He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
So you want Eli to turn Practice Squad players into stars? Eli's numbers last year were actually pretty respectable considering the circumstances. The below stats are for 15 games since he was benched for Geno for 1 game. With another game he would have had close to 4,000 yards and over 20tds. Factor in the 29 dropped balls and those number would be significantly higher. Eli was not the problem.
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
No offense but that is a statement made in a vacuum. It is one thing to make Domenik Hixon, Steve Smith (before he took over), Mario Manningham and Rueben Randall look better and a whole other thing for guys off the street that very season or even mid season.
Nobody was making that receiving group after week 5 look good period.
RE: RE: I think you guys are missing something else
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
Who is to say he didnt make them better? I mean we are talking about absolute scrubs who played from week 5 on. Engram had very good rookie year. SS produced in a lot of game despite being hurt.
Are we talking he didnt make King and Lewis all-pros? Well gee golly, shame on him....haha
Eli Manning's stats when throwing to Sterling Sheppard this year:
as a knock on Eli all the time. My contention would be that Eli has always delivered the ball to plus players.
For instance, even this past farce of a season, Engram as a rookie TE was productive as a receiver and his stats show it. He is a plus talent who can get open and Eli got him the ball. Eli has always done this, but he can not throw it to himself.
Even Beckham, some of his success was likely due to playing with a QB like Eli. It was not a JUGS football machine throwing to him. Eli will put the ball on plus players and allow them an opportunity to produce.
Exactly. I would suggest anyone that wants to give all of the credit to OBJ should look at the video posted yesterday of OBJ's highlights. A lot of the throws Eli hits him right in stride which allows him to get those long TDs. Their success is shared not on just OBJ.
RE: RE: I think you guys are missing something else
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
Who is to say he didnt make them better? I mean we are talking about absolute scrubs who played from week 5 on. Engram had very good rookie year. SS produced in a lot of game despite being hurt.
Are we talking he didnt make King and Lewis all-pros? Well gee golly, shame on him....haha
I'm not saying he should turn someone into an all-pros at all.
The amount of different WRs Eli has played with over years and the amount of great WRs he has helped create is really amazing if you think of it.
The Giants have had a ton of turnover there through out his career, and Eli picks up and usually chugs right along.
RE: RE: I think you guys are missing something else
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
No offense but that is a statement made in a vacuum. It is one thing to make Domenik Hixon, Steve Smith (before he took over), Mario Manningham and Rueben Randall look better and a whole other thing for guys off the street that very season or even mid season.
Nobody was making that receiving group after week 5 look good period.
I saw Derek Hagan go from his sofa to being a very productive WR in one week back in 2010.
Early Eli made Kevin Boss and Meat Wagon Ballard look like Jason Witten. Mario Manningham had multiple 100+ yard efforts. Back then, it didn't seem to matter who you lined up with him. 4th string center? Backup guards and tackles? NO PROBLEM!
After 2011, the OL got so bad - I think the problems with Eli are twofold - 1 being shellshock from a half decade of facing constant jailbreak pressure, the other simply being his age. He was nimble out of Ole Miss - not any more.
Like all of us, I'd love - LOVE to see Eli pull another Super Bowl out of his ass. Odds are definitely stacked against him though.
...any Giant fan from the last century full well knows what it's like to have NO WR threats.
The Manning years have presented a wealth of riches at WR that make it easy to take for granted. Who needs Odell? Nicks, Cruz, Burress, Toomer - they're a dime-a-dozen, right?
Wrong - look, I've stated before, I do NOT like Odell Beckham's character. He's a punk among punks.
But he's also the best receiver the Giants have ever had, one of the best Wide Receivers I've ever seen, period.
He deserves to be paid Top-5 money, should command a King's ransom if the Giants want to move him.
Fingers crossed last seasons injury doesn't effect his game.
While I like OBJ and respect his talent you don't need the best WR in football to win Super Bowls. See 2007 and 2011. OBJ is the best WR we have ever had. What do we have to show for it? No playoff wins and only one appearance. Actually an embarrassing playoff loss that OBJ didn't show up for. Eli showed up. Hit WR's in the hands several times for them to drop them. Eli can win without Odell. He's proven it. Can Odell win without Eli? That is the only question.
Anything it seems can be the bat signal for Eli's defense squad - this stat is an indictment of the Macadoo offense and indication of how good Beckham is.
go back and look at 2016/2017 playoff season
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
...any Giant fan from the last century full well knows what it's like to have NO WR threats.
The Manning years have presented a wealth of riches at WR that make it easy to take for granted. Who needs Odell? Nicks, Cruz, Burress, Toomer - they're a dime-a-dozen, right?
Wrong - look, I've stated before, I do NOT like Odell Beckham's character. He's a punk among punks.
But he's also the best receiver the Giants have ever had, one of the best Wide Receivers I've ever seen, period.
He deserves to be paid Top-5 money, should command a King's ransom if the Giants want to move him.
Fingers crossed last seasons injury doesn't effect his game.
While I like OBJ and respect his talent you don't need the best WR in football to win Super Bowls. See 2007 and 2011. OBJ is the best WR we have ever had. What do we have to show for it? No playoff wins and only one appearance. Actually an embarrassing playoff loss that OBJ didn't show up for. Eli showed up. Hit WR's in the hands several times for them to drop them. Eli can win without Odell. He's proven it. Can Odell win without Eli? That is the only question.
2007 and 2011 - both teams had excellent receiving corps.
Try 1986 and 1990.
No, you don't need greatness at any particular position. You need a cohesive offensive strategy. The Parcells Giants were run first. The Coughlin teams had much better balance. The current Giant offense has...
I don't know how to say this without getting killed, but those number really don't merit top-of-the-pay-scale salaries.
7.0 TPA and 91 passer rating isn't that good. If the whole team performed at that level, chances of making the playoffs would be 50-50. To invest in those two like they are the core of a respectably rebuilt contender is a mistake. Eli's locked in for a while, and nobody wants to see Odell leave, but that's a quick path to mediocrity.
go back and look at 2016/2017 playoff season
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Well, you don't really know that.
Eli has played majority of his career without OBJ, ya know?
To me, the compliment each other. OBJ is a special talent, ELi recognizes it, and gets him the ball - hell or high water.
Which btw does NOT include anything from the disastrous 2017 season except for 2 games. I do not know how you can look at this and just brush it off as lazy analysis.
Eli in his prime did elevate players around him, but he also played with some other exceptional receivers in Burress, Toomer, Nicks and Cruz. It is just obvious that none of them were even remotely on Odell's level of greatness. The stats are not nonsense. They show two things:
A) Odell Beckham is not only one of the best receivers in the league, but one of the best players, period.
B) Odell from 2014-2016 elevated Eli's level of play with his greatness.
There is nothing wrong with that. Also, just so I do not have to answer this later, before you say that "take away any QB's number one receiver, and it will look similar". No.
I do not feel like digging through threads to find it, but Gatorade Dunk did his homework on this, and while Odell Beckham has produced a 31 point swing in Eli's career QB rating, Julio Jones has only increased Matt Ryan's career QB rating by 7 points.
go back and look at 2016/2017 playoff season
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Short slants don't turn into TDs unless the QB hits the WR perfectly in stride so that he can beat the CBs and safeties. Eli and Odell share the credit on those plays. It takes a perfectly executed slant to get those long tds.
RE: This is such a dumb stat, and I keep seeing it posted.
...any Giant fan from the last century full well knows what it's like to have NO WR threats.
The Manning years have presented a wealth of riches at WR that make it easy to take for granted. Who needs Odell? Nicks, Cruz, Burress, Toomer - they're a dime-a-dozen, right?
Wrong - look, I've stated before, I do NOT like Odell Beckham's character. He's a punk among punks.
But he's also the best receiver the Giants have ever had, one of the best Wide Receivers I've ever seen, period.
He deserves to be paid Top-5 money, should command a King's ransom if the Giants want to move him.
Fingers crossed last seasons injury doesn't effect his game.
While I like OBJ and respect his talent you don't need the best WR in football to win Super Bowls. See 2007 and 2011. OBJ is the best WR we have ever had. What do we have to show for it? No playoff wins and only one appearance. Actually an embarrassing playoff loss that OBJ didn't show up for. Eli showed up. Hit WR's in the hands several times for them to drop them. Eli can win without Odell. He's proven it. Can Odell win without Eli? That is the only question.
2007 and 2011 - both teams had excellent receiving corps.
Try 1986 and 1990.
No, you don't need greatness at any particular position. You need a cohesive offensive strategy. The Parcells Giants were run first. The Coughlin teams had much better balance. The current Giant offense has...
Odell.
Nobody can do it alone.
Odell is not alone. We have Sheppard and now add to that Engram. Our major problem has been oline play. This effects both Odell and Eli. Hard to throw a deep ball from your back. Hopefully we are well on our way to improving the oline. Then we can really see what Eli can do with these weapons.
RE: RE: This is such a dumb stat, and I keep seeing it posted.
go back and look at 2016/2017 playoff season
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Short slants don't turn into TDs unless the QB hits the WR perfectly in stride so that he can beat the CBs and safeties. Eli and Odell share the credit on those plays. It takes a perfectly executed slant to get those long tds.
Eli also threw a high 3 yard slant to Odell that force him to leap and come down and break an ankle. But only when Odell takes it to the house is it a joint accomplishment
A number that stands out is Manning's YPA without Beckham: 5.7 ...worst in football.
#13 is one of the single most valuable offensive players in the league. Even anecdotally most Giants fans should be able to come to that conclussion. Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: I think you guys are missing something else
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
No offense but that is a statement made in a vacuum. It is one thing to make Domenik Hixon, Steve Smith (before he took over), Mario Manningham and Rueben Randall look better and a whole other thing for guys off the street that very season or even mid season.
Nobody was making that receiving group after week 5 look good period.
I saw Derek Hagan go from his sofa to being a very productive WR in one week back in 2010.
