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Just a Question for All the QB desperate people....

Zepp : 3/24/2018 5:51 am
If the problem is we have a 37 year old QB and we MUST replace him in this draft class or else the franchise is doomed for all eternity because there are sooooo many good QBs, then why aren’t the Steelers, Chargers or Patriots breaking legs, necks and fighting to trade up?

Seems to me all of them are content with their QB situation and their aging QB and are not desperate to do what it takes to get one of these QBs. They don’t seem to be worried about getting a QB for another 10 years at least not enough to try to trade up and get one of these guys early.

The Steelers could hypothetically trade Leveon Bell to trade up. After all this is a RB rich draft and you don’t need a RB to win you need a franchise QB right?

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Chargers? Does anyone even  
Creme777 : 3/24/2018 7:24 am : link
care if they do well or not?

Good god, the guy lost his best WR and you dont think Eli wouldnt have had 8 more TDs to meet Rivers and Ben's spectacular 28 TDs?
'coming off a 3-13 season with their qb’s playing poorly?'...  
Torrag : 3/24/2018 7:29 am : link
I think the QB naysayers are intrigued by Davis Webb and I get it. There is potential there.

If I knew more about him and had seen him play at the NFL level even with last years crappy roster it would help. He's a complete Wild Card right now in this scenario.

The new HC and OC are both reputed 'QB whisperers'. Unfortunately not having been here for his rookie season how much can they know? They haven't even gotten to know the young man yet. All they have to go on is his college tape and limited pre-season snaps. Plus some opinions from those who were around last season on the guy. That's pretty thin 'evidence' to pass up on elite prospects at the position.'

We'll see how it all plays out in about a month.
Davis Webb  
firedbytheboss : 3/24/2018 7:33 am : link
In comment 13883737 Torrag said:
Quote:
I think the QB naysayers are intrigued by Davis Webb and I get it. There is potential there.

If I knew more about him and had seen him play at the NFL level even with last years crappy roster it would help. He's a complete Wild Card right now in this scenario.

The new HC and OC are both reputed 'QB whisperers'. Unfortunately not having been here for his rookie season how much can they know? They haven't even gotten to know the young man yet. All they have to go on is his college tape and limited pre-season snaps. Plus some opinions from those who were around last season on the guy. That's pretty thin 'evidence' to pass up on elite prospects at the position.'

We'll see how it all plays out in about a month.


in my opinion Davis Webb shouldn't factor into the decision. He was a third round project and a long shot. Get your QB. If Davis Webb emerges as a superstar championship QB we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Nobody will care that we passed on a RB or a Guard if we have a superstar QB in Davis Webb winning playoff games.
RE: Because they weren't 3-13?  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/24/2018 7:39 am : link
In comment 13883691 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
They also aren't picking with the 2nd overall pick. If they were they'd be doing the same thing we are.

The real question is why people want to try to win now with a team that went 3-13 and a 37 year old QB.

What a dumb fucking post.

This is exactly right. And NE thought they had Brady's successor in the building already until Brady went behind Belichick's back to get JG traded.

Also worth noting - Rivers and Roethlisberger are both basically a full year younger than Eli.
RE: RE: Because they weren't 3-13?  
firedbytheboss : 3/24/2018 7:42 am : link
In comment 13883749 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13883691 Big Rick in FL said:


Quote:


They also aren't picking with the 2nd overall pick. If they were they'd be doing the same thing we are.

The real question is why people want to try to win now with a team that went 3-13 and a 37 year old QB.

What a dumb fucking post.


This is exactly right. And NE thought they had Brady's successor in the building already until Brady went behind Belichick's back to get JG traded.

Also worth noting - Rivers and Roethlisberger are both basically a full year younger than Eli.


good point about their age. And btw I will be laughing the hardest if the Pats fall apart and JG wins a super bowl in SF.
If you take out our personal biases as Giants fans  
chuckydee9 : 3/24/2018 7:55 am : link
You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..

Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB
RE: Davis Webb  
Zepp : 3/24/2018 7:56 am : link
In comment 13883740 firedbytheboss said:
Quote:
In comment 13883737 Torrag said:


Quote:


I think the QB naysayers are intrigued by Davis Webb and I get it. There is potential there.

If I knew more about him and had seen him play at the NFL level even with last years crappy roster it would help. He's a complete Wild Card right now in this scenario.

The new HC and OC are both reputed 'QB whisperers'. Unfortunately not having been here for his rookie season how much can they know? They haven't even gotten to know the young man yet. All they have to go on is his college tape and limited pre-season snaps. Plus some opinions from those who were around last season on the guy. That's pretty thin 'evidence' to pass up on elite prospects at the position.'

We'll see how it all plays out in about a month.



in my opinion Davis Webb shouldn't factor into the decision. He was a third round project and a long shot. Get your QB. If Davis Webb emerges as a superstar championship QB we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Nobody will care that we passed on a RB or a Guard if we have a superstar QB in Davis Webb winning playoff games.


You will care when we still have a problem at RB 3 years later and Barkley is the best back in the league. How much easier will Eli or Webb’s job be with a threat like Barkley in the backfield. Was Dak really that good or did Zeke make him better cuz defenses had to put 8 in the box?

You have to think big picture here. Barkley is more than a RB he can catch out of the backfield he can block. You can line him up in a WR set in the backfield anywhere and defenses will have to respect his speed and game break ability. And guess who that leaves one on one. OBJ or Engram or Shepard. The combos are endless.
RE: If you take out our personal biases as Giants fans  
Zepp : 3/24/2018 7:58 am : link
In comment 13883771 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..

Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB


Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.
RE: Your question is a False Choice  
bw in dc : 3/24/2018 8:01 am : link
In comment 13883674 Rafflee said:
Quote:
The Giants finished at 3-13....and the HAVE the #2 Pick in the Draft. The question is about doing the best thing with THAT Pick.

Let's say they had previously traded away their top pick this year...assuming it was going to be back halk of the draft. People might then be talking about how to trade up to get a QB.

BTW---those other teams and other QB's you mention have had better and more recent success....adn they also may have no way of getting to the top of the draft


Required reading.
RE: RE: If you take out our personal biases as Giants fans  
chuckydee9 : 3/24/2018 8:02 am : link
In comment 13883773 Zepp said:
Quote:
In comment 13883771 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..

Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB



Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.


do I think Eli can still Erin the Superbowl if he had a defense like 2015 broncos? Yes.. absolutely.. should that be what Management should do? No.. it's a very low chance that'll be successful.. our defense sucks.. better to get a franchise QB and work on defense over 10 years to win then to try and win now and being in QB purgatory for 10 years after Eli..
It's suppose to say win  
chuckydee9 : 3/24/2018 8:03 am : link
Not Erin
RE: RE: RE: If you take out our personal biases as Giants fans  
Zepp : 3/24/2018 8:07 am : link
In comment 13883778 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 13883773 Zepp said:


Quote:


In comment 13883771 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..

Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB



Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.



do I think Eli can still Erin the Superbowl if he had a defense like 2015 broncos? Yes.. absolutely.. should that be what Management should do? No.. it's a very low chance that'll be successful.. our defense sucks.. better to get a franchise QB and work on defense over 10 years to win then to try and win now and being in QB purgatory for 10 years after Eli..


