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Davis Webb love on BBI??

firedbytheboss : 4/12/2018 10:01 am
There is one thing that I have learned from listening to Greg Cosell over the years. Teams tell you what they think of a player by how they use him. This is not my idea, it is Cosell's. And he is an astute observer of NFL team habits and an insightful analyst especially regarding the QB position.

What did the Giants do with Webb in 2017? They obviously didn't give him any offensive game snaps. When they benched Eli they gave those to Geno Smith. So in that regard they felt Webb couldn't beat out Geno Smith to see game action. That is a fairly big fucking deal. But ok maybe you want to say that the last Giants regime was dumb as dirt.

But what of the idea that Webb wasn't given any meaningful first team snaps in practice - if I am to understand what happened correctly. It means the kid wasn't anywhere near pro ready. So the past regime who drafted this kid, and had a lot invested in him, never felt at any point that his performance merited meaningful action. Put another way, he did not develop to earn action.

In some way he was behind. Maybe mentally. Maybe he couldnt see the pro game. Maybe it was too fast for him. If ever there was a season a rookie could get action in a game it was this season. I don't think the other excuses hold water.

Teams tell you how they regard a player by how they use them.

He was behind Geno Smith all year. If he was better than Smith he would have played. So I don't understand why the first round QB detractors insist that Webb is in the same pool as the 2018 QB prospects. Webb has already failed. Webb already has a huge demerit. And I think DG and PS will look at Webb's inability to beat out Geno or to put down meaningful first team practice reps as a black mark when considering what they should do with the #2 pick.

I just don't understand why guys on here are so willing to put the future of the franchise in the hands of a guy who didn't have the ability to beat out Geno in his first year. I'm fairly certain Rosen, Darnold and Mayfield, at least, could beat out Geno in year one.

Teams tell you how they regard a player by how they use them.
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Are we really judging Webb based on Ben McAdoo?  
nzyme : 4/12/2018 11:02 am : link
I'm not saying Webb is going to be great or he's going to be horrible. What I'm saying is lets wait for the new coaching staff to make their assessment.
RE: ...  
TMS : 4/12/2018 11:22 am : link
In comment 13910779 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Your thread title seems deliberately provocative.

Regardless, I don't know if you noticed but all of last year's decision makers were fired.
Good point Eric. That may be inidication they were incompetent in their evaluation of how to use Webb last year. As well as many other things. The poster obviously wants us to draft a QB at #2 and wants to denigrate Webb. We have a new regime who are eminently qualified to evaluate Webb and his potential.
Two years ago,  
oldog : 4/12/2018 11:50 am : link
Dallas had an early pick, a QB, Romo, with a very uncertain shelf life, QBs available in the draft, and the option of an early RB pick. So they went RB, waited and picked QB in third round; that year move from near bottom to near top. Giants face almost same choices, QB nearing end, 3rd rounder backup, and strong RB option, so we must decide, can Webb Dak it or not? We are in a better position than Dallas, since we've had Webb for a year to give him a nice close look. Also, Eli is far from as vulnerable as Romo was.
Again, McApoo fucked this up from DAY 1 of the Off season.  
ZogZerg : 4/12/2018 12:07 pm : link
He kept 4 QBs on the roster and played that stupid QB competition for #2. That was complete STUPIDITY and he killed any growth opprotuinty that Webb could have had last year being the #3 QB from the start.

That is why Webb is an Unkown at this point. McAPoo fucking sucks and fucked this up from day 1.
RE: RE: ...  
Beer Man : 4/12/2018 12:13 pm : link
In comment 13910952 TMS said:
Quote:
In comment 13910779 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Your thread title seems deliberately provocative.

Regardless, I don't know if you noticed but all of last year's decision makers were fired.

Good point Eric. That may be inidication they were incompetent in their evaluation of how to use Webb last year. As well as many other things. The poster obviously wants us to draft a QB at #2 and wants to denigrate Webb. We have a new regime who are eminently qualified to evaluate Webb and his potential.
+1
easy answer  
giantfan2000 : 4/12/2018 12:20 pm : link
mcadoo came from green bay
and saw how Rodgers was a QB project that didn't become starter until his third year
Rodgers barely saw the field during this time on the bench only coming in a handful of times when Farve was hurt or they were blowing out team.
RE: Two years ago,  
Victor in CT : 4/12/2018 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13911040 oldog said:
Quote:
Dallas had an early pick, a QB, Romo, with a very uncertain shelf life, QBs available in the draft, and the option of an early RB pick. So they went RB, waited and picked QB in third round; that year move from near bottom to near top. Giants face almost same choices, QB nearing end, 3rd rounder backup, and strong RB option, so we must decide, can Webb Dak it or not? We are in a better position than Dallas, since we've had Webb for a year to give him a nice close look. Also, Eli is far from as vulnerable as Romo was.


Exactly who on the Giants coaching staff has had a "nice close look" at Davis Webb?
Nice quibble Victor,  
oldog : 4/12/2018 12:51 pm : link
surely some interchange between the outgoing and incoming has occurred, and all Dallas had on Dak was his college tapes.
Davis Webb  
Joey in VA : 4/12/2018 1:00 pm : link
Was passed over by every team in the NFL at least twice, and 21 three times. If Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen or Josh Allen drop to the 2/3 of round 3 then yes Davis Webb is a better option than that one. He is NOT a better option than Darnold or Rosen, there may not be 5 teams who select before those two are gone.

