Beckham and contract demands

pretty much like TO without the part about turning on his coaches and teammates . It was once said of Jim Brown that you don’t blame a lion for being a lion . I would be wiped out if they traded him . This is such a dull, even morbid team. Truly- watching their games has become a drag . When he’s out there , you feel the juice that at any moment , on any play, he might burn one the distance .

This was another lame week ,initiated and punctuated by Mara, who should stop doing pressers . Instead , Gettleman could have been given the opportunity to properly manage what was going to be a difficult situation.situation, anyway. Now it’s brutal .

I doubt we have all of the information to make a truly informed decision. And there are many factors in play here (contract, injury, attitude, productivity, impact when on his game, where team truly feels we are in rebuild process, etc.). We just have to let it play out.

In comment 13892214 RetroJint said:

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pretty much like TO without the part about turning on his coaches and teammates . It was once said of Jim Brown that you don’t blame a lion for being a lion . I would be wiped out if they traded him . This is such a dull, even morbid team. Truly- watching their games has become a drag . When he’s out there , you feel the juice that at any moment , on any play, he might burn one the distance . This was another lame week ,initiated and punctuated by Mara, who should stop doing pressers . Instead , Gettleman could have been given the opportunity to properly manage what was going to be a difficult situation.situation, anyway. Now it’s brutal .

I don’t quite agree with your TO comparison, but generally agree with your post. This all started with Mara revealing his aggravation about things with OBJ.

Now, it’s entirely possible that was calculated to send a message, along with DG, Tisch and PS adding their voices to the noise.

I’d much prefer to see this business handled out of the media too...but I concede it’s possible they decided the usual stuff wasn’t working with OBJ and going the media route is a new tactic to get him to meet them halfway on some things (like showing up for some of the offseason work)

In comment 13892214 RetroJint said:

Quote:

pretty much like TO without the part about turning on his coaches and teammates . It was once said of Jim Brown that you don’t blame a lion for being a lion . I would be wiped out if they traded him . This is such a dull, even morbid team. Truly- watching their games has become a drag . When he’s out there , you feel the juice that at any moment , on any play, he might burn one the distance . This was another lame week ,initiated and punctuated by Mara, who should stop doing pressers . Instead , Gettleman could have been given the opportunity to properly manage what was going to be a difficult situation.situation, anyway. Now it’s brutal .

Beckham is an easy guy to hate among fans and the media. He's sort of the quintessential millenial, both in his appearance and attitude. The spoiled, self-entitled brat who cries and throws a tantrum when things don't go his way. He cries when he loses and punches walls, and throws fists at players who hurt his feelings. He's not so different from Grayson Allen in a lot of ways.

I agree the team is dull but thats because they don't have any other playmakers. There's no Michael Strahan or Tiki Barber or Jeremy Shockey on this team. I'd like to see Beckham stay, but if they trade him I'll be fine with it as long as they recognize the dearth of play-making talent on the roster and fix it.

That’s a load of BS, all of it.

In comment 13892230 Keith said:

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That’s a load of BS, all of it.

Awesome.

In comment 13892230 Keith said:

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That’s a load of BS, all of it.

BR is right. He does act like a spoiled brat on the field when he doesn’t get his way (kicking net, Minnesota game when Rhodes completely shut him down, punching the wall in GB, etc). Not to mention pretending to pee like a dog last year.

"The spoiled, self-entitled brat who cries and throws a tantrum when things don't go his way. He cries when he loses and punches walls, and throws fists at players who hurt his feelings."

$100 Million & LA. He fills a new stadium out there, he goes to an exciting team that can win right now. And, he's Hollywood, not north Jersey. And, don't think the NFL wouldn't like this, there's a huge market out there that they want to re-engage with the NFL. OBJ is just the guy to go it.

I think he wants out, doesn't want to be a part of the rebuild and wants the winning & bright lights that LA will give him.

Good luck #13.

him hating to lose is a negative. BFD, he punches a wall. He’s gotten kissed once on the sideline, BFD. Everyone needs to stop blaming everything on millennials, it’s stupid.

In comment 13892231 Brown Recluse said:

Quote:

In comment 13892230 Keith said: Quote: That’s a load of BS, all of it. Awesome.

Keith is correct, that was BS. Throws his fists at players? Who? You mean a certain cuntbag DB that cheap shotted him and that was in one game or when Ogletree hit him 5 yards out of bounds and that was Beckham's teammates that threw the punches.
The only antic that ever pissed me off was the dog peeing shit show.
I wouldn't trade Beckham for all the tea in China. His only equivalent in the NFL is AB, and I think Beckham is better. If they do trade him it had better be for 2 firsts plus. The Rams are out of the question - 23rd pick and a high 20's next year doesn't cut it. This is a guy that makes QBs look better. We all talk about QBs that make WRs look better, well OBJ makes QBs look better.

FYI, this isn't directed at just you BR, this is all the folks that think OBJ is unworthy of being a Giant.

In comment 13892237 Go Terps said:

Quote:

"The spoiled, self-entitled brat who cries and throws a tantrum when things don't go his way. He cries when he loses and punches walls, and throws fists at players who hurt his feelings."

While I hesitate to draw the LT comparison, because I don’t think it is valid, I do want to point out what Taylor did on the field when faced with adversity. When Jaworski dove at the back of his knees on the instruction of Buddy Ryan, Taylor responded by sacking him consecutive times and glaring at the Eagles bench. He didn’t respond by jumping around and throwing punches, or slamming his helmet into a kicking net, or running around crying and throwing tantrums on the sideline. He channeled his frustration into something constructive to help the team. I’m just making the on field comparison, not off field.

In comment 13892240 Keith said:

Quote:

him hating to lose is a negative. BFD, he punches a wall. He’s gotten kissed once on the sideline, BFD. Everyone needs to stop blaming everything on millennials, it’s stupid.

I'm not blaming anything on millennials. I'm saying he feeds into that stereotype.

Also, there is nothing wrong with hating to lose. Its the way you go about it thats important. I'm not sure whats so difficult to understand about that, or why people continue to make excuses for his actions. Its weird.

In comment 13892240 Keith said:

Quote:

him hating to lose is a negative. BFD, he punches a wall. He’s gotten kissed once on the sideline, BFD. Everyone needs to stop blaming everything on millennials, it’s stupid.

