Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

NGT: Jarvis Landry - 5 Year, $75M, $46M Guaranteed

Saos1n : 4/12/2018 11:14 am
$15M per year
Pages: 1 2 3 4 <<Prev | Show All |
.  
arcarsenal : 4/12/2018 2:39 pm : link
So why couldn't Ramses Barden catch 100 balls a year?

It's so easy!
who is disputing that Landry is slow?  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 2:40 pm : link
He still produces as much as Edelman.

And here's an article from FO that disputes your notion that Edelman can line up everywhere while Landry can only play in the slot. By their tracking Edelman was significantly worse when lined up out wide, while Landry's efficiency was actually better out wide than in the slot.
Link - ( New Window )
"Edelam isn't fast enough"  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 2:41 pm : link
was posted above.

But Landry ran a 4.77.

Edleman is an exceptional athlete even by NFL WR standards. He ran the 3 cone almost one full second faster than Landry.
and Landry ran a 4.51 at his Pro Day  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 2:41 pm : link
or we can really just base it by what happens in games. But that would backfire, right?
I said Edelman wasn't fast enough  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 2:43 pm : link
when talking about how he'd do outside of NE, not compared to Landry. You read it how you wanted to read it. And Edelman isn't 4.5 fast anymore, he simply isn't, so stop quoting his speed from a decade ago.
the far inferious athlete that you have described  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 2:45 pm : link
has put together better seasons in the NFL with bottom 5 QB play than the guy you are saying is soooo much better and faster and only gets the ole NE boost from playing with Brady.

Read that and let it sink in.
.  
arcarsenal : 4/12/2018 2:45 pm : link
Durability also matters.

Edelman has missed 41 games in his 8 year career.

Landry has missed 0 games in 4 years.

Being a better athlete doesn't mean shit if you aren't on the field.
inferior  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 2:46 pm : link
*
exceptional athlete  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 2:46 pm : link
with above average (at best) production. And at best, comparable production to Landry despite playing with much better teammates.

Tim Carter was a better athlete than Edelman but he still sucked.
Giants#1  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 2:46 pm : link
The speed thing was posted above.

Landry's lack of speed and size is one of the issues with the player. He's severely limited. Yes, he caught a lot of balls but there is more to it than catches. He can't beat one on one coverage and can't play outside. Edleman can.

My opinion was MIA made the right call taking the draft pick and not paying him. Instead they got a better player in Albert Wilson for much less. If MIA uses Wilson like they used Landry that will improve the team. He's a better player.

I felt any team taking on that contract would make a HUGE mistake. And now with these numbers I think its the worst contract of the year.

We'll see how it goes but I believe Landry will be a bust in CLE and will fall off the totem pole there very quickly.
Landry put together better seasons in the NFL  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 2:49 pm : link
Really? According to what? Number of catches on a losing team?

RE: Giants#1  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 2:49 pm : link
In comment 13911590 KWALL2 said:
Quote:

Landry's lack of speed and size is one of the issues with the player. He's severely limited. Yes, he caught a lot of balls but there is more to it than catches. He can't beat one on one coverage and can't play outside. Edleman can.



FootballOutsiders' disagrees with that.

Quote:


My opinion was MIA made the right call taking the draft pick and not paying him.


I felt any team taking on that contract would make a HUGE mistake. And now with these numbers I think its the worst contract of the year.


I agree with that as I said numerous times. This deal makes him severely overpaid. He's still an above average WR and at least as good as Edelman.
RE: Landry put together better seasons in the NFL  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13911600 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Really? According to what? Number of catches on a losing team?


His career highs in yards, yards/receptions, catch %, and TDs all top Edelman's career bests in those categories. In some categories by a significant margin.
.  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 2:54 pm : link
Quote:
FootballOutsiders' disagrees with that.


Once again they are wrong.
RE: .  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 2:55 pm : link
In comment 13911608 KWALL2 said:
Quote:


Quote:


FootballOutsiders' disagrees with that.



Once again they are wrong.


Can you show anything (outside of combine #s from 10 years ago) that agrees with your opinion? FO at least uses stats to form their arguments.
RE: Landry put together better seasons in the NFL  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13911600 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Really? According to what? Number of catches on a losing team?


You realize I can just as easily post again how Edelman played in NE and actually had the opportunity to play games when they matter, right?