So 87th or 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th or 5th. 87th????...or top 5. Right now, with no resume' in the NFL, that is what Davis Webb's value is compared to the top QBs in this draft.
RE: Two years ago,  
AnnapolisMike : 4/12/2018 1:03 pm : link
In comment 13911040 oldog said:
Quote:
Dallas had an early pick, a QB, Romo, with a very uncertain shelf life, QBs available in the draft, and the option of an early RB pick. So they went RB, waited and picked QB in third round; that year move from near bottom to near top. Giants face almost same choices, QB nearing end, 3rd rounder backup, and strong RB option, so we must decide, can Webb Dak it or not? We are in a better position than Dallas, since we've had Webb for a year to give him a nice close look. Also, Eli is far from as vulnerable as Romo was.


Dallas had a good OL in place. The Giants OL is average at best. The Giants can certainly hang their hats on Eli for another few years if they want. But at some point in the next one to three years will be forced to make a move at QB. Sitting at #2...if the QB they love is available...I think they have to pull the trigger.
RE: Davis Webb  
firedbytheboss : 4/12/2018 1:24 pm : link
In comment 13911274 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Was passed over by every team in the NFL at least twice, and 21 three times. If Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen or Josh Allen drop to the 2/3 of round 3 then yes Davis Webb is a better option than that one. He is NOT a better option than Darnold or Rosen, there may not be 5 teams who select before those two are gone.

So 87th or 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th or 5th. 87th????...or top 5. Right now, with no resume' in the NFL, that is what Davis Webb's value is compared to the top QBs in this draft.


yes I think you are 100% right. He did nothing in one full year to improve his perception. nothing. So DG and PS will rightly view Webb as nothing more than a 3rd round talent at this stage, while likely viewing the top-4 this year as first round talents.
RE: RE: Stop the non-sense  
firedbytheboss : 4/12/2018 1:27 pm : link
In comment 13910856 AnnapolisMike said:
Quote:
In comment 13910805 Beer Man said:


Quote:


From the time they drafted Webb, it was reported that Geno would be the #2 and that Webb's rookie season would be like a Red Shirt year for him to learn the fundamentals of an NFL QB. Geno got the start because Ben & Jerry were trying to save their jobs, and wanted everyone to believe Eli was the problem and that a more mobile QB was needed to fix the Giants O.



This....

The Giants brass made it clear from DAY ONE that Webb was going to sit and learn his first year. Webb was a project pick that may or may not amount to anything for the Giants. But I think the premise that the Giants made a mistake in not playing him last season is false. The coaching staff was trying to save their collective asses and Geno...not Webb was the player most likely to prove that Eli was the problem.


I think many Webb supporters have the Webb equation badly flipped. Players are expected to come in and show what they have and learn and improve. It is up to the player to show the team they must play. This is true all over the NFL. Half of what team's tell the fans is total bullshit. And the other half is just cover their ass talking points. Get real. How long do you think you wait for your third round project. Starting day 1 they have to show the team what they got. How coach-able they are. Tom Brady took the job.. Davis Webb didn't. He is still a third round project. He did nothing in year one to improve the perception.
RE: RE: ...  
firedbytheboss : 4/12/2018 1:34 pm : link
In comment 13910952 TMS said:
Quote:
In comment 13910779 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Your thread title seems deliberately provocative.

Regardless, I don't know if you noticed but all of last year's decision makers were fired.

Good point Eric. That may be inidication they were incompetent in their evaluation of how to use Webb last year. As well as many other things. The poster obviously wants us to draft a QB at #2 and wants to denigrate Webb. We have a new regime who are eminently qualified to evaluate Webb and his potential.


I am not out to denigrate Webb. Why would I have any presupposition on him. I wish he was great. But I think the way he was handled by the giants indicate he was not ready to play and he was so bad he got no practice reps. Cosell says this is how nfl teams work. You learn how they feel about a guy by how they use him. i think this is a much clearer indication of how they feel than people speculating about mcadoo being afraid and throwing geno smith out there. at some point mcadoo wasnt there and we still didnt see any webb and he still didnt get practice reps. all indications are that he was not ready to be a pro qb.
What If?  
Giantslifer : 4/12/2018 1:41 pm : link
Giants thought so highly of Webb that they didn't want to destroy him by playing him in that disaster of a season?
Better to subject disposable gene Smith to injury.
RE: What If?  
firedbytheboss : 4/12/2018 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13911404 Giantslifer said:
Quote:
Giants thought so highly of Webb that they didn't want to destroy him by playing him in that disaster of a season?
Better to subject disposable gene Smith to injury.


i seriously don't believe that is how nfl teams think. if you are ready, you play. it may be that the o-line was so bad that webb couldn't get ready, game too fast etc? but they made an investment in this guy and he never showed enough to progress. i believe that is how DG and PS will view it.

RE: RE: RE: Stop the non-sense  
SHO'NUFF : 4/12/2018 2:28 pm : link
In comment 13911364 firedbytheboss said:
Quote:
In comment 13910856 AnnapolisMike said:


Quote:


In comment 13910805 Beer Man said:


Quote:


From the time they drafted Webb, it was reported that Geno would be the #2 and that Webb's rookie season would be like a Red Shirt year for him to learn the fundamentals of an NFL QB. Geno got the start because Ben & Jerry were trying to save their jobs, and wanted everyone to believe Eli was the problem and that a more mobile QB was needed to fix the Giants O.



This....