You know what’s QB purgatory? Is drafting yet another guy who won’t play right away. Eli plays a year or 2 more and then it takes us another 3 years to figure out the guy we took 4-5 years ago can’t play or can’t stay healthy. So there we are 4-5 seasons later being mediocre or bad cuz took a huge risk on a guy who already showed signs of being injured. Meanwhile Barkley is the best back in the league. That’s QB purgatory.
If you cannot see  
joeinpa : 3/24/2018 8:08 am : link
The difference between having the #2 pick and having to trade up from where the teams you mentioned are; there is not much anyone can say to you in regard to your argument.
Lol, keep it going.  
Keith : 3/24/2018 8:08 am : link
Tons of teams have great running games with great Kline’s and RBBC’s. You do not need a zeke to have a great running game, but you do need a great OL.
RE: Lol, keep it going.  
Zepp : 3/24/2018 8:10 am : link
In comment 13883790 Keith said:
Quote:
Tons of teams have great running games with great Kline’s and RBBC’s. You do not need a zeke to have a great running game, but you do need a great OL.


Really? Well they weren’t the same team without him. Dak wasn’t the same QB. They had the same oline. What changed? Oh that’s right their playmaking RB who could take the ball to the house on any play wasn’t there. Defenses weren’t stacking the box because of Alfred Morris. Give me a break.
RE: RE: If you take out our personal biases as Giants fans  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/24/2018 8:12 am : link
In comment 13883773 Zepp said:
Quote:
In comment 13883771 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..

Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB



Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.

Denver had a defense that we're probably not going to be able to put together over the next two years that Eli has remaining on his contract, and beyond that - that Broncos team won the Super Bowl in spite of Peyton. And look where they are now as far as their QB situation.

With all due respect, if that version of Peyton is your reasoning for why it makes sense to build around a 37-year-old Eli, your argument is flawed from the start. There are some very cogent arguments that have been made about why it may ultimately make sense to pass on a QB at #2; yours isn't one of them.
RE: RE: Lol, keep it going.  
Keith : 3/24/2018 8:15 am : link
In comment 13883795 Zepp said:
Quote:
In comment 13883790 Keith said:


Quote:


Tons of teams have great running games with great Kline’s and RBBC’s. You do not need a zeke to have a great running game, but you do need a great OL.



Really? Well they weren’t the same team without him. Dak wasn’t the same QB. They had the same oline. What changed? Oh that’s right their playmaking RB who could take the ball to the house on any play wasn’t there. Defenses weren’t stacking the box because of Alfred Morris. Give me a break.


1. Their OL
2. Morris, in 115 carries averaged 4.8 YPC. Zeke in 225, 4.1

I’m not trying to suggest Morris is better, he’s not.
Those teams aren’t picking at 2  
UberAlias : 3/24/2018 8:17 am : link
I doubt people would be screaming for a QB if we were picking at 12. We have an opportunity those QBs don’t and their teams are winning more than 3 games.
RE: If you cannot see  
UberAlias : 3/24/2018 8:19 am : link
In comment 13883789 joeinpa said:
Quote:
The difference between having the #2 pick and having to trade up from where the teams you mentioned are; there is not much anyone can say to you in regard to your argument.
Agreed. If the Giants were a playoff team instead of a 3 win team and picking in the latter half of the round there wouldn’t be any QB talk. Most have made it clear NYG is in a unique opportunity which happens once a decade.
RE: RE: RE: If you take out our personal biases as Giants fans  
Zepp : 3/24/2018 8:20 am : link
In comment 13883800 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13883773 Zepp said:


Quote:


In comment 13883771 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..

Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB



Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.


Denver had a defense that we're probably not going to be able to put together over the next two years that Eli has remaining on his contract, and beyond that - that Broncos team won the Super Bowl in spite of Peyton. And look where they are now as far as their QB situation.

With all due respect, if that version of Peyton is your reasoning for why it makes sense to build around a 37-year-old Eli, your argument is flawed from the start. There are some very cogent arguments that have been made about why it may ultimately make sense to pass on a QB at #2; yours isn't one of them.


We wouldn’t be building around a 37 year old QB. We already have pieces and we have a young QB. Both of their lives would be made infinitely better by adding a player of Barkley’s skill. That’s just a fact. I’m not saying we’d win the Super Bowl but we still have a lot of the same players on defense that went 11-5 just a year ago. With an improved oline which we already have( can’t be worse) and adding a player of Barkley’s ability there is no reason why we can’t be competitive this year.

