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Quenton Nelson Makes Me Want To Draft A Guard At 2.

Brown Recluse : 3/23/2018 9:58 am
He's not a QB. He's not a sexy RB. But he's just really really good.



And I don't buy the line about how Guards aren't valuable enough to rate a #2 pick. Guards aren't drafted that high because generally - there aren't any at the top of the draft class. It's a matter of talent - not the position.

How can a position as instrumental in protecting the QB and powering the running game - especially in short yardage and goal line situations - not be considered valuable enough for a top pick? If you aren't trying to move down the field and score touchdowns from the 1 yard line instead of kicking field goals - then what are you doing?

This guy isn't just a good player. He is dominant. He cannot be bullrushed. He absorbs impact like a brick wall. He doesn't just hold defenders long enough for the RB to squeeze through the line for 5 yards. He bull-dozes them backwards and takes them out of the play completely, blowing open the kind of holes that net your RB big yardage.

You cannot simply *find* players like this in later rounds. It has happened occasionally through luck, more than anything else.

This is exactly what this team needs.

I'm not saying he's my pick. Honestly, I won't be upset no matter what happens. I'm sure Gettleman will do whatever is best suited to his plan (whatever that is). But if the Giants aren't in love with these QB's, and Gettleman is really looking for a *future hall of famer* as he has stated - Nelson has to be in the conversation. I don't care if its never happened.

Obligatory highlight reel below. Some of you might find OL highlights boring, but if you like violence you will enjoy this.







Quenton Nelson 2017 Highlights - ( New Window )
I want him at 5!  
Carl in CT : 3/23/2018 10:02 am : link
Or a trade down with Buffalo and back up to the colts spot #6.
I'm with you...  
Chris684 : 3/23/2018 10:03 am : link
Outside of Barkley, he's the best and one I want the most.

Mayock was gushing last night about his workout at ND pro day. Called it the best OL pro day he's ever seen in his life.

For a team that is starved for OL talent, leadership and a nasty attitude. Nelson checks about every box.
Couldn't Agree More  
wonderback : 3/23/2018 10:10 am : link
Don't know if he's the real deal. I'll leave that up to the talent evaluators but like Brown Recluse said, if he's the goods, playing guard makes me want him even more not less. Considering how leaderless this Oline has been, it would be nice to have a nasty, road grader type opening holes for us.

I hope he's as good as advertised and I hope we get him.
RE: I want him at 5!  
Section331 : 3/23/2018 10:13 am : link
In comment 13881962 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
Or a trade down with Buffalo and back up to the colts spot #6.


Rumors are that Denver will take him at 5. Unless you can make a deal with Denver (I doubt they would trade up to take Nelson), you have to go with Gettleman's admonition of not over-thinking things and take QN at 2.
I want him  
UConn4523 : 3/23/2018 10:14 am : link
not at 2 though. Just bad value, don't really care how you want to spin it.
No thanks to Nelson  
giantstock : 3/23/2018 10:24 am : link
Offensive lines are best used as a unit- not individual. Secondly, when you get into the playoffs inevitably you're going to run into a defense that shuts down the offense. The point is-- Nelson's strengths as a guard in the playoffs every year is shown to be minimized.

You can close your eyes and keep tapping your heels and pretend guards are as valuable as other positions as QB's but your just ignoring reality. Nelson won't be able it impact the playoffs as much as QB or other positions.
RE: I want him  
Section331 : 3/23/2018 10:26 am : link
In comment 13881999 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
not at 2 though. Just bad value, don't really care how you want to spin it.


Not if he's a HOF-level player. If you can plug in an all-pro level guy on your OL for the next 10 years, that solves a lot of problems. Again, I'd prefer to trade down a couple of spots, but you do risk missing out on him.
RE: RE: I want him  
UConn4523 : 3/23/2018 10:33 am : link
In comment 13882051 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13881999 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


not at 2 though. Just bad value, don't really care how you want to spin it.



Not if he's a HOF-level player. If you can plug in an all-pro level guy on your OL for the next 10 years, that solves a lot of problems. Again, I'd prefer to trade down a couple of spots, but you do risk missing out on him.