The Giants brass made it clear from DAY ONE that Webb was going to sit and learn his first year. Webb was a project pick that may or may not amount to anything for the Giants. But I think the premise that the Giants made a mistake in not playing him last season is false. The coaching staff was trying to save their collective asses and Geno...not Webb was the player most likely to prove that Eli was the problem.



I think many Webb supporters have the Webb equation badly flipped. Players are expected to come in and show what they have and learn and improve. It is up to the player to show the team they must play. This is true all over the NFL. Half of what team's tell the fans is total bullshit. And the other half is just cover their ass talking points. Get real. How long do you think you wait for your third round project. Starting day 1 they have to show the team what they got. How coach-able they are. Tom Brady took the job.. Davis Webb didn't. He is still a third round project. He did nothing in year one to improve the perception.


Brady came in after an injury to Bledsoe, and managed the game safely for the Defense and kicker to win the championship. This, after one of the worst calls in football history vs. the Raiders. The rest, as they say, is history.
Let's take Victor's  
oldog : 4/12/2018 2:32 pm : link
point, and presume no information on Webb is available from outgoing staff. Even so there are players who practiced with him on both offense and defense for a full year. There is the pre-draft information that is comparable to what Dallas had on Dak. The voluntary practices are now underway. There is as much information available on Eli as could be wished, and he is likely to be durable, while it is uncertain if he will be effective. The running attack will be dependent on the Oline effectiveness unless there is strong talent.
Most importantly, it does seem that almost all aspects of the coaching last year were weak, including the development, motivation, training and deployment of players. As has been observed, when the team tanked, Webb should have been seriously tried out, that much is obvious.
Webb, though, is not the raw rookie third rounder, that Dak was. He did spend a whole year with the Giants, and has had the advantage of time with at least a "semi" professional team. He and Eli should now be carefully assessed, by a professional coaching team, and the best possible decision taken. If they mess up, it will be on them. But there is no reason why Webb should be discounted based on last year's incredibly inept mess up.
RE: Let's take Victor's  
firedbytheboss : 4/12/2018 2:49 pm : link
In comment 13911548 oldog said:
Quote:
point, and presume no information on Webb is available from outgoing staff. Even so there are players who practiced with him on both offense and defense for a full year. There is the pre-draft information that is comparable to what Dallas had on Dak. The voluntary practices are now underway. There is as much information available on Eli as could be wished, and he is likely to be durable, while it is uncertain if he will be effective. The running attack will be dependent on the Oline effectiveness unless there is strong talent.
Most importantly, it does seem that almost all aspects of the coaching last year were weak, including the development, motivation, training and deployment of players. As has been observed, when the team tanked, Webb should have been seriously tried out, that much is obvious.
Webb, though, is not the raw rookie third rounder, that Dak was. He did spend a whole year with the Giants, and has had the advantage of time with at least a "semi" professional team. He and Eli should now be carefully assessed, by a professional coaching team, and the best possible decision taken. If they mess up, it will be on them. But there is no reason why Webb should be discounted based on last year's incredibly inept mess up.


well i agree that if DG and PS now have an opportunity to assess Webb, then that experience should figure most prominently in the evaluation. The point of my initial post was that the only interpretation from our experience with Webb up to this point is that he is probably not an NFL QB yet.
RE: Again, McApoo fucked this up from DAY 1 of the Off season.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/12/2018 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13911095 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
He kept 4 QBs on the roster


When was this?

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: firedbytheboss  
the mike : 4/12/2018 3:27 pm : link
In comment 13910860 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 13910847 firedbytheboss said:


Quote:


In comment 13910833 Mike in NY said:


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In comment 13910825 firedbytheboss said:


Quote:


In comment 13910813 Eric from BBI said:


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(1) I'm not one of those who are saying the Giants can risk assuming Webb has "the goods"... they can't afford to make that assumption if they think Eli is done in a year.

(2) But that said, you are talking about a regime that chose to bench Eli Manning for Geno Smith. That decision made no sense at any level. (Bench Manning for Webb would have, but not Smith). That shows you how dysfunctional the team was by November 2017.



on (1) - i hearya. and we agree
on (2) - i agree their decisions lacked logic. But we have to assume they considered Webb and concluded he wasnt close to ready before the whole thing blew up. anyway that's my assumption. They didn't like what they saw (yet) in Webb as a player.



You know what happens when you assume...
They went with Geno Smith to save their own ass because he gave a better chance to win in 2017 and is more mobile so fit McAdoo's mantra that the issue was Eli Manning's legs that were the issue the whole time



ok but why then not the slightest buzz about Webb. Why was he denied meaningful reps at practice. His first year was a giant (no pun intended) zero. When a team likes a guy he at least gets meaningful practice time. He lagged behind the timetable a QB prospect gets. He laged behind Trubisky and Trubisky was terrible when he started playing. He lagged behind any QB prospect I can ever remember. He lagged (badly) behind Mahomes who is a project and was playing behind a playoff QB who had a great season on a top team. I think you are bending over backwards and making excuses for Webb.



And you are bending over backwards to make excuses why we need to take a QB with serious red flags. Trubisky and Mahomes were Top 10 picks. Webb was a third rounder. How many times do I have to tell you, the decision not to give Webb more reps was due to a pigheaded head coach who did not want to risk his job with the ups and downs of a rookie QB and was desperate to show that his system could work. He made such a big deal about Eli's lack of mobility that he wanted to show his scheme worked with Geno Smith or Josh Johnson (who were more mobile than Webb, even though Webb is more mobile than Eli Manning) at QB


Exactly right! I don't understand why people are struggling with this... It could not be more obvious...
I'm a big Webb fan  
Jay in Toronto : 4/12/2018 3:33 pm : link
and rooting for him to be light's out.

