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Justifying taking Barkley at #2

DonnieD89 : 4/14/2018 9:43 am
After reading John Fox's article, I came away wondering the way Fox describes utilizing Barkley would extend his career. My thought was just the presence of Barkley along with OBJ, Shepherd and Engram would pose more of a problem in defensing such a line up. At the same time, would this give less touches to Barkley, creating a less wear and tear of a RB. Could using Barkley as an all purpose weapon as opposed to a pound the rock running back extend his career given the other weapons on the field? Just a thought.
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Imagine you're an nfl defensive coordinator,  
Ira : 4/14/2018 12:04 pm : link
and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?
RE: RE: Some of my questions on Barkley  
allstarjim : 4/14/2018 12:10 pm : link
In comment 13913887 superspynyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13913885 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


Revolve around him staying injury free

I have 2 concerns. Knee injuries.

The way he cuts it seems like he is bound to tear an ACL at some point.

The second is his penchant for leaping over defenders. I think that style might get him killed in the NFL.



Other plays have more injuries than Barkley does.

What works in his favor is his elusiveness to not take that huge hit.ohhewill get hit the the impact will be less than a bruiser like Marshawn Lynch was


Correct. That's what is very impressive about Barkley, you rarely see him take big hits. He is adept at avoiding them, and he protects his body well when he knows there is nothing left to get. I think it will serve him well.

Emmitt Smith is the classic example of a guy that didn't take a lot of big hits, and knew when to go down and protect himself. That's why he had such a long career. And he wasn't nearly as agile as Barkley, he just knew how to protect his body. I think Barkley is a good bet to play 10 years.
Barkley runs like his idol Barry Sanders...  
GFAN52 : 4/14/2018 12:11 pm : link
who had a 10 year career and still retired near performing a high level.
RE: a larger version of Reggie Bush  
allstarjim : 4/14/2018 12:23 pm : link
In comment 13913919 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
is what Fox is saying. You don't take receiving backs at #2. You take guys who can carry the rock 25 times AND catch, like Fournette or Gurley.

The Happy Valley Hype Train has been at full steam for this guy. Buyer Beware.


Barkley has proven he can be a 25 carry guy. I think it's less about the carries than it is about touches for him, though.

He is not all hype, either. It shows up on tape, on the stat sheet, and in his measurables.

The Bush comparison is unfair because Bush was a perimeter guy really and he didn't have the body to run between the tackles like Barkley does. Bush was also more of a 10-12 carry guy, and even in college he was a complimentary back, part of a two-headed rush attack. Most will remember the "pound the rock"/between the tackles running back for USC during Bush's big years was LenDale White. Barkley was nearly the entire offense for Penn State the last two seasons in particular.

That USC team had, in addition to Bush and White, Dwayne Jarrett, Steve Smith, and Matt Leinart under center. Defenses could not zero in on one player, they had to play straight up. Not so on the Nittany Lions, who hasn't really had a QB to fear, or much outside at receiver (Godwin in 2016).

IMO there is nothing to beware with when it comes to Saquon Barkley. As an offensive weapon, there have been few to come out of the draft of his caliber...ever. I think the closest comp to him is LaDainian Tomlinson. I have him as better than Faulk, but Faulk being his floor.

Call me crazy if you want...but this guy is the goods. I rarely have a conviction like this on a guy, he is a future Hall of Famer if he stays healthy, that's the kind of talent he has.

Two words  
Vanzetti : 4/14/2018 12:24 pm : link
Reggie Bush

Last RB to be taken at # 2


And if anything, he was more hyped than Barkley.
RE: Imagine you're an nfl defensive coordinator,  
allstarjim : 4/14/2018 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13913992 Ira said:
Quote:
and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?


I wouldn't want my job security based on having to stop that offense.
RE: RE: a larger version of Reggie Bush  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 4/14/2018 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13914005 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13913919 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


is what Fox is saying. You don't take receiving backs at #2. You take guys who can carry the rock 25 times AND catch, like Fournette or Gurley.

The Happy Valley Hype Train has been at full steam for this guy. Buyer Beware.



Barkley has proven he can be a 25 carry guy. I think it's less about the carries than it is about touches for him, though.

He is not all hype, either. It shows up on tape, on the stat sheet, and in his measurables.

The Bush comparison is unfair because Bush was a perimeter guy really and he didn't have the body to run between the tackles like Barkley does. Bush was also more of a 10-12 carry guy, and even in college he was a complimentary back, part of a two-headed rush attack. Most will remember the "pound the rock"/between the tackles running back for USC during Bush's big years was LenDale White. Barkley was nearly the entire offense for Penn State the last two seasons in particular.

That USC team had, in addition to Bush and White, Dwayne Jarrett, Steve Smith, and Matt Leinart under center. Defenses could not zero in on one player, they had to play straight up. Not so on the Nittany Lions, who hasn't really had a QB to fear, or much outside at receiver (Godwin in 2016).

IMO there is nothing to beware with when it comes to Saquon Barkley. As an offensive weapon, there have been few to come out of the draft of his caliber...ever. I think the closest comp to him is LaDainian Tomlinson. I have him as better than Faulk, but Faulk being his floor.

Call me crazy if you want...but this guy is the goods. I rarely have a conviction like this on a guy, he is a future Hall of Famer if he stays healthy, that's the kind of talent he has.


