Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

Does anyone on this board realize

NYSports1 : 4/11/2018 2:30 pm
The most vital position to sustain a culture of winning football for an era? I keep seeing dumb people claim that getting the Bills to give us those picks for players who might be starters to reserves and bust and pass on a qb at #2 that will bridge the gap between Eli and the next Dave brown era.

I do not want to hear one beep about Davis Freaking Webb and his Youtube clips...If you are a smart football person you know that a new gm,hc combo want their own stamp on the team that starts with the QB they draft. Davis Webb is a Jerry pick and now all of a sudden you guys want to see him get a shot when all you do is bash the Jerry picks?

There is nothing outside of the Bills given us 4 #1 pick and 2 second round picks that I will consider moving for that #2 pick

You have no team unless you have the QB position figured out

I do not want to hear Nick Foles, Case Keenum types can win

Those are short samples that do not translate for long term success.

The Giants will more than likely not sniff the top 5 of the draft for the next decade and we will have to trade a kings ransom to move up in the future that is if a team is dumb enough to not take a qb if they need one.

This Giants team is not a win now team, you need to stop thinking that it is because is not. The Giants need to start building for the future with the second pick and use the other picks to build the depth.

Stop trying to extend Eli's carrer and perception that Daivs Webb is going to be as good or better than the 4 this year
Hey i hear ya man.  
The Dude : 4/11/2018 2:31 pm : link
But theres hundreds of the same take on this 1st page alone.
RE: Hey i hear ya man.  
T-Bone : 4/11/2018 2:31 pm : link
In comment 13909548 The Dude said:
Quote:
But theres hundreds of the same take on this 1st page alone.


Exactly.
Get it?  
dep026 : 4/11/2018 2:32 pm : link
Got it?

GOOD!!!!!
And actually... I don't 'hear' him...  
T-Bone : 4/11/2018 2:32 pm : link
but that doesn't stop him from posting the exact same thing that's been posted dozens of other times on this site over the past few weeks.
NYSports1  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/11/2018 2:32 pm : link
Except you are making an assumption that the Giants have one of the quarterbacks ranked as a top 10 player.

They may not.

But you don't seem to be able to accept that possibility.

They may. They may not.
The giants  
jtgiants : 4/11/2018 2:33 pm : link
Don t agree w you. They want to win now. Keeping eli, signing solder, trading for ogletree. They don't buy your narrative
the point you are missing  
UConn4523 : 4/11/2018 2:33 pm : link
is whether or not DG like a QB enough to draft them at 2. I happen to think he likely does, but there's no way to know for sure. We shouldn't be taking a QB at 2 just to take one.
Do you  
Beezer : 4/11/2018 2:33 pm : link
realize ...
Link - ( New Window )
Only  
thomasa510 : 4/11/2018 2:33 pm : link
Only agree if the Giants think the qb options on the board are the franchise type. If not, then you trade and accumulate picks.

If the giants feel a franchise qb is available at #2 then they should take him.
NYSports1  
Big Blue '56 : 4/11/2018 2:40 pm : link
Quote:


I do not want to hear one beep about Davis Freaking Webb and his Youtube clips...If you are a smart football person you know that a new gm,hc combo want their own stamp on the team that starts with the QB they draft. Davis Webb is a Jerry pick and now all of a sudden you guys want to see him get a shot when all you do is bash the Jerry picks?

There is nothing outside of the Bills given us 4 #1 pick and 2 second round picks that I will consider moving for that #2 pick



Firstly, NONE OF US know anything about what the Giants think of Webb moving forward. Also, do many here NOT get their opinions off of YouTube clips as it pertains to the current crop of potential QBs who are expected to go high?
Do You Need A QB to be Successful?  
Jim in NH : 4/11/2018 2:41 pm : link
Duh! Obviously!

The issue is, do you need to pick that QB with a top 5 (or 10, or whatever) draft pick when you have many other needs at critical positions.

My answer, having looked at the data and having posted it here many times, is, no, you can get a 10-year franchise QB anywhere in the draft, and that who does the picking is much, MUCH more important than where you pick.

