of ‘winning, championship football’...
| “I wouldn’t want to put an endline on him, but I do agree with them that he can play winning, championship football for two years,” said Accorsi, who famously swung the 2004 draft day trade to bring Manning to New York. “Now, it may be more. I’m not saying that he can’t do more. But I don’t think there’s any question: What I saw last year in the Philadelphia game with what he had to play with, I definitely think he could still take a team to a title. I mean, obviously he has to be surrounded with a pretty good team. But I do.” |
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NYDN Lonk - (
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1. Injuries
2. Horrible team chmistry
3. Incompetent coach
4. Predictable offense
I mean again, his WRs for the last game was Sharp, Rudolph, and Bundy. Yeah, not good.
He will get a chance to redeem himself this year with healthy players, a new coach, a new offense. If he succeeds - great. If he is done - then play a young guy.
Its really that simple.
and yet BBI still refuses to believe it.
and yet BBI still refuses to believe it.
Actually, I'd guess more than half of BBI agrees with the above aforementioned.
I wonder if PS and DS have will modify what he is doing now mechanically. I remember that BM changed his whole drop back and foot work. I don't remember which pre- season it was 2 years ago? We couldn't even score a TD with BM offense in pre season no less.. ugh..
Bottom line is he's 37, there's no better time to draft his successor than now, if you believe that prospect is there.
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from Mara to Gettleman to Shurmer to Accorsi to Gilbride to Greg Cossell....
and yet BBI still refuses to believe it.
Actually, I'd guess more than half of BBI agrees with the above aforementioned.
Probably true, the silent majority.
2016 is the business model in which you can still win with Eli for another 1-2 years.
No its not. When you are evaluating someone's potential, their best moments to see what they are capable of. I'm sure he looked at Arizona too. I'm sure he's seen every game. So has Pat Shurmur...and he's not an idiot. Obviously, there are many variables to consider in every situation...but anyone who expects a quarterback to play champtionship football when as a team you only rush for 43 yards on 20 carries and your leading receiver is your blocking tight end with 60 yards...is kidding themselves.
Is Eli the same QB he was 10 years ago? Probably not. 10 years is a long time. Can he still play *winning* football with a good supporting cast of offensive linemen that doesn't leave him on his back within 2 seconds of hiking the ball and recievers that get open? Of course.
...at least 2 premium offensive lineman for our aging, jittery QB.
Why can't you? You can evaluate any position independent of the players around him.
A good runningback playing behind a bad offensive line can be evaluated on how he reads his blocks, for example. His abilty to cut and accelerate, or run routes. A WR playing without a quality QB can be evaluated on his ability to beat coverage, his ball skills, route running/. A LT playing on a bad team can be evaluated, and so on, etc.
Just because the scheme is bad and the WRs are bad doesn't mean you can't focus on a QB's play. Is he making correct reads, is he throwing good, catchable, well-timed passes? Plenty of things in football are reliant on the sum of the team, but single-player evaluations happen all the time.
The actual minority opinion is that there is a middle ground. Eli is still effective, but the window is closing and his play is dropping off, and not only due to the line and the talent around him.
Take away the bias towards Eli and it's plain as day to see he's not far from being finished. People keep citing the Eagles game. So he played 1 good game out of 15 and we should keep him around for 2 more years at 22 and 23 million a year? No thanks!
Not really, because you lose half the fundamental benefit of having a low cost QB on roster. The CBA gives 4 very low cost controlled year, and one moderate additional year.
No team going to eat $23,200,000 the following year when they can save $17,000,000 of it, with a viable option on the bench. At most any 1st round QB is going to sit a year.
Anyone want to guess who the best player on the field for NYG was that day?
The window is no longer 3-5 years, but there is still a window. This would have been proven true if Eli was made available. Teams like Jax, Denver, Minnesota all would have pounced.
and yet BBI still refuses to believe it.
I love Eli, but the dude is pretty close to cooked.
Anyone want to guess who the best player on the field for NYG was that day?
The window is no longer 3-5 years, but there is still a window. This would have been proven true if Eli was made available. Teams like Jax, Denver, Minnesota all would have pounced.
Jax would not have pounced, Minnesota would not have pounced. Maybe Denver would have made a trade.
With all due respect to him and his huge brass balls, Eli just isn't that good (and really, I love the guy). Six playoff appearances with four one-and-dones in fourteen seasons? He didn't exactly light it up even in his prime.
They talk about the Philly game and use the word "mirage," which suggests the rest of his season was a desert. And let's face it, it kinda was. The offense hasn't functioned well for years, and much of the blame goes to him.
And now you want to believe that they're not going to take a QB even with this golden opportunity because they think Eli has at most two more years of maddeningly frustrating play? Please.
They can say it all they want - it certainly behooves them to say it. And even if they actually mean it, I've seen every play of his career and I'm sorry but I'm just not buying it.
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from Mara to Gettleman to Shurmer to Accorsi to Gilbride to Greg Cossell....
and yet BBI still refuses to believe it.
Because we watch the games and see it's clearly not true.
I love Eli, but the dude is pretty close to cooked.
Lol you watch the games but they dont...doesnt that sound a bit ridiculous...
Huh? He was a Pro Bowler in 2015...
Not really. There is a pretty obvious difference between how Reese viewed Eli and how the current regime views Eli based on their respective commentary.
Why? Because if Accorsi is thinking this, I GUARANTEE the rest of Jints Central is thinking this - from that dingbat Mara to our near septuagenarian GM.
