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Quick article on Saquon as a modern back

Oscar : 4/18/2018 12:35 pm
I have been pretty set against taking Barkley with #2 overall, I hate the idea of using such a valuable pick on a running back. But this article makes the point that you need to look at him differently, hes really just an offensive weapon rather than a bell cow back who blasts away at the defense.

Now part of me worries this is Reggie Bush redux, but who knows. I guess if they are not convinced by a QB and feel Saquon is just a stud prospect and a weapon who will open up the passing game as well as contributing in the run game I am on board.


Saquon Barkley Value - ( New Window )
I have been critical of Barkley  
George from PA : 4/18/2018 12:47 pm : link
as I well aware of his short coming, but I am intrigued by having him on the field with OBJ and our other weapons....as he will dictate and cause high mismatches.

also help Eli immensely.

Bush is not a fair comparison.

he is more like Barry Sander.
I'm more interested in getting a modern  
Toastt34 : 4/18/2018 12:54 pm : link
QB.
going to say it again  
blueblood : 4/18/2018 12:54 pm : link
people are not really acknowledging is how Barkley having the ability to be a three down back affects the Giants personnel package options and the ability to be multiple on offense.

The Giants potentially can run

11 Personnel
12 Personnel
20 Personnel
21 Personnel
22 Personnel

Also they can be multiple.. they could show 11 Personnel with Barkley @ RB but then move him into the slot and now its a 01 Personnel.. Or vice versa..

They could start out in a 12 Personnel and then split Engram out wide and now its an 11 Personnel..

Now Im not saying that HAVE to get Barkley.. what I am saying is that its not something I see talked about..

My gut says the Giants are going to go with Chubb. Gettleman has drafted DL early.. He has said he believes defense wins championships.. He believes in building the trenches.. pressuring the QB..

I think the mantra about RB's is changing, like all mantra's do as  
PatersonPlank : 4/18/2018 12:55 pm : link
times change. Now we have Gurley, Zeke, Fournette, Kamara (lower pick I know), and even Dalvin Cook (who was doing very well). Throw in Bell as a 2nd. RB's can now have a very positive impact on a team, I don't believe a top RB is a "commodity" any more. In fact I would argue that in todays spread offenses WR's are more of a commodity than a top back.
People forget that both Cook and Kamara  
blueblood : 4/18/2018 1:00 pm : link
had off the field issues that caused them to drop. Kamara was considered at least a 2nd round talent and a few people said first round talent) .. and Cook was considered a first..

Think Marshall Faulk  
Tim in VA : 4/18/2018 1:02 pm : link
That's your best comparison. Barry was awesome but you didn't see him running downfield as a receiver. Also blitz pickups.
faulk is def the best comparison  
GiantsFan84 : 4/18/2018 1:17 pm : link
he is NOT barry sanders lol
Personnel packages don't change  
giants#1 : 4/18/2018 1:18 pm : link
based on where players line up and that is one of the reasons why a player like Barkley or even Engram is potentially such a big mismatch. With Barkley in the fold, the Giants can go:

- 12 personnel (Barkley, Engram, Ellison, Bechkam, Shepard) resulting in the D likely countering with their base D (43 or 34). The Giants can then line up in an empty backfield with a LB responsible for Barkley and/or Engram. Advantage: Giants
- 22 or 13 personnel with a FB or TE replacing SS. Once again, the D would counter with a base D or even subbing a DB for an extra LB/DL and the Giants can again create mismatches for Engram and/or Barkley.

If D's start countering by playing more nickel against the above personnel groupings, the Giants then need to take advantage on the ground (hopefully the OL is improved enough to do so). And if it's a "big nickel" (safety as 5th DB instead of a CB), then Barkley and/or Engram would still have a potential mismatch.
his running style is Sanders-esque  
giants#1 : 4/18/2018 1:19 pm : link
as he'll lose yards going for the HR, but his versatility in the passing game is much more like Faulk.
Bush is a crap comparison  
UConn4523 : 4/18/2018 1:21 pm : link
almost as bad as the Manziel/Mayfield comparisons.

You absolutely have to think Barkley is more than just a typical RB to take him at 2, and I think he is. Even more intriguing is putting him in a Shurmur offense.
Bakley had..........  
Koffman : 4/18/2018 1:31 pm : link
54 Recs for 632 Yds last year at PSU. In comparsion last year for the Giants Evan Engram had 64 for 722 and Shepard had 59 for 731. Add to the fact Barkley also had 1271 Yds rushing and 18 TD's it gives you a sense of how much he can contribute to this team. He will be the teams leading rusher, and quite possibly the 2nd or 3rd leading receiver for the team.
imagine if Eli could throw a screen pass  
gtt350 : 4/18/2018 1:33 pm : link
.
his running style is very much like Barry Sanders  
George from PA : 4/18/2018 1:37 pm : link
as I have watch him play since HS...
I have a little bit of knowledge on him.

his passing catching skill are beyond Marshall Faulk....as he runs full routes like a wr.....not just screens etc
RE: I have been critical of Barkley  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 4/18/2018 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13918928 George from PA said:
Quote:
as I well aware of his short coming, but I am intrigued by having him on the field with OBJ and our other weapons....as he will dictate and cause high mismatches.

also help Eli immensely.