NYSports1 said "I do not want to hear Nick Foles, Case Keenum types can win"

OK. What about Joe Montana? Could he win? What about Aaron Rodgers? Can he win? Can Drew Brees win? Can Russell Wilson win?

I won't even mention Giselle Bundchen's husband, because that would be unfair.

giants will most likely not sniff a top 5 pick for a decade  
sundayatone : 4/11/2018 2:42 pm : link
really?
I want to draft Rosen at 2  
Essex : 4/11/2018 2:45 pm : link
but if the guys who are paid to rate these players do not have them as franchise qbs, you just have to trust them and move in a different direction. I think if you grade them a franchise qb (meaning a top 1/3rd QB in this league) you have to take the qb at 2 based on position and Eli's need, but if you don't--you should not force a pick that you will regret. Just gather picks so you have buying capital in future years when you do think there is that type of qb.
RE: NYSports1  
GFAN52 : 4/11/2018 2:45 pm : link
In comment 13909552 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Except you are making an assumption that the Giants have one of the quarterbacks ranked as a top 10 player.

They may not.

But you don't seem to be able to accept that possibility.

They may. They may not.


This, and I think Shurmur and DG are trying to balance win now and the future. Coming around to the Chubb as the more likely pick if Darnold is gone.
You don't win just because you have a good QB  
AnnapolisMike : 4/11/2018 2:46 pm : link
And you don't lose because you don't have a good QB. The Giants are not screwed if they don't take a QB this year, nor are they guaranteed success if they do. Webb should not be thrown aside just because he was drafted by Reese. The same scouting department that was in place the past several years....is largely still in place less the two guys at the top. If the information that Reese was getting was crap....the information DG is getting is probably more of the same crap. Hopefully DG processes crap a little better than Reese.

Thank you for sharing  
Reb8thVA : 4/11/2018 2:46 pm : link
the Gospel truth!

You must be a genius!

Praise the Lord!
I love these types of threads where the OP wants everyone  
figgy2989 : 4/11/2018 2:47 pm : link
To think his opinion makes him the smartest person on the board.
Everyone agrees  
Sy'56 : 4/11/2018 2:51 pm : link
if the QB meets the grade, you take him.

But do not force it.
You post  
HoodieGelo : 4/11/2018 2:52 pm : link
waaaaay too much regarding Eli/Webb/not taking a QB with the #2 pick.

It's like...a creepy obsession.
RE: NYSports1  
Victor in CT : 4/11/2018 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13909552 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Except you are making an assumption that the Giants have one of the quarterbacks ranked as a top 10 player.

They may not.

But you don't seem to be able to accept that possibility.

They may. They may not.


THANK YOU!!
and do we really need another "they have to take a QB" post?  
Victor in CT : 4/11/2018 3:06 pm : link
jeez enough already.
RE: Everyone agrees  
UberAlias : 4/11/2018 3:07 pm : link
In comment 13909588 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
if the QB meets the grade, you take him.

But do not force it.
This. Look, Iím in the camp that thinks a couple of these QBs are going to be very good players, but opinions are all over the spectrum. If none of them grade out, then go get a blue chip player at some other spot or trade out to someone for a truckload of picks. There are options, but the one thing they canít do is force a pick on a mediocre player.
Having good young players in rookie contracts is a good thing  
Go Terps : 4/11/2018 3:10 pm : link
To be able to add six such players outside of our regular pool of picks would be a huge advantage for the next 4-5 years. If the Buffalo trade is a real option the Giants should do it.

If we believe in Gettleman's ability to evaluate college talent we should be arming him with as many picks as possible at every available opportunity.
well..  
family progtitioner : 4/11/2018 3:11 pm : link
the Giants are not a fan run democracy, DG is the king. If the king says this years's QBs are not worth the 2nd pick then let it be written, let it be done.
RE: Everyone agrees  
mattyblue : 4/11/2018 3:23 pm : link
In comment 13909588 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
if the QB meets the grade, you take him.