I really don't care about this whole "gold jacket" thing. There are 0 sure things, he could get injured, leave in FA, etc. The point is Guards can be had elsewhere in the draft or in FA without paying top dollar. Spending your shiny new #2 overall pick on a Guard manes no sense at all.
RE: No thanks to Nelson  
Brown Recluse : 3/23/2018 10:34 am : link
In comment 13882043 giantstock said:
Quote:
Offensive lines are best used as a unit- not individual. Secondly, when you get into the playoffs inevitably you're going to run into a defense that shuts down the offense. The point is-- Nelson's strengths as a guard in the playoffs every year is shown to be minimized.

You can close your eyes and keep tapping your heels and pretend guards are as valuable as other positions as QB's but your just ignoring reality. Nelson won't be able it impact the playoffs as much as QB or other positions.


Your post is confusing. How would his strengths be minimized in the playoffs? He's there to make the offense go.

You are talking about, potentially, a perennial All-Pro protecting your QB and leading your RB to daylight for possibly over a decade.

The Giants were about to make Andrew Norwell the highest paid offensive lineman in history, so they've already shown that they aren't afraid to invest highly at that position.
Why take him at 2  
Beer Man : 3/23/2018 10:53 am : link
when you can trade back a few slots and still take him?
RE: RE: RE: I want him  
wonderback : 3/23/2018 10:54 am : link
In comment 13882069 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13882051 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13881999 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


not at 2 though. Just bad value, don't really care how you want to spin it.



Not if he's a HOF-level player. If you can plug in an all-pro level guy on your OL for the next 10 years, that solves a lot of problems. Again, I'd prefer to trade down a couple of spots, but you do risk missing out on him.



I really don't care about this whole "gold jacket" thing. There are 0 sure things, he could get injured, leave in FA, etc. The point is Guards can be had elsewhere in the draft or in FA without paying top dollar. Spending your shiny new #2 overall pick on a Guard manes no sense at all.


If that's true, how come we haven't found one yet?
I’d be happy  
bradshaw44 : 3/23/2018 10:56 am : link
We need line help and his value is there to boot.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I want him  
UConn4523 : 3/23/2018 11:02 am : link
In comment 13882135 wonderback said:
Quote:
In comment 13882069 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13882051 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13881999 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


not at 2 though. Just bad value, don't really care how you want to spin it.



Not if he's a HOF-level player. If you can plug in an all-pro level guy on your OL for the next 10 years, that solves a lot of problems. Again, I'd prefer to trade down a couple of spots, but you do risk missing out on him.



I really don't care about this whole "gold jacket" thing. There are 0 sure things, he could get injured, leave in FA, etc. The point is Guards can be had elsewhere in the draft or in FA without paying top dollar. Spending your shiny new #2 overall pick on a Guard manes no sense at all.



If that's true, how come we haven't found one yet?


Because we had a bunch of morons running things. Why bother trying to justify or compare the last few years of the Reese regime to what we will do moving forward?

Even if it was that rare to find a Guard it’s simply a position that’s less important the QB and DE as far as the #2 pick goes.
Anyone ever hear the phrase  
Chris684 : 3/23/2018 11:08 am : link
Running games travel well? That's how you go into places like Philadelphia, Green Bay and Seattle late in December and January and win games.
RE: RE: RE: I want him  
Section331 : 3/23/2018 11:10 am : link
In comment 13882069 UConn4523 said:
Quote:

I really don't care about this whole "gold jacket" thing. There are 0 sure things, he could get injured, leave in FA, etc. The point is Guards can be had elsewhere in the draft or in FA without paying top dollar. Spending your shiny new #2 overall pick on a Guard manes no sense at all.


Well anyone can get injured. If LT had a career ending injury in year 2 or 3, does that make him a bad pick? And sure, there is no certainty that he will become that HOF level guy, but you have to trust your evaluation process. Relying on FA is how we got into this situation to begin with.