Bush is not a fair comparison.

he is more like Barry Sander.


Barry Sanders who can catch the football like Marshall Faulk
The mantras on RB's should not be changing at all  
Keith : 4/18/2018 1:45 pm : link
people are just being fooled by short term success. The mantra that it's a bad investment isn't changing at all, it seems to be justified in recent years.

Look no further than this thread...  
Keith : 4/18/2018 1:47 pm : link
The players noted are Gurley, Zeke, Fournette, Cook, Kamara...lets talk in 5 years when none of those guys are leading the NFL in rushing.
RE: Personnel packages don't change  
blueblood : 4/18/2018 1:59 pm : link
In comment 13918997 giants#1 said:
Quote:
based on where players line up and that is one of the reasons why a player like Barkley or even Engram is potentially such a big mismatch. With Barkley in the fold, the Giants can go:

- 12 personnel (Barkley, Engram, Ellison, Bechkam, Shepard) resulting in the D likely countering with their base D (43 or 34). The Giants can then line up in an empty backfield with a LB responsible for Barkley and/or Engram. Advantage: Giants
- 22 or 13 personnel with a FB or TE replacing SS. Once again, the D would counter with a base D or even subbing a DB for an extra LB/DL and the Giants can again create mismatches for Engram and/or Barkley.

If D's start countering by playing more nickel against the above personnel groupings, the Giants then need to take advantage on the ground (hopefully the OL is improved enough to do so). And if it's a "big nickel" (safety as 5th DB instead of a CB), then Barkley and/or Engram would still have a potential mismatch.


I agree and perhaps I stated that badly.. I was trying to emphasize that you could create mismatches with personnel. And you can do different things. The Giants could put 11 personnel on the field but then motion Barkley into the slot to create a mismatch with the LB.

Agree 100% LB's trying to cover Barkley and Engram would be a nightmare for most DC's.
RE: Look no further than this thread...  
Eman11 : 4/18/2018 2:00 pm : link
In comment 13919058 Keith said:
Quote:
The players noted are Gurley, Zeke, Fournette, Cook, Kamara...lets talk in 5 years when none of those guys are leading the NFL in rushing.


Done.

I'm looking forward to talking about where the four QBs talked about as potentially going 1-4 this year are in five years.
Gil Brandt ways in...  
GFAN52 : 4/18/2018 2:02 pm : link
Art Stapleton

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@art_stapleton
53m53 minutes ago
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@SiriusXMNFL's Gil Brandt with more praise for @saquon:
Says Saquon Barkley is the best RB prospect in the NFL Draft since Adrian Peterson, on conference call.
0 replies 4 retweets 6 likes
The key with him  
Joey in VA : 4/18/2018 2:04 pm : link
Is that he won't ever have to come off the field and his presence won't tip the play. As good as Leonard Fournette was last year, he came off the field on passing downs and was essentially a non factor in it. Now you have the threat of the run almost entirely removed when you see that. That's a HUGE advantage for the defense and it bit Jacksonville against the Pats because they swarmed Fournette and when he came out they knew it was time to throw.

The element of not tipping your hand based on personnel is enormous. Not only that but he's legitimately dangerous as a receiver, he's tough to cover and check because of his speed and stop and start ability. This isn't 3 yards and a cloud of dust RB, it's field stretching, home run hitting, keep the defense guessing type of stuff. People glossing over that simply aren't watching the NFL. Alvin Kamara was a god send for the Saints last year for precisely that reason, he was a swiss army knife. YES YES YES he was had later but his impact was due to his ability to be a receiver and keep defenses completely honest.
RE: Look no further than this thread...  
Brown Recluse : 4/18/2018 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13919058 Keith said:
Quote:
The players noted are Gurley, Zeke, Fournette, Cook, Kamara...lets talk in 5 years when none of those guys are leading the NFL in rushing.


Thats because Saquon Barkley will be leading the NFL in rushing.
RE: Look no further than this thread...  
UConn4523 : 4/18/2018 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13919058 Keith said:
Quote:
The players noted are Gurley, Zeke, Fournette, Cook, Kamara...lets talk in 5 years when none of those guys are leading the NFL in rushing.


Well Gurley is already on year 4 and getting better. Zeke will be on year 3 and will continue to be in the mix for leading the nfl in rushing. Four eyes running style I dont like long term but Im guessing hes going to be very good during his rookie contract.

Not really sure what your point is. If Barkley is special and we use him like Pitt uses Bell, his career should be longer and more productive of your standard RB. In other words, that line of thinking shouldnt apply to guys like Barkley if in fact you play on using them a certain way.