But do not force it.


I think the issue is that a lot of people donít want a QB regardless. Looking forward to your QB reviews Sy, when can we expect them? Thank you for all the time you take with sharing your grades.
RE: NYSports1  
bradshaw44 : 4/11/2018 3:26 pm : link
In comment 13909552 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Except you are making an assumption that the Giants have one of the quarterbacks ranked as a top 10 player.

They may not.

But you don't seem to be able to accept that possibility.

They may. They may not.


Why is this so hard to grasp? You don't just pick a guy at 2 because he has QB next to his name. It's that simple. These personnel guys get to work these guys out privately and if they don't see or hear what they like they aren't just going to take them because that's where good QB's are picked. It's really not that difficult.
RE: I love these types of threads where the OP wants everyone  
Rocky369 : 4/11/2018 3:28 pm : link
In comment 13909578 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
To think his opinion makes him the smartest person on the board.
second sentence in and everyone else is a dumbass. didn't this guy claim to be associated with an online site?
RE: And actually... I don't 'hear' him...  
GiantsLaw : 4/11/2018 3:31 pm : link
In comment 13909551 T-Bone said:
Drafting for need...  
Nysportsfn13 : 4/11/2018 3:38 pm : link
gets you Erek Flowers and Eli Apple.
Of all of the possible outcomes, the very worst By Far...  
the mike : 4/11/2018 3:45 pm : link
is investing the time and energy in a quarterback with the number two pick who turns out to be a bust. Let's be clear - Dave Brown, who I agree led us like Virgil through the darkest circles of quarterback hell, was a number one pick in the supplemental draft. This idea that you must be great if you are a "top of the draft quarterback" is just silly.

The recent grading on all of these quarterbacks is underwhelming at best - Darnold is the highest grade, but it is miles below Andrew Luck levels. So unless Gettleman sees something the scouting world is missing, there is no reason to take this extraordinary risk now... Especially if the opportunity cost is a player like Barkley or a haul of picks like the Buffalo trade current being discussed on BBI...
It's pretty clear to me  
Mike from Ohio : 4/11/2018 3:48 pm : link
that most of you do not hear the OP. He knows better than all of you, so just listen to him!
I agree with the general point the OP is making...  
DonQuixote : 4/11/2018 3:49 pm : link
let's just assume for a moment that the Bills are willing to give up 6 or so picks to get into a position to draft a top QB. Their desperation shows how valuable this pick is. If we take those picks, we might very well put ourselves in that very same position, packaging those very same picks to move up next year ... treading water.

Now obviously, if none of these QBs are with a top ten pick, then you absolutely benefit by trading out of the top ten and have someone else misguidedly give up their picks to move into the top ten...

I just have a tough time thinking that there are not several QBs in this class that have top ten value.
One would normally have to troll...  
BamaBlue : 4/11/2018 4:10 pm : link
a Ralph Vacchiano column for this kind of brilliance.
RE: Do You Need A QB to be Successful?  
One Man Thrill Ride : 4/11/2018 4:18 pm : link
In comment 13909567 Jim in NH said:
Quote:
Duh! Obviously!

The issue is, do you need to pick that QB with a top 5 (or 10, or whatever) draft pick when you have many other needs at critical positions.

My answer, having looked at the data and having posted it here many times, is, no, you can get a 10-year franchise QB anywhere in the draft, and that who does the picking is much, MUCH more important than where you pick.

NYSports1 said "I do not want to hear Nick Foles, Case Keenum types can win"

OK. What about Joe Montana? Could he win? What about Aaron Rodgers? Can he win? Can Drew Brees win? Can Russell Wilson win?

I won't even mention Giselle Bundchen's husband, because that would be unfair.


Jim in North Haverbrook.

THRILL LOVES YOUR STYLE BROOOOOO.

You crunched the data! Looked at the results. Difference-making QBs can be found anywhere in the draft. See? Here's 6 guys since 1979. YOU SEE?? I rest my case!

The problem: by definition, QBs outside the 1st round have to be flawed. Otherwise multiple teams wouldn't pass on them multiple times.

