I'm in my mid thirties so all I know of LT is lore and legend. I see so many calling for OBJ's head. Was it the same way with LT? Have times changed so much?
there was no internet, twitter, instagram, facebook, and 942 media heads talking all the time then either..
And OBJ is nowhere even remotely near the caliber of player that LT was. LT simply put is the greatest defensive player to ever play the game of football.. period..
plenty of information on LT being addicted to coke. I believe he was ordered to buy a house for a GF at some point.
He held out and then signed with the NJ Generals. Then the G-Men paid him.
If I am not mistaken (on this, I could be) he would skip training camps
The Giants and the NFL looked the other way with him.
Was he a great FB player? no question, one of the best.
To say he was not a problem child would be fooling yourself.
LT may be the greatest sports franchise impact player in history in terms of leading in the transformation of a perpetually losing organization into one of the most successful football franchises in the Super Bowl Era. If not for LT, we are the Cleveland Browns today...
Made the case yesterday on another thread...link below.
and he was all about winning football games. However, he did get a 30 day suspension for cocaine if I remember correctly. Probably took some criticism but it was the 80's!
Completely different eras with totally different levels of scrutiny. You could go back farther to Mickey Mantle, or farther still to Babe Ruth.
And beyond that, Beckham isn't in LT's universe as a player. That's not an insult to Beckham's ability; it's an acknowledgement of what LT was. There hasn't been a defensive player in his class to emerge since he retired 25 years ago. He was that good.
LT still walks on water .... and I don't think it has anything to do with social media? LT was a great Giant and teammate. I have no first hand knowledge but, I don't get the same vibe from OBJ.
I would take a Herschel like haul for OBJ ... in a heartbeat.
The LT suspension probably cost the Giants a playoff spot in 1988. I also remember he came under scrutiny later in his career for not taking better care of his body (he was so monstrously talented that he didn't need to work out that much when he was younger).
Look, there's no comparison when it comes to impact -- LT is the man. But then again, we know the totality of LT's career, and the book on OBJ hasn't been written yet. LT also got to play with a few guys named Carson and Banks, under a coach named Belichick. If we can ally OBJ with similar talent, maybe things would look a lot rosier...
...if Beckham ran a 3-second 40, THEN I'd compare him to LT...
You simply can't overstate the impact LT had. He was a legend by his second year. Unblockable, usually the fastest cat on the field. Would regularly chase down RB's from behind.
When the NYG were having contract issues with LT, their was rumor if a potential trade with the Raiders - swap of Marcus Allen for LT. I use remembered that this morning.
I think there's a little bit of revisionist history about LT. Â
First, to give the guy his due, he was unbelievably good. If you never saw LT, it's hard to grasp the impact he had on the field. He was the most devastating, disruptive defender I've ever seen, and it's not close. Plus he was incredibly competitive.
However: It wasn't a secret that he was sort of a despicable human being. He joined the replacement players in the 1987 strike, which was a scummy thing to do, and it wasn't hard to figure out that he needed his paychecks for cocaine. Hardly anyone was surprised when he tested positive for cocaine later that year and was suspended.
He didn't generate the kind of fan animus that OBJ does because
1) LT was stoic on the field, where OBJ is kind of a drama queen;
2) There was no social media to expose his off-field stuff, which was far, far, FAR worse than OBJ's off-field behavior;
3) He was on good teams. It was happy times for Giants fans after a long drought.
Judging by OBJ being near cocaine caught on tape Â
Would it be THAT much of a stretch to think he dabbles in that too? It is out of your system in 2 days, so my guess is there are a ton of football players that do it.
LT was a different beast, and he had an actual problem when it came to coke. Being a star in NYC at that time, I cant say im surprised, and I also cant say that OBJ woulda been any different if he was in that time. Just like we dont know how LT would have acted had he been born in this day in age.
The real difference is the on-the-field antics. LT always went about his business and wasn't a "me" player, whereas OBJ seems to be that kinda guy and LOVES the spotlight. However, both play hard and are/were loved by teammates.
I've argued he may have the best physical skills of anyone who has ever played his position.
But LT literally changed football. He would stray on defense - against the design of the defense - but still make incredible plays. Then when the coaches chastised him he would tell them they need to change their system. And to Parcells credit, and then Belichick, they did.
LT made life so miserable for the Skins that he forced Gibbs to use an HBack or TE to help the out on LT (usually Jacoby). Which means the Skins had to essentially alter their entire offense. The rest of the league took notice and had to make similar adjustments...
I don't see OBJ changing the game like that.
Coming to practice hungover or staying up all night smoking crack Â
What I am curious about is the reaction of fans. OBJ is such a lightning rod for criticism (both deserved and undeserved). What I see here is a great many people willing to trade a known stud for picks that may not pan out. LT was known for on field bounties and for sending prostitutes to opposing teams to tire them out. He is unquestionably one of the best defensive players of all time. I was just curious if there were people wanting to trade or cut him because of the off the field behavior.
