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No Flowers at Giants Facility today

gidiefor : Mod : 4/9/2018 1:47 pm
per Art Stapleton
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I hope this means he is off the team  
SomeFan : 4/9/2018 4:37 pm : link
He is terrible
Not to drag Odell into this ...  
FStubbs : 4/9/2018 4:50 pm : link
... but he's holding out and even he showed up.

Not a good look for Flowers. Does he want to be cut? Does he want out? Maybe that's it.
RE: RE: RE: Voluntary  
Bill in UT : 4/9/2018 5:02 pm : link
In comment 13906869 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13906861 Bill in UT said:


Quote:


A word used to placate the league when describing events that you're expected to show up for, especially when your job is on the line



If it's that important, feel free to blame the owners for approving that part of the labor agreement. Make it mandatory. They didn't, for whatever reason. Likely, because they traded it for the right to keep more revenue. So how important is it?


I blame everyone- the players for insisting on a sissy offseason/training camp schedule and the owners for ratifying it. But mostly, I blame Flowers for being a dumbass
Voluntary  
Torrag : 4/9/2018 5:07 pm : link
Bullshit. It's not voluntary when you don't have a startring job and a new HC is looking to get his team together for the first time. A major problem with the Reese/Ross approach to talent acquisition is they acquireed way too many dummies.
did anyone ask the HC....  
BillKo : 4/9/2018 5:10 pm : link
I mean, to me, after OBJ, that's the number one question.
Maybe...  
GeorgeAdams33 : 4/9/2018 5:12 pm : link
Bobby Hart got him a new job
RE: New regime.  
micky : 4/9/2018 5:43 pm : link
In comment 13906757 Beezer said:
Quote:
New coach supposedly called and said he'd be flipping sides of the line. Essentially learning a new position. Three years a starter with mixed results, at best, as a #1 draft choice for the franchise. And a pretty tenuous ending to the previous season, with some real concerns different levels.

Yes, I want to know if it was excused/expected for a decent reason. But in the absence of that? Thin ice just sprung a huge crack.



this

was there an explanation or excusused given yet?
Pussy is  
XBRONX : 4/9/2018 5:48 pm : link
upset he is is not the starting LT.
So fucking stupid. Talk about getting off to the wrong start  
yatqb : 4/9/2018 6:01 pm : link
with new bosses. Idiot.
My guess...  
Milton : 4/9/2018 6:11 pm : link
He wants to be traded to a team that will give him a chance to compete for the starting left tackle job. I hope he gets his wish!
As Shurmur said last week,  
Bill in UT : 4/9/2018 6:13 pm : link
Monday is a fresh start for everyone
RE: As Shurmur said last week,  
LarmerTJR : 4/9/2018 6:17 pm : link
So I guess Flowers didn't feel he needed a fresh start. Felt his play and attitude spoke for itself. I tend to agree.

See ya!

In comment 13906997 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
Monday is a fresh start for everyone
RE: Staying away  
Jimmy Googs : 4/9/2018 6:19 pm : link
In comment 13906540 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
is his best contribution to date.


That made me chuckle
RE: My guess...  
Jimmy Googs : 4/9/2018 6:29 pm : link
In comment 13906994 Milton said:
Quote:
He wants to be traded to a team that will give him a chance to compete for the starting left tackle job.


Did he use up his college eligibility?
Maybe he got confused when the coaches said they  
Jimmy Googs : 4/9/2018 6:33 pm : link
expect all starters to be in attendance...
RE: Maybe he got confused when the coaches said they  
mfsd : 4/9/2018 6:34 pm : link
In comment 13907022 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
expect all starters to be in attendance...


Haha, zing!
.  
arcarsenal : 4/9/2018 7:01 pm : link
I'll wait to see if there's an actual reason or not before I crucify him - but I will say that if he wasn't there solely by choice, it's probably not a wise decision. He has a LOT to prove on the football field and needs all the work he can get.