There is a current cultural aspect to this as he is the very definition of pampered athlete. That said, there were times in the 1980s where Harry Carson or Lawrence Taylor freaked out in the locker room about something that happened on the field. Back in the day, it was not unusual to see a guy like Kenny Hill throw punches at Redskins, or LT throw his helmet, etc. So some of this is being embellished.

In comment 13892226 Brown Recluse said:

Quote:

In comment 13892214 RetroJint said: Quote: pretty much like TO without the part about turning on his coaches and teammates . It was once said of Jim Brown that you don’t blame a lion for being a lion . I would be wiped out if they traded him . This is such a dull, even morbid team. Truly- watching their games has become a drag . When he’s out there , you feel the juice that at any moment , on any play, he might burn one the distance . This was another lame week ,initiated and punctuated by Mara, who should stop doing pressers . Instead , Gettleman could have been given the opportunity to properly manage what was going to be a difficult situation.situation, anyway. Now it’s brutal . Beckham is an easy guy to hate among fans and the media. He's sort of the quintessential millenial, both in his appearance and attitude. The spoiled, self-entitled brat who cries and throws a tantrum when things don't go his way. He cries when he loses and punches walls, and throws fists at players who hurt his feelings. He's not so different from Grayson Allen in a lot of ways. I agree the team is dull but thats because they don't have any other playmakers. There's no Michael Strahan or Tiki Barber or Jeremy Shockey on this team. I'd like to see Beckham stay, but if they trade him I'll be fine with it as long as they recognize the dearth of play-making talent on the roster and fix it.

OBJ compares to Grayson Allen....

Everything else is mostly overblown, IMO. I honestly don’t see him changing but he’s not nearly as bad as some make him out to be.

In comment 13892242 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 13892231 Brown Recluse said: Quote: In comment 13892230 Keith said: Quote: That’s a load of BS, all of it. Awesome. Keith is correct, that was BS. Throws his fists at players? Who? You mean a certain cuntbag DB that cheap shotted him and that was in one game or when Ogletree hit him 5 yards out of bounds and that was Beckham's teammates that threw the punches. The only antic that ever pissed me off was the dog peeing shit show. I wouldn't trade Beckham for all the tea in China. His only equivalent in the NFL is AB, and I think Beckham is better. If they do trade him it had better be for 2 firsts plus. The Rams are out of the question - 23rd pick and a high 20's next year doesn't cut it. This is a guy that makes QBs look better. We all talk about QBs that make WRs look better, well OBJ makes QBs look better. FYI, this isn't directed at just you BR, this is all the folks that think OBJ is unworthy of being a Giant.

While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, Beckham is not better than AB. At least not right now. Brown catches everything thrown his way and has had a longer track record of success. Beckham has been known for incredible catches, but also concentration drops.

The issue was posting it to Instagram and letting all the drama queens go nuts about it. Didn’t miss a practice, didn’t miss a meeting, went to FLA on an off day. Why is that an issue??

Eric, well said. LT was a great player, but not a good person off the field. He's lucky there was no social media back then. Strahan & Tiki were not boy scouts either.

OBJ is a good kid by all accounts. He's not been arrested. He's not doing drugs. He trains hard. He's the most dynamic playmaker we've had on our roster since LT.

I would hate to see him go. But, in the end, I think he goes to Hollywood for big bucks, a win now team, and to re-launch the NFL in LA (i.e fill a stadium, TV ratings, etc.)

In comment 13892247 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 13892240 Keith said: Quote: him hating to lose is a negative. BFD, he punches a wall. He’s gotten kissed once on the sideline, BFD. Everyone needs to stop blaming everything on millennials, it’s stupid. There is a current cultural aspect to this as he is the very definition of pampered athlete. That said, there were times in the 1980s where Harry Carson or Lawrence Taylor freaked out in the locker room about something that happened on the field. Back in the day, it was not unusual to see a guy like Kenny Hill throw punches at Redskins, or LT throw his helmet, etc. So some of this is being embellished.

other issue folks have to take into account is "does OBJ really want to be here"?

The Giants are coming off a 3-13 season with a 37-year old QB. Beckham is entering the prime of his career. It is not out of the realm of possibility that he sees the Rams as the far better option at this point in his career. I'm not saying that is the case, but it certainly is a possibility.

LT (really his ghost writer) wrote an autobiography after XXI about what a bad ass he was. Different times.

In comment 13892240 Keith said:

Quote:

him hating to lose is a negative. BFD, he punches a wall. He’s gotten kissed once on the sideline, BFD. Everyone needs to stop blaming everything on millennials, it’s stupid.

The old saying it is that you lost but how you handled it that matters. However, I do want someone who hates losing. BUT, hate it when you did your best. Don't act the fool after playing like shit. Don't act the idiot when provoked because you have laid the foundation for how all others will deal with you. Don't lose sight of the moment (score, time left, importance) just to self indulge.

The one thing I hate here is that too many excuse behaviors of OBJ that they would roast if it were a player on another team. Call it old man take if you want (I have been a Giants fan since birth and recently turned 48) and I have a hard time accepting the BS that comes with OBJ. He is a talent for sure. But, then again so was TO, MOSS, Ocho etc. and their acts wore out quickly with teams. You can't be above the team.

but to lose the dynamic gamebreaking talent on the football field is ultimately what it's about, would be sick to see him traded.

Despite the former, the latter is what every team desperately wants and it's so difficult to find.

In comment 13892268 Keith said:

Quote:

The issue was posting it to Instagram and letting all the drama queens go nuts about it. Didn’t miss a practice, didn’t miss a meeting, went to FLA on an off day. Why is that an issue??

The boat trip was a symptom of the disease. You can't understand it because you don't want to. Simple as that.

You'd rather look at everything he has done seperately because its much easier to rationalize them on an individual basis, instead of looking at the antics as a whole and seeing the bigger problem.

He's a young kid who's had some maturity issues, but never have I seen him give up on the team, make his teammates look bad or shown a lack of respect to the coaches and the organization. He's passionate about winning and is damn fun to watch. Some of you who are shitting on OBJ probably loved Shockey, who I despised and is still my least favorite Giant of all time. He had that me first attitude which I just don't see in OBJ. Just imagine what kind of production he'll have with Eli getting more than 2 seconds to make a throw.

How could they give him a LTD sight unseen. If he's 100%, he's worth the money. So, the issue is health and attitude, not money.

Bingo. I think he's gone and the Giants want to get as much as they can for him.

