similar, maybe a little reduced but not much. In now way should the Giants invest somewhere between 7-9 million dollars a year in another DT.
I like Hankins, he would be a great addition. But he will cost too much on a team that needs to fill a lot of holes. The key to filling DTs in the NFL is to draft them. Once they hit FA, their price tag becomes outrageous.
Chubb does not appear to be the quick twitch, explosive off the edge athlete NYG has preferred. But, in a 3-4 OLB role I think his hips and AA is more than good enough. Think about Von Miller's role, D Ware, LT, etc.
Chubb does not appear to be the quick twitch, explosive off the edge athlete NYG has preferred. But, in a 3-4 OLB role I think his hips and AA is more than good enough. Think about Von Miller's role, D Ware, LT, etc.
Playing downhill.
JonC, if you think so then it's good enough to convince me. As you stated, the key is to keep him moving forward. As his 40 time would suggest, he has some closing speed. I wonder what his 10 yd split is.
I would be 100% on board if we are talking Chubb at #5, vice #2.
RE: RE: It is not about whether we WANT to be in rebuild mode... Â
we are a THREE WIN TEAM that has had a piss poor offense for the past few years. If we are not making major changes, then how does anyone think we can compete next year?
If the goal is to win a championship then yeah we have to rebuild. We also have so many holes that I do not see us getting the rest of the team fixed in time for Eli to win another championship here.
Did you forget that the team was built on it's Wide receivers and in particular lost arguably one of the best players in all of football who was a wide receiver and had an awful coach?
Thus 3 win team you mention-- you seriously think DG thinks he can't get in the playoffs with the drafts picks he has along with the signings he has made?
Let me correct you. They lost that WR and after that the offense was completely dead. Even with OBJ, we were close to last in offense.
Next, I don't know what DG thinks. We were one of the worst teams in football and so far, we did not add enough to be a championship team. I dont give a shit about "getting into the playoffs". That is not the goal. If your team is not built to win a championship, then your job is not done.
This team IS in rebuild mode....period.
Getting into the playoffs in 2016 was clearly a mirage Â
They did it simply on the backs of grabbing a lead that was tenuous at best and then playing stand up defense in 4qtr (with some career plays by Landon Collins, Jackrabbit and DRC) down the stretch.
The offense was broken after a few weeks as Eli was losing confidence in the oline, loss of Vereen and taking a nice blow by some Redskin DT. They haven't been seen since.
Getting into the playoffs now should be all about taking the next step, not the ultimate goal. Clean house with removing the overpaid/overvalued vets, bring in some "real" leaders with a voice on sideline and field, and some young hungry talent.
The ultimate goal won't happen until DG/Shurmer say goodbye to Eli and get that next guy under center...
If they go QB It's likeley Eli's last season If they go QB
I was thinking Rosen but I am back to Darnold but I doubt
like hell that the Browns are gonna pass on him so its
Barkley or trade down .
I think DG wants to rebuild, of course, but he also wants to win in '18 (not necessarily the SB, but compete for playoffs). He hates to lose and he's no young pup.
Why would he sign a 29-30 yr old LT to highest contract ever if we were totally in rebuild mode?
Why would he sign a 29-30 yr old RB with a lot of wear on his wheels if we were totally in rebuild mode?
Why would he say he's going with a QB who's 37 yrs old...
They signed Solder and PATRICK OMAMEH. You forgot about him? It slipped your mind?
And you are mentioning FLuker as if he would be some big loss that shows the Giants are rebuilding? Fluker? Really? Laughable. He might turn out to be fine but to bring him up in the context of whether we are rebuilding or not - because we let him go -- it just shows how ridiculous one needs to make a desperate point to try to show Giants are more in rebuild mode. Fluker? c'mon.
I guess it depends on your definition of "rebuild".
Letting 3 oft injured underperforming OL go and be overpaid somewhere else doesn't mean anything re. whether we're rebuilding or not.
With every day that goes by, the more convinced I am that Gettleman is a genius at playing this game. First, he has accepted reality. He recognizes he has a viable starter at QB at what has become below market value. And he has him for two more years. There is no logical reason to cut bait with Eli in 2018, and there is an argument you can stick with him through the end of his contract. This gives Gettleman the luxury of time at the games most important position. He doesn't have to rush and make a decision he is not convinced about.