Ive read alot of your prospect takes. You have a good eye for talent. I totally agree with your take on Saquon. He is the best weapon in this draft bar none. And therare 'transformational' player outside of the QB position.
RE: RE: Imagine you're an nfl defensive coordinator,  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 4/14/2018 12:38 pm : link
In comment 13914007 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13913992 Ira said:


Quote:


and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?



I wouldn't want my job security based on having to stop that offense.


Teams sold out vs our passing game and Odell basically daring us to run every game. And between the combination of McAdoos coaching and schematic ineptitude, bad OL play, and mediocre RBs we couldnt do it.

If DG completes the retooling of the OL with a plug and play OL or 2 in the draft and then we draft Saquon....watch out.

Shurmur knows how to utilize multi-purpose backs.
RE: RE: Imagine you're an nfl defensive coordinator,  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 4/14/2018 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13914007 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13913992 Ira said:


Quote:


and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?



I wouldn't want my job security based on having to stop that offense.


Teams sold out vs our passing game and Odell basically daring us to run every game. And between the combination of McAdoos coaching and schematic ineptitude, bad OL play, and mediocre RBs we couldnt do it.

If DG completes the retooling of the OL with a plug and play OL or 2 in the draft and then we draft Saquon....watch out.

Shurmur knows how to utilize multi-purpose backs.
RE: RE: a larger version of Reggie Bush  
DonnieD89 : 4/14/2018 12:45 pm : link
In comment 13914005 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13913919 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


is what Fox is saying. You don't take receiving backs at #2. You take guys who can carry the rock 25 times AND catch, like Fournette or Gurley.

The Happy Valley Hype Train has been at full steam for this guy. Buyer Beware.



Barkley has proven he can be a 25 carry guy. I think it's less about the carries than it is about touches for him, though.

He is not all hype, either. It shows up on tape, on the stat sheet, and in his measurables.

The Bush comparison is unfair because Bush was a perimeter guy really and he didn't have the body to run between the tackles like Barkley does. Bush was also more of a 10-12 carry guy, and even in college he was a complimentary back, part of a two-headed rush attack. Most will remember the "pound the rock"/between the tackles running back for USC during Bush's big years was LenDale White. Barkley was nearly the entire offense for Penn State the last two seasons in particular.

That USC team had, in addition to Bush and White, Dwayne Jarrett, Steve Smith, and Matt Leinart under center. Defenses could not zero in on one player, they had to play straight up. Not so on the Nittany Lions, who hasn't really had a QB to fear, or much outside at receiver (Godwin in 2016).

IMO there is nothing to beware with when it comes to Saquon Barkley. As an offensive weapon, there have been few to come out of the draft of his caliber...ever. I think the closest comp to him is LaDainian Tomlinson. I have him as better than Faulk, but Faulk being his floor.

Call me crazy if you want...but this guy is the goods. I rarely have a conviction like this on a guy, he is a future Hall of Famer if he stays healthy, that's the kind of talent he has.
RE: RE: RE: a larger version of Reggie Bush  
allstarjim : 4/14/2018 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13914015 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13914005 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 13913919 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


is what Fox is saying. You don't take receiving backs at #2. You take guys who can carry the rock 25 times AND catch, like Fournette or Gurley.

The Happy Valley Hype Train has been at full steam for this guy. Buyer Beware.



Barkley has proven he can be a 25 carry guy. I think it's less about the carries than it is about touches for him, though.

He is not all hype, either. It shows up on tape, on the stat sheet, and in his measurables.

The Bush comparison is unfair because Bush was a perimeter guy really and he didn't have the body to run between the tackles like Barkley does. Bush was also more of a 10-12 carry guy, and even in college he was a complimentary back, part of a two-headed rush attack. Most will remember the "pound the rock"/between the tackles running back for USC during Bush's big years was LenDale White. Barkley was nearly the entire offense for Penn State the last two seasons in particular.

That USC team had, in addition to Bush and White, Dwayne Jarrett, Steve Smith, and Matt Leinart under center. Defenses could not zero in on one player, they had to play straight up. Not so on the Nittany Lions, who hasn't really had a QB to fear, or much outside at receiver (Godwin in 2016).

IMO there is nothing to beware with when it comes to Saquon Barkley. As an offensive weapon, there have been few to come out of the draft of his caliber...ever. I think the closest comp to him is LaDainian Tomlinson. I have him as better than Faulk, but Faulk being his floor.

Call me crazy if you want...but this guy is the goods. I rarely have a conviction like this on a guy, he is a future Hall of Famer if he stays healthy, that's the kind of talent he has.




Ive read alot of your prospect takes. You have a good eye for talent. I totally agree with your take on Saquon. He is the best weapon in this draft bar none. And therare 'transformational' player outside of the QB position.