If you think QN is the only HOF-level guy in the draft, and trading down is too risky, you take him at 2.
RE: Couldn't Agree More  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 3/23/2018 11:14 am : link
In comment 13881985 wonderback said:
Quote:
Don't know if he's the real deal. I'll leave that up to the talent evaluators but like Brown Recluse said, if he's the goods, playing guard makes me want him even more not less. Considering how leaderless this Oline has been, it would be nice to have a nasty, road grader type opening holes for us.

I hope he's as good as advertised and I hope we get him.


Accorsi could build a line with high character guys and leadership, Snee, McKenzie, Diehl, OHara. Previous regime, not so much.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/23/2018 11:15 am : link
I'm just gonna keep posting my 4 player list.

Rosen
Barkley
Nelson
Fitzpatrick

Must come away with one of these 4 guys in the first round.

If we don't, we fucked up.
RE: RE: RE: I want him  
Brown Recluse : 3/23/2018 11:16 am : link
In comment 13882069 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13882051 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13881999 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


not at 2 though. Just bad value, don't really care how you want to spin it.



Not if he's a HOF-level player. If you can plug in an all-pro level guy on your OL for the next 10 years, that solves a lot of problems. Again, I'd prefer to trade down a couple of spots, but you do risk missing out on him.



I really don't care about this whole "gold jacket" thing. There are 0 sure things, he could get injured, leave in FA, etc. The point is Guards can be had elsewhere in the draft or in FA without paying top dollar. Spending your shiny new #2 overall pick on a Guard manes no sense at all.


Not to be an ass, but...thats kind of a broad brush response. Any player can get injured. Any player can leave. Any position can theoretically be found in later rounds, if you're lucky - which most teams aren't considering how quickly the success rate plummets deeper in the draft. That can be applied to any position and therefore doesn't disprove that Guards specifically aren't valuable enough - given the talent.

Also, as I stated earlier - the Giants have already tried to pay top dollar for a Guard, which would indicate that they do see the value.

Personally, I don't see what could make more sense than fixing things like this:


And things like this:



They seem pretty impotant to winning.
RE: .  
Brown Recluse : 3/23/2018 11:23 am : link
In comment 13882176 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I'm just gonna keep posting my 4 player list.

Rosen
Barkley
Nelson
Fitzpatrick

Must come away with one of these 4 guys in the first round.

If we don't, we fucked up.


Agreed!
Heard a good interview with Greg Cosell  
Giantfan in skinland : 3/23/2018 11:34 am : link
talking about Nelson and taking him high in the draft. He discussed his view that valuation along the OL is changing because of the different ways NFL defenses are attacking. He felt the distinction between LT and RT is basically non-existent at this point (yikes, Flowers) and that even the interior guys are basically just as important in pass protection as tackles once were. Argued that more and more, defenses are attacking with five across, which basically puts every OL in iso situation with a pass rusher (and teams more and more are sliding pass rushers into the interior). So basically, his view is that LT, RT, G, he is more and more open to just taking top OL talent high regardless of position.
.....  
Micko : 3/23/2018 11:35 am : link
Again, assuming they believe Webb is the future, I love the idea of a trade down to 4 or 5 to accumulate draft picks and then pick Nelson. Hopefully grab more OL and a RB and all of a sudden you go from a shit offensive line to a team strength w/ new blood at RB. You could in theory fix the offense very quickly.
If he's going to be a perenial All-Pro, and starter for  
PatersonPlank : 3/23/2018 11:37 am : link
10 years, he's a great pick at #2, #5, #10, or #12. Right now we have one pick in the 1st, if he's the right guy for us then grab him. Personally I don't buy this train of thought that only certain positions can be taken at certain picks. It wouldn't be unprecedented, but yes its rare.

Mike Munchak was taken at #8 (10 time All-Pro)
Brandon Scherff was taken at #5
John Hannah was #4
Tom Mack was #2

I'm just saying it shouldn't be dismissed lightly if he really is that good.
If your QB was 30 and not 37  
Rflairr : 3/23/2018 11:46 am : link
You could think like that
Another thing to keep in mind  
Chris684 : 3/23/2018 11:48 am : link
is look at what an established Pro Bowl interior OL like Norwell costs in FA.