In comment 13892270 Eric from BBI said:

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other issue folks have to take into account is "does OBJ really want to be here"? The Giants are coming off a 3-13 season with a 37-year old QB. Beckham is entering the prime of his career. It is not out of the realm of possibility that he sees the Rams as the far better option at this point in his career. I'm not saying that is the case, but it certainly is a possibility.

But to make excuses for his behavior and pretend its not an issue is ridiculous.

In comment 13892280 jvm52106 said:

Quote:

The one thing I hate here is that too many excuse behaviors of OBJ that they would roast if it were a player on another team. Call it old man take if you want (I have been a Giants fan since birth and recently turned 48) and I have a hard time accepting the BS that comes with OBJ. He is a talent for sure. But, then again so was TO, MOSS, Ocho etc. and their acts wore out quickly with teams. You can't be above the team.

What about OBJ has offended you so much? I'm about the same age as you and honestly don't see anything that he's done that can't be easily corrected with some maturity. When has he placed himself about the team?

said about does OBJ want to be here. I truly think we need to look at the roster as a whole. We have changed some things but it is like siding over rotten wood. It looks good but it is very thin and one crack will expose the rot.

Can we afford to pay Beckham long term? Can we fill a roster with the few picks we have?

I looked at the possibility of an OBJ trade through mock draft eyes. The hard part is no matter how you do it, we are left thin at WR if we trade OBJ. To me the only way we can do a trade is picks (it won't be two 1's) and a WR back. Buffalo- Kelvin Benjamin, Rams- Kupp, 49ers- Goodwin, Chargers- Allen or M. Williams and Browns- Coleman etc.. We would need a WR to come back to us or a CB so that CB no longer is a draft need (at least not early).

those crucial passes in the playoff against Green Bay.

In comment 13892295 John in Loudoun said:

Quote:

In comment 13892280 jvm52106 said: Quote: The one thing I hate here is that too many excuse behaviors of OBJ that they would roast if it were a player on another team. Call it old man take if you want (I have been a Giants fan since birth and recently turned 48) and I have a hard time accepting the BS that comes with OBJ. He is a talent for sure. But, then again so was TO, MOSS, Ocho etc. and their acts wore out quickly with teams. You can't be above the team. What about OBJ has offended you so much? I'm about the same age as you and honestly don't see anything that he's done that can't be easily corrected with some maturity. When has he placed himself about the team?

Seriously? He lost his shit in the Carolina game and was a big part of the issues in the Rams where multiple players were ejected. He acted the fool against the Vikings. The pretending to piss on the field. Scoring a TD to just thrown his damn helmet off and cost us 15 yards (more than once).. The dumbbass net thing.. It is all self indulgence. You can be happy with that shit if you want.

he is our most dynamic player....only true difference maker in offense.

I assumed JPP trade was to deal with both Collins and OBJ.

Eric is right on....if he does not want to be here.....and his light frame and weak ankles....can make a longterm deal a disaster.

very challenging......it better be a one hell of a package

My 2 cents is that it appears that OBJ is interested in 2 things money and winning. NYG can pay him but The uncertainty about the team near term success makes NYG less desirable. I think he wants to go to a better team. Why would you want High paid unhappy player. I hope we trade him and somehow get an and Barkley.

In comment 13892300 jvm52106 said:

Quote:

Seriously? He lost his shit in the Carolina game and was a big part of the issues in the Rams where multiple players were ejected. He acted the fool against the Vikings. The pretending to piss on the field. Scoring a TD to just thrown his damn helmet off and cost us 15 yards (more than once).. The dumbbass net thing.. It is all self indulgence. You can be happy with that shit if you want.

All maturity issues. And I never said I'm happy about it. But to give up on a generational talent because of the reasons you mentioned...seriously? I really don't understand. And quite honestly if he was playing for the Cowboys, I would be coveting him. Kinda like how so many teams would love to have him on their roster.

All they have to do is load up their truck with draft picks and come get him. They will wait to see if price goes down.
Have to let it play out.

a big target on his back and he is not the biggest guy out there. Taunting these defenders after he beats them is not the way to go, but do not know if he can refrain from that stuff. His injury came on a deliberate attempt at his knees.

that our 25 year old superstar WR, the likes of which we have never seen on the Giants, was in a bed with a model and that makes people want to trade him, we've officially gone nuts.

you're smarter than that.

In comment 13892247 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 13892240 Keith said: Quote: him hating to lose is a negative. BFD, he punches a wall. He’s gotten kissed once on the sideline, BFD. Everyone needs to stop blaming everything on millennials, it’s stupid. There is a current cultural aspect to this as he is the very definition of pampered athlete. That said, there were times in the 1980s where Harry Carson or Lawrence Taylor freaked out in the locker room about something that happened on the field. Back in the day, it was not unusual to see a guy like Kenny Hill throw punches at Redskins, or LT throw his helmet, etc. So some of this is being embellished.

You mean like this:
LT - ( New Window )

In comment 13892342 JonC said:

Quote:

you're smarter than that.

I guess my point is - it seems like THIS was the thing that put people over the top. If I'm truly being honest with myself as a fan of the team, I'm not letting the media running wild with an old video of him in a bed cloud my judgment of him as a person or player. I worry about the on field/"in game" stuff with him. Keeping his damn composure out there. Stapleton made a good point yesterday, he said the Giants are letting the media control the narrative when it comes to the "distraction" that Odell causes. To me - it's only a distraction now because the media has run buck wild with this. We have every single NFL media outlet in the country doing mock traded with Beckham. There's blood in the water and these people won't stop until the season starts or the draft happens because then it won't be a story anymore.

I have never actually felt bad for Beckham because hey he's a millionaire living a dream life. But I actually do in this case. Won't be long until the fans turn on him unfortunately.

In comment 13892247 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Back in the day, it was not unusual to see a guy like Kenny Hill throw punches at Redskins

Do you guys remember Kenny Hill grabbing a WR's jersey and trying to steer him into a collision with the goalpost?

In comment 13892339 ryanmkeane said:

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that our 25 year old superstar WR, the likes of which we have never seen on the Giants, was in a bed with a model and that makes people want to trade him, we've officially gone nuts.

Yeah - him being in bed with a model is what makes people want to trade him.

**rolls eyes**

Looks like Odell Beckham is next in line to have amassed a cult following consisting of fans who offer up unmitigated support no matter what he does. First it was Eli Manning. Then it was Tom Coughlin. Now its Odell.

