Not right away but in a year or two he is. And instead of spending $30m to get Cousins or Stafford and his obscene contract you get a cheap productive QB and you aren't wasting $30m of cap space nor wasting MANY valuable draft picks to trade up.
The is why BPA is useless in this scenario and similar ones because you don't just compare one player vs another. You also have to take into account what you can pick up by having a cheap QB vs for example a cheap RB. In the long run drafting the QB will allow the team to get more players. Bell is superior to COusins and Stafford but who gets the bigger contract? And why does he get it? SO how does this make the Giants immune after Eli goes?
And for those of you that think Eli is fine. I want what you're smoking. He's in decline. He's not awful but he's not good any more if he doesn't have a good offensive line. And for anyone who thinks the OLine is good- again I'd like to get a hold of what you're smoking.
And people have to realize, if you don't have a good QB-- OBJ and Barkley won't be near as effective. Especially until the OLine is built. But even then, a sub-par QB passing the ball / committing turnovers and over-throwing open players and fumbling and making bad reads is not winning football regardless of OBJ and Barkley presence.
The move in the draft here is hopefully draft the QB. I favor pocket QB's so I like Rosen and Mayfield. I agree with Greg Cosell. He likes these two more than the others too because he favors pocket QB's. I get it if the Giants don't really like the QB and they go away from it. But then I don't want to hear shit if they dont go QB and underperform over the next several years while a QB we passed on does very well. It meant they were inexcusably wrong. The GM would have to go in this case. What you have to pay / trade for a QB MUST BE CONSIDERED. Positional value MUST BE CONSIDERED.
No-- it doesn't But anyways I think 1 year. Because I dont think much of ELi nay more. A great HOF QB past his prime. The Giants will see next year -- our man is done without an OLine.
Right. Which si why I say if Giants don't take a QB and they end up suffering while a QB they passed one does very well- I just don't want to hear how the narrative was "it was unknown the degree of ELi's effectiveness." WIthout an Oline ELi is done.
I say this in fun- don't take it personal-- "if I know you're wrong and especially without an effective Oline, don't you dare say a few years from now that we can't blame DG for his blunderous mistake."
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There are many people in the NFL who think eli has plenty left. I agree with that sentiment also. You don't agree. That's why the fan base is divided. Well see who's right
Right. Which si why I say if Giants don't take a QB and they end up suffering while a QB they passed one does very well- I just don't want to hear how the narrative was "it was unknown the degree of ELi's effectiveness." WIthout an Oline ELi is done.
I say this in fun- don't take it personal-- "if I know you're wrong and especially without an effective Oline, don't you dare say a few years from now that we can't blame DG for his blunderous mistake."
don't worry.. the giants are drafting a qb
I have a feeling you and I are going to be battling on this straight through draft time. If Gettleman is worth his weight as GM, he'll pick a QB. There may be some GMs that think Eli has something left, and there are plenty that don't. Either way, you simply have to guard yourself against the fact that he may be done, and almost certainly will be in the next year or two. Does no one remember that when he was 30 he said he planned to play 7 more years?
I think what the OP was saying that it makes a lot of sense, and drafting a QB is what Gettleman will do.
It's OK to disagree but the OPs position is perfectly reasonable.
In fact can you name any teams that made the playoffs this year who didn't have a solid OL...?
it is Gettleman plan to fix the OL.
the question is does Eli have anything left with an OL?
That's a great way to put it.
They just made Solder the highest paid LT.
So you sit the QB one year or even play him at some point this year.
This isn't hard.
Only if you're absolutely sold out to maximizing the amount of time you have that young franchise QB under a rookie deal.
But that's putting the cart before the horse. The most important thing is acquiring and developing that young franchise QB. We're in position to do that.
Was 2011 a throwaway year when the Giants drafted Amukamara? He played in seven games, started none. They already had Webster and Ross (plus Thomas, until he got hurt in preseason). Prince hardly made an impact. How did that season turn out?
Here's the fundamental flaw in your reasoning, IMO: you keep talking about the Giants helping Eli win. When did it stop being the other way around?
What's certain is they're not going to waste two controlled QB years when they can save $16 million on the cap next year by releasing Eli.
Signing a QB at 2 means that this will almost certainly be Eli's final year with the team.
