And here's an article from FO that disputes your notion that Edelman can line up everywhere while Landry can only play in the slot. By their tracking Edelman was significantly worse when lined up out wide, while Landry's efficiency was actually better out wide than in the slot. Link - ( New Window )
when talking about how he'd do outside of NE, not compared to Landry. You read it how you wanted to read it. And Edelman isn't 4.5 fast anymore, he simply isn't, so stop quoting his speed from a decade ago.
the far inferious athlete that you have described Â
has put together better seasons in the NFL with bottom 5 QB play than the guy you are saying is soooo much better and faster and only gets the ole NE boost from playing with Brady.
Landry's lack of speed and size is one of the issues with the player. He's severely limited. Yes, he caught a lot of balls but there is more to it than catches. He can't beat one on one coverage and can't play outside. Edleman can.
My opinion was MIA made the right call taking the draft pick and not paying him. Instead they got a better player in Albert Wilson for much less. If MIA uses Wilson like they used Landry that will improve the team. He's a better player.
I felt any team taking on that contract would make a HUGE mistake. And now with these numbers I think its the worst contract of the year.
We'll see how it goes but I believe Landry will be a bust in CLE and will fall off the totem pole there very quickly.
Landry's lack of speed and size is one of the issues with the player. He's severely limited. Yes, he caught a lot of balls but there is more to it than catches. He can't beat one on one coverage and can't play outside. Edleman can.
FootballOutsiders' disagrees with that.
Quote:
My opinion was MIA made the right call taking the draft pick and not paying him.
I felt any team taking on that contract would make a HUGE mistake. And now with these numbers I think its the worst contract of the year.
I agree with that as I said numerous times. This deal makes him severely overpaid. He's still an above average WR and at least as good as Edelman.
RE: Landry put together better seasons in the NFL Â
Really? According to what? Number of catches on a losing team?
His career highs in yards, yards/receptions, catch %, and TDs all top Edelman's career bests in those categories. In some categories by a significant margin.
You can, but what about his pro day and his actual on field speed and production, that again, points to him being just as effective or more effective catching the ball than Edelman?
You aren't doing a very good job proving your point.
"Landry ran the 40-yard dash in 4.51 seconds – more than a tenth of a second better than his disappointing 4.65 time in the 40 at the NFL Combine last February in Indianapolis that featured various tests, agility drills and timings like Pro Day."
I don't even care at this point. He plays faster and better than the times you are quoting from 4 years ago which is 100% irrelevant now.
I'm on record here saying the guy is going to be a 4th option in CLE, see a 60% reduction in targets, and getting cut after 2 years.
i explained why I feel this way and talked about this production of 3 yard patterns(40+% of his catches) and behind the LOS catches.
IMO, Edelman (before his latest injury) was a better NFL player, could do more, tougher matchup, and makes a team better. He was also a far superior athlete.
You stated he was too slow to make plays outside of NE while defending the much slower player.
I'm on record here saying the guy is going to be a 4th option in CLE, see a 60% reduction in targets, and getting cut after 2 years.
i explained why I feel this way and talked about this production of 3 yard patterns(40+% of his catches) and behind the LOS catches.
IMO, Edelman (before his latest injury) was a better NFL player, could do more, tougher matchup, and makes a team better. He was also a far superior athlete.
You stated he was too slow to make plays outside of NE while defending the much slower player.
I'll assume you are talking to Uconn, because I never said anything about Edelman being too slow.
I'm still waiting for the stats that show he's a tougher matchup or that he can do more (FO's analysis of their 2016 stats show the opposite).
I eagerly await this season to see Landry only targeted 64 times...
Do you have a reference for your 3 yard pattern claim?
I really don't. No one does, except people trying to make an argument that supports a case they can't otherwise make.
You think GM's say "hey, we know you have a lot of catches and look faster on the field but that damn shitty 40 time from 4 years ago must mean you are slow".
Players have bad combines all the time. Happens every year and always will. Why do i need to tell you this?
I didn't say Edelman was slow. I said outside of NE he's isn't fast enough or big enough to be a big time threat. I didn't compare his speed to anyone's else's.
(the faster player) struggle outside or NE, but Landry wont?
You did say that right?
Personally I think Edelman would still be a solid slot WR, but an argument can easily be made than an player would look better with Tom Brady than without. We know what Landry can do with shitty QB play.
(the faster player) struggle outside or NE, but Landry wont?
You did say that right?
Nope, wrong again. I never said he'd struggle or anything. I simply said he wouldn't be a top WR and certainly not as good as he was/is in NE. It was a response to Terps claiming Landry "Isn't close" to the player Edelman is.