In comment 13892270 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

other issue folks have to take into account is "does OBJ really want to be here"?

This is my point when it comes to this stuff. "Does OBJ really want to be here?" Why are we all of a sudden singling Beckham out and asking him this question? You could ask that about any player. When Aaron Donald was holding out with the Rams - all we heard from the media was "man they should really pay him and pay him FAST if they want him out there..." But with Beckham, it's almost the opposite. First of all - Beckham hasn't held out yet. That report came from Rapoport for who all we know is just stirring up bullshit as always. The same guy who said the Dolphins wouldn't be trading or cutting Suh a week before they actually did because they "love this player." I think it's fucked up that we are all under this assumption now that Beckham somehow doesn't want to play for the Giants and wants to be on another team. Fuck that. He loves the Giants. We drafted him and he has blossomed here into an incredible player. What has he said exactly to make everyone think that he all of a sudden wants to be on the Rams?? Because Pat Leonard wrote a story about it?

did the video not cause all of this shit? I don't follow your point. This video instantly made people want to get rid of him.

In comment 13892270 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

other issue folks have to take into account is "does OBJ really want to be here"? The Giants are coming off a 3-13 season with a 37-year old QB. Beckham is entering the prime of his career. It is not out of the realm of possibility that he sees the Rams as the far better option at this point in his career. I'm not saying that is the case, but it certainly is a possibility.

Eric good post, this could very well be the case. He will fit right in out there. On and off the field .

In comment 13892359 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

did the video not cause all of this shit? I don't follow your point. This video instantly made people want to get rid of him.

The video is not what did Beckham in. As I said earlier, its a symptom of the disease. It represents a pattern of behavior that has been going on since he's been here. And people try really hard to be dismissive of everything and act like its not an issue, but it is. They are just too biased to see it. Just as those who are loyal Manning and Coughlin apologists - Beckham has his as well.

The video on its own isn't even a big deal. Its not why people want to get rid of him (I'm not one of them for the record)

I think the majority of fans don't want him to leave. If we took a poll, I'm sure the results would bear (bare?) that out.

Anyone who wants to get rid of him now, already wanted to before the video came out. They are just using that as ammunition to beat the drum even harder.

I fail to see how hanging out with someone eating pizza in a hotel room is a pattern of behavior. What behavior is OK with you? You want him to not have sex with women?

Yup... that '85 Giants-Eagles OT game where he threw his helmet immediately comes to mind. At the time, I was a teenager and I loved it.

In comment 13892350 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

In comment 13892342 JonC said: Quote: you're smarter than that. I guess my point is - it seems like THIS was the thing that put people over the top. If I'm truly being honest with myself as a fan of the team, I'm not letting the media running wild with an old video of him in a bed cloud my judgment of him as a person or player. I worry about the on field/"in game" stuff with him. Keeping his damn composure out there. Stapleton made a good point yesterday, he said the Giants are letting the media control the narrative when it comes to the "distraction" that Odell causes. To me - it's only a distraction now because the media has run buck wild with this. We have every single NFL media outlet in the country doing mock traded with Beckham. There's blood in the water and these people won't stop until the season starts or the draft happens because then it won't be a story anymore. I have never actually felt bad for Beckham because hey he's a millionaire living a dream life. But I actually do in this case. Won't be long until the fans turn on him unfortunately.

I think his immaturity turns off a lot of fans.

A lot of fans fail to realize how great an impact he has on a game, assuming his replacement will be of similar impact.

Some fans simply want more draft picks come April, again assuming quality when it's just quantity.

In comment 13892366 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

I fail to see how hanging out with someone eating pizza in a hotel room is a pattern of behavior. What behavior is OK with you? You want him to not have sex with women?

You are being really obtuse right now. I said the video on its own isn't a big deal.

not blindly defending Beckham. But I do feel bad for him that the entirety of NFL media and fans are on his ass for doing literally nothing wrong. When he becomes Robby Anderson, then I'll be ready to let go of him.

Kenny Hill was a dirty player. He came from the Raiders and brought that dirty style with him.

I remember him walking off the field after a special teams return and casually punching two Redskins as he was walking to the sidelines. (He later got thrown out of the game for doing something else not caught on camera...LT ran over and sent some Redskin flying who was fighting with Hill).

In comment 13892366 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

I fail to see how hanging out with someone eating pizza in a hotel room is a pattern of behavior. What behavior is OK with you? You want him to not have sex with women?

I dont want him traded but not mentioning the drugs in the video is leaving out a major detail

not trying to be obtuse. But you said this is a "pattern of behavior"....he was in a hotel room with a model. People are entitled to their opinion but I fail to see how that is a pattern of anything.

Rob Gronkowski parties a lot harder than Beckham does, and fans eat that shit up.

In comment 13892369 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 13892350 ryanmkeane said: Quote: In comment 13892342 JonC said: Quote: you're smarter than that. I guess my point is - it seems like THIS was the thing that put people over the top. If I'm truly being honest with myself as a fan of the team, I'm not letting the media running wild with an old video of him in a bed cloud my judgment of him as a person or player. I worry about the on field/"in game" stuff with him. Keeping his damn composure out there. Stapleton made a good point yesterday, he said the Giants are letting the media control the narrative when it comes to the "distraction" that Odell causes. To me - it's only a distraction now because the media has run buck wild with this. We have every single NFL media outlet in the country doing mock traded with Beckham. There's blood in the water and these people won't stop until the season starts or the draft happens because then it won't be a story anymore. I have never actually felt bad for Beckham because hey he's a millionaire living a dream life. But I actually do in this case. Won't be long until the fans turn on him unfortunately. I think his immaturity turns off a lot of fans. A lot of fans fail to realize how great an impact he has on a game, assuming his replacement will be of similar impact. Some fans simply want more draft picks come April, again assuming quality when it's just quantity.

I agree. I think it also turns off a lot of people - fans, players, former players, the media. I know it turns me off - but i still want him here.

And I think the fact that fans haven't seen Beckham on the field in a while has made them forget how talented he is.

Re: Rams.

We simply don't know. And we probably won't ever know unless he is traded there and talks about it at his intro press conference.

All this could be media-driven, agent-driven, other-team driven (basically someone else's agenda).... or it could be real.

Leonard started it, but the shit got serious when Rapaport confirmed it.

