He's not a QB. He's not a sexy RB. But he's just really really good.
And I don't buy the line about how Guards aren't valuable enough to rate a #2 pick. Guards aren't drafted that high because generally - there aren't any at the top of the draft class. It's a matter of talent - not the position.
How can a position as instrumental in protecting the QB and powering the running game - especially in short yardage and goal line situations - not be considered valuable enough for a top pick? If you aren't trying to move down the field and score touchdowns from the 1 yard line instead of kicking field goals - then what are you doing?
This guy isn't just a good player. He is dominant. He cannot be bullrushed. He absorbs impact like a brick wall. He doesn't just hold defenders long enough for the RB to squeeze through the line for 5 yards. He bull-dozes them backwards and takes them out of the play completely, blowing open the kind of holes that net your RB big yardage.
You cannot simply *find* players like this in later rounds. It has happened occasionally through luck, more than anything else.
This is exactly what this team needs.
I'm not saying he's my pick. Honestly, I won't be upset no matter what happens. I'm sure Gettleman will do whatever is best suited to his plan (whatever that is). But if the Giants aren't in love with these QB's, and Gettleman is really looking for a *future hall of famer* as he has stated - Nelson has to be in the conversation. I don't care if its never happened.
Obligatory highlight reel below. Some of you might find OL highlights boring, but if you like violence you will enjoy this.
Quenton Nelson 2017 Highlights - (
New Window )
Mayock was gushing last night about his workout at ND pro day. Called it the best OL pro day he's ever seen in his life.
For a team that is starved for OL talent, leadership and a nasty attitude. Nelson checks about every box.
I hope he's as good as advertised and I hope we get him.
Rumors are that Denver will take him at 5. Unless you can make a deal with Denver (I doubt they would trade up to take Nelson), you have to go with Gettleman's admonition of not over-thinking things and take QN at 2.
You can close your eyes and keep tapping your heels and pretend guards are as valuable as other positions as QB's but your just ignoring reality. Nelson won't be able it impact the playoffs as much as QB or other positions.
Not if he's a HOF-level player. If you can plug in an all-pro level guy on your OL for the next 10 years, that solves a lot of problems. Again, I'd prefer to trade down a couple of spots, but you do risk missing out on him.
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not at 2 though. Just bad value, don't really care how you want to spin it.
Not if he's a HOF-level player. If you can plug in an all-pro level guy on your OL for the next 10 years, that solves a lot of problems. Again, I'd prefer to trade down a couple of spots, but you do risk missing out on him.
I really don't care about this whole "gold jacket" thing. There are 0 sure things, he could get injured, leave in FA, etc. The point is Guards can be had elsewhere in the draft or in FA without paying top dollar. Spending your shiny new #2 overall pick on a Guard manes no sense at all.
You can close your eyes and keep tapping your heels and pretend guards are as valuable as other positions as QB's but your just ignoring reality. Nelson won't be able it impact the playoffs as much as QB or other positions.
Your post is confusing. How would his strengths be minimized in the playoffs? He's there to make the offense go.
You are talking about, potentially, a perennial All-Pro protecting your QB and leading your RB to daylight for possibly over a decade.
The Giants were about to make Andrew Norwell the highest paid offensive lineman in history, so they've already shown that they aren't afraid to invest highly at that position.
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In comment 13881999 UConn4523 said:
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not at 2 though. Just bad value, don't really care how you want to spin it.
Not if he's a HOF-level player. If you can plug in an all-pro level guy on your OL for the next 10 years, that solves a lot of problems. Again, I'd prefer to trade down a couple of spots, but you do risk missing out on him.
I really don't care about this whole "gold jacket" thing. There are 0 sure things, he could get injured, leave in FA, etc. The point is Guards can be had elsewhere in the draft or in FA without paying top dollar. Spending your shiny new #2 overall pick on a Guard manes no sense at all.
If that's true, how come we haven't found one yet?
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In comment 13882051 Section331 said:
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In comment 13881999 UConn4523 said:
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not at 2 though. Just bad value, don't really care how you want to spin it.
Not if he's a HOF-level player. If you can plug in an all-pro level guy on your OL for the next 10 years, that solves a lot of problems. Again, I'd prefer to trade down a couple of spots, but you do risk missing out on him.
I really don't care about this whole "gold jacket" thing. There are 0 sure things, he could get injured, leave in FA, etc. The point is Guards can be had elsewhere in the draft or in FA without paying top dollar. Spending your shiny new #2 overall pick on a Guard manes no sense at all.