Jarvis Landry had nothing to do with the Miami Dolphins being a bad football team. He did his job there and he did it very well.
I can start by pointing out  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 3:04 pm : link
Landry's combine was not 10 years ago.

Does that help?
RE: I can start by pointing out  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 3:14 pm : link
In comment 13911643 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Landry's combine was not 10 years ago.

Does that help?


You can, but what about his pro day and his actual on field speed and production, that again, points to him being just as effective or more effective catching the ball than Edelman?

You aren't doing a very good job proving your point.
His proday?  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 3:18 pm : link
Where he ran 4.6+ and a 3 cone that was slower than some OL?
hmm  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 3:20 pm : link
"Landry ran the 40-yard dash in 4.51 seconds – more than a tenth of a second better than his disappointing 4.65 time in the 40 at the NFL Combine last February in Indianapolis that featured various tests, agility drills and timings like Pro Day."

I don't even care at this point. He plays faster and better than the times you are quoting from 4 years ago which is 100% irrelevant now.
RE: I can start by pointing out  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 3:22 pm : link
In comment 13911643 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Landry's combine was not 10 years ago.

Does that help?


I was talking about Edelman's combine #s, but if you want to be obtuse, have at it.

You still haven't shown any on-field data that supports your claim of Edelman being a "much tougher cover".
I also addressed this "production" too  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 3:22 pm : link
I'm on record here saying the guy is going to be a 4th option in CLE, see a 60% reduction in targets, and getting cut after 2 years.

i explained why I feel this way and talked about this production of 3 yard patterns(40+% of his catches) and behind the LOS catches.

IMO, Edelman (before his latest injury) was a better NFL player, could do more, tougher matchup, and makes a team better. He was also a far superior athlete.

You stated he was too slow to make plays outside of NE while defending the much slower player.
hmmm..  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 3:24 pm : link
Landry was timed by many watches at his proday. Find a proday and you'll find a clock that was faster.

There were plenty with him at 4.6+ including NFL Draftscout which tries to get the best numbers on the proday.
RE: I also addressed this  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 3:26 pm : link
In comment 13911678 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
I'm on record here saying the guy is going to be a 4th option in CLE, see a 60% reduction in targets, and getting cut after 2 years.

i explained why I feel this way and talked about this production of 3 yard patterns(40+% of his catches) and behind the LOS catches.

IMO, Edelman (before his latest injury) was a better NFL player, could do more, tougher matchup, and makes a team better. He was also a far superior athlete.

You stated he was too slow to make plays outside of NE while defending the much slower player.


I'll assume you are talking to Uconn, because I never said anything about Edelman being too slow.

I'm still waiting for the stats that show he's a tougher matchup or that he can do more (FO's analysis of their 2016 stats show the opposite).

I eagerly await this season to see Landry only targeted 64 times...

Do you have a reference for your 3 yard pattern claim?
RE: Arc  
WillVAB : 4/12/2018 3:27 pm : link
In comment 13911290 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
We will see.

Coleman is better. Gordon is better. They'll draft Barkley. The TE is a bigger threat.

He'll struggle to even grab that 4th option title!


Coleman sucks. Another overrated speed guy who’s hurt all the time and runs shitty routes.
dude, I don't care about his times from 4 years ago  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 3:27 pm : link
I really don't. No one does, except people trying to make an argument that supports a case they can't otherwise make.

You think GM's say "hey, we know you have a lot of catches and look faster on the field but that damn shitty 40 time from 4 years ago must mean you are slow".

Players have bad combines all the time. Happens every year and always will. Why do i need to tell you this?
and for the 3rd time now  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 3:28 pm : link
I didn't say Edelman was slow. I said outside of NE he's isn't fast enough or big enough to be a big time threat. I didn't compare his speed to anyone's else's.
Why would Edleman  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 3:31 pm : link
(the faster player) struggle outside or NE, but Landry wont?

You did say that right?
HOW does Edelman make his team better?  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 3:32 pm : link
Yards/catch? Nope

Yards/target? Nope

Touchdowns/game? They both suck, but Landry scores 50% more often (on a per game basis)

First Downs/Target? Edge Landry (.39 vs .37)

First Downs/Game? Big edge Landry (3.5 vs 2.3)

So how is Edelman using this superior athleticism to destroy defenses?
RE: Why would Edleman  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 3:34 pm : link
In comment 13911711 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
(the faster player) struggle outside or NE, but Landry wont?