Thanks, I really appreciate it.
Another flash move  
QB Snacks : 4/14/2018 12:52 pm : link
By a team that needs substance and grit
RE: RE: I wouldn't be surprised to see Barkley fall  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/14/2018 1:07 pm : link
In comment 13913958 bigbluescot said:
Quote:
In comment 13913948 gggggggmen said:


Quote:


Nothing against the talent, but If 4 QBs go in top 5, and Cleveland opts for Chubb, I can see the Colts going Nelson to protect Luck and the Bucs could choose between him and Minkah. It really comes down to the elite talent at a downstream position (RB) or a great talent at a more impactful upstream position (DE, OL, CB)



Funny you mention the Bucs, because in all the talk of trades. This trade seems pretty plausible

The Bucs have pick #7, pick #38, and then nothing until pick #102. Based on past trades I think it'd look something like this:


Bills trade 12, 56, & 96 to the Bucs for 7 (14% premium, a little above typical for a 5-10 pick)

Bills trade 7, 22, and a 2019 2nd to the Giants for 2 (37% premium, a little under the Jets' premium, but above the typical premium from 2011-2017)

Bills would have picks 2, 53, 65, 121, 166, 187 (122.42, down from 167)

Giants would have 7, 22, 34, 66, 69, 108, 139, and the Bills 2019 2nd (192.15, up from 157.85)

Bucs would have 12, 38, 56, 96, 102, 144, 180, 202, and 255 (122.25, up from 111.97)

You can add a couple of additional picks to either side of the trade (maybe an additional 3rd for the Giants), but it functionally gives all 3 teams decent value.

I would have zero interest in trading down without getting a 2019 1st as part of the package. If the Giants are not taking a QB this year, they should at least acquire the draft capital to go up and get one next year. Even if you believe in Webb, I don't think it would be prudent to put all our eggs in that basket at this point.

Look no further than your own post for how much it's costing the Bills to potentially trade into the top 3, and that's WITH two 1st round picks as a starting point. If the Giants are sitting there in a year with a single 1st round pick in the 12-16 range, they'd have to gut multiple years worth of draft capital to move up to get a QB if they wound up needing to.
RE: If the Giants...  
OBJRoyal : 4/14/2018 1:08 pm : link
In comment 13913938 firedbytheboss said:
Quote:
... take Barkley at #2 they should be run out of town.

The "Locked on NFL Draft" podcast did a mock draft where team beat writers made picks for each team. They are praying for the Giants to take Barkley at 2. they are laughing at the Giants if they consider Barkley at 2. The jets beat writers were thrilled to have Rosen land to them. The Broncos beat writers were adamant that the Broncos would never consider Barkley at #5.

Oh yeah, the Broncos couldn’t use Barkley. Just stop. Just because they can draft a QB doesn’t mean they couldn’t use Barkley.

We are talking the best player in the draft, not a project

Barkley at #2 is totally foolish, especially WHEN YOU NEED A QUARTERBACK.
Saquon Barkley  
GoBlue6599 : 4/14/2018 1:12 pm : link
Nice player who I don't think will be worth the 2nd pick.. his value IMO is in the 10-20 range.. We'll have to wait and see but this is a RB rich draft and we don't know if Saquon will be the most productive back in this class .. look at Hunt and Kamara last year both 3rd round picks
RE: RE: RE: I wouldn't be surprised to see Barkley fall  
bigbluescot : 4/14/2018 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13914041 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13913958 bigbluescot said:


Quote:


In comment 13913948 gggggggmen said:


Quote:


Nothing against the talent, but If 4 QBs go in top 5, and Cleveland opts for Chubb, I can see the Colts going Nelson to protect Luck and the Bucs could choose between him and Minkah. It really comes down to the elite talent at a downstream position (RB) or a great talent at a more impactful upstream position (DE, OL, CB)



Funny you mention the Bucs, because in all the talk of trades. This trade seems pretty plausible

The Bucs have pick #7, pick #38, and then nothing until pick #102. Based on past trades I think it'd look something like this:


Bills trade 12, 56, & 96 to the Bucs for 7 (14% premium, a little above typical for a 5-10 pick)

Bills trade 7, 22, and a 2019 2nd to the Giants for 2 (37% premium, a little under the Jets' premium, but above the typical premium from 2011-2017)

Bills would have picks 2, 53, 65, 121, 166, 187 (122.42, down from 167)

Giants would have 7, 22, 34, 66, 69, 108, 139, and the Bills 2019 2nd (192.15, up from 157.85)

Bucs would have 12, 38, 56, 96, 102, 144, 180, 202, and 255 (122.25, up from 111.97)

You can add a couple of additional picks to either side of the trade (maybe an additional 3rd for the Giants), but it functionally gives all 3 teams decent value.


I would have zero interest in trading down without getting a 2019 1st as part of the package. If the Giants are not taking a QB this year, they should at least acquire the draft capital to go up and get one next year. Even if you believe in Webb, I don't think it would be prudent to put all our eggs in that basket at this point.

Look no further than your own post for how much it's costing the Bills to potentially trade into the top 3, and that's WITH two 1st round picks as a starting point. If the Giants are sitting there in a year with a single 1st round pick in the 12-16 range, they'd have to gut multiple years worth of draft capital to move up to get a QB if they wound up needing to.


The entire notion of trading back is based on the notion that the Giants are only happy with one QB at 2 (Darnold) and what they'd do if he's not available. Personally, if the medicals check out I'd be fine with Darnold or Rosen, but I'm having a hard time justifying an RB or a guard at 2, and I can't shake the feeling that if Mack, Garrett and Bosa were in this draft, Chubb would comfortably be the fourth best.
combaring Barkely  
mdthedream : 4/14/2018 3:16 pm : link
a 234 lb RB to Reggie Bush 200 lbs is a joke. Please they are two different kind of guys. Bush is small and that is the big issue there.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I wouldn't be surprised to see Barkley fall  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/14/2018 3:21 pm : link
In comment 13914109 bigbluescot said:
Quote:
The entire notion of trading back is based on the notion that the Giants are only happy with one QB at 2 (Darnold) and what they'd do if he's not available. Personally, if the medicals check out I'd be fine with Darnold or Rosen, but I'm having a hard time justifying an RB or a guard at 2, and I can't shake the feeling that if Mack, Garrett and Bosa were in this draft, Chubb would comfortably be the fourth best.