RE: Coming to practice hungover or staying up all night smoking crack Â
is not having 100% of your focus on football. You can say it is different when it's an addiction but you can't just gloss over it.
When he came to practice at all.
I idolized LT as a kid, but the lengths to which people go to minimize his faults is hilarious. He was good enough to be great despite all of his personal flaws, yes, but that doesn't mean that the flaws weren't there.
RE: Coming to practice hungover or staying up all night smoking crack Â
is not having 100% of your focus on football. You can say it is different when it's an addiction but you can't just gloss over it.
LT was the man on the field. He wanted to win no matter what. My biggest issue is that OBJ makes things about him even at critical junctures of a game. That is an issue that will not get better with more $$$$.
What I am curious about is the reaction of fans. OBJ is such a lightning rod for criticism (both deserved and undeserved). What I see here is a great many people willing to trade a known stud for picks that may not pan out. LT was known for on field bounties and for sending prostitutes to opposing teams to tire them out. He is unquestionably one of the best defensive players of all time. I was just curious if there were people wanting to trade or cut him because of the off the field behavior.
Like someone mentioned before, it was much easier to overlook all of the bad things LT did off the field, because the team was winning Super Bowls. The Giants have made the PLAYOFFS once since OBJ has been here and were a 1 and done. That doesn't get you the same kind of clout that LT had when he was in his hayday. Fans overlook a TON of things when you are winning.
RE: RE: Coming to practice hungover or staying up all night smoking crack Â
I idolized LT as a kid, but the lengths to which people go to minimize his faults is hilarious. He was good enough to be great despite all of his personal flaws, yes, but that doesn't mean that the flaws weren't there.
That OBJ is the most talented player the Giants have had SINCE LT and that OBJ is a true GENERATIONAL TALENT.
As for character issues, LT HAD and still has character issues. LT STILL struggles to be a good person, and fails a lot.
Let's be clear. OBJ does NOT have CHARACTER issues. He's not failing drug tests, breaking laws, cheating on his wife, rehabbing with golf or anything like that.
OBJ has MATURITY issues. He needs to grow up, but NO ONE in the Giants organization questions his CHARACTER. He is a decent person, and very good in the locker room.
They are both super competitive. People don't get that great without that.
If OBJ stays and plays 10 more years at a superstar level, he will probably surpass Eli as the 2nd greatest Giant of all time. LT changed the game and was the greatest Defensive player of all time. OBJ won't be that, but he could put up ridiculous numbers before he's done.
And for those not old enough to remember the LT years, his antics WERE front page news in the NY papers and the fans were WELL AWARE of them.
And there were probably a similar bunch of idiot fans calling for the Giants to unload him, but in the pre-internet, pre-social media world, those fans had NO VOICE. And there were NOWHERE NEAR as many outlets covering the NFL to fan the flames. You had local beat writers, national sports writers, the network pregame shows, and a bit if ESPN. That was it. No NFL network, or constant din of 24/7 sports coverage.
Teams didn't know what to do with LT. Even as he began to age, LT was a force on the field.
I don't say this to diminish what he did off the field. It was a different time -- beat writers weren't fishing for headlines and 24 hour news didn't exist. Legends and heroes were based largely on their on-the-field persona and performance.
Is not close teams game planned on how to stop LT. The man was a monster on the field and it was all about winning not about the me part. OBJ is just a great WR but not a team player at this time. He needs to grow up and focus on winning football games and being the best teammate he can be. LT is on of the best players ever to play the game.
LT was the most feared player of his time (probably of all time) .
Everyone knew what he was doing on and off the field, although not to what extent.
Giants only goal at the time was to keep him in check so he showed up. How many times do you think he was bailed out quietly?
Reality - He would not be able to get on field today. He makes Alton Smith look like an Altar Boy.
OBJ is simply a nuisance, he hasn't broken any laws. he just acts like a spoiled teenager.
Hopefully Giants management can get across to him it's time to grow up.
WR's are replaceable, new faster model every year.
As players there is no comparison. LT changed the game.
He got arrested for having sex with minor. If we're trading Odell for his transgressions than they should take LT's name off the Ring of Honor for that one.
And he seems to be a competitive guy, and liked by his teammates. The difference is mentality on the field. LT was a mess off the field, but in his element when he was actually playing -- to borrow the Marv Levy quote, when it was too tough for everyone else, it was just right for him. I don't care much about the off-field stuff with OBJ, and he looks fantastic when he's running free and having fun. But he's a sensitive person, and we've seen him struggle to get a handle on his emotions when things aren't going his way in a game. Until he comes up big in the playoffs, there will be some doubt as to whether he can rise up when the occasion demands it.