Accorsi is Mara’s warm blanket. He’s Mara’s safe space.
This clearly signals to me the clown show at Jints Central misses a golden opportunity and drafts Barkley.
He's 37, the window is closing because Father Time says so. It doesn't mean he can't be effective and win some football games, but wagering he's got enough to win a Super Bowl doesn't compute for me.
63% completion
4027 yards
26 TDs
16 picks
11-5 team record
In a nutshell, he's feeling pressure that's not there. However I'm confident Shurmur can work with him. If Eli plays well, he stays for another year. If he doesn't perform, then he will be traded or released.
He had a horrible offensive line and no running game though.
I think he's saying if Eli has really good talent around him...he can win.
I mean we all can say Eli is in decline because he is. But was his decline the last two years because of physical skills or McAdoos pathetic offense and Reese's inability to develop an OL?
If Eli comes back this year with a 4,000 yard and 30 TD season - does that mean he is done?
Even I didnt say that.
I dont know why people are wringing their hands with Eli starting this year. If he plays well - great. If we take Darnold or Rosen, and Eli stinks - they will get game experience and learn from Eli.
There really is a win/win situation. We arent expected to go anywhere this year - so we can let Eli play, get the QB, have him learn and watch and see what happens. Are we really going to be sad if Eli plays well and we somehow make the playoffs?
It wasnt bad. But it could have been much better. If not for our defense, he could have had the same stats and we may have won 4-5 games.
Now he's in decline and playing poorly 2 years in a row and it's the OL, the weapons, the running game, the system.
Eli went from being severly underrated to overrated since his benching. It's amazing what has happened.
Reality..the dude is 37 years old and he's had 2 bad seasons in a row. The odds of him returning to form are very slim. It's certainly possible, but we'd be moronic to plan for it to happen.
He's 37, the window is closing because Father Time says so. It doesn't mean he can't be effective and win some football games, but wagering he's got enough to win a Super Bowl doesn't compute for me.
Tend to agree. He's 37. The bad team is part of the reason he was ineffective last year, but he's also declining. We would ideally get a QB now, someone who can sit for a year or two, and take over in 2019 or 2020. Although I respect those who think otherwise, I don't believe there is a QB worthy of the #2 pick. But with Rosen apparently falling, one interesting scenario would be to trade down to seven or eight and draft him after acquiring extra picks. The risk of course is that somebody might trade up to draft him, but doing that could be a compromise between "win now" and using this draft to get our prospective future QB.
Now he's in decline and playing poorly 2 years in a row and it's the OL, the weapons, the running game, the system.
Eli went from being severly underrated to overrated since his benching. It's amazing what has happened.
Reality..the dude is 37 years old and he's had 2 bad seasons in a row. The odds of him returning to form are very slim. It's certainly possible, but we'd be moronic to plan for it to happen.
Yeah, we have to take a QB.
My only rebuttal is that Eli took a dive for the worse at the same time McAdoo came. Now did that fast forward his decline quicker than we want? Possibly. But when your offense is predictable like McAdoos was - I would argue many QBs would struggle. I mean, we had 90% of our plays from the same formation? We couldnt figure out how to beat a cover 2 defense?
Eli may be done. Id like to see him this year. And like I said, if he plays well and we win, awesome. If he continues to struggle, play the rookie. Learning from Eli is never a negative, IMO.
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WIth the last regime, Eli led the league in picks and it was the system and OC fault. The WRs and TE's all ran wrong routes, tipped balls. We heard it all.
Now he's in decline and playing poorly 2 years in a row and it's the OL, the weapons, the running game, the system.
Eli went from being severly underrated to overrated since his benching. It's amazing what has happened.
Reality..the dude is 37 years old and he's had 2 bad seasons in a row. The odds of him returning to form are very slim. It's certainly possible, but we'd be moronic to plan for it to happen.
Yeah, we have to take a QB.
My only rebuttal is that Eli took a dive for the worse at the same time McAdoo came. Now did that fast forward his decline quicker than we want? Possibly. But when your offense is predictable like McAdoos was - I would argue many QBs would struggle. I mean, we had 90% of our plays from the same formation? We couldnt figure out how to beat a cover 2 defense?
Eli may be done. Id like to see him this year. And like I said, if he plays well and we win, awesome. If he continues to struggle, play the rookie. Learning from Eli is never a negative, IMO.
I agree with all of this except the have to take a QB, I'm assuming at 2, but that's just because I have a different opinion about finding a QB.
I agree we need to be grooming Eli's replacement. I just don't believe that guy has to be at the 2nd overall pick. I'd rather take a pro offense style QB in a later round. Like Lauletta, who the Patriots are showing a lot of interest in.
One was a can't miss pick 2nd overall pick, one was a WTF 4th round pick.
One was a spread style QB, and one was a pro style QB.
One is now out of the league, and one just got a ton of money in FA.
The end of an era is coming. It sucks his career ended the way it did. But I said this before - as far as the most talented and best Giant as a player - he would be somewhere in the top 7-10. However, he may be the greatest Giant we ever saw as far as the total package. He may not be respected in the outside world as fans go. But anyone who played with him or coached him have never said a bad thing about him.
He will be in the ROH and number should be retired as well. I just hope fans remember this when the season goes and he makes some mistakes as games goes on.
What's troublesome as fans is we had such a colossal waste of a coach that we are left wondering what is Eli's fault from decline and what was the fault of a terrible offensive system. we also are left knowing nothing about Davis Webb too, because of that same coach.