He has also recognized there is little he can do about the cap in 2018, but he can certainly do a lot about it in 2019. In all likelihood the Giants will have between 50-70 million dollars of cap space to work with in 2019, unless they sign Collins or OBJ to long term contracts early.
The reality is Gettleman doesn't have to blow it up much more than he already has. Cutting JPP gave him a lot of options in 2019. But, if Gettleman wants to create a mountain of cap space in 2019, the Giants can cut ties with Eli, Jenkins, and Vernon with minimal financial ramifications. Don't be surprised if Vernon is a candidate for trade in 2019.
A few days before the JPP trade I said that what I believe Gettleman is doing is preparing and crafting a team that will support a transition to a new QB. Unless Cleveland passes on Darnold, which I don't think they will, I don't think Gettleman believes that QB has to be drafted this year. I think Gettleman believes he has two years to play with at the QB position, 2018 and 2019, if he needs to. 2018 is about putting a competent OL in place, transitioning to a new defense, and signing the talent the team wants to keep.
I don't believe Gettleman is as focused on "have to get the QB" as the pundits think he should be. I would assume he fears the David Carr scenario, as much as he fears picking the wrong QB or not having one. Take a talented QB and put him on an incomplete team and you may ruin his progression. It's just as bad as taking the wrong QB, and even worse than not taking one. If Gettleman can fix the OL, keep OBJ, and bring a running game to the offense, then your chances of a young QB having sustained success increase dramatically.
If the goal is to win a championship then yeah we have to rebuild. We also have so many holes that I do not see us getting the rest of the team fixed in time for Eli to win another championship here.
Did you forget that the team was built on it's Wide receivers and in particular lost arguably one of the best players in all of football who was a wide receiver and had an awful coach?
Thus 3 win team you mention-- you seriously think DG thinks he can't get in the playoffs with the drafts picks he has along with the signings he has made?
With every day that goes by, the more convinced I am that Gettleman is a genius at playing this game. First, he has accepted reality. He recognizes he has a viable starter at QB at what has become below market value. And he has him for two more years. There is no logical reason to cut bait with Eli in 2018, and there is an argument you can stick with him through the end of his contract. This gives Gettleman the luxury of time at the games most important position. He doesn't have to rush and make a decision he is not convinced about.
He has also recognized there is little he can do about the cap in 2018, but he can certainly do a lot about it in 2019. In all likelihood the Giants will have between 50-70 million dollars of cap space to work with in 2019, unless they sign Collins or OBJ to long term contracts early.
The reality is Gettleman doesn't have to blow it up much more than he already has. Cutting JPP gave him a lot of options in 2019. But, if Gettleman wants to create a mountain of cap space in 2019, the Giants can cut ties with Eli, Jenkins, and Vernon with minimal financial ramifications. Don't be surprised if Vernon is a candidate for trade in 2019.
A few days before the JPP trade I said that what I believe Gettleman is doing is preparing and crafting a team that will support a transition to a new QB. Unless Cleveland passes on Darnold, which I don't think they will, I don't think Gettleman believes that QB has to be drafted this year. I think Gettleman believes he has two years to play with at the QB position, 2018 and 2019, if he needs to. 2018 is about putting a competent OL in place, transitioning to a new defense, and signing the talent the team wants to keep.
I don't believe Gettleman is as focused on "have to get the QB" as the pundits think he should be. I would assume he fears the David Carr scenario, as much as he fears picking the wrong QB or not having one. Take a talented QB and put him on an incomplete team and you may ruin his progression. It's just as bad as taking the wrong QB, and even worse than not taking one. If Gettleman can fix the OL, keep OBJ, and bring a running game to the offense, then your chances of a young QB having sustained success increase dramatically.
Excuse me, I meant trading JPP, not cutting him.
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In comment 13882062 giantstock said:
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1--- They kept Eli
2-- They overpaid for Solder
You don't overpay for Solder and keep Eli if you are in rebuild mode.
Solder is the key. Explain why you'd so vastly overpay for Solder if you are rebuilding?