It's anything but apples and oranges. It's similar talents, generational talents. Both good locker room guys. One partied like an animal and played on a better team. The other one played in a different era with the 24 hour news cycle and social media and played on a terrible team.
but I was clueless to anything off the field with most players in sports. However my dad, the Redskins fan, would always fill me in on the drug use and shit LT was involved in so it just sounds like you old guys paid zero attention back in the day. Possibly from crack use?
always devolve into defending how awesome LT was as a player. That's not the point. LT was the best ever. I saw every single LT snap. That's not the point.
The point is LT didn't endure the fan scrutiny that Beckham endures because he played in a different era. Fans today know full well that LT was too wasted to practice sometimes. That his career possibly could have been longer if he took better care of himself. Fans don't seem to care, and that's fine, I don't either....LT doesn't have to explain his career to anyone. He was the GOAT. But he didn't do everything he could to be perfect.
Beckham farts on youtube and fans go ape shit. LT does coke on a saturday night until 5am and those same fans turn a blind eye. Why? Because you're all prisoners of the moment. I get it...so am I...but it's the truth. You hold players of today to a higher standard because you know too much.
LT would party all Sat night and dominate Sun afternoon. OBJ went on a booze cruise and came up small totally sober, 5 days later. If he had caught 3 TDs against Green Bay, there would be different feelings. LT NEVER came up small.
LT would party all Sat night and dominate Sun afternoon. OBJ went on a booze cruise and came up small totally sober, 5 days later. If he had caught 3 TDs against Green Bay, there would be different feelings. LT NEVER came up small.
They lost a playoff game in 94 by 41 points where LT had zero sacks.
Aside from it really not being a valid comparison - LT played for a coach that he respected, and along side a another HOF LB who (with George Martin) provided leadership to the team.
Unfortunately - there are not Harrys or Georges on this team, and no coach who has been able to work with OBJ, as Parcells did with LT.
LT was a better player but also a bigger off field risk.
He wasn't just a "better player". He was the greatest football player in history - on either side of the ball - and #2 isn't even close. And when he was playing football, there wasn't any doubt about his getting distracted or not "being on" - his motor was full-go non-stop 100% of the time.
always devolve into defending how awesome LT was as a player. That's not the point. LT was the best ever. I saw every single LT snap. That's not the point.
The point is LT didn't endure the fan scrutiny that Beckham endures because he played in a different era. Fans today know full well that LT was too wasted to practice sometimes. That his career possibly could have been longer if he took better care of himself. Fans don't seem to care, and that's fine, I don't either....LT doesn't have to explain his career to anyone. He was the GOAT. But he didn't do everything he could to be perfect.
Beckham farts on youtube and fans go ape shit. LT does coke on a saturday night until 5am and those same fans turn a blind eye. Why? Because you're all prisoners of the moment. I get it...so am I...but it's the truth. You hold players of today to a higher standard because you know too much.
See, I think that's exactly the point. If LT got down on all fours in the endzone in the middle of a game and pretended to piss like a dog, then you know what? I wouldn't have been a big fan. Or if LT farted on YouTube, I wouldn't have been a fan. LT did a lot of bad shit because of his drug use - but when it came to football, he was a man, not a little boy.
After watching that tape you will get a glimpse of his greatness as a player. Parcells loved him like the son he never had but he had off the field issues that would be a huge problem today.
He was the greatest game changer in any sport I ever watched ant I am 69 years old.
hey I am not a fan of some of the guy's antics on the field. The Giants scored 2 TDs over the first 2 games of 2017 and got flagged on both of them for acting like jerkoffs.
Beckham needs to grow up. I cannot argue that at all. But you don't give up on him. Not for the 23rd pick in the draft. Fuck no.
I was just curious if there were people wanting to trade or cut him because of the off the field behavior.
There was no equivalent of this Forum. There wasn't even 24-hour sportstalk radio until around 1987, when WFAN came on. But I don't ever remember anyone calling Art Rust Jr. or any other sportstalk show and proposing LT be traded or cut.
always devolve into defending how awesome LT was as a player. That's not the point. LT was the best ever. I saw every single LT snap. That's not the point.
The point is LT didn't endure the fan scrutiny that Beckham endures because he played in a different era. Fans today know full well that LT was too wasted to practice sometimes. That his career possibly could have been longer if he took better care of himself. Fans don't seem to care, and that's fine, I don't either....LT doesn't have to explain his career to anyone. He was the GOAT. But he didn't do everything he could to be perfect.
Beckham farts on youtube and fans go ape shit. LT does coke on a saturday night until 5am and those same fans turn a blind eye. Why? Because you're all prisoners of the moment. I get it...so am I...but it's the truth. You hold players of today to a higher standard because you know too much.
See, I think that's exactly the point. If LT got down on all fours in the endzone in the middle of a game and pretended to piss like a dog, then you know what? I wouldn't have been a big fan. Or if LT farted on YouTube, I wouldn't have been a fan. LT did a lot of bad shit because of his drug use - but when it came to football, he was a man, not a little boy.