YEs Landry can catch 45% of his catches under 3 yards Â
I still haven't seen anything to show he's a faster and better overall WR. Not even his stats on a far better team with the best QB in the history of the game can make the argument.
In 2016, arguably Edelmans best season, he had 30 more targets than Landry and still had less TD's, yards, and YPC and only 4 more catches. So what exactly is this massive difference between the two players?
Will get the money the Browns just guaranteed that up to 46 mil, however he will never again see 160+ targets with the Browns. The problem with the Phins offense was 88% of the passing game was funneled thru Landry. Sure they got first downs but they could not get into the end zone sounds familiar where have we heard that before. He is not the type of player who will enjoy not being the primary guy on offense.
Ask Deion Branch, David Givens, Brandon LaFell, Brandon Lloyd, Reche Caldwell, etc how they fared when they left Brady and went to another team. (Even Welker fell off with Manning, but that may have been a combination of Manning falling off and too many shots to the head for Welker)
Not sure how to quantity it by the Brady Production Factor has to be 20%+ per player...
You found the one player who's numbers were marginally worse with Brady. You do realize that Cooks played with another HOF QB in NO and in a dome for 9+ games vs the outdoor NE weather, right? And before you come up with some bullshit to dismiss the dome factor, in 2016 Cooks averaged 18.9 y/r at home and only 12.1 y/r on the road.
I'm sure Edelman would produce comparably if he were to play with Brees or with Rodgers. I'm guessing those claiming he'd see a hit to his numbers are referring to a hypothetical situation in which Edelman played with one of the 75% of NFL starters that aren't future first ballot HOFs.
Is your point, the catches would drop 20% or at all if he got the targets with another team?
I didn't make any claims about what his numbers would be elsewhere. YOU implied that Landry only reached the yardage/TD totals because of volume and that Edelman would see similar volume elsewhere and would thus put up comparable #s (ignoring that his rate stats with a superior QB/team are comparable or worse). I then corrected the record and pointed out that we don't need to "guess" what Edelman would do with huge volume (160 tgts) since he's already seen that volume twice with Brady and the Pats.
Nice try. LaFell had two years in New England. His first year was a career best. In his second season, he got hurt and only played 11 games, and much more of part time role. So aggregating the numbers in two seasons over two seasons is misleading.
The Thrill is a big believer that athleticism matters in athletics. Sparq database and mockdraftable are tremendous resources.
Jarvis Landry is a bad athletic tester.
However, those tests became meaningless once he proved to be a useful NFL player. He's an outlier. There have been a few other "bad" athletes to succeed at skill positions. They too are outliers; football savants, spatial geniuses.
Since he's been in the league, his teams has asked him to run short routes and create after the catch. He has been exceptional in that role. Look how he stacks up vs Larry Fitzgerald
Now, are exclusive slot players worth $15M/season? Thrill says no -- it's not only a replenishable position, but also an opportunity for creative coaches to find mismatches for top-tier WR talent. Thrill posits that all recent per-play efficiency data indicates...
- passing (always) > running (the very worst passing O's are more effective than the best rushing O's)
- throw to RBs on early downs (it's stealing)
- aggressively deploy best WR/TE in slot (better matchups/more space/easier completions)
...thus, although Jarvis Landry is a very good player and among the best at what he does, the Browns might have been better off spending a fraction of that $75M on a stable slot player and saving slot targets for Josh Gordon, David Njoku, and Duke Johnson ...and perhaps even Saquon.
Recap: Agree Landry is overpaid; Disagree that he's not a useful player bc his flunked athletic tests and has a low ypc
Michael Lombardi
Michael Lombardi
@mlombardiNFL
·
4h
I cannot wait to see the real numbers of the Landry contract--that's a huge deal for a player that has only 24 +25 yard plays in his NFL career. Paying for the volume of catches over yards is staggering
It's so easy!
And here's an article from FO that disputes your notion that Edelman can line up everywhere while Landry can only play in the slot. By their tracking Edelman was significantly worse when lined up out wide, while Landry's efficiency was actually better out wide than in the slot.
Link - ( New Window )
But Landry ran a 4.77.
Edleman is an exceptional athlete even by NFL WR standards. He ran the 3 cone almost one full second faster than Landry.
Read that and let it sink in.
Edelman has missed 41 games in his 8 year career.
Landry has missed 0 games in 4 years.
Being a better athlete doesn't mean shit if you aren't on the field.
Tim Carter was a better athlete than Edelman but he still sucked.