Just a lots of ifs and buts. I just hope he gets it right no matter who he picks.
Just a lots of ifs and buts. I just hope he gets it right no matter who he picks.
What if he picks the worng QB and the Jets pick the right one? I think that is worse.
Don't pick a QB if you don't 100% know he is the right one for the team..
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But I see Gettleman being in a no win situation if he doesn't draft a QB. At least one of them is going to be a great QB and if he picks Barkley and the best QB goes to the Jets!
Just a lots of ifs and buts. I just hope he gets it right no matter who he picks.
What if he picks the worng QB and the Jets pick the right one? I think that is worse.
Don't pick a QB if you don't 100% know he is the right one for the team..
Impossible
The safe choice for Gettleman and the Giants is Barkley. If you have willing trade partners who offer a haul of value that exceeds Barkley, you trade the pick. But I am now thinking that any trade offers will be modest and unsatisfying. I doubt that the "kings ransom" fantasy will ever materialize. Why? Would you give up a kings ransom for quarterbacks graded well below Gabbert and Sanchez? If it happens great. But I am not counting on it.
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But I see Gettleman being in a no win situation if he doesn't draft a QB. At least one of them is going to be a great QB and if he picks Barkley and the best QB goes to the Jets!
Just a lots of ifs and buts. I just hope he gets it right no matter who he picks.
What if he picks the worng QB and the Jets pick the right one? I think that is worse.
Don't pick a QB if you don't 100% know he is the right one for the team..
Then you're never going to be drafting a QB
Fair enough. But in selecting yet another qb in the middle rounds, isn't the organization admitting the need for a qb, without actually making an investment in one. To me, if your not picking one at #2 this year, don't bother picking one at all, because a they are telling the fan base is that you know you need a qb but don't care enough to truly pursue an elite one.
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He reminds me of Barry Sanders. We can pick a QB with our 2nd round pick Lauletta perhaps.
Fair enough. But in selecting yet another qb in the middle rounds, isn't the organization admitting the need for a qb, without actually making an investment in one. To me, if your not picking one at #2 this year, don't bother picking one at all, because a they are telling the fan base is that you know you need a qb but don't care enough to truly pursue an elite one.
This. We have a mid round developmental QB, its akin to drafting lineman in the mid rounds every year and everyone flipping their minds when the line is still bad.
Who is "Webb?" How many games has he helped the Giants win? Ohh that's right, you're talking about the guy that couldn't beat out Geno SMith, right? Now all of a sudden he'll turn into a Super Bowl QB?
Maybe he will. But no one knows that. DG better be right if he believes in him.
Other than the fact that he's a complete unknown...?
Nothing, I guess.
You're making up the immune thing. No one said that. Further, IMO you'd be wrong for criticizing DG IF he picked the right QB and the team was winning a lot in year 2 or 3.
Secondly, if Webb doesn't work out and he doesn't draft a QB - it could be a helluva lot longer than 5 years as each year you give Eli and Webb a chance they don't produce but you hope/expect they will. And each year Barkley (I only say Barkley because that's most of the consensus) and OBJ get older and at some point less effective. The point is-- if Webb doesn't work out and teh team is unsuccessful-- his philosophy is WRONG and it will be proved to be a fireable offense in many of our opinions if he doesn't draft a QB. Just like Reese had drafting philosophies that were wrong - so will DG. Unless ofc he makes a super trade or gets luck in some year drafting a later round QB that rises in performance that leads to a successful team.
Anyways my point is clear here whne I say the following:
"I get it if the Giants don't really like the QB and they go away from it. But then I don't want to hear shit if they dont go QB and underperform over the next several years while a QB we passed on does very well. It meant they were inexcusably wrong. The GM would have to go in this case."
And this stuff about "IF YOU DRAFT THE WRONG QB" is imo a fiereabel offense if I'm the owner. I'd say "I am paying you a lot of money to NOT pick the wrong player. SO what you do had better work." Adn as fan we should expect that. I don't want a chicken shit GM. DO you? All I'm saying is you draft Barkley-- fine. But if you lose due ot poor QB play in the future years while a QB you passed on shines, he deserves to go, doesn't he? And yes I agree with you-- the other way around if he is wrong and team doesn't win while Barkley shines - yes he deserves to go. You cant eb at the bottom of the conference over the next 4 years or just get into the playoffs and lose in rd 1 on occasion and think that is okay.
