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Which is more regrettable...

Milton : 4/9/2018 2:18 pm
They say that in life, we ultimately regret more the things we didn't do than the things we did. So which would be more regrettable, to draft the next JaMarcus Russell or pass on the next Aaron Rodgers?

In 2005, with the #2 ovrall pick the Dolphins selected Ronnie Brown over Aaron Rodgers. In 2007 the Raiders selected JaMarcus Russell over Adrian Peterson. With 20-20 hindsight, which team made the bigger blunder?
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It's a dumb question because there's no answer to it  
Bill L : 4/9/2018 2:45 pm : link
Because, by passing on a player you pick someone else.

DO you regret passing on Rodgers because you picked another stud who led you to a championship?

Or do you regret passing on Rodgers because you picked a merely solid player?

In both cases, you missed out on the premier guy but you still helped your team.

That's merely a question of envy. Do you regret marrying your wife because of who Verlander married?

On the other side, when you pick a Russell and he busts, there is no replacement to that pick. It's gone and you wouldn't even add a non-exciting but useful cog. You get nothing, zero zilch for it. In fact, you get less than that, because you probably wait too many years to cut your losses in the faint hope that you can get some recoup of your investment. So you spiral downward.

Bill L  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2018 2:46 pm : link
another horrible GM. Get with the program.
I'd have to say  
YAJ2112 : 4/9/2018 2:46 pm : link
opening this thread even though I knew where it was going would be the most regrettable
RE: It's a dumb question because there's no answer to it  
Bill L : 4/9/2018 2:46 pm : link
In comment 13906651 Bill L said:
Quote:
Because, by passing on a player you pick someone else.

DO you regret passing on Rodgers because you picked another stud who led you to a championship?

Or do you regret passing on Rodgers because you picked a merely solid player?

In both cases, you missed out on the premier guy but you still helped your team.

That's merely a question of envy. Do you regret marrying your wife because of who Verlander married?

On the other side, when you pick a Russell and he busts, there is no replacement to that pick. It's gone and you wouldn't even add a non-exciting but useful cog. You get nothing, zero zilch for it. In fact, you get less than that, because you probably wait too many years to cut your losses in the faint hope that you can get some recoup of your investment. So you spiral downward.
Correction,

In one of those scenarios, you didn't miss out on the premier guy. You got another premier guy.

This is not HIghlander...there can be more than one.

You can succeed in many ways. But you just cannot fail.
RE: so your 1 player sample size proves your point  
Milton : 4/9/2018 2:52 pm : link
In comment 13906646 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and makes mine shit? Got it.

Why are we even talking about Rodgers anyway? Over 20 teams passed on him. How many teams took a shit QB at 2 and haven't won anything? You are making my point for me.
Forget the samples I used, just think of it philosophically. Of course teams move on after missing on a Hall of Fame QB, just as they move on from drafting a QB who busts. In the latter case, you lament the cost in money and time spend developing the QB, in the former you lament missing out on being in the Super Bowl hunt year in and year out. Which is the heavier price?
Phins  
Dragon : 4/9/2018 2:54 pm : link
Keep patching just wonít admit itís time to rebuild and not retool. Hate to say this but Russell even today would be ranked number one ☝️ in 9 out of ten drafts no one can get inside the minds of these players. They all attend the praise be to god academy interview program just prior to city police 🚔 patrols arrival.
RE: RE: RE: A lot of teams regret passing on  
WillVAB : 4/9/2018 2:55 pm : link
In comment 13906595 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13906586 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


These aren't comparable circumstances. But to answer the question it has to be JaMarcus Russell, especially since their was no slotted rookie cap in place.

Well there is now, so instead of being so literal, stick to the point: is it worse to draft a QB who busts or to pass on a QB who makes it to the Hall of Fame? The answer should be pretty obvious to anyone being honest with themselves.