Early Eli made Kevin Boss and Meat Wagon Ballard look like Jason Witten. Mario Manningham had multiple 100+ yard efforts. Back then, it didn't seem to matter who you lined up with him. 4th string center? Backup guards and tackles? NO PROBLEM!
After 2011, the OL got so bad - I think the problems with Eli are twofold - 1 being shellshock from a half decade of facing constant jailbreak pressure, the other simply being his age. He was nimble out of Ole Miss - not any more.
Like all of us, I'd love - LOVE to see Eli pull another Super Bowl out of his ass. Odds are definitely stacked against him though.
You just made the point against yourself in your own post. With time, Eli was able to make no name receivers into serviceable players. He had an elite OL and running backs in Jacobs and Bradshaw that took the pressure off of the WR's as well.
The past few years, you have had no time for these lower level WRs to get open due to a bad OL, and no running backs to caused the defenses to play closer to the line of scrimmage. Therefore, the Giants offense last year was relying on 4th, 5th, and 6th WRs to get open in the amount of time only elite WRs like Odell can get open.
Eli With Odell
Regular Season: 26-38 (40.3%); Playoffs 0-1; Super Bowls: 0-0
Eli Without Odell
Regular Season: 90-70 (56.3%); Playoffs: 6-3; Super Bowls: 2-0
Can't argue those stats!!!
Odell and the D was the reason Eli is not going on a 7 year streak of no playoffs. But let's bring up a decade ago.
The constant defending of Eli even when an article just implies that OBJ is highly valuable to the offense is sickening. It is OK to criticize Eli as the qb of the team you know
A number that stands out is Manning's YPA without Beckham: 5.7 ...worst in football.
#13 is one of the single most valuable offensive players in the league. Even anecdotally most Giants fans should be able to come to that conclussion. Link - ( New Window )
Appreciate your perspective, but it should also be noted that the offense over the past two years was predicated on getting the ball to Odell on a slant route over and over, and not much else.
go back and look at 2016/2017 playoff season
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Short slants don't turn into TDs unless the QB hits the WR perfectly in stride so that he can beat the CBs and safeties. Eli and Odell share the credit on those plays. It takes a perfectly executed slant to get those long tds.
Eli also threw a high 3 yard slant to Odell that force him to leap and come down and break an ankle. But only when Odell takes it to the house is it a joint accomplishment
Nice blame Eli's high throw for another players injury. So I guess Eli is the only QB to throw high to WR. What a terrible statement. It's called bad luck. Eli is not responsible for OBJ's injury. Just bad timing. How many Tds has OBJ dropped in his career. Those drops hurt Eli's stats as well. It goes both ways. But to blame an injury on QB because of a high throw is pretty ridiculous. Wow the negative comments on here about Eli is at an all time low after this one.
RE: This is such a dumb stat, and I keep seeing it posted.
Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Full disclosure, I have not read Barnwell's article. But IIRC from when I did some research myself on this a while back, the variance between Eli/OBJ vs. Eli/non-OBJ is about 4x as impactful as the variance between Ryan/Julio vs. Ryan/non-Julio (that was the simplest comparison because it didn't require a third set of data for a separate QB, like it would with Ben/AB, for example).
That's not meant to be a knock on Eli. But it's also not something that should be brushed aside when considering OBJ's value.
RE: RE: This is such a dumb stat, and I keep seeing it posted.
Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Full disclosure, I have not read Barnwell's article. But IIRC from when I did some research myself on this a while back, the variance between Eli/OBJ vs. Eli/non-OBJ is about 4x as impactful as the variance between Ryan/Julio vs. Ryan/non-Julio (that was the simplest comparison because it didn't require a third set of data for a separate QB, like it would with Ben/AB, for example).
That's not meant to be a knock on Eli. But it's also not something that should be brushed aside when considering OBJ's value.
I think there are a lot of variables that you have to look at... What are each's options like other then their primary receiving target?
For instance, what was Ryan's rushing attack like vs. Eli's rushing attack? Or Ryan's other receiving options?
Those would influence the numbers, I believe. As after Odell, there are few options for Eli, what are Ryan's next options for offense and is the drop off as steep?
so I have no problem showing how much better Eli is with him. The problem again is this.... yes Eli's numbers go down without OBJ... but please someone answer me this.
What skilled players are in the NFL right on now and on a team that were part of the 2014-2016 NY Giants when Beckham exploded?
Is when fans look at things as mutually exclusive. Obviously Eli's numbers are much better when throwing to OBJ than to any other receivers. Of course Eli's numbers are better across the board when OBJ is on the field than when he's not. That shouldn't surprise anyone.
That doesn't mean that Eli deserves no credit for that - he still has to make those throws to OBJ, and therefore plays a huge role in those numbers with OBJ. Likewise, people shouldn't downplay the variance that emerges when you look at Eli's numbers throwing to OBJ vs. any of his other receivers.
The bottom line is, Eli and Odell have a tremendous chemistry together and both of them are likely better with each other than they would be without (obviously we don't have stats for Odell with a different QB to actually verify that).