Though i would like the idea of rebuilding and then taking the QB.
Eli has a no trade clause. Soldier was NOT their first choice. He was the fall back option after their top guy got away and he was the top remaining Oline at the time. They are serious about rebuilding the line, but that doesn't mean they don't believe this team needs an overhaul. How many players have they cut, traded, or neglected to resign? Plenty so far, and I doubt they're done. And it may not all happen this year.
1-- They could have let Eli go. Then assured they'd stink again.
2-- What difference does it make that Solder "was the fall back position? They SIGNED him. They SIGNED him and GROSSLY overpaid for him. And he's up there in age. He is NOT a "rebuild" signing.
3-- What is your point about how many players have they neglected to sign and how many have they cut from a 3-13 team? Are you saying many of the players deserved to be resigned after such as sparkling 3-13 season?
Solder is probably the most necessary component for a rebuild. You never want your young qb to be without a good left tackle, so when Rosen takes over in 19, he will now have one. It is silly to have a young qb without blindside protection if you want your qb to not only succeed, but to say alive.
Rebuild, remake, retool...whatever...call it what you will, but it shouldn't come as a surprise that a team that won three games last year is going to experience some radical changes, beginning with a new GM and HC. Did anyone think they were hired to "stay the course?"
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and let Pugh, Richburg, and Fluker all walk.
They signed Solder and PATRICK OMAMEH. You forgot about him? It slipped your mind?
And you are mentioning FLuker as if he would be some big loss that shows the Giants are rebuilding? Fluker? Really? Laughable. He might turn out to be fine but to bring him up in the context of whether we are rebuilding or not - because we let him go -- it just shows how ridiculous one needs to make a desperate point to try to show Giants are more in rebuild mode. Fluker? c'mon.
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Just words...
Rebuild, remake, retool...whatever...call it what you will, but it shouldn't come as a surprise that a team that won three games last year is going to experience some radical changes, beginning with a new GM and HC. Did anyone think they were hired to "stay the course?"
The reason why this place had become a joke over the last six years is because we did "stay the course," and our owner was unable to make the hard choices that was necessary for success. So, instead we had a year by year piecemeal dismantling of a once successful regime that had completely ran its course. That Mara tried to heal that by making about one big change a year, completely screwed the franchise and Eli. Imagine how different things would be if Mara made the wholesale change after 2013 or 2014? That he fired Gilbride in 2013, Coughlin in 2015 and Reese in 2017 is the reason why we are in the position we are in now. No more half-measures and I hope that is the lesson Mara learned from the last six seasons.
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and let Pugh, Richburg, and Fluker all walk.
I guess it depends on your definition of "rebuild".
Letting 3 oft injured underperforming OL go and be overpaid somewhere else doesn't mean anything re. whether we're rebuilding or not.
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In comment 13881860 UESBLUE said:
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Eli figure in this rebuild/tear it down strategy?
He can't really be cut this year so play 2018, teach whoever is behind him, and then move on. I think that's the play regardless of "win now" vs. "rebuild".
Is he really gonna be content being a teacher/placeholder? i seem to recall him saying that was not the case?
If he feels any discontent he can just take a look at his massive paycheck. I'm sure he will be fine.
They're not doing all the above right now, much of it is underway but the big pieces remain for next offeason, eg, Eli, OV, and so on are able to be removed from the books if they choose.
I don't know how anyone looks at the moves so far and declares a full rebuild takes less than 2-3 offseasons to complete.
This gives Gettleman the luxury of time at the games most important position. He doesn't have to rush and make a decision he is not convinced about.
In all likelihood the Giants will have between 50-70 million dollars of cap space to work with in 2019, unless they sign Collins or OBJ to long term contracts early.
A few days before the JPP trade I said that what I believe Gettleman is doing is preparing and crafting a team that will support a transition to a new QB. Unless Cleveland passes on Darnold, which I don't think they will, I don't think Gettleman believes that QB has to be drafted this year. I think Gettleman believes he has two years to play with at the QB position, 2018 and 2019, if he needs to. 2018 is about putting a competent OL in place, transitioning to a new defense, and signing the talent the team wants to keep.