You did say that right?


Personally I think Edelman would still be a solid slot WR, but an argument can easily be made than an player would look better with Tom Brady than without. We know what Landry can do with shitty QB play.
RE: Why would Edleman  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 3:40 pm : link
In comment 13911711 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
(the faster player) struggle outside or NE, but Landry wont?

You did say that right?


Nope, wrong again. I never said he'd struggle or anything. I simply said he wouldn't be a top WR and certainly not as good as he was/is in NE. It was a response to Terps claiming Landry "Isn't close" to the player Edelman is.
YEs Landry can catch 45% of his catches under 3 yards  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 3:42 pm : link
This we know.

And guess what? The league is full of guys who do the same with that type of usage.

I think we've taken this far enough.

We'll see how it plays out.

I have nothing against the guy other than being an overrated player who can help you in a PPR fantasy league.

I do think he'll bust in CLE.

And I do think my guy Albert Wilson will blow up in MIA at less than half the cost of Landry. And MIA picked up a draft pick too.

MIA and Landry's bank account are the winners here.

CLE will be the big loser.
and outside of old combine times  
UConn4523 : 4/12/2018 3:45 pm : link
I still haven't seen anything to show he's a faster and better overall WR. Not even his stats on a far better team with the best QB in the history of the game can make the argument.

In 2016, arguably Edelmans best season, he had 30 more targets than Landry and still had less TD's, yards, and YPC and only 4 more catches. So what exactly is this massive difference between the two players?
Landry  
Dragon : 4/12/2018 3:45 pm : link
Will get the money the Browns just guaranteed that up to 46 mil, however he will never again see 160+ targets with the Browns. The problem with the Phins offense was 88% of the passing game was funneled thru Landry. Sure they got first downs but they could not get into the end zone sounds familiar where have we heard that before. He is not the type of player who will enjoy not being the primary guy on offense.
Dismissing the Brady factor is comical...  
bw in dc : 4/12/2018 3:59 pm : link
Ask Deion Branch, David Givens, Brandon LaFell, Brandon Lloyd, Reche Caldwell, etc how they fared when they left Brady and went to another team. (Even Welker fell off with Manning, but that may have been a combination of Manning falling off and too many shots to the head for Welker)

Not sure how to quantity it by the Brady Production Factor has to be 20%+ per player...
20%?  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 4:29 pm : link
Brady makes you more efficient and you win football games playing with him.

Playing with him does not mean your catches/yards/TDs jumps 20% or at all.

Cooks had better numbers with the Saints.

If Edleman went to MIA in Landry's role (or anywhere he was the main focus with 160 targets) you think he would see a 20% drop?
Edelman had 159 targets  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 4:37 pm : link
with the Patriots in 2016. Also had 151 targets with them in 2013.

Quit while you're behind.
And...  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 4:40 pm : link
What does that mean?

Its a lock his numbers would drop if those targets came with another team?

Thats BS.

Cooks had 117 targets his last year in NO.
114 in NE.

He had better numbers in NO.
Edleman  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 4:41 pm : link
151 targets and 105 catches with NE

Is your point, the catches would drop 20% or at all if he got the targets with another team?
Congrats  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 4:46 pm : link
You found the one player who's numbers were marginally worse with Brady. You do realize that Cooks played with another HOF QB in NO and in a dome for 9+ games vs the outdoor NE weather, right? And before you come up with some bullshit to dismiss the dome factor, in 2016 Cooks averaged 18.9 y/r at home and only 12.1 y/r on the road.

I'm sure Edelman would produce comparably if he were to play with Brees or with Rodgers. I'm guessing those claiming he'd see a hit to his numbers are referring to a hypothetical situation in which Edelman played with one of the 75% of NFL starters that aren't future first ballot HOFs.
RE: Edleman  
giants#1 : 4/12/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13911883 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
151 targets and 105 catches with NE

Is your point, the catches would drop 20% or at all if he got the targets with another team?


