If the problem is we have a 37 year old QB and we MUST replace him in this draft class or else the franchise is doomed for all eternity because there are sooooo many good QBs, then why aren’t the Steelers, Chargers or Patriots breaking legs, necks and fighting to trade up?
Seems to me all of them are content with their QB situation and their aging QB and are not desperate to do what it takes to get one of these QBs. They don’t seem to be worried about getting a QB for another 10 years at least not enough to try to trade up and get one of these guys early.
The Steelers could hypothetically trade Leveon Bell to trade up. After all this is a RB rich draft and you don’t need a RB to win you need a franchise QB right?
you wouldn't have believed that at the beginning of last year...
It is something to consider, for sure.
I will be happy with any of the many options....as long as, they are maximizing their value.
If Nelson is truly their target....trade down
pick. If we had a season like 2016 it would be also be out of the question for the Giants as well
Let's say they had previously traded away their top pick this year...assuming it was going to be back halk of the draft. People might then be talking about how to trade up to get a QB.
BTW---those other teams and other QB's you mention have had better and more recent success....adn they also may have no way of getting to the top of the draft
If their top QB option is there....they should take it.
If not....they have too many good options to compromise
Management has already said they believe in Eli and that he can still play. If that is the case then it makes absolutely perfect sense to surround him with the best talent available including the top prospect, by everyone’s account, in this years draft which is Barkley.
Point is they do NOT have to draft a QB just cuz theirs is 37 especially when you most likely are not going to be getting the top choice.
The real question is why people want to try to win now with a team that went 3-13 and a 37 year old QB.
What a dumb fucking post.
Management has already said they believe in Eli and that he can still play. If that is the case then it makes absolutely perfect sense to surround him with the best talent available including the top prospect, by everyone’s account, in this years draft which is Barkley.
Point is they do NOT have to draft a QB just cuz theirs is 37 especially when you most likely are not going to be getting the top choice.
Barkley at 2 is insane for the Giants. You may think he is BPA but even if he is there are tons of backs in this draft who might wind up being better - seriously. Guice and Michel might do as well or better in this offense and they can be had at the back of the first round. You dont waste a high pick on a RB when in fact you need a QB. I mean seriously, it is like you guys think it's a game of Madden and you want 99s across the board to run around end. I honestly think I would rather have Guice.
They would have to trade major assets to move up and draft a QB.
The reward for suffering through a brutal 3-13 year is a new franchise QB, and going right from a 2 time Super Bowl MVP to another franchise type QB with no wait.
I'm still confused as to why people don't get this concept.
If you don't select a QB, you're basically mortgaging the next 15 years for the minuscule possibility of making the playoffs and making an unrealstic, highly unlikely, magical run this year.
And they have better around them than Manning...
They didnt have Reese as a GM. They had a GM who had a clue. Eli did fine in 2014-2015. That moron Reese drafted a pathetic excuse for a football CB in 2016, then a Tight end in 2017.
The reality is we don't often draft this high and certainly don't want to again for a long, long time. Eli is aging and it's a very good crop of young signal callers to select from. It can be difficult to replace your franchise guy as many of us lived through during the transition after Phil. Names like Dave Brown, Danny Kanell and Kent Graham ring in infamy in Giants fans ears.
The opportunity is here. Take advanatge of it.
On another note many QB-centric fans, myself included, would also be ok with going in another direction. It's not a slam dunk imo but it is the way I'd go if it was my call.
omg don't even mention the Wilson pick. They missed out on Doug Martin and then panicked.
Good god, the guy lost his best WR and you dont think Eli wouldnt have had 8 more TDs to meet Rivers and Ben's spectacular 28 TDs?
If I knew more about him and had seen him play at the NFL level even with last years crappy roster it would help. He's a complete Wild Card right now in this scenario.
The new HC and OC are both reputed 'QB whisperers'. Unfortunately not having been here for his rookie season how much can they know? They haven't even gotten to know the young man yet. All they have to go on is his college tape and limited pre-season snaps. Plus some opinions from those who were around last season on the guy. That's pretty thin 'evidence' to pass up on elite prospects at the position.'
We'll see how it all plays out in about a month.