I don't believe Gettleman is as focused on "have to get the QB" as the pundits think he should be. I would assume he fears the David Carr scenario, as much as he fears picking the wrong QB or not having one. Take a talented QB and put him on an incomplete team and you may ruin his progression. It's just as bad as taking the wrong QB, and even worse than not taking one. If Gettleman can fix the OL, keep OBJ, and bring a running game to the offense, then your chances of a young QB having sustained success increase dramatically.
And if he is under the belief that he doesn't "need" the QB -- he had better be certain he can get one. Philly is a long term powerhouse. Cowboys still look strong. You mess up not getting a good QB - chances are you will fail.
And a final point. If the Giants have a ton of cap money in 2019 along with if they draft a pretty good offensive lineman in 2018, wouldn't DG have to be terribly incompetent if his offensive line wasn't any good, EVEN IF HE SIGNED A QB WITH THE 1ST PICK THIS YEAR?
DG can have a ton of cap space next year and he has good draft pick availability this year. If ever there were a team to set up a young QB for the future- it would be currently a team like the Giants.
It makes little sense to NOT take the QB unless they really don't like who it is that becomes/will likely become available or they love Webb. This team is setup to be built for a young QB for a long time in the future. This upcoming year they are just 1 OL away from being at worst "decent." With OBJ the O-Line nor the QB NEEDS to be top tier.
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In comment 13882088 UberAlias said:
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and let Pugh, Richburg, and Fluker all walk.
I guess it depends on your definition of "rebuild".
Letting 3 oft injured underperforming OL go and be overpaid somewhere else doesn't mean anything re. whether we're rebuilding or not.
They let a lot of guys go. Here is over 30% of the roster: JPP, DRC, Vereen, Pugh, K Robinson, Fluker, Castillas, Richburg, Cockrell, Dawkwa, Sheppard, Ayers, Bromley, T King, Berhe, Kennard
On a 3-13 team. So what's your point?
Now, I would not be shocked if in 2019, the Giants cut all big contracts and put rookies & 2nd year players (2018 draft types) & 3rd year players into the starting roles.
Bye-bye to Eli (gulp); Vernon (contract); Rabbit at CB (contract); and, OBJ walks in UFA as we decide not to tag him - we'd easily land a #3 draft pick for him. OBJ only walks if his attitude merits a walk OR his play goes down due to injury & such.
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In comment 13882274 Dr. D said:
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In comment 13882088 UberAlias said:
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and let Pugh, Richburg, and Fluker all walk.
I guess it depends on your definition of "rebuild".
Letting 3 oft injured underperforming OL go and be overpaid somewhere else doesn't mean anything re. whether we're rebuilding or not.
They let a lot of guys go. Here is over 30% of the roster: JPP, DRC, Vereen, Pugh, K Robinson, Fluker, Castillas, Richburg, Cockrell, Dawkwa, Sheppard, Ayers, Bromley, T King, Berhe, Kennard
On a 3-13 team. So what's your point?
I'm not so sure why so many think the giants are in a full rebuild mode either. They've upgraded the offensive line and LB core. They are getting one of the top players in all of football back. And they aren't done yet and they'll have a good set of draft picks to choose from and a ton of money to spend next year.It is ridiculous ot believe all of this means Giants are in full rebuild mode.
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But this roster needs to be rebuilt. The talent, the culture, etc. Coming off a 3 win season I'm not sure why this would be so objectionable to many.
I'm not so sure why so many think the giants are in a full rebuild mode either. They've upgraded the offensive line and LB core. They are getting one of the top players in all of football back. And they aren't done yet and they'll have a good set of draft picks to choose from and a ton of money to spend next year.It is ridiculous ot believe all of this means Giants are in full rebuild mode.
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In comment 13882361 UberAlias said:
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In comment 13882274 Dr. D said:
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In comment 13882088 UberAlias said:
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and let Pugh, Richburg, and Fluker all walk.
I guess it depends on your definition of "rebuild".
Letting 3 oft injured underperforming OL go and be overpaid somewhere else doesn't mean anything re. whether we're rebuilding or not.