Those who say it shouldn't be the topic of conversation are being silly. I understand some people don't want to hear it, but then take a break from football for a while. Because it's not just on BBI.

Jon in that this pretty much boils down to fans not liking him because of his immaturity. I just feel like he has a much bigger target on his back than anyone else in the league. Hell - Zeke Elliott basically became a sympathetic figure after being suspended for domestic violence. Imagine that.

How is it a symptom of the problem. Help me see what you see. It's a day off, hes young and rich and he flew to florida to get away with his buddies before going back to practice. He didn't miss anything football related. Please explain to me how it's a symptom of the bigger problem.

My opinion....its all optics, which is a nice way of saying, BS news. It's the media getting the sheep all worked up over nothing and then the sheep getting annoyed that it's major news. That's all it is. It's only a distraction when people like you freak out about something harmless and make it a story.

In comment 13892372 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Kenny Hill was a dirty player. He came from the Raiders and brought that dirty style with him.

Certainly did. I thought the goalpost thing took it to the next level.

In comment 13892239 Rong5611 said:

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$100 Million & LA. He fills a new stadium out there, he goes to an exciting team that can win right now. And, he's Hollywood, not north Jersey. And, don't think the NFL wouldn't like this, there's a huge market out there that they want to re-engage with the NFL. OBJ is just the guy to go it. I think he wants out, doesn't want to be a part of the rebuild and wants the winning & bright lights that LA will give him. Good luck #13.

I think this is spot on and is what most of the bloggers on this site have failed to see - it is not the Giants trying to get rid of Odell, it is Odell's camp floating rumors to get him out of New York. The Giants have nothing to gain by floating anything to the press during a negotiation - particularly when higher trade requirements only hurt their own negotiating position. Mara wants to keep Odell but at an acceptable price - I am guessing they will not exceed Antonio Brown's contract which is well below the quarterback levels Odell is requiring to step back on the field. I am also guessing that the Giants have already turned down deals for less than two number ones which is why Odell's camp is essentially begging through the press for teams to raise the ante so he can get his ransom. Odell is a selfish prima donna who is in this only for himself - I actually feel bad for the fans on this site who are passionately defending him when it is he himself who wants out...

If he had been an Eagle rather than a Giant we would have despised him.

It's kind of funny that he was such a vicious, dirty player when he was one of the few Yalies in the NFL.

thing is absolutely clear beyond a shadow of a doubt... the NYDN has had it out for Beckham for the last couple of years. They have clearly targeted him as public enemy #1.

In comment 13892383 Keith said:

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How is it a symptom of the problem. Help me see what you see. It's a day off, hes young and rich and he flew to florida to get away with his buddies before going back to practice. He didn't miss anything football related. Please explain to me how it's a symptom of the bigger problem. My opinion....its all optics, which is a nice way of saying, BS news. It's the media getting the sheep all worked up over nothing and then the sheep getting annoyed that it's major news. That's all it is. It's only a distraction when people like you freak out about something harmless and make it a story.

I agree with this, and this was Art's point from yesterday. The Giants have basically let the media control the narrative when it comes to this. And anything that Gettleman or Mara says, the media picks it apart and turns it into "well they didn't say they WOULDN'T trade him..." and then it blows up. You could say that about any player.

In comment 13892388 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

thing is absolutely clear beyond a shadow of a doubt... the NYDN has had it out for Beckham for the last couple of years. They have clearly targeted him as public enemy #1.

Yes, absolutely. I know I sound like a Beckham homer, and I'm really doing my best not to be. But there are certain aspects about this that are just downright sleazy media bullshit, like the NYDN.

is the penalties on the field and the times he loses control of his emotions during a game. Everything else is drama fodder, all of it. Its fucking amazing how people will always assume the worst with this guy. He didn't fail a drug test, he didn't have a line of coke in front of him, but lets assume he's a drug addict. Someone makes a comment on twitter about how OBJ shouldn't play in the preseason, he says 0 and the story is how OBJ claims that he wont play one snap with the giants before the season. OBJ goes on a day trip with his friends 6 days before a playoff game on an off day and he doesn't care about winning. OBJ gets pissed when we lose and hits the wall and he's a spoiled brat millenial. Maybe the problem isn't OBJ, it's with the drama queen fans.

"Beckham wants out" ....I understand that's an opinion but there is literally zero evidence to support that. You can't just throw shit out there.

The Giants should ban Pat Leonard's lying phony ass from the Meadowlands.

sadly, fans these days don't really care about how Beckham impacts the game. They only see a guy who likes to make appearances at clubs and be the face of a shampoo line.

He is young, but he is maturing.

I will take someone like him that cares about winning ANY day of the week and I would hate to see him go.

Football is a game of emotion and if you don't have any you will not succeed.

Bell has gotten suspended twice for weed and DUI...yet i don't see steeler fans or the media piling on him. Imagine if Beckham had done that?

A lot of that is his own doing. He has a major social media following and he transcends football. So clearly he's exactly what the media wants and needs. Any story about OBJ is going to blow up.

Look no further than Pat Leonard. The guy has written about nothing else but negative Odell controversy because he knows he will get people to click and read. Then it becomes a story and everyone starts to run with it. Then OBJ is the distraction because everyone else makes it some huge story. It's pathetic. Prime example..."0". The dude literally said "0" and it blew up. Could have been a light hearted joke, you know, coming off a broken ankle and missing a whole season when he got hurt in preseason. Nope, OBJ is a bad teammate that doesn't want to practice.

In comment 13892407 jsuds said:

Quote:

He is young, but he is maturing. I will take someone like him that cares about winning ANY day of the week and I would hate to see him go. Football is a game of emotion and if you don't have any you will not succeed.

I think much of this OBJ stuff is overblown, but that said, I see no evidence that he is "maturing".

is not a problem IF the players show up and play well in the playoff game that followed. But, it does cause more mature people to question their focus and priorities, which is NORMAL. For some people, it won't matter but one size doesn't fit all. If you have to explain it to someone, it might be principle that isn't important to them or they're unwilling to see it.

They were invisible including OB vs GB, so heat and criticism will rightfully arrive.

Even Cruz foresaw the aftermath, as a more mature veteran should.

.

it wasn't an issue until they all decided to have stone hands during the game

amazing to me that Victor Cruz gets a pass on the boat. Cruz was the veteran. The guy who has been to a Super Bowl. (Again, I'm not one of those guys who thinks going on a boat trip caused the the playoff loss, but if we're going to point fingers...)

