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| When NFL teams have scouted Allen, they’ve noticed how Allen seemed to be under pressure far more than any of the other five first-round candidates. And they’ve noticed how poorly he responded to that pressure. It’s not just the 56.3 career completion percentage that bothers teams; it’s how he has responded to pressure. And, as one official from a quarterback-needy team told me, how difficult it was to scout him because he had so many free rushers coming at him consistently. |
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| Allen under pressure: Of the 47 draft-eligible quarterbacks with 175 or more dropbacks in 2017, PFF found that Allen was the fifth-most-pressured quarterback, at 41 percent of his pass drops. Of the other top prospects, Lamar Jackson was pressured 36 percent of the time, Sam Darnold 31 percent, Josh Rosen 29 percent, Baker Mayfield 28 percent and Rudolph 23 percent. Clearly, Allen’s performance should have been affected by pressure more than the other quarterbacks. |
I'm not saying anything one way or the other about Allen as a prospect, I'd be happy if the Giants decided he was their guy. I also like Darnold but I think I'd like to see us get Rosen most of all.
We are going to need a QB to likely start playing games at some point this next season...
I m for finding a quarterback, but it s obvious Eli s the guy for this season.
But to be fair, all these QB's need to have development.
We are going to need a QB to likely start playing games at some point this next season...
And I am not talking about Elu likely getting hurt in 2018 as to why we will likely need a QB sooner vs later...
And I am not talking about Elu likely getting hurt in 2018 as to why we will likely need a QB sooner vs later...
Just because the QBs behind Manning didn't show much on the field doesn't mean they didn't learn anything or benefit greatly from Manning. Maybe they just weren't very good.
And I am not talking about Elu likely getting hurt in 2018 as to why we will likely need a QB sooner vs later...
Well none of them ever stood a real chance at replacing him. Drafting a QB at 2 changes that, especially one with more talent than has ever been behind Manning
I'm intrigued by Allen to watch from afar to see how he develops. I don't want the Giants to be that team. My fear is that NFL coaches love potential and stroke their own ego in thinking they can mold a player into what they want. Allen is Kyle Boller 2.0
Coaching Is key, I have confidence in Shula and Shurmur.
This "never had a QB coach" thing is not accurate. Wyoming's OC is also the QB coach, which is exactly the same setup he'd have with the Giants.
We are going to need a QB to likely start playing games at some point this next season...
Seriously? Then Webb is the guy. The Giants have put their eggs in the Eli basket and they know it. Some people here need to realize that the moves we have made clearly indicate try and win now. Gettleman is like Eli in some ways. He is way on the back nine of his career and this is his win now opportunity too.
So what QB's have we tried to seriously develop? 4th Rd pick Nassib? Webb the jury is still out? The other backups were all guys there to just BACKUP Eli. Nobody was there to be developed as a possible starter outside of maybe Nassib, who was a poor choice..
But please, continue with your nonsense.
I'm not "intrigued" by Allen at all. IMo he is a bad pick for number 2.
Mike Leach put it best:
“Then they say ‘Well all he has to do is work on his accuracy. Well ok. He won’t be accurate in high school. Then some college will take him, and then he won’t be accurate there, and then the NFL says ‘all he has to do is work on his accuracy,’ and they’ll take him there, and he won’t be accurate there and then he’ll be out of the league.”
“The thing that’s amazing to me, is that after all of high school he’s not accurate, and now all of a sudden you’re special and you’re going to make him accurate? And then after college he’s not accurate, and you’re special and you’re going to make him accurate? I just haven’t seen that happen. I’ve seen guys improve, but they don’t all of a sudden become accurate.”
Mike Leach on QBs - ( New Window )
People argue that if Allen only had 8 more completions, he'd be considered accurate, or if he had better WR's or a better OL.
The point remains that no QB drafted in the past 15 years with his level of accuracy has been successful.
The best example is David Garrard and he had a season in college above 60% and was at 57% - which is still higher than Allen's.
Accuracy is one of the best indicators of failure (not necessary success), yet it routinely gets ignored because people fall in love with the arm.
Mike Leach put it best:
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“People make this mistake all over the country, and everybody can think of one, but there will be a guy who is big, strong and athletic, and everyone gets tempted by speed and if someone has a super strong arm.”
“Then they say ‘Well all he has to do is work on his accuracy. Well ok. He won’t be accurate in high school. Then some college will take him, and then he won’t be accurate there, and then the NFL says ‘all he has to do is work on his accuracy,’ and they’ll take him there, and he won’t be accurate there and then he’ll be out of the league.”