Depends on what you have on the roster at the QB position. If you have a bad QB situation, you might as well roll the dice on a new QB. If he fails, you missed out on other good players, but youíre essentially in the same position prior to drafting the player.

If you already have an average or better QB on the roster thereís considerable more risk ďgambling on greatness.Ē
Picking a bad QB is far more regrettable than passing up a good one  
Heisenberg : 4/9/2018 2:58 pm : link
A bad QB will take down your franchise quickly. There are other options after passing up a great one that might be nearly as good and not ruin your team.

It's a false dichotomy though because there's no real way to be sure which one you are doing. You make the best call with the info you have and proceed from there.
RE: RE: so your 1 player sample size proves your point  
Bill L : 4/9/2018 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13906665 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13906646 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


and makes mine shit? Got it.

Why are we even talking about Rodgers anyway? Over 20 teams passed on him. How many teams took a shit QB at 2 and haven't won anything? You are making my point for me.

Forget the samples I used, just think of it philosophically. Of course teams move on after missing on a Hall of Fame QB, just as they move on from drafting a QB who busts. In the latter case, you lament the cost in money and time spend developing the QB, in the former you lament missing out on being in the Super Bowl hunt year in and year out. Which is the heavier price?
Using your logic, the Packers have won the SB every year since Rodgers was drafted.

Dang, now I have to go pull out the old Almanac and check.
RE: Picking a bad QB is far more regrettable than passing up a good one  
Bill L : 4/9/2018 3:00 pm : link
In comment 13906676 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
A bad QB will take down your franchise quickly. There are other options after passing up a great one that might be nearly as good and not ruin your team.

It's a false dichotomy though because there's no real way to be sure which one you are doing. You make the best call with the info you have and proceed from there.

I *LOVE* this post and you making it.

It simply reeks of uncertainty.
Other than the fact that Rosen is made of paper mache,  
Brown Recluse : 4/9/2018 3:01 pm : link
I like him just fine. I wouldn't be upset if the Giants drafted him.

This thread is silly.

Since 2005, there hasn't been a top ten quarterback selected  
the mike : 4/9/2018 3:06 pm : link
who has won a super bowl. In fact, Eli and Peyton Manning are the only two top ten drafted quarterbacks who have won a Super Bowl since Troy Aikman was drafted in 1989...

So in 28 drafts, that is 2 for 42; or better stated, 0 for 40 if you exclude the two Mannings... Has this just been a soft period for quarterbacks? Uh, I don't think so... Brady, Favre, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees etc. are all HOF quarterbacks not selected in the top ten...

Instead, it may be because the intense scrutiny and suffocating pressure of a young man being put in the most important position in the sporting world has become almost unbearable for anyone in today's relentless media environment... especially someone who is pre-anointed as the franchise savior before they have ever thrown a pass in the NFL...

Maybe if the Colts had passed on Andrew Luck in 2012 and supported Peyton Manning with Fletcher Cox or Luke Kuechly, the Colts and not the Broncos would have won a super bowl in 2015...



RE: Since 2005, there hasn't been a top ten quarterback selected  
the mike : 4/9/2018 3:24 pm : link
In comment 13906693 the mike said:
Quote:
who has won a super bowl. In fact, Eli and Peyton Manning are the only two top ten drafted quarterbacks who have won a Super Bowl since Troy Aikman was drafted in 1989...

So in 28 drafts, that is 2 for 42; or better stated, 0 for 40 if you exclude the two Mannings... Has this just been a soft period for quarterbacks? Uh, I don't think so... Brady, Favre, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees etc. are all HOF quarterbacks not selected in the top ten...

Instead, it may be because the intense scrutiny and suffocating pressure of a young man being put in the most important position in the sporting world has become almost unbearable for anyone in today's relentless media environment... especially someone who is pre-anointed as the franchise savior before they have ever thrown a pass in the NFL...