Then when it’s Webb’s time to come in things will be easier with defenses having to worry about SB OBJ Engram. They can’t tee him up.
How do you know they aren’t?  
Sean : 3/24/2018 8:21 am : link
The Ravens have been linked to QB’s.
And Steelers spent a 4 th round on a QB  
UberAlias : 3/24/2018 8:22 am : link
Last year.
RE: RE: If you cannot see  
Zepp : 3/24/2018 8:24 am : link
In comment 13883814 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 13883789 joeinpa said:


Quote:


The difference between having the #2 pick and having to trade up from where the teams you mentioned are; there is not much anyone can say to you in regard to your argument.

Agreed. If the Giants were a playoff team instead of a 3 win team and picking in the latter half of the round there wouldn’t be any QB talk. Most have made it clear NYG is in a unique opportunity which happens once a decade.


The Cowboys were a 4 win team and Zeke made them. Playoff team. The Giants are in unique opportunity to add a playmaker. A HOF caliber player. That player is clearly Barkley by everyone’s standard. QB would be a forced need pick.
RE: RE: RE: If you cannot see  
Mike in NY : 3/24/2018 8:27 am : link
In comment 13883821 Zepp said:
Quote:
In comment 13883814 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 13883789 joeinpa said:


Quote:


The difference between having the #2 pick and having to trade up from where the teams you mentioned are; there is not much anyone can say to you in regard to your argument.

Agreed. If the Giants were a playoff team instead of a 3 win team and picking in the latter half of the round there wouldn’t be any QB talk. Most have made it clear NYG is in a unique opportunity which happens once a decade.



The Cowboys were a 4 win team and Zeke made them. Playoff team. The Giants are in unique opportunity to add a playmaker. A HOF caliber player. That player is clearly Barkley by everyone’s standard. QB would be a forced need pick.


To be fair, Cowboys were only a 4 win team because Romo got injured and missed most of the season versus the Giants who had zero wins when OBJ went down
Zepp that’s by how you grade them  
UberAlias : 3/24/2018 8:29 am : link
Not necessarily how the team does. If everyone saw a HOF verses a bust no one is going to push for the bust. But if you read the signs, clearly teams think these QBs will be pretty good. Jets and Bills aren’t looking to trade all those picks for a RB.
That’s fair and  
Zepp : 3/24/2018 8:32 am : link
That’s true. They also had some close and bad games. They still had the issues at oline and some bad personnel decisions.

Point is Zeke made them dramatically a different team and Romo also went down the following year and their young QB did not miss a beat...why? Cuz of Zeke.

They went from 4-12 to 12-4. They didn’t exactly have the doomsday defense either.
Here's the thing.  
FStubbs : 3/24/2018 8:33 am : link
I think everyone I've seen seriously post agrees with the value of having a franchise QB.

I think everyone here knows Eli is 37 and if there is a franchise QB available at #2 you run and grab him.

The debate is whether the 4 QBs in play are franchise QBs or not.

The people who want Barkley want him because they think he's a special player and they don't think the 4 QBs in play are.

The people who want to trade down want to do so because they don't think much of the 4 QBs in play and don't to draft a RB in the first round. (And a few think Barkley will be the next great Penn State RB bust).
I don't want a QB at 2 but your making a poor aargument.  
wgenesis123 : 3/24/2018 8:35 am : link
The Giants options in this draft are much different than those three teams. Even Buffalo who made the playoffs had different options because they had two first round picks and no franchise QB on their roster. Buffalo is a player for the top QB's but they may not make it and if they do the cost will be very high. Their best chance may be the Giants and Denver taking Barkley and Nelson.
Why do people insist on creating these false narratives  
Mike from Ohio : 3/24/2018 8:36 am : link
about what other posters say? Is it just easier to make your point when the people with different opinions are extremists? How many posters in this board have advocated the Giants taking a QB at all costs? I don't think I've seen one. Many want a QB. That's not the same as having to draft one at #2 at all costs, no matter what. How many people would advocate the Giants taking a QB they did not see as a franchise QB? I'd guess none.