It's one thing if it's someone like Michael Strahan. But when you're Ereck Flowers, you should be there unless you have a damn good reason not to be.
Perhaps  
bc4life : 4/9/2018 7:25 pm : link
the best thing would be if we could find a willing trade partner.
RE: Perhaps  
Milton : 4/9/2018 7:37 pm : link
In comment 13907074 bc4life said:
Quote:
the best thing would be if we could find a willing trade partner.
There are teams with both plenty of cap room and extra late round draft picks that might feel he is worth the $2.4M in salary as an experienced left tackle. It might not be something that happens until the middle of day three, but I don't think he is long for the team and whatever they can get in return is worth subtracting his guaranteed salary from their salary cap dollars.
I'll wait to see if there's a justifable  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/9/2018 8:24 pm : link
reason for him not being there. If not, not a good look with a new regime in place & how '17 ended for him.
You can question his intelligence and/or judgment....  
Milton : 4/9/2018 8:36 pm : link
But his guaranteed salary gives him plenty of leverage if he doesn't want to switch to the right side of the line. The Giants have three choices, they could..
a) suffer through minicamps and training camp with a malcontent that only does what is minimally required and brings down the energy in the OL room
b) release him
c) trade him to a team that is weak at the left tackle position and has the cap room and draft picks for it to make sense.

If they choose (b), Flowers gets to eat his cake and have it, too. Not only does he still get paid, but he gets to choose his next team. And depending on whether or not there is offset language in his rookie contract, he might even make an extra million bucks, give or take a few hundred K. So (c) is the option we should all be rooting for and I don't think it's a pipe dream to believe there is a team out there willing to give up a late round pick for him.
RE: RE: Perhaps  
NikkiMac : 4/9/2018 8:43 pm : link
In comment 13907088 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13907074 bc4life said:


Quote:


the best thing would be if we could find a willing trade partner.

There are teams with both plenty of cap room and extra late round draft picks that might feel he is worth the $2.4M in salary as an experienced left tackle. It might not be something that happens until the middle of day three, but I don't think he is long for the team and whatever they can get in return is worth subtracting his guaranteed salary from their salary cap dollars.


I agree with you Milton and some other team will probably pay him a lot of money too the way they are throwing around money for OL ..... It seems like these guys don’t even have to play well in they’re contract year anymore look at Richburg and Pugh.......
RE: You can question his intelligence and/or judgment....  
Diver_Down : 4/9/2018 8:50 pm : link
In comment 13907173 Milton said:
Quote:
But his guaranteed salary gives him plenty of leverage if he doesn't want to switch to the right side of the line. The Giants have three choices, they could..
a) suffer through minicamps and training camp with a malcontent that only does what is minimally required and brings down the energy in the OL room
b) release him
c) trade him to a team that is weak at the left tackle position and has the cap room and draft picks for it to make sense.

If they choose (b), Flowers gets to eat his cake and have it, too. Not only does he still get paid, but he gets to choose his next team. And depending on whether or not there is offset language in his rookie contract, he might even make an extra million bucks, give or take a few hundred K. So (c) is the option we should all be rooting for and I don't think it's a pipe dream to believe there is a team out there willing to give up a late round pick for him.


Your (b) option isn't quite correct. He is not a vested veteran. He is only entering his 4th year. He needs to accrue 4 years to be considered a vested veteran. If he is released, he is exposed to waivers in which case whomever claims him get him at the salary that remains on his current contract. If he was a vested veteran, then he would become a FA free to sign and negotiate a new contract.

These scenarios are where Lil Bill takes advantage of the rules. He claims these lost causes only for them to walk in FA. The Pats in turn get a comp pick for only keeping a guy on the roster for a year.
RE: RE: You can question his intelligence and/or judgment....  
Milton : 4/9/2018 8:59 pm : link
In comment 13907187 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13907173 Milton said:


Quote:


But his guaranteed salary gives him plenty of leverage if he doesn't want to switch to the right side of the line. The Giants have three choices, they could..
a) suffer through minicamps and training camp with a malcontent that only does what is minimally required and brings down the energy in the OL room
b) release him
c) trade him to a team that is weak at the left tackle position and has the cap room and draft picks for it to make sense.

If they choose (b), Flowers gets to eat his cake and have it, too. Not only does he still get paid, but he gets to choose his next team. And depending on whether or not there is offset language in his rookie contract, he might even make an extra million bucks, give or take a few hundred K. So (c) is the option we should all be rooting for and I don't think it's a pipe dream to believe there is a team out there willing to give up a late round pick for him.