I've been firmly in that middle ground for a few years now where I think Eli is good enough to win on a team with an above average D and an adequate OL, but I'd welcome drafting a QB to succeed him and we need to plan the succession sooner than later.
I really don't see how you judge 2017 based on the shitshow that occurred. I think people see what they want to see and there is huge confirmation bias in everyone's "analysis".
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is increasing, and hit an ugly high in 2017. It's not all on Eli, due to injuries, system and character problems etc, but he was part of the problem.
He's 37, the window is closing because Father Time says so. It doesn't mean he can't be effective and win some football games, but wagering he's got enough to win a Super Bowl doesn't compute for me.
Tend to agree. He's 37. The bad team is part of the reason he was ineffective last year, but he's also declining. We would ideally get a QB now, someone who can sit for a year or two, and take over in 2019 or 2020. Although I respect those who think otherwise, I don't believe there is a QB worthy of the #2 pick. But with Rosen apparently falling, one interesting scenario would be to trade down to seven or eight and draft him after acquiring extra picks. The risk of course is that somebody might trade up to draft him, but doing that could be a compromise between "win now" and using this draft to get our prospective future QB.
If the decision is they don't believe in a QB at #2 in this draft, I have no problem with it. Load up and let's go to war behind Eli.
But, if they covet a QB now is the time to get him.
63% completion
4027 yards
26 TDs
16 picks
11-5 team record
He was 27th in total QBR in 2016. He was below average at best.
Yes, there is a HUGE difference between Lauletta and Webb.
Webb comes from a spread offense and never took a snap from under center. Lauletta comes from a pro style offense and took snaps under center in college.
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377-598
63% completion
4027 yards
26 TDs
16 picks
11-5 team record
He was 27th in total QBR in 2016. He was below average at best.
Using 1 stat to prop up or shoot down a QB is risky. Sometimes you have to find a middle ground.
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we have a lot of holes. If you think the team needs a QB, take the best one, not the 8th best one. If you like a project, we have one on the team. I mean is there a big difference from Laudetta and Webb? Having both on the team seems to be wasted resoruces to me.
Yes, there is a HUGE difference between Lauletta and Webb.
Webb comes from a spread offense and never took a snap from under center. Lauletta comes from a pro style offense and took snaps under center in college.
One played against top competition, and one didnt. And trust me I am not much of a Webb fan. Both are developmental guys.
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In comment 13920282 dep026 said:
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we have a lot of holes. If you think the team needs a QB, take the best one, not the 8th best one. If you like a project, we have one on the team. I mean is there a big difference from Laudetta and Webb? Having both on the team seems to be wasted resoruces to me.
Yes, there is a HUGE difference between Lauletta and Webb.
Webb comes from a spread offense and never took a snap from under center. Lauletta comes from a pro style offense and took snaps under center in college.
One played against top competition, and one didnt. And trust me I am not much of a Webb fan. Both are developmental guys.
For me, it's all about spread offense vs. pro style offense. That's my main thing.
Spread offense QB's struggle to make the transition to the NFL if they don't go into the right system.
They have many deficiencies that pro style offenses don't have.
-They don't know how to diagnose defenses
-They don't take snaps under center
-They don't audible
Correct.
Think about this for a second, McAdoo brought a half-assed version of the Packers offense here to NY. A system where you need your QB to be Aaron Rodgers, and nothing less to succeed. Every time Rodgers went down, the GB offense went to complete shit. Any system that relies so heavily on your QB to be All-World is flawed IMO.
Even more so, when you have an immobile 37-year-old pocket passer as your QB, with no offensive line, and not more than 1 weapon at a time over the last 4 years.
Really not sure what some of you expected.
The timing of all of this sucks because the Giants are in prime position to take a QB this year and we really dont know what Eli has left (or what Webb has to offer). For all we know, those calling for Eli's head MAY be right, but we wont know either way until we see what he can do this year.
Eli was good/great in both Eagle games. He had a very good game in SF, in Tampa, and was having a good game vs the Chargers too before he lost every single starting WR in that game.
These guys are human. It's a different mindset playing a game in October knowing that you're just playing out the string. Although it's the only real metric we can use, I think it's a bit unfair to judge him based on last year.
I think last year should just be thrown out the window to be honest, but I would also not hesitate to kiss Eli on the mouth either, so take this FWIW
With all due respect to him and his huge brass balls, Eli just isn't that good (and really, I love the guy). Six playoff appearances with four one-and-dones in fourteen seasons? He didn't exactly light it up even in his prime.
They talk about the Philly game and use the word "mirage," which suggests the rest of his season was a desert. And let's face it, it kinda was. The offense hasn't functioned well for years, and much of the blame goes to him.
And now you want to believe that they're not going to take a QB even with this golden opportunity because they think Eli has at most two more years of maddeningly frustrating play? Please.
They can say it all they want - it certainly behooves them to say it. And even if they actually mean it, I've seen every play of his career and I'm sorry but I'm just not buying it.
Natty - What I think they are setting up is that the drafted QB sits this year and maybe starts to play in 2019 when Eli is in his last year. And Webb will be the backup this year. So the question to me is, are they really drafting a guy to hold a clipboard for a year or more?
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if we use our eyes to see the entire 2017 season, and the two seasons before it.
Huh? He was a Pro Bowler in 2015...
I think he was like the 4th alternate.. so they get 3 to begin with then they go to the alernates.. so 7th QB to be selected to probowl from NFC that season.. That season here were the other pro bowlers:
Tyrod Tayor
David Carr
Jameis Winston
Teddy Bridgewater...