If the value is going to increase in the open market. The value should increase via the draft as well.
RE: .  
MetsAreBack : 3/23/2018 11:49 am : link
In comment 13882176 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I'm just gonna keep posting my 4 player list.

Rosen
Barkley
Nelson
Fitzpatrick

Must come away with one of these 4 guys in the first round.

If we don't, we fucked up.


I'm sure you've said this elsewhere and I missed it - what concerns you about Darnold?
I'd feel a lot better taking him #5  
MetsAreBack : 3/23/2018 11:53 am : link
because that's probably where he should go... but who knows if Denver is even interested in a trade or if they're content to roll with Keenum, a strong defense and good running game (if they take Nelson for themselves)

Trading with the Bills... and then trying to get back into the top 8... will probably be tough and likely ends up not gaining us much in draft pick assets anyway.
RE: If your QB was 30 and not 37  
Brown Recluse : 3/23/2018 11:57 am : link
In comment 13882258 Rflairr said:
Quote:
You could think like that


Hence the, "if the Giants aren't in love with any of these QB's"
Finding OL talent in the draft is becoming more and more  
Rjanyg : 3/23/2018 11:59 am : link
difficult. They are not being developed because of the spread offenses. Notre Dame has 2 guys that look to be plug in pros and it is not an accident. Nelson is my favorite player in the draft. If Denver wants to trade up to 2 and we take Nelson at 5 and get 2-3 more picks this year and next then it is a very, very smart move by DG IMO.

Nelson, best OL in the draft, 2nd best player in the draft ( behind Barkley ) helps in the rebuild of the O Line, High character guy. Fixing the O Line helps the passing game, the running game, goalline and short yardage, time of possession and TOP helps keep the Defense on the sideline.

If you don't think a dominant guard is important then you don't understand football.
RE: If your QB was 30 and not 37  
MojoEd : 3/23/2018 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13882258 Rflairr said:
Quote:
You could think like that


I have heard that thought with respect to LT Solder signing was short sighted because of his age. Then I remembered how many young QBs’ psyches and careers were ruined behind porous O-lines. I remember when NYG put Dave Brown in the end of a blow out loss to DAL; Jimmy Johnson blitzed him on every play and he was pounded into the ground. JJ did not let DB build any confidence.
RE: Finding OL talent in the draft is becoming more and more  
Brown Recluse : 3/23/2018 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13882324 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
difficult. They are not being developed because of the spread offenses.


That is an excellent point.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 3/23/2018 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13882265 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
In comment 13882176 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


I'm just gonna keep posting my 4 player list.

Rosen
Barkley
Nelson
Fitzpatrick

Must come away with one of these 4 guys in the first round.

If we don't, we fucked up.



I'm sure you've said this elsewhere and I missed it - what concerns you about Darnold?


Part of it is the system he played in, some of the turnovers were really inexplicable too.

He reminds me SO much of Eli in that you'll get the incredible, jaw-dropping throw (i.e... dropping it in the bucket to Manningham in SB46 in the biggest of spots) and then the absolutely mind boggling INT where you can't figure out what the hell he was looking at no matter how many times you watch the tape.

I also don't love the throwing motion. Too wind-up-y. Deep ball is "eh."

I have a small bias because of how other recent USC QB's have panned out - it gives me pause.

That said, this kid is a mule. Ideal size. Tough, has the intangibles. I don't think any moment will be too big for him (again, reminds me of Eli) and he does have a very high ceiling. He's athletic and strong. He has that escapability factor that seems to be becoming more and more necessary with the state of these offensive lines.

To me, I just love Rosen's mechanics. So smooth and pro-ready. Really nice release. The concussions concern me but that's it. If Rosen stays healthy, I am very confident he's going to be outstanding. He's the best pure passer in this draft.

I wouldn't be mad if we wound up with Darnold (and I suspect we'd take him if CLE passed), but I prefer Rosen if it's a QB.
So if a Guard is a HoFer  
UConn4523 : 3/23/2018 12:22 pm : link
that makes him more valuable to an above average, non-HoF QB?

