There is one thing that I have learned from listening to Greg Cosell over the years. Teams tell you what they think of a player by how they use him. This is not my idea, it is Cosell's. And he is an astute observer of NFL team habits and an insightful analyst especially regarding the QB position.
What did the Giants do with Webb in 2017? They obviously didn't give him any offensive game snaps. When they benched Eli they gave those to Geno Smith. So in that regard they felt Webb couldn't beat out Geno Smith to see game action. That is a fairly big fucking deal. But ok maybe you want to say that the last Giants regime was dumb as dirt.
But what of the idea that Webb wasn't given any meaningful first team snaps in practice - if I am to understand what happened correctly. It means the kid wasn't anywhere near pro ready. So the past regime who drafted this kid, and had a lot invested in him, never felt at any point that his performance merited meaningful action. Put another way, he did not develop to earn action.
In some way he was behind. Maybe mentally. Maybe he couldnt see the pro game. Maybe it was too fast for him. If ever there was a season a rookie could get action in a game it was this season. I don't think the other excuses hold water.
Teams tell you how they regard a player by how they use them.
He was behind Geno Smith all year. If he was better than Smith he would have played. So I don't understand why the first round QB detractors insist that Webb is in the same pool as the 2018 QB prospects. Webb has already failed. Webb already has a huge demerit. And I think DG and PS will look at Webb's inability to beat out Geno or to put down meaningful first team practice reps as a black mark when considering what they should do with the #2 pick.
I just don't understand why guys on here are so willing to put the future of the franchise in the hands of a guy who didn't have the ability to beat out Geno in his first year. I'm fairly certain Rosen, Darnold and Mayfield, at least, could beat out Geno in year one.
Teams tell you how they regard a player by how they use them.
Regardless, I don't know if you noticed but all of last year's decision makers were fired.
Forget scheme - administrative decision making was so lacking in basic logic that it was indefensible. There was no one from ownership down to coaching that showed any semblance of capable leadership last year that any decisions that they made or did not make can reflect one way or the other on Webb.
Regardless, I don't know if you noticed but all of last year's decision makers were fired.
True they were fired but some of these folks made good decisions in the past. Reese helped win two super bowls and drafted us OBJ. If there was even an inkling that Webb had anything positive to contribute I think we would have heard something. Instead the best we got was Manning was working with him on the playbook. I think they saw something in practice that made Webb someone they wouldnt consider starting in 2017.
Teams tell you how they regard a player by how they use them.
If Webb was better than Geno Smith he would have played. He would have at least challenged him for snaps. There would have at least been a buzz. He would have at least gotten first team practice snaps. If a player flashes he is ready, he plays.
And people thinking that the draft pick we are about to make has a correlation to Webb are dead wrong too.
At this point, Webb is a project. An unknown commodity that only has value to the Giants right now. There's no trade value there. Could he be a starting NFL QB? Damned if I know. Frankly, I don't even know if he could be a better backup than Curtis Painter at this point.
He wouldn't be the first guy to put hard work in and eventually climb the ranks, but he's likely an average to below-average guy fighting for a roster spot.
People who prop Webb up at this point are ultimate optimists.
(2) But that said, you are talking about a regime that chose to bench Eli Manning for Geno Smith. That decision made no sense at any level. (Bench Manning for Webb would have, but not Smith). That shows you how dysfunctional the team was by November 2017.
Exactly. Even dating back to training camp and preseason, the reps went to Geno Smith and Josh Johnson in their duel for the back-up spot. McAdoo and Reese were never going to put their asses on the line with the ups and downs of a rookie QB. I don't have a problem with not forcing a rookie QB to be starter Week 1 (too many promising QB's have had their careers cut short because they started too early), but Webb was never going to get a fair shot. Even with the Giants struggling they turned to Smith because he at least had reps with the starting line-up. When we were 0-5 I would be giving as much as possible to Davis Webb. McAdoo and Reese were more concerned about their jobs and wanted that big win streak to at least be 8-8 or as close to it as possible.
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Your thread title seems deliberately provocative.
Regardless, I don't know if you noticed but all of last year's decision makers were fired.