I didn't make any claims about what his numbers would be elsewhere. YOU implied that Landry only reached the yardage/TD totals because of volume and that Edelman would see similar volume elsewhere and would thus put up comparable #s (ignoring that his rate stats with a superior QB/team are comparable or worse). I then corrected the record and pointed out that we don't need to "guess" what Edelman would do with huge volume (160 tgts) since he's already seen that volume twice with Brady and the Pats.
What Matters  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 4/12/2018 5:56 pm : link
Is the price tag for OBJ's contract just went up.
RE: What Matters  
WillVAB : 4/12/2018 6:28 pm : link
In comment 13911987 Bavaro_the_Mafioso said:
Quote:
Is the price tag for OBJ's contract just went up.


No, he was going to get more than 15 mil per anyways.
How about Lafell's case?  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 8:08 pm : link
He was mentioned above.

2 seasons in NE, then 2 years of ball in 16 and 17 after leaving NE. Played with those HOF QBs in CIN.

NE: 193 targets - 111 catches - 1468 Yards - 7 TDs

CIN: 196 targets - 116 catches - 1410 Yards - 9 TDs

No drop. Same production with Dalton and Brady.
RE: How about Lafell's case?  
bw in dc : 4/12/2018 8:32 pm : link
In comment 13912142 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
He was mentioned above.

2 seasons in NE, then 2 years of ball in 16 and 17 after leaving NE. Played with those HOF QBs in CIN.

NE: 193 targets - 111 catches - 1468 Yards - 7 TDs

CIN: 196 targets - 116 catches - 1410 Yards - 9 TDs

No drop. Same production with Dalton and Brady.


Nice try. LaFell had two years in New England. His first year was a career best. In his second season, he got hurt and only played 11 games, and much more of part time role. So aggregating the numbers in two seasons over two seasons is misleading.
You miss something with those target numbers?  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 8:42 pm : link
And catches, catch %, YPC, YPA, and whatever else?

How about Brandon Lloyd?

2 seasons before NE were better than the 1 year in NE.
Lafell  
KWALL2 : 4/12/2018 8:49 pm : link
The career year in NE:
119 targets 74 catches 953 yards 12.9 YPC 7 TDs

Last year in CIN:
107 targets 64 catches 862 yards 13.5 YPC 6 TDs

That looks like the same player to me.
RE: I can start by pointing out  
One Man Thrill Ride : 4/12/2018 9:00 pm : link
In comment 13911643 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Landry's combine was not 10 years ago.

Does that help?


The Thrill is a big believer that athleticism matters in athletics. Sparq database and mockdraftable are tremendous resources.

Jarvis Landry is a bad athletic tester.

However, those tests became meaningless once he proved to be a useful NFL player. He's an outlier. There have been a few other "bad" athletes to succeed at skill positions. They too are outliers; football savants, spatial geniuses.

Since he's been in the league, his teams has asked him to run short routes and create after the catch. He has been exceptional in that role. Look how he stacks up vs Larry Fitzgerald

https://twitter.com/MikeClayNFL/status/984460835555807232

Now, are exclusive slot players worth $15M/season? Thrill says no -- it's not only a replenishable position, but also an opportunity for creative coaches to find mismatches for top-tier WR talent. Thrill posits that all recent per-play efficiency data indicates...

- passing (always) > running (the very worst passing O's are more effective than the best rushing O's)

- throw to RBs on early downs (it's stealing)

- aggressively deploy best WR/TE in slot (better matchups/more space/easier completions)


...thus, although Jarvis Landry is a very good player and among the best at what he does, the Browns might have been better off spending a fraction of that $75M on a stable slot player and saving slot targets for Josh Gordon, David Njoku, and Duke Johnson ...and perhaps even Saquon.

Recap: Agree Landry is overpaid; Disagree that he's not a useful player bc his flunked athletic tests and has a low ypc
RE: RE: What Matters  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 4/12/2018 9:17 pm : link
In comment 13912017 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13911987 Bavaro_the_Mafioso said:


Quote:


Is the price tag for OBJ's contract just went up.



No, he was going to get more than 15 mil per anyways.


Obviously. And, if a good Landry is worth 15 per year, is an outstanding OBJ worth 20? 21?
Mike Lombardi on Twitter  
Go Terps : 4/13/2018 12:23 pm : link
Michael Lombardi
Michael Lombardi
@mlombardiNFL
·
4h
I cannot wait to see the real numbers of the Landry contract--that's a huge deal for a player that has only 24 +25 yard plays in his NFL career. Paying for the volume of catches over yards is staggering
Pages: 1 2 3 4 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner