The only thing I disagree with is eli won't be benched and the kid will sit the year. If Eli plays well he finishes his contract. I agree a kid shouldn't sit but that is the plan and why I don't want qb
If the Giants get off to a rough start, and given the tough first half schedule this would be quite plausible especially if we don't use our prime draft asset to help the 2018 team, the pressure to see Darnold would grow geometrically... I think you are right that the plan would be to play Eli, but as we saw last year, once the playoffs become unrealistic, I think it is likely we would see the kid...
If you want me to rate this on a 1-10 scale in terms of league comparison by position:
2017
Left Tackle = 5
Left Guard = 6
Center = 5
Right Guard = 5
Right Tackle = 2
2018
Left Tackle = 9 (Solder, not the best but very good)
Left Guard = 6 (2nd round rookie or Omameh)...this could be a 7 easily
Center = 5 (Jones again, maybe a rookie steps in)
Right Guard = 5 (Jerry again, average at best)
Right Tackle = 5 (Flowers or Wheeler, anything is better than what they had in 2017)
Hi sy. Yes I am not arguing about "improvement" I'm arguing that they won't be good. Heck I say this in fun with no malice-- it was you who got me down on Omameh when you replied to me in the past.
ANd if the OLine was so rotten then how can guys like Jones and Jerry be considered "average" when you had told me Omammeh just isn't very good without lots of help. You had said he is not very good.
Thus I think it way too optimistic to think this OL will be good. Sure it might be improved. But Omammeh, Jones, Jerry and the RT imo are not considered average in this grouping. ANd just getting one draft pick in Rd 2 won't make it a good OL either.
If your view on Omammeh needed surrounding good OL around him is correct, then that only makes Eli still sub-par. Two years ago even when he had teem he was average at best, wasn't he? ANd now he is 2 years older.
What is this, the #175th thread on this exact topic?
For Fuchs sake.
Right, because no new threads is much better than a few repetitive ones? You self proclaimed thread police are proving to be the slow motion death of this site.
You read the thread title. If you were not interested, don't click on it. WE ARE LESS THAN A WEEK FROM THE DRAFT.... This site should be full of draft threads right now. Not everyone spends all winter following the minutia of this stuff. Many people are just tuning in now, and frankly, they are probably no worse off for the decision. Why bother with the daily nonsense when they can get the full rundown around this time when info and intentions seem to come into actual focus?
If this thread is not sufficiently crafted prose for your literary taste, perhaps you can start your own thread and put us all in awe of how a real pro does it??? Link - ( New Window )
Sorry, no clue where that link came from....
Actually not sure I remember ever reading that article.
I guess my phone auto filled out the form with that link for some reason.... Good thing it wasn't something more...unique for my sake! LOL
why Rosen isn't discussed more here. I think he is the guy if NYG goes QB.
There is too much to not like when it comes to Darnold
I agree with you Sy. I understand the concussions are a cause for concern, but he appears to be the best QB, the only "NFL ready" QB in the draft (well maybe Mayfield, too).
Good list. But don't put me in the category of a poster that Â
wants to force it because that is pure horse-sh_t, and a cop on the argument of picking a QB. In my amateur view, there is enough of talent at the position to make the selection a QB this year.
If the Giants think differently, fine...but then get the hell out of that #2 pick. Because surely it is worth more to several teams and the Giants can improve their roster in a different way with multiple picks.
And then address QB in some other year.
I just prescribe to the theory that RB value is throughout the draft, and moreso than any other position...
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Not like you can with the RB position. There’s quality starters and pro bowl caliber players drafted late at the RB position every year. This year will be no different. No one would be surprised if Guice, Michel, Chubb, Jones, Johnson, and Penny have more productive years than Barkley.
That's out of how many guys though that were taken outside of the top 10 since Brady was drafted? I don't think anyone's arguing that it's not impossible, it's just statistically far more likely to find your franchise QB atop a draft where many consider there to be 4 of them.
I do agree with your second point. I don't think they *have* to take a quarterback but if they think there's one there with the potential to be a franchise qb then they have to do it, even if they're not certain. The upside is worth the risk far more than any other position in sports.
What's your assessment of Eli at this point and what's left in the tank? I'm genuinely curious as we all have opinions but don't necessarily know what we're looking at like you do.
But I’m tired of all the QB people saying you gotta draft your QB for the next 10-15 years, how hell do we know the QB will make it that long??? Keep hearing this over and over and it’s crazy
With that attitude then how do you know that Barkley won't get one shot in the knee and be basically a shell of what he is projected to be?
I don’t disagree, but it goes both ways. Rosen, for example, hasn’t shown the ability in college to stay healthy.
And as you say it goes both ways. SO are you going to trust the longevity of a Qb or a featured RB that gets hits hit 25-40+ times a game? I'll take the guy with 2 concussions in college. Just give him a good OL.
Darnold yes, Rosen a big no!! It’s not just the concussions....
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Doesn't make any sense to pick a back up qb with the 2nd pick. Davis Webb is next in line and will be great for the Giants organization for the next 15+ years.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Pro Eli-Crowd...is that right?
Our offense was figured out in early 2016 and BM didn't do a damn thing about it. It's well documented.
RE: RE: RE: Not selecting a QB is ignoring the QB Â
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Pro Eli-Crowd...is that right?
There are plenty of arguments to refute this, but the bottom line is the new GM and HC don’t think Eli has declined. That’s really all that matters at this point.
