of ‘winning, championship football’...
| “I wouldn’t want to put an endline on him, but I do agree with them that he can play winning, championship football for two years,” said Accorsi, who famously swung the 2004 draft day trade to bring Manning to New York. “Now, it may be more. I’m not saying that he can’t do more. But I don’t think there’s any question: What I saw last year in the Philadelphia game with what he had to play with, I definitely think he could still take a team to a title. I mean, obviously he has to be surrounded with a pretty good team. But I do.” |
Didn't see this posted...
Enjoy...!!
NYDN Lonk - (
New Window )
His skills diminished rapidly by the end of of 2014 at the age of 38 and he was a straight up game manager benched (or injured some would argue) for Brock O for several games during the regular season.
Eli is 37 and was never as good as Peyton.
I love Eli - but he's toast and it's time to move on.
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Has the decline begun with Brady? Brees? Rivers? Roethlisberger?
Yes it has.
And yet the Saints just gave Brees a two year fifty million dollar contract at 39... and the Patriots traded Garoppolo, who is miles ahead of any of these four quarterback prospects, for a second round pick with Brady about to turn 41. And not a single mock draft I have seen has the Steelers or Chargers selecting a quarterback - in any round!
But these are just facts - don't let them get in the way of your story...
I take back aboout what a good thread this is. Theres always 1!
QB prospects...
Don't you love it when people inject their opinions into a discussion as fact?
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based on 6 starts? And thats a fact?
Don't you love it when people inject their opinions into a discussion as fact?
I think his point is that despite these teams having QB's of the age that posters on BBI consider over the hill, they are not frantically searching for/grooming replacements. They are still trying to win around their respective QB's.
1) 2014 draft pick - four year veteran in the NFL
2) Tutelage under Belichick, McDaniels and Brady
3) $137.5 MM contract from 49ers - at the time of the signing on 2/8/18, the largest contract ever granted on an annual basis to any player in NFL history
Yes, thank you for the correction as clearly "miles ahead" is not an accurate assessment. He is light years ahead...
Eli carried the offense in 2011 (threw for almost 5,000 yards) when the team's rushing offense was terrible. But that's not going to happen anymore at his age.
Giants rushing ranking the past two seasons:
2016: #29
2017: #26
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based on 6 starts? And thats a fact?
1) 2014 draft pick - four year veteran in the NFL
2) Tutelage under Belichick, McDaniels and Brady
3) $137.5 MM contract from 49ers - at the time of the signing on 2/8/18, the largest contract ever granted on an annual basis to any player in NFL history
Yes, thank you for the correction as clearly "miles ahead" is not an accurate assessment. He is light years ahead...
lol, thumbs up buddy.
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In comment 13920489 dep026 said:
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based on 6 starts? And thats a fact?
Don't you love it when people inject their opinions into a discussion as fact?
I think his point is that despite these teams having QB's of the age that posters on BBI consider over the hill, they are not frantically searching for/grooming replacements. They are still trying to win around their respective QB's.
Man people go to extremes.
As regards to Ben, people are forgetting how people were telling him after week 8 last year that he needed to consider retirement. Then he won a few games, his guys around him made plays and everything is well.
Do you realize what you are saying? The Giants may be fully behind him - which is also what they have to say - but that does not mean they are not going to draft his successor this season. Additionally, your statement says he will be allowed to finish his contract here if he plays well. He has not played well in at least two seasons. Yes, there are excuses for that. But, simply put, I do not think Gettleman and Shurmur are going to put their legacies with the Giants on the arm of a 37 and 38 year old QB who is schedule to make a ton of money.
Are the Steelers not fully behind Big Ben if they draft a QB in the latter part of the 1st? Same with the Pats and Brady? The Giants will start Eli in 2018 and allow him to play until this team either tanks or it is clear he can no longer hack it. Then they will turn the reins over to - hopefully - the #2 pick in this year's draft.
Objectivity is needed here:
Player A - 21 years old, 5 year contract @ ~$6M/year
Player B - 37 years old, 2 year contract @ $22M/year
There is only one acceptable reason to go with Player B: you can win a Super Bowl with him now or next year but you can not with Player A.
Not drafting a QB at 2 this year isn't a death sentence in finding another QB.
Not drafting a QB at 2 this year isn't a death sentence in finding another QB.
Of course not, but why not get that QB now when we know we are assured of getting one of the top prospects in the entire draft?
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pick in the draft.
Not drafting a QB at 2 this year isn't a death sentence in finding another QB.
Of course not, but why not get that QB now when we know we are assured of getting one of the top prospects in the entire draft?
Because if you look at the recent history of the draft, since Luck, the odds aren't much higher of finding that franchise QB in the top 5 as compared to the rest of the draft. They may even be worse.
The past two guys to get giant paydays deemed worthy of franchise level QB were drafted in the 2nd and 4th round, respectively.
Spread QB's are a risky proposition. It's well documented.
The incorporation of the spread offense into college football has made it more and more difficult to evaluate quarterback prospects. College quarterbacks are putting up video game-like numbers in wide-open offenses that pass the ball much more than ever before.
The spread offense has found its way to the NFL, too, along with the spread quarterbacks. Kansas City Chiefs offensive coordinator Brad Childress was charged with the task of studying the spread offense for Andy Reid when Doug Pederson, who is now the Eagles head coach, was running the Chiefs offense.
Childress was given the title of “spread game analyst” when he first joined the Chiefs staff. He was the subject of a study by The Ringer on the spread offense and how it influences scouting quarterbacks.
The ultimate prospect in Childress’ eyes is a quarterback who ran some spread concepts in college that can be incorporated into an NFL offense.
One way the NFL game is much different from college football is how the offense gets into a huddle and has a play called. In college, many quarterbacks play without a huddle and call plays with hand signals.
While it may seem sexy at the college level, this kind of football can hurt a prospect’s adjustment to the NFL.
“[College spread quarterbacks] never had to say ‘red switch right closed end right split Z halfback flat’ — they don’t know who to talk to when and when to take a breath,” Childress said. “You don’t realize how big a problem the center-quarterback exchange is until the ball is rolling on the ground at practice and you’re saying ‘Oh my God.’”
Carson Wentz is the rare prospect that was able to make adjustments at the line of scrimmage, call actual plays in the huddle and execute some spread concepts. Childress mentioned Wentz as one of the prospects that will benefit from running a scheme in college that blended spread and pro-style concepts.
The Eagles aggressively moved up in the draft to select Wentz at No. 2 overall. Howie Roseman, who was in charge of the Eagles’ draft process, raved about Wentz as a prospect when the trade to acquire the second overall pick was announced.
Roseman said the changes in the college game had warranted a different way of evaluating quarterbacks. He identified the offense that Wentz ran at North Dakota State as “a pro-style concept that hints at where the sport is going.”
Rather than relying on game film, Roseman put more of an emphasis on test scores and football IQ. The analytics outweighed the film.
While many knock Wentz’s college playing days because North Dakota State is an FCS school, his scheme there actually gave him an advantage over others. Wentz pointed out how his time in college will help him make the jump to the NFL.
“You know, it helped me tremendously,” Wentz said at his introductory press conference in April. “I think the transition for me will be a lot smoother than most would think and than [it might be for] most other prospects.
“At North Dakota State, I was in charge of a lot of things at the line of scrimmage, a lot of play-action pass; I was in charge of the audibles, run game checks, you name it. I think that helped me tremendously, set me up for an easier, smoother transition.”
Now well into his first training camp, Wentz has impressed the coaching staff with his preparation and grasp of the offense. Only time will tell when Wentz will be able to put it all together on the field for the Eagles.
USA Today 8/25/16 - ( New Window )
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And not a single mock draft I have seen has the Steelers or Chargers selecting a quarterback - in any round!
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Well while you were perusing those mock draft you may have noticed that none of those teams have the 2nd fucking selection in the draft.
If any of those teams were in the top 5 they'd be taking a hard look at the QBs.
But don't let the facts get in the way.
Look I love Eli Manning. Absolutely love him and always will. But sentimentality can't be part of the thought process here. Even if there weren't concerns (which I feel are valid) about his performance, the smart move in our situation would be to draft the QB and move/release Eli. Now that second part is hard because of the dead money...it would be less difficult if we didn't have so much money tied up poorly elsewhere...but if it's possible the Giants should do it.
If I were running the Pats and had the second pick overall in this draft, I would draft one of these guys and move Brady. And Brady was the MVP last year.
Objectivity is needed here:
Player A - 21 years old, 5 year contract @ ~$6M/year
Player B - 37 years old, 2 year contract @ $22M/year
There is only one acceptable reason to go with Player B: you can win a Super Bowl with him now or next year but you can not with Player A.
Objectivity is needed here:
Player A - 21 years old, 5 year contract @ ~$6M/year
Player B - 37 years old, 2 year contract @ $22M/year
There is only one acceptable reason to go with Player B: you can win a Super Bowl with him now or next year but you can not with Player A.
Spot on. This is such an important aspect that fans are overlooking. I agree with you completely.
Go Terps : 12:07 pm : link : reply
And if they were, I would advise them to draft a replacement QB as well.
Objectivity is needed here:
Player A - 21 years old, 5 year contract @ ~$6M/year
Player B - 37 years old, 2 year contract @ $22M/year
There is only one acceptable reason to go with Player B: you can win a Super Bowl with him now or next year but you can not with Player A.
The difference in the 2 players is 7% of the cap. 15 years ago when the difference was 20% of the cap - it is a valid concern, but the idea that you woin with cheap QB's and then jettison them before they get paid a second contract hardly has any historical examples of working out, and certainly not in the long run.
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Has the decline begun with Brady? Brees? Rivers? Roethlisberger?
Yes it has.
And yet the Saints just gave Brees a two year fifty million dollar contract at 39... and the Patriots traded Garoppolo, who is miles ahead of any of these four quarterback prospects, for a second round pick with Brady about to turn 41. And not a single mock draft I have seen has the Steelers or Chargers selecting a quarterback - in any round!
But these are just facts - don't let them get in the way of your story...
I'll see your mock drafts and raise you actual, reported interest.
Mason Rudolph and Lamar Jackson have each received interest from the Pittsburgh Steelers leading up to the 2018 NFL Draft.
Pittsburgh met with Rudolph during the NFL Combine, while Mike Tomlin, General Manager Kevin Colbert and offensive coordinator Randy Fichtner attended Jackson's Pro Day last week. Colbert has not ruled out selecting a quarterback in this year's draft, as the Steelers want Ben Roethlisberger's successor to be mentored by Big Ben before No.7 hangs up his cleats for good.
"Of course you have to get ready to replace him," Colbert recently told NBC Sports. "We’ve tried to add young quarterbacks into the mix. We’ve done it with Landry Jones, we’ve done it with Josh Dobbs. We’ve tried to do that just to keep some young guys in the system. But at some point, you may draft a quarterback higher. But as long as you have Ben Roethlisberger playing for you, you’re hopefully not in a position where you’re going to get Ben that high. The year we got Ben we were coming off a losing season. And that was very unfortunate — the losing season — but we were very fortunate to get him."
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/zeise-is-right/2018/03/20/steelers-nfl-mock-draft-linebackers-safeties-lamar-jackson-mason-rudolph/stories/201803200092
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/lamar-jackson-pro-day-results-analysis-steelers-2018-nfl-draft/1lrgc5g6uxeud1qdxwd6jur04m
And we're not talking about jettisoning a 26 year old QB. We're talking about a 37 year old that even according to the man that traded for him has 2 years left.
It is the one position that trumps everything else. Sure Barkley could turn out to be better but its not about who is the better player, its about who makes the better the team better. On average a solid QB makes a team better for a longer period of time.
Look at the teams that have a solid to good QB. They are always competing for the playoffs. The great QBs have their teams in the playoffs almost every year. Then there are the 10-15 teams who dont have a QB. They rarely compete for the playoffs. Sometimes things come together and they get it done and then go back to reality of not having a QB.
The Giants are in that lower level pattern right now. Eli is a bottom half QB. He is not raising the level of the players around him anymore and needs a better team to help him. Its time for a new QB. A single RB is not going to make Eli better and then we will be on the search for a new QB. I would rather take my chance this year when the cost is just a 1st round pick. Next year it may cost us 2 1st rounders for a chance or more.
People, this team has scored 30 points 0 times over the past 2 years. Everyone blames mcadoos offense as the problem. Well Manning didn't seem to have a problem with Mcadoos offense in 2014 or 2015! Why....because he wasn't declining yet! He is now! Eli's strength was always to push the ball deep, they scored a lot of points in those years because he could get to Cruz, Burress, Nicks, Manningham, hell even Beckham. His arm strength and accuracy declined, that's why he's missing wide open receivers downfield with regularity. Everyone is quick to blame the offensive line. Ok, they weren't that good, but there was enough times last year where he was given time and missed throws downfield.