He's a Giant and not an a**hole and a hard worker.

That's enough for me to pull for him unreservedly.
RE: Nice quibble Victor,  
Jay in Toronto : 4/12/2018 3:38 pm : link
In comment 13911248 oldog said:
Quote:
surely some interchange between the outgoing and incoming has occurred, and all Dallas had on Dak was his college tapes.


Plus he had a lot of reps with Engram and others, who could provide some intelligence.
The question no one has answered  
lax counsel : 4/12/2018 3:43 pm : link
That I've posted several times on this topic is very simple and yet to be answered by Webb supporters. Doesn't anyone think that if either Mcadoo or Reese thought awebb would even flash as a franchise qb after the season was already done, that they wouldn't have given him a shot? The Giants were 1-8 after San Francisco. Wins and losses no longer mattered, there was likely little Mcadoo or Reese could do to save their jobs in that regard. However, wouldn't it have been a huge windfall for both in front of the owners to say they drafted and developed the next franchise qb?

The last chance to save their jobs. What's more likely is Mcadoo realized Webb was nothing more than a career backup and Reese's realized he fumbled yet another 3rd rounder, and didn't want to further expose themselves.
So, you just happened to open up an account here  
5BowlsSoon : 4/12/2018 3:55 pm : link
Just to bash Webb. What Other agenda do you have?
RE: RE: RE: Stop the non-sense  
Scott in Montreal : 4/12/2018 4:26 pm : link
In comment 13910839 firedbytheboss said:
Quote:
In comment 13910817 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 13910805 Beer Man said:


Quote:So Aaron Rodgers couldn't beat out Favre in his first year and Davis Webb couldn't beat out Geno Smith. See the difference here? As bad as McAdoo was he can tell when a QB can't beat out Geno Smith.


Using your logic. Favre should have never played because he could not beat out Michael Vick his rookie year.
RE: The question no one has answered  
Mike in NY : 4/12/2018 4:34 pm : link
In comment 13911747 lax counsel said:
Quote:
That I've posted several times on this topic is very simple and yet to be answered by Webb supporters. Doesn't anyone think that if either Mcadoo or Reese thought awebb would even flash as a franchise qb after the season was already done, that they wouldn't have given him a shot? The Giants were 1-8 after San Francisco. Wins and losses no longer mattered, there was likely little Mcadoo or Reese could do to save their jobs in that regard. However, wouldn't it have been a huge windfall for both in front of the owners to say they drafted and developed the next franchise qb?

The last chance to save their jobs. What's more likely is Mcadoo realized Webb was nothing more than a career backup and Reese's realized he fumbled yet another 3rd rounder, and didn't want to further expose themselves.


I am not saying that Webb is the heir apparent, my position all along has been that you take the BPA at #2 regardless of position. If, even giving QB's a boost because of the importance of the position, a QB is not BPA don't take one. I do not know how anyone can determine that someone is career back-up from a rookie season. Eli Manning was pathetic as a rookie. What is much more likely is that McAdoo was determined to show that his scheme could work with a more mobile QB (Davis Webb is more mobile than Eli, but not as much as Geno Smith) and he was hoping that if he could do better than .500 over the last 7 games with an improved O that might make a case for giving him another year. A rookie QB, even one who may eventually be a starter, is not the best way to try and win 4/7 games with OL and WR decimated.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Stop the non-sense  
firedbytheboss : 4/12/2018 5:43 pm : link
In comment 13911853 Scott in Montreal said:
Quote:
In comment 13910839 firedbytheboss said:


Quote:


In comment 13910817 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 13910805 Beer Man said:


Quote:So Aaron Rodgers couldn't beat out Favre in his first year and Davis Webb couldn't beat out Geno Smith. See the difference here? As bad as McAdoo was he can tell when a QB can't beat out Geno Smith.



Using your logic. Favre should have never played because he could not beat out Michael Vick his rookie year.


huh what? Favre and Vick?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Stop the non-sense  
Mike in NY : 4/12/2018 5:49 pm : link
In comment 13911965 firedbytheboss said:
Quote:
In comment 13911853 Scott in Montreal said:


Quote:


In comment 13910839 firedbytheboss said:


Quote:


In comment 13910817 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 13910805 Beer Man said:


Quote:So Aaron Rodgers couldn't beat out Favre in his first year and Davis Webb couldn't beat out Geno Smith. See the difference here? As bad as McAdoo was he can tell when a QB can't beat out Geno Smith.



Using your logic. Favre should have never played because he could not beat out Michael Vick his rookie year.



huh what? Favre and Vick?


Typo likely on his part. Brett Favre, despite being a 2nd Round pick, was 3rd string behind Chris Miller (14 starts) and Billy Joe Tolliver (2 starts). He did throw 4 passes (0 completions and 2 interceptions). By your logic that meant he was going to be a bust
RE: RE: Again, McApoo fucked this up from DAY 1 of the Off season.  
ZogZerg : 4/12/2018 5:52 pm : link
In comment 13911674 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13911095 ZogZerg said:


Quote:


He kept 4 QBs on the roster



When was this?