Landry's lack of speed and size is one of the issues with the player. He's severely limited. Yes, he caught a lot of balls but there is more to it than catches. He can't beat one on one coverage and can't play outside. Edleman can.
My opinion was MIA made the right call taking the draft pick and not paying him. Instead they got a better player in Albert Wilson for much less. If MIA uses Wilson like they used Landry that will improve the team. He's a better player.
I felt any team taking on that contract would make a HUGE mistake. And now with these numbers I think its the worst contract of the year.
We'll see how it goes but I believe Landry will be a bust in CLE and will fall off the totem pole there very quickly.
Landry's lack of speed and size is one of the issues with the player. He's severely limited. Yes, he caught a lot of balls but there is more to it than catches. He can't beat one on one coverage and can't play outside. Edleman can.
FootballOutsiders' disagrees with that.
My opinion was MIA made the right call taking the draft pick and not paying him.
I felt any team taking on that contract would make a HUGE mistake. And now with these numbers I think its the worst contract of the year.
I agree with that as I said numerous times. This deal makes him severely overpaid. He's still an above average WR and at least as good as Edelman.
His career highs in yards, yards/receptions, catch %, and TDs all top Edelman's career bests in those categories. In some categories by a significant margin.
Once again they are wrong.
Quote:
FootballOutsiders' disagrees with that.
Once again they are wrong.
Can you show anything (outside of combine #s from 10 years ago) that agrees with your opinion? FO at least uses stats to form their arguments.
You realize I can just as easily post again how Edelman played in NE and actually had the opportunity to play games when they matter, right?
Jarvis Landry had nothing to do with the Miami Dolphins being a bad football team. He did his job there and he did it very well.
Does that help?
Does that help?
You can, but what about his pro day and his actual on field speed and production, that again, points to him being just as effective or more effective catching the ball than Edelman?
You aren't doing a very good job proving your point.
I don't even care at this point. He plays faster and better than the times you are quoting from 4 years ago which is 100% irrelevant now.
Does that help?
I was talking about Edelman's combine #s, but if you want to be obtuse, have at it.
You still haven't shown any on-field data that supports your claim of Edelman being a "much tougher cover".
i explained why I feel this way and talked about this production of 3 yard patterns(40+% of his catches) and behind the LOS catches.
IMO, Edelman (before his latest injury) was a better NFL player, could do more, tougher matchup, and makes a team better. He was also a far superior athlete.
You stated he was too slow to make plays outside of NE while defending the much slower player.
There were plenty with him at 4.6+ including NFL Draftscout which tries to get the best numbers on the proday.
i explained why I feel this way and talked about this production of 3 yard patterns(40+% of his catches) and behind the LOS catches.
IMO, Edelman (before his latest injury) was a better NFL player, could do more, tougher matchup, and makes a team better. He was also a far superior athlete.
You stated he was too slow to make plays outside of NE while defending the much slower player.
I'll assume you are talking to Uconn, because I never said anything about Edelman being too slow.
I'm still waiting for the stats that show he's a tougher matchup or that he can do more (FO's analysis of their 2016 stats show the opposite).
I eagerly await this season to see Landry only targeted 64 times...
Do you have a reference for your 3 yard pattern claim?
Coleman is better. Gordon is better. They'll draft Barkley. The TE is a bigger threat.
He'll struggle to even grab that 4th option title!
Coleman sucks. Another overrated speed guy who’s hurt all the time and runs shitty routes.
You think GM's say "hey, we know you have a lot of catches and look faster on the field but that damn shitty 40 time from 4 years ago must mean you are slow".
Players have bad combines all the time. Happens every year and always will. Why do i need to tell you this?
You did say that right?
Yards/target? Nope
Touchdowns/game? They both suck, but Landry scores 50% more often (on a per game basis)
First Downs/Target? Edge Landry (.39 vs .37)
First Downs/Game? Big edge Landry (3.5 vs 2.3)
So how is Edelman using this superior athleticism to destroy defenses?
You did say that right?
Personally I think Edelman would still be a solid slot WR, but an argument can easily be made than an player would look better with Tom Brady than without. We know what Landry can do with shitty QB play.
You did say that right?
Nope, wrong again. I never said he'd struggle or anything. I simply said he wouldn't be a top WR and certainly not as good as he was/is in NE. It was a response to Terps claiming Landry "Isn't close" to the player Edelman is.
And guess what? The league is full of guys who do the same with that type of usage.
I think we've taken this far enough.
We'll see how it plays out.
I have nothing against the guy other than being an overrated player who can help you in a PPR fantasy league.
I do think he'll bust in CLE.
And I do think my guy Albert Wilson will blow up in MIA at less than half the cost of Landry. And MIA picked up a draft pick too.