They let a lot of guys go. Here is over 30% of the roster: JPP, DRC, Vereen, Pugh, K Robinson, Fluker, Castillas, Richburg, Cockrell, Dawkwa, Sheppard, Ayers, Bromley, T King, Berhe, Kennard
On a 3-13 team. So what's your point?
Its pretty clear if you read the thread. I responded to a post saying " Not in rebuild mode - that's ridiculous" You are right, 3-13. So why would it be ridiculous? The roster and culture need to be rebuilt.
HAsn't the team already been heavily rebuilt from coaching to getting back OBJ to a rebuilt line to a rebuilt LB core? OBJ coming back is huge along with a rebuilt O-Line. Juuist need one more OLineman.
Although, a rebuild may include drafting your QB-of-the-future now, with that #2 pick. We'll just have to wait and see what DG does.
No - the bets move is if theylike the QB at 2 - you take him. By next year - 2019 you should have a sold OLine built which means the QB you've taken - he is no doubt highly talented- can grow in a steady manner. Then you can go crazy building up the defense while having a talented cheap QB for several years.
He should not and that is the point.
We see it every year specifically to the draft, eg.
We see it every year specifically to the draft, eg.
JonC, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think the problem is fans tend to equate rebuild with tank. Gettleman is not tanking. He is trying to put a competitive product on the field in 2018, for a full rebuild in 2019 around the future of the franchise. You can rebuild without tanking.
I agree with this take. Makes the most sense.
I think people are putting too much stock in the Soldier signing. We forget he was not their first choice for Oline, the guard was, despite the fact that the needs for LT were greater than OG. We know they had a priority to rebuild the Oline. There aren't a lot of options for quality young Oline on the market. Of course they want to get better. The truth is, the Oline will look nothing like it did in '17 in a short order. It is no doubt in the process of being rebuilt.
I also keep seeing Jon Stewarts name mentioned, again, because of his age. This guy was NOT brought in because he is some great back they are looking to make a SB run with. There are many aspects of a rebuild --hardly the least of which is rebuilding the team culture. This is highly likely at least part of the motivation for brining JS in. That signing is not in contradiction to rebuild. Just another avenue of it.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
I think people are putting too much stock in the Soldier signing. We forget he was not their first choice for Oline, the guard was, despite the fact that the needs for LT were greater than OG. We know they had a priority to rebuild the Oline. There aren't a lot of options for quality young Oline on the market. Of course they want to get better. The truth is, the Oline will look nothing like it did in '17 in a short order. It is no doubt in the process of being rebuilt.
I also keep seeing Jon Stewarts name mentioned, again, because of his age. This guy was NOT brought in because he is some great back they are looking to make a SB run with. There are many aspects of a rebuild --hardly the least of which is rebuilding the team culture. This is highly likely at least part of the motivation for brining JS in. That signing is not in contradiction to rebuild. Just another avenue of it.
Again I hear this mention of Solder as not being the 1st option as if it si relevant. It isn't. If you are in rebuild mode- not caring if you win- you are NOT signing Solder. The Solder signing pointed to the Giants desire to win. They paid an extreme over-the-top amount to sign the 30 year old. If you were in rebuild mode- you go more after a guy like Fleming from the Pats. THAT is "rebuild."
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Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
I suggested on another trhead to go after Hankins. WHat do you think? Can't they afford him now that they lost JPP money and they will eventually not sign a could of others? Hankins is very good - and young.
If not - go after one the free agent CB's? Such as Gaines or Breeland for the right price?
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I keep hearing people say not a rebuild, then react to "tear down" which are not the exact same thing.
I think people are putting too much stock in the Soldier signing. We forget he was not their first choice for Oline, the guard was, despite the fact that the needs for LT were greater than OG. We know they had a priority to rebuild the Oline. There aren't a lot of options for quality young Oline on the market. Of course they want to get better. The truth is, the Oline will look nothing like it did in '17 in a short order. It is no doubt in the process of being rebuilt.
I also keep seeing Jon Stewarts name mentioned, again, because of his age. This guy was NOT brought in because he is some great back they are looking to make a SB run with. There are many aspects of a rebuild --hardly the least of which is rebuilding the team culture. This is highly likely at least part of the motivation for brining JS in. That signing is not in contradiction to rebuild. Just another avenue of it.