The Day after Web was drafted until the day of the last cuts before these season. ALL the development time for young QB. Did you not follow the Giants last year?
Favre didn't play because his head coach at the time flat out  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/12/2018 5:54 pm : link
disagreed with the move to pick him in the draft. He had character concerns as a prospect.
RE: RE: RE: Again, McApoo fucked this up from DAY 1 of the Off season.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/12/2018 5:55 pm : link
In comment 13911980 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
In comment 13911674 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13911095 ZogZerg said:


Quote:


He kept 4 QBs on the roster



When was this?




The Day after Web was drafted until the day of the last cuts before these season. ALL the development time for young QB. Did you not follow the Giants last year?


Yeah, that's not how that works. It's a 90 man roster at that point of the year.
RE: Favre didn't play because his head coach at the time flat out  
Mike in NY : 4/12/2018 5:56 pm : link
In comment 13911981 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
disagreed with the move to pick him in the draft. He had character concerns as a prospect.


And Webb didn't play because his head coach was desperate to win at all costs to try and save his job than actually develop a QB and deal with the inevitable ups and downs. According to firedbytheboss that means that means they are both busts.
Ten Ton Hammer  
ZogZerg : 4/12/2018 5:57 pm : link
Dude - you are clueless!

That is exactly how developing a young QB works. You need to have practice snaps.

RE: RE: Favre didn't play because his head coach at the time flat out  
firedbytheboss : 4/12/2018 6:41 pm : link
In comment 13911986 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 13911981 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


disagreed with the move to pick him in the draft. He had character concerns as a prospect.



And Webb didn't play because his head coach was desperate to win at all costs to try and save his job than actually develop a QB and deal with the inevitable ups and downs. According to firedbytheboss that means that means they are both busts.


i'm not saying Webb is a bust per se. I am saying that in the last year Webb apparently did nothing to distinguish himself at any point to earn meaningful game action or meaningful practice snaps. A team tell you how they feel about a player by how they play him. And they didnt play him at all. Nada. It is a lost year for Webb and unless he does something to change minds this month I am sure they will conclude he is nothing more than an untapped 3rd round talent at this stage.
RE: RE: RE: Favre didn't play because his head coach at the time flat out  
Mike in NY : 4/12/2018 7:28 pm : link
In comment 13912023 firedbytheboss said:
Quote:
In comment 13911986 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 13911981 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


disagreed with the move to pick him in the draft. He had character concerns as a prospect.



And Webb didn't play because his head coach was desperate to win at all costs to try and save his job than actually develop a QB and deal with the inevitable ups and downs. According to firedbytheboss that means that means they are both busts.



i'm not saying Webb is a bust per se. I am saying that in the last year Webb apparently did nothing to distinguish himself at any point to earn meaningful game action or meaningful practice snaps. A team tell you how they feel about a player by how they play him. And they didnt play him at all. Nada. It is a lost year for Webb and unless he does something to change minds this month I am sure they will conclude he is nothing more than an untapped 3rd round talent at this stage.


Atlanta didnít play Brett Favre. Webb should not impact who we select at #2. It should be BPA regardless of position. If Barkley is BPA we should draft Barkley. If Darnold is BPA we should draft Darnold. The importance of QB is factored in by moving QBís ahead of comparable or even better players at other positions, but they should not automatically be 1 and 2 on the board.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Stop the non-sense  
Scott in Montreal : 4/12/2018 8:44 pm : link
In comment 13911978 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 13911965 firedbytheboss said:


Quote:


In comment 13911853 Scott in Montreal said:


Quote:


In comment 13910839 firedbytheboss said:


Quote:


In comment 13910817 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 13910805 Beer Man said:


Quote:So Aaron Rodgers couldn't beat out Favre in his first year and Davis Webb couldn't beat out Geno Smith. See the difference here? As bad as McAdoo was he can tell when a QB can't beat out Geno Smith.



Using your logic. Favre should have never played because he could not beat out Michael Vick his rookie year.



huh what? Favre and Vick?



Typo likely on his part. Brett Favre, despite being a 2nd Round pick, was 3rd string behind Chris Miller (14 starts) and Billy Joe Tolliver (2 starts). He did throw 4 passes (0 completions and 2 interceptions). By your logic that meant he was going to be a bust


Yes it was a typo. Wrong decade. Just happened to be comparing the red flags of the current top QB's in this draft with a football buddy and it morphed into a debate who was the best Falcons QB. He was adamant that Vick was. Another story for another time.

My point was. Judging QB's by their ability to jump in as a rookie seems like a very unreliable way of determining their potential worth.

Geno was #2  
BigBluesman : 4/12/2018 8:49 pm : link
Because he was a veteran with extensive in-game experience. He was your prototypical backup QB. In what world does the team go straight to the Rookie 3rd rounder. You guys harp on this why Geno and not Webb theme again and again like you haven't seen how a football roster works. Giants didn't plan on being bad. Geno was the backup. When shit went wrong, Geno starting was the salvo that would have led to us seeing Webb. Spags or whoever pulled the plug on that. But I don't see how you could expect any coaching staff to disrespect the #2 QB by skipping him over outright. He earned that position.
RE: RE: RE: An yone..  
giantstock : 4/12/2018 10:56 pm : link
In comment 13910841 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 13910831 firedbytheboss said:


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In comment 13910808 FatMan in Charlotte said:


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looking to Webb as the future is only going on blind faith right now.

And people thinking that the draft pick we are about to make has a correlation to Webb are dead wrong too.

At this point, Webb is a project. An unknown commodity that only has value to the Giants right now. There's no trade value there. Could he be a starting NFL QB? Damned if I know. Frankly, I don't even know if he could be a better backup than Curtis Painter at this point.

He wouldn't be the first guy to put hard work in and eventually climb the ranks, but he's likely an average to below-average guy fighting for a roster spot.

People who prop Webb up at this point are ultimate optimists.



agree with you.

Hey I'm not saying Webb won't be good or great. But he did nothing to convince any of the leadership that he would be ready. So the Giants have to behave like he is no better than a backup. They need to draft one of these QBs imo. If Webb surprises and he is the next Tom Brady, well that is fantastic for the Giants and they will have 3 good QBs. That is a great problem to have.



Actually it is a terrible problem to have because the Giants have a lot of needs that could have been addressed with the 2nd overall pick. Also, if teams know that we have to dump a QB they are going to lowball. Finally, there is just not enough reps for 3 QB's who are potential starters. I agree that Webb should not factor into the #2 overall pick. That is why the #2 pick should be whomever is the top player on our board regardless of position.


I don't agree with anything you say here. It is a great problem to have. If the Giants have 3 great QB's it means they don't need Eli. Therefore you free up cap space assuming you can't trade him.

As far as the other QB's if ALSO the other 2 are great which was the psoter's premise then it means both showed something terrific. That makes them better than next year's class. There is no way no way no way that multiple teams won't go into a bidding war for the QB. Team just paid obscene money for both Cousins and Stafford. There wasn't any "low ball." The issue is that you are a Giants fan and you have a bias for the G-Men and can't put yourself in another team's shoes IF they don't land a good QB.

There will be several offers for GM's and teams looking to save their jobs energize their fan base. If the premise as the poster said is the Giants are good, the bidders are going to be competing with one another because they can't afford to lose out on the great QB. They are thinking of themselves-- on how their team can get better. Not how you are thinking by trying to "rip off" the Giants. Then they run a risk to losing out on a team that gives a fair offer. They'd get crucified by their fan base for deliberately being cheap not to mention THEY WANT TO WIN TOO rather than "low ball." That's what COusins and Satfford signings by GM's is telling you.

***It's easy for you to say "I'll just low ball them." But sitting on your couch you have nothing to lose. This GM knows his owner wants him to win. And if the owner gave him a good enough to go get players and the GM loses out because he didn't at least give a fair offer, how long do you think he'll have his job if his team loses and the QB he has continues to stink while the guy he could have gotten is doing well?
The entire NFL passed on Davis Webb until the 3rd round of the draft  
baadbill : 4/12/2018 10:59 pm : link
for a reason. Does that necessarily mean he won't be a find? Nope. It just means that the odds of Davis Webb being the next NY Giants QB to hoist the Lombardi are extremely long.

Anyone who believes otherwise will have to explain to the rest of us why. What evidence suggests Webb is something more than just another 3rd round pick. Based upon what I've read, there is ZERO evidence to suggest he is anything other than a long shot 3rd round pick.
RE: Geno was #2  
giantstock : 4/12/2018 11:07 pm : link
In comment 13912196 BigBluesman said:
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Because he was a veteran with extensive in-game experience. He was your prototypical backup QB. In what world does the team go straight to the Rookie 3rd rounder. You guys harp on this why Geno and not Webb theme again and again like you haven't seen how a football roster works. Giants didn't plan on being bad. Geno was the backup. When shit went wrong, Geno starting was the salvo that would have led to us seeing Webb. Spags or whoever pulled the plug on that. But I don't see how you could expect any coaching staff to disrespect the #2 QB by skipping him over outright. He earned that position.


I wonder if you've watched games. Because what you're saying isn't true at all. If Webb showed something after weeks 7 when season was done eh would have been elevated. It's laughable when I hear ownership is "concerned about disrepcting" a career back up player that just came on their team for 1 year. Especially after THIS team to start this past season had ENORMOUS expectations. Everything crumbled around them and yet you think they were concerned about disrespecting Geno SMith?

The NFL is cutthroat but you think Gneo SMith's feelings would have been a worry for this team? IS that you Mrs. Smith? - Ahh just having fun with you. Though i think you are so wrong. IMO they would have looked to show anything positive and being so damn awful ownership wouldn't have cared one damn about a 1 year backup player. Jobs are not safe when performance is so abysmal when you had such high expectations.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Favre didn't play because his head coach at the time flat out  
giantstock : 4/12/2018 11:15 pm : link
In comment 13912071 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 13912023 firedbytheboss said:


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In comment 13911986 Mike in NY said:


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In comment 13911981 Ten Ton Hammer said:


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disagreed with the move to pick him in the draft. He had character concerns as a prospect.



And Webb didn't play because his head coach was desperate to win at all costs to try and save his job than actually develop a QB and deal with the inevitable ups and downs. According to firedbytheboss that means that means they are both busts.



i'm not saying Webb is a bust per se. I am saying that in the last year Webb apparently did nothing to distinguish himself at any point to earn meaningful game action or meaningful practice snaps. A team tell you how they feel about a player by how they play him. And they didnt play him at all. Nada. It is a lost year for Webb and unless he does something to change minds this month I am sure they will conclude he is nothing more than an untapped 3rd round talent at this stage.