Regardless of where you fall on the Eli spectrum, he represents the best starter at the position at this time for NYG. Giants brass are not going to bash him one bit even if they have watched the video and question his abilities.
Regardless of where you fall on the Eli spectrum, he represents the best starter at the position at this time for NYG. Giants brass are not going to bash him one bit even if they have watched the video and question his abilities.
I guess you missed the past few years that Reese and McAdoo were constantly throwing Eli under the bus.
There's only a handful of fans who think Manning is shot, or as bad frankly as he looked last year. The extreme majority of fans realize the team sucked top to bottom.
What a lot of fans feel is the team is far away from good, and would need transcendent QB play to go from shitsuck to championship in the next few years.
I see the chest bumps now when Manning has a moderately improved season playing every snap and the Giants climb to 7-9, which of course is the absolute worst thing for the future of the team.
Maybe a better way for me to say it is in 98% of cases teams will only back their players.
But the Giants don't have a stacked roster otherwise to win in spite of him managing a game...
But the Giants don't have a stacked roster otherwise to win in spite of him managing a game...
I see this comparison a lot. There really is no merit to it.
A. Peyton had had 4 Neck Surgeries in two years, and a noodle arm at that point. There were doubts he'd ever play again after that year he lost. Eli has never had anything close that that.
B. Peyton was 40 years old at that point, in addition to the injuries.
Are we all growing as a whole? If so, keith is looking to give hugs and rubs to everyone.
This is a time to be proactive, rather than reactive. You don't wait until the building has collapsed to repair the foundation.
That wasn't really my meaning. My meaning is that is we believe Eli has two years left, we know we're going to have a need to fill that position in two years. We shouldn't wait until then to address the issue if we have the best possible situation to do so now.
But if we're talking about the Giants being the building that's collapsed, that's damning of Eli because he was a part of that.
Either way, it's time to move on. The only sound argument for keeping him and not drafting a quarterback is that we feel we can win a title with him in these two years. Personally I don't think we can.
Objectivity when it comes to Eli is gone. He is what he is at this point. A formerly great player who is now a bottom 1/3rd QB. Can he still flash? Yes. Should he be given the starting job with no competition? Absolutely not. Should the Giants pretend like they don't need to draft a QB? Only if they like picking top 5 in the draft for the foreseeable future.
Has the decline begun with Brady? Brees? Rivers? Roethlisberger? Come on guys - this is about Eli being an unthrilling and immobile quarterback who just happens to be statistically one of the top quarterbacks of all time and a two time super bowl winner and MVP.
Love him or hate him, this is still the same Eli we have always known. Give him weapons and an offensive line and he is a pro bowler in 2018. He has at least two years left and likely several more after that...
Yes it has.
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So now Eli had a good 2016. This is why you can't have reasonable conversations about Eli.
Objectivity when it comes to Eli is gone. He is what he is at this point. A formerly great player who is now a bottom 1/3rd QB. Can he still flash? Yes. Should he be given the starting job with no competition? Absolutely not. Should the Giants pretend like they don't need to draft a QB? Only if they like picking top 5 in the draft for the foreseeable future.
correction,manning has never been great,good yes.
His skills diminished rapidly by the end of of 2014 at the age of 38 and he was a straight up game manager benched (or injured some would argue) for Brock O for several games during the regular season.
Eli is 37 and was never as good as Peyton.
I love Eli - but he's toast and it's time to move on.
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Has the decline begun with Brady? Brees? Rivers? Roethlisberger?
Yes it has.
And yet the Saints just gave Brees a two year fifty million dollar contract at 39... and the Patriots traded Garoppolo, who is miles ahead of any of these four quarterback prospects, for a second round pick with Brady about to turn 41. And not a single mock draft I have seen has the Steelers or Chargers selecting a quarterback - in any round!
But these are just facts - don't let them get in the way of your story...
I take back aboout what a good thread this is. Theres always 1!
QB prospects...
Don't you love it when people inject their opinions into a discussion as fact?
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based on 6 starts? And thats a fact?
Don't you love it when people inject their opinions into a discussion as fact?
I think his point is that despite these teams having QB's of the age that posters on BBI consider over the hill, they are not frantically searching for/grooming replacements. They are still trying to win around their respective QB's.
1) 2014 draft pick - four year veteran in the NFL
2) Tutelage under Belichick, McDaniels and Brady
3) $137.5 MM contract from 49ers - at the time of the signing on 2/8/18, the largest contract ever granted on an annual basis to any player in NFL history
Yes, thank you for the correction as clearly "miles ahead" is not an accurate assessment. He is light years ahead...
Eli carried the offense in 2011 (threw for almost 5,000 yards) when the team's rushing offense was terrible. But that's not going to happen anymore at his age.
Giants rushing ranking the past two seasons:
2016: #29
2017: #26
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based on 6 starts? And thats a fact?
1) 2014 draft pick - four year veteran in the NFL
2) Tutelage under Belichick, McDaniels and Brady
3) $137.5 MM contract from 49ers - at the time of the signing on 2/8/18, the largest contract ever granted on an annual basis to any player in NFL history
Yes, thank you for the correction as clearly "miles ahead" is not an accurate assessment. He is light years ahead...
lol, thumbs up buddy.
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In comment 13920489 dep026 said:
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based on 6 starts? And thats a fact?
Don't you love it when people inject their opinions into a discussion as fact?
I think his point is that despite these teams having QB's of the age that posters on BBI consider over the hill, they are not frantically searching for/grooming replacements. They are still trying to win around their respective QB's.
Man people go to extremes.
As regards to Ben, people are forgetting how people were telling him after week 8 last year that he needed to consider retirement. Then he won a few games, his guys around him made plays and everything is well.
Do you realize what you are saying? The Giants may be fully behind him - which is also what they have to say - but that does not mean they are not going to draft his successor this season. Additionally, your statement says he will be allowed to finish his contract here if he plays well. He has not played well in at least two seasons. Yes, there are excuses for that. But, simply put, I do not think Gettleman and Shurmur are going to put their legacies with the Giants on the arm of a 37 and 38 year old QB who is schedule to make a ton of money.
Are the Steelers not fully behind Big Ben if they draft a QB in the latter part of the 1st? Same with the Pats and Brady? The Giants will start Eli in 2018 and allow him to play until this team either tanks or it is clear he can no longer hack it. Then they will turn the reins over to - hopefully - the #2 pick in this year's draft.
Objectivity is needed here:
Player A - 21 years old, 5 year contract @ ~$6M/year
Player B - 37 years old, 2 year contract @ $22M/year
There is only one acceptable reason to go with Player B: you can win a Super Bowl with him now or next year but you can not with Player A.
Not drafting a QB at 2 this year isn't a death sentence in finding another QB.
Not drafting a QB at 2 this year isn't a death sentence in finding another QB.
Of course not, but why not get that QB now when we know we are assured of getting one of the top prospects in the entire draft?
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pick in the draft.
Not drafting a QB at 2 this year isn't a death sentence in finding another QB.
Of course not, but why not get that QB now when we know we are assured of getting one of the top prospects in the entire draft?
Because if you look at the recent history of the draft, since Luck, the odds aren't much higher of finding that franchise QB in the top 5 as compared to the rest of the draft. They may even be worse.
The past two guys to get giant paydays deemed worthy of franchise level QB were drafted in the 2nd and 4th round, respectively.
Spread QB's are a risky proposition. It's well documented.
The incorporation of the spread offense into college football has made it more and more difficult to evaluate quarterback prospects. College quarterbacks are putting up video game-like numbers in wide-open offenses that pass the ball much more than ever before.
The spread offense has found its way to the NFL, too, along with the spread quarterbacks. Kansas City Chiefs offensive coordinator Brad Childress was charged with the task of studying the spread offense for Andy Reid when Doug Pederson, who is now the Eagles head coach, was running the Chiefs offense.
Childress was given the title of “spread game analyst” when he first joined the Chiefs staff. He was the subject of a study by The Ringer on the spread offense and how it influences scouting quarterbacks.
The ultimate prospect in Childress’ eyes is a quarterback who ran some spread concepts in college that can be incorporated into an NFL offense.
One way the NFL game is much different from college football is how the offense gets into a huddle and has a play called. In college, many quarterbacks play without a huddle and call plays with hand signals.
While it may seem sexy at the college level, this kind of football can hurt a prospect’s adjustment to the NFL.
“[College spread quarterbacks] never had to say ‘red switch right closed end right split Z halfback flat’ — they don’t know who to talk to when and when to take a breath,” Childress said. “You don’t realize how big a problem the center-quarterback exchange is until the ball is rolling on the ground at practice and you’re saying ‘Oh my God.’”
Carson Wentz is the rare prospect that was able to make adjustments at the line of scrimmage, call actual plays in the huddle and execute some spread concepts. Childress mentioned Wentz as one of the prospects that will benefit from running a scheme in college that blended spread and pro-style concepts.
The Eagles aggressively moved up in the draft to select Wentz at No. 2 overall. Howie Roseman, who was in charge of the Eagles’ draft process, raved about Wentz as a prospect when the trade to acquire the second overall pick was announced.
Roseman said the changes in the college game had warranted a different way of evaluating quarterbacks. He identified the offense that Wentz ran at North Dakota State as “a pro-style concept that hints at where the sport is going.”
Rather than relying on game film, Roseman put more of an emphasis on test scores and football IQ. The analytics outweighed the film.
While many knock Wentz’s college playing days because North Dakota State is an FCS school, his scheme there actually gave him an advantage over others. Wentz pointed out how his time in college will help him make the jump to the NFL.
“You know, it helped me tremendously,” Wentz said at his introductory press conference in April. “I think the transition for me will be a lot smoother than most would think and than [it might be for] most other prospects.
“At North Dakota State, I was in charge of a lot of things at the line of scrimmage, a lot of play-action pass; I was in charge of the audibles, run game checks, you name it. I think that helped me tremendously, set me up for an easier, smoother transition.”
Now well into his first training camp, Wentz has impressed the coaching staff with his preparation and grasp of the offense. Only time will tell when Wentz will be able to put it all together on the field for the Eagles.
USA Today 8/25/16 - ( New Window )
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And not a single mock draft I have seen has the Steelers or Chargers selecting a quarterback - in any round!
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Well while you were perusing those mock draft you may have noticed that none of those teams have the 2nd fucking selection in the draft.
If any of those teams were in the top 5 they'd be taking a hard look at the QBs.
But don't let the facts get in the way.
Look I love Eli Manning. Absolutely love him and always will. But sentimentality can't be part of the thought process here. Even if there weren't concerns (which I feel are valid) about his performance, the smart move in our situation would be to draft the QB and move/release Eli. Now that second part is hard because of the dead money...it would be less difficult if we didn't have so much money tied up poorly elsewhere...but if it's possible the Giants should do it.