In comment 13892428 JonC said:

Quote:

is not a problem IF the players show up and play well in the playoff game that followed. But, it does cause more mature people to question their focus and priorities, which is NORMAL. For some people, it won't matter but one size doesn't fit all. If you have to explain it to someone, it might be principle that isn't important to them or they're unwilling to see it. They were invisible including OB vs GB, so heat and criticism will rightfully arrive. Even Cruz foresaw the aftermath, as a more mature veteran should.

This is where I disagree. The issue I had with that playoff game was coming out before the game half naked to make a point. When you are freezing cold, you lose control of your extremities, starting with your hands. They come out without clothes on to prove that the cold won't effect them. That's why they had bad games. Not because of a vacation 6 days earlier. All that did was allow people like Leonard to run a story that will get all the fans worked up. That's it. The vets probably went to him and said...OBJ, do your thing, but some advice...don't document everything you are doing.

If I were the leadership, I'd be up their asses to focus on making good decisions related to their job/performance.

that it was a learning experience for OBJ. He's a young kid and that was his first playoff game. Do your thing, just burn the paper trail so the Real Housewives fans don't make a stink over it.

I would bet a ton of guys go on quick getaways when they have an off day, even before a playoff game. I know I would if I was young, rich and single. Nothing wrong with it. I remember the great Romo and Witten did(also felt heat because of a picture). What is wrong with it? Do you expect them to be in their rooms every day that whole week watching film?

and given the money they're paid to play a game for a living, it's a small price to pay to learn how to be a professional.

and i want him to be a Giant for life. he is a unicorn type of talent and we haven't had a game changing player like him since LT. he plays hard and does things that can't be stopped. i would hate to see him in another uniform. and i don't begrudge him for trying to maximize his earnings given that nfl careers can end in a second and as we see with sad stories like with junior seau, dave duerson, corey widmer etc there is significant costs of the violence of the sport.

that being said, he has not used the best judgment in his free time even if he wasn't breaking any laws or team rules. he is certainly allowed to party and do what he wants in his free time, but it's the details (when he's partied i.e. right before a playoff game, who he'a associated with (manziel) the substances that appeared in the video (appears to be coke) where as a role model and member of the Giants organization, that are irking upper management.

if instagram was around in LT's time, he would never have lasted as long as he did in blue. god only knows what kind of pictures and messages would have been posted during the 80s :)

The "optics" allowed the media to run with this story to get people all worked up. Optics don't win or lose games, they just create narratives for people to discuss.

There's optics that media runs with, and some of is valid in the perspective of preferring the player demonstrate some level of maturity and being a pro.

I think you're choosing to push back on authority instead.

that's a stretch. Quick question for you...do you think other players go away on off days before big games? I'd guess a large portion do. However, a lot of them dont take instragram pictures with Lil Wayne and Justin Bieber.

In comment 13892483 Keith said:

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that's a stretch. Quick question for you...do you think other players go away on off days before big games? I'd guess a large portion do. However, a lot of them dont take instragram pictures with Lil Wayne and Justin Bieber.

it's not about going away before a playoff game. it's about partying and being around what appeared to be a joint. no one would care if he went with his girlfriend to a spa for some quiet R&R time, get a massage, refresh before an intense week of practice and a playoff game.

has ever won a super bowl!

Better to spread the dollars around to a bunch of good players, as apposed to most the the dollars to one great player.

Just look at Seattle and Baltimore after the QB's got their huge contracts.

Better to take the Patriots model. Trade players before big pay days. Even Brady is cap friendly.

Plus..... OBJ is and always be a large headache for any club he plays for, much like TO was.

is that we all may be over-valuing Odell's worth in terms of draft pick compensation. A lot of posters (including myself) felt the two first-round draft picks compensation might not be sufficient depending on how low the picks were (or potentially were with a good team).

But I keep reading/hearing reaction from national pundits who say that is "a lot" to give up for Beckham. Are we over-valuing him when you consider his potential cap hit, ankle injury, off-the-field drama? I don't know.

I am simply raising the issue that our belief in what his value is seems to differ from national pundits.

In comment 13892498 chitt17 said:

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has ever won a super bowl! Better to spread the dollars around to a bunch of good players, as apposed to most the the dollars to one great player. Just look at Seattle and Baltimore after the QB's got their huge contracts. Better to take the Patriots model. Trade players before big pay days. Even Brady is cap friendly. Plus..... OBJ is and always be a large headache for any club he plays for, much like TO was.

lol on a few levels. First off, can you provide your research that shows how no team has won a SB with "x" amount of dollars tied to one player, oh and lol at the fact that we don't even know what the contract is yet.

Last lol, lets just find the best QB and coach of all time then we can follow the Pats model.

In comment 13892494 Les in TO said:

Quote:

In comment 13892483 Keith said: Quote: that's a stretch. Quick question for you...do you think other players go away on off days before big games? I'd guess a large portion do. However, a lot of them dont take instragram pictures with Lil Wayne and Justin Bieber. it's not about going away before a playoff game. it's about partying and being around what appeared to be a joint. no one would care if he went with his girlfriend to a spa for some quiet R&R time, get a massage, refresh before an intense week of practice and a playoff game.

no, thats your issue with it. The major issue was gonig away on a monday before the playoff game.

In comment 13892502 Eric from BBI said:

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is that we all may be over-valuing Odell's worth in terms of draft pick compensation. A lot of posters (including myself) felt the two first-round draft picks compensation might not be sufficient depending on how low the picks were (or potentially were with a good team). But I keep reading/hearing reaction from national pundits who say that is "a lot" to give up for Beckham. Are we over-valuing him when you consider his potential cap hit, ankle injury, off-the-field drama? I don't know. I am simply raising the issue that our belief in what his value is seems to differ from national pundits.

That's not what I am hearing. I was watching NFL network this AM, good morning football. First off, they all agreed that the Giants are insane for even considering it. Then they went through a few scenarios and made offers for the giants to consider. First guy said Clevelands #4 overall and 1st next year and they agreed that it wasn't enough. Next guy said Aaron Donald and they agreed that it wasn't enough.

Thanks. I haven't heard anything like that yet.

In comment 13892394 ryanmkeane said:

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"Beckham wants out" ....I understand that's an opinion but there is literally zero evidence to support that. You can't just throw shit out there.