Atlanta didnít play Brett Favre. Webb should not impact who we select at #2. It should be BPA regardless of position. If Barkley is BPA we should draft Barkley. If Darnold is BPA we should draft Darnold. The importance of QB is factored in by moving QBís ahead of comparable or even better players at other positions, but they should not automatically be 1 and 2 on the board.


You maek contradictory statements here. You say if Barkley is BPA then you should take Barkley. Then you say

"the comparable or even better players at other positions,"

Yet that is what all of us are saying for this draft. A guy such as Barklwy is better but as you say to paraphrase "QB's can be taken even if other players are better."


RE: RE: Geno was #2  
firedbytheboss : 4/12/2018 11:15 pm : link
In comment 13912309 giantstock said:
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In comment 13912196 BigBluesman said:


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Because he was a veteran with extensive in-game experience. He was your prototypical backup QB. In what world does the team go straight to the Rookie 3rd rounder. You guys harp on this why Geno and not Webb theme again and again like you haven't seen how a football roster works. Giants didn't plan on being bad. Geno was the backup. When shit went wrong, Geno starting was the salvo that would have led to us seeing Webb. Spags or whoever pulled the plug on that. But I don't see how you could expect any coaching staff to disrespect the #2 QB by skipping him over outright. He earned that position.



I wonder if you've watched games. Because what you're saying isn't true at all. If Webb showed something after weeks 7 when season was done eh would have been elevated. It's laughable when I hear ownership is "concerned about disrepcting" a career back up player that just came on their team for 1 year. Especially after THIS team to start this past season had ENORMOUS expectations. Everything crumbled around them and yet you think they were concerned about disrespecting Geno SMith?

The NFL is cutthroat but you think Gneo SMith's feelings would have been a worry for this team? IS that you Mrs. Smith? - Ahh just having fun with you. Though i think you are so wrong. IMO they would have looked to show anything positive and being so damn awful ownership wouldn't have cared one damn about a 1 year backup player. Jobs are not safe when performance is so abysmal when you had such high expectations.


Bingo.. it is says something that Webb couldn't get reps in this shit storm. Think about how bad he must have shown.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Favre didn't play because his head coach at the time flat out  
Mike in NY : 4/12/2018 11:21 pm : link
In comment 13912316 giantstock said:
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In comment 13912071 Mike in NY said:


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In comment 13912023 firedbytheboss said:


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In comment 13911986 Mike in NY said:


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In comment 13911981 Ten Ton Hammer said:


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disagreed with the move to pick him in the draft. He had character concerns as a prospect.



And Webb didn't play because his head coach was desperate to win at all costs to try and save his job than actually develop a QB and deal with the inevitable ups and downs. According to firedbytheboss that means that means they are both busts.



i'm not saying Webb is a bust per se. I am saying that in the last year Webb apparently did nothing to distinguish himself at any point to earn meaningful game action or meaningful practice snaps. A team tell you how they feel about a player by how they play him. And they didnt play him at all. Nada. It is a lost year for Webb and unless he does something to change minds this month I am sure they will conclude he is nothing more than an untapped 3rd round talent at this stage.



Atlanta didnít play Brett Favre. Webb should not impact who we select at #2. It should be BPA regardless of position. If Barkley is BPA we should draft Barkley. If Darnold is BPA we should draft Darnold. The importance of QB is factored in by moving QBís ahead of comparable or even better players at other positions, but they should not automatically be 1 and 2 on the board.



You maek contradictory statements here. You say if Barkley is BPA then you should take Barkley. Then you say

"the comparable or even better players at other positions,"

Yet that is what all of us are saying for this draft. A guy such as Barklwy is better but as you say to paraphrase "QB's can be taken even if other players are better."



Sorry if I was unclear. What I am saying is that a team may move a QB that might be #15 overall if you didnít factor in position to #5 because he was a QB. They should not then take the #5 overall guy at #2 because he is a QB. It was already factored in when team moved him from #15 to #5.
RE: RE: Geno was #2  
BigBluesman : 4/12/2018 11:37 pm : link

IMO when a change is made, the #2 gets a chance. Where do you see an exception to this in the NFL? Why this is all of a sudden a crazy notion when it comes to Geno Smith, I don't understand. Might be that so many NY fans watched him be a bad QB for the Jets. Nonetheless, his experience earned him the backup job. It would be unreasonable to expect him not to play at least some before they put Webb in. We didn't get to see that through.
RE: RE: RE: Geno was #2  
.McL. : 4/13/2018 3:44 am : link
In comment 13912317 firedbytheboss said:
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Bingo.. it is says something that Webb couldn't get reps in this shit storm. Think about how bad he must have shown.


No wonder you got fired by the boss. If you worked for me, I would fire you too!!!

Ok question time...