Again I hear this mention of Solder as not being the 1st option as if it si relevant. It isn't. If you are in rebuild mode- not caring if you win- you are NOT signing Solder. The Solder signing pointed to the Giants desire to win. They paid an extreme over-the-top amount to sign the 30 year old. If you were in rebuild mode- you go more after a guy like Fleming from the Pats. THAT is "rebuild."
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In comment 13882384 JonC said:
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Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
I suggested on another trhead to go after Hankins. WHat do you think? Can't they afford him now that they lost JPP money and they will eventually not sign a could of others? Hankins is very good - and young.
If not - go after one the free agent CB's? Such as Gaines or Breeland for the right price?
I certainly think they can afford him, and they are in need of more DL depth. But I think the question would be, do you want to pay Hankins the money Hankins thinks he is worth for him to be part of a DL rotation? I think Tomlinson is arguably already just as good as Hankins and I think he will be a better more dynamic player than Hankins. You could argue that your starting three DL could be Tomlinson, Snacks, and Hankins, but that might be cost prohibitive over the long run. I think the Giants probably believe they can find another DL to participate in the rotation in the draft at a much cheaper price.
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Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
It's going to be interesting because DG seems to not want to pay his DBs (how does this affect Collins?) and do they view Chubb as a fit in a hybrid scheme when deploying 3-4 looks.
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In comment 13882384 JonC said:
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Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
It's going to be interesting because DG seems to not want to pay his DBs (how does this affect Collins?) and do they view Chubb as a fit in a hybrid scheme when deploying 3-4 looks.
So I'm not convinced yet that Chubb is a hybrid scheme fit. He had an impressive 40 time, but his shuttle and three cone performance give me pause about his lateral/change direction abilities. Eric has been pondering whether Chubb is potentially Terrell Suggs, who had by all accounts a terrible combine. So I don't want to put too much on the combine performance, but it gives me pause. Davenport and Landry make more sense to me as dynamic Edge Rushers in the Giants new scheme.
Completely agree on Gettleman and DBs, but I think the valuation of Collins changes in a Betcher scheme. The SS position is used differently under Betcher's scheme and I would say Collins is ideally suited for what Betcher does. I think the Giants will pay him.
I would put them at a 1. Maybe 1.5.
Yes, they signed an older player to a big contract. But --it was a 4 year deal, not a 1 year deal like we saw a lot of with JR. The line desperately needed to be rebuilt --we should expect revamping of the Oline this year and next. We have a new FO and coaching staff. We are seeing big turnover all across the roster and they are likely not done. The DRC and JPP moves are signs of rebuilding.
Stewart was not brought in to make a run at a superbowl. He's not remotely capable of that. He was brought in to help rebuild the team culture. Rebuilding doesn't happen overnight. There are transitional pieces needed.
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In comment 13882550 Emil said:
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In comment 13882384 JonC said:
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Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
I suggested on another trhead to go after Hankins. WHat do you think? Can't they afford him now that they lost JPP money and they will eventually not sign a could of others? Hankins is very good - and young.
If not - go after one the free agent CB's? Such as Gaines or Breeland for the right price?
I certainly think they can afford him, and they are in need of more DL depth. But I think the question would be, do you want to pay Hankins the money Hankins thinks he is worth for him to be part of a DL rotation? I think Tomlinson is arguably already just as good as Hankins and I think he will be a better more dynamic player than Hankins. You could argue that your starting three DL could be Tomlinson, Snacks, and Hankins, but that might be cost prohibitive over the long run. I think the Giants probably believe they can find another DL to participate in the rotation in the draft at a much cheaper price.
I am not arguing - but you think Tomlinson is on par with Hankins? I was thinking Hankins would be a force in 3-4. And because he had a down year for him in 2017 he'd be a terrific pickup on a down year. It wouldn't be more than OV to sign him, would it? And in 2019 Giants would have a ton of cap space, so other spots could be filled. Either to start 2020 season or after 2020 season snacks will be gone and they'd have money to pay Tomlinson if need be. A premiere position of DL - you'd have comfortably filled.
You'd still pass?