Your (b) option isn't quite correct. He is not a vested veteran. He is only entering his 4th year. He needs to accrue 4 years to be considered a vested veteran. If he is released, he is exposed to waivers in which case whomever claims him get him at the salary that remains on his current contract. If he was a vested veteran, then he would become a FA free to sign and negotiate a new contract.
Correction noted, thank you, but that does require another team to be willing to take on his $2.4M salary. And if that team is out there, hopefully the Giants can get them to fork over a 6th or 7th round pick before it comes down to that.
RE: He had  
DavidinBMNY : 4/9/2018 9:35 pm : link
In comment 13906836 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
better have a hell of an excuse... otherwise, how stupid can one person possibly be?


He will not win the starting job and may be out of the league before the regular season at this rate.
RE: So fucking stupid. Talk about getting off to the wrong start  
DavidinBMNY : 4/9/2018 9:36 pm : link
In comment 13906985 yatqb said:
Quote:
with new bosses. Idiot.
This sums it up
That "clean slate"  
David B. : 4/9/2018 10:40 pm : link
is now a little dustier, I would think.
Fat, dumb and stupid  
BigBlue4You09 : 4/9/2018 10:55 pm : link
No way to go through life
IMO  
Dragon : 4/10/2018 1:20 am : link
I felt Manning, JPP, Jenkins, Oliver, Flowers, Apple and Collins needed to be moved they are just not part of the changes this team needs going forward. As camps are starting they still have six of the troubled seven not a good thing. Now it seems we may even have to add OBJ to make it a solid eight but now is the time to do it don't waste another year dreaming.
RE: IMO  
GiantGrit : 4/10/2018 2:30 am : link
In comment 13907331 Dragon said:
Quote:
I felt Manning, JPP, Jenkins, Oliver, Flowers, Apple and Collins needed to be moved they are just not part of the changes this team needs going forward. As camps are starting they still have six of the troubled seven not a good thing. Now it seems we may even have to add OBJ to make it a solid eight but now is the time to do it don't waste another year dreaming.


I would highly suggest not doing that until we see how they perform under the new regime. I personally liked the JPP move. Flowers and Apple you can make great arguments to move on. Jenkins Oliver and Collins are all pro caliber players, i would not be in a rush to move any of them just yet. Especially Collins, but he does need to tone down the public talk of the locker room. I think he will. Gettleman and Shula do not seem like the type to let that fly. As for Eli, it made sense to keep him this year. No money saved and if you do pick a qb at 2 you want him to sit and learn.
Upset that he lost his left tackle job  
Les in TO : 4/10/2018 6:03 am : link
Or the dog ate his schedule?
Maestro, if you please...  
Klaatu : 4/10/2018 7:12 am : link
Dead Flowers.
RE: IMO  
the mike : 4/10/2018 10:35 am : link
In comment 13907331 Dragon said:
Quote:
I felt Manning, JPP, Jenkins, Oliver, Flowers, Apple and Collins needed to be moved they are just not part of the changes this team needs going forward. As camps are starting they still have six of the troubled seven not a good thing. Now it seems we may even have to add OBJ to make it a solid eight but now is the time to do it don't waste another year dreaming.


Gettleman's comment "you don't give up on talent" was a brilliant opening salvo in re-engaging with this group including OBJ. I liked the JPP trade very much as the contract never made any sense to begin. I was hoping we could restructure DRC's contract, but yesterday's news on his hotel party suggests your opinion to cut chord makes the most sense there. I do agree that it is time to give up on Flowers, but then that would not conflict with Gettleman's statement.

But everyone else you have listed is a pro bowl caliber player and I believe their problems last year were primarily due to McAdoo's failed leadership. I am confident they will perform at a very high level in 2018 with Shurmur, Shula and Bettcher at the helm...
Not enough info for the stupid white judgments being expressed  
Bob in Newburgh : 4/10/2018 11:08 am : link
What if he is working with a private coach on his technique, which has always been the issue with him?

Or what if he is doing what might be smart for him (if he doesn't want the position change) which is clearing the way politically for the new regime to sever ties early? It may well be the smartest thing he can do for his career.

