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Dan Pizzuta: What we can expect from Eli Manning at 37

Thegratefulhead : 4/9/2018 12:29 pm
Nice analysis on passes from a clean pocket.
What we can expect from Eli - ( New Window )
This  
Thegratefulhead : 4/9/2018 12:40 pm : link
"An offense can function on manufactured separation and quick throws, but itís unlikely to ever be great. If Manning can get back the deep ball on a slightly more consistent basis, thereís certainly a chance those plays can launch Manning and the passing offense back up the top half of the league. However, the trend over the past few years does not suggest thatís a likely result. Without that added threat, Manning realistically offers little more than replacement-level value with his greatest strength on throws many young quarterbacks could come in and execute."
Are we accounting  
lester : 4/9/2018 12:45 pm : link
for an offense that didn't fit his skill and having an OL who allowed him zero time to throw?
RE: Are we accounting  
Thegratefulhead : 4/9/2018 12:47 pm : link
In comment 13906340 lester said:
Quote:
for an offense that didn't fit his skill and having an OL who allowed him zero time to throw?
The is a substantial portion of the analysis(you would have to read it) That uses throws form a CLEAN pocket only. I thought this was a very detailed and completely analysis. The best I have read yet, I thought it was very fair.
If all it was was coming and and making those throws  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2018 12:48 pm : link
then Eli would be gone by now. He played in a dogshit offense with a decimated WR corps, a bad oline and running game, and a rookie TE.
The rare clean pocket  
Tim in VA : 4/9/2018 1:25 pm : link
Doesn't mean there was confidence in a clean pocket. If we could have some consistency in our pass protection. There's just no evaluating we can do until we plug those holes
Eli +WCO = WTF?  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/9/2018 1:41 pm : link
Some of us said it at the time when they scapegoated Killdrive. Classy flagship franchise my ass, your average Madden player was more knowledgeable than the FO.
RE: The rare clean pocket  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/9/2018 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13906432 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
Doesn't mean there was confidence in a clean pocket. If we could have some consistency in our pass protection. There's just no evaluating we can do until we plug those holes

The idea of a clean pocket is a fairy tale anyway. OL play sucks, generally speaking, league-wide. Any great QB has to be confident in spite of that.
I would expect some good portions of games, but more average  
Jimmy Googs : 4/9/2018 1:53 pm : link
and bad portions though.

I would expect more inconsistent levels of play and poor production in 4qtrs of games.

I would expect a continued level of decline...
I'd like to see Eli go to a team with a line that can protect him  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 4/9/2018 2:05 pm : link
and a chance to go somewhere. Then I'd have two teams to root for next season.

No one realistically thinks that Eli can turn it around here. Sure they got a left tackle, but who's playing the other O-Line positions?

Eli will have two seconds to throw and will try to force it into a triple covered Beckham. We will have what has become a typical number of sack/fumbles and picks.
Iím expecting more middle of pack QB play  
The_Boss : 4/9/2018 2:22 pm : link
Which wonít be good enough to beat out Dallas or Philadelphia in the standings inside the division or the flock of solid teams in the conference for a WC.
Googs +1  
JonC : 4/9/2018 2:26 pm : link
just like we've seen the past 2-3 seasons, Father Time be undefeated.
I am going out on a limb  
dep026 : 4/9/2018 2:27 pm : link
and tough noogies if you dont like it.

Eli Manning 2018 will be similar to Rich Gannon's 2002. Age of both QBs?

37.
RE: If all it was was coming and and making those throws  
eric2425ny : 4/9/2018 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13906349 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
then Eli would be gone by now. He played in a dogshit offense with a decimated WR corps, a bad oline and running game, and a rookie TE.


Exactly, not to mention that the rookie TE dropped several passes, some of them TDís. I think he will end up being a good one, but have to improve the catch percentage.
RE: I am going out on a limb  
eric2425ny : 4/9/2018 2:30 pm : link
In comment 13906601 dep026 said:
Quote:
and tough noogies if you dont like it.

Eli Manning 2018 will be similar to Rich Gannon's 2002. Age of both QBs?

37.