At some point in the future, we'll see how OBJ plays without Eli, whether that's a result of Eli's retirement, Odell leaving the Giants, or both. Until that time comes, we should appreciate how dynamic these two are when playing together. And we should hope that OBJ stays with the Giants to hopefully develop anything close to the same chemistry with whoever comes after Eli.
RE: Where this topic tends to go off the rails, IMO
Is when fans look at things as mutually exclusive. Obviously Eli's numbers are much better when throwing to OBJ than to any other receivers. Of course Eli's numbers are better across the board when OBJ is on the field than when he's not. That shouldn't surprise anyone.
That doesn't mean that Eli deserves no credit for that - he still has to make those throws to OBJ, and therefore plays a huge role in those numbers with OBJ. Likewise, people shouldn't downplay the variance that emerges when you look at Eli's numbers throwing to OBJ vs. any of his other receivers.
The bottom line is, Eli and Odell have a tremendous chemistry together and both of them are likely better with each other than they would be without (obviously we don't have stats for Odell with a different QB to actually verify that).
At some point in the future, we'll see how OBJ plays without Eli, whether that's a result of Eli's retirement, Odell leaving the Giants, or both. Until that time comes, we should appreciate how dynamic these two are when playing together. And we should hope that OBJ stays with the Giants to hopefully develop anything close to the same chemistry with whoever comes after Eli.
Good post, agreed.
RE: RE: RE: This is such a dumb stat, and I keep seeing it posted.
Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Jesus Britt, I linked this because:
1 I had not seen it before
2. Because of all of the OBJ trade speculation.
You just pulled down your pants down in front of your stalkers for no good reason.
I'm sorry you haven't seen it. It's been posted with regularity here.
Am I not allowed to respond why I think it's wrong?
You started arguing against air. It was not and indictment of Eli until you made it one. I have noticed that people come at you for no good reason. You made this about Eli this time. That's all.
Here are a few stats for the 3 years prior to OBJ being drafted and the 3 years after he was drafted. I am going to ignore last seasons trainwreck.
2011-2013 - Eli passed for 12,699 yards, threw 73 TD's and the Giants rushed for 46 TD's.
2014-2016 - Eli passed for 12,873 yards, threw 91 TD's and the Giants rushed for 24 TD's.
What stands out more than anything is how putrid the running game as been. Giants rushed for 13 TD's in 2014 and then 5 and 6 in 2015 and 2016 respectively.
A number that stands out is Manning's YPA without Beckham: 5.7 ...worst in football.
#13 is one of the single most valuable offensive players in the league. Even anecdotally most Giants fans should be able to come to that conclussion. Link - ( New Window )
Appreciate your perspective, but it should also be noted that the offense over the past two years was predicated on getting the ball to Odell on a slant route over and over, and not much else.
Probably not unlike Mike Tice's Randy Ratio.
The Thrill understands this argument to mean that all data from the last two years must be dismissed because of bad coaching?
was covering all of Eli's career, not just the last few years.
Also recall the theme (or at least one of them) from those threads being about how OBJ-dynamic play props up Eli's numbers as much as others say the lack of Offensive-capabilities as of late have hindered them.
I think its neither here nor there, as OBJ will be traded later this week and Eli will either retire in response, or get beaten out for the starting job by the #2 pick.
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
No offense but that is a statement made in a vacuum. It is one thing to make Domenik Hixon, Steve Smith (before he took over), Mario Manningham and Rueben Randall look better and a whole other thing for guys off the street that very season or even mid season.
Nobody was making that receiving group after week 5 look good period.
I saw Derek Hagan go from his sofa to being a very productive WR in one week back in 2010.
Early Eli made Kevin Boss and Meat Wagon Ballard look like Jason Witten. Mario Manningham had multiple 100+ yard efforts. Back then, it didn't seem to matter who you lined up with him. 4th string center? Backup guards and tackles? NO PROBLEM!
After 2011, the OL got so bad - I think the problems with Eli are twofold - 1 being shellshock from a half decade of facing constant jailbreak pressure, the other simply being his age. He was nimble out of Ole Miss - not any more.
Like all of us, I'd love - LOVE to see Eli pull another Super Bowl out of his ass. Odds are definitely stacked against him though.
I agree with every word, not only that - but what happens to all of Eli's targets when they go to other teams? NONE has succeeded.
if, despite that bad coaching, Odell
(1) analytically, still proved to be perhaps the most valuable non-QB in the league
(2) anecdotally, produced multiple superhuman splash plays
(3) superficially, posted unprecedented HOF-level surface stats
...wouldn't he be particularly valuable in a better offensive environment?
unless you are suggesting that same bad coaching made Odell and Odell alone look better than he actually is?
Is not a God guys, God stats go up over 35% with OBJ on the field. Eli is not the player he was three years ago but without OBJ the last three years he would be making the Lou Gehrig speech at years end.
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
So you want Eli to turn Practice Squad players into stars? Eli's numbers last year were actually pretty respectable considering the circumstances. The below stats are for 15 games since he was benched for Geno for 1 game. With another game he would have had close to 4,000 yards and over 20tds. Factor in the 29 dropped balls and those number would be significantly higher. Eli was not the problem.