True they were fired but some of these folks made good decisions in the past. Reese helped win two super bowls and drafted us OBJ. If there was even an inkling that Webb had anything positive to contribute I think we would have heard something. Instead the best we got was Manning was working with him on the playbook. I think they saw something in practice that made Webb someone they wouldnt consider starting in 2017.
Teams tell you how they regard a player by how they use them.
The decisions that tell us how the team feels about Webb were made by the Coach, not Reese. So Reese's success is irrelevant.
Now you might say that Reese made the decision to Keep Geno Smith instead of just going with Webb but you have to remember, when he made that decision he was probably expecting a team that would be competing for a strong push into the playoffs. On that type of team you want experience in your backup QB so IMO that also said nothing about what the team though about Webb as a starter in 2019 or 2020.
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From the time they drafted Webb, it was reported that Geno would be the #2 and that Webb's rookie season would be like a Red Shirt year for him to learn the fundamentals of an NFL QB. Geno got the start because Ben & Jerry were trying to save their jobs, and wanted everyone to believe Eli was the problem and that a more mobile QB was needed to fix the Giants O.
If Webb was better than Geno Smith he would have played. He would have at least challenged him for snaps. There would have at least been a buzz. He would have at least gotten first team practice snaps. If a player flashes he is ready, he plays.
Not when you have a head coach and GM who are desperate to save their jobs and Geno Smith gave the Giants a better chance to win in 2017 than Davis Webb, even if Webb may eventually be the better QB.
(2) But that said, you are talking about a regime that chose to bench Eli Manning for Geno Smith. That decision made no sense at any level. (Bench Manning for Webb would have, but not Smith). That shows you how dysfunctional the team was by November 2017.
on (1) - i hearya. and we agree
on (2) - i agree their decisions lacked logic. But we have to assume they considered Webb and concluded he wasnt close to ready before the whole thing blew up. anyway that's my assumption. They didn't like what they saw (yet) in Webb as a player.
And people thinking that the draft pick we are about to make has a correlation to Webb are dead wrong too.
At this point, Webb is a project. An unknown commodity that only has value to the Giants right now. There's no trade value there. Could he be a starting NFL QB? Damned if I know. Frankly, I don't even know if he could be a better backup than Curtis Painter at this point.
He wouldn't be the first guy to put hard work in and eventually climb the ranks, but he's likely an average to below-average guy fighting for a roster spot.
People who prop Webb up at this point are ultimate optimists.
agree with you.
Hey I'm not saying Webb won't be good or great. But he did nothing to convince any of the leadership that he would be ready. So the Giants have to behave like he is no better than a backup. They need to draft one of these QBs imo. If Webb surprises and he is the next Tom Brady, well that is fantastic for the Giants and they will have 3 good QBs. That is a great problem to have.
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(1) I'm not one of those who are saying the Giants can risk assuming Webb has "the goods"... they can't afford to make that assumption if they think Eli is done in a year.
(2) But that said, you are talking about a regime that chose to bench Eli Manning for Geno Smith. That decision made no sense at any level. (Bench Manning for Webb would have, but not Smith). That shows you how dysfunctional the team was by November 2017.
on (1) - i hearya. and we agree
on (2) - i agree their decisions lacked logic. But we have to assume they considered Webb and concluded he wasnt close to ready before the whole thing blew up. anyway that's my assumption. They didn't like what they saw (yet) in Webb as a player.
You know what happens when you assume...
They went with Geno Smith to save their own ass because he gave a better chance to win in 2017 and is more mobile so fit McAdoo's mantra that the issue was Eli Manning's legs that were the issue the whole time
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From the time they drafted Webb, it was reported that Geno would be the #2 and that Webb's rookie season would be like a Red Shirt year for him to learn the fundamentals of an NFL QB. Geno got the start because Ben & Jerry were trying to save their jobs, and wanted everyone to believe Eli was the problem and that a more mobile QB was needed to fix the Giants O.
Exactly. Even dating back to training camp and preseason, the reps went to Geno Smith and Josh Johnson in their duel for the back-up spot. McAdoo and Reese were never going to put their asses on the line with the ups and downs of a rookie QB. I don't have a problem with not forcing a rookie QB to be starter Week 1 (too many promising QB's have had their careers cut short because they started too early), but Webb was never going to get a fair shot. Even with the Giants struggling they turned to Smith because he at least had reps with the starting line-up. When we were 0-5 I would be giving as much as possible to Davis Webb. McAdoo and Reese were more concerned about their jobs and wanted that big win streak to at least be 8-8 or as close to it as possible.
good QBs play when they are ready if they are better than the guy ahead of them. So Aaron Rodgers couldn't beat out Favre in his first year and Davis Webb couldn't beat out Geno Smith. See the difference here? As bad as McAdoo was he can tell when a QB can't beat out Geno Smith.