If I were running the Pats and had the second pick overall in this draft, I would draft one of these guys and move Brady. And Brady was the MVP last year.
Objectivity is needed here:
Player A - 21 years old, 5 year contract @ ~$6M/year
Player B - 37 years old, 2 year contract @ $22M/year
There is only one acceptable reason to go with Player B: you can win a Super Bowl with him now or next year but you can not with Player A.
Objectivity is needed here:
Player A - 21 years old, 5 year contract @ ~$6M/year
Player B - 37 years old, 2 year contract @ $22M/year
There is only one acceptable reason to go with Player B: you can win a Super Bowl with him now or next year but you can not with Player A.
Spot on. This is such an important aspect that fans are overlooking. I agree with you completely.
Go Terps : 12:07 pm : link : reply
And if they were, I would advise them to draft a replacement QB as well.
Objectivity is needed here:
Player A - 21 years old, 5 year contract @ ~$6M/year
Player B - 37 years old, 2 year contract @ $22M/year
There is only one acceptable reason to go with Player B: you can win a Super Bowl with him now or next year but you can not with Player A.
The difference in the 2 players is 7% of the cap. 15 years ago when the difference was 20% of the cap - it is a valid concern, but the idea that you woin with cheap QB's and then jettison them before they get paid a second contract hardly has any historical examples of working out, and certainly not in the long run.
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Has the decline begun with Brady? Brees? Rivers? Roethlisberger?
Yes it has.
And yet the Saints just gave Brees a two year fifty million dollar contract at 39... and the Patriots traded Garoppolo, who is miles ahead of any of these four quarterback prospects, for a second round pick with Brady about to turn 41. And not a single mock draft I have seen has the Steelers or Chargers selecting a quarterback - in any round!
But these are just facts - don't let them get in the way of your story...
I'll see your mock drafts and raise you actual, reported interest.
Mason Rudolph and Lamar Jackson have each received interest from the Pittsburgh Steelers leading up to the 2018 NFL Draft.
Pittsburgh met with Rudolph during the NFL Combine, while Mike Tomlin, General Manager Kevin Colbert and offensive coordinator Randy Fichtner attended Jackson's Pro Day last week. Colbert has not ruled out selecting a quarterback in this year's draft, as the Steelers want Ben Roethlisberger's successor to be mentored by Big Ben before No.7 hangs up his cleats for good.
"Of course you have to get ready to replace him," Colbert recently told NBC Sports. "We’ve tried to add young quarterbacks into the mix. We’ve done it with Landry Jones, we’ve done it with Josh Dobbs. We’ve tried to do that just to keep some young guys in the system. But at some point, you may draft a quarterback higher. But as long as you have Ben Roethlisberger playing for you, you’re hopefully not in a position where you’re going to get Ben that high. The year we got Ben we were coming off a losing season. And that was very unfortunate — the losing season — but we were very fortunate to get him."
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/zeise-is-right/2018/03/20/steelers-nfl-mock-draft-linebackers-safeties-lamar-jackson-mason-rudolph/stories/201803200092
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/lamar-jackson-pro-day-results-analysis-steelers-2018-nfl-draft/1lrgc5g6uxeud1qdxwd6jur04m
And we're not talking about jettisoning a 26 year old QB. We're talking about a 37 year old that even according to the man that traded for him has 2 years left.
It is the one position that trumps everything else. Sure Barkley could turn out to be better but its not about who is the better player, its about who makes the better the team better. On average a solid QB makes a team better for a longer period of time.
Look at the teams that have a solid to good QB. They are always competing for the playoffs. The great QBs have their teams in the playoffs almost every year. Then there are the 10-15 teams who dont have a QB. They rarely compete for the playoffs. Sometimes things come together and they get it done and then go back to reality of not having a QB.
The Giants are in that lower level pattern right now. Eli is a bottom half QB. He is not raising the level of the players around him anymore and needs a better team to help him. Its time for a new QB. A single RB is not going to make Eli better and then we will be on the search for a new QB. I would rather take my chance this year when the cost is just a 1st round pick. Next year it may cost us 2 1st rounders for a chance or more.
People, this team has scored 30 points 0 times over the past 2 years. Everyone blames mcadoos offense as the problem. Well Manning didn't seem to have a problem with Mcadoos offense in 2014 or 2015! Why....because he wasn't declining yet! He is now! Eli's strength was always to push the ball deep, they scored a lot of points in those years because he could get to Cruz, Burress, Nicks, Manningham, hell even Beckham. His arm strength and accuracy declined, that's why he's missing wide open receivers downfield with regularity. Everyone is quick to blame the offensive line. Ok, they weren't that good, but there was enough times last year where he was given time and missed throws downfield.
His strength was never in the intermediate to short game with pinpoint passing and accuracy, which is what you need to be successful as you age at the qb position. Therefore, we are seeing the results of these two widely accepted ideas intersecting and a noticeable decline.
I've heard a lot people trying to justify Eli's existence in the basis of Brees, Brady, and Ben. Can anyone tell me the last time a Brees led offense didn't score 30 points in a single season, let alone 2. You all love to bring up the fact that a running back resurrected Brees career. But you all left out the fact that in 2016, the 7-9 saints team, was second in the NFL in scoring!! Brees threw 37 td passes. His career wasn't resurrected because of a freakin running back, the offense declined slightly in 2017, it was because the defense stopped giving up 100 points a game.