MIA and Landry's bank account are the winners here.
CLE will be the big loser.
In 2016, arguably Edelmans best season, he had 30 more targets than Landry and still had less TD's, yards, and YPC and only 4 more catches. So what exactly is this massive difference between the two players?
Not sure how to quantity it by the Brady Production Factor has to be 20%+ per player...
Playing with him does not mean your catches/yards/TDs jumps 20% or at all.
Cooks had better numbers with the Saints.
If Edleman went to MIA in Landry's role (or anywhere he was the main focus with 160 targets) you think he would see a 20% drop?
Quit while you're behind.
Its a lock his numbers would drop if those targets came with another team?
Thats BS.
Cooks had 117 targets his last year in NO.
114 in NE.
He had better numbers in NO.
Is your point, the catches would drop 20% or at all if he got the targets with another team?
I'm sure Edelman would produce comparably if he were to play with Brees or with Rodgers. I'm guessing those claiming he'd see a hit to his numbers are referring to a hypothetical situation in which Edelman played with one of the 75% of NFL starters that aren't future first ballot HOFs.
Is your point, the catches would drop 20% or at all if he got the targets with another team?
I didn't make any claims about what his numbers would be elsewhere. YOU implied that Landry only reached the yardage/TD totals because of volume and that Edelman would see similar volume elsewhere and would thus put up comparable #s (ignoring that his rate stats with a superior QB/team are comparable or worse). I then corrected the record and pointed out that we don't need to "guess" what Edelman would do with huge volume (160 tgts) since he's already seen that volume twice with Brady and the Pats.
No, he was going to get more than 15 mil per anyways.
2 seasons in NE, then 2 years of ball in 16 and 17 after leaving NE. Played with those HOF QBs in CIN.
NE: 193 targets - 111 catches - 1468 Yards - 7 TDs
CIN: 196 targets - 116 catches - 1410 Yards - 9 TDs
No drop. Same production with Dalton and Brady.
2 seasons in NE, then 2 years of ball in 16 and 17 after leaving NE. Played with those HOF QBs in CIN.
NE: 193 targets - 111 catches - 1468 Yards - 7 TDs
CIN: 196 targets - 116 catches - 1410 Yards - 9 TDs
No drop. Same production with Dalton and Brady.
Nice try. LaFell had two years in New England. His first year was a career best. In his second season, he got hurt and only played 11 games, and much more of part time role. So aggregating the numbers in two seasons over two seasons is misleading.
How about Brandon Lloyd?
2 seasons before NE were better than the 1 year in NE.
119 targets 74 catches 953 yards 12.9 YPC 7 TDs
Last year in CIN:
107 targets 64 catches 862 yards 13.5 YPC 6 TDs
That looks like the same player to me.
Does that help?
The Thrill is a big believer that athleticism matters in athletics. Sparq database and mockdraftable are tremendous resources.
Jarvis Landry is a bad athletic tester.
However, those tests became meaningless once he proved to be a useful NFL player. He's an outlier. There have been a few other "bad" athletes to succeed at skill positions. They too are outliers; football savants, spatial geniuses.
Since he's been in the league, his teams has asked him to run short routes and create after the catch. He has been exceptional in that role. Look how he stacks up vs Larry Fitzgerald
https://twitter.com/MikeClayNFL/status/984460835555807232
Now, are exclusive slot players worth $15M/season? Thrill says no -- it's not only a replenishable position, but also an opportunity for creative coaches to find mismatches for top-tier WR talent. Thrill posits that all recent per-play efficiency data indicates...
- passing (always) > running (the very worst passing O's are more effective than the best rushing O's)
- throw to RBs on early downs (it's stealing)
- aggressively deploy best WR/TE in slot (better matchups/more space/easier completions)
...thus, although Jarvis Landry is a very good player and among the best at what he does, the Browns might have been better off spending a fraction of that $75M on a stable slot player and saving slot targets for Josh Gordon, David Njoku, and Duke Johnson ...and perhaps even Saquon.
Recap: Agree Landry is overpaid; Disagree that he's not a useful player bc his flunked athletic tests and has a low ypc
Quote:
Is the price tag for OBJ's contract just went up.
No, he was going to get more than 15 mil per anyways.
Obviously. And, if a good Landry is worth 15 per year, is an outstanding OBJ worth 20? 21?
Michael Lombardi
@mlombardiNFL
·
4h
I cannot wait to see the real numbers of the Landry contract--that's a huge deal for a player that has only 24 +25 yard plays in his NFL career. Paying for the volume of catches over yards is staggering