So if Odell acted like he did because he had a drug problem you'd be fine with it as long as they won?
Game changers at anytime. LT though played with a great cast all around him. With a little such help OBJ could take his game to another level. We might then be able to brag about having two of the greatest players to ever play this game.
always devolve into defending how awesome LT was as a player. That's not the point. LT was the best ever. I saw every single LT snap. That's not the point.
The point is LT didn't endure the fan scrutiny that Beckham endures because he played in a different era. Fans today know full well that LT was too wasted to practice sometimes. That his career possibly could have been longer if he took better care of himself. Fans don't seem to care, and that's fine, I don't either....LT doesn't have to explain his career to anyone. He was the GOAT. But he didn't do everything he could to be perfect.
Beckham farts on youtube and fans go ape shit. LT does coke on a saturday night until 5am and those same fans turn a blind eye. Why? Because you're all prisoners of the moment. I get it...so am I...but it's the truth. You hold players of today to a higher standard because you know too much.
See, I think that's exactly the point. If LT got down on all fours in the endzone in the middle of a game and pretended to piss like a dog, then you know what? I wouldn't have been a big fan. Or if LT farted on YouTube, I wouldn't have been a fan. LT did a lot of bad shit because of his drug use - but when it came to football, he was a man, not a little boy.
So if Odell acted like he did because he had a drug problem you'd be fine with it as long as they won?
No. I would not be fine with Beckham or LT acting like Beckham.
and motivated his teammates to "go out there like some crazed dogs" and lifted the play of his team. I dont see Beckham as a great leader but he is a great player and i like him. I dont care if he is immature.
so it was Camelot for Jints football. The run from '83 through '91 was spectacular. On the field, LT was Zeus.
The only other player who comes close to LT, in my judgment, was Ronnie Lott. That guy had the goods. Was an all pro corner and safety. And could dominate a game from the back end. A tremendous hitter, ball hawk, leader, thinker. Walsh, Montana and Rice get the bulk of the credit for that team's incredible success. But Lott was the glue and made then one of the most underrated defenses of all time...
Game changers at anytime. LT though played with a great cast all around him. With a little such help OBJ could take his game to another level. We might then be able to brag about having two of the greatest players to ever play this game.
Do not go there with LT and cast in the same sentence.
LT exceled going across the field when the play was away from him.
It was never two pass rushers and one tackle and a back.
LT not only changed the game, but unheard of a TE had to be lined up in the back field to double up LT with a OT.
Teams added an extra TE just for playing against LT.
We are not saying two TE offense but an extra TE on the roster
LT caused the OC to revolve the offense around LT.
Though LT did the scummiest things, was secretly enabled by Parcells, Belicheck, Young and Wellington THERE WAS NEVER A MOMENT FROM MEDIA, FAN OR GIANT EMPLOYEE TO TRADE LT.
He held out one year had subsequent hammy issues and it effected his year.
imo we should do everything to keep OBJ....
BUT OBJ can never impact the game like LT.
Press coverage can probably stop OBJ yet even a TE and OT together would have a more challenging time shutting down LT.
The value of instilling fear in a QB on every dropback is priceless.
Feb. 14, 1986: Enters six-week drug-rehab program in Houston, stays one week.
March 20, 1986: Admits in public statement that he has received help for substance abuse.
Aug. 29, 1988: Given 30-day four-game suspension for second violation of NFL's drug-abuse policy for cocaine use.
March 1989: Fails breath test when police find him asleep behind the wheel of his Jeep beside the Garden State Parkway in N.J.
May 10, 1989: Acquitted in Saddlebrook, N.J., of drunken driving charges.
Sept. 20, 1995: Tries to choke a reporter after a Giants practice.
April 16, 1996: Driver's license suspended for outstanding parking tickets in Newark, N.J.
May 3, 1996: One of 15 arrested in Myrtle Beach, S.C., for allegedly trying to buy $100 worth of crack from undercover police while in town for a celebrity golf tourney. Charges dropped when LT agrees to 60 hours of public service.
June 4, 1997: Pleaded guilty to filing false 1990 income-tax return and failing to report $48,000 income from the now-defunct LT Sports Club in East Rutherford, N.J.
May 13, 1998: Arrested in his New Jersey home in a roundup of deadbeat parents. Released after about 10 hours in jail when a friend pays $6,000 in child support and for an outstanding traffic violation.
Oct. 19, 1998: Arrested again, this time in Florida, for allegedly buying $50 in crack from an undercover cop and for possessing drug paraphernalia.
Nov. 2009: Arrested in Miami for leaving the scene of an accident.
May 6, 2010: Arrested and accused of raping a teenage girl at a hotel in Suffern, N.Y.
Feb. 14, 1986: Enters six-week drug-rehab program in Houston, stays one week.