If I read the rules correctly  
Beer Man : 4/10/2018 4:49 pm : link
The first two weeks of the off-season program (Phase-1) are limited to strength and conditioning and physical rehabilitation only. The following three weeks (Phase-2), teams are allowed on-field workouts, individual player instruction and drills and team practice. Even if he is on a strict personal work out regimen, it looks really bad for him to not be there with his team. If he doesn't show up for Phase-2, I would cut him the first time he screws up when 2018 camp starts in the fall. He has never lived up to his lofty draft status and last year we found he may becoming a cancer in the locker room. I'm pulling for him to be an awesome RT, but if this shit continues, I'm all for cutting out the cancer at the first opportunity.
Beer Man  
mittenedman : 4/10/2018 6:16 pm : link
They cant cut him. Due to cap hit.
DG wanted him gone when he got here.
Trade him - maybe we can improve our Rd 2 draft position into  
PatersonPlank : 4/10/2018 7:28 pm : link
Rd 1 by offering him up
RE: Trade him - maybe we can improve our Rd 2 draft position into  
blueblood : 4/10/2018 8:29 pm : link
In comment 13908454 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
Rd 1 by offering him up


by offering someone everyone pretty much considers a slug.. and one that needs a new contract?? how attractive is that ?
I get that we don't have all the info yet  
santacruzom : 4/10/2018 8:30 pm : link
and I therefore can't know for a fact that this is symptomatic of Flowers' general lack of effort, but I still think that this is symptomatic of Flowers' general lack of effort.
Did Flowers  
mrvax : 4/10/2018 8:35 pm : link
not show again Tuesday?
RE: Beer Man  
Beer Man : 4/11/2018 7:00 am : link
In comment 13908352 mittenedman said:
Quote:
They cant cut him. Due to cap hit.
DG wanted him gone when he got here.
I don't know the facts of the situation. Flowers my have a very good reason for not being there with his team, or maybe not. If this is being done out of spite or due to an overall lack of dedication and effort, then $4.5M in dead cap may be worth it to rid the team of a cancer.
RE: Beer Man  
Big Blue Blogger : 4/11/2018 8:03 am : link
mittenedman said:
Quote:
They cant cut him. Due to cap hit. DG wanted him gone when he got here.
Meh. The dead cap is $2.2MM in unamortized bonus plus any difference between his scheduled salary of $2.4MM and whatever he actually makes with a new team. So - elaborating on Milton's post above - the cap hit could be as low as $2.2MM if Flowers is claimed on waivers with his current contract. It could be around $3.9MM if he clears waivers, signs for the minimum salary of $705K and winds up making exactly that much. The maximum dead-money hit is the full $4.6MM; that would require him being out of the league altogether, which seems unlikely. There are far worse backup tackles in the NFL.

There's no acceleration of money owed for subsequent years, because 2018 is the final season of his contract. Even if the Giants had exercised his fifth-year option, that money would only be guaranteed against injury.

There's a decent chance he would be claimed, because $2.4MM isn't even starter money. But assuming he cleared waivers, he would probably get something above the minimum. There's no particular significance to the minimum salary (other than to set an absolute floor), because a fourth-year pro like Flowers doesn't qualify for cap relief on a vet-min deal. A further complication is the high likelihood of playing-time incentives on any new contract.

Bottom line: figure on a dead-money hit of around $3MM, with net 2018 cap savings around $1.5MM. In other words, the cap isn't an issue at all. If the Giants want to jettison Flowers, they can do it. Of course, they will need another tackle to replace him, but that's less a cap problem than a possible "Wheeler and Bisnowaty suck" problem.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/11/2018 8:13 am : link
Quote:
IMO
Dragon : 4/10/2018 1:20 am : link : reply
I felt Manning, JPP, Jenkins, Oliver, Flowers, Apple and Collins needed to be moved they are just not part of the changes this team needs going forward. As camps are starting they still have six of the troubled seven not a good thing. Now it seems we may even have to add OBJ to make it a solid eight but now is the time to do it don't waste another year dreaming.


You want Jenkins and Collins gone??

Some of you guys are just fucking moronic. On what planet is getting rid of some of the best defensive players advisable?
Could this be the end of the Ereck Flowers era  
Ira : 4/11/2018 8:48 am : link
?
No explanation  
TMS : 4/11/2018 9:02 am : link
why he did not attend yet is ominous two days later. Thought something would have leaked by how from the team or someone. This is a big deal with the draft right around the corner and the shape of our OL now.
RE: RE: Beer Man  
Beer Man : 4/11/2018 9:29 am : link
In comment 13908920 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
mittenedman said:

Quote:


They cant cut him. Due to cap hit. DG wanted him gone when he got here.