If I knew more about him and had seen him play at the NFL level even with last years crappy roster it would help. He's a complete Wild Card right now in this scenario.
The new HC and OC are both reputed 'QB whisperers'. Unfortunately not having been here for his rookie season how much can they know? They haven't even gotten to know the young man yet. All they have to go on is his college tape and limited pre-season snaps. Plus some opinions from those who were around last season on the guy. That's pretty thin 'evidence' to pass up on elite prospects at the position.'
We'll see how it all plays out in about a month.
in my opinion Davis Webb shouldn't factor into the decision. He was a third round project and a long shot. Get your QB. If Davis Webb emerges as a superstar championship QB we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Nobody will care that we passed on a RB or a Guard if we have a superstar QB in Davis Webb winning playoff games.
The real question is why people want to try to win now with a team that went 3-13 and a 37 year old QB.
What a dumb fucking post.
This is exactly right. And NE thought they had Brady's successor in the building already until Brady went behind Belichick's back to get JG traded.
Also worth noting - Rivers and Roethlisberger are both basically a full year younger than Eli.
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They also aren't picking with the 2nd overall pick. If they were they'd be doing the same thing we are.
The real question is why people want to try to win now with a team that went 3-13 and a 37 year old QB.
What a dumb fucking post.
This is exactly right. And NE thought they had Brady's successor in the building already until Brady went behind Belichick's back to get JG traded.
Also worth noting - Rivers and Roethlisberger are both basically a full year younger than Eli.
good point about their age. And btw I will be laughing the hardest if the Pats fall apart and JG wins a super bowl in SF.
Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB
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I think the QB naysayers are intrigued by Davis Webb and I get it. There is potential there.
If I knew more about him and had seen him play at the NFL level even with last years crappy roster it would help. He's a complete Wild Card right now in this scenario.
The new HC and OC are both reputed 'QB whisperers'. Unfortunately not having been here for his rookie season how much can they know? They haven't even gotten to know the young man yet. All they have to go on is his college tape and limited pre-season snaps. Plus some opinions from those who were around last season on the guy. That's pretty thin 'evidence' to pass up on elite prospects at the position.'
We'll see how it all plays out in about a month.
in my opinion Davis Webb shouldn't factor into the decision. He was a third round project and a long shot. Get your QB. If Davis Webb emerges as a superstar championship QB we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Nobody will care that we passed on a RB or a Guard if we have a superstar QB in Davis Webb winning playoff games.
You will care when we still have a problem at RB 3 years later and Barkley is the best back in the league. How much easier will Eli or Webb’s job be with a threat like Barkley in the backfield. Was Dak really that good or did Zeke make him better cuz defenses had to put 8 in the box?
You have to think big picture here. Barkley is more than a RB he can catch out of the backfield he can block. You can line him up in a WR set in the backfield anywhere and defenses will have to respect his speed and game break ability. And guess who that leaves one on one. OBJ or Engram or Shepard. The combos are endless.
Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB
Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.
Let's say they had previously traded away their top pick this year...assuming it was going to be back halk of the draft. People might then be talking about how to trade up to get a QB.
BTW---those other teams and other QB's you mention have had better and more recent success....adn they also may have no way of getting to the top of the draft
Required reading.
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You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..
Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB
Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.
do I think Eli can still Erin the Superbowl if he had a defense like 2015 broncos? Yes.. absolutely.. should that be what Management should do? No.. it's a very low chance that'll be successful.. our defense sucks.. better to get a franchise QB and work on defense over 10 years to win then to try and win now and being in QB purgatory for 10 years after Eli..
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In comment 13883771 chuckydee9 said:
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You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..
Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB
Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.
do I think Eli can still Erin the Superbowl if he had a defense like 2015 broncos? Yes.. absolutely.. should that be what Management should do? No.. it's a very low chance that'll be successful.. our defense sucks.. better to get a franchise QB and work on defense over 10 years to win then to try and win now and being in QB purgatory for 10 years after Eli..
You know what’s QB purgatory? Is drafting yet another guy who won’t play right away. Eli plays a year or 2 more and then it takes us another 3 years to figure out the guy we took 4-5 years ago can’t play or can’t stay healthy. So there we are 4-5 seasons later being mediocre or bad cuz took a huge risk on a guy who already showed signs of being injured. Meanwhile Barkley is the best back in the league. That’s QB purgatory.
Really? Well they weren’t the same team without him. Dak wasn’t the same QB. They had the same oline. What changed? Oh that’s right their playmaking RB who could take the ball to the house on any play wasn’t there. Defenses weren’t stacking the box because of Alfred Morris. Give me a break.
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You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..
Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB
Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.
Denver had a defense that we're probably not going to be able to put together over the next two years that Eli has remaining on his contract, and beyond that - that Broncos team won the Super Bowl in spite of Peyton. And look where they are now as far as their QB situation.
With all due respect, if that version of Peyton is your reasoning for why it makes sense to build around a 37-year-old Eli, your argument is flawed from the start. There are some very cogent arguments that have been made about why it may ultimately make sense to pass on a QB at #2; yours isn't one of them.
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Tons of teams have great running games with great Kline’s and RBBC’s. You do not need a zeke to have a great running game, but you do need a great OL.
Really? Well they weren’t the same team without him. Dak wasn’t the same QB. They had the same oline. What changed? Oh that’s right their playmaking RB who could take the ball to the house on any play wasn’t there. Defenses weren’t stacking the box because of Alfred Morris. Give me a break.
1. Their OL
2. Morris, in 115 carries averaged 4.8 YPC. Zeke in 225, 4.1
I’m not trying to suggest Morris is better, he’s not.
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In comment 13883771 chuckydee9 said:
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You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..
Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB
Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.
Denver had a defense that we're probably not going to be able to put together over the next two years that Eli has remaining on his contract, and beyond that - that Broncos team won the Super Bowl in spite of Peyton. And look where they are now as far as their QB situation.
With all due respect, if that version of Peyton is your reasoning for why it makes sense to build around a 37-year-old Eli, your argument is flawed from the start. There are some very cogent arguments that have been made about why it may ultimately make sense to pass on a QB at #2; yours isn't one of them.
We wouldn’t be building around a 37 year old QB. We already have pieces and we have a young QB. Both of their lives would be made infinitely better by adding a player of Barkley’s skill. That’s just a fact. I’m not saying we’d win the Super Bowl but we still have a lot of the same players on defense that went 11-5 just a year ago. With an improved oline which we already have( can’t be worse) and adding a player of Barkley’s ability there is no reason why we can’t be competitive this year.
Then when it’s Webb’s time to come in things will be easier with defenses having to worry about SB OBJ Engram. They can’t tee him up.
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The difference between having the #2 pick and having to trade up from where the teams you mentioned are; there is not much anyone can say to you in regard to your argument.
Agreed. If the Giants were a playoff team instead of a 3 win team and picking in the latter half of the round there wouldn’t be any QB talk. Most have made it clear NYG is in a unique opportunity which happens once a decade.
The Cowboys were a 4 win team and Zeke made them. Playoff team. The Giants are in unique opportunity to add a playmaker. A HOF caliber player. That player is clearly Barkley by everyone’s standard. QB would be a forced need pick.
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In comment 13883789 joeinpa said:
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The difference between having the #2 pick and having to trade up from where the teams you mentioned are; there is not much anyone can say to you in regard to your argument.
Agreed. If the Giants were a playoff team instead of a 3 win team and picking in the latter half of the round there wouldn’t be any QB talk. Most have made it clear NYG is in a unique opportunity which happens once a decade.
The Cowboys were a 4 win team and Zeke made them. Playoff team. The Giants are in unique opportunity to add a playmaker. A HOF caliber player. That player is clearly Barkley by everyone’s standard. QB would be a forced need pick.
To be fair, Cowboys were only a 4 win team because Romo got injured and missed most of the season versus the Giants who had zero wins when OBJ went down
Point is Zeke made them dramatically a different team and Romo also went down the following year and their young QB did not miss a beat...why? Cuz of Zeke.
They went from 4-12 to 12-4. They didn’t exactly have the doomsday defense either.
I think everyone here knows Eli is 37 and if there is a franchise QB available at #2 you run and grab him.
The debate is whether the 4 QBs in play are franchise QBs or not.
The people who want Barkley want him because they think he's a special player and they don't think the 4 QBs in play are.
The people who want to trade down want to do so because they don't think much of the 4 QBs in play and don't to draft a RB in the first round. (And a few think Barkley will be the next great Penn State RB bust).
It's also silly to assume all QBs play deteriorate at a straight line by age. Some QB's play falls off at 35. Some at 38. Some lucky ones hit 40. Big Ben has talked about retiring. Do you think if they went 3-13 this year and could draft a franchise QB at #2 they wouldn't consider it? Of course they would. And most of their fanbase would be clamoring for it.
Drafting a QB makes a ton of sense for the Giants, if there is a franchise guy there. Opinions here differ on that and that is reasonable. If they don't see one, or think Eli is still capable of playing at a high level for at least a couple of years, then take the BPA - Barkley, Chubb, etc. I am fine with whatever they do because it is based on their own assessment of what they have, and what is critical to Shurmur's system. But it is in no way unreasonable to think about a QB at #2, nor is it some kind of desperation move.
And unless they draft Allen (or someone later than the top 15 or so) there is no way any QB they select is sitting for 2 years. Darnold may sit a year. Rosen maybe, although he seems more NFL ready and may play this year. If they draft a QB that guy will play when he is ready, not when Eli can no longer play.
No of course not. But they’re also a little more desperate. The Jets haven’t had a QB since Ken OBrien. The Bills since Jim Kelly. Both of them have garbage on their roster or at least guys you cannot rely on. They also don’t have much else to work with so a rookie QB makes sense because you can take a risk and build around this guy.
He Giants I feel are in a different position. Despite the haters they have a vet Qb who can play and who management feels can still play. They have a rookie QB and a HC who is good at making almost any QB look good. They also have arguably the best WR in the game, a good 2nd WR and a good rookie TE. They have weapons. They’re a year removed from the playoffs. In other words they have some pieces and are further along than the Jets or the Bills.
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You'll realize Ben and Philip have been playing much better than Eli over the last 2 years.. regardless of how bad a team is.. I doubt a stud QB winds only wins 3 games.. just look at JG in San Francisco.. the 49ers had 1 win in 11 games were just as bad as us.. actually our WR and TE were better than theirs.. yet JG was able to come in mid season and win.. if your QB isn't able to win games then he should be replaced..
Eli is no longer the 2011 stud QB and that is why you draft someone who has a good chance to be there next franchise QB
Peyton Manning in his last year couldn’t throw the ball 30 yards and he won a SB. You cannot sit there and tell me that a dynamic player like Barkley and what he will do to open the offense up for Eli won’t make him better.
Are you kidding? They won that SB with their defense and ancillary players on offense. Peyton was a crutch and they only wanted him on the field for his mind/leadeship.
Hell, he almost lost them the SB the way he played.
But we don't, so find a QB...
I think everyone here knows Eli is 37 and if there is a franchise QB available at #2 you run and grab him.
The debate is whether the 4 QBs in play are franchise QBs or not.
The people who want Barkley want him because they think he's a special player and they don't think the 4 QBs in play are.
The people who want to trade down want to do so because they don't think much of the 4 QBs in play and don't to draft a RB in the first round. (And a few think Barkley will be the next great Penn State RB bust).
True. I want Barkley but wouldn’t be upset if the browns pass on Darnold and I wouldn’t be upset if the Giants went for a. Ricky Williams type deal.
They meaning who? The previous regime?
I don't think Webb is a factor. It would be nice if Webb turns into something but I don't think you make this decision based on Webb. If we take Barkley (or trade down) and Webb pans out, great. If we take a QB and Webb pans out, we can trade that QB.
I think the counter argument is how can they possibly have enough info on Webb to know what they have? He played very sparingly in the pre-season, and this GM and coach we're not here to watch him live in practice. My understanding is that he did not get many papractice snaps either other than with the scout team. He may have potential, but I hunk most assume if he has the same potential as a Rosen, Darnold or Allen, that he would have been more talked about when he came out in the draft. He didn't fall to the 3rd round for no reason. He was a project.
I think keeping both would be a waste of high draft picks, and not serve any purpose.
Did you just begin to follow the NFL?
OFC you probably know this but trying to demonize the posters that don't agree with your hardline opinion.
^This^
I think keeping both would be a waste of high draft picks, and not serve any purpose.
^And This^
1) The Eli is done camp. Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. The Eli is done camp say he has been bad since 2013. But, the Giants OL has been putrid since 2012. The Giants under McAdoo also messed with his footwork and mechanics, and I am not sure Eli has ever become comfortable with he changes. And finally, I simply can't evaluate him based on the completely inept offensive schemes put out there by McAdoo over the last 4 years. Yes 4 Years, 2 as OC... Eli may be done, I simply don't know, but whether you draft a QB or not, you want Eli playing in 2018 and Webb or the draftee sit and learn.
2) To those who write off Webb simply because he was a 3rd round pick. Maybe Webb is garbage, maybe he is the future. None of us knows. When he came here, there were questions about his ability to take a snap from under center, footwork, mechanics, play in something other than an air raid system, go through an NFL progression of reads fast enough. Well he has answered all but one of those questions: Can he read fast enough... That increases his value. And really puts him on the same footing as this draft class because most of them come from similar systems, and we don't know how well the can go through progressions either. I would argue that the ability to get through the post snap reads quickly/correctly and with anticipation is the single most important quality of an NFL QB.
3) To those who want Barkley - BY almost every statistic you look at, RBs, including highly drafted ones have virtually 0 correlation to winning football games. This is a passing league now. The 1980s are long gone. Also RBs have the shortest shelf life. So, no impact of winning and losing and a short shelf life. No Thanks, I will look for value elsewhere. That said, Barkley does look like an awesome player.
4) To those who want a trade back - Looking back at history, trade backs have in general not worked well. Blue chip players, pro bowlers, all pros, and HOFers are all highly correlated to winning games. However since there is a huge premium for the 2nd pick for teams wanting a QB, it may be ok, but not so far you miss out on a blue chip player. In other words if you are going to take Nelson or Chubb, move back to 5 or 6 and you can get some pick and still get the player you wanted all along... A player that is a better prospect than the QBs...
5) To those who think is dumb to do anything but get a QB at #2. If there was a clear cut QB prospect to pick from at #2 then sure, Webb and Eli don't matter, go get your franchise QB. And I won't be upset if the Giants grab one. But you don't force the pick just because you are this high and not likely to be here again any time soon.
if you are underwhelmed by these prospects, then you have to maximize your return on the #2 pick somehow. And that is likely a trade back. If you force the pick and the guy doesn't work out, you have set the franchise back 5+ years, and ensured the team of being in QB purgatory. Its a very risky thing to do.
All these scenarios are possible, all have valid arguments. Its interesting to debate the merits of these. Its not very interesting to wade through all the highly emotional posts espousing one point of view and relegating all others being the product of trolls.
*** NOW THAT WAS REQUIRED READING
no where does it say on any of these QB's in the draft 100% Guaranteed Franchise QB. Everybody acts like Darnold and Rosen are (guaranteed).
I want the best player for the Giants. Not grab a QB that is not ready to play or can't stay on the field because of injuries.
I am leaning more towards Barkley for a week of two now. I was in the Darnold camp. I honestly don't think the Giants are going to draft Barkly either. The more I think about it, the more I think they are going to trade the pick.
Expect the unexpected.
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The difference between having the #2 pick and having to trade up from where the teams you mentioned are; there is not much anyone can say to you in regard to your argument.
Agreed. If the Giants were a playoff team instead of a 3 win team and picking in the latter half of the round there wouldn’t be any QB talk. Most have made it clear NYG is in a unique opportunity which happens once a decade.
This. Exactly. Had the Giants made the playoffs, Eli was leading that charge and the Giants were picking 28th, there would be almost zero talk of taking a QB. But NONE of that is the case.
The situations are so different it’s stupid.
Nobody I have seen is suggesting that you take a QB at all costs. You take one if you think they have the potential to be a franchise QB only. But that acknowledges that they may bust. You can't draft in the top 5 by trying to figure out who is least likely to bust. You evaluate the players and trust your system. If a non-QB grades out significantly higher that the available QBs, you take them. If the grades are close, in my opinion you go for the QB because that position is just typically much harder to fix through trade or free agency than any other.