OK, got it. Thanks guys.
and Scherff  
UConn4523 : 3/23/2018 12:24 pm : link
wasn't drafted as a Guard, why is it continually posted?
RE: Heard a good interview with Greg Cosell  
Section331 : 3/23/2018 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13882226 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
talking about Nelson and taking him high in the draft. He discussed his view that valuation along the OL is changing because of the different ways NFL defenses are attacking. He felt the distinction between LT and RT is basically non-existent at this point (yikes, Flowers) and that even the interior guys are basically just as important in pass protection as tackles once were. Argued that more and more, defenses are attacking with five across, which basically puts every OL in iso situation with a pass rusher (and teams more and more are sliding pass rushers into the interior). So basically, his view is that LT, RT, G, he is more and more open to just taking top OL talent high regardless of position.


Good post, and teams prioritize OL positions based on the strengths of their QB. New Orleans, for example, prioritizes the interior OL positions because they want to allow Brees to step up in the pocket.

I would have little problem with taking QN at 2. I would hope that the Giants would look into trade options that kept him in range, but if they feel he’s the best player in the draft, take him.
UConn  
fkap : 3/23/2018 12:25 pm : link
any guard worth acquiring in FA costs big money. Pugh got 9/yr and Richburg about the same or more. Neither are anything to write home about.

It cost BIG money to build around FA.

Picking a guard at 2 is not much different than going after Norwell. Norwell would have been a premium pickup for premium dollars. FA dollars are limited, just like draft picks.


I don't understand the mantra of it being ok to pick him at 6, but not at 2. If he's the top guy on the board, he's the top guy you want to pick. Why would you pick someone lower on your board (like, say, Barkley)? Sure you could trade down and pick up more picks, but that carries the risk that another team might grab him.

This year, at 2, IF you're able to trade down to 5 or 6, you have to have a real conviction on the player to stand pat at 2. Most of the top picks will be QB, so if you don't want a QB, you are likely to pick up Barkley, Nelson, Chubb or some other player you have ranked up there. If one stands out, take him at 2. If one doesn't, get the extra picks by trading down.

RE: So if a Guard is a HoFer  
Section331 : 3/23/2018 12:27 pm : link
In comment 13882416 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that makes him more valuable to an above average, non-HoF QB?

OK, got it. Thanks guys.


Teams draft based on player grades. If Nelson is an 80, and the top QB is a 65, you take Nelson.
I never said they werent  
UConn4523 : 3/23/2018 12:30 pm : link
but this HoF talk is such nonsense. We can make projections but a lot needs to go right for any player to be a HoFer.

And I can’t find any possible was a Guards “talent” would be ranked so much higher than anyone else on th board that he’d be a slam dunk decision to take.

It would be more realistic to assume Nelson/Barkley are 85 and Darnold/Rosen are 80-82. And in that scenario you are still taking a Guard?
Fkap  
UConn4523 : 3/23/2018 12:32 pm : link
because picking him at 6 means we got other assets in addition to Nelson. It also means the higher value positions are off the board.

FA is expensive for any position and blowing your wad on a Guard there can be foolish as well. You can drastically improve an offensive line with 2 average Guards and pay them as such. In fact, we may have just done that last week.
I bet you guys wanted  
SHO'NUFF : 3/23/2018 12:49 pm : link
Robert Gallery, as well.
RE: I bet you guys wanted  
Brown Recluse : 3/23/2018 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13882492 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
Robert Gallery, as well.


What does that even mean?

I bet you wanted Ryan Leaf.

I bet you wanted Vernon Gholston.

I bet you wanted Justin Blackmon.

I bet you wanted Aaron Curry.

I bet you wanted Justin Gilbert.

I bet you wanted Charles Rogers.

I bet you wanted Trent Richardson.

I bet you wanted JaMarcus Russell.

We could do this all day. Whats the point? It proves nothing other than players bust. Thank you, Captain Obvious.
not at 2  
msh : 3/23/2018 12:56 pm : link
if they really want him the clamour for the QB's would allow them to drop back a few slots and still take him plus add picks i would be happy with them drafting him but not at 2 when you have the oppourtunity to add extra picks and still draft him not so much
Within the context of value and consensus  
JonC : 3/23/2018 12:59 pm : link
#2 appears to be slightly too high for him, regardless of position.