Stated differently, undervalued future-successful QBs exist, but they are not easy to find!

if The Org sees the next Joe Montana, they have to assume that all 31 other teams have missed on their eval. Otherwise, wtf are they doing waiting until the 3rd round to pick him? Letting another smart team team swoop in and steal the future HOF!!

So here's your assignment. You declared yourself the data guy. Aaron Rodgers was drafted 24th overall. Let's use that as the starting point in our data set. List all the QBs drafted after pick 24. Start in 1979, the year Joe Montana was picked. Look at that, Thrill is generously allowing your to begin your research with two GOATs. Altogether, almost 40 years worth of QB draft classes. Then, go ahead and identify all the successful QBs (i.e.multi-year starters) that were outside the top-23. Divide the number of success stories into the total number of QBs drafted and ...dear god... we have a probability!

If the probability of finding a good QB outside the top-23 is greater than 10%, The Thrill Ride will personally (through an assistant) buy you lunch at your favorite italian restaurant (Sbarro's?).

"Who does the picking"

This too is a critical point. Smart decision-makers find good players. Let's quickly look at the non-1st round QBs drafted by NYG while Gettleman was an exec:

Jesse Palmer
Andre Woodson
Rhett Bomar

NYG also drafted Ryan Nassib three months after Gettleman left for Carolina.

What about the best in the biz, Belichick? He found Brady, didn't he? And also Jimmy G! What other QBs has Belichick picked?

Jacoby Brisset
RYan Mallet
Zac Robinson
Kevin O'Connell
Matt Cassell
Kliff Kingsbury
Rohan Davey


Not exactly a great batting average, even for the best of the best.

RE: RE: And actually... I don't 'hear' him...  
T-Bone : 4/11/2018 4:44 pm : link
In comment 13909673 GiantsLaw said:
Quote:
In comment 13909551 T-Bone said:


LOL!
I said before, I believe this qb  
micky : 4/11/2018 4:58 pm : link
has at least 2 franchise qb's

which ones are? Only the ones doing the work on them have the greatest idea of who or whom.

Hoping the giants can hit on that franchise QB, if it is even in their thinking, at 2.
RE: I said before, I believe this qb class  
micky : 4/11/2018 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13909836 micky said:
Quote:
has at least 2 franchise qb's

which ones are? Only the ones doing the work on them have the greatest idea of who or whom.

Hoping the giants can hit on that franchise QB, if it is even in their thinking, at 2.
To the OP:  
mrvax : 4/11/2018 5:11 pm : link
99% of the posters on this board and the entire NY Giants staff knows the importance of a QB. The only way the Giants do not grab one is if the Giants don't see what they need to see.
Is it so hard for you to understand that?

Sit back, relax and allow DG to speak to us fans post draft to find out their thinking. I trust them more than you or I.



Davis Webb might as well be dead  
SHO'NUFF : 4/11/2018 6:20 pm : link
because so many people are already writing him off before he throws 1 NFL regular season pass.
RE: The giants  
Vanzetti : 4/11/2018 7:12 pm : link
In comment 13909553 jtgiants said:
Quote:
Don t agree w you. They want to win now. Keeping eli, signing solder, trading for ogletree. They don't buy your narrative


If they want to win now, why did they take on 15 million in dead money for JPP? That is clearly a move to
Clear FUTURE cap space

RE: Do You Need A QB to be Successful?  
DonnieD89 : 4/11/2018 8:10 pm : link
In comment 13909567 Jim in NH said:
Quote:
Duh! Obviously!

The issue is, do you need to pick that QB with a top 5 (or 10, or whatever) draft pick when you have many other needs at critical positions.

My answer, having looked at the data and having posted it here many times, is, no, you can get a 10-year franchise QB anywhere in the draft, and that who does the picking is much, MUCH more important than where you pick.

NYSports1 said "I do not want to hear Nick Foles, Case Keenum types can win"

OK. What about Joe Montana? Could he win? What about Aaron Rodgers? Can he win? Can Drew Brees win? Can Russell Wilson win?