I understand the premise. My point is, if they pass on a QB this year (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't - that's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make), they really have to set themselves up with at least the opportunity to trade up next year for a QB.

Presumably, if we trust Gettleman, we're going to be picking lower and lower as he adds more reliable talent to the roster, which means that every year we delay taking a QB, the price to move up will be more expensive. Look at how much the Bills will have paid to move up to #2 in your own example.

Now imagine how many more picks it would be if they didn't start with two 1st round picks (and they traded away their starting LT in the process as well). That's what we'd be looking at sometime in the near future if we need to move up for a QB. If you don't draft one this year, at least use the #2 pick to acquire the ammunition to trade up to draft one soon.

Any trade down that does not include a 2019 1st round pick is a huge mistake IMO.
There is no justification for taking Barkley  
.McL. : 4/14/2018 3:29 pm : link
He has way too many drive killing 0 or negative runs... And the stats from this thread only show negative runs, not 0 yard runs which are also considered drive killers.

And then there is positional value... I.E. RB has virtually no value. For any RB to be successful you have to have a decent line. Once you have a decent line, almost any RB will suffice.
This thread gives plenty of supporting evidence that RBs should not be valued.
LOL!  
mdthedream : 4/14/2018 3:35 pm : link
You could say that about Barry Sanders and Marshall Faulk. The kid is a stud and saying he shouldn't be taken in the top 4 is wrong. Now should the Giants take a QB yes if they can figure out who is going to be a stud. That is not as easy as is Barkley a stud.
RE: Imagine you're an nfl defensive coordinator,  
BladeCleaver : 4/14/2018 4:00 pm : link
In comment 13913992 Ira said:
Quote:
and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?


You forgot to mention Eli, Engram, Shepard and what should be an improved OLine.

And hopefully a coach who can make use of all the weapons.

People like to say that even though Barkley is the best player in the draft, by a large margin, that he is not worth the #2 pick. Personally, I think this QB class is overhyped and none are worth the #2 pick. So I say take the best player in the draft, even if you are over drafting him. He will not make it past the Browns #4.

Wait until Eli is ready to retire in 2 years and then draft your QB if Webb sucks. You will have a great team to plug a rookie QB into by then. Even if you have to overpay to draft him in 2020.
Inefficient Use of Draft Capital  
cwillm : 4/14/2018 5:18 pm : link
NYJ are a lock to select a QB at #3. If they don't believe a franchise QB is there for them at #2, then trade down. I don't see any justification for picking a non-QB at #2. That said, I'm hoping we take Darnold or Rosen at #2.
Take Barkley  
joeinpa : 4/14/2018 5:22 pm : link
And become immediately better, maybe even contend for the play offs.

Then the following year with your 39 year old quarterback, make another run.

That seems like more of a reach than does taking any of the top three quarterbacks does.
RE: LOL!  
.McL. : 4/14/2018 5:28 pm : link
In comment 13914135 mdthedream said:
Quote:
You could say that about Barry Sanders and Marshall Faulk. The kid is a stud and saying he shouldn't be taken in the top 4 is wrong. Now should the Giants take a QB yes if they can figure out who is going to be a stud. That is not as easy as is Barkley a stud.


Did you read the threads I linked. I say that there has been no RB in the past 25 years that provided enough value for the #2 pick
RE: RE: Imagine you're an nfl defensive coordinator,  
.McL. : 4/14/2018 5:31 pm : link
In comment 13914149 BladeCleaver said:
Quote:
In comment 13913992 Ira said:


Quote:


and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?



You forgot to mention Eli, Engram, Shepard and what should be an improved OLine.

And hopefully a coach who can make use of all the weapons.

People like to say that even though Barkley is the best player in the draft, by a large margin, that he is not worth the #2 pick. Personally, I think this QB class is overhyped and none are worth the #2 pick. So I say take the best player in the draft, even if you are over drafting him. He will not make it past the Browns #4.

Wait until Eli is ready to retire in 2 years and then draft your QB if Webb sucks. You will have a great team to plug a rookie QB into by then. Even if you have to overpay to draft him in 2020.


You forgot that the offensive line sucks, and there is no time for them to get open in the passing game, and no holes for your very expensive RB to work with...

Its hard to generate offense when you have multiple defensive guys in the backfield right at the snap, no matter how good your skill position players are.
RE: Inefficient Use of Draft Capital  
Mike in NY : 4/14/2018 5:42 pm : link
In comment 13914201 cwillm said:
Quote:
NYJ are a lock to select a QB at #3. If they don't believe a franchise QB is there for them at #2, then trade down. I don't see any justification for picking a non-QB at #2. That said, I'm hoping we take Darnold or Rosen at #2.