If that's true, how come we haven't found one yet?
Because we had a bunch of morons running things. Why bother trying to justify or compare the last few years of the Reese regime to what we will do moving forward?
Even if it was that rare to find a Guard it’s simply a position that’s less important the QB and DE as far as the #2 pick goes.
I really don't care about this whole "gold jacket" thing. There are 0 sure things, he could get injured, leave in FA, etc. The point is Guards can be had elsewhere in the draft or in FA without paying top dollar. Spending your shiny new #2 overall pick on a Guard manes no sense at all.
Well anyone can get injured. If LT had a career ending injury in year 2 or 3, does that make him a bad pick? And sure, there is no certainty that he will become that HOF level guy, but you have to trust your evaluation process. Relying on FA is how we got into this situation to begin with.
If you think QN is the only HOF-level guy in the draft, and trading down is too risky, you take him at 2.
I hope he's as good as advertised and I hope we get him.
Accorsi could build a line with high character guys and leadership, Snee, McKenzie, Diehl, OHara. Previous regime, not so much.
Rosen
Barkley
Nelson
Fitzpatrick
Must come away with one of these 4 guys in the first round.
If we don't, we fucked up.
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In comment 13881999 UConn4523 said:
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not at 2 though. Just bad value, don't really care how you want to spin it.
Not if he's a HOF-level player. If you can plug in an all-pro level guy on your OL for the next 10 years, that solves a lot of problems. Again, I'd prefer to trade down a couple of spots, but you do risk missing out on him.
I really don't care about this whole "gold jacket" thing. There are 0 sure things, he could get injured, leave in FA, etc. The point is Guards can be had elsewhere in the draft or in FA without paying top dollar. Spending your shiny new #2 overall pick on a Guard manes no sense at all.
Not to be an ass, but...thats kind of a broad brush response. Any player can get injured. Any player can leave. Any position can theoretically be found in later rounds, if you're lucky - which most teams aren't considering how quickly the success rate plummets deeper in the draft. That can be applied to any position and therefore doesn't disprove that Guards specifically aren't valuable enough - given the talent.
Also, as I stated earlier - the Giants have already tried to pay top dollar for a Guard, which would indicate that they do see the value.
Personally, I don't see what could make more sense than fixing things like this:
And things like this:
They seem pretty impotant to winning.
Rosen
Barkley
Nelson
Fitzpatrick
Must come away with one of these 4 guys in the first round.
If we don't, we fucked up.
Agreed!
Mike Munchak was taken at #8 (10 time All-Pro)
Brandon Scherff was taken at #5
John Hannah was #4
Tom Mack was #2
I'm just saying it shouldn't be dismissed lightly if he really is that good.
If the value is going to increase in the open market. The value should increase via the draft as well.
Rosen
Barkley
Nelson
Fitzpatrick
Must come away with one of these 4 guys in the first round.
If we don't, we fucked up.
I'm sure you've said this elsewhere and I missed it - what concerns you about Darnold?
Trading with the Bills... and then trying to get back into the top 8... will probably be tough and likely ends up not gaining us much in draft pick assets anyway.
Hence the, "if the Giants aren't in love with any of these QB's"
Nelson, best OL in the draft, 2nd best player in the draft ( behind Barkley ) helps in the rebuild of the O Line, High character guy. Fixing the O Line helps the passing game, the running game, goalline and short yardage, time of possession and TOP helps keep the Defense on the sideline.
If you don't think a dominant guard is important then you don't understand football.
I have heard that thought with respect to LT Solder signing was short sighted because of his age. Then I remembered how many young QBs’ psyches and careers were ruined behind porous O-lines. I remember when NYG put Dave Brown in the end of a blow out loss to DAL; Jimmy Johnson blitzed him on every play and he was pounded into the ground. JJ did not let DB build any confidence.
That is an excellent point.
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I'm just gonna keep posting my 4 player list.
Rosen
Barkley
Nelson
Fitzpatrick
Must come away with one of these 4 guys in the first round.
If we don't, we fucked up.
I'm sure you've said this elsewhere and I missed it - what concerns you about Darnold?
Part of it is the system he played in, some of the turnovers were really inexplicable too.
He reminds me SO much of Eli in that you'll get the incredible, jaw-dropping throw (i.e... dropping it in the bucket to Manningham in SB46 in the biggest of spots) and then the absolutely mind boggling INT where you can't figure out what the hell he was looking at no matter how many times you watch the tape.