+1, we are all entitled to our opinion.
RE: I am going out on a limb  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/9/2018 2:36 pm : link
In comment 13906601 dep026 said:
Quote:
and tough noogies if you dont like it.

Eli Manning 2018 will be similar to Rich Gannon's 2002. Age of both QBs?

37.


I'll go out on a further limb and say Eli could have 5 more productive years. Never injured, never took a hard hit in his whole career unlike most qbs who get lit up, like Romo.
Eli @37  
Giantslifer : 4/9/2018 3:20 pm : link
Will be like Eli at any age. He will continue to make rookie mistakes, throw passes consistently high, and end up being an average /slightly below average QB.
He has lost his deep ball, but is stable.

On the other side , he will be available every game. He will pull off a few remarkable plays . If he is given the right combination of OL/DL Giants could be in a playoff position in 2019. Maybe he can go out like Elway.

Overall, he is done in 2 years. Giants need to build interior Ol/DL and build for future.Hopefully Webb will be able to step in.
Why So Much Analysis  
lax counsel : 4/9/2018 3:58 pm : link
Does anyone else find the level of analysis necessitated to make the case of Eli's (I realize that's not what the article states) remaining productivity a bit concerning? Seems like the amount of time dedicated by some analysts and posters making the case for Eli should be a big red flag. That is to say, if we have to go through such great lengths to define a narrow set of circumstances in which Eli can still be moderately successful, perhaps he isn't an NFL starting caliber qb anymore.

For example, Eli needs 5 new offensive linemen who are all of the highest quality, a top rb, and three legit number 1 WRs to have some measure of success. If a qb needs all of that to be successful, should he really be quarterbacking a super bowl hopeful team?

Simply my musings, but I find the level of analysis required to be a big disconcerting.
Whatever Eli has left...  
GeorgeAdams33 : 4/9/2018 4:56 pm : link
I want to see him use it up in a Giants uniform.

This idea that we should draft a QB because Eli is already in decline baffle me. I don't see it. He was always a streaky player and never was very consistent. He is still a gamer though and he showed it in the 2016 playoff game in Green Bay and then in several games this past season. Give him a much better interior O-line than what we can put out there at the moment which isn't much better than last year and it's only on paper. Bring back snaps from under center, a reliable running game, & play action passes.... I hope Eli plays well into his 40's just to prove everyone wrong yet again. Don't bet against him.
RE: Whatever Eli has left...  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/9/2018 5:38 pm : link
In comment 13906901 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
I want to see him use it up in a Giants uniform.

This idea that we should draft a QB because Eli is already in decline baffle me. I don't see it. He was always a streaky player and never was very consistent. He is still a gamer though and he showed it in the 2016 playoff game in Green Bay and then in several games this past season. Give him a much better interior O-line than what we can put out there at the moment which isn't much better than last year and it's only on paper. Bring back snaps from under center, a reliable running game, & play action passes.... I hope Eli plays well into his 40's just to prove everyone wrong yet again. Don't bet against him.

He did.

No what?
RE: RE: Whatever Eli has left...  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/9/2018 5:38 pm : link
In comment 13906958 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13906901 GeorgeAdams33 said:


Quote:


I want to see him use it up in a Giants uniform.

This idea that we should draft a QB because Eli is already in decline baffle me. I don't see it. He was always a streaky player and never was very consistent. He is still a gamer though and he showed it in the 2016 playoff game in Green Bay and then in several games this past season. Give him a much better interior O-line than what we can put out there at the moment which isn't much better than last year and it's only on paper. Bring back snaps from under center, a reliable running game, & play action passes.... I hope Eli plays well into his 40's just to prove everyone wrong yet again. Don't bet against him.


He did.

No what?

Now*
Now that guy  
GeorgeAdams33 : 4/9/2018 5:42 pm : link
can go suck a big dick
Frustrating  
Thegratefulhead : 4/9/2018 6:07 pm : link
I thought the author made a very sound analysis of Eli's play. He included video, relevant statistics and links to explain them. I found ANY/A Average net yard per attempt at footballperspective.com and aDOT average depth of target at airyards.com very compelling and useful information trying to understand what has been going on with Eli. Why does everyone seem only interested in supporting their own personal narrative rather than getting to the truth of the matter? IDGAF whether I am right or wrong.