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In comment 13922330 Jeever said:
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He reminds me of Barry Sanders. We can pick a QB with our 2nd round pick Lauletta perhaps.
Fair enough. But in selecting yet another qb in the middle rounds, isn't the organization admitting the need for a qb, without actually making an investment in one. To me, if your not picking one at #2 this year, don't bother picking one at all, because a they are telling the fan base is that you know you need a qb but don't care enough to truly pursue an elite one.
This. We have a mid round developmental QB, its akin to drafting lineman in the mid rounds every year and everyone flipping their minds when the line is still bad.
Agree. Even drafting Davis Webb with a third round pick, not exactly a throw away pick, was an acknowledgement that the Giants needed to find Eli's eventual replacement. If there was no need to find Eli's eventual replacement in the near future, why didn't they draft a guard to maybe try to give Eli some more protection last year? If it's all win now for Eli, Webb was a wasted pick too.
My take is, playing the percentages, take a QB near the top of the first round or not at all until the later rounds, unless a really talented QB unexpected drops in the first round, like Aaron Rodgers, Dan Marino, maybe Brett Favre. The chance of getting a long-term starting QB in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th round is about as good as getting one in the 5th or 6th round or an undrafted FA. With very, very few exceptions -- Joe Montana, Russell Wilson, Brett Favre, maybe Jimmy Garoppolo and Derek Carr (jury's still out) -- when you draft a QB in the third to fifth round you're getting either a developmental QB with physical tools who almost never really pans out or, at best, a reasonable backup. I'd rather use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a position player who has a better chance to contribute as a starter or at least a rotational player. QB, kicker and punter are the only positions where there is only one starter, so you hope a backup never plays. Center too, I guess. Other positions have two starters or more, plus the ability to contribute on special teams.
Non-first round draft pick QBs by Giants since 1979: Davis Webb, Ryan Nassib, Rhett Bomar, Andre Woodson, Jesse Palmer, Mike Cherry, Danny Kanell, Kent Graham, Larry Wenke, Craig Kupp, Mike Perez, Dave Walter, Jeff Hostetler, Scott Brunner. Only one who turned into anything pretty decent was Jeff Hostetler, and really it was just his one magical run to the Super Bowl after Simms went down. He was gone after that and was pretty decent for the Raiders for a couple years.
First round draft pick QBs by Giants since 1979: Phil Simms, Dave Brown (supplemental pick), Eli Manning (via trade for Phillip Rivers.
Compare those percentages likelihood of success: 66% for first rounders vs. less than 10% for non-first rounders. And Dave Brown was a supplemental first round pick, so it's kind of hard to know how he would have fared in a regular draft.
I'm not advocating drafting a QB who you don't feel confident about as a potential franchise QB, I just think that there are at least 2 in this draft -- Rosen and Darnold, Rosen being my favorite. I wouldn't be devastated with Allen if the scouts and coaches are really on board with him.
I have to say, watching John Dorsey's press conference, I came away super impressed by him and think he will turn Cleveland around.
You don't swing at #2 in HOPES of hitting a franchise QB, you take a QB at #2 if you have conviction that he's a franchise QB, and if its the latter they will take him, if its the former, they wont. its not that hard, it will have nothing to do with Manning or Webb.
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?
Other than the fact that he's a complete unknown...?
Nothing, I guess.
You don't swing at #2 in HOPES of hitting a franchise QB, you take a QB at #2 if you have conviction that he's a franchise QB, and if its the latter they will take him, if its the former, they wont. its not that hard, it will have nothing to do with Manning or Webb.
But what if you don't believe in Webb?
You don't swing at #2 in HOPES of hitting a franchise QB, you take a QB at #2 if you have conviction that he's a franchise QB, and if its the latter they will take him, if its the former, they wont. its not that hard, it will have nothing to do with Manning or Webb.
I should have added what if you don't believe that ELi has much left without an Offensive line and you also don't believe in Webb?
Then it comes down to BPA vs THe QB effectiveness/ positional value, correct? That's where a bit of the discussion lies. It comes down to philosophy and belief.
And do you think the Giants can be a super bowl contender this year?