A number that stands out is Manning's YPA without Beckham: 5.7 ...worst in football.
#13 is one of the single most valuable offensive players in the league. Even anecdotally most Giants fans should be able to come to that conclussion. Link - ( New Window )
Appreciate your perspective, but it should also be noted that the offense over the past two years was predicated on getting the ball to Odell on a slant route over and over, and not much else.
go back and look at 2016/2017 playoff season
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Short slants don't turn into TDs unless the QB hits the WR perfectly in stride so that he can beat the CBs and safeties. Eli and Odell share the credit on those plays. It takes a perfectly executed slant to get those long tds.
Eli also threw a high 3 yard slant to Odell that force him to leap and come down and break an ankle. But only when Odell takes it to the house is it a joint accomplishment
Nice blame Eli's high throw for another players injury. So I guess Eli is the only QB to throw high to WR. What a terrible statement. It's called bad luck. Eli is not responsible for OBJ's injury. Just bad timing. How many Tds has OBJ dropped in his career. Those drops hurt Eli's stats as well. It goes both ways. But to blame an injury on QB because of a high throw is pretty ridiculous. Wow the negative comments on here about Eli is at an all time low after this one.
RE: This is such a dumb stat, and I keep seeing it posted.
Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Full disclosure, I have not read Barnwell's article. But IIRC from when I did some research myself on this a while back, the variance between Eli/OBJ vs. Eli/non-OBJ is about 4x as impactful as the variance between Ryan/Julio vs. Ryan/non-Julio (that was the simplest comparison because it didn't require a third set of data for a separate QB, like it would with Ben/AB, for example).
That's not meant to be a knock on Eli. But it's also not something that should be brushed aside when considering OBJ's value.
RE: RE: This is such a dumb stat, and I keep seeing it posted.
Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Full disclosure, I have not read Barnwell's article. But IIRC from when I did some research myself on this a while back, the variance between Eli/OBJ vs. Eli/non-OBJ is about 4x as impactful as the variance between Ryan/Julio vs. Ryan/non-Julio (that was the simplest comparison because it didn't require a third set of data for a separate QB, like it would with Ben/AB, for example).
That's not meant to be a knock on Eli. But it's also not something that should be brushed aside when considering OBJ's value.
I think there are a lot of variables that you have to look at... What are each's options like other then their primary receiving target?
For instance, what was Ryan's rushing attack like vs. Eli's rushing attack? Or Ryan's other receiving options?
Those would influence the numbers, I believe. As after Odell, there are few options for Eli, what are Ryan's next options for offense and is the drop off as steep?
so I have no problem showing how much better Eli is with him. The problem again is this.... yes Eli's numbers go down without OBJ... but please someone answer me this.
What skilled players are in the NFL right on now and on a team that were part of the 2014-2016 NY Giants when Beckham exploded?
Is when fans look at things as mutually exclusive. Obviously Eli's numbers are much better when throwing to OBJ than to any other receivers. Of course Eli's numbers are better across the board when OBJ is on the field than when he's not. That shouldn't surprise anyone.
That doesn't mean that Eli deserves no credit for that - he still has to make those throws to OBJ, and therefore plays a huge role in those numbers with OBJ. Likewise, people shouldn't downplay the variance that emerges when you look at Eli's numbers throwing to OBJ vs. any of his other receivers.
The bottom line is, Eli and Odell have a tremendous chemistry together and both of them are likely better with each other than they would be without (obviously we don't have stats for Odell with a different QB to actually verify that).
At some point in the future, we'll see how OBJ plays without Eli, whether that's a result of Eli's retirement, Odell leaving the Giants, or both. Until that time comes, we should appreciate how dynamic these two are when playing together. And we should hope that OBJ stays with the Giants to hopefully develop anything close to the same chemistry with whoever comes after Eli.
RE: Where this topic tends to go off the rails, IMO
Is when fans look at things as mutually exclusive. Obviously Eli's numbers are much better when throwing to OBJ than to any other receivers. Of course Eli's numbers are better across the board when OBJ is on the field than when he's not. That shouldn't surprise anyone.
That doesn't mean that Eli deserves no credit for that - he still has to make those throws to OBJ, and therefore plays a huge role in those numbers with OBJ. Likewise, people shouldn't downplay the variance that emerges when you look at Eli's numbers throwing to OBJ vs. any of his other receivers.