It is a team sport  
GeorgeAdams33 : 4/9/2018 6:45 pm : link

and the QB always takes the blame
I should've said  
GeorgeAdams33 : 4/9/2018 6:46 pm : link
receives the blame

.....wrongfully in too many cases
RE: Eli @37  
eric2425ny : 4/9/2018 8:19 pm : link
In comment 13906724 Giantslifer said:
Quote:
Will be like Eli at any age. He will continue to make rookie mistakes, throw passes consistently high, and end up being an average /slightly below average QB.
He has lost his deep ball, but is stable.

On the other side , he will be available every game. He will pull off a few remarkable plays . If he is given the right combination of OL/DL Giants could be in a playoff position in 2019. Maybe he can go out like Elway.

Overall, he is done in 2 years. Giants need to build interior Ol/DL and build for future.Hopefully Webb will be able to step in.


Lost his deep ball? His average release time has been sub 3 seconds due to a combination of a shit line (as well as no threat of a running game due to that line), and Macadooís offensive scheme. How many receivers can get deep in 2 seconds? Itís amazing how things have worked with this team the last six years. The offensive line has been the key driver of the decline, we won the last SB with a line on its last legs. Once those guys retired and the replacements sucked, Gilbride was the first scapegoat (his scheme requires the QB to hold the call and therefore requires a good line), then it was Coughlin that was the issue. Then Reese and Macadoo try to run Eli out of town to save their ass, are then properly fired, and now half the fan base is blaming Eli for our lack of production the last few years. What QB would have been successful in that offense last year? And donít say a mobile QB because they would have gotten hurt as always.
Eli has lost his deep ball  
Jimmy Googs : 4/9/2018 8:28 pm : link
and it was lost in early 2016.

And he is not finding it anytime soon...
RE: Eli has lost his deep ball  
eric2425ny : 4/9/2018 8:32 pm : link
In comment 13907159 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
and it was lost in early 2016.

And he is not finding it anytime soon...


Agree to disagree on that one. I think a lot of people on this board are going to be surprised to see how well he plays this year when Gettleman puts a good line in front of him and hopefully a good RB in the backfield. Iím sure Eli is sleeping better knowing Flowers wonít be protecting his blindside anymore.
Flowers wasn't exactly the big problem last year  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/9/2018 8:39 pm : link
Plenty of questions about this o-line at this point.
Yes, that would be suprising  
Jimmy Googs : 4/9/2018 9:08 pm : link
almost shocking...
It's a defining moment for an NFL franchise when their successful  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 4/9/2018 10:08 pm : link
franchise quarterback finally reaches the end. How long will it take to find a replacement and how much will it cost in draft choices?

The main goal is to avoid being the Buffalo Bills, who are still looking for their first franchise QB since Jim Kelly. This looks like the year that team, which has already traded to move up in the draft, will give up as many draft choices as necessary to finally end their quarterback nightmare.

It looked like the Cowboys had their next franchise quarterback fall out of the clouds and land in their locker room. But entering his third year, the 'Boys and fans will be holding their breaths to see if they get the four pick first year Dak or the thirteen pick second year Dak.

Rarely does a team have the situation set up as well as it does for the Giants this draft. As their trusty Eli prepares to wrap up his career, the Giants should be able to hit his successor in stride, using only one draft choice in a quarterback-rich draft.

The only alternative that they might go for is if Buffalo offered them that basketload of draft picks, and it included at least a #1 for next season to help them get that QB next year.

But it is so less risky just to do the deed this year.
Especially when there is no obvious QB next year.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/9/2018 10:20 pm : link
Darnold and Rosen were already known commodities a year before they declared. There's definitely a big risk in just assuming you can trade down and get a QB next year.
RE: RE: Eli @37  
Thegratefulhead : 4/10/2018 11:22 am : link
In comment 13907144 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 13906724 Giantslifer said:


Quote:


Will be like Eli at any age. He will continue to make rookie mistakes, throw passes consistently high, and end up being an average /slightly below average QB.
He has lost his deep ball, but is stable.