62% Comp % 3468 yards 19 Tds 13 INT's
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
No offense but that is a statement made in a vacuum. It is one thing to make Domenik Hixon, Steve Smith (before he took over), Mario Manningham and Rueben Randall look better and a whole other thing for guys off the street that very season or even mid season.
Nobody was making that receiving group after week 5 look good period.
Quote:
Eli used to make the WRs around him better.
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
Who is to say he didnt make them better? I mean we are talking about absolute scrubs who played from week 5 on. Engram had very good rookie year. SS produced in a lot of game despite being hurt.
Are we talking he didnt make King and Lewis all-pros? Well gee golly, shame on him....haha
Eli Manning's stats when throwing to Sterling Sheppard this year:
56/78, 71.8% completion percentage, 12.4 yards/catch, 2 TD's, and 34 1st downs.
For instance, even this past farce of a season, Engram as a rookie TE was productive as a receiver and his stats show it. He is a plus talent who can get open and Eli got him the ball. Eli has always done this, but he can not throw it to himself.
Even Beckham, some of his success was likely due to playing with a QB like Eli. It was not a JUGS football machine throwing to him. Eli will put the ball on plus players and allow them an opportunity to produce.
Exactly. I would suggest anyone that wants to give all of the credit to OBJ should look at the video posted yesterday of OBJ's highlights. A lot of the throws Eli hits him right in stride which allows him to get those long TDs. Their success is shared not on just OBJ.
Quote:
Eli used to make the WRs around him better.
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
Who is to say he didnt make them better? I mean we are talking about absolute scrubs who played from week 5 on. Engram had very good rookie year. SS produced in a lot of game despite being hurt.
Are we talking he didnt make King and Lewis all-pros? Well gee golly, shame on him....haha
I'm not saying he should turn someone into an all-pros at all.
The amount of different WRs Eli has played with over years and the amount of great WRs he has helped create is really amazing if you think of it.
The Giants have had a ton of turnover there through out his career, and Eli picks up and usually chugs right along.
Quote:
Eli used to make the WRs around him better.
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
No offense but that is a statement made in a vacuum. It is one thing to make Domenik Hixon, Steve Smith (before he took over), Mario Manningham and Rueben Randall look better and a whole other thing for guys off the street that very season or even mid season.
Nobody was making that receiving group after week 5 look good period.
Early Eli made Kevin Boss and Meat Wagon Ballard look like Jason Witten. Mario Manningham had multiple 100+ yard efforts. Back then, it didn't seem to matter who you lined up with him. 4th string center? Backup guards and tackles? NO PROBLEM!
After 2011, the OL got so bad - I think the problems with Eli are twofold - 1 being shellshock from a half decade of facing constant jailbreak pressure, the other simply being his age. He was nimble out of Ole Miss - not any more.
Like all of us, I'd love - LOVE to see Eli pull another Super Bowl out of his ass. Odds are definitely stacked against him though.
The Manning years have presented a wealth of riches at WR that make it easy to take for granted. Who needs Odell? Nicks, Cruz, Burress, Toomer - they're a dime-a-dozen, right?
Wrong - look, I've stated before, I do NOT like Odell Beckham's character. He's a punk among punks.
But he's also the best receiver the Giants have ever had, one of the best Wide Receivers I've ever seen, period.
He deserves to be paid Top-5 money, should command a King's ransom if the Giants want to move him.
Fingers crossed last seasons injury doesn't effect his game.
While I like OBJ and respect his talent you don't need the best WR in football to win Super Bowls. See 2007 and 2011. OBJ is the best WR we have ever had. What do we have to show for it? No playoff wins and only one appearance. Actually an embarrassing playoff loss that OBJ didn't show up for. Eli showed up. Hit WR's in the hands several times for them to drop them. Eli can win without Odell. He's proven it. Can Odell win without Eli? That is the only question.
Calm the tears boys.
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Quote:
...any Giant fan from the last century full well knows what it's like to have NO WR threats.
The Manning years have presented a wealth of riches at WR that make it easy to take for granted. Who needs Odell? Nicks, Cruz, Burress, Toomer - they're a dime-a-dozen, right?
Wrong - look, I've stated before, I do NOT like Odell Beckham's character. He's a punk among punks.
But he's also the best receiver the Giants have ever had, one of the best Wide Receivers I've ever seen, period.
He deserves to be paid Top-5 money, should command a King's ransom if the Giants want to move him.
Fingers crossed last seasons injury doesn't effect his game.
While I like OBJ and respect his talent you don't need the best WR in football to win Super Bowls. See 2007 and 2011. OBJ is the best WR we have ever had. What do we have to show for it? No playoff wins and only one appearance. Actually an embarrassing playoff loss that OBJ didn't show up for. Eli showed up. Hit WR's in the hands several times for them to drop them. Eli can win without Odell. He's proven it. Can Odell win without Eli? That is the only question.
Try 1986 and 1990.
No, you don't need greatness at any particular position. You need a cohesive offensive strategy. The Parcells Giants were run first. The Coughlin teams had much better balance. The current Giant offense has...