Meh. The dead cap is $2.2MM in unamortized bonus plus any difference between his scheduled salary of $2.4MM and whatever he actually makes with a new team. So - elaborating on Milton's post above - the cap hit could be as low as $2.2MM if Flowers is claimed on waivers with his current contract. It could be around $3.9MM if he clears waivers, signs for the minimum salary of $705K and winds up making exactly that much. The maximum dead-money hit is the full $4.6MM; that would require him being out of the league altogether, which seems unlikely. There are far worse backup tackles in the NFL.

There's no acceleration of money owed for subsequent years, because 2018 is the final season of his contract. Even if the Giants had exercised his fifth-year option, that money would only be guaranteed against injury.

There's a decent chance he would be claimed, because $2.4MM isn't even starter money. But assuming he cleared waivers, he would probably get something above the minimum. There's no particular significance to the minimum salary (other than to set an absolute floor), because a fourth-year pro like Flowers doesn't qualify for cap relief on a vet-min deal. A further complication is the high likelihood of playing-time incentives on any new contract.

Bottom line: figure on a dead-money hit of around $3MM, with net 2018 cap savings around $1.5MM. In other words, the cap isn't an issue at all. If the Giants want to jettison Flowers, they can do it. Of course, they will need another tackle to replace him, but that's less a cap problem than a possible "Wheeler and Bisnowaty suck" problem.
According to "Over the Cap", Flowers has a $4.5 hit to the 2018 salary cap, all of which is guaranteed and would be counted as dead money if he is cut ($2.4M in guaranteed salary, $2.18M in prorated bonus). If correct, there is no salary cap savings if he is cut.
OverTheCap - Ereck Flowers - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: Beer Man  
Beer Man : 4/11/2018 9:30 am : link
In comment 13909061 Beer Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13908920 Big Blue Blogger said:


Quote:


mittenedman said:

Quote:


They cant cut him. Due to cap hit. DG wanted him gone when he got here.

Meh. The dead cap is $2.2MM in unamortized bonus plus any difference between his scheduled salary of $2.4MM and whatever he actually makes with a new team. So - elaborating on Milton's post above - the cap hit could be as low as $2.2MM if Flowers is claimed on waivers with his current contract. It could be around $3.9MM if he clears waivers, signs for the minimum salary of $705K and winds up making exactly that much. The maximum dead-money hit is the full $4.6MM; that would require him being out of the league altogether, which seems unlikely. There are far worse backup tackles in the NFL.

There's no acceleration of money owed for subsequent years, because 2018 is the final season of his contract. Even if the Giants had exercised his fifth-year option, that money would only be guaranteed against injury.

There's a decent chance he would be claimed, because $2.4MM isn't even starter money. But assuming he cleared waivers, he would probably get something above the minimum. There's no particular significance to the minimum salary (other than to set an absolute floor), because a fourth-year pro like Flowers doesn't qualify for cap relief on a vet-min deal. A further complication is the high likelihood of playing-time incentives on any new contract.

Bottom line: figure on a dead-money hit of around $3MM, with net 2018 cap savings around $1.5MM. In other words, the cap isn't an issue at all. If the Giants want to jettison Flowers, they can do it. Of course, they will need another tackle to replace him, but that's less a cap problem than a possible "Wheeler and Bisnowaty suck" problem.

According to "Over the Cap", Flowers has a $4.5 hit to the 2018 salary cap, all of which is guaranteed and would be counted as dead money if he is cut ($2.4M in guaranteed salary, $2.18M in prorated bonus). If correct, there is no salary cap savings if he is cut. OverTheCap - Ereck Flowers - ( New Window )
Never-mind, I should have read your hole post.
RE: RE: Trade him - maybe we can improve our Rd 2 draft position into  
PatersonPlank : 4/11/2018 9:41 am : link
In comment 13908530 blueblood said:
Quote:
In comment 13908454 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


Rd 1 by offering him up



by offering someone everyone pretty much considers a slug.. and one that needs a new contract?? how attractive is that ?


He's a former first round pick, and has been a starter for his time here at LT. Yes, that is worth something to someone.
Sure DG  
TMS : 4/11/2018 12:38 pm : link
is trying to shop him for some type of value in a trade for pick or draft spot.
RE: Sure DG  
Jimmy Googs : 4/11/2018 10:22 pm : link
In comment 13909374 TMS said:
Quote:
is trying to shop him for some type of value in a trade for pick or draft spot.


Range of value is somewhere between a six pack of beer and 2022 7th round pick...
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