It takes two to tango. The draft is limited at the very top so if we are to trade down we would want to be in the range to still get from that level. What if nobody in that range is willing to trade up? Inefficient use of draft capital is trading down for the sake of trading down regardless of what talent you expect to be there at the later picks
Here you go..  
.McL. : 4/14/2018 5:54 pm : link
How much do skill players matter when the OL does this








RE: RE: RE: Imagine you're an nfl defensive coordinator,  
BladeCleaver : 4/14/2018 6:38 pm : link
In comment 13914218 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 13914149 BladeCleaver said:


Quote:


In comment 13913992 Ira said:


Quote:


and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?



You forgot to mention Eli, Engram, Shepard and what should be an improved OLine.

And hopefully a coach who can make use of all the weapons.

People like to say that even though Barkley is the best player in the draft, by a large margin, that he is not worth the #2 pick. Personally, I think this QB class is overhyped and none are worth the #2 pick. So I say take the best player in the draft, even if you are over drafting him. He will not make it past the Browns #4.

Wait until Eli is ready to retire in 2 years and then draft your QB if Webb sucks. You will have a great team to plug a rookie QB into by then. Even if you have to overpay to draft him in 2020.



You forgot that the offensive line sucks, and there is no time for them to get open in the passing game, and no holes for your very expensive RB to work with...

Its hard to generate offense when you have multiple defensive guys in the backfield right at the snap, no matter how good your skill position players are.


The Giants have addressed the OLine so far and I would fully expect their second pick to be the best OLineman available.

You also forget that we played with mainly scrub receivers for most of the year. Shepard was in and out of the lineup. Engram was the only threat to catch the ball.

That was a D Coordinator's wet dream. Of course most teams brought constant pressure.

Even a slight improvement in the OLine could be huge if you can threaten the whole field.

But, I guess it's better to concede the next 2 years and have a high priced rookie QB sit on the bench or play without a running game.

I guess it comes down to this: Would you rather draft a rookie QB with a great cast of skill players in 2 years and be in position to at the very least compete now? I bet even if Webb in a notch below one of the QBs this year he would still be better off with Barkley in the backfield then say Darnold would be with no running game.

I really believe that this team competes if they draft Barkley. I would be less concerned about the offense and more concerned about the defense if they choose Barkley. Actually, I am more concerned about the defense right now.

Browns have no QB for years. They have to draft one. Same with the Jest. Once again, everyone is sticking a fork in Eli's back. The front office still still could have cut ties in the off season with Eli and didn't. They recognize that they can still win with him. I so hope he goes out this year and proves all the people pushing him out the door wrong.
RE: RE: Inefficient Use of Draft Capital  
DonnieD89 : 4/14/2018 6:39 pm : link
In comment 13914227 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 13914201 cwillm said:


Quote:


NYJ are a lock to select a QB at #3. If they don't believe a franchise QB is there for them at #2, then trade down. I don't see any justification for picking a non-QB at #2. That said, I'm hoping we take Darnold or Rosen at #2.



It takes two to tango. The draft is limited at the very top so if we are to trade down we would want to be in the range to still get from that level. What if nobody in that range is willing to trade up? Inefficient use of draft capital is trading down for the sake of trading down regardless of what talent you expect to be there at the later picks


Bingo! It is illogical to trade down for the sake of trading down. Trading out just because of a position and you have that player significantly higher at that “lesser position” Doesn’t make any sense, particularly if the player is capable of completely changing an opposing teams game plan.
A running back that scares defenses ....  
short lease : 4/14/2018 7:26 pm : link
will open up the passing game but, let's see about the Giant's OL in 2018.
RE: Imagine you're an nfl defensive coordinator,  
FStubbs : 4/14/2018 8:31 pm : link
In comment 13913992 Ira said:
Quote:
and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?


I sleep soundly if Eli is retired and there is no viable replacement and the OL is still a mess.
Lost in this thread was a very salient point in the article.  
blueblood : 4/14/2018 10:03 pm : link
Quote:
Barkley is an immediate mismatch at the NFL level when motioned out and lined up against a linebacker in pass coverage.

The Giants will move away from 11 personnel (three wide receivers, one tight end, and one running back) and towards a 12 personnel-based offense in 2018 (with hints of 21 and 11 personnel) under new head coach Pat Shurmur. When Giants show 12 personnel, with Barkley, Odell Beckham Jr., Evan Engram, Brandon Marshall or Sterling Shepard, and an extra tight end (Rhett Ellison), it will make things very difficult on opposing defensive coordinators.

The Giants could then opt to run the football with seven blockers, fake the run (play action is a staple of new head coach Pat Shurmur's offense), or motion Barkley out to the slot and get him mismatched against a linebacker in coverage.


Eli is very good at play action. all the hand wringing about the OL is ignoring the fact that Gettleman has already stated that the OL is an issue. He has already signed two FA OL.. and will definitely draft one more and probably bring in a few UDFA as well. Shurmur was a huge part of the Vikings starting 4 new offensive lineman some of them at different positions last year.

The Giants would be able to run 12 personnel (very effectively ( 1 RB, 2WR, 2TE ).. especially with the threats of either Engram or Barkley both attacking LB's with their speed in the passing game...

They could start out in a 12 package but it could become an 11 with either Barkley or Engram being utilized as a WR..

They could run a 21 package with Ellison effectively being a FB.. something he did with the Vikings when they ran Adrian Peterson a lot..