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looking to Webb as the future is only going on blind faith right now.
And people thinking that the draft pick we are about to make has a correlation to Webb are dead wrong too.
At this point, Webb is a project. An unknown commodity that only has value to the Giants right now. There's no trade value there. Could he be a starting NFL QB? Damned if I know. Frankly, I don't even know if he could be a better backup than Curtis Painter at this point.
He wouldn't be the first guy to put hard work in and eventually climb the ranks, but he's likely an average to below-average guy fighting for a roster spot.
People who prop Webb up at this point are ultimate optimists.
agree with you.
Hey I'm not saying Webb won't be good or great. But he did nothing to convince any of the leadership that he would be ready. So the Giants have to behave like he is no better than a backup. They need to draft one of these QBs imo. If Webb surprises and he is the next Tom Brady, well that is fantastic for the Giants and they will have 3 good QBs. That is a great problem to have.
Actually it is a terrible problem to have because the Giants have a lot of needs that could have been addressed with the 2nd overall pick. Also, if teams know that we have to dump a QB they are going to lowball. Finally, there is just not enough reps for 3 QB's who are potential starters. I agree that Webb should not factor into the #2 overall pick. That is why the #2 pick should be whomever is the top player on our board regardless of position.
You don't put a rookie QB out there with no blocking, no running game, a rookie TE and a slot receiver as his only weapons, constant poor field position due to a bad defense & bad special teams unless you really want destroy an investment and see how well he takes an ass beating.
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In comment 13910805 Beer Man said:
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From the time they drafted Webb, it was reported that Geno would be the #2 and that Webb's rookie season would be like a Red Shirt year for him to learn the fundamentals of an NFL QB. Geno got the start because Ben & Jerry were trying to save their jobs, and wanted everyone to believe Eli was the problem and that a more mobile QB was needed to fix the Giants O.
Exactly. Even dating back to training camp and preseason, the reps went to Geno Smith and Josh Johnson in their duel for the back-up spot. McAdoo and Reese were never going to put their asses on the line with the ups and downs of a rookie QB. I don't have a problem with not forcing a rookie QB to be starter Week 1 (too many promising QB's have had their careers cut short because they started too early), but Webb was never going to get a fair shot. Even with the Giants struggling they turned to Smith because he at least had reps with the starting line-up. When we were 0-5 I would be giving as much as possible to Davis Webb. McAdoo and Reese were more concerned about their jobs and wanted that big win streak to at least be 8-8 or as close to it as possible.
good QBs play when they are ready if they are better than the guy ahead of them. So Aaron Rodgers couldn't beat out Favre in his first year and Davis Webb couldn't beat out Geno Smith. See the difference here? As bad as McAdoo was he can tell when a QB can't beat out Geno Smith.
Webb was never given a chance to beat out Geno Smith. Ever since he was brought in, McAdoo refused to give him more reps than the 3rd/4th QB because he did not want a rookie QB starting and potentially costing him his job with the inevitable ups and downs of a rookie QB. You are not going to throw a guy out on the field who has no reps with the players in your starting offense. This was exacerbated by all of the injuries at WR that forced Eli to have more reps in practice than you would ideally want because he needed to develop chemistry with the new WR's brought in off the street.
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In comment 13910813 Eric from BBI said:
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(1) I'm not one of those who are saying the Giants can risk assuming Webb has "the goods"... they can't afford to make that assumption if they think Eli is done in a year.
(2) But that said, you are talking about a regime that chose to bench Eli Manning for Geno Smith. That decision made no sense at any level. (Bench Manning for Webb would have, but not Smith). That shows you how dysfunctional the team was by November 2017.
on (1) - i hearya. and we agree
on (2) - i agree their decisions lacked logic. But we have to assume they considered Webb and concluded he wasnt close to ready before the whole thing blew up. anyway that's my assumption. They didn't like what they saw (yet) in Webb as a player.
