I'm not saying we should follow the advice of a retired coach but he certainly brings up an interesting story about how the Steelers could have transitioned from Terry Bradshaw to Dan Marino! If the Giants feel there is a worthy QB, we MUST go QB! Watch the video from 2:27 to 5:17.
Dungy on the Giants at Pick #2 overall - (
New Window )
I think Dungy's point is very valid. I have been a Josh Rosen supporter from the beginning.
I know people love Eli, but we are New York Giants fans. Not New York Eli fans. He's clearly on the downside of his career. He's 37 and makes a lot of money. You let him start this year until we are out of playoff contention. You have him tutor the young guy and in 2019 you make the switch to the young guy. So you have your new starting QB and you save 17 million in 2019.
When the Packers stopped Rodgers' slide a lot of people questioned that decision.. But since '93 I believe they've only missed the playoffs 5 times. Sustainable success starts at the QB position.
When you have the opportunity that we have you have to take full advantage of it. Obviously it's all boils down to how NYG feels about these QBs but I think they'll find at least two worthy.
I am not 100% sure the Giants feel that way today.
If you choose wrong it also set you back and be in this same position again with a wasted #2 pick.
If you are not 100% sold, draft the BPA and look for the next great one in the next couple of drafts.
Just go look at his numbers without Odell. They aren't good. Here are his averages with Odell for 47 games since 2014 and his averages without Odell since 2014.
With Odell
63.7 completion %, 272 yards per game, 1.85 TDs and 0.85 INTs
Without Odell
59.1 completion %, 222 yards per game, 1.3 TDs and 1.06 INTs
That's a significant difference in numbers. If you put that into a full 16 game season here are the numbers.
With
63.7%, 4352 yards, 29.6 TDs and 13.6 INTs
Without
59.1%, 3552 yards, 21 TDs and 17 INTs.
It's basically the difference between a Pro Bowl QB and a bottom half of the NFL QB. Yo you have to stop looking at his inflated stats. He's not good enough anymore to win.
But he always seems to be a gentleman.
Oh...and yes we should take a QB at #2...
Just go look at his numbers without Odell. They aren't good. Here are his averages with Odell for 47 games since 2014 and his averages without Odell since 2014.
With Odell
63.7 completion %, 272 yards per game, 1.85 TDs and 0.85 INTs
Without Odell
59.1 completion %, 222 yards per game, 1.3 TDs and 1.06 INTs
That's a significant difference in numbers. If you put that into a full 16 game season here are the numbers.
With
63.7%, 4352 yards, 29.6 TDs and 13.6 INTs
Without
59.1%, 3552 yards, 21 TDs and 17 INTs.
It's basically the difference between a Pro Bowl QB and a bottom half of the NFL QB. Yo you have to stop looking at his inflated stats. He's not good enough anymore to win.
You have Odell.
And you have...you have...you have..,actually it’s more like you haven’t.
That’s the better reflection.
Eli's averages without Odell 59.1%, 222 yards, 1.3 TDs and 1.06 INTs
Geno's averages without Odell
61.7%, 212 yards, 1.0 TDs and 0.00 INTs.
Not saying Geno is better then Eli, but to have numbers anywhere near Geno isn't good. I'm just being honest and saying Eli is nothing more then a middle of the pack QB at this point in his career. It's not going to get better the older he gets.
Eli just isn't that guy anymore. So basically if Odell gets hurt we are fucked. Which shouldn't happen. At one point Eli could and did carry a team. In 2011. He had the 27th ranked defense and 32nd ranked run game. Yet made the playoffs and won a Super Bowl.
Those stats I posted are inflated from 2014. If you break Eli's numbers from 2017 down with and without Odell it's much much worse.
The Browns are taking Darnold. That leaves Rosen, with his history of concussions. His off the field actions may also concern the Giants.
But if you are paying the guy 23 million you expect him to make the guys around him better. He hasn't done that for years. In 2017 it was really bad.
The Browns are taking Darnold. That leaves Rosen, with his history of concussions. His off the field actions may also concern the Giants.
Off the field actions? What off the field actions?
Eli's averages without Odell 59.1%, 222 yards, 1.3 TDs and 1.06 INTs
Geno's averages without Odell
61.7%, 212 yards, 1.0 TDs and 0.00 INTs.
Not saying Geno is better then Eli, but to have numbers anywhere near Geno isn't good. I'm just being honest and saying Eli is nothing more then a middle of the pack QB at this point in his career. It's not going to get better the older he gets.
I’m not trying to defend Eli here, because his best days are behind him, but one game from Geno is not enough of a sample size. The Raiders D was horrible last year, especially against the pass. I don’t think what Geno did in that game can fairly be compared to Eli’s year.
I’m all for drafting a QB. I’m just not convinced it has to be in round one.
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And once you get past Odell, Eli (and geno) had no one. You look at it as if it’s a qb issue when it’s really a WR issue.
But if you are paying the guy 23 million you expect him to make the guys around him better. He hasn't done that for years. In 2017 it was really bad.
After week four, no QB was going to make the Giants island of misfit toys better. Defenses took Engram away and dated Eli to beat them with King and Lewis.
No I'm not saying WRs aren't important. What I am saying is that we are blinded to how bad Eli has been, because of inflated numbers by a generational talent. Also some are blinded by their loyalty to Eli.
Odell resurrected Eli's career, but he's been on a downslide since the last SB. In 2012 & 2013 we had Nicks, Cruz, Randle, Hixon, Martellus Bennett. So we had plenty of talent around him. In those two years he completed 58.7%, 242 yards per game, 44 TDs and 42 INTs.
When it gets to that point that's when you have to make the switch at QB.
Everybody wanted to blame Coughlin, Gilbride, McAdoo, Reese etc etc. Fair enough they all made there share of mistakes. There has only been 1 constant since 2012 and that's Eli Manning. Since the last Super Bowl he's went 42-54 with only 1 division title & 1 playoff appearance. If the Cowboys, Eagles, Redskins or Jets kept status quo in regards to their QB with those numbers and that record we'd be laughing and hoping they continue to make dumb decisions when it comes to QB. Since it's our guy whose won us 2 SBs a lot of people continue to act like their isn't a problem at QB.
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he said was that the Giants should take a QB at #2 if their evaluation indicates that at least one is worth that pick. He also said that they shouldn't if they decide that isn't true.
The Browns are taking Darnold. That leaves Rosen, with his history of concussions. His off the field actions may also concern the Giants.
Off the field actions? What off the field actions?
His comments, etc. I've said on many occasions they don't mean anything to me, but they might to the Giants, especially after last season, and given the media cauldron that is New York. I wouldn't take Rosen because of his injury history, but he's certainly not a remote thrower.
When it gets to that point that's when you have to make the switch at QB.
Everybody wanted to blame Coughlin, Gilbride, McAdoo, Reese etc etc. Fair enough they all made there share of mistakes. There has only been 1 constant since 2012 and that's Eli Manning. Since the last Super Bowl he's went 42-54 with only 1 division title & 1 playoff appearance. If the Cowboys, Eagles, Redskins or Jets kept status quo in regards to their QB with those numbers and that record we'd be laughing and hoping they continue to make dumb decisions when it comes to QB. Since it's our guy whose won us 2 SBs a lot of people continue to act like their isn't a problem at QB.
A very fair and well thought out point. I would agree that Eli has not played up to expectations and I do throw 2017 out as just an impossible situation. You can place me in the camp of I think Eli can still turn on winning seasons if you give him an OL and a running, which he hasn’t had beginning in 2012. I think ultimately, Gilbride and Coughlin paid for Reese’s failures and Eli has suffered for them.
If anything Eli should be lauded for being able to survive and be able to do anything productively.
Mcadoo was so far out of his depth and if you even look at it, he really got the job due to Tom Coughlins offensive schemes and the playmaking ability of Beckham.
Defenses knew exactly what we were going to do and they just needed one base set defense to defend us.
Eli can play and he is durable enough that in an effective offense he can put up stats similar to what he did under gilbride and Coughlin.
I for one am excited to see Eli working behind a competent offensive line, a running game that is efficient and under the direction of a proven offensive minded coach in Pat Shurmur
The Vikings paid Case Keenum 2 million last year and won games.
When 1 player is taking up 15% of your salary cap space he needs to win games without having everything perfect around him. We do not have that anymore. That's why it is time to move on.
I still think QB Darnold goes #1 followed by a "trade down" and we end up with Chubb, Barkley or Nelson. So many possibilities and everything depends on the Giants value board.
If QB is viewed as need and a priority he might.
Eli has been traumatized by our OK>average> hideous OL for half his career. What he has left, maybe even had to some degree, could be energized by what appears to be (much) a better OL.
If he can flush out the recent past, or not, '18 will reveal it. Drafting a QB depends on whether they feel he can or not.
'18 is Eli's, at least to start.; '19 at the moment likely his also. But if they go QB @2, lots of the above addressed, and Elis play and the QBs development will dictate the rest.
Are we seriously gonna judge a 37 year old in 2018 off of what he did in 2009/2010/2011 when he was 28/29/30 years old?
That's absolutely absurd. That's the problem with a lot of Giants fans. They want to judge a guy off of what he did 7-9 years ago. That's why they don't want to take a QB at 2.
Gettleman won't want to risk losing Darnold. So the Giants trade up to 1 to get their QB. The Browns drop a spot, grab a few extra picks and still get their QB.
That's really the only logical plan for the Giants.
Are we seriously gonna judge a 37 year old in 2018 off of what he did in 2009/2010/2011 when he was 28/29/30 years old?
That's absolutely absurd. That's the problem with a lot of Giants fans. They want to judge a guy off of what he did 7-9 years ago. That's why they don't want to take a QB at 2.
It's clear as day why people want to stick with Eli. He's the best offensive player in Giants history. So they are loyal to him for his career and his Super Bowls. Which is understandable. I totally get it. Although that's how bad teams become even worse when they allow emotions to get involved. He's my favorite football player ever, but at the end of the day I root for the New York Giants. Not the New York Eli's. The best thing for the New York Giants future is to move on from Eli and draft a QB.
Luckily Gettleman isn't scared to keep his emotions out of it and is willing to move on from fan favorites or franchise players. It lost him his job in Carolina.
Eli just isn't that guy anymore. So basically if Odell gets hurt we are fucked. Which shouldn't happen. At one point Eli could and did carry a team. In 2011. He had the 27th ranked defense and 32nd ranked run game. Yet made the playoffs and won a Super Bowl.
Those stats I posted are inflated from 2014. If you break Eli's numbers from 2017 down with and without Odell it's much much worse.
Do you honestly think any QB in the league would have won with that POS roster we had last year. OL that stunk at WRs that should have been playing semi-pro. By the way we didn't lose 1 WR last year. We lost the top 4 we had.
The Vikings paid Case Keenum 2 million last year and won games.
When 1 player is taking up 15% of your salary cap space he needs to win games without having everything perfect around him. We do not have that anymore. That's why it is time to move on.
Well I wouldn’t say perfect. Just better than non existent. I don’t disagree with your fundamental point. The Giants do need to move on from Eli. I just think it’s more of an exit ramp than an abrupt stop. Given what proven starters at QB are getting now days I think Eli’s current contract is good value.
If there was an Andrew Luck in this draft I’d be the first to say go get him. I’m just not overly impressed with the top QB prospects this year to the point where I’m ready to end the Eli era just yet. It must end soon but I’d rather see a transition than an abrupt change.
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That's my whole point though. If he needs everything perfect good OL, RB & WRs to win then you have to move on. You can't pay a guy 22-23 million that needs for everything to be perfect to win.
The Vikings paid Case Keenum 2 million last year and won games.
When 1 player is taking up 15% of your salary cap space he needs to win games without having everything perfect around him. We do not have that anymore. That's why it is time to move on.
Well I wouldn’t say perfect. Just better than non existent. I don’t disagree with your fundamental point. The Giants do need to move on from Eli. I just think it’s more of an exit ramp than an abrupt stop. Given what proven starters at QB are getting now days I think Eli’s current contract is good value.
If there was an Andrew Luck in this draft I’d be the first to say go get him. I’m just not overly impressed with the top QB prospects this year to the point where I’m ready to end the Eli era just yet. It must end soon but I’d rather see a transition than an abrupt change.