Maybe if the Colts had passed on Andrew Luck in 2012 and supported Peyton Manning with Fletcher Cox or Luke Kuechly, the Colts and not the Broncos would have won a super bowl in 2015...




It was just brought to my attention that Trent Dilfer was drafted in the top ten in 1994 so I stand corrected - the correct stats are 3 for 42 top ten super bowl winning quarterbacks and 1 for 40 "non-Mannings"...
RE: Since 2005, there hasn't been a top ten quarterback selected  
Brown Recluse : 4/9/2018 3:29 pm : link
In comment 13906693 the mike said:
Quote:
who has won a super bowl. In fact, Eli and Peyton Manning are the only two top ten drafted quarterbacks who have won a Super Bowl since Troy Aikman was drafted in 1989...

So in 28 drafts, that is 2 for 42; or better stated, 0 for 40 if you exclude the two Mannings... Has this just been a soft period for quarterbacks? Uh, I don't think so... Brady, Favre, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees etc. are all HOF quarterbacks not selected in the top ten...

Instead, it may be because the intense scrutiny and suffocating pressure of a young man being put in the most important position in the sporting world has become almost unbearable for anyone in today's relentless media environment... especially someone who is pre-anointed as the franchise savior before they have ever thrown a pass in the NFL...

Maybe if the Colts had passed on Andrew Luck in 2012 and supported Peyton Manning with Fletcher Cox or Luke Kuechly, the Colts and not the Broncos would have won a super bowl in 2015...




knowledge drop!
Guys  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2018 3:33 pm : link
but Josh Rosen....
RE: RE: Picking a bad QB is far more regrettable than passing up a good one  
Heisenberg : 4/9/2018 3:35 pm : link
In comment 13906679 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13906676 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


A bad QB will take down your franchise quickly. There are other options after passing up a great one that might be nearly as good and not ruin your team.

It's a false dichotomy though because there's no real way to be sure which one you are doing. You make the best call with the info you have and proceed from there.


I *LOVE* this post and you making it.

It simply reeks of uncertainty.


This are incredibly uncertain times. :)
what if you're Dallas and  
giants#1 : 4/9/2018 3:39 pm : link
you drafted Ware over Rodgers? Do you think they regret that decision knowing they had to have the aging Bledsoe start with the unknown Romo backing him up?

RE: RE: RE: Picking a bad QB is far more regrettable than passing up a good one  
Bill L : 4/9/2018 3:39 pm : link
In comment 13906761 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
In comment 13906679 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13906676 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


A bad QB will take down your franchise quickly. There are other options after passing up a great one that might be nearly as good and not ruin your team.

It's a false dichotomy though because there's no real way to be sure which one you are doing. You make the best call with the info you have and proceed from there.


I *LOVE* this post and you making it.

It simply reeks of uncertainty.



This are incredibly uncertain times. :)

Then it's good to have principles.
What's funny about the OP is that it's described as J Russell vs AP  
Heisenberg : 4/9/2018 3:59 pm : link
But there's like 5 or so HOF caliber players in that draft.

I mean, Ronnie Brown is not as good as Rodgers, for sure. But he was at least a pro bowler. The Raiders passed up some really great players in that draft and took one of the biggest busts of all time.

Actually this is a great question...  
Jim in Tampa : 4/9/2018 4:35 pm : link
But unfortunately since Milton is the one asking, everyone is in attack mode thinking that it's just another Rosen thread.

My answer is that it's far more regrettable to pass on the great QB, than to choose a QB that busts. My guess though is that most posters who want a QB at 2 will agree with that premise, while those that don't will spin it to support their own, non-QB draft preference.

The question was supposed to make you think, but it just made everyone dig their heels in and restate their draft preference.
I think a wasted pick is much more damaging than a sub-optimal pick.  
Mad Mike : 4/9/2018 4:37 pm : link
Obviously letting a truly great player slip away past is regrettable, but if you at least got a good player of your own, I think that's far less regrettable than spending a high pick on a guy who never does anything.
RE: Actually this is a great question...  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2018 4:45 pm : link
In comment 13906866 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
But unfortunately since Milton is the one asking, everyone is in attack mode thinking that it's just another Rosen thread.

My answer is that it's far more regrettable to pass on the great QB, than to choose a QB that busts. My guess though is that most posters who want a QB at 2 will agree with that premise, while those that don't will spin it to support their own, non-QB draft preference.

The question was supposed to make you think, but it just made everyone dig their heels in and restate their draft preference.


I want to take a QB.

I answered his question based on the parameters he presented. Missing on Russell was way worse for the Raiders than all the teams who didnít take Rodgers (which also includes the Raiders).

If my math is correct, since Rodgers was drafted there were 2 teams that passed on him that won the Super Bowl. So yeah, that didnít hurt them too poorly.
The Draft truly can't get here  
montanagiant : 4/9/2018 4:45 pm : link
Soon enough
It IS just another Rosen thread...  
T-Bone : 4/9/2018 4:49 pm : link
it's just dressed up differently than the others.

And IMO the answer is obvious for the reasons already stated.. it's worse picking the bust. As has already been said, you missed out on the HoFer who knows... maybe you have a guy a tick below that. You draft a bust... especially at QB... it's a wasted pick.
Thank you, Jim in Tampa, for getting it  
Milton : 4/9/2018 5:12 pm : link
T-Bone and others...
Whether or not the guy I had in mind was Rosen or the QB of your choice is unimportant. The purpose of the thread was to approach the discussion we've been having for weeks, but from a different angle. Looking at it from the POV of Dave Gettleman fifteen years from now and knowing that he made a mistake. Which mistake would sting the most? Would it sting more to have selected [Fill In QB of your choice] only to see Barkley go on to have a Hall of Fame career or to choose Barkley and suffer through watching [Fill in QB of your choice] have a Hall of Fame career? I gave the examples from 2005 and 2007 because those were drafts in which a GM made a choice between the highest graded RB on his board and the highest graded QB and in each case the one that got away had a Hall of Fame career.
RE: It IS just another Rosen thread...  
Jim in Tampa : 4/9/2018 5:13 pm : link
In comment 13906890 T-Bone said:
Quote:
it's just dressed up differently than the others.

And IMO the answer is obvious for the reasons already stated.. it's worse picking the bust. As has already been said, you missed out on the HoFer who knows... maybe you have a guy a tick below that. You draft a bust... especially at QB... it's a wasted pick.


The only player in the 2005 (Aaron Rodgers) draft that I would describe as a "tick" below Rodgers would be DeMarcus Ware. Every other player drafted was several ticks below Rodgers, including the three RBs drafted in the first 5 picks who combined for just 5 total 1,000 yd seasons between them.

All the other players drafted in RD 1 that year are out of the league (except for Alex Smith) and most have been gone for at least 5 years.

Also, take a look at that first round in 2005 and read the list of the 22 teams that passed on Rodgers (Dallas did it twice). The majority of those teams have had on-going QB issues that would have been solved for more than a decade if they had taken Rodgers.

In Milton's example the missed opportunity cost of passing on Rodgers is far, far greater than blowing just one pick.
RE: Thank you, Jim in Tampa, for getting it  
T-Bone : 4/9/2018 5:17 pm : link
In comment 13906926 Milton said:
Quote:
T-Bone and others...
Whether or not the guy I had in mind was Rosen or the QB of your choice is unimportant. The purpose of the thread was to approach the discussion we've been having for weeks, but from a different angle. Looking at it from the POV of Dave Gettleman fifteen years from now and knowing that he made a mistake. Which mistake would sting the most? Would it sting more to have selected [Fill In QB of your choice] only to see Barkley go on to have a Hall of Fame career or to choose Barkley and suffer through watching [Fill in QB of your choice] have a Hall of Fame career? I gave the examples from 2005 and 2007 because those were drafts in which a GM made a choice between the highest graded RB on his board and the highest graded QB and in each case the one that got away had a Hall of Fame career.


I don't know Milt... I guess they'd both sting about the same for me. Either way you've missed out on a HoF player.

Still not getting your point.
RE: RE: It IS just another Rosen thread...  
T-Bone : 4/9/2018 5:20 pm : link
In comment 13906928 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 13906890 T-Bone said:


Quote:


it's just dressed up differently than the others.

And IMO the answer is obvious for the reasons already stated.. it's worse picking the bust. As has already been said, you missed out on the HoFer who knows... maybe you have a guy a tick below that. You draft a bust... especially at QB... it's a wasted pick.



The only player in the 2005 (Aaron Rodgers) draft that I would describe as a "tick" below Rodgers would be DeMarcus Ware. Every other player drafted was several ticks below Rodgers, including the three RBs drafted in the first 5 picks who combined for just 5 total 1,000 yd seasons between them.

All the other players drafted in RD 1 that year are out of the league (except for Alex Smith) and most have been gone for at least 5 years.

Also, take a look at that first round in 2005 and read the list of the 22 teams that passed on Rodgers (Dallas did it twice). The majority of those teams have had on-going QB issues that would have been solved for more than a decade if they had taken Rodgers.

In Milton's example the missed opportunity cost of passing on Rodgers is far, far greater than blowing just one pick.


Maybe it's just me because I'm still not seeing the point. So you and Milton are suggesting to just pick a QB just because it would supposedly hurt more to miss picking a HoF QB over a HoF RB?
Milton  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2018 5:22 pm : link
you are always the smartest guy in the room. Iíd like you better if you just admitted itís a ďdifferent way to look at whether to draft RosenĒ than to dress it up he way you just did.

And just because 2 guys agreed with you doesnít mean my take or anyone elseís are wrong (or right for that matter).

I answered your question and you scolded me for doing so too literally. Thatís when I determined it wasnít an actual exercise but rather and agenda driven thread topic.
RE: RE: It IS just another Rosen thread...  
T-Bone : 4/9/2018 5:24 pm : link
In comment 13906928 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 13906890 T-Bone said:


Quote:


it's just dressed up differently than the others.

And IMO the answer is obvious for the reasons already stated.. it's worse picking the bust. As has already been said, you missed out on the HoFer who knows... maybe you have a guy a tick below that. You draft a bust... especially at QB... it's a wasted pick.



The only player in the 2005 (Aaron Rodgers) draft that I would describe as a "tick" below Rodgers would be DeMarcus Ware. Every other player drafted was several ticks below Rodgers, including the three RBs drafted in the first 5 picks who combined for just 5 total 1,000 yd seasons between them.

All the other players drafted in RD 1 that year are out of the league (except for Alex Smith) and most have been gone for at least 5 years.

Also, take a look at that first round in 2005 and read the list of the 22 teams that passed on Rodgers (Dallas did it twice). The majority of those teams have had on-going QB issues that would have been solved for more than a decade if they had taken Rodgers.

In Milton's example the missed opportunity cost of passing on Rodgers is far, far greater than blowing just one pick.


And of course most of those players are out of the league 13-14 years later... the average career for an NFL player spans about 3 to 4 years. So using that to prove some kind of point doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

And lastly, this is assuming the QB you pick turns into a HoFer. What if... let's just say Josh Rosen for the sake of argument *grin*... turns out to be a bust? But Barkley goes on to have a HoF career? Does that help or hurt whatever point you guys are trying to make?
Thereís been more Super Bowls wins to teams  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2018 5:24 pm : link
that passed on Rodgers than Super Bowls to the team that drafted him. If we are really going to go by this 1 player sample size, than even he doesnít justify it.
RE: RE: RE: It IS just another Rosen thread...  
Jim in Tampa : 4/9/2018 5:30 pm : link
In comment 13906933 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 13906928 Jim in Tampa said:


Quote:


In comment 13906890 T-Bone said:


Quote:


it's just dressed up differently than the others.

And IMO the answer is obvious for the reasons already stated.. it's worse picking the bust. As has already been said, you missed out on the HoFer who knows... maybe you have a guy a tick below that. You draft a bust... especially at QB... it's a wasted pick.



The only player in the 2005 (Aaron Rodgers) draft that I would describe as a "tick" below Rodgers would be DeMarcus Ware. Every other player drafted was several ticks below Rodgers, including the three RBs drafted in the first 5 picks who combined for just 5 total 1,000 yd seasons between them.

All the other players drafted in RD 1 that year are out of the league (except for Alex Smith) and most have been gone for at least 5 years.

Also, take a look at that first round in 2005 and read the list of the 22 teams that passed on Rodgers (Dallas did it twice). The majority of those teams have had on-going QB issues that would have been solved for more than a decade if they had taken Rodgers.

In Milton's example the missed opportunity cost of passing on Rodgers is far, far greater than blowing just one pick.



Maybe it's just me because I'm still not seeing the point. So you and Milton are suggesting to just pick a QB just because it would supposedly hurt more to miss picking a HoF QB over a HoF RB?


OK. I think Milton is really talking about the missed opportunity cost more than anything else, so perhaps you can consider this non-football example instead.

Let's say years ago you had a lot of money to invest and for some reason you had to choose between two stocks.

You ended up passing on the Apple IPO and instead invested all your money in another stock. Whether that other stock did OK or completely tanked causing you to lose all your money, I guarantee the story you'd be repeating to anyone who'd listen for the rest of your natural life was what a fool you were to pass on the Apple IPO.

That's the missed opportunity cost that Milton is referring to. It really does hurt a LOT more than simply choosing one bad draft pick or stock
Ok....  
T-Bone : 4/9/2018 5:33 pm : link
so what if that 'other' stock that I put all my money into turned out to be IBM?
...  
christian : 4/9/2018 5:55 pm : link
There are so many missing factors in this scenario, but all things equal the Raiders regret it more (and the Giants should pick a QB).

The single biggest factor is how much the Raiders paid Russel, and how many years they paid him to do nothing. That reality has changed since that draft.

As stated teams who skipped AR have won Super Bowls. The Raiders had a decade of ineptitude with/following Russel.

Fast forward to today, and the cost of league average QB play is nearing the % of cap allocation of what an early pick cost then.

The reward of getting a cost-controlled QB for 5 years is beyond the risk now.
RE: Milton  
Milton : 4/9/2018 6:00 pm : link
In comment 13906938 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
you are always the smartest guy in the room. Iíd like you better if you just admitted itís a ďdifferent way to look at whether to draft RosenĒ than to dress it up he way you just did.
Like the Egret's Regret, the aim was to ask people to look at the question "QB or not QB" from the rearview mirror. I over-complicated it by giving examples of what I meant, but it just sent people off track.

p.s.--Why do I assume I'm the smartest in the room?
"Ha!"--Milton - ( New Window )
If I invest all my money in Russell  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2018 6:12 pm : link
I wonít have any money left to invest in anything else because itís all gone. If I miss out on Apple I still can invest elsewhere, still possibly hitting on another stock.
and plenty of people  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2018 6:15 pm : link
who missed out on Apple went on to invest elsewhere and get filthy rich.
RE: The JaMarcus Russell player was easily the biggest blunder  
FStubbs : 4/9/2018 6:22 pm : link
In comment 13906590 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
because he was never any good. At least Ronnie Brown was a good back for a while.

Neither the Raiders or Dolphins got a franchise player, but a least the Dolphins got something.


I'll have you know Ronnie Brown has a higher career QB rating than Jamarcus Russell.
RE: Actually this is a great question...  
Bill L : 4/9/2018 6:27 pm : link
In comment 13906866 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
But unfortunately since Milton is the one asking, everyone is in attack mode thinking that it's just another Rosen thread.

My answer is that it's far more regrettable to pass on the great QB, than to choose a QB that busts. My guess though is that most posters who want a QB at 2 will agree with that premise, while those that don't will spin it to support their own, non-QB draft preference.

The question was supposed to make you think, but it just made everyone dig their heels in and restate their draft preference.


You know what is unconscionable bullshit about this post?

We are presented with two options. That implies that there are two different pov and since itís a free will life, opinions are, by right, equal.

Yet one choice is framed here as equitable agreement. The other is presented as contortional spin.

Propagandists everywhere would be proud.
RE: RE: Actually this is a great question...  
Jim in Tampa : 4/9/2018 6:29 pm : link
In comment 13907013 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13906866 Jim in Tampa said:


Quote:


But unfortunately since Milton is the one asking, everyone is in attack mode thinking that it's just another Rosen thread.

My answer is that it's far more regrettable to pass on the great QB, than to choose a QB that busts. My guess though is that most posters who want a QB at 2 will agree with that premise, while those that don't will spin it to support their own, non-QB draft preference.

The question was supposed to make you think, but it just made everyone dig their heels in and restate their draft preference.



You know what is unconscionable bullshit about this post?

We are presented with two options. That implies that there are two different pov and since itís a free will life, opinions are, by right, equal.

Yet one choice is framed here as equitable agreement. The other is presented as contortional spin.

Propagandists everywhere would be proud.


Another mediocre post Bill. Keep em coming!
If itís mediocre to restate what you actually said  
Bill L : 4/9/2018 6:30 pm : link
Then Iím cool with that.
Dear OP,  
DonQuixote : 4/9/2018 6:39 pm : link
It sucks to blow a draft pick one way or the other. I can see what you are trying to parse out but it is complete nonsense.
Yes this is another Rosen thread  
Dave on the UWS : 4/9/2018 6:56 pm : link
but it's also another " unless we are absolutely"positively, no question about it sure we are drafting an all-pro QB we should stay as far away as possible". It takes some balls to sit in the big chair and if you don't have the guts to make the call, then you ARE doomed to QB hell. Hopefully Gettleman has the guts to make the call. None of these 4 are perfect. Prospects rarely are. Picking a QB is all about fit, faith and projection. If he's right, it's banzai time. If wrong he sets the organization back and probably fails as GM here.
The and it's NOT just about  
Dave on the UWS : 4/9/2018 7:13 pm : link
Winning a SB. Other than the 2 magic runs, this team has been out of the mix for just about a decade. You need a top flight QB to contend year after year.
The one assumption no one is addressing  
Gmanfandan : 4/10/2018 12:25 am : link
Is what if the team that takes the HOF QB doesn't bring him along correctly? Or doesn't have the surrounding team? Or he suffers a freak career ending injury? Could Ryan Leaf have been a 12 year 3 time all pro if the Giants had taken him at 24? Or Indy as the first pick? Lots of stories make it sound like SD was partly to blame with how he viewed the NFL and his career. Aaron Rodgers gets passed over 23 times... does he become the same player if he goes 1 and Alex Smith goes 24? Does Tom Brady become the GOAT if he goes in round 2? The right answer is "we don't know"

No way should you be upset you passed on the HOFer - if you DID draft him... he may not have been the HOFer.