It's also silly to assume all QBs play deteriorate at a straight line by age. Some QB's play falls off at 35. Some at 38. Some lucky ones hit 40. Big Ben has talked about retiring. Do you think if they went 3-13 this year and could draft a franchise QB at #2 they wouldn't consider it? Of course they would. And most of their fanbase would be clamoring for it.

Drafting a QB makes a ton of sense for the Giants, if there is a franchise guy there. Opinions here differ on that and that is reasonable. If they don't see one, or think Eli is still capable of playing at a high level for at least a couple of years, then take the BPA - Barkley, Chubb, etc. I am fine with whatever they do because it is based on their own assessment of what they have, and what is critical to Shurmur's system. But it is in no way unreasonable to think about a QB at #2, nor is it some kind of desperation move.

And unless they draft Allen (or someone later than the top 15 or so) there is no way any QB they select is sitting for 2 years. Darnold may sit a year. Rosen maybe, although he seems more NFL ready and may play this year. If they draft a QB that guy will play when he is ready, not when Eli can no longer play.
RE: Zepp that’s by how you grade them  
Zepp : 3/24/2018 8:37 am : link
In comment 13883825 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Not necessarily how the team does. If everyone saw a HOF verses a bust no one is going to push for the bust. But if you read the signs, clearly teams think these QBs will be pretty good. Jets and Bills aren’t looking to trade all those picks for a RB.


No of course not. But they’re also a little more desperate. The Jets haven’t had a QB since Ken OBrien. The Bills since Jim Kelly. Both of them have garbage on their roster or at least guys you cannot rely on. They also don’t have much else to work with so a rookie QB makes sense because you can take a risk and build around this guy.

He Giants I feel are in a different position. Despite the haters they have a vet Qb who can play and who management feels can still play. They have a rookie QB and a HC who is good at making almost any QB look good. They also have arguably the best WR in the game, a good 2nd WR and a good rookie TE. They have weapons. They’re a year removed from the playoffs. In other words they have some pieces and are further along than the Jets or the Bills.

RE: RE: If you take out our personal biases as Giants fans  
Jimmy Googs : 3/24/2018 8:37 am : link
In comment 13883773 Zepp said:
Quote:
In comment 13883771 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..

Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB



Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.


Are you kidding? They won that SB with their defense and ancillary players on offense. Peyton was a crutch and they only wanted him on the field for his mind/leadeship.

Hell, he almost lost them the SB the way he played.
I’m all for Barkley.  
UberAlias : 3/24/2018 8:38 am : link
If they don’t love the QBs available.
And to the OP  
Jimmy Googs : 3/24/2018 8:39 am : link
If the Giants had Ben, Rivers or Brady I would advocate they select Barkley in a second.

But we don't, so find a QB...
RE: Here's the thing.  
Zepp : 3/24/2018 8:40 am : link
In comment 13883835 FStubbs said:
Quote:
I think everyone I've seen seriously post agrees with the value of having a franchise QB.

I think everyone here knows Eli is 37 and if there is a franchise QB available at #2 you run and grab him.

The debate is whether the 4 QBs in play are franchise QBs or not.

The people who want Barkley want him because they think he's a special player and they don't think the 4 QBs in play are.

The people who want to trade down want to do so because they don't think much of the 4 QBs in play and don't to draft a RB in the first round. (And a few think Barkley will be the next great Penn State RB bust).