On the other side , he will be available every game. He will pull off a few remarkable plays . If he is given the right combination of OL/DL Giants could be in a playoff position in 2019. Maybe he can go out like Elway.

Overall, he is done in 2 years. Giants need to build interior Ol/DL and build for future.Hopefully Webb will be able to step in.



Lost his deep ball? His average release time has been sub 3 seconds due to a combination of a shit line (as well as no threat of a running game due to that line), and Macadooís offensive scheme. How many receivers can get deep in 2 seconds? Itís amazing how things have worked with this team the last six years. The offensive line has been the key driver of the decline, we won the last SB with a line on its last legs. Once those guys retired and the replacements sucked, Gilbride was the first scapegoat (his scheme requires the QB to hold the call and therefore requires a good line), then it was Coughlin that was the issue. Then Reese and Macadoo try to run Eli out of town to save their ass, are then properly fired, and now half the fan base is blaming Eli for our lack of production the last few years. What QB would have been successful in that offense last year? And donít say a mobile QB because they would have gotten hurt as always.
The analysis shows Eli's accuracy over the years. It isolated throws ONLY FROM CLEAN POCKETS and included supporting video evidence. His accuracy on deep balls has declined, he is below league average on these throws. Again, from a clean pocket only. If you are honest with yourself and look at the videos he is missing people wide open deep.
RE: RE: Eli @37  
Giantslifer : 4/10/2018 1:58 pm : link
In comment 13907144 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 13906724 Giantslifer said:


Quote:


Will be like Eli at any age. He will continue to make rookie mistakes, throw passes consistently high, and end up being an average /slightly below average QB.
He has lost his deep ball, but is stable.

On the other side , he will be available every game. He will pull off a few remarkable plays . If he is given the right combination of OL/DL Giants could be in a playoff position in 2019. Maybe he can go out like Elway.

Overall, he is done in 2 years. Giants need to build interior Ol/DL and build for future.Hopefully Webb will be able to step in.



Lost his deep ball? His average release time has been sub 3 seconds due to a combination of a shit line (as well as no threat of a running game due to that line), and Macadooís offensive scheme. How many receivers can get deep in 2 seconds? Itís amazing how things have worked with this team the last six years. The offensive line has been the key driver of the decline, we won the last SB with a line on its last legs. Once those guys retired and the replacements sucked, Gilbride was the first scapegoat (his scheme requires the QB to hold the call and therefore requires a good line), then it was Coughlin that was the issue. Then Reese and Macadoo try to run Eli out of town to save their ass, are then properly fired, and now half the fan base is blaming Eli for our lack of production the last few years. What QB would have been successful in that offense last year? And donít say a mobile QB because they would have gotten hurt as always.


The Manning fan club strikes again. Eli is/was an average QB.he has always thrown a high ball, his decision making - always questionable.
His great asset is he will take any hit and get up, quiet toughness.The reality is he is almost finished. Hopefully the Giants will load up on OL/DL and give him one last shot in 2019.
I would rather see him go out like Elway than like his brother.
The mere mention  
dep026 : 4/10/2018 2:24 pm : link
of people calling Eli an average in the past is just weird anymore. he may be on the downside of his career - but average? Come on now, its just silly.
Eli was clearly better than average for years. No question.  
Jimmy Googs : 4/10/2018 2:52 pm : link
And he has been average at best as of late, and declining...
Just a never ending discussion-and beaten to death  
hassan : 4/11/2018 7:07 am : link
All I will say is:

I agree with Jimmy Googs thoroughly on this topic.......

And, I fully expect Eli will be done quicker than many of you expect. A 2-4 start and it may all be over. Hope not just because I donít want another bad season but I think his end is imminent if Giants are not out of the gate competing for a playoff birth.

Iím confused by those who think the Giants see a guy with 2-3 seasons left. They had to save face and can the gm and coach but they are clearly ready to move on. And my guess is we will see that manifest in a qb pick.