Lastly, leading the nfl in rushing wouldnt even be the goal with Barkley. Leading the league in total yards would be.
Fournettes  
UConn4523 : 4/18/2018 2:19 pm : link
not four eyes, haha
Can we get Ben R  
Keith : 4/18/2018 2:20 pm : link
who is light years better than Eli at actually utilizing the RB in the passing game?
RE: Can we get Ben R  
Brown Recluse : 4/18/2018 2:21 pm : link
In comment 13919115 Keith said:
Quote:
who is light years better than Eli at actually utilizing the RB in the passing game?


You mean the way Eli sucked at utilizing Tiki in the passing game?

Maybe we just haven't had a great RB to utilize.
Stop,  
Keith : 4/18/2018 2:25 pm : link
that was a different Eli ago. He's not that guy anymore, why can't certain people understand that. He's brutal at utilizing backs in the passing game because he can't navigate a rush anymore. He gets scared and goes down or throws the ball away. You need a QB that can move around and let the defenders keep dropping back to open up space for your backs. Ben is great at that. Eli is not.
RE: Maybe we just haven't had a great RB to utilize.  
Trainmaster : 4/18/2018 2:26 pm : link
+1
We've also been the worst  
Keith : 4/18/2018 2:26 pm : link
HB screen team for the past 7 years. I can probably count on my hand our successful HB screens. Let me guess...that's on the OC, the line, the TE's and the backs. Not Eli?
Theres a fuck ton more to what LeVeon Bell does  
UConn4523 : 4/18/2018 2:33 pm : link
than just run screens. The guy runs WR routes, and does it extremely well.
I change my mind every day  
Knee of Theismann : 4/18/2018 2:33 pm : link
but I'm watching Lamar Jackson highlights right now and imagining this guy after a year learning from Eli/Webb/Shurmur, joined up with Saquon, OBJ, Shep, Engram. Now that would would be fun to watch.

He could fall to our #34 pick with all the doubts about him.
RE: Theres a fuck ton more to what LeVeon Bell does  
Keith : 4/18/2018 2:34 pm : link
In comment 13919146 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
than just run screens. The guy runs WR routes, and does it extremely well.


When did I say that all Bell does is run screens?
You didnt but you are talking about Eli and screens  
UConn4523 : 4/18/2018 2:41 pm : link
and I dont think his history of it will matter much. If we draft Barkley he will be running a lot of routes.
RE: Stop,  
Brown Recluse : 4/18/2018 2:48 pm : link
In comment 13919129 Keith said:
Quote:
that was a different Eli ago. He's not that guy anymore, why can't certain people understand that. He's brutal at utilizing backs in the passing game because he can't navigate a rush anymore. He gets scared and goes down or throws the ball away. You need a QB that can move around and let the defenders keep dropping back to open up space for your backs. Ben is great at that. Eli is not.


Was he brutal at it only a couple years ago when Jennings and Vereen combined for almost 800 yards receiving? Or was it that we just hadn't had a good recieving back since Barber? That is the whole reason Vereen was signed, and he did well while he was healthy.
RE: imagine if Eli could throw a screen pass  
kelsto811 : 4/18/2018 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13919033 gtt350 said:
Quote:
.


Lol. I actually think he's gotten better over the years
Barkley  
MarineMan : 4/18/2018 3:35 pm : link
Lets get him and move forward!!!!! I been on the Barkley train from the beginning.
Eli is declining.. every 37 year old does  
blueblood : 4/18/2018 3:38 pm : link
i would just like to see how Eli would play with a decent OL and an actual running game and a coach who actually knows how to construct a decent offensive game plan..

The Giants havent had any of that for the last 2 years..

I remember when Ernie drafted Shockey  
Dr. D : 4/18/2018 3:55 pm : link
(I'm not comparing Shockey and Barkley), Ernie said don't look at Shockey as just a TE; he's a weapon and was drafted pretty high for a TE.

Barkley shouldn't be looked at as just a RB, but as an overall 3 down weapon. He could help everyone around him including the OL and Eli look better.
RE: The key with him  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/18/2018 7:52 pm : link
In comment 13919088 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Is that he won't ever have to come off the field and his presence won't tip the play. As good as Leonard Fournette was last year, he came off the field on passing downs and was essentially a non factor in it. Now you have the threat of the run almost entirely removed when you see that. That's a HUGE advantage for the defense and it bit Jacksonville against the Pats because they swarmed Fournette and when he came out they knew it was time to throw.

The element of not tipping your hand based on personnel is enormous. Not only that but he's legitimately dangerous as a receiver, he's tough to cover and check because of his speed and stop and start ability. This isn't 3 yards and a cloud of dust RB, it's field stretching, home run hitting, keep the defense guessing type of stuff. People glossing over that simply aren't watching the NFL. Alvin Kamara was a god send for the Saints last year for precisely that reason, he was a swiss army knife. YES YES YES he was had later but his impact was due to his ability to be a receiver and keep defenses completely honest.


I envision having an undefndable 80 reception 1000 yard slot/short yardage type presence again like Steve Smith or Cruz again.

But 40 lbs heavier, much stronger and greater core strength, much more agile, much more difficult to tackle and much faster. Oh yeah, and you can hand off to him.
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