Trade down to 4 or 5 and I'm all for it, there's going to be offers from teams desperate for a QB.
Love Nelson  
ryanmkeane : 3/23/2018 1:18 pm : link
but if we stayed at 2 and took him over a QB or Barkley...get your remotes ready
Nelson  
ryanmkeane : 3/23/2018 1:20 pm : link
at his best does not impact the game as much as a QB, Barkley, or Chubb at their best. And it's really not close
provided your scouts/belief are those skill position prospects  
JonC : 3/23/2018 1:23 pm : link
project as such in the NFL. If you believe Nelson's a gold coat and the others aren't, you pick Nelson.
Value  
George from PA : 3/23/2018 1:27 pm : link
we know the Jets are not taking him.

we know the Browns are not taking him.

I suspect Denver is going QB.

so Colts @6 is 1st team that might take him.....forgoing Chubb or Barkley

so why settle on taking him at 2....
He's a  
mittenedman : 3/23/2018 1:28 pm : link
bigger Snee.
A dominant G  
sharpshooter66 : 3/23/2018 1:33 pm : link
Instantly improves multiple positions on offense especially in pass protection when you have a QB who doesnt run, amd a crop of average RBs. I love Nelson and if we dont take him before pick 4 hes gone
Nelson  
ryanmkeane : 3/23/2018 1:39 pm : link
seems like taylor made to go to Colts at 6. They've needed OL help for the past 5 seasons it feels like. If he's sitting there and they pass especially with Luck coming back and the need to protect him, Colts fans would not be thrilled
If we are bad enough to draft 2  
UConn4523 : 3/23/2018 1:40 pm : link
I don’t want a fucking Guard as my prize, it’s that simple for me. He isn’t this godlike Guard of which there’s never been another player or prospect of equal caliber.

And I’d be curious what our grades are on the other guards, as that’s what should effect his draft candidacy more, IMO.
RE: If we are bad enough to draft 2  
Brown Recluse : 3/23/2018 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13882616 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
I don’t want a fucking Guard as my prize, it’s that simple for me. He isn’t this godlike Guard of which there’s never been another player or prospect of equal caliber.

And I’d be curious what our grades are on the other guards, as that’s what should effect his draft candidacy more, IMO.


So basically, it really comes down to dogma.
RE: I never said they werent  
Section331 : 3/23/2018 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13882445 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but this HoF talk is such nonsense. We can make projections but a lot needs to go right for any player to be a HoFer.

It would be more realistic to assume Nelson/Barkley are 85 and Darnold/Rosen are 80-82. And in that scenario you are still taking a Guard?


The only reason I use the HOF comp is because DG says it all the time, but given the scenario you defined, I would take the QB. Yes, you put a premium on the QB position, so a position player is graded closely to a QB, you go with the QB.
I'm not boing to change anyone's mind  
UConn4523 : 3/23/2018 2:16 pm : link
and it isn't my goal. If you are fine with a Guard at 2, great. I'd be very disappointed unless we moved down and accumulated more assets in addition to Nelson. We can also address Guard later, or move back up into round 1 for a prospect that might be in that next tier of "very good" instead of great.
RE: RE: I bet you guys wanted  
SHO'NUFF : 3/23/2018 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13882504 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 13882492 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


Robert Gallery, as well.



What does that even mean?

I bet you wanted Ryan Leaf.

I bet you wanted Vernon Gholston.

I bet you wanted Justin Blackmon.

I bet you wanted Aaron Curry.

I bet you wanted Justin Gilbert.

I bet you wanted Charles Rogers.

I bet you wanted Trent Richardson.

I bet you wanted JaMarcus Russell.

We could do this all day. Whats the point? It proves nothing other than players bust. Thank you, Captain Obvious.


Nope to all.

Thanks for playing.
How have we been doing since our last franchise Guard....  
Emlen'sGremlins : 3/23/2018 3:21 pm : link
....(Chris Snee) retired?
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