You know what happens when you assume...
They went with Geno Smith to save their own ass because he gave a better chance to win in 2017 and is more mobile so fit McAdoo's mantra that the issue was Eli Manning's legs that were the issue the whole time
ok but why then not the slightest buzz about Webb. Why was he denied meaningful reps at practice. His first year was a giant (no pun intended) zero. When a team likes a guy he at least gets meaningful practice time. He lagged behind the timetable a QB prospect gets. He laged behind Trubisky and Trubisky was terrible when he started playing. He lagged behind any QB prospect I can ever remember. He lagged (badly) behind Mahomes who is a project and was playing behind a playoff QB who had a great season on a top team. I think you are bending over backwards and making excuses for Webb.
haha.. indeed
This....
The Giants brass made it clear from DAY ONE that Webb was going to sit and learn his first year. Webb was a project pick that may or may not amount to anything for the Giants. But I think the premise that the Giants made a mistake in not playing him last season is false. The coaching staff was trying to save their collective asses and Geno...not Webb was the player most likely to prove that Eli was the problem.
The plan to redshirt Webb came under the assumption that this was a SB contender. Once they were out of the playoffs it became about player evaluation. People assume that Webb was just the #3 QB all season because that was the plan all along but I find that hard to believe.
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In comment 13910825 firedbytheboss said:
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In comment 13910813 Eric from BBI said:
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(1) I'm not one of those who are saying the Giants can risk assuming Webb has "the goods"... they can't afford to make that assumption if they think Eli is done in a year.
(2) But that said, you are talking about a regime that chose to bench Eli Manning for Geno Smith. That decision made no sense at any level. (Bench Manning for Webb would have, but not Smith). That shows you how dysfunctional the team was by November 2017.
on (1) - i hearya. and we agree
on (2) - i agree their decisions lacked logic. But we have to assume they considered Webb and concluded he wasnt close to ready before the whole thing blew up. anyway that's my assumption. They didn't like what they saw (yet) in Webb as a player.
You know what happens when you assume...
They went with Geno Smith to save their own ass because he gave a better chance to win in 2017 and is more mobile so fit McAdoo's mantra that the issue was Eli Manning's legs that were the issue the whole time
ok but why then not the slightest buzz about Webb. Why was he denied meaningful reps at practice. His first year was a giant (no pun intended) zero. When a team likes a guy he at least gets meaningful practice time. He lagged behind the timetable a QB prospect gets. He laged behind Trubisky and Trubisky was terrible when he started playing. He lagged behind any QB prospect I can ever remember. He lagged (badly) behind Mahomes who is a project and was playing behind a playoff QB who had a great season on a top team. I think you are bending over backwards and making excuses for Webb.
And you are bending over backwards to make excuses why we need to take a QB with serious red flags. Trubisky and Mahomes were Top 10 picks. Webb was a third rounder. How many times do I have to tell you, the decision not to give Webb more reps was due to a pigheaded head coach who did not want to risk his job with the ups and downs of a rookie QB and was desperate to show that his system could work. He made such a big deal about Eli's lack of mobility that he wanted to show his scheme worked with Geno Smith or Josh Johnson (who were more mobile than Webb, even though Webb is more mobile than Eli Manning) at QB
2.) We all knew that the o-line was a big problem giving enough protection for 2-time superbowl MVP, Eli Manning to be effective.
3.) Late in the season the Giants had a revolving door at WR consisting of UDFA's, some of which just signed with the team.
4.) When the decision was made to start Geno Smith over Webb, it was clear that the whole season was lost and players were beginning to quit on the coach.
Does anyone think it's quite possible that the Giants didn't want to put Webb in because they knew he couldn't succeed with the state the offense was in? Maybe this is the Giants' version of "trust the process".
There was a window last year to elevate Webb to the backup role. to have him run the second unit in practice and get reps. But that didn't happen and we all saw what ended up following.
It made sense to have Webb "redshirt" a year when he was drafted. But as the season went on, they needed to be flexible in that approach. Not being flexible is part of the reason the staff was fired.