Odell.
Nobody can do it alone.
7.0 TPA and 91 passer rating isn't that good. If the whole team performed at that level, chances of making the playoffs would be 50-50. To invest in those two like they are the core of a respectably rebuilt contender is a mistake. Eli's locked in for a while, and nobody wants to see Odell leave, but that's a quick path to mediocrity.
This is going to be a hard fix...
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Well, you don't really know that.
Eli has played majority of his career without OBJ, ya know?
To me, the compliment each other. OBJ is a special talent, ELi recognizes it, and gets him the ball - hell or high water.
Eli Manning career stats as of week 2 2017
Targeting Odell Beckham: 63%; 35-7 TD-INT; QB rating 111.4
Targeting anyone else: 59.5%; 285-209; QB rating 79.9
Which btw does NOT include anything from the disastrous 2017 season except for 2 games. I do not know how you can look at this and just brush it off as lazy analysis.
Eli in his prime did elevate players around him, but he also played with some other exceptional receivers in Burress, Toomer, Nicks and Cruz. It is just obvious that none of them were even remotely on Odell's level of greatness. The stats are not nonsense. They show two things:
A) Odell Beckham is not only one of the best receivers in the league, but one of the best players, period.
B) Odell from 2014-2016 elevated Eli's level of play with his greatness.
There is nothing wrong with that. Also, just so I do not have to answer this later, before you say that "take away any QB's number one receiver, and it will look similar". No.
I do not feel like digging through threads to find it, but Gatorade Dunk did his homework on this, and while Odell Beckham has produced a 31 point swing in Eli's career QB rating, Julio Jones has only increased Matt Ryan's career QB rating by 7 points.
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Short slants don't turn into TDs unless the QB hits the WR perfectly in stride so that he can beat the CBs and safeties. Eli and Odell share the credit on those plays. It takes a perfectly executed slant to get those long tds.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
1 I had not seen it before
2. Because of all of the OBJ trade speculation.
You just pulled down your pants down in front of your stalkers for no good reason.
Shepard?
Think about that for a second.
Eli With Odell
Regular Season: 26-38 (40.3%); Playoffs 0-1; Super Bowls: 0-0
Eli Without Odell
Regular Season: 90-70 (56.3%); Playoffs: 6-3; Super Bowls: 2-0
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In comment 13889012 x meadowlander said:
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...any Giant fan from the last century full well knows what it's like to have NO WR threats.
The Manning years have presented a wealth of riches at WR that make it easy to take for granted. Who needs Odell? Nicks, Cruz, Burress, Toomer - they're a dime-a-dozen, right?
Wrong - look, I've stated before, I do NOT like Odell Beckham's character. He's a punk among punks.
But he's also the best receiver the Giants have ever had, one of the best Wide Receivers I've ever seen, period.
He deserves to be paid Top-5 money, should command a King's ransom if the Giants want to move him.
Fingers crossed last seasons injury doesn't effect his game.
While I like OBJ and respect his talent you don't need the best WR in football to win Super Bowls. See 2007 and 2011. OBJ is the best WR we have ever had. What do we have to show for it? No playoff wins and only one appearance. Actually an embarrassing playoff loss that OBJ didn't show up for. Eli showed up. Hit WR's in the hands several times for them to drop them. Eli can win without Odell. He's proven it. Can Odell win without Eli? That is the only question.
2007 and 2011 - both teams had excellent receiving corps.
Try 1986 and 1990.
No, you don't need greatness at any particular position. You need a cohesive offensive strategy. The Parcells Giants were run first. The Coughlin teams had much better balance. The current Giant offense has...
Odell.
Nobody can do it alone.
Odell is not alone. We have Sheppard and now add to that Engram. Our major problem has been oline play. This effects both Odell and Eli. Hard to throw a deep ball from your back. Hopefully we are well on our way to improving the oline. Then we can really see what Eli can do with these weapons.
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Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Jesus Britt, I linked this because:
1 I had not seen it before
2. Because of all of the OBJ trade speculation.
You just pulled down your pants down in front of your stalkers for no good reason.
I'm sorry you haven't seen it. It's been posted with regularity here.
Am I not allowed to respond why I think it's wrong?
Eli With Odell
Regular Season: 26-38 (40.3%); Playoffs 0-1; Super Bowls: 0-0
Eli Without Odell
Regular Season: 90-70 (56.3%); Playoffs: 6-3; Super Bowls: 2-0
Can't argue those stats!!!
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
3-13 and missed playoffs 5-6 seasons...And is 37 going on 38
Those are the only stats that matter
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go back and look at 2016/2017 playoff season
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Short slants don't turn into TDs unless the QB hits the WR perfectly in stride so that he can beat the CBs and safeties. Eli and Odell share the credit on those plays. It takes a perfectly executed slant to get those long tds.
Eli also threw a high 3 yard slant to Odell that force him to leap and come down and break an ankle. But only when Odell takes it to the house is it a joint accomplishment
A number that stands out is Manning's YPA without Beckham: 5.7 ...worst in football.