“The thing that’s amazing to me, is that after all of high school he’s not accurate, and now all of a sudden you’re special and you’re going to make him accurate? And then after college he’s not accurate, and you’re special and you’re going to make him accurate? I just haven’t seen that happen. I’ve seen guys improve, but they don’t all of a sudden become accurate.”
Mike Leach on QBs - ( New Window )
Agreed. Every year teams fall in love with "measurables," to the point where they overdraft a player. That is especially true with QBs. It's almost invariable a disaster. Allen's accuracy issues are not likely to improve in the NFL, where the throwing windows will be even smaller.
People argue that if Allen only had 8 more completions, he'd be considered accurate, or if he had better WR's or a better OL.
The point remains that no QB drafted in the past 15 years with his level of accuracy has been successful.
The best example is David Garrard and he had a season in college above 60% and was at 57% - which is still higher than Allen's.
Accuracy is one of the best indicators of failure (not necessary success), yet it routinely gets ignored because people fall in love with the arm.
Russell Wilson is an interesting case. Now I am NOT comparing those 2 at all. But...
Wilsons first 3 years he was under 60% at NC STATE every year. Goes to Wisconsin and BLOWS it out of the water with over 70%. Now I am not saying Allen will do that, but Wilson flipped it late in his career and Allen is younger than Wilson was at the time they entered the draft.
Just some food for thought.
And you are 0.00%.
I just want to ask you an honest question. Do you enjoy posting the same stuff over and over again? You come in and talk about "Eli's cult" but we are talking about Josh Allen here. And you come in out of the blue with something that is just out of place.
Maybe its time to think of something else? I mean I know I am bad when defending Eli - but you take it to a whole new level to take shots at him.
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Not at all. He never had a qb coach his entire career. Fought for his job year in and year out. Made great strides with Palmer as his qb coach in just a few months. The inaccuracy issues are way overblown. He did very well at hisnpro day and the combine with accuracy. His offense at Wyoming was a stretch the field offense. Very few screens very few gimme throws. He’s going to be a good one. He does need time in an nfl offense and to sit behind a vet qb for at least a season. Giants are the perfect fit. I would run up there in 2 seconds and grab him after the browns take darnold
This "never had a QB coach" thing is not accurate. Wyoming's OC is also the QB coach, which is exactly the same setup he'd have with the Giants.
I get what your saying, but if he comes here, he will be working with 2 known QB gurus in Shula and Shurmur. Both have developed fantastic QBs and have even upped the level of play of some average ones.
If they choice Allen, then you have to believe they feel they can develop him and trust in them.
Also, people tend to forget that both Shurmur AND Shula have had QBs with mobility. Allen has the most mobility out of the top 4 QBs. We don't know if that is a preference, but its something to think about.
His offensive coordinator at Wyoming is the same offensive coordinator who coached Carson Wentz for three years at NDSU.
59.8% would be a massive improvement for Allen. He is terrible.
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Is doing so for what he can be, not what he is. They are taking a chance on potential and I'm sure will have a development plan for him. Clearly he is a guy who has not had the benefit for the degree of coaching the others have
His offensive coordinator at Wyoming is the same offensive coordinator who coached Carson Wentz for three years at NDSU.
Some would argue that he may have had better coaching than anyone who played for UCLA given Mora Jr's track record of failure.
He had the same guy who coached Carson Wentz.
Made great strides under Palmer? For what his Pro Day? So did Tim Tebow.
He could eventually reach his 'potential.' He seems like a great kid and you have to give him serious credit for hanging in there and believing in himself when D1 football programs did not.
He seems to have a lot to unlearn and he has to do much of it under fire.
I hope the Giants wouldn't consider him anywhere in the first two rounds. He has a long way to go and the odds against him are long.
He could eventually reach his 'potential.' He seems like a great kid and you have to give him serious credit for hanging in there and believing in himself when D1 football programs did not.
He seems to have a lot to unlearn and he has to do much of it under fire.
I hope the Giants wouldn't consider him anywhere in the first two rounds. He has a long way to go and the odds against him are long.
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just sayin. must be rueben randles fault.
And you are 0.00%.
I just want to ask you an honest question. Do you enjoy posting the same stuff over and over again? You come in and talk about "Eli's cult" but we are talking about Josh Allen here. And you come in out of the blue with something that is just out of place.
Maybe its time to think of something else? I mean I know I am bad when defending Eli - but you take it to a whole new level to take shots at him.
yes i take shots cause he has not been good for some time now and always gets a pass.i believe strongly it is time to start a new era of giant football.its just sports.when he benched himself last season the reaction was so out of control it felt like a cult,like when paterno was fired.
Darnold might be worth #2, might not.
The rest surely don’t.
Barkley or Chubb...
And I am not talking about Elu likely getting hurt in 2018 as to why we will likely need a QB sooner vs later...