Basically with Barkley you have a plaer who can run the ball.. but also be utilized as a weapon to attack LB's in the passing game.. the multiple different offensive packages could give DC's a fit.. and all of you skill position players would be fast.. the Giants would actually have speed that threatens a defense with OBJ, SQ and EE and to a somewhat lesser extent SS..

Barkley should legitimately be in the discusssion @ #2.. If you think of him as just a RB your doing yourself a disservice.. I like what Ourlad's said. He is a weapon.. You need to figure out how to utilize him to make the entire offense better..
If he's the best player, you take him - that's the justification  
Eric on Li : 4/14/2018 10:15 pm : link
if Todd Gurley was in this draft, would you pass on him and trade down just because he's a RB? Gettleman's job is to pick the best players (or find a great trade). If there's no great trade, and Barkley is the best player on their board, what would the justification be for taking a lesser player?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Imagine you're an nfl defensive coordinator,  
.McL. : 4/14/2018 10:25 pm : link
In comment 13914282 BladeCleaver said:
Quote:
In comment 13914218 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 13914149 BladeCleaver said:


Quote:


In comment 13913992 Ira said:


Quote:


and the next team you're playing has both Odell Beckham Jr and Saquon Barkley in the lineup. Do you think you're going to get any sleep that week?



You forgot to mention Eli, Engram, Shepard and what should be an improved OLine.

And hopefully a coach who can make use of all the weapons.

People like to say that even though Barkley is the best player in the draft, by a large margin, that he is not worth the #2 pick. Personally, I think this QB class is overhyped and none are worth the #2 pick. So I say take the best player in the draft, even if you are over drafting him. He will not make it past the Browns #4.

Wait until Eli is ready to retire in 2 years and then draft your QB if Webb sucks. You will have a great team to plug a rookie QB into by then. Even if you have to overpay to draft him in 2020.



You forgot that the offensive line sucks, and there is no time for them to get open in the passing game, and no holes for your very expensive RB to work with...

Its hard to generate offense when you have multiple defensive guys in the backfield right at the snap, no matter how good your skill position players are.



The Giants have addressed the OLine so far and I would fully expect their second pick to be the best OLineman available.

You also forget that we played with mainly scrub receivers for most of the year. Shepard was in and out of the lineup. Engram was the only threat to catch the ball.

That was a D Coordinator's wet dream. Of course most teams brought constant pressure.

Even a slight improvement in the OLine could be huge if you can threaten the whole field.

But, I guess it's better to concede the next 2 years and have a high priced rookie QB sit on the bench or play without a running game.

I guess it comes down to this: Would you rather draft a rookie QB with a great cast of skill players in 2 years and be in position to at the very least compete now? I bet even if Webb in a notch below one of the QBs this year he would still be better off with Barkley in the backfield then say Darnold would be with no running game.

I really believe that this team competes if they draft Barkley. I would be less concerned about the offense and more concerned about the defense if they choose Barkley. Actually, I am more concerned about the defense right now.

Browns have no QB for years. They have to draft one. Same with the Jest. Once again, everyone is sticking a fork in Eli's back. The front office still still could have cut ties in the off season with Eli and didn't. They recognize that they can still win with him. I so hope he goes out this year and proves all the people pushing him out the door wrong.


The Giants have not addressed the OLine yet...
Don't get me wrong, getting Solder and Omameh were good moves.

But its a work in progress. They addressed 1 position with a decent player, but he is in the middle when it comes to starting LT. He is not a top 10 LT, but he is decent.

Assuming Flowers bothers to return, 60% of the OL are the same failures from last year. Granted, Pugh can not stay healthy, but when he was, he was a significantly better LG than Omameh.

So we got much better at LT, worse than a healthy Pugh at LG, and the rest are holdovers. Expecting some sort of magical improvement in the overall play of the line is delusional. Maybe incrementally better... But another off season and it has a chance to be much better in 2019. It just simply isn't there yet.

RE: If he's the best player, you take him - that's the justification  
the mike : 4/14/2018 10:27 pm : link
In comment 13914445 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
if Todd Gurley was in this draft, would you pass on him and trade down just because he's a RB? Gettleman's job is to pick the best players (or find a great trade). If there's no great trade, and Barkley is the best player on their board, what would the justification be for taking a lesser player?


This is really the main point - had we just taken Todd Gurley instead of Ereck Flowers three years ago we would not be having this debate today... it doesn't matter that offensive linemen offer more value in the general sense. It only matters that Gurley was the Best Player Available and we were instead focused on filling a need on the line. When Scherff was taken by the Redskins unexpectedly with the fifth pick, we simply had to shift gears and take Gurley there...
If we had taken Gurley  
.McL. : 4/14/2018 11:29 pm : link
our OL would still be awful... Look what happened to Gurley in 2016 with a Bad Rams OL. It wasn't pretty.

Suddenly the Rams have a good OL, and the statistic quoted yards before a defensive player was withing 1 yard of the RB is not helped by the RB. Its pure a measure of the OL.

Gurley would look like a bust running behind the Giants OL the past 2 years (much like he did behind a poor Rams line in 2016, which was still significantly better the Giants). We would be soon looking at his second contract, and the cap dollars will go up... My bet is 4 years running behind the Giants OL, people would be saying that Gurley was a wasted pick and he is not worth bringing back and paying top dollar. Let him get it somewhere else. And we would not have made any progress towards a championship.
Here is what was being written about Gurley  
.McL. : 4/14/2018 11:36 pm : link
Before the OL suddenly became elite

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum

If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?