True. I want Barkley but wouldn’t be upset if the browns pass on Darnold and I wouldn’t be upset if the Giants went for a. Ricky Williams type deal.
I disagree with those who say that Webb doesn't factor into  
PatersonPlank : 3/24/2018 9:19 am : link
the decision. I think he directly factors into the decision, not Eli. If the Giants evaluations show they like Webb as much as these college QB's, then that means they do not draft a QB and instead take Barkley, trade down, etc. If they didn't have Webb at all, then you could be certain that they would be going all in for a QB. I don't care if he dropped to the 3rd round, that doesn't matter. They have seen him in preseason games and at practice for a year now, they should have an educated guess at what he can do (certainly more of a guess than what Darnold or Rosen will do).
RE: I disagree with those who say that Webb doesn't factor into  
FStubbs : 3/24/2018 9:27 am : link
In comment 13883905 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
the decision. I think he directly factors into the decision, not Eli. If the Giants evaluations show they like Webb as much as these college QB's, then that means they do not draft a QB and instead take Barkley, trade down, etc. If they didn't have Webb at all, then you could be certain that they would be going all in for a QB. I don't care if he dropped to the 3rd round, that doesn't matter. They have seen him in preseason games and at practice for a year now, they should have an educated guess at what he can do (certainly more of a guess than what Darnold or Rosen will do).


They meaning who? The previous regime?

I don't think Webb is a factor. It would be nice if Webb turns into something but I don't think you make this decision based on Webb. If we take Barkley (or trade down) and Webb pans out, great. If we take a QB and Webb pans out, we can trade that QB.
RE: I disagree with those who say that Webb doesn't factor into  
Mike from Ohio : 3/24/2018 9:28 am : link
In comment 13883905 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
the decision. I think he directly factors into the decision, not Eli. If the Giants evaluations show they like Webb as much as these college QB's, then that means they do not draft a QB and instead take Barkley, trade down, etc. If they didn't have Webb at all, then you could be certain that they would be going all in for a QB. I don't care if he dropped to the 3rd round, that doesn't matter. They have seen him in preseason games and at practice for a year now, they should have an educated guess at what he can do (certainly more of a guess than what Darnold or Rosen will do).


I think the counter argument is how can they possibly have enough info on Webb to know what they have? He played very sparingly in the pre-season, and this GM and coach we're not here to watch him live in practice. My understanding is that he did not get many papractice snaps either other than with the scout team. He may have potential, but I hunk most assume if he has the same potential as a Rosen, Darnold or Allen, that he would have been more talked about when he came out in the draft. He didn't fall to the 3rd round for no reason. He was a project.
Here is the thing about Webb  
UberAlias : 3/24/2018 9:33 am : link
The plan last year was to ease him in very slowly. They had Super Bowl aspirations and the majority of the reps went to Eli and then the QB competition between Geno and Johnson. Same with playing time in preseason. Webb got very little work. Plus since the current union agreement there are very few meaningful practices anyway. Then when the season started Geno got the preparations reps. Shurmur acknowledged there isn’t much to go by. We know this. Mostly they know he has a very good work ethic. They have that and the college tape that led to his being a 3 round pick. They know little more of him than they do the rookies. The p,an was to get him involved but you can blame the uproar when Eli was benched. The fans spoke and put an end to considerations of looking beyond Eli.
My associated opinion on the Webb thing is this  
PatersonPlank : 3/24/2018 9:43 am : link
I don't believe its feasible to "develop" 2 QB's. Even in the responses above to my post, people reference that it seems like Webb didn't get many snaps because Geno got the backup snaps. With Eli as the clear starter this will stay the same. My point is that if the Giants love Darnold and draft him, then I'd package up Webb and whatever in a trade (maybe getting a better draft choice, a player, etc). My reasoning is that 1) its a falicy Webb and Darnold would be competing, its obvious Darnold is there to take over; 2) even if they wanted to there just aren't enough snaps to go around. One of them would whither away with scout team reps anyway and not develop.

I think keeping both would be a waste of high draft picks, and not serve any purpose.
Nice try Zepp...  
EricJ : 3/24/2018 9:46 am : link
so ridiculous. Three teams that are head and shoulders better than the Giants and whose QBs are playing better. Plus, they would have to give up way too much to trade up from where they are now to take one of these top QBs.