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In comment 13882566 giantstock said:
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In comment 13882550 Emil said:
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In comment 13882384 JonC said:
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Keeping Eli, signing Solder, moving out JPP and re-working the defense all demonstrates they're not going full rebuild right now. They're still trying to field the best team they can in 2018, with an eye towards making moves that rip up more of the foundation in 2019.
Jon, I would add that I don't see Jenkins and OV on the team next year. Jenkins will be 30 next year and cutting him would add 9.25 million in cap space according to over the cap. OV will be 29 and cutting or trading him would add 11.5 million in cap space.
Watch this years draft. I think edge rusher/DL and CB will be taken in rounds 1-3. Gettleman values both positions and will look to add young, inexpensive talent that will be ready to take over for Vernon and Jenkins in 2019.
Just my thoughts.
I suggested on another trhead to go after Hankins. WHat do you think? Can't they afford him now that they lost JPP money and they will eventually not sign a could of others? Hankins is very good - and young.
If not - go after one the free agent CB's? Such as Gaines or Breeland for the right price?
I certainly think they can afford him, and they are in need of more DL depth. But I think the question would be, do you want to pay Hankins the money Hankins thinks he is worth for him to be part of a DL rotation? I think Tomlinson is arguably already just as good as Hankins and I think he will be a better more dynamic player than Hankins. You could argue that your starting three DL could be Tomlinson, Snacks, and Hankins, but that might be cost prohibitive over the long run. I think the Giants probably believe they can find another DL to participate in the rotation in the draft at a much cheaper price.
I am not arguing - but you think Tomlinson is on par with Hankins? I was thinking Hankins would be a force in 3-4. And because he had a down year for him in 2017 he'd be a terrific pickup on a down year. It wouldn't be more than OV to sign him, would it? And in 2019 Giants would have a ton of cap space, so other spots could be filled. Either to start 2020 season or after 2020 season snacks will be gone and they'd have money to pay Tomlinson if need be. A premiere position of DL - you'd have comfortably filled.
You'd still pass?
Hankins signed with the Colts for a 3 year 27 million dollar contract. It averaged out to roughly 9 mil a year, but the big pay day was up front. Hankins is probably looking for something similar, maybe a little reduced but not much. In now way should the Giants invest somewhere between 7-9 million dollars a year in another DT.
I like Hankins, he would be a great addition. But he will cost too much on a team that needs to fill a lot of holes. The key to filling DTs in the NFL is to draft them. Once they hit FA, their price tag becomes outrageous.
Playing downhill.
Playing downhill.
JonC, if you think so then it's good enough to convince me. As you stated, the key is to keep him moving forward. As his 40 time would suggest, he has some closing speed. I wonder what his 10 yd split is.
I would be 100% on board if we are talking Chubb at #5, vice #2.
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we are a THREE WIN TEAM that has had a piss poor offense for the past few years. If we are not making major changes, then how does anyone think we can compete next year?
If the goal is to win a championship then yeah we have to rebuild. We also have so many holes that I do not see us getting the rest of the team fixed in time for Eli to win another championship here.
Did you forget that the team was built on it's Wide receivers and in particular lost arguably one of the best players in all of football who was a wide receiver and had an awful coach?
Thus 3 win team you mention-- you seriously think DG thinks he can't get in the playoffs with the drafts picks he has along with the signings he has made?
Let me correct you. They lost that WR and after that the offense was completely dead. Even with OBJ, we were close to last in offense.
Next, I don't know what DG thinks. We were one of the worst teams in football and so far, we did not add enough to be a championship team. I dont give a shit about "getting into the playoffs". That is not the goal. If your team is not built to win a championship, then your job is not done.
This team IS in rebuild mode....period.
The offense was broken after a few weeks as Eli was losing confidence in the oline, loss of Vereen and taking a nice blow by some Redskin DT. They haven't been seen since.
Getting into the playoffs now should be all about taking the next step, not the ultimate goal. Clean house with removing the overpaid/overvalued vets, bring in some "real" leaders with a voice on sideline and field, and some young hungry talent.
The ultimate goal won't happen until DG/Shurmer say goodbye to Eli and get that next guy under center...
I was thinking Rosen but I am back to Darnold but I doubt
like hell that the Browns are gonna pass on him so its
Barkley or trade down .