Well I wouldn’t say perfect. Just better than non existent. I don’t disagree with your fundamental point. The Giants do need to move on from Eli. I just think it’s more of an exit ramp than an abrupt stop. Given what proven starters at QB are getting now days I think Eli’s current contract is good value.
If there was an Andrew Luck in this draft I’d be the first to say go get him. I’m just not overly impressed with the top QB prospects this year to the point where I’m ready to end the Eli era just yet. It must end soon but I’d rather see a transition than an abrupt change.
But its time.
Too many want to win a 3rd ring for Eli instead of wanting to win a 5th ring for the Giants.
This is the New York Giants. Not the New York Eli’s.
It's clear as day why people want to stick with Eli. He's the best offensive player in Giants history. So they are loyal to him for his career and his Super Bowls. Which is understandable. I totally get it. Although that's how bad teams become even worse when they allow emotions to get involved. He's my favorite football player ever, but at the end of the day I root for the New York Giants. Not the New York Eli's. The best thing for the New York Giants future is to move on from Eli and draft a QB.
Luckily Gettleman isn't scared to keep his emotions out of it and is willing to move on from fan favorites or franchise players. It lost him his job in Carolina.
That’s rebutting a statement not made. You said “that’s why people don’t want to take are a QB at #2.” You don’t know why they don’t want a QB. It could be many reasons and it probably is. Taking a QB is reflexive; given all the things people cite about the current state of the QBs on this team, not taking one is actually more complex. People may support Eli, for all the reasons you listed, which was the question you answered but which was not asked, but still want someone not a QB for reasons independent of Eli.
Point is, you can only ascribe motivation to yourself with any degree of knowledge. You don’t know what the thought processes of others are.
RG3 might have had a totally different career under Dungy than he had in the madhouse in DC.
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In reality, do we actually need anyone other than a QB on offense? It would save on meal money
No I'm not saying WRs aren't important. What I am saying is that we are blinded to how bad Eli has been, because of inflated numbers by a generational talent. Also some are blinded by their loyalty to Eli.
Odell resurrected Eli's career, but he's been on a downslide since the last SB. In 2012 & 2013 we had Nicks, Cruz, Randle, Hixon, Martellus Bennett. So we had plenty of talent around him. In those two years he completed 58.7%, 242 yards per game, 44 TDs and 42 INTs.
The same year Nicks was clearly banged up post Bucs game? They had no #1 and Bennett was always overrated on this board as a receiver.
Lastly, citing 2014 to now for the receivers outside Odell.
Randle who's out of the league essentially as a starter
Cruz who is out of the league
Preston Parker
Larry Donnell out of the league
Will The...haha!
Marshall who may as well be out of the league with how unable he was to break away from separating from DB's
I think Eli is a bit of a coach killer now.
He can't carry the team and does not play well enough to justify his salary but he is popular with the fans and the media.
If the Giant brass feel that one of the top rated qb's in this draft rate the #2 pick then they have to pull the trigger.
Imo, defenses have really caught up to Eli. Eli's biggest advantage in his prime was his ability to read the defense and adjust the play call.
But the past few years Defenses don't tip their hand as much and disguise what they are doing much better. In fact I have witnessed more than once Defenses baiting Elli into making an incorrect audible.
Eli was never going to beat the D with his athleticism or arm. It was always his brain and football IQ that separated him from the rest.
No more.
Eli can't rely on his legs to make a difference like some of the mobile qb's around the league.
The only way we can win with Eli as Qb imo, is to staff up a stifling D and go with a ground and pound game relying on Eli not to turn over the ball and make the right decisions.
We are a long ways from having that type of D and we are a ways from having the OL and Rb needed to play that type of game.
So lets not overthink or outsmart ourselves in the draft and take what is there for us both for now and for the next 10 years.
The Giants doubled down on Eli last year with resources at receiver
That team should have signed an OL like Whitworth. Drafted defense like Watt. Made a gamble on an Adrian Petersen instead of Marshall. At least Blount.
Im not sure how much better it works out but it was more realistic.
What if most of feel that we're right and you're wrong. That ELi is in decline?
So many of feel you are wrong, then that means the QB must be taken.
I think Eli is a bit of a coach killer now.
He can't carry the team and does not play well enough to justify his salary but he is popular with the fans and the media.
If the Giant brass feel that one of the top rated qb's in this draft rate the #2 pick then they have to pull the trigger.
Imo, defenses have really caught up to Eli. Eli's biggest advantage in his prime was his ability to read the defense and adjust the play call.
But the past few years Defenses don't tip their hand as much and disguise what they are doing much better. In fact I have witnessed more than once Defenses baiting Elli into making an incorrect audible.
Eli was never going to beat the D with his athleticism or arm. It was always his brain and football IQ that separated him from the rest.
No more.
Eli can't rely on his legs to make a difference like some of the mobile qb's around the league.
The only way we can win with Eli as Qb imo, is to staff up a stifling D and go with a ground and pound game relying on Eli not to turn over the ball and make the right decisions.
We are a long ways from having that type of D and we are a ways from having the OL and Rb needed to play that type of game.
So lets not overthink or outsmart ourselves in the draft and take what is there for us both for now and for the next 10 years.
I think you are making all of this up. Eli is old. That's his problem. And the Giant brass better not be scared of him or the fans.
The Giants doubled down on Eli last year with resources at receiver
That team should have signed an OL like Whitworth. Drafted defense like Watt. Made a gamble on an Adrian Petersen instead of Marshall. At least Blount.
Im not sure how much better it works out but it was more realistic.
IMO you are 100% right. This is how they should try to play the next 10+ years even if they select (and i hope they do)- the QB. Then build an Oline around him with a RB. Don't worry as much about WR's. And build the defense. Biggest key is the OLINE. Need to be able to run the football so the QB doesn't get over-exposed.
If you aren't getting OLinemen then you're piling on the defense.
I am not 100% sure the Giants feel that way today.
If you choose wrong it also set you back and be in this same position again with a wasted #2 pick.
If you are not 100% sold, draft the BPA and look for the next great one in the next couple of drafts.
Is Rivers a great QB?
The question then is how much his decline should affect who we take at #2. And the answer is not at all. Webb has no effect either. You take the BPA.
Darnold is the only QB even worth discussing at #2. But the Browns will likely take him at #1, and will undoubtedly want a ton to give him up. What Chicago gave up to get Trubisky won't be enough IMO. The Browns have been in "QB hell" for decades, and Darnold is the "cleanest" of the QB prospects. I think it would cost our second this year, and first in 2019.
That leaves Rosen, since I assume nobody wants Allen at #2. Rosen's injury history is preclusive IMO, but I will trust the Giants' judgement if they take him.
So it's too expensive to move up to get Darnold at #1, and there is no other QB worth the #2 pick.
Take Barkley or trade down, preferably the latter.
The question then is how much his decline should affect who we take at #2. And the answer is not at all. Webb has no effect either. You take the BPA.
Darnold is the only QB even worth discussing at #2. But the Browns will likely take him at #1, and will undoubtedly want a ton to give him up. What Chicago gave up to get Trubisky won't be enough IMO. The Browns have been in "QB hell" for decades, and Darnold is the "cleanest" of the QB prospects. I think it would cost our second this year, and first in 2019.
That leaves Rosen, since I assume nobody wants Allen at #2. Rosen's injury history is preclusive IMO, but I will trust the Giants' judgement if they take him.
So it's too expensive to move up to get Darnold at #1, and there is no other QB worth the #2 pick.
Take Barkley or trade down, preferably the latter.
Hate taking BPA for the number 2 pick unless it is same position comparitively. Don't think it applies to the most important position on the field which is QB.
Like you I'll have to accept Giants judgememnt but am against the BPA when it comes to QB's vs the field. Dallas can't do shit when they are behind. Until that QB shows something -- and many other teams - they need a lot of luck to be championship winners.
For sustainment the best option is the QB. He doesn't need to be tom Brady. Just a very good football player.
As for Darnold, I'll trust the Giants judgment when it comes to him, but his disappointing performance in the athletic testing at the combine was a red flag. How is it that the tennis player out-jumped the basketball player in both the vertical and broad jump and was quicker in the short shuttle (the three athletic tests which Gettleman favors most)? That and the reports that he was disappointing on the white board in interviews suggest a poor work ethic/preparation. I use the word "suggest" because I'm not saying for sure it means a poor work ethic, but it's a red flag that requires more research (the kind of research unavailable to the likes of you and me).
Baker Mayfield is the wild card in my book. Tons of character issues that require (again) the kind of research unavailable to us peons, so I'll leave it the Giants team of crack psychological profilers to discern his viability on that front. As far as his play on the football field, I think he is the QB with the second highest floor (after Rosen). Not sure what his ceiling is, but it's high enough to take him with the second pick in the draft if the character concerns could be alleviated. Like I said, I'll leave it up to Gettleman to decide.
But once you get past the QBs, I don't think any of the prospects are worthy of the #2 overall selection. Not Barkley, not Chubb, and not Nelson. Believe it or not, Connor Williams might be my highest rated non-QB, and it's not because I think he is worth a top five pick.
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...and it's really not close.
This is exactly how I feel about Rosen. There is a huge gap between him and the next prospect on the big board in my head. Which is why I tend to support the idea of trading down if Rosen should go #1 overall (more likely than people realize).
As for Darnold, I'll trust the Giants judgment when it comes to him, but his disappointing performance in the athletic testing at the combine was a red flag. How is it that the tennis player out-jumped the basketball player in both the vertical and broad jump and was quicker in the short shuttle (the three athletic tests which Gettleman favors most)? That and the reports that he was disappointing on the white board in interviews suggest a poor work ethic/preparation. I use the word "suggest" because I'm not saying for sure it means a poor work ethic, but it's a red flag that requires more research (the kind of research unavailable to the likes of you and me).
Baker Mayfield is the wild card in my book. Tons of character issues that require (again) the kind of research unavailable to us peons, so I'll leave it the Giants team of crack psychological profilers to discern his viability on that front. As far as his play on the football field, I think he is the QB with the second highest floor (after Rosen). Not sure what his ceiling is, but it's high enough to take him with the second pick in the draft if the character concerns could be alleviated. Like I said, I'll leave it up to Gettleman to decide.
But once you get past the QBs, I don't think any of the prospects are worthy of the #2 overall selection. Not Barkley, not Chubb, and not Nelson. Believe it or not, Connor Williams might be my highest rated non-QB, and it's not because I think he is worth a top five pick.
Personally I don’t believe that Darnold is the consensus number one QB that so many people report. I think Rosen is easily the best QB in the class. I do think that Mayfield and Darnold could eventually surpass him in certain manners but they need to catch up to him first.
Just go look at his numbers without Odell. They aren't good. Here are his averages with Odell for 47 games since 2014 and his averages without Odell since 2014.
With Odell
63.7 completion %, 272 yards per game, 1.85 TDs and 0.85 INTs
Without Odell
59.1 completion %, 222 yards per game, 1.3 TDs and 1.06 INTs
That's a significant difference in numbers. If you put that into a full 16 game season here are the numbers.
With
63.7%, 4352 yards, 29.6 TDs and 13.6 INTs
Without
59.1%, 3552 yards, 21 TDs and 17 INTs.
It's basically the difference between a Pro Bowl QB and a bottom half of the NFL QB. Yo you have to stop looking at his inflated stats. He's not good enough anymore to win.
Or Eli's been playing on one of the worst rosters in the NFL as evidenced by our draft record from 2010 to 2014.
Eli just isn't that guy anymore. So basically if Odell gets hurt we are fucked. Which shouldn't happen. At one point Eli could and did carry a team. In 2011. He had the 27th ranked defense and 32nd ranked run game. Yet made the playoffs and won a Super Bowl.
Those stats I posted are inflated from 2014. If you break Eli's numbers from 2017 down with and without Odell it's much much worse.
How can you be so confident in your statement when he did not have a coach that put a proper offense together and did not have a GM that could put an OL together?
I am not defending Eli in any way, shape or form, but there were other major issues on this team that did not help him out at all.
Do you want just Webb as an option, especially when you’re guaranteed a choice of Baker, Darnold , Rosen and Allen, minus 1 , perhaps? Just wondering , but, again, it’s never Eli’s fault .