Did you just begin to follow the NFL?
LOL  
est1986 : 3/24/2018 10:10 am : link
Which one of them is picking top 3? They would all take one of Darnold, Rosen or Allen if they could but they aren’t even close to that range sooo....
They have better teams  
NikkiMac : 3/24/2018 11:08 am : link
Around them and furthermore don’t sleep on Pittsburgh with the QB issue because they are interested in Mason Rudolph who may fall to them and is the one QB that is being underrated....... just saying
I just can’t understand why  
Keith : 3/24/2018 11:14 am : link
the patriots, chargers or steelers aren’t taking Darnold, Rosen or Allen.
To Zepp  
giantstock : 3/24/2018 11:13 pm : link
Love the way your extremism is soo completely off-the-wall. Many of us don't feel we're doomed if we don't take the QB. Just think it is TOO RISKY TO NOT TAKE THE QB.

OFC you probably know this but trying to demonize the posters that don't agree with your hardline opinion.
RE: I disagree with those who say that Webb doesn't factor into  
.McL. : 3/25/2018 5:22 am : link
In comment 13883905 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
the decision. I think he directly factors into the decision, not Eli. If the Giants evaluations show they like Webb as much as these college QB's, then that means they do not draft a QB and instead take Barkley, trade down, etc. If they didn't have Webb at all, then you could be certain that they would be going all in for a QB. I don't care if he dropped to the 3rd round, that doesn't matter. They have seen him in preseason games and at practice for a year now, they should have an educated guess at what he can do (certainly more of a guess than what Darnold or Rosen will do).


^This^
RE: My associated opinion on the Webb thing is this  
.McL. : 3/25/2018 5:57 am : link
In comment 13883938 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
I don't believe its feasible to "develop" 2 QB's. Even in the responses above to my post, people reference that it seems like Webb didn't get many snaps because Geno got the backup snaps. With Eli as the clear starter this will stay the same. My point is that if the Giants love Darnold and draft him, then I'd package up Webb and whatever in a trade (maybe getting a better draft choice, a player, etc). My reasoning is that 1) its a falicy Webb and Darnold would be competing, its obvious Darnold is there to take over; 2) even if they wanted to there just aren't enough snaps to go around. One of them would whither away with scout team reps anyway and not develop.

I think keeping both would be a waste of high draft picks, and not serve any purpose.

^And This^

1) The Eli is done camp. Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. The Eli is done camp say he has been bad since 2013. But, the Giants OL has been putrid since 2012. The Giants under McAdoo also messed with his footwork and mechanics, and I am not sure Eli has ever become comfortable with he changes. And finally, I simply can't evaluate him based on the completely inept offensive schemes put out there by McAdoo over the last 4 years. Yes 4 Years, 2 as OC... Eli may be done, I simply don't know, but whether you draft a QB or not, you want Eli playing in 2018 and Webb or the draftee sit and learn.

2) To those who write off Webb simply because he was a 3rd round pick. Maybe Webb is garbage, maybe he is the future. None of us knows. When he came here, there were questions about his ability to take a snap from under center, footwork, mechanics, play in something other than an air raid system, go through an NFL progression of reads fast enough. Well he has answered all but one of those questions: Can he read fast enough... That increases his value. And really puts him on the same footing as this draft class because most of them come from similar systems, and we don't know how well the can go through progressions either. I would argue that the ability to get through the post snap reads quickly/correctly and with anticipation is the single most important quality of an NFL QB.

3) To those who want Barkley - BY almost every statistic you look at, RBs, including highly drafted ones have virtually 0 correlation to winning football games. This is a passing league now. The 1980s are long gone. Also RBs have the shortest shelf life. So, no impact of winning and losing and a short shelf life. No Thanks, I will look for value elsewhere. That said, Barkley does look like an awesome player.