Try and think this through. Take your time. If the giants draft a highly touted qb at 2 it’s going to be a much different situation than when they drafted Rhett friggin bomar at 135 or Ryan nassib and letting them sit behind Eli. Don’t you think?
Darnold might be worth #2, might not.
The rest surely don’t.
Barkley or Chubb...
Yeah you’re not speculating at all. Speculating on a bunch of rumors and gossip no less.
Get that everyone? Rosen is going to just collect his money and retire early.
I wonder why so many people love accusing josh rosen of being greedy and selfishly obsessed with money while lacking any true desire to dominate his sport. I wonder why.....
I don’t have to actually say the words. We all know what’s really going on here with the wide spread perception of josh Rosen. Right? Tell me I’m nuts. Please.
This board has a lot of Rosen’s family members on it.
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In comment 13918499 sundayatone said:
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just sayin. must be rueben randles fault.
And you are 0.00%.
I just want to ask you an honest question. Do you enjoy posting the same stuff over and over again? You come in and talk about "Eli's cult" but we are talking about Josh Allen here. And you come in out of the blue with something that is just out of place.
Maybe its time to think of something else? I mean I know I am bad when defending Eli - but you take it to a whole new level to take shots at him.
yes i take shots cause he has not been good for some time now and always gets a pass.i believe strongly it is time to start a new era of giant football.its just sports.when he benched himself last season the reaction was so out of control it felt like a cult,like when paterno was fired.
There is absolutely nothing factual about this and the fact you need to start this in a Josh Allen of all threads shows you are here for one reason and one reason only. Just sad.
You do bring up a good point that he hasn't had a real QB coach, but to call his inaccuracy overblown could not be more wrong. It is not that he was missing guys, it was how he was missing them, and often how badly. His footwork is terrible, his pocket presence is poor, he has a tendency to lock onto receivers, and he forces throws into coverage.
I get that he didn't have a lot of talent around him, but he struggled against poor teams as well. I also can see that the offense he played in was better suited to a HS team, but he has fundamental issues that need to be dealt with. I'm sure it can be done, but he has a lot of bad habits to overcome, and has to do it at a level where the speed is so much greater than what he is used to. I wouldn't take the chance if I were GM, at least not with a top 10 pick.
nothing against mayfield, i think he will be good too.
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they were trainwrecks in the NFL and never developed at all...
So what QB's have we tried to seriously develop? 4th Rd pick Nassib? Webb the jury is still out? The other backups were all guys there to just BACKUP Eli. Nobody was there to be developed as a possible starter outside of maybe Nassib, who was a poor choice..
But please, continue with your nonsense.
Debate it fine, but stop with rude comments just cause you disagree.
I can't help that Eli and the coaches did not try (or succeed) in developing backup QBs to be good or even serviceable. My comment was simply around the idea that they were trainwrecks whenever they got live snaps. And that anybody looking for Eli to develop our next guy is really just hoping because there is simply no track record there...at all.
And every negative he's had (with historical examples to support it being a true weakness) tends to get downplayed. We've had posts breaking down that his accuracy is only a difference of 8 completions. We've had posts talking about his WR's having the most ops (which was false). We have had posts about his OL being terrible (even though two of them were All-Conference selections).
I think the kicker was a thread that discussed how the inclement weather in Wyoming and his conference was driving the poor accuracy. When so many excuses have to be created to talk yourself into the pick - don't make the pick.
I don't disagree there is a chance. We can debate how long this is going to last though...
And I am not talking about Elu likely getting hurt in 2018 as to why we will likely need a QB sooner vs later...
I don't know where to start with this. First of all, the Giants have never needed to evaluate a 2nd QB until now, as Eli gets older. Secondly, they have never taken a QB higher than the 3rd round since Eli was drafted. I think you will admit that picking a QB 2nd overall is different than taking one at the end of the 3rd round? Lastly, a new admin, with a HC with a reputation for developing QB's.
If they draft a QB at 2, I don't think it's fait accompli that Eli will play the entire season. A lot depends on who they draft, and how the season plays out. I could see a more NFL-ready QB like Rosen playing if the Giants are out of the playoff picture.
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Rosen won’t care to get a 2nd contract as he will take his $$ and his weak shoulder and concussion prone head and go back to the beach.
Darnold might be worth #2, might not.
The rest surely don’t.
Barkley or Chubb...
Yeah you’re not speculating at all. Speculating on a bunch of rumors and gossip no less.
Get that everyone? Rosen is going to just collect his money and retire early.
I wonder why so many people love accusing josh rosen of being greedy and selfishly obsessed with money while lacking any true desire to dominate his sport. I wonder why.....