The bottom line is, Eli and Odell have a tremendous chemistry together and both of them are likely better with each other than they would be without (obviously we don't have stats for Odell with a different QB to actually verify that).
At some point in the future, we'll see how OBJ plays without Eli, whether that's a result of Eli's retirement, Odell leaving the Giants, or both. Until that time comes, we should appreciate how dynamic these two are when playing together. And we should hope that OBJ stays with the Giants to hopefully develop anything close to the same chemistry with whoever comes after Eli.
Good post, agreed.
RE: RE: RE: This is such a dumb stat, and I keep seeing it posted.
Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Jesus Britt, I linked this because:
1 I had not seen it before
2. Because of all of the OBJ trade speculation.
You just pulled down your pants down in front of your stalkers for no good reason.
I'm sorry you haven't seen it. It's been posted with regularity here.
Am I not allowed to respond why I think it's wrong?
You started arguing against air. It was not and indictment of Eli until you made it one. I have noticed that people come at you for no good reason. You made this about Eli this time. That's all.
Here are a few stats for the 3 years prior to OBJ being drafted and the 3 years after he was drafted. I am going to ignore last seasons trainwreck.
2011-2013 - Eli passed for 12,699 yards, threw 73 TD's and the Giants rushed for 46 TD's.
2014-2016 - Eli passed for 12,873 yards, threw 91 TD's and the Giants rushed for 24 TD's.
What stands out more than anything is how putrid the running game as been. Giants rushed for 13 TD's in 2014 and then 5 and 6 in 2015 and 2016 respectively.
A number that stands out is Manning's YPA without Beckham: 5.7 ...worst in football.
#13 is one of the single most valuable offensive players in the league. Even anecdotally most Giants fans should be able to come to that conclussion. Link - ( New Window )
Appreciate your perspective, but it should also be noted that the offense over the past two years was predicated on getting the ball to Odell on a slant route over and over, and not much else.
Probably not unlike Mike Tice's Randy Ratio.
The Thrill understands this argument to mean that all data from the last two years must be dismissed because of bad coaching?
was covering all of Eli's career, not just the last few years.
Also recall the theme (or at least one of them) from those threads being about how OBJ-dynamic play props up Eli's numbers as much as others say the lack of Offensive-capabilities as of late have hindered them.
I think its neither here nor there, as OBJ will be traded later this week and Eli will either retire in response, or get beaten out for the starting job by the #2 pick.
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
No offense but that is a statement made in a vacuum. It is one thing to make Domenik Hixon, Steve Smith (before he took over), Mario Manningham and Rueben Randall look better and a whole other thing for guys off the street that very season or even mid season.
Nobody was making that receiving group after week 5 look good period.
I saw Derek Hagan go from his sofa to being a very productive WR in one week back in 2010.
Early Eli made Kevin Boss and Meat Wagon Ballard look like Jason Witten. Mario Manningham had multiple 100+ yard efforts. Back then, it didn't seem to matter who you lined up with him. 4th string center? Backup guards and tackles? NO PROBLEM!
After 2011, the OL got so bad - I think the problems with Eli are twofold - 1 being shellshock from a half decade of facing constant jailbreak pressure, the other simply being his age. He was nimble out of Ole Miss - not any more.
Like all of us, I'd love - LOVE to see Eli pull another Super Bowl out of his ass. Odds are definitely stacked against him though.
I agree with every word, not only that - but what happens to all of Eli's targets when they go to other teams? NONE has succeeded.
if, despite that bad coaching, Odell
(1) analytically, still proved to be perhaps the most valuable non-QB in the league
(2) anecdotally, produced multiple superhuman splash plays
(3) superficially, posted unprecedented HOF-level surface stats
...wouldn't he be particularly valuable in a better offensive environment?
unless you are suggesting that same bad coaching made Odell and Odell alone look better than he actually is?
Is not a God guys, God stats go up over 35% with OBJ on the field. Eli is not the player he was three years ago but without OBJ the last three years he would be making the Lou Gehrig speech at years end.
A number that stands out is Manning's YPA without Beckham: 5.7 ...worst in football.