He will get every means to prove his value go forward but I suspect the hook will be quick and the leash is short.

The greatfulhead  
hassan : 4/11/2018 7:14 am : link
With an excellent article. Too bad most people wonít digest it and will resort to their stance of choice.

ANY/A is a great stat and puts in perspective good qb performance.
Its like staying in a relationship  
AnyoneButPhilly : 4/11/2018 7:51 am : link
with someone you know is wrong for you but she got drunk back in 2007 and brought one of her girlfriends home for a three way and then did it again in 2011. So now you're just sitting there unhappy with the hopes that will happen again
The question that hasnít been brought up enough  
dep026 : 4/11/2018 9:29 am : link
Is Eliís kills inbdecline or was it the idiot who was the HC the last two years the reason for the decline?

I am somewhere on it was both and thatís why I am curious to see how he plays this year. I think anyone ruling out 4.000, 30 TD season could be in a surprise but also anyone expecting a pro bowl year is as well.

I want to see how he does without McAdoo. He deserves that right.
Decline. Period. Full Stop.  
Jimmy Googs : 4/11/2018 10:30 pm : link
Any and all ďdeservingĒ snaps delay the inevitable restructuring process that has to occur on the field...

Love the Eli for 2 fabulous Super Bowl runs. But anybody thinking this franchise hasnít paid and treated him fabulously for years is comical.

Giants owe him nothing...
^  
lono801 : 4/11/2018 11:12 pm : link
That's a good one...

That could be the best anti-Eli rant I have read yet..

Are there more beers in the cooler?

Maybe?

Look at the Big picture?
Please  
Jimmy Googs : 4/11/2018 11:15 pm : link
Stop

Drinking

The

Cool-aid...h
RE: The question that hasnít been brought up enough  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/11/2018 11:22 pm : link
In comment 13909062 dep026 said:
Quote:
Is Eliís kills inbdecline or was it the idiot who was the HC the last two years the reason for the decline?

I am somewhere on it was both and thatís why I am curious to see how he plays this year. I think anyone ruling out 4.000, 30 TD season could be in a surprise but also anyone expecting a pro bowl year is as well.

I want to see how he does without McAdoo. He deserves that right.

Eli is 37. There's a very good chance that he's physically in decline. And there's proof of it too, but it's advanced metrics-based which is not widely accepted (yet). But the 37 part, that's a fact. And rebuilding a 3-13 team around a 37 year old is a little bit like trying to build a mansion on a foundation of quicksand.
This Org has been a clusterfuck since TC was canned  
lono801 : 4/11/2018 11:24 pm : link
I don't see how you can place blame on anyone till this thing is figured out...

Certainly not Eli

My view and nothing else
RE: This Org has been a clusterfuck since TC was canned  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/11/2018 11:40 pm : link
In comment 13910485 lono801 said:
Quote:
I don't see how you can place blame on anyone till this thing is figured out...

Certainly not Eli

My view and nothing else

Haha right, that's when the cluster started. If you say so.
GD....  
lono801 : 4/11/2018 11:59 pm : link
There will always be two sides to the coin...

If anyone has failed Eli...it was Reese and his own Ego/ Agenda/No More
Coughlin...

It's how I see it...

Now we are here...
RE: Just a never ending discussion-and beaten to death  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/12/2018 12:29 am : link
In comment 13908893 hassan said:
Quote:

Iím confused by those who think the Giants see a guy with 2-3 seasons left.


A fanbase with deep emotional attachment shouldn't be a surprise. Look at the uproar when they didn't start him for a game. Just like there are some people who weren't and still aren't ready to move on from Tom Coughlin, there are some people who think Eli should get the ball until he himself decides to move on.
Eli has lost the long ball?  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/12/2018 3:33 am : link
Look -- I'm not going to be rabid here -- but I don't thin so

He's shown himself to be able to make the long pass in the past three years -- even though the scheme stressed a three count drop

now is he inconsistent -- he's always been inconsistent -- does he thrive in a pocket where there are constant heat missiles coming at him -- no frikken qb can -- even Tom Brady can't

this narrative of Eli not being able to make the throws is based on an equation some of you are walking around with in your heads -- getting older -- must be getting worse --

--it's not based on what he's actually been able to do. Eli is in tremendous condition and I think he has a few good years left in him and he has demonstrated physically that he can make the throws

so I don't know what the rest of you are seeing -- but it may be going through some kind of special filter system -- cause from what I can see he can still play

there was a line some of you guys were carrying about his weak grip in 2007 -- so I want to remind you -- narrative does not equal reality -- maybe take a look at his game film and get a dose of it

after reviewing the above -- there are game clips of  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/12/2018 3:49 am : link
Eli overthrowing his receivers -- from last season -- so the debate is not whether he can make the throws -- because the film linked above certainly shows he can make the throws -- it is - is Eli accurate?

so I'm going to tell you in the same analysis -- the author said he is still accurate in the quick short timing game -- which certainly was the scheme

and the facts are that the scheme that McAdoo ran was a timing game -- so the QB is supposed to get in a rhythm -- and what I see in those long passes is a QB that is not in rhythm with his receiver

and primarily with Beckham -- who was hobbled all season before he went on ir ---Engram and Eli were in their first year together too

You want to argue his timing was off with both of them for stretches -- that's possible -- that doesn't mean he can make the throws -- that's what a lot of you above are arguing -- and it is clearly ridiculous
Eli can still play  
Thegratefulhead : 4/12/2018 9:35 am : link
His skills have declined enough that he is average, not likely to improve, very likely to decline more. I think you can definitely win with him if you give him all the things everyone agrees that he needs. A rookie or journeyman can win with those things in today's NFL too. No knock on Eli, father time be undefeated.
gratefulhead  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/12/2018 10:33 am : link
I strongly disagree with your assessment and ask that you demonstrate with some proof what you are saying

To me it just sounds like you have a narrative pasted in your head - over ruling the eyes
RE: gratefulhead  
Thegratefulhead : 4/12/2018 11:59 am : link
In comment 13910857 gidiefor said:
Quote:
I strongly disagree with your assessment and ask that you demonstrate with some proof what you are saying

To me it just sounds like you have a narrative pasted in your head - over ruling the eyes
I included tons of proof in the link. Statistical analysis of Eli over the years from clean pockets including the NFL averages over the same time period. One has only to read it. From clean pockets, his deep ball accuracy has declined vs the rest of the NFL, fact. How much more proof can a person provide other than stats and video? It sounds like the only evidence you are willing to accept is Eli admitting it himself "I am not the same as I used to be" I would argue that you are missing the eye test and have a narrative, not I. By every statistical measure of QB efficiency Eli has declined. The best anyone can argue is subjective evidence to make excuses for the decline or point to statistical outliers or use a small sample size in an attempt to support an illogical defense of his decline. I do not know if the author I linked is correct, based on the evidence I agree with his conclusion because it was so well supported. Is what it is.
Deep ball  
Thegratefulhead : 4/12/2018 12:08 pm : link
"Now comes the troubling part. Over the past three seasons, Manning has been below average up to three yards, closer to average from five to around 17 yards past the line of scrimmage, and then thereís a steep drop off on anything deeper.

In its simplest terms, what this trend shows is Manning has lost the deep ball ó or at least the ability to consistently hit it. Per the NFLís Next Gen Stats, Manningís longest completion of the season traveled 46.2 yards through the air, the fifth-shortest max throw from a quarterback in 2017."
I love Eli...  
trueblueinpw : 4/12/2018 7:28 pm : link
Say it all the time, heís my all time favorite. But we need to draft a QB. I canít imagine that Gettleman, not known for his sentimentality, doesnít see this too.
This thread is past its course  
hassan : 4/15/2018 2:26 pm : link
But Iíll add a little bit of insight. Watch Eliís game winning drive against the Broncos in 2005 on YouTube. Look at him elude pressure and buy time to extend plays multiple times - it was like watching a totally different qb.

I have not seen Eli do anything remotely close to that in years regarding moving around in the pocket and eluding pass rushers. And there was quick pressure a few times in that sequence.

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