I won't even mention Giselle Bundchen's husband, because that would be unfair.


Kurt freaking Warner got drafted out of a grocery store. How bout that?
Nobody gets to draft a franchise QB.  
Motley Two : 4/11/2018 8:22 pm : link
You get to select what looks to be the healthiest seed and the rest of the team, coaching, scheme & culture is the garden where you get to plant that seed. Franchise QB don't grow out of bad soil.

RE: The giants  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/11/2018 8:24 pm : link
In comment 13909553 jtgiants said:
Quote:
Don t agree w you. They want to win now. Keeping eli, signing solder, trading for ogletree. They don't buy your narrative

Those are all the same moves you'd make if you were about to draft a QB.

What you wouldn't do is change defensive schemes; trade JPP and eat a large cap hit this year in the process (in exchange for cap space next year); and cut DRC in the final year of a very reasonable contract.

I'd say the evidence is slightly more in favor of a protracted (at least compared to your expectations) rebuild. You don't agree with him. But there's nothing to suggest that the Giants agree with you.
RE: Do You Need A QB to be Successful?  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/11/2018 8:29 pm : link
In comment 13909567 Jim in NH said:
Quote:
Duh! Obviously!

The issue is, do you need to pick that QB with a top 5 (or 10, or whatever) draft pick when you have many other needs at critical positions.

My answer, having looked at the data and having posted it here many times, is, no, you can get a 10-year franchise QB anywhere in the draft, and that who does the picking is much, MUCH more important than where you pick.

NYSports1 said "I do not want to hear Nick Foles, Case Keenum types can win"

OK. What about Joe Montana? Could he win? What about Aaron Rodgers? Can he win? Can Drew Brees win? Can Russell Wilson win?

I won't even mention Giselle Bundchen's husband, because that would be unfair.

Your data has been flawed despite your repeated attempts to present it. You continue to ignore the fact that there are 5x as many QBs drafted outside the first round than within. So why don't we talk about the percentage of failures from the 2nd round on?

You won't respond, because you never do, but you're still wrong. So just sit there and be wrong. But please, stop polluting threads with your faulty data analysis.
Things that make you go uhhh  
Chocco : 4/11/2018 8:38 pm : link
I agree with that if the QB grades out you take him perspective. The thing that is a little unnerving is that the Giants are sitting at 2 and there is no QB that in any way would make me feel comfortable with them trading up to 1. I was OK with moving 4 to 1 to get Eli. Not that my opinion matters, I just wish I had a little more confidence that one of these guys was "The Guy".
SportsNY  
Reale01 : 4/11/2018 9:36 pm : link
Would you trade Darnold for the following

Nelson or Chubb
Two #2 picks
One #3 pick
and a 2019 #1?

Also, as I recall, Nick Foles was a winning superbowl QB. Case Keenum got to the NFC Championship.
RE: SportsNY  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/11/2018 11:38 pm : link
In comment 13910274 Reale01 said:
Quote:
Would you trade Darnold for the following

Nelson or Chubb
Two #2 picks
One #3 pick
and a 2019 #1?

Also, as I recall, Nick Foles was a winning superbowl QB. Case Keenum got to the NFC Championship.

Would you trade Carson Wentz for the following:

Chance Warmack or Dion Jordan (or Trent Richardson)
Marvin Austin and Reuben Randle
Damontre Moore
And Eli Apple (or Ereck Flowers)?

Also, as I recall, Carson Wentz was recently the #2 pick in the draft.

How does anyone not realize how easy it is to work this argument both ways?
RE: RE: Do You Need A QB to be Successful?  
DonQuixote : 4/12/2018 4:19 am : link
In comment 13909746 One Man Thrill Ride said:
Quote:
In comment 13909567 Jim in NH said:


Quote:


Duh! Obviously!

The issue is, do you need to pick that QB with a top 5 (or 10, or whatever) draft pick when you have many other needs at critical positions.