4) To those who want a trade back - Looking back at history, trade backs have in general not worked well. Blue chip players, pro bowlers, all pros, and HOFers are all highly correlated to winning games. However since there is a huge premium for the 2nd pick for teams wanting a QB, it may be ok, but not so far you miss out on a blue chip player. In other words if you are going to take Nelson or Chubb, move back to 5 or 6 and you can get some pick and still get the player you wanted all along... A player that is a better prospect than the QBs...

5) To those who think is dumb to do anything but get a QB at #2. If there was a clear cut QB prospect to pick from at #2 then sure, Webb and Eli don't matter, go get your franchise QB. And I won't be upset if the Giants grab one. But you don't force the pick just because you are this high and not likely to be here again any time soon.
if you are underwhelmed by these prospects, then you have to maximize your return on the #2 pick somehow. And that is likely a trade back. If you force the pick and the guy doesn't work out, you have set the franchise back 5+ years, and ensured the team of being in QB purgatory. Its a very risky thing to do.


All these scenarios are possible, all have valid arguments. Its interesting to debate the merits of these. Its not very interesting to wade through all the highly emotional posts espousing one point of view and relegating all others being the product of trolls.
RE: I disagree with those who say that Webb doesn't factor into  
Tom from LI : 3/25/2018 7:44 am : link
In comment 13883905 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
the decision. I think he directly factors into the decision, not Eli. If the Giants evaluations show they like Webb as much as these college QB's, then that means they do not draft a QB and instead take Barkley, trade down, etc. If they didn't have Webb at all, then you could be certain that they would be going all in for a QB. I don't care if he dropped to the 3rd round, that doesn't matter. They have seen him in preseason games and at practice for a year now, they should have an educated guess at what he can do (certainly more of a guess than what Darnold or Rosen will do).



*** NOW THAT WAS REQUIRED READING

no where does it say on any of these QB's in the draft 100% Guaranteed Franchise QB. Everybody acts like Darnold and Rosen are (guaranteed).

I want the best player for the Giants. Not grab a QB that is not ready to play or can't stay on the field because of injuries.

I am leaning more towards Barkley for a week of two now. I was in the Darnold camp. I honestly don't think the Giants are going to draft Barkly either. The more I think about it, the more I think they are going to trade the pick.

Expect the unexpected.
RE: RE: If you cannot see  
BigBlueShock : 3/25/2018 8:20 am : link
In comment 13883814 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 13883789 joeinpa said:


Quote:


The difference between having the #2 pick and having to trade up from where the teams you mentioned are; there is not much anyone can say to you in regard to your argument.

Agreed. If the Giants were a playoff team instead of a 3 win team and picking in the latter half of the round there wouldn’t be any QB talk. Most have made it clear NYG is in a unique opportunity which happens once a decade.

This. Exactly. Had the Giants made the playoffs, Eli was leading that charge and the Giants were picking 28th, there would be almost zero talk of taking a QB. But NONE of that is the case.

The situations are so different it’s stupid.
Not a single player in this draft is guaranteed  
Mike from Ohio : 3/25/2018 11:30 am : link
not to bust. That includes Barkley, Chubb and Nelson. In fact, I would bet at least one of them will be a bust just based on past drafts. Each year seems to produce several in the top 10, and they are kit all QBs.

Nobody I have seen is suggesting that you take a QB at all costs. You take one if you think they have the potential to be a franchise QB only. But that acknowledges that they may bust. You can't draft in the top 5 by trying to figure out who is least likely to bust. You evaluate the players and trust your system. If a non-QB grades out significantly higher that the available QBs, you take them. If the grades are close, in my opinion you go for the QB because that position is just typically much harder to fix through trade or free agency than any other.
regarding Zeke missing time  
Strahan91 : 3/25/2018 11:45 am : link
and Dak looking pedestrian. Tyron Smith missed a bunch of those games too. Dak played better with him on the field but he was clearly not himself. Any Qb/offense is going to look much worse without their all pro LT AND their all pro RB.
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