March 20, 1986: Admits in public statement that he has received help for substance abuse.
Aug. 29, 1988: Given 30-day four-game suspension for second violation of NFL's drug-abuse policy for cocaine use.
March 1989: Fails breath test when police find him asleep behind the wheel of his Jeep beside the Garden State Parkway in N.J.
May 10, 1989: Acquitted in Saddlebrook, N.J., of drunken driving charges.
Sept. 20, 1995: Tries to choke a reporter after a Giants practice.
April 16, 1996: Driver's license suspended for outstanding parking tickets in Newark, N.J.
May 3, 1996: One of 15 arrested in Myrtle Beach, S.C., for allegedly trying to buy $100 worth of crack from undercover police while in town for a celebrity golf tourney. Charges dropped when LT agrees to 60 hours of public service.
June 4, 1997: Pleaded guilty to filing false 1990 income-tax return and failing to report $48,000 income from the now-defunct LT Sports Club in East Rutherford, N.J.
May 13, 1998: Arrested in his New Jersey home in a roundup of deadbeat parents. Released after about 10 hours in jail when a friend pays $6,000 in child support and for an outstanding traffic violation.
Oct. 19, 1998: Arrested again, this time in Florida, for allegedly buying $50 in crack from an undercover cop and for possessing drug paraphernalia.
Nov. 2009: Arrested in Miami for leaving the scene of an accident.
May 6, 2010: Arrested and accused of raping a teenage girl at a hotel in Suffern, N.Y.
Sept. 2, 2016: Arrested for DUI in Florida.
People can't say in the same breath Odell is embarrassing the Giants and say his wasn't bad because he "changed the game" or "he won"
Is every Giant fan favorite/player hero who watched his career. None of us would choose OBJ over LT. He hurt himself off the field, his life, but never anything negative on the field. Just a fury, a real force, not a diva. Odell is great, not the greatest like LT. OBJ thinks he is, his warped ego wants, no demands to be the highest paid player in the league.
OBJ needs a QB to get him the ball, LT destroyed QBs!!!!
Ownership did NOT say they were looking to trade OBJ. This extreme comparsion is beyond silly taken too far by some Giants fans that are extreme hero-worshippers.
The Giants want OBJ for the right value but are open if a team wants to provide something over-the-top. This goes without saying for ANY player that has yet to lead to his team a title. But the hero-worshippers can't even stand a little logic if a team goes way overboard to overpay to get him.
And here is a news flash for some of you:" Society has changed. Time to stop living in the past.
Is that we really have no idea how good he really could've been because of the drug use and not working out properly. He transformed the game basically by running in off of a golf course and winging it.
Beckham doesn't deserve to mentioned in the same sentence with LT Â
and that's not really a knock on Beckham. Beckham has played 3 great HOF worthy almost full seasons. But he's never been 1st team All Pro. Brown & Jones are both as good if not better players. LT was All Pro his first 9 NFL seasons. He was the best defensive player in the NFL from his first game.
LT was Mike Tyson. He was Michael Jordan. He was Tiger Woods. He was on a completely different level from everyone else in his sport. But like Tyson & Jordan & Woods the things that fueled his greatness didn't work too well off the field in the rest of his life.
Different day and age.
And OBJ is nowhere even remotely near the caliber of player that LT was. LT simply put is the greatest defensive player to ever play the game of football.. period..
He held out and then signed with the NJ Generals. Then the G-Men paid him.
If I am not mistaken (on this, I could be) he would skip training camps
The Giants and the NFL looked the other way with him.
Was he a great FB player? no question, one of the best.
To say he was not a problem child would be fooling yourself.
Made the case yesterday on another thread...link below.
It Is An Insult To Compare LT to OBJ - ( New Window )
And beyond that, Beckham isn't in LT's universe as a player. That's not an insult to Beckham's ability; it's an acknowledgement of what LT was. There hasn't been a defensive player in his class to emerge since he retired 25 years ago. He was that good.
LT was a better player but also a bigger off field risk.
I would take a Herschel like haul for OBJ ... in a heartbeat.
Look, there's no comparison when it comes to impact -- LT is the man. But then again, we know the totality of LT's career, and the book on OBJ hasn't been written yet. LT also got to play with a few guys named Carson and Banks, under a coach named Belichick. If we can ally OBJ with similar talent, maybe things would look a lot rosier...
You simply can't overstate the impact LT had. He was a legend by his second year. Unblockable, usually the fastest cat on the field. Would regularly chase down RB's from behind.
Offenses were redesigned to deal with him.
However: It wasn't a secret that he was sort of a despicable human being. He joined the replacement players in the 1987 strike, which was a scummy thing to do, and it wasn't hard to figure out that he needed his paychecks for cocaine. Hardly anyone was surprised when he tested positive for cocaine later that year and was suspended.