I still want Barkley at 2 - but find it less likely we'll go that way. Darnold has bust written all over him - his release has a Tebow-like wind up to it. Rosen is likely the best QB to come out of this draft, but I really don't want another 10 years of an immobile pocket passer - call it personal preference. Mayfield fits the bill but oh boy his choices in his off field life leave a lot to be desired.
RE: The one assumption no one is addressing  
the mike : 4/10/2018 9:33 am : link
In comment 13907320 Gmanfandan said:
Quote:
Is what if the team that takes the HOF QB doesn't bring him along correctly? Or doesn't have the surrounding team? Or he suffers a freak career ending injury? Could Ryan Leaf have been a 12 year 3 time all pro if the Giants had taken him at 24? Or Indy as the first pick? Lots of stories make it sound like SD was partly to blame with how he viewed the NFL and his career. Aaron Rodgers gets passed over 23 times... does he become the same player if he goes 1 and Alex Smith goes 24? Does Tom Brady become the GOAT if he goes in round 2? The right answer is "we don't know"

No way should you be upset you passed on the HOFer - if you DID draft him... he may not have been the HOFer.

I still want Barkley at 2 - but find it less likely we'll go that way. Darnold has bust written all over him - his release has a Tebow-like wind up to it. Rosen is likely the best QB to come out of this draft, but I really don't want another 10 years of an immobile pocket passer - call it personal preference. Mayfield fits the bill but oh boy his choices in his off field life leave a lot to be desired.


Exactly right... Each of the top four quarterbacks have flaws that increase the likelihood of a bust... Darnold's turnover propensity, Allen's accuracy, Rosen's durability, Mayfield's height and character... None of them are in the "Andrew Luck Can't Miss" category - and, oh by the way, you would have to say that after six years, Luck has indeed "missed" if you consider a Super Bowl win the objective of a top ten draft franchise quarterback... Listening to his press conference yesterday had to be disconcerting to Colts fans who may now be wondering why they traded back with the Jets...
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take  
jlukes : 4/10/2018 10:51 am : link

- Wayne Gretsky
- Michael Scott
RE: RE: The JaMarcus Russell player was easily the biggest blunder  
Brown Recluse : 4/10/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 13907009 FStubbs said:
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In comment 13906590 Brown Recluse said:


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because he was never any good. At least Ronnie Brown was a good back for a while.

Neither the Raiders or Dolphins got a franchise player, but a least the Dolphins got something.



I'll have you know Ronnie Brown has a higher career QB rating than Jamarcus Russell.


Hahaha.
RE: Thank you, Jim in Tampa, for getting it  
giants#1 : 4/10/2018 11:01 am : link
In comment 13906926 Milton said:
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T-Bone and others...
Whether or not the guy I had in mind was Rosen or the QB of your choice is unimportant. The purpose of the thread was to approach the discussion we've been having for weeks, but from a different angle. Looking at it from the POV of Dave Gettleman fifteen years from now and knowing that he made a mistake. Which mistake would sting the most? Would it sting more to have selected [Fill In QB of your choice] only to see Barkley go on to have a Hall of Fame career or to choose Barkley and suffer through watching [Fill in QB of your choice] have a Hall of Fame career? I gave the examples from 2005 and 2007 because those were drafts in which a GM made a choice between the highest graded RB on his board and the highest graded QB and in each case the one that got away had a Hall of Fame career.


1. As several 'insiders' have stated, it may not be Barkley if they don't go QB at #2. Chubb is definitely in play due to the high value the Giants FO puts on pass rushers (probably 2nd most critical position to them after QB). So why not answer my earlier question regarding Ware vs Rodgers?

2. A lot of regrets also have to deal with how the decision making went down. Is his 'gut' (and film review) telling him that Eli is toast and that he needs to draft a replacement? Is his gut telling him that Barkley is Faulk+? And finally, does he go against his to fill a need?
RE: RE: RE: It IS just another Rosen thread...  
giants#1 : 4/10/2018 11:03 am : link
In comment 13906940 T-Bone said:
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And lastly, this is assuming the QB you pick turns into a HoFer. What if... let's just say Josh Rosen for the sake of argument *grin*... turns out to be a bust? But Barkley goes on to have a HoF career? Does that help or hurt whatever point you guys are trying to make?


You can stick with that same draft. What if you end up drafting Alex Smith, who's made a nice career for himself, over HOF Ware?
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