My answer, having looked at the data and having posted it here many times, is, no, you can get a 10-year franchise QB anywhere in the draft, and that who does the picking is much, MUCH more important than where you pick.

NYSports1 said "I do not want to hear Nick Foles, Case Keenum types can win"

OK. What about Joe Montana? Could he win? What about Aaron Rodgers? Can he win? Can Drew Brees win? Can Russell Wilson win?

I won't even mention Giselle Bundchen's husband, because that would be unfair.




Jim in North Haverbrook.

THRILL LOVES YOUR STYLE BROOOOOO.

You crunched the data! Looked at the results. Difference-making QBs can be found anywhere in the draft. See? Here's 6 guys since 1979. YOU SEE?? I rest my case!

The problem: by definition, QBs outside the 1st round have to be flawed. Otherwise multiple teams wouldn't pass on them multiple times.

Stated differently, undervalued future-successful QBs exist, but they are not easy to find!

if The Org sees the next Joe Montana, they have to assume that all 31 other teams have missed on their eval. Otherwise, wtf are they doing waiting until the 3rd round to pick him? Letting another smart team team swoop in and steal the future HOF!!

So here's your assignment. You declared yourself the data guy. Aaron Rodgers was drafted 24th overall. Let's use that as the starting point in our data set. List all the QBs drafted after pick 24. Start in 1979, the year Joe Montana was picked. Look at that, Thrill is generously allowing your to begin your research with two GOATs. Altogether, almost 40 years worth of QB draft classes. Then, go ahead and identify all the successful QBs (i.e.multi-year starters) that were outside the top-23. Divide the number of success stories into the total number of QBs drafted and ...dear god... we have a probability!

If the probability of finding a good QB outside the top-23 is greater than 10%, The Thrill Ride will personally (through an assistant) buy you lunch at your favorite italian restaurant (Sbarro's?).

"Who does the picking"

This too is a critical point. Smart decision-makers find good players. Let's quickly look at the non-1st round QBs drafted by NYG while Gettleman was an exec:

Jesse Palmer
Andre Woodson
Rhett Bomar

NYG also drafted Ryan Nassib three months after Gettleman left for Carolina.

What about the best in the biz, Belichick? He found Brady, didn't he? And also Jimmy G! What other QBs has Belichick picked?

Jacoby Brisset
RYan Mallet
Zac Robinson
Kevin O'Connell
Matt Cassell
Kliff Kingsbury
Rohan Davey


Not exactly a great batting average, even for the best of the best.


well said
Finding a franchise Qb is hard....  
George from PA : 4/12/2018 4:53 am : link
Certainly better chances with a top 5 pick but

Tim Couch
Akili Smith
That bust that went to Oakland
Jeff George
Ryan Leaf
Etc etc...

Some make it sound like it's a given picking QB @2 will be successful....it's not.

4 top guys....will all be studs like Eli, Rivers, Ben year?

No one knows for sure

Ryan Leaf  
Les in TO : 4/12/2018 5:43 am : link
Tim Couch Jamarcus Russell are three names that should give pause to the idea that the Giants have to take a QB. While picking second overall is hopefully rare they should not reach if they are not convinced a franchise QB is there
Would you trade  
Gmanfandan : 4/12/2018 6:21 am : link
Wade Wilson and/or Neil Lomax for Lawrence Taylor?

Those were the two best QB's to come out of the 1981 draft (neither in round 1)

Giants could have deemed Simms wasn't going to work and gone with Rich Campbell the first quarterback off the board at 6 (Dave Wilson went to the Saints in the supplemental draft in round 1)

I get it - different time - 13 RB's drafted in the first two rounds that year etc etc - but I'll take the "generational talent" any time. And that guy sure seems to be Barkley.
JtGiants  
joeinpa : 4/12/2018 8:13 am : link
Of course the Giants want to be as good as they can be next season, and improving the O line was a must.

But I hardly view that as a commitment to win now at the expense of the future.

Those moves will have no bearing on their decision to draft a quarterback.

I m pretty convinced they will, the position is too important and the value too great for them to pass on this opportunity.
Back to the Corner