He didn't generate the kind of fan animus that OBJ does because
1) LT was stoic on the field, where OBJ is kind of a drama queen;
2) There was no social media to expose his off-field stuff, which was far, far, FAR worse than OBJ's off-field behavior;
3) He was on good teams. It was happy times for Giants fans after a long drought.
LT was a different beast, and he had an actual problem when it came to coke. Being a star in NYC at that time, I cant say im surprised, and I also cant say that OBJ woulda been any different if he was in that time. Just like we dont know how LT would have acted had he been born in this day in age.
The real difference is the on-the-field antics. LT always went about his business and wasn't a "me" player, whereas OBJ seems to be that kinda guy and LOVES the spotlight. However, both play hard and are/were loved by teammates.
But LT literally changed football. He would stray on defense - against the design of the defense - but still make incredible plays. Then when the coaches chastised him he would tell them they need to change their system. And to Parcells credit, and then Belichick, they did.
LT made life so miserable for the Skins that he forced Gibbs to use an HBack or TE to help the out on LT (usually Jacoby). Which means the Skins had to essentially alter their entire offense. The rest of the league took notice and had to make similar adjustments...
I don't see OBJ changing the game like that.
When he came to practice at all.
I idolized LT as a kid, but the lengths to which people go to minimize his faults is hilarious. He was good enough to be great despite all of his personal flaws, yes, but that doesn't mean that the flaws weren't there.
LT was the man on the field. He wanted to win no matter what. My biggest issue is that OBJ makes things about him even at critical junctures of a game. That is an issue that will not get better with more $$$$.
Like someone mentioned before, it was much easier to overlook all of the bad things LT did off the field, because the team was winning Super Bowls. The Giants have made the PLAYOFFS once since OBJ has been here and were a 1 and done. That doesn't get you the same kind of clout that LT had when he was in his hayday. Fans overlook a TON of things when you are winning.
I idolized LT as a kid, but the lengths to which people go to minimize his faults is hilarious. He was good enough to be great despite all of his personal flaws, yes, but that doesn't mean that the flaws weren't there.
LT is a vile person.
As players there is no comparison. LT changed the game.
As for character issues, LT HAD and still has character issues. LT STILL struggles to be a good person, and fails a lot.
Let's be clear. OBJ does NOT have CHARACTER issues. He's not failing drug tests, breaking laws, cheating on his wife, rehabbing with golf or anything like that.
OBJ has MATURITY issues. He needs to grow up, but NO ONE in the Giants organization questions his CHARACTER. He is a decent person, and very good in the locker room.
They are both super competitive. People don't get that great without that.
If OBJ stays and plays 10 more years at a superstar level, he will probably surpass Eli as the 2nd greatest Giant of all time. LT changed the game and was the greatest Defensive player of all time. OBJ won't be that, but he could put up ridiculous numbers before he's done.
And for those not old enough to remember the LT years, his antics WERE front page news in the NY papers and the fans were WELL AWARE of them.
And there were probably a similar bunch of idiot fans calling for the Giants to unload him, but in the pre-internet, pre-social media world, those fans had NO VOICE. And there were NOWHERE NEAR as many outlets covering the NFL to fan the flames. You had local beat writers, national sports writers, the network pregame shows, and a bit if ESPN. That was it. No NFL network, or constant din of 24/7 sports coverage.
I don't say this to diminish what he did off the field. It was a different time -- beat writers weren't fishing for headlines and 24 hour news didn't exist. Legends and heroes were based largely on their on-the-field persona and performance.
This might be the dumbest thing I've read on BBI. And that's saying a lot.
Different day and age.
His suspensions and missed games should have also been clues.
NY Times story - ( New Window )
Everyone knew what he was doing on and off the field, although not to what extent.
Giants only goal at the time was to keep him in check so he showed up. How many times do you think he was bailed out quietly?
Reality - He would not be able to get on field today. He makes Alton Smith look like an Altar Boy.
OBJ is simply a nuisance, he hasn't broken any laws. he just acts like a spoiled teenager.
Hopefully Giants management can get across to him it's time to grow up.
WR's are replaceable, new faster model every year.
As players there is no comparison. LT changed the game.
He got arrested for having sex with minor. If we're trading Odell for his transgressions than they should take LT's name off the Ring of Honor for that one.
It's anything but apples and oranges. It's similar talents, generational talents. Both good locker room guys. One partied like an animal and played on a better team. The other one played in a different era with the 24 hour news cycle and social media and played on a terrible team.
It's apples and oranges in the sense that LT's transgressions were way worse than Odell's.
The point is LT didn't endure the fan scrutiny that Beckham endures because he played in a different era. Fans today know full well that LT was too wasted to practice sometimes. That his career possibly could have been longer if he took better care of himself. Fans don't seem to care, and that's fine, I don't either....LT doesn't have to explain his career to anyone. He was the GOAT. But he didn't do everything he could to be perfect.