And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!
RE: Here is what was being written about Gurley  
the mike : 4/14/2018 11:55 pm : link
In comment 13914509 .McL. said:
Quote:
Before the OL suddenly became elite

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum

If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?

And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!


We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Todd Gurley is head and shoulders more valuable to the Rams offense than Ajayi is to the Eagles. Absolutely no comparison...

Gurley and the elite running backs who are also elite in the passing game like Gurley, Bell and Elliott not only balance the overall offense, but offer great relative value compared to costlier wide receivers like Brown, Jones and Beckham.

You will never convince me that Gurley wasn't the right pick in 2015 anymore than you will convince me that Tunsil wasn't the right pick in 2016... it is about the players available in comparison, not the overall rule.
Bottom line there is a new Sheriff in town  
TMS : 4/14/2018 11:57 pm : link
deciding who we draft/ acquire. Like what I see so far Think DG and Abrams are up there with anybody in the league. Our Coaching staff impresses me as well. Give them a chance to do their jobs . Great action though I must admit.
RE: RE: Here is what was being written about Gurley  
.McL. : 4/15/2018 1:40 am : link
In comment 13914514 the mike said:
Quote:
In comment 13914509 .McL. said:


Quote:


Before the OL suddenly became elite

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum

If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?

And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!



We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Todd Gurley is head and shoulders more valuable to the Rams offense than Ajayi is to the Eagles. Absolutely no comparison...

Gurley and the elite running backs who are also elite in the passing game like Gurley, Bell and Elliott not only balance the overall offense, but offer great relative value compared to costlier wide receivers like Brown, Jones and Beckham.

You will never convince me that Gurley wasn't the right pick in 2015 anymore than you will convince me that Tunsil wasn't the right pick in 2016... it is about the players available in comparison, not the overall rule.


I am not arguing Flowers over Gurley... Clearly Flowers was a mistake... But how about Marcus Peters instead of Flowers... If you are going to give me the option of redoing that pick, I would MUCH rather have Peters than Gurley.
RE: RE: Here is what was being written about Gurley  
.McL. : 4/15/2018 3:27 am : link
In comment 13914514 the mike said:
Quote:
In comment 13914509 .McL. said:


Quote:


Before the OL suddenly became elite

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum

If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?

And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!



We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Todd Gurley is head and shoulders more valuable to the Rams offense than Ajayi is to the Eagles. Absolutely no comparison...

Gurley and the elite running backs who are also elite in the passing game like Gurley, Bell and Elliott not only balance the overall offense, but offer great relative value compared to costlier wide receivers like Brown, Jones and Beckham.

You will never convince me that Gurley wasn't the right pick in 2015 anymore than you will convince me that Tunsil wasn't the right pick in 2016... it is about the players available in comparison, not the overall rule.


With regards to Gurley vs Ajayi... You are missing the point. Ajayi cost next to nothing... He was a 5th rounder to Miami and the Eagles gave up a 4th rounder... A FOURTH ROUNDER FOR A PRO BOWL RB!!!! Let that sink in.

The point is that the extra production you get from Gurley is not worth the cost. The draft pick and cap dollars can be better spent elsewhere to improve the team, while you can get a guy who is plenty good enough at RB for next to nothing.

And in Gurley's case, he was running behind one of the top 3 OLines... How much of his production is really due to the OL vs Ajayi and his OL (both of them). Granted Philly's OL is decent but nearly as good as the Rams.
RE: RE: RE: Here is what was being written about Gurley  
the mike : 4/15/2018 7:51 am : link
In comment 13914546 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 13914514 the mike said:


Quote:


In comment 13914509 .McL. said:


Quote:


Before the OL suddenly became elite

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum

If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?

And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!



We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Todd Gurley is head and shoulders more valuable to the Rams offense than Ajayi is to the Eagles. Absolutely no comparison...

Gurley and the elite running backs who are also elite in the passing game like Gurley, Bell and Elliott not only balance the overall offense, but offer great relative value compared to costlier wide receivers like Brown, Jones and Beckham.

You will never convince me that Gurley wasn't the right pick in 2015 anymore than you will convince me that Tunsil wasn't the right pick in 2016... it is about the players available in comparison, not the overall rule.



With regards to Gurley vs Ajayi... You are missing the point. Ajayi cost next to nothing... He was a 5th rounder to Miami and the Eagles gave up a 4th rounder... A FOURTH ROUNDER FOR A PRO BOWL RB!!!! Let that sink in.

The point is that the extra production you get from Gurley is not worth the cost. The draft pick and cap dollars can be better spent elsewhere to improve the team, while you can get a guy who is plenty good enough at RB for next to nothing.

And in Gurley's case, he was running behind one of the top 3 OLines... How much of his production is really due to the OL vs Ajayi and his OL (both of them). Granted Philly's OL is decent but nearly as good as the Rams.


We would likely not be having this discussion had we selected Ajayi - but we selected Mykkele Thompson to improve our "pass defense efficiency"... How did that work out? And then in 2016, instead of selecting Jordan Howard, we selected Paul Perkins - which I contend was just about as poor a draft selection as Reese ever made despite the fact it occurred in the fifth round. And then last year, we were jumped by Kansas City for Karim Hunt... hindsight tells us now that we should have taken either Kamara or Hunt in the second round...