#13 is one of the single most valuable offensive players in the league. Even anecdotally most Giants fans should be able to come to that conclussion.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 13889004 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
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Eli used to make the WRs around him better.
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
No offense but that is a statement made in a vacuum. It is one thing to make Domenik Hixon, Steve Smith (before he took over), Mario Manningham and Rueben Randall look better and a whole other thing for guys off the street that very season or even mid season.
Nobody was making that receiving group after week 5 look good period.
I saw Derek Hagan go from his sofa to being a very productive WR in one week back in 2010.
Early Eli made Kevin Boss and Meat Wagon Ballard look like Jason Witten. Mario Manningham had multiple 100+ yard efforts. Back then, it didn't seem to matter who you lined up with him. 4th string center? Backup guards and tackles? NO PROBLEM!
After 2011, the OL got so bad - I think the problems with Eli are twofold - 1 being shellshock from a half decade of facing constant jailbreak pressure, the other simply being his age. He was nimble out of Ole Miss - not any more.
Like all of us, I'd love - LOVE to see Eli pull another Super Bowl out of his ass. Odds are definitely stacked against him though.
You just made the point against yourself in your own post. With time, Eli was able to make no name receivers into serviceable players. He had an elite OL and running backs in Jacobs and Bradshaw that took the pressure off of the WR's as well.
The past few years, you have had no time for these lower level WRs to get open due to a bad OL, and no running backs to caused the defenses to play closer to the line of scrimmage. Therefore, the Giants offense last year was relying on 4th, 5th, and 6th WRs to get open in the amount of time only elite WRs like Odell can get open.
Not sure anyone can succeed in that situation.
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Giants Wins and Losses
Eli With Odell
Regular Season: 26-38 (40.3%); Playoffs 0-1; Super Bowls: 0-0
Eli Without Odell
Regular Season: 90-70 (56.3%); Playoffs: 6-3; Super Bowls: 2-0
Can't argue those stats!!!
Odell and the D was the reason Eli is not going on a 7 year streak of no playoffs. But let's bring up a decade ago.
The constant defending of Eli even when an article just implies that OBJ is highly valuable to the offense is sickening. It is OK to criticize Eli as the qb of the team you know
A number that stands out is Manning's YPA without Beckham: 5.7 ...worst in football.
#13 is one of the single most valuable offensive players in the league. Even anecdotally most Giants fans should be able to come to that conclussion. Link - ( New Window )
Appreciate your perspective, but it should also be noted that the offense over the past two years was predicated on getting the ball to Odell on a slant route over and over, and not much else.
Probably not unlike Mike Tice's Randy Ratio.
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In comment 13889082 giantfan2000 said:
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go back and look at 2016/2017 playoff season
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Short slants don't turn into TDs unless the QB hits the WR perfectly in stride so that he can beat the CBs and safeties. Eli and Odell share the credit on those plays. It takes a perfectly executed slant to get those long tds.
Eli also threw a high 3 yard slant to Odell that force him to leap and come down and break an ankle. But only when Odell takes it to the house is it a joint accomplishment
Nice blame Eli's high throw for another players injury. So I guess Eli is the only QB to throw high to WR. What a terrible statement. It's called bad luck. Eli is not responsible for OBJ's injury. Just bad timing. How many Tds has OBJ dropped in his career. Those drops hurt Eli's stats as well. It goes both ways. But to blame an injury on QB because of a high throw is pretty ridiculous. Wow the negative comments on here about Eli is at an all time low after this one.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Full disclosure, I have not read Barnwell's article. But IIRC from when I did some research myself on this a while back, the variance between Eli/OBJ vs. Eli/non-OBJ is about 4x as impactful as the variance between Ryan/Julio vs. Ryan/non-Julio (that was the simplest comparison because it didn't require a third set of data for a separate QB, like it would with Ben/AB, for example).
That's not meant to be a knock on Eli. But it's also not something that should be brushed aside when considering OBJ's value.
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Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Full disclosure, I have not read Barnwell's article. But IIRC from when I did some research myself on this a while back, the variance between Eli/OBJ vs. Eli/non-OBJ is about 4x as impactful as the variance between Ryan/Julio vs. Ryan/non-Julio (that was the simplest comparison because it didn't require a third set of data for a separate QB, like it would with Ben/AB, for example).
That's not meant to be a knock on Eli. But it's also not something that should be brushed aside when considering OBJ's value.
I think there are a lot of variables that you have to look at... What are each's options like other then their primary receiving target?
For instance, what was Ryan's rushing attack like vs. Eli's rushing attack? Or Ryan's other receiving options?
Those would influence the numbers, I believe. As after Odell, there are few options for Eli, what are Ryan's next options for offense and is the drop off as steep?
What skilled players are in the NFL right on now and on a team that were part of the 2014-2016 NY Giants when Beckham exploded?
That doesn't mean that Eli deserves no credit for that - he still has to make those throws to OBJ, and therefore plays a huge role in those numbers with OBJ. Likewise, people shouldn't downplay the variance that emerges when you look at Eli's numbers throwing to OBJ vs. any of his other receivers.