His strength was never in the intermediate to short game with pinpoint passing and accuracy, which is what you need to be successful as you age at the qb position. Therefore, we are seeing the results of these two widely accepted ideas intersecting and a noticeable decline.
I've heard a lot people trying to justify Eli's existence in the basis of Brees, Brady, and Ben. Can anyone tell me the last time a Brees led offense didn't score 30 points in a single season, let alone 2. You all love to bring up the fact that a running back resurrected Brees career. But you all left out the fact that in 2016, the 7-9 saints team, was second in the NFL in scoring!! Brees threw 37 td passes. His career wasn't resurrected because of a freakin running back, the offense declined slightly in 2017, it was because the defense stopped giving up 100 points a game.
Eli is on borrowed time now, he doesn't have the ability he once did, and according to some fans what we should all hope for is a 20m plus a year game manager?? He ll be fine if we put an all time great team around him? Should we be happy passing on a future qb because we might go 8-8 the next two seasons?
The differences in the offense from Mac being OC and then being the HC are stark and numerous.
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Well Manning didn't seem to have a problem with Mcadoos offense in 2014 or 2015!
The differences in the offense from Mac being OC and then being the HC are stark and numerous.
You're wasting your time on people unwilling to accept or listen to that.
Actually, his completion % increased on downfield throws the past two years.
But here's the difference - we threw and completed 20+ yard passes in 2015 in the Top 5 of the league. In 016 and 2017 we were last and next to last.
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exercise really need to be repeated on 2015 being TC's offense?
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Well Manning didn't seem to have a problem with Mcadoos offense in 2014 or 2015!
The differences in the offense from Mac being OC and then being the HC are stark and numerous.
You're wasting your time on people unwilling to accept or listen to that.
It's illogical to believe Manning had years of productive football left. I get, it's hard to let go, I love Eli as well.
I also love have people take one snippet for a well reaosned position and completely disregard the rest. You are also all the same people pounding the Brees can still do it, so can Eli, table.
You are all going to get what you ask for, two to three more years of almost...woulda...coulda...if only we had that one play back...7-9 8-8 teams where Eli throws 22 tds and 15 ints and leads a league average offense.
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His arm strength and accuracy declined, that's why he's missing wide open receivers downfield with regularity.
Actually, his completion % increased on downfield throws the past two years.
But here's the difference - we threw and completed 20+ yard passes in 2015 in the Top 5 of the league. In 016 and 2017 we were last and next to last.
Ummmm what??? Doesn't Eli play a part in the last and next to last percentage in 2016 and 2017. I just can't.
You don't think that's indicative of the system instead of the QB, especially since Eli completed a higher % of those throws??
I'll say it again - we were among the league leaders is 20+ passes in 2015 and then we instead went to a short passing offense.
No, you are all right, Eli- at 37 years old- after leading one of the worst offenses in the league will turn back into 2011 Eli and we ll win the sb.
You want evidence, go turn on a game from 2016/2017.
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But the decline has begun and at this point I don't see him elevating much around him. We know where the previous administration stood on this. This current group is saying all the right things but actions speak. They may not deem the available QBs worthy when they are on the clock, but they are certainly doing their homework on possible replacements. I previously assumed it were QB at 2 or not at all --now I'm not so sure.
Has the decline begun with Brady? Brees? Rivers? Roethlisberger? Come on guys - this is about Eli being an unthrilling and immobile quarterback who just happens to be statistically one of the top quarterbacks of all time and a two time super bowl winner and MVP.
Love him or hate him, this is still the same Eli we have always known. Give him weapons and an offensive line and he is a pro bowler in 2018. He has at least two years left and likely several more after that...
In terms of him being the same Eli, I do not believe so. I do not believe he handles pressure in the pocket as well as he did a few years back. He also doesn't hit on his deep ball like he once did. IMO, it is not all due to more pressure. Even when he has time, he hits with the deep ball less frequency than he used to.
Eli has been an iron man for a long time. These things can take their toll.
It is impossible to remove the QB and his performance from the environment around him. None of us can say with certainty how much of it is due to Eli himself verses lack of things around him. But to the best of my estimation of such things, I am not seeing the player he once was. It doesn't mean there aren't glimpses and it doesn't mean he's done. He is still a starting caliber QB capable of playing winning football provided enough help around him, but he is not more than an average starter at this point, to my eyes, and sometimes once the decline sets in, it can accelerate rapidly. That is a reality this team needs to prepare for, whether they select a QB @2 or not.