I don’t have to actually say the words. We all know what’s really going on here with the wide spread perception of josh Rosen. Right? Tell me I’m nuts. Please.
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for every QB that has been on the roster since 2004 Not blaming Eli but that is just the facts. Not sure I buy the rhetoric from the beats writing stories on the backups and how great for them to learn from Eli as it certainly hasn't showed.
And I am not talking about Elu likely getting hurt in 2018 as to why we will likely need a QB sooner vs later...
Try and think this through. Take your time. If the giants draft a highly touted qb at 2 it’s going to be a much different situation than when they drafted Rhett friggin bomar at 135 or Ryan nassib and letting them sit behind Eli. Don’t you think?
Ok, let me think... Ok, I am good now.
I didn't say Eli's former backups were the next coming of Joe Namath. I said they were complete trainwrecks. Never developed at all into even a quality backup. And the assertion made was that benefited greatly being behind Eli...i don't see it.
I still think some older execs are trying to find the next John Elway.
It seems like the opposite argument has been made more often - Because Rosen comes from a well off family that he doesn't have the desire to play and money doesn't drive him.
Basically, he's being called aloof and that at anytime he'll just walk off the field and call it quits because his dad is a neurosurgeon.
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In comment 13918513 dep026 said:
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In comment 13918499 sundayatone said:
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just sayin. must be rueben randles fault.
And you are 0.00%.
I just want to ask you an honest question. Do you enjoy posting the same stuff over and over again? You come in and talk about "Eli's cult" but we are talking about Josh Allen here. And you come in out of the blue with something that is just out of place.
Maybe its time to think of something else? I mean I know I am bad when defending Eli - but you take it to a whole new level to take shots at him.
yes i take shots cause he has not been good for some time now and always gets a pass.i believe strongly it is time to start a new era of giant football.its just sports.when he benched himself last season the reaction was so out of control it felt like a cult,like when paterno was fired.
There is absolutely nothing factual about this and the fact you need to start this in a Josh Allen of all threads shows you are here for one reason and one reason only. Just sad.
really,like what?
seems to me all the positives are that he's big, athletic, and can throw it really far but may not know where the ball will end up
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“I saw Allen live this year at Iowa and he looks pretty. If you want a guy on the sidelines warming up, he looks pretty good. At the Senior Bowl, he did not have a good week in practice. He hit a few routes, but there’s nobody really covering. I think Josh Allen is like driving a covered wagon on the Autobahn. When he gets out there with all that speed and all the changing defenses, he can’t see it. He can’t process things fast enough. It doesn’t ever slow down for him. Everything’s so fast. He’s never thrown for a high percentage. If I hear one more time about Josh Allen’s strong arm — he can’t read defenses or make plays.”
Dan Shonka Shonka has been at this for a long while, as a former college head coach, scout for National Football Scouting, the Eagles, Redskins and Chiefs and currently as Ourlads’ Scouting Services general manager and national scout. He likes Mayfield best of all the quarterback prospects, followed by Rosen, Darnold, Mason Rudolph, Allen and Lamar Jackson, assigning first-round grades to all of them. It is not as if Shonka believes all these players will be busts, but, other than Mayfield and possibly Rosen, he does not see what all the fuss is about and certainly does not salivate over this class.
Lot of reputable NFL guys beating the Mayfield drum...
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In comment 13918584 YorkAveGiant said:
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Rosen won’t care to get a 2nd contract as he will take his $$ and his weak shoulder and concussion prone head and go back to the beach.
Darnold might be worth #2, might not.
The rest surely don’t.
Barkley or Chubb...
Yeah you’re not speculating at all. Speculating on a bunch of rumors and gossip no less.
Get that everyone? Rosen is going to just collect his money and retire early.
I wonder why so many people love accusing josh rosen of being greedy and selfishly obsessed with money while lacking any true desire to dominate his sport. I wonder why.....
I don’t have to actually say the words. We all know what’s really going on here with the wide spread perception of josh Rosen. Right? Tell me I’m nuts. Please.
You've framed other people's opinions to get your desired outcome; you might as well come out and say it. People don't need to be bashful here, do they?
In all my years of following the nfl draft I don’t recall a player enduring this weird scrutiny about being money hungry before he’s even played a single game. Veteran free agents looking to get rich and lazy is one thing but a collegiate qb? Never. It’s weird.
It seems like the opposite argument has been made more often - Because Rosen comes from a well off family that he doesn't have the desire to play and money doesn't drive him.
Basically, he's being called aloof and that at anytime he'll just walk off the field and call it quits because his dad is a neurosurgeon.
Ok I guess I’ll give you that. But I’ve read right here on BBI that Rosen is looking for the money and doesn’t care about football.