The bottom line is, Eli and Odell have a tremendous chemistry together and both of them are likely better with each other than they would be without (obviously we don't have stats for Odell with a different QB to actually verify that).
At some point in the future, we'll see how OBJ plays without Eli, whether that's a result of Eli's retirement, Odell leaving the Giants, or both. Until that time comes, we should appreciate how dynamic these two are when playing together. And we should hope that OBJ stays with the Giants to hopefully develop anything close to the same chemistry with whoever comes after Eli.
That doesn't mean that Eli deserves no credit for that - he still has to make those throws to OBJ, and therefore plays a huge role in those numbers with OBJ. Likewise, people shouldn't downplay the variance that emerges when you look at Eli's numbers throwing to OBJ vs. any of his other receivers.
The bottom line is, Eli and Odell have a tremendous chemistry together and both of them are likely better with each other than they would be without (obviously we don't have stats for Odell with a different QB to actually verify that).
At some point in the future, we'll see how OBJ plays without Eli, whether that's a result of Eli's retirement, Odell leaving the Giants, or both. Until that time comes, we should appreciate how dynamic these two are when playing together. And we should hope that OBJ stays with the Giants to hopefully develop anything close to the same chemistry with whoever comes after Eli.
Good post, agreed.
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In comment 13888917 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Jesus Britt, I linked this because:
1 I had not seen it before
2. Because of all of the OBJ trade speculation.
You just pulled down your pants down in front of your stalkers for no good reason.
I'm sorry you haven't seen it. It's been posted with regularity here.
Am I not allowed to respond why I think it's wrong?
Are you saying this thread had nothing to do with Eli before I got here?
2011-2013 - Eli passed for 12,699 yards, threw 73 TD's and the Giants rushed for 46 TD's.
2014-2016 - Eli passed for 12,873 yards, threw 91 TD's and the Giants rushed for 24 TD's.
What stands out more than anything is how putrid the running game as been. Giants rushed for 13 TD's in 2014 and then 5 and 6 in 2015 and 2016 respectively.
Quote:
from a better analyst.
A number that stands out is Manning's YPA without Beckham: 5.7 ...worst in football.
#13 is one of the single most valuable offensive players in the league. Even anecdotally most Giants fans should be able to come to that conclussion. Link - ( New Window )
Appreciate your perspective, but it should also be noted that the offense over the past two years was predicated on getting the ball to Odell on a slant route over and over, and not much else.
Probably not unlike Mike Tice's Randy Ratio.
The Thrill understands this argument to mean that all data from the last two years must be dismissed because of bad coaching?
Also recall the theme (or at least one of them) from those threads being about how OBJ-dynamic play props up Eli's numbers as much as others say the lack of Offensive-capabilities as of late have hindered them.
I think its neither here nor there, as OBJ will be traded later this week and Eli will either retire in response, or get beaten out for the starting job by the #2 pick.
:-)
Eli With Odell
Regular Season: 26-38 (40.3%); Playoffs 0-1; Super Bowls: 0-0
Eli Without Odell
Regular Season: 90-70 (56.3%); Playoffs: 6-3; Super Bowls: 2-0
You sure you want to go there?
Eli Manning Career W/L Record: 119-107
Does that mean that Eli has only been a slightly above QB for his career?
Bottom line it it's stupid to pin a W/L record on any one player.
Does that mean that Eli has only been a slightly above QB for his career?
Actually, take away the playoff runs and 2011 and he has been an average QB.
Eli's longevity and performance when it counts is what makes him a great QB.
Quote:
In comment 13889004 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
Eli used to make the WRs around him better.
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
No offense but that is a statement made in a vacuum. It is one thing to make Domenik Hixon, Steve Smith (before he took over), Mario Manningham and Rueben Randall look better and a whole other thing for guys off the street that very season or even mid season.
Nobody was making that receiving group after week 5 look good period.
I saw Derek Hagan go from his sofa to being a very productive WR in one week back in 2010.
Early Eli made Kevin Boss and Meat Wagon Ballard look like Jason Witten. Mario Manningham had multiple 100+ yard efforts. Back then, it didn't seem to matter who you lined up with him. 4th string center? Backup guards and tackles? NO PROBLEM!
After 2011, the OL got so bad - I think the problems with Eli are twofold - 1 being shellshock from a half decade of facing constant jailbreak pressure, the other simply being his age. He was nimble out of Ole Miss - not any more.
Like all of us, I'd love - LOVE to see Eli pull another Super Bowl out of his ass. Odds are definitely stacked against him though.
I agree with every word, not only that - but what happens to all of Eli's targets when they go to other teams? NONE has succeeded.
Accepting the premise of bad coaching...
if, despite that bad coaching, Odell
(1) analytically, still proved to be perhaps the most valuable non-QB in the league
(2) anecdotally, produced multiple superhuman splash plays
(3) superficially, posted unprecedented HOF-level surface stats
...wouldn't he be particularly valuable in a better offensive environment?
unless you are suggesting that same bad coaching made Odell and Odell alone look better than he actually is?
No argument there.