Eli is on borrowed time now, he doesn't have the ability he once did, and according to some fans what we should all hope for is a 20m plus a year game manager?? He ll be fine if we put an all time great team around him? Should we be happy passing on a future qb because we might go 8-8 the next two seasons?
The differences in the offense from Mac being OC and then being the HC are stark and numerous.
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Well Manning didn't seem to have a problem with Mcadoos offense in 2014 or 2015!
The differences in the offense from Mac being OC and then being the HC are stark and numerous.
You're wasting your time on people unwilling to accept or listen to that.
Actually, his completion % increased on downfield throws the past two years.
But here's the difference - we threw and completed 20+ yard passes in 2015 in the Top 5 of the league. In 016 and 2017 we were last and next to last.
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exercise really need to be repeated on 2015 being TC's offense?
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Well Manning didn't seem to have a problem with Mcadoos offense in 2014 or 2015!
The differences in the offense from Mac being OC and then being the HC are stark and numerous.
You're wasting your time on people unwilling to accept or listen to that.
It's illogical to believe Manning had years of productive football left. I get, it's hard to let go, I love Eli as well.
I also love have people take one snippet for a well reaosned position and completely disregard the rest. You are also all the same people pounding the Brees can still do it, so can Eli, table.
You are all going to get what you ask for, two to three more years of almost...woulda...coulda...if only we had that one play back...7-9 8-8 teams where Eli throws 22 tds and 15 ints and leads a league average offense.
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His arm strength and accuracy declined, that's why he's missing wide open receivers downfield with regularity.
Actually, his completion % increased on downfield throws the past two years.
But here's the difference - we threw and completed 20+ yard passes in 2015 in the Top 5 of the league. In 016 and 2017 we were last and next to last.
Ummmm what??? Doesn't Eli play a part in the last and next to last percentage in 2016 and 2017. I just can't.
You don't think that's indicative of the system instead of the QB, especially since Eli completed a higher % of those throws??
I'll say it again - we were among the league leaders is 20+ passes in 2015 and then we instead went to a short passing offense.
No, you are all right, Eli- at 37 years old- after leading one of the worst offenses in the league will turn back into 2011 Eli and we ll win the sb.
You want evidence, go turn on a game from 2016/2017.
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But the decline has begun and at this point I don't see him elevating much around him. We know where the previous administration stood on this. This current group is saying all the right things but actions speak. They may not deem the available QBs worthy when they are on the clock, but they are certainly doing their homework on possible replacements. I previously assumed it were QB at 2 or not at all --now I'm not so sure.
Has the decline begun with Brady? Brees? Rivers? Roethlisberger? Come on guys - this is about Eli being an unthrilling and immobile quarterback who just happens to be statistically one of the top quarterbacks of all time and a two time super bowl winner and MVP.
Love him or hate him, this is still the same Eli we have always known. Give him weapons and an offensive line and he is a pro bowler in 2018. He has at least two years left and likely several more after that...
In terms of him being the same Eli, I do not believe so. I do not believe he handles pressure in the pocket as well as he did a few years back. He also doesn't hit on his deep ball like he once did. IMO, it is not all due to more pressure. Even when he has time, he hits with the deep ball less frequency than he used to.
Eli has been an iron man for a long time. These things can take their toll.
It is impossible to remove the QB and his performance from the environment around him. None of us can say with certainty how much of it is due to Eli himself verses lack of things around him. But to the best of my estimation of such things, I am not seeing the player he once was. It doesn't mean there aren't glimpses and it doesn't mean he's done. He is still a starting caliber QB capable of playing winning football provided enough help around him, but he is not more than an average starter at this point, to my eyes, and sometimes once the decline sets in, it can accelerate rapidly. That is a reality this team needs to prepare for, whether they select a QB @2 or not.
Objectivity is needed here:
Player A - 21 years old, 5 year contract @ ~$6M/year
Player B - 37 years old, 2 year contract @ $22M/year
There is only one acceptable reason to go with Player B: you can win a Super Bowl with him now or next year but you can not with Player A.
Player A - Possibly Ryan Leaf 2.0 setting your franchise back 8 yearx
Player B - 37 year old never injured two time SB MVP
Ernie loves the sound of his own voice.
Rivers, Roethlisberger, Brady, and Brees don't matter because they don't have the #2 pick. And I wouldn't be surprised if at least 2 of those teams don't look at the likes of Lamar Jackson or Kyle Lauletta.
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And if they were, I would advise them to draft a replacement QB as well.
Objectivity is needed here:
Player A - 21 years old, 5 year contract @ ~$6M/year
Player B - 37 years old, 2 year contract @ $22M/year
There is only one acceptable reason to go with Player B: you can win a Super Bowl with him now or next year but you can not with Player A.
Player A - Possibly Ryan Leaf 2.0 setting your franchise back 8 yearx
Player B - 37 year old never injured two time SB MVP
Ryan Leaf 2.0 wouldn't set you back 8 years in the modern NFL because of the rookie salary cap.
That being said, why can't we have Player A and Player B? It worked for Green Bay.
He had an interception percentage of 10%, the league average is 6.1%.
I would say he was good throwing the deep ball.
And before we blame the system or the injuries they threw 1.8% less deep passes last year than in 2014, which amounts to 10 passes total for the year.
there's a point to which you can blame the surrounding cast or help he got. However, there were plenty of times Eli had opportunities and, yes, he himself, was just as bad.
I know there's a majority that think he hasn't declined at all, but I believe he has to a degree. Has he declined to where he cant get the job done, Hell no. But, it's there at times.