Not saying Beckham wants out - just saying he wants out if he doesn't get his pay requirements... A protracted hold out with franchise tagging just makes no sense for anyone involved and I firmly believe Mara and Gettleman will absolutely not pay him a nickel more than the Steelers pay Antonio Brown. The Rams on the other hand would be crazy not to pay him what he wants AND give the Giants at least two number one picks given what he will mean to the performance and economics of their franchise. And of course the NFL would love Beckham in LA given what he would mean to the brand in that part of the country given the recent and coming expansions. So if you look at each side here, it is actually getting harder to believe that this won't happen... but will probably need to be two number ones and an offensive starter like Andrew Whitworth or Robert Woods or both!

My issue is they sucked in a big game, period. Because of that, I'm going to call into question his focus and preparation.

In comment 13892537 JonC said:

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My issue is they sucked in a big game, period. Because of that, I'm going to call into question his focus and preparation.

Jon, again..I agree, that's my issue as well. Personally, I don't blame the boat trip on a monday for a game on saturday. I do however blame his pre-game antics. Learning experience....I hope.

.

Everything else is noise. The ONLY reason he gets traded regardless of what anyone says, is if the Giants don't want to pay him what he wants and he says he will hold out until he gets it. The Giants are prepared to offer him more than any receiver has ever been paid or guaranteed, believe that. If he sticks to wanting Garrapolo money, he will get traded and no one will be satisfied with how much we get back in trade because the more he demands in money, the less he is worth in a trade in a salary cap league. That's the fact Jack.

In comment 13892549 Thegratefulhead said:

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Everything else is noise. The ONLY reason he gets traded regardless of what anyone says, is if the Giants don't want to pay him what he wants and he says he will hold out until he gets it. The Giants are prepared to offer him more than any receiver has ever been paid or guaranteed, believe that. If he sticks to wanting Garrapolo money, he will get traded and no one will be satisfied with how much we get back in trade because the more he demands in money, the less he is worth in a trade in a salary cap league. That's the fact Jack.

Yeah, but according to hitdog(if I'm interpreting it correctly), it's not about the money. The Giants are willing to pay OBJ.

Bottom line is we have begun negotiations and both sides are working their leverage. There is no doubt that the Giants organization wants Beckham catching td's for many years to come and Beckham wants a very healthy contract. If Beckham has interest in being in NY then he will negotiate and if he wants the bright lights of LA he will hold his price and force the Giants hand. The media drama is fueled by both sides. We see this every year but not with our team.

In comment 13892525 Eric from BBI said:

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Thanks. I haven't heard anything like that yet.

Keith had a better morning than me. NFL station on Sirius, The Opening Drive, McCaffrey and Marvez take was that NYG were nuts to think that they could get two #1s when 49ers got Garrapolo for one #2. Said that a #2 for OB was much more realistic because the QB was more valuable. I see holes in that argument, but whatever.

Jimmy Garoppolo had thrown about 90 NFL passes before that trade. In what universe is that the equivalent of a three-time Pro Bowl WR, even allowing for the outsized importance of the QB position?

In comment 13892657 Greg from LI said:

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Jimmy Garoppolo had thrown about 90 NFL passes before that trade. In what universe is that the equivalent of a three-time Pro Bowl WR, even allowing for the outsized importance of the QB position?

Lots of holes in their position. Another analogy, a guy buys a yard sale painting for $10; turns out it’s a missing Picasso. Doesn’t mean that $10 is the right price for a Picasso.

In comment 13892558 Keith said:

Quote:

In comment 13892549 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: Everything else is noise. The ONLY reason he gets traded regardless of what anyone says, is if the Giants don't want to pay him what he wants and he says he will hold out until he gets it. The Giants are prepared to offer him more than any receiver has ever been paid or guaranteed, believe that. If he sticks to wanting Garrapolo money, he will get traded and no one will be satisfied with how much we get back in trade because the more he demands in money, the less he is worth in a trade in a salary cap league. That's the fact Jack. Yeah, but according to hitdog(if I'm interpreting it correctly), it's not about the money. The Giants are willing to pay OBJ.

Not entirely. They aren’t willing to pay OBJ what he’s asking for right now.

They want him here and are trying to get him to smarten up on and off the field before they really commit.

In comment 13892513 Keith said:

Quote:

In comment 13892502 Eric from BBI said: Quote: is that we all may be over-valuing Odell's worth in terms of draft pick compensation. A lot of posters (including myself) felt the two first-round draft picks compensation might not be sufficient depending on how low the picks were (or potentially were with a good team). But I keep reading/hearing reaction from national pundits who say that is "a lot" to give up for Beckham. Are we over-valuing him when you consider his potential cap hit, ankle injury, off-the-field drama? I don't know. I am simply raising the issue that our belief in what his value is seems to differ from national pundits. That's not what I am hearing. I was watching NFL network this AM, good morning football. First off, they all agreed that the Giants are insane for even considering it. Then they went through a few scenarios and made offers for the giants to consider. First guy said Clevelands #4 overall and 1st next year and they agreed that it wasn't enough. Next guy said Aaron Donald and they agreed that it wasn't enough.

Browns #4 this year and next years #1 sounds good to me if he going yo ruin our cap and hold out. That could mean Barkley and Nelson this year. And second #1 next year. instead of cap hell

RE: RE: It’s debatable that
Racer : 9:01 am : link : reply
In comment 13892247 Eric from BBI said:
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Back in the day, it was not unusual to see a guy like Kenny Hill throw punches at Redskins


Do you guys remember Kenny Hill grabbing a WR's jersey and trying to steer him into a collision with the goalpost?

Joe Morris Kenny Hill William Roberts Herb Welch Pepper Johnson Odessa Turner , they played what was the the
Triple Cities Jets one of the Jets got a bit too physical
with Kenny Hill and he got pissed I though he was gonna
punch him out but he grabbed his jersey and got in the kids face who was scared shitless

In comment 13892284 Brown Recluse said:

Quote:

In comment 13892268 Keith said: Quote: The issue was posting it to Instagram and letting all the drama queens go nuts about it. Didn’t miss a practice, didn’t miss a meeting, went to FLA on an off day. Why is that an issue?? The boat trip was a symptom of the disease. You can't understand it because you don't want to. Simple as that. You'd rather look at everything he has done seperately because its much easier to rationalize them on an individual basis, instead of looking at the antics as a whole and seeing the bigger problem.