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From the time they drafted Webb, it was reported that Geno would be the #2 and that Webb's rookie season would be like a Red Shirt year for him to learn the fundamentals of an NFL QB. Geno got the start because Ben & Jerry were trying to save their jobs, and wanted everyone to believe Eli was the problem and that a more mobile QB was needed to fix the Giants O.
The plan to redshirt Webb came under the assumption that this was a SB contender. Once they were out of the playoffs it became about player evaluation. People assume that Webb was just the #3 QB all season because that was the plan all along but I find that hard to believe.
thank you.
Having Webb as the #3 said nothing about his potential in 2019-2021. It said, we think we are SB contender and if we have to win a couple of games without Eli, we are going with experience, not long term potential.
Now, we dont know if Webb has long term starting potential and that was the real fuck up of the previous administration.
There was a window last year to elevate Webb to the backup role. to have him run the second unit in practice and get reps. But that didn't happen and we all saw what ended up following.
It made sense to have Webb "redshirt" a year when he was drafted. But as the season went on, they needed to be flexible in that approach. Not being flexible is part of the reason the staff was fired.
You said it better than I did. Once the Giants were out of it they could have elevated Webb to the #2 role in order to give him more snaps in practice to speed up his development as well as evaluate his progress. I don't think many realize just how few practices each team has now under the new CBA. The practice reps are limited and extremely valuable. Webb most likely received only a handful of snaps during the week in practice on the scout team.
There was a window last year to elevate Webb to the backup role. to have him run the second unit in practice and get reps. But that didn't happen and we all saw what ended up following.
It made sense to have Webb "redshirt" a year when he was drafted. But as the season went on, they needed to be flexible in that approach. Not being flexible is part of the reason the staff was fired.
This was my argument last year. As soon as it was clear the Giants were toast (which was comically early in the season), Webb's reps in practice should have been upped in preparation for a late-season look. (This even assumes Reese and McAdoo might have survived). The way the QBs were handled last year was stupid. You can even get whiffs of that in comments from Gettleman and Shurmur ("unfortunate we don't have more info on Webb").
Regardless, I don't know if you noticed but all of last year's decision makers were fired.
That is why Webb is an Unkown at this point. McAPoo fucking sucks and fucked this up from day 1.
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Your thread title seems deliberately provocative.
Regardless, I don't know if you noticed but all of last year's decision makers were fired.
Good point Eric. That may be inidication they were incompetent in their evaluation of how to use Webb last year. As well as many other things. The poster obviously wants us to draft a QB at #2 and wants to denigrate Webb. We have a new regime who are eminently qualified to evaluate Webb and his potential.
and saw how Rodgers was a QB project that didn't become starter until his third year
Rodgers barely saw the field during this time on the bench only coming in a handful of times when Farve was hurt or they were blowing out team.
Exactly who on the Giants coaching staff has had a "nice close look" at Davis Webb?
So 87th or 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th or 5th. 87th????...or top 5. Right now, with no resume' in the NFL, that is what Davis Webb's value is compared to the top QBs in this draft.
Dallas had a good OL in place. The Giants OL is average at best. The Giants can certainly hang their hats on Eli for another few years if they want. But at some point in the next one to three years will be forced to make a move at QB. Sitting at #2...if the QB they love is available...I think they have to pull the trigger.
So 87th or 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th or 5th. 87th????...or top 5. Right now, with no resume' in the NFL, that is what Davis Webb's value is compared to the top QBs in this draft.
yes I think you are 100% right. He did nothing in one full year to improve his perception. nothing. So DG and PS will rightly view Webb as nothing more than a 3rd round talent at this stage, while likely viewing the top-4 this year as first round talents.
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From the time they drafted Webb, it was reported that Geno would be the #2 and that Webb's rookie season would be like a Red Shirt year for him to learn the fundamentals of an NFL QB. Geno got the start because Ben & Jerry were trying to save their jobs, and wanted everyone to believe Eli was the problem and that a more mobile QB was needed to fix the Giants O.
This....
The Giants brass made it clear from DAY ONE that Webb was going to sit and learn his first year. Webb was a project pick that may or may not amount to anything for the Giants. But I think the premise that the Giants made a mistake in not playing him last season is false. The coaching staff was trying to save their collective asses and Geno...not Webb was the player most likely to prove that Eli was the problem.