1) The Giants let Geno walk, but they kept Webb on the roster. Doesn't that mean that Webb is much better Geno?
2) The Giants benched Simms for Brunner. That means that Brunner was a a better QB than Simms, right?
3) The Giants benched Simms for Hostetler. That means that Hostetler was a better QB than Simms, right?
4) The Giants cut Simms to play Dave Brown. That means that Dave Brown was a better QB than Simms, right?
5) Aaron Rodgers could not beat out an aging Brett Favre for 3 straight years. That means the old Favre was still better than Rodgers, right?
6) The Chargers traded Brees to let Rivers play. That means that Rivers is better than Brees, right?
7) Jerry Glanville of the Falcons said it would take a "plane crash" to put Favre in a game. While with Atlanta Favre's stats were 0-4-2 and 1 sack for -11. One interception was a pick 6. Then he traded Favre. That means that Favre sucked, right?
8) Kurt Warner was never drafted, cut by the QB needy Packers, could only get play in the Arena league (not even NFLE at the time). Finally the Rams sent him to NFLE, then he was 3rd string behind such luminaries as Tony Banks and Steve Bono. That means the Kurt Warner sucked, right?
9) Tony Romo went undrafted, was supposed to be cut until Quincy Carter's substance abuse came to light. Then he was 3rd string behind a 40 something Testeverde and Drew Henson, then Dallas traded for, and Romo backed up a washed up Bledsoe... That means that Romo sucked, right?
10) Johnny Unitas was cut by the Pittsburgh Steelers. That means he sucked, right?
11) Steve McNair got only a handful of plays in 2 years backing Chris Chandler. That means the Chris Chandler was far greater than Steve McNair, right?
12) Steve Young sucked with Tampa Bay and was traded away in favor of Testeverde. That means that Testeverde was a better QB that Steve Young, right?

Ok, enough...

If the conclusions I propose in these scenarios seems stupid, well they should. But its the same conclusion you have jumped to about Webb.

Football people make mistakes. Sucky ones like Reese and McAdoo make lots of mistakes. You cannot judge a player by their actions. Especially when the plan from the start was always to red shirt him. THe narrative was that he was never going to see action in 2017. Should that narrative have changed after an 0-5 start. Absolutely, but then again by then we had sucky football people scrambling for their jobs making sucky decisions. Despite being a sucky football person, even McAdoo said he was going to play Webb. Now since he had given Webb 0 reps, he couldn't just throw him out there on short notice. So his plan was to start prepping him and play him in a week or 2. The fact that he didn't play him before Geno says more about McAdoo not preparing his players than it says about Webb.

All that said, I have no idea if Webb is any good or not. I will reserve my judgement until after I see him get some playing time. I will say this much, he is easy to root for.

I see the point you're trying to make, but some of those examples  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/13/2018 6:42 am : link
Are misleading. Rodgers didn't play because favre was still pretty good, and because Rodgers himself wasn't ready to play, for example. Even Rodgers admits he benefitted from sitting.

In some of those cases the player did kinda suck until he developed to a certain point. And development actually panning out is never a guarantee. It's dependent on a lot of factors going right.
RE: I see the point you're trying to make, but some of those examples  
.McL. : 4/13/2018 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13912383 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Are misleading. Rodgers didn't play because favre was still pretty good, and because Rodgers himself wasn't ready to play, for example. Even Rodgers admits he benefitted from sitting.

In some of those cases the player did kinda suck until he developed to a certain point. And development actually panning out is never a guarantee. It's dependent on a lot of factors going right.


Uh... You are kinda making my point in including certain cases.
Yes in some cases the player needed more time to develop to be ready to get on the field. Isn't that the situation with Webb? In such cases above, did the fact that they needed the time to develop, mean that their respective teams should have just given up on them and written them off? Clearly not!

Did you read the OP, its some of the dumbest drivel posted on this board!
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Maybe he couldnt see the pro game. Maybe it was too fast for him. If ever there was a season a rookie could get action in a game it was this season. I don't think the other excuses hold water.


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He was behind Geno Smith all year. If he was better than Smith he would have played.


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Webb has already failed. Webb already has a huge demerit.
It is the same situation  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/13/2018 1:41 pm : link
But how much time and patience for a player of Webb's class is pretty subjective. Brett Favre was a good prospect. Ron Wolf traded to get him from Atlanta. Rodgers was expected to go fairly high. Davis Webb is not someone the league had a particularly hot grade on.
RE: It is the same situation  
.McL. : 4/13/2018 2:05 pm : link
In comment 13913145 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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But how much time and patience for a player of Webb's class is pretty subjective. Brett Favre was a good prospect. Ron Wolf traded to get him from Atlanta. Rodgers was expected to go fairly high. Davis Webb is not someone the league had a particularly hot grade on.


Don't read what I wrote as saying Webb is the next Favre. or Rodgers, or that I am making any comparison deeper than the situation.

I am simply responding to the abject lack of redeeming value in the OPs post.
RE: RE: It is the same situation  
.McL. : 4/13/2018 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13913204 .McL. said:
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In comment 13913145 Ten Ton Hammer said:


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But how much time and patience for a player of Webb's class is pretty subjective. Brett Favre was a good prospect. Ron Wolf traded to get him from Atlanta. Rodgers was expected to go fairly high. Davis Webb is not someone the league had a particularly hot grade on.



Don't read what I wrote as saying Webb is the next Favre. or Rodgers, or that I am making any comparison deeper than the situation.

I am simply responding to the abject lack of redeeming value in the OPs post.


And yes, Favre and Rodgers were high picks (very high 2nd for Favre and late first for Rodgers), and in Favre's case Wolf traded a first for him. In both cases, The level of investment suggests that the team will give these players more time and leeway to develop than will be afforded Webb. But to pass judgement on Webb based on last years debacle, that was completely mismanaged by "sucky football people" who are no longer with the team is beyond ridiculous.

Completely off topic... To this day the fact that Wolf gave up a first for Favre when he did is mind boggling. During the physical for the trade, Favre had been diagnosed with the same condition that caused necrosis in Bo Jackson's hip, team officials wanted to nullify the trade, Wolf overruled them. Talk about a red flag! If that Favre were in the current draft class, I bet he would be taken off virtually every team's boards, and rightfully so.
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