#13 is one of the single most valuable offensive players in the league. Even anecdotally most Giants fans should be able to come to that conclussion. Link - ( New Window )
Appreciate your perspective, but it should also be noted that the offense over the past two years was predicated on getting the ball to Odell on a slant route over and over, and not much else.
Probably not unlike Mike Tice's Randy Ratio.
Quote:
In comment 13889082 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:
go back and look at 2016/2017 playoff season
OBJ made so many big catches it is ridiculous
Eli's stats would be much much worse without OBJ short slat turned into long TDs.
Short slants don't turn into TDs unless the QB hits the WR perfectly in stride so that he can beat the CBs and safeties. Eli and Odell share the credit on those plays. It takes a perfectly executed slant to get those long tds.
Eli also threw a high 3 yard slant to Odell that force him to leap and come down and break an ankle. But only when Odell takes it to the house is it a joint accomplishment
Nice blame Eli's high throw for another players injury. So I guess Eli is the only QB to throw high to WR. What a terrible statement. It's called bad luck. Eli is not responsible for OBJ's injury. Just bad timing. How many Tds has OBJ dropped in his career. Those drops hurt Eli's stats as well. It goes both ways. But to blame an injury on QB because of a high throw is pretty ridiculous. Wow the negative comments on here about Eli is at an all time low after this one.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Full disclosure, I have not read Barnwell's article. But IIRC from when I did some research myself on this a while back, the variance between Eli/OBJ vs. Eli/non-OBJ is about 4x as impactful as the variance between Ryan/Julio vs. Ryan/non-Julio (that was the simplest comparison because it didn't require a third set of data for a separate QB, like it would with Ben/AB, for example).
That's not meant to be a knock on Eli. But it's also not something that should be brushed aside when considering OBJ's value.
Quote:
Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Full disclosure, I have not read Barnwell's article. But IIRC from when I did some research myself on this a while back, the variance between Eli/OBJ vs. Eli/non-OBJ is about 4x as impactful as the variance between Ryan/Julio vs. Ryan/non-Julio (that was the simplest comparison because it didn't require a third set of data for a separate QB, like it would with Ben/AB, for example).
That's not meant to be a knock on Eli. But it's also not something that should be brushed aside when considering OBJ's value.
I think there are a lot of variables that you have to look at... What are each's options like other then their primary receiving target?
For instance, what was Ryan's rushing attack like vs. Eli's rushing attack? Or Ryan's other receiving options?
Those would influence the numbers, I believe. As after Odell, there are few options for Eli, what are Ryan's next options for offense and is the drop off as steep?
What skilled players are in the NFL right on now and on a team that were part of the 2014-2016 NY Giants when Beckham exploded?
That doesn't mean that Eli deserves no credit for that - he still has to make those throws to OBJ, and therefore plays a huge role in those numbers with OBJ. Likewise, people shouldn't downplay the variance that emerges when you look at Eli's numbers throwing to OBJ vs. any of his other receivers.
The bottom line is, Eli and Odell have a tremendous chemistry together and both of them are likely better with each other than they would be without (obviously we don't have stats for Odell with a different QB to actually verify that).
At some point in the future, we'll see how OBJ plays without Eli, whether that's a result of Eli's retirement, Odell leaving the Giants, or both. Until that time comes, we should appreciate how dynamic these two are when playing together. And we should hope that OBJ stays with the Giants to hopefully develop anything close to the same chemistry with whoever comes after Eli.
That doesn't mean that Eli deserves no credit for that - he still has to make those throws to OBJ, and therefore plays a huge role in those numbers with OBJ. Likewise, people shouldn't downplay the variance that emerges when you look at Eli's numbers throwing to OBJ vs. any of his other receivers.
The bottom line is, Eli and Odell have a tremendous chemistry together and both of them are likely better with each other than they would be without (obviously we don't have stats for Odell with a different QB to actually verify that).
At some point in the future, we'll see how OBJ plays without Eli, whether that's a result of Eli's retirement, Odell leaving the Giants, or both. Until that time comes, we should appreciate how dynamic these two are when playing together. And we should hope that OBJ stays with the Giants to hopefully develop anything close to the same chemistry with whoever comes after Eli.
Good post, agreed.