Beckham farts on youtube and fans go ape shit. LT does coke on a saturday night until 5am and those same fans turn a blind eye. Why? Because you're all prisoners of the moment. I get it...so am I...but it's the truth. You hold players of today to a higher standard because you know too much.
They lost a playoff game in 94 by 41 points where LT had zero sacks.
Unfortunately - there are not Harrys or Georges on this team, and no coach who has been able to work with OBJ, as Parcells did with LT.
How about the one in 85 where they lost to Chicago and he had zero sacks. Or are you going to keep moving the goal posts?
LT was a better player but also a bigger off field risk.
He wasn't just a "better player". He was the greatest football player in history - on either side of the ball - and #2 isn't even close. And when he was playing football, there wasn't any doubt about his getting distracted or not "being on" - his motor was full-go non-stop 100% of the time.
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and Oranges.
It's apples and oranges in the sense that LT's transgressions were way worse than Odell's.
Ahh...got it.
The point is LT didn't endure the fan scrutiny that Beckham endures because he played in a different era. Fans today know full well that LT was too wasted to practice sometimes. That his career possibly could have been longer if he took better care of himself. Fans don't seem to care, and that's fine, I don't either....LT doesn't have to explain his career to anyone. He was the GOAT. But he didn't do everything he could to be perfect.
Beckham farts on youtube and fans go ape shit. LT does coke on a saturday night until 5am and those same fans turn a blind eye. Why? Because you're all prisoners of the moment. I get it...so am I...but it's the truth. You hold players of today to a higher standard because you know too much.
See, I think that's exactly the point. If LT got down on all fours in the endzone in the middle of a game and pretended to piss like a dog, then you know what? I wouldn't have been a big fan. Or if LT farted on YouTube, I wouldn't have been a fan. LT did a lot of bad shit because of his drug use - but when it came to football, he was a man, not a little boy.
He was the greatest game changer in any sport I ever watched ant I am 69 years old.
Beckham needs to grow up. I cannot argue that at all. But you don't give up on him. Not for the 23rd pick in the draft. Fuck no.
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always devolve into defending how awesome LT was as a player. That's not the point. LT was the best ever. I saw every single LT snap. That's not the point.
The point is LT didn't endure the fan scrutiny that Beckham endures because he played in a different era. Fans today know full well that LT was too wasted to practice sometimes. That his career possibly could have been longer if he took better care of himself. Fans don't seem to care, and that's fine, I don't either....LT doesn't have to explain his career to anyone. He was the GOAT. But he didn't do everything he could to be perfect.
Beckham farts on youtube and fans go ape shit. LT does coke on a saturday night until 5am and those same fans turn a blind eye. Why? Because you're all prisoners of the moment. I get it...so am I...but it's the truth. You hold players of today to a higher standard because you know too much.
See, I think that's exactly the point. If LT got down on all fours in the endzone in the middle of a game and pretended to piss like a dog, then you know what? I wouldn't have been a big fan. Or if LT farted on YouTube, I wouldn't have been a fan. LT did a lot of bad shit because of his drug use - but when it came to football, he was a man, not a little boy.
So if Odell acted like he did because he had a drug problem you'd be fine with it as long as they won?
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In comment 13889768 djm said:
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always devolve into defending how awesome LT was as a player. That's not the point. LT was the best ever. I saw every single LT snap. That's not the point.
The point is LT didn't endure the fan scrutiny that Beckham endures because he played in a different era. Fans today know full well that LT was too wasted to practice sometimes. That his career possibly could have been longer if he took better care of himself. Fans don't seem to care, and that's fine, I don't either....LT doesn't have to explain his career to anyone. He was the GOAT. But he didn't do everything he could to be perfect.
Beckham farts on youtube and fans go ape shit. LT does coke on a saturday night until 5am and those same fans turn a blind eye. Why? Because you're all prisoners of the moment. I get it...so am I...but it's the truth. You hold players of today to a higher standard because you know too much.
See, I think that's exactly the point. If LT got down on all fours in the endzone in the middle of a game and pretended to piss like a dog, then you know what? I wouldn't have been a big fan. Or if LT farted on YouTube, I wouldn't have been a fan. LT did a lot of bad shit because of his drug use - but when it came to football, he was a man, not a little boy.
So if Odell acted like he did because he had a drug problem you'd be fine with it as long as they won?
No. I would not be fine with Beckham or LT acting like Beckham.
Different day and age.
this
The only other player who comes close to LT, in my judgment, was Ronnie Lott. That guy had the goods. Was an all pro corner and safety. And could dominate a game from the back end. A tremendous hitter, ball hawk, leader, thinker. Walsh, Montana and Rice get the bulk of the credit for that team's incredible success. But Lott was the glue and made then one of the most underrated defenses of all time...
Do not go there with LT and cast in the same sentence.
LT exceled going across the field when the play was away from him.
It was never two pass rushers and one tackle and a back.