So if you are going to wait until later rounds to get a running back, you had better be successful in the later rounds which unfortunately has not been the case around here over the past decade. The only chance we have to contend in 2018 is to support Eli with a balanced offensive attack. Simply improving the offensive line with our current roster of running backs as you suggest will not give us that balance right now when we have a super bowl winning quarterback still in his prime at the helm for the next several years.

Given the terrible choices made in the past, Gettleman simply has no choice now but to find that balance by selecting Barkley or trading for a more valuable haul of pics if he is presented with that option...

RE: RE: RE: Here is what was being written about Gurley  
the mike : 4/15/2018 7:58 am : link
In comment 13914535 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 13914514 the mike said:


Quote:


In comment 13914509 .McL. said:


Quote:


Before the OL suddenly became elite

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000806514/article/reranking-the-2015-rb-class-the-todd-gurley-conundrum

If you can get guys like Jay Ajayi in the 5th round... Why spend the #10 pick in round 1 on Gurley?

And its not like guys like getting decent RBs in later rounds is rare. It happens often. Why does it happen often? Because its the OL that makes the RB, its not the RB that makes the OL!



We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Todd Gurley is head and shoulders more valuable to the Rams offense than Ajayi is to the Eagles. Absolutely no comparison...

Gurley and the elite running backs who are also elite in the passing game like Gurley, Bell and Elliott not only balance the overall offense, but offer great relative value compared to costlier wide receivers like Brown, Jones and Beckham.

You will never convince me that Gurley wasn't the right pick in 2015 anymore than you will convince me that Tunsil wasn't the right pick in 2016... it is about the players available in comparison, not the overall rule.



I am not arguing Flowers over Gurley... Clearly Flowers was a mistake... But how about Marcus Peters instead of Flowers... If you are going to give me the option of redoing that pick, I would MUCH rather have Peters than Gurley.


Ironically they are now both on the same team - lets see who the Rams end up valuing more in the coming years... Peters is another selfish "Josh Norman" type talent who you and the Rams can keep... Gurley will be a HOFer...
Barkley will be like Faulk was...  
Torrag : 4/15/2018 9:24 am : link
...he won't take the tarditional punishment most 'bellcow' backs endure because he'll be catching almost as many balls as he is getting handed. In space he'll use his superior agility to minimize the impact of those hits.
RE: Barkley will be like Faulk was...  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/15/2018 10:49 am : link
In comment 13914637 Torrag said:
Quote:
...he won't take the tarditional punishment most 'bellcow' backs endure because he'll be catching almost as many balls as he is getting handed. In space he'll use his superior agility to minimize the impact of those hits.

Marshall Faulk had over 2800 carries in his career, and under 800 receptions. I wouldn't say he was ever "catching almost as many balls as he [was] getting handed."
So this is the Giants fans thinking?  
NYSports1 : 4/15/2018 12:49 pm : link
Let's take a running back at 2 where there is like 10 backs who can produce on any team. Getting 5 yards on a carry between the tackles or via leaping like barkely would is still 5 yards. You want it to be pretty?

Then they claim when we need a qb in 2 years we can trade up even if it cost us a fortune to get the qb.

HAHAHAHA...So trade a ransom in a few years for a qb when we are in position to take one now. And nobody can say for sure that the Giants have the 4qbs as out of the top 5. That is dumb if they do when people are throwing themselves all over to draft up.

Or are we to believe all teams are retarded and only DG is smart when it comes to acquring a qb?
So taking the consensus best player in the draft is a mistake ?  
TMS : 4/16/2018 12:27 pm : link
Interesting thought process. We took LT, the Bills took OJ etc.( at #2) were they mistakes too ? We do not have to justify anything because some fans are obsessed with some mediocre QBs and think our QB is done before his time.
RE: So taking the consensus best player in the draft is a mistake ?  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/16/2018 9:47 pm : link
In comment 13915940 TMS said:
Quote:
Interesting thought process. We took LT, the Bills took OJ etc.( at #2) were they mistakes too ? We do not have to justify anything because some fans are obsessed with some mediocre QBs and think our QB is done before his time.

It might be mute.

Or is it moot, like intelligent people spell it?
I don’t really get the Jordan Howard  
Strahan91 : 4/16/2018 10:02 pm : link
Or Ajayi argument. Demarcus Lawrence, Everson Griffin and Yannick Ngakoue and Calias Campbell are some of the best pass rushers in the NFL and none of them were first round picks. I can’t imagine the Giants pass up a qb unless they don’t think any of the remaining 3 can be franchise guys. If that’s the case (and nobody knows if it is) then you take the best player available who is most likely to be a great player which is Barkley or Chubb. You can get great players at either position out of the first two but you have to be both lucky and great at talent evaluation. The Giants have struck out in rounds 3-7 year after year so why wouldn’t a fan want the closest to a sure thing at 2?
Barkley maybe special like OJ or Falk  
TMS : 4/18/2018 4:15 pm : link
get them the ball with space to move and run, it is race to the end zone from any place on the field any time . The pressure that puts on defenses is huge . Just like having a great QB with an OL and receivers. Give Eli that weapon and see what happens.
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