Here's my question about the boat trip - did he go alone?

Where's the animosity for Shepard? Where was the animosity for Cruz (who should have been the adult in the room)?

They deserve the same level of shit. Cruz more than Beckham.

I agree with the poster who said that OBJ just might go to the Rams because he is the missing piece of their puzzle and the Rams can afford the terms of a deal like this...

In comment 13892692 Sammo85 said:

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Not entirely. They aren’t willing to pay OBJ what he’s asking for right now. They want him here and are trying to get him to smarten up on and off the field before they really commit.

They aren't wrong there, but anyone with a brain realizes it's not in his best interest to risk an injury stepping back on the field until he gets a new deal. Both sides need to be willing to meet in the middle. The Giants need to relax off the pure hardball stance and Odell has to recognize he's not going to get the same guaranteed money sight unseen/post-video. I wonder if both sides would agree to a JPP-type contract... nice signing bonus, good AAV, lower guaranteed money, nothing locked in beyond 2019.

In comment 13892502 Eric from BBI said:

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is that we all may be over-valuing Odell's worth in terms of draft pick compensation. A lot of posters (including myself) felt the two first-round draft picks compensation might not be sufficient depending on how low the picks were (or potentially were with a good team). But I keep reading/hearing reaction from national pundits who say that is "a lot" to give up for Beckham. Are we over-valuing him when you consider his potential cap hit, ankle injury, off-the-field drama? I don't know. I am simply raising the issue that our belief in what his value is seems to differ from national pundits.

From what I've read and heard, it's run the gamut - just preposterous to trade him to get what you can because OBJ could make this a bit bloody...

I'm less about the pick(s) and more interested in getting a proven player back. I think a first round pick should be in the mix - and then that's all about the skill of the GM & scouts hitting on that opportunity - but give me a player who has demonstrated real production. Because we need proven commodities who can actually play.

For example, if there was an opportunity with the Rams, I'd take their first rounder plus Rodger Safford, their LG who is very solid. That's would certainly help fill a void. And I'd ask for Robert Woods to get some WR production back. So that would be two player who can play plus a pick. Asking for Woods might be too aggressive - that's two starters - but we're talking about a transcendent type talent...

In comment 13892692 Sammo85 said:

Quote:

In comment 13892558 Keith said: Quote: In comment 13892549 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: Everything else is noise. The ONLY reason he gets traded regardless of what anyone says, is if the Giants don't want to pay him what he wants and he says he will hold out until he gets it. The Giants are prepared to offer him more than any receiver has ever been paid or guaranteed, believe that. If he sticks to wanting Garrapolo money, he will get traded and no one will be satisfied with how much we get back in trade because the more he demands in money, the less he is worth in a trade in a salary cap league. That's the fact Jack. Yeah, but according to hitdog(if I'm interpreting it correctly), it's not about the money. The Giants are willing to pay OBJ. Not entirely. They aren’t willing to pay OBJ what he’s asking for right now. They want him here and are trying to get him to smarten up on and off the field before they really commit.

OBJ is shooting for moon and he should. It started last year saying he should be the NFLs highest paid player. The Giants are not paying that, If he holds out for anything more than a reasonable increase over Antonio Brown's contract, he will get traded. My guess is that offer is on the table. The Giant's don't want to deal with a hold out situation, would suck for new coach trying to set an entire new offense. I suspect they want this done before the draft. I think it is better than 50/50 he gets traded. I think he is going after a Jimmy G deal and guarantee and that it is what going to keep the compensation in a trade lower than what you would expect for a HoF caliber receiver.

They have to make the deal if possible. DG will make them pay as he should. Thier first this year and their first next year plus another pick or player. MO

In comment 13893383 Go Terps said:

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They deserve the same level of shit. Cruz more than Beckham.

I agree, but they don't get the same level of shit at all - not even close, and never have since it happened. Most people seem to assign it to Beckham and Beckham alone.

In comment 13893467 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 13892502 Eric from BBI said: Quote: is that we all may be over-valuing Odell's worth in terms of draft pick compensation. A lot of posters (including myself) felt the two first-round draft picks compensation might not be sufficient depending on how low the picks were (or potentially were with a good team). But I keep reading/hearing reaction from national pundits who say that is "a lot" to give up for Beckham. Are we over-valuing him when you consider his potential cap hit, ankle injury, off-the-field drama? I don't know. I am simply raising the issue that our belief in what his value is seems to differ from national pundits. From what I've read and heard, it's run the gamut - just preposterous to trade him to get what you can because OBJ could make this a bit bloody... I'm less about the pick(s) and more interested in getting a proven player back. I think a first round pick should be in the mix - and then that's all about the skill of the GM & scouts hitting on that opportunity - but give me a player who has demonstrated real production. Because we need proven commodities who can actually play. For example, if there was an opportunity with the Rams, I'd take their first rounder plus Rodger Safford, their LG who is very solid. That's would certainly help fill a void. And I'd ask for Robert Woods to get some WR production back. So that would be two player who can play plus a pick. Asking for Woods might be too aggressive - that's two starters - but we're talking about a transcendent type talent...

Part of the reason why this level of trade is so rare and difficult is how to quantify what any kind of equivalent value is.

Well there's a good explanation for that: Beckham is the guy we are talking about making the face of the franchise.

This team is, and has been, dogshit for years. Part of the reason for that has been the locker room. Beckham has had his part to play in that, but he has not been the sole problem by a long shot. The culture around the team has been a disaster. It's why the team quit like dogs last year, and it's why JPP got shipped out.

I'm on record as saying that if a story had come out in February that Gettleman intended to enter 2018 with a completely new 53 man roster I'd have been happy with it. This is a team with losing DNA. Beckham isn't all of that, but he's had his part to play.

OBJ is an self centered "attention whore "who will not change, as talented as he is, for many years. He is also a hated target by many defensive players in the league, who plays a position where he is very vulnerable to serious injury. You cannot tie up that kind of cap money in a player like that. Get best value and move on. WE get Barkley and we do not lose any ground here talent wise, MO

In comment 13892230 Keith said:

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That’s a load of BS, all of it.

thats funny because I agree with everything he said....

In comment 13902645 Jersey55 said:

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In comment 13892230 Keith said: Quote: That’s a load of BS, all of it. thats funny because I agree with everything he said....

We really needed this thread dug up after a week. Great job. Huzzah.