LT not only changed the game, but unheard of a TE had to be lined up in the back field to double up LT with a OT.
Teams added an extra TE just for playing against LT.
We are not saying two TE offense but an extra TE on the roster
LT caused the OC to revolve the offense around LT.
Though LT did the scummiest things, was secretly enabled by Parcells, Belicheck, Young and Wellington THERE WAS NEVER A MOMENT FROM MEDIA, FAN OR GIANT EMPLOYEE TO TRADE LT.
He held out one year had subsequent hammy issues and it effected his year.
imo we should do everything to keep OBJ....
BUT OBJ can never impact the game like LT.
Press coverage can probably stop OBJ yet even a TE and OT together would have a more challenging time shutting down LT.
The value of instilling fear in a QB on every dropback is priceless.
Off the field:
Feb. 14, 1986: Enters six-week drug-rehab program in Houston, stays one week.
March 20, 1986: Admits in public statement that he has received help for substance abuse.
Aug. 29, 1988: Given 30-day four-game suspension for second violation of NFL's drug-abuse policy for cocaine use.
March 1989: Fails breath test when police find him asleep behind the wheel of his Jeep beside the Garden State Parkway in N.J.
May 10, 1989: Acquitted in Saddlebrook, N.J., of drunken driving charges.
Sept. 20, 1995: Tries to choke a reporter after a Giants practice.
April 16, 1996: Driver's license suspended for outstanding parking tickets in Newark, N.J.
May 3, 1996: One of 15 arrested in Myrtle Beach, S.C., for allegedly trying to buy $100 worth of crack from undercover police while in town for a celebrity golf tourney. Charges dropped when LT agrees to 60 hours of public service.
June 4, 1997: Pleaded guilty to filing false 1990 income-tax return and failing to report $48,000 income from the now-defunct LT Sports Club in East Rutherford, N.J.
May 13, 1998: Arrested in his New Jersey home in a roundup of deadbeat parents. Released after about 10 hours in jail when a friend pays $6,000 in child support and for an outstanding traffic violation.
Oct. 19, 1998: Arrested again, this time in Florida, for allegedly buying $50 in crack from an undercover cop and for possessing drug paraphernalia.
Nov. 2009: Arrested in Miami for leaving the scene of an accident.
May 6, 2010: Arrested and accused of raping a teenage girl at a hotel in Suffern, N.Y.
Sept. 2, 2016: Arrested for DUI in Florida.
Off the field:
Feb. 14, 1986: Enters six-week drug-rehab program in Houston, stays one week.
March 20, 1986: Admits in public statement that he has received help for substance abuse.
Aug. 29, 1988: Given 30-day four-game suspension for second violation of NFL's drug-abuse policy for cocaine use.
March 1989: Fails breath test when police find him asleep behind the wheel of his Jeep beside the Garden State Parkway in N.J.
May 10, 1989: Acquitted in Saddlebrook, N.J., of drunken driving charges.
Sept. 20, 1995: Tries to choke a reporter after a Giants practice.
April 16, 1996: Driver's license suspended for outstanding parking tickets in Newark, N.J.
May 3, 1996: One of 15 arrested in Myrtle Beach, S.C., for allegedly trying to buy $100 worth of crack from undercover police while in town for a celebrity golf tourney. Charges dropped when LT agrees to 60 hours of public service.
June 4, 1997: Pleaded guilty to filing false 1990 income-tax return and failing to report $48,000 income from the now-defunct LT Sports Club in East Rutherford, N.J.
May 13, 1998: Arrested in his New Jersey home in a roundup of deadbeat parents. Released after about 10 hours in jail when a friend pays $6,000 in child support and for an outstanding traffic violation.
Oct. 19, 1998: Arrested again, this time in Florida, for allegedly buying $50 in crack from an undercover cop and for possessing drug paraphernalia.
Nov. 2009: Arrested in Miami for leaving the scene of an accident.
May 6, 2010: Arrested and accused of raping a teenage girl at a hotel in Suffern, N.Y.
Sept. 2, 2016: Arrested for DUI in Florida.
People can't say in the same breath Odell is embarrassing the Giants and say his wasn't bad because he "changed the game" or "he won"
OBJ needs a QB to get him the ball, LT destroyed QBs!!!!
The Giants want OBJ for the right value but are open if a team wants to provide something over-the-top. This goes without saying for ANY player that has yet to lead to his team a title. But the hero-worshippers can't even stand a little logic if a team goes way overboard to overpay to get him.
And here is a news flash for some of you:" Society has changed. Time to stop living in the past.
This. Carl Banks always says this. And that LT knew the defense better than anyone.
LT was Mike Tyson. He was Michael Jordan. He was Tiger Woods. He was on a completely different level from everyone else in his sport. But like Tyson & Jordan & Woods the things that fueled his greatness didn't work too well off the field in the rest of his life.