I'm very interested and hope that the build a great supporting cast for him (ie OL ETC) and see if that was the main cause of his bad play or not. I may be wrong but I believe he's come down a bit in his play..time will tell
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we have a lot of holes. If you think the team needs a QB, take the best one, not the 8th best one. If you like a project, we have one on the team. I mean is there a big difference from Laudetta and Webb? Having both on the team seems to be wasted resoruces to me.
Yes, there is a HUGE difference between Lauletta and Webb.
Webb comes from a spread offense and never took a snap from under center. Lauletta comes from a pro style offense and took snaps under center in college.
A HUGE difference because one played in a spread offense? This cannot be serious. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that you have a soft spot for Lauletta simply because he played for Richmond, in your back yard. I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on him but from everything I’ve read on him he has serious arm strength concerns. I think you saying there is a HUGE difference between them is hysterical. One took snaps under center, so let’s ignore the ability to actually make all the throws aspect of the position. Come on now, Britt.
Yet another feel good post from FMiC, now he feels himself superior to Accorsi. Unfortunately I started reading this before I noticed the name, I got to dementia and realized who it was.
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In comment 13920292 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13920282 dep026 said:
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we have a lot of holes. If you think the team needs a QB, take the best one, not the 8th best one. If you like a project, we have one on the team. I mean is there a big difference from Laudetta and Webb? Having both on the team seems to be wasted resoruces to me.
Yes, there is a HUGE difference between Lauletta and Webb.
Webb comes from a spread offense and never took a snap from under center. Lauletta comes from a pro style offense and took snaps under center in college.
One played against top competition, and one didnt. And trust me I am not much of a Webb fan. Both are developmental guys.
For me, it's all about spread offense vs. pro style offense. That's my main thing.
Spread offense QB's struggle to make the transition to the NFL if they don't go into the right system.
They have many deficiencies that pro style offenses don't have.
-They don't know how to diagnose defenses
-They don't take snaps under center
-They don't audible
Actually its well documented that Webb was given great leeway to audible plays at Cal.
Not saying that doesn't make Webb a project though.
Think about this for a second, McAdoo brought a half-assed version of the Packers offense here to NY. A system where you need your QB to be Aaron Rodgers, and nothing less to succeed. Every time Rodgers went down, the GB offense went to complete shit. Any system that relies so heavily on your QB to be All-World is flawed IMO.
Even more so, when you have an immobile 37-year-old pocket passer as your QB, with no offensive line, and not more than 1 weapon at a time over the last 4 years.
Really not sure what some of you expected.
The timing of all of this sucks because the Giants are in prime position to take a QB this year and we really dont know what Eli has left (or what Webb has to offer). For all we know, those calling for Eli's head MAY be right, but we wont know either way until we see what he can do this year.
+1
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a fucking moth to a flame.
I take back aboout what a good thread this is. Theres always 1!
And usually the same 1
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already has dementia since he's several years older than Gettleman and DG is too old to be an effective GM apparently
Yet another feel good post from FMiC, now he feels himself superior to Accorsi. Unfortunately I started reading this before I noticed the name, I got to dementia and realized who it was.
Ummm me thinks you are very bad at detecting sarcasm...
Aren't you the guy that has been ranting about the BBI bullies? Hello other foot - this is shoe.
And yet you can't even understand a fucking sarcastic comment?
Awesome.
We will find out. Period.
Gettleman: Ernie, its Dave.
Accorsi: What's up?
Gettleman: Do me a solid, and go on the record saying Eli has 2 years of championship football left in him.
Accorsi: Sure thing, why?
Gettleman: I just want to make sure that consistent theme we have been playing is out there in going into the Draft. It only helps us no matter if he does or does not.
Accorsi: No problem, I will ping the Daily News in a few minutes.
Gettleman: Thanks
Gettleman: Ernie, its Dave.
Accorsi: What's up?
Gettleman: Do me a solid, and go on the record saying Eli has 2 years of championship football left in him.
Accorsi: Sure thing, why?
Gettleman: I just want to make sure that consistent theme we have been playing is out there in going into the Draft. It only helps us no matter if he does or does not.
Accorsi: No problem, I will ping the Daily News in a few minutes.
Gettleman: Thanks
Lmao...hey buddy you are obviously a very talented screenwriter...!!
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In comment 13920069 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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already has dementia since he's several years older than Gettleman and DG is too old to be an effective GM apparently
Yet another feel good post from FMiC, now he feels himself superior to Accorsi. Unfortunately I started reading this before I noticed the name, I got to dementia and realized who it was.
Ummm me thinks you are very bad at detecting sarcasm...
I caught the sarcasm of the second part about DG, it is a dig aimed at another poster who admittedly did not have a very good op.
It stands alone as a dig against that poster. The part about Accorsi was unnecessary. Perhaps I was was wrong, if so mea culpa, but I read it as a dig against Accorsi and a dig against the other poster.
However you want to slice it is still FMiC being himself with another unpleasant post, that simply isn't very humorous.
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Accorsi: Hello?
Gettleman: Ernie, its Dave.
Accorsi: What's up?
Gettleman: Do me a solid, and go on the record saying Eli has 2 years of championship football left in him.
Accorsi: Sure thing, why?
Gettleman: I just want to make sure that consistent theme we have been playing is out there in going into the Draft. It only helps us no matter if he does or does not.
Accorsi: No problem, I will ping the Daily News in a few minutes.
Gettleman: Thanks
Lmao...hey buddy you are obviously a very talented screenwriter...!!
If you and the Daily News can make up gossip, so can I...