I think many Webb supporters have the Webb equation badly flipped. Players are expected to come in and show what they have and learn and improve. It is up to the player to show the team they must play. This is true all over the NFL. Half of what team's tell the fans is total bullshit. And the other half is just cover their ass talking points. Get real. How long do you think you wait for your third round project. Starting day 1 they have to show the team what they got. How coach-able they are. Tom Brady took the job.. Davis Webb didn't. He is still a third round project. He did nothing in year one to improve the perception.
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Your thread title seems deliberately provocative.
Regardless, I don't know if you noticed but all of last year's decision makers were fired.
Good point Eric. That may be inidication they were incompetent in their evaluation of how to use Webb last year. As well as many other things. The poster obviously wants us to draft a QB at #2 and wants to denigrate Webb. We have a new regime who are eminently qualified to evaluate Webb and his potential.
I am not out to denigrate Webb. Why would I have any presupposition on him. I wish he was great. But I think the way he was handled by the giants indicate he was not ready to play and he was so bad he got no practice reps. Cosell says this is how nfl teams work. You learn how they feel about a guy by how they use him. i think this is a much clearer indication of how they feel than people speculating about mcadoo being afraid and throwing geno smith out there. at some point mcadoo wasnt there and we still didnt see any webb and he still didnt get practice reps. all indications are that he was not ready to be a pro qb.
Better to subject disposable gene Smith to injury.
Better to subject disposable gene Smith to injury.
i seriously don't believe that is how nfl teams think. if you are ready, you play. it may be that the o-line was so bad that webb couldn't get ready, game too fast etc? but they made an investment in this guy and he never showed enough to progress. i believe that is how DG and PS will view it.
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In comment 13910805 Beer Man said:
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From the time they drafted Webb, it was reported that Geno would be the #2 and that Webb's rookie season would be like a Red Shirt year for him to learn the fundamentals of an NFL QB. Geno got the start because Ben & Jerry were trying to save their jobs, and wanted everyone to believe Eli was the problem and that a more mobile QB was needed to fix the Giants O.
This....
The Giants brass made it clear from DAY ONE that Webb was going to sit and learn his first year. Webb was a project pick that may or may not amount to anything for the Giants. But I think the premise that the Giants made a mistake in not playing him last season is false. The coaching staff was trying to save their collective asses and Geno...not Webb was the player most likely to prove that Eli was the problem.
I think many Webb supporters have the Webb equation badly flipped. Players are expected to come in and show what they have and learn and improve. It is up to the player to show the team they must play. This is true all over the NFL. Half of what team's tell the fans is total bullshit. And the other half is just cover their ass talking points. Get real. How long do you think you wait for your third round project. Starting day 1 they have to show the team what they got. How coach-able they are. Tom Brady took the job.. Davis Webb didn't. He is still a third round project. He did nothing in year one to improve the perception.
Brady came in after an injury to Bledsoe, and managed the game safely for the Defense and kicker to win the championship. This, after one of the worst calls in football history vs. the Raiders. The rest, as they say, is history.
Most importantly, it does seem that almost all aspects of the coaching last year were weak, including the development, motivation, training and deployment of players. As has been observed, when the team tanked, Webb should have been seriously tried out, that much is obvious.
Webb, though, is not the raw rookie third rounder, that Dak was. He did spend a whole year with the Giants, and has had the advantage of time with at least a "semi" professional team. He and Eli should now be carefully assessed, by a professional coaching team, and the best possible decision taken. If they mess up, it will be on them. But there is no reason why Webb should be discounted based on last year's incredibly inept mess up.
Most importantly, it does seem that almost all aspects of the coaching last year were weak, including the development, motivation, training and deployment of players. As has been observed, when the team tanked, Webb should have been seriously tried out, that much is obvious.
Webb, though, is not the raw rookie third rounder, that Dak was. He did spend a whole year with the Giants, and has had the advantage of time with at least a "semi" professional team. He and Eli should now be carefully assessed, by a professional coaching team, and the best possible decision taken. If they mess up, it will be on them. But there is no reason why Webb should be discounted based on last year's incredibly inept mess up.
well i agree that if DG and PS now have an opportunity to assess Webb, then that experience should figure most prominently in the evaluation. The point of my initial post was that the only interpretation from our experience with Webb up to this point is that he is probably not an NFL QB yet.
When was this?