Quote:
In comment 13888917 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Take away any team's primary WR and the stats will go down.
The offense for the past couple of years has been Eli and Odell ONLY. No running game, no other real targets besides Sheppard.
Eli's only viable target this year was Engram for most of it, and he got him the ball plenty.
This is not an indictment of Eli, it's lazy analysis.
Jesus Britt, I linked this because:
1 I had not seen it before
2. Because of all of the OBJ trade speculation.
You just pulled down your pants down in front of your stalkers for no good reason.
I'm sorry you haven't seen it. It's been posted with regularity here.
Am I not allowed to respond why I think it's wrong?
Are you saying this thread had nothing to do with Eli before I got here?
2011-2013 - Eli passed for 12,699 yards, threw 73 TD's and the Giants rushed for 46 TD's.
2014-2016 - Eli passed for 12,873 yards, threw 91 TD's and the Giants rushed for 24 TD's.
What stands out more than anything is how putrid the running game as been. Giants rushed for 13 TD's in 2014 and then 5 and 6 in 2015 and 2016 respectively.
Quote:
from a better analyst.
A number that stands out is Manning's YPA without Beckham: 5.7 ...worst in football.
#13 is one of the single most valuable offensive players in the league. Even anecdotally most Giants fans should be able to come to that conclussion. Link - ( New Window )
Appreciate your perspective, but it should also be noted that the offense over the past two years was predicated on getting the ball to Odell on a slant route over and over, and not much else.
Probably not unlike Mike Tice's Randy Ratio.
The Thrill understands this argument to mean that all data from the last two years must be dismissed because of bad coaching?
Also recall the theme (or at least one of them) from those threads being about how OBJ-dynamic play props up Eli's numbers as much as others say the lack of Offensive-capabilities as of late have hindered them.
I think its neither here nor there, as OBJ will be traded later this week and Eli will either retire in response, or get beaten out for the starting job by the #2 pick.
:-)
Eli With Odell
Regular Season: 26-38 (40.3%); Playoffs 0-1; Super Bowls: 0-0
Eli Without Odell
Regular Season: 90-70 (56.3%); Playoffs: 6-3; Super Bowls: 2-0
You sure you want to go there?
Eli Manning Career W/L Record: 119-107
Does that mean that Eli has only been a slightly above QB for his career?
Bottom line it it's stupid to pin a W/L record on any one player.
Does that mean that Eli has only been a slightly above QB for his career?
Actually, take away the playoff runs and 2011 and he has been an average QB.
Eli's longevity and performance when it counts is what makes him a great QB.
Quote:
In comment 13889004 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
Eli used to make the WRs around him better.
He didn't do that last year when the WR crops disintegrated.
Not saying that he's toast, he just isn't what he used to be.
No offense but that is a statement made in a vacuum. It is one thing to make Domenik Hixon, Steve Smith (before he took over), Mario Manningham and Rueben Randall look better and a whole other thing for guys off the street that very season or even mid season.
Nobody was making that receiving group after week 5 look good period.
I saw Derek Hagan go from his sofa to being a very productive WR in one week back in 2010.
Early Eli made Kevin Boss and Meat Wagon Ballard look like Jason Witten. Mario Manningham had multiple 100+ yard efforts. Back then, it didn't seem to matter who you lined up with him. 4th string center? Backup guards and tackles? NO PROBLEM!
After 2011, the OL got so bad - I think the problems with Eli are twofold - 1 being shellshock from a half decade of facing constant jailbreak pressure, the other simply being his age. He was nimble out of Ole Miss - not any more.
Like all of us, I'd love - LOVE to see Eli pull another Super Bowl out of his ass. Odds are definitely stacked against him though.
I agree with every word, not only that - but what happens to all of Eli's targets when they go to other teams? NONE has succeeded.
Accepting the premise of bad coaching...
if, despite that bad coaching, Odell
(1) analytically, still proved to be perhaps the most valuable non-QB in the league
(2) anecdotally, produced multiple superhuman splash plays
(3) superficially, posted unprecedented HOF-level surface stats
...wouldn't he be particularly valuable in a better offensive environment?
unless you are suggesting that same bad coaching made Odell and Odell alone look better than he actually is?
No argument there.