I also don't love the throwing motion. Too wind-up-y. Deep ball is "eh."
I have a small bias because of how other recent USC QB's have panned out - it gives me pause.
That said, this kid is a mule. Ideal size. Tough, has the intangibles. I don't think any moment will be too big for him (again, reminds me of Eli) and he does have a very high ceiling. He's athletic and strong. He has that escapability factor that seems to be becoming more and more necessary with the state of these offensive lines.
To me, I just love Rosen's mechanics. So smooth and pro-ready. Really nice release. The concussions concern me but that's it. If Rosen stays healthy, I am very confident he's going to be outstanding. He's the best pure passer in this draft.
I wouldn't be mad if we wound up with Darnold (and I suspect we'd take him if CLE passed), but I prefer Rosen if it's a QB.
OK, got it. Thanks guys.
Good post, and teams prioritize OL positions based on the strengths of their QB. New Orleans, for example, prioritizes the interior OL positions because they want to allow Brees to step up in the pocket.
I would have little problem with taking QN at 2. I would hope that the Giants would look into trade options that kept him in range, but if they feel he’s the best player in the draft, take him.
It cost BIG money to build around FA.
Picking a guard at 2 is not much different than going after Norwell. Norwell would have been a premium pickup for premium dollars. FA dollars are limited, just like draft picks.
I don't understand the mantra of it being ok to pick him at 6, but not at 2. If he's the top guy on the board, he's the top guy you want to pick. Why would you pick someone lower on your board (like, say, Barkley)? Sure you could trade down and pick up more picks, but that carries the risk that another team might grab him.
This year, at 2, IF you're able to trade down to 5 or 6, you have to have a real conviction on the player to stand pat at 2. Most of the top picks will be QB, so if you don't want a QB, you are likely to pick up Barkley, Nelson, Chubb or some other player you have ranked up there. If one stands out, take him at 2. If one doesn't, get the extra picks by trading down.
OK, got it. Thanks guys.
Teams draft based on player grades. If Nelson is an 80, and the top QB is a 65, you take Nelson.
And I can’t find any possible was a Guards “talent” would be ranked so much higher than anyone else on th board that he’d be a slam dunk decision to take.
It would be more realistic to assume Nelson/Barkley are 85 and Darnold/Rosen are 80-82. And in that scenario you are still taking a Guard?
FA is expensive for any position and blowing your wad on a Guard there can be foolish as well. You can drastically improve an offensive line with 2 average Guards and pay them as such. In fact, we may have just done that last week.
What does that even mean?
I bet you wanted Ryan Leaf.
I bet you wanted Vernon Gholston.
I bet you wanted Justin Blackmon.
I bet you wanted Aaron Curry.
I bet you wanted Justin Gilbert.
I bet you wanted Charles Rogers.
I bet you wanted Trent Richardson.
I bet you wanted JaMarcus Russell.
We could do this all day. Whats the point? It proves nothing other than players bust. Thank you, Captain Obvious.
Trade down to 4 or 5 and I'm all for it, there's going to be offers from teams desperate for a QB.
we know the Browns are not taking him.
I suspect Denver is going QB.
so Colts @6 is 1st team that might take him.....forgoing Chubb or Barkley
so why settle on taking him at 2....
And I’d be curious what our grades are on the other guards, as that’s what should effect his draft candidacy more, IMO.
And I’d be curious what our grades are on the other guards, as that’s what should effect his draft candidacy more, IMO.
So basically, it really comes down to dogma.
It would be more realistic to assume Nelson/Barkley are 85 and Darnold/Rosen are 80-82. And in that scenario you are still taking a Guard?
The only reason I use the HOF comp is because DG says it all the time, but given the scenario you defined, I would take the QB. Yes, you put a premium on the QB position, so a position player is graded closely to a QB, you go with the QB.
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Robert Gallery, as well.
What does that even mean?
I bet you wanted Ryan Leaf.
I bet you wanted Vernon Gholston.
I bet you wanted Justin Blackmon.
I bet you wanted Aaron Curry.
I bet you wanted Justin Gilbert.
I bet you wanted Charles Rogers.
I bet you wanted Trent Richardson.
I bet you wanted JaMarcus Russell.
We could do this all day. Whats the point? It proves nothing other than players bust. Thank you, Captain Obvious.
Nope to all.
Thanks for playing.