Doesn't make any sense to pick a back up qb with the 2nd pick. Davis Webb is next in line and will be great for the Giants organization for the next 15+ years.
We are not expecting elite play from Eli without a superior cast around him.
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
We are not expecting elite play from Eli without a superior cast around him.
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
This is pretty much what I’ve said since the college season. It’s really an either/or situation — either you take the QB and strap in for a rebuild or you trade down and infuse the core areas of the roster w talent.
Unless your Kid does not beat out some 3rd round pick named Webb . Â
Seriously No one will be shocked if they take a QB , either
Schumer thinks he can develop Webb or does not .
Who knows if the Browns will not take Darnold ?
The highest ranked player in the draft is Barkley I think
they will take him or a trade down that will have to be a deal they can't pass on . I don't see the GM making any
double moves moving down then up or down twice .
They will stay in the top 5 IMO
Again will be fine with a QB but hoping for Barkley !
We are not expecting elite play from Eli without a superior cast around him.
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
This is pretty much what I’ve said since the college season. It’s really an either/or situation — either you take the QB and strap in for a rebuild or you trade down and infuse the core areas of the roster w talent.
Well, hope to infuse the team, at best. Getting a huge haul of picks from the Skins didn't exactly net the Rams a number of elite players.
it's a fallacy that what we do with the #2 pick determines Â
whether we've given Eli help. No matter who we draft at #2, the player is a rookie. It's very possible that one or more of our other picks has a bigger impact in 2018.
Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
unlike you I subscribe to the idea that the Giants must take a QB in this draft. My choice would be Rosen.
In fact I think taking a RB at #2 is malpractice and would be a tragic waste of draft equity for the Giants. This is a deep RB class, talent can be had in rounds 2-3-4... And while Barkley is a talented player I am not even certain his game translates so well to the next level - as a homerun hitter who bounces a lot of runs to the outside.
Meanwhile this is a strong QB class and we sit in great position to get arguably the best pure passer and most intelligent football mind available. If you hit on the next Rodgers or Brady it transforms the organization for a generation. It is a risk well worth taking here. I don't buy the idea that we should be afraid to miss on the qb pick that some make here. We are already in the position of banking on a qb that no longer has elite skills. eli is now a bottom half of the league qb.
I just don't understand the thinking that drives some of the folks on this site. The Patriots, the best org in the NFL, is thinking QB and they have Brady and just went to their second straight SB, but somehow the Giants shouldnt think about their QB succession because maybe we can add a RB to help Manning find glory he hasnt had in seven years. I dont think this is how great franchises sustain excellence.
Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
unlike you I subscribe to the idea that the Giants must take a QB in this draft. My choice would be Rosen.
In fact I think taking a RB at #2 is malpractice and would be a tragic waste of draft equity for the Giants. This is a deep RB class, talent can be had in rounds 2-3-4... And while Barkley is a talented player I am not even certain his game translates so well to the next level - as a homerun hitter who bounces a lot of runs to the outside.
Meanwhile this is a strong QB class and we sit in great position to get arguably the best pure passer and most intelligent football mind available. If you hit on the next Rodgers or Brady it transforms the organization for a generation. It is a risk well worth taking here. I don't buy the idea that we should be afraid to miss on the qb pick that some make here. We are already in the position of banking on a qb that no longer has elite skills. eli is now a bottom half of the league qb.
I just don't understand the thinking that drives some of the folks on this site. The Patriots, the best org in the NFL, is thinking QB and they have Brady and just went to their second straight SB, but somehow the Giants shouldnt think about their QB succession because maybe we can add a RB to help Manning find glory he hasnt had in seven years. I dont think this is how great franchises sustain excellence.
I am eager to see Sy's ratings tomorrow because as best as I can tell, there is nothing that I have seen that characterizes this as a strong quarterback class in terms of "Andrew Luck/Matt Ryan" transcendent quality. There may be many first round projected quarterbacks rated at the Mark Sanchez/Blaine Gabbert levels, but even then, there is absolutely no consensus whatsoever on any of the four. I thought Kiper and McShay were going to get into a fistfight on Friday defending their very different points of view!
In all likelihood, one won't be available to them anyway. If Barkley is the one who's there, you take him. If Darnold is there, tougher decision. If they take him, they will get very little help this year from the draft since Darnold would sit and they only have 5 more picks.
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
It's common sense folks: your franchise QB is 37 years old and will turn 38 in early January. He also has only 2 years left on his deal. It's time. You let the kid watch and learn for a year and then you cut bait with your 39 year old starter via either trade or a flat out release at the end of the 2018 season.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Common sense? Do you have $62 Million to spend on a 32 year-old OLT?
Well, that’s the age Solder will be when Darnold would most likely take the reins.
Do you think that Mara & Tisch signed Solder to man the OLT position @ $62 Mil for Eli’s waning years? Common sense?
The ownership whether we like it or not believes Eli has at least 2 years, if not more left to bring the Giants to the promised land. Mara/Tisch/Gettleman/Shurmur & Mssrs. are “ALL IN” for 2018 and beyond.
That means giving Eli all the help you can give him. It means fortifying the offensive line to try to augment the time Eli will have to scan the field while sitting in the pocket; it means giving Eli a running game; not only to complement the passing game, but to embellish it. The running game will be an important part 0f the team this year to take considerable pressure off Eli, and to augment ball control (in an attempt to give the defense a respite late in the game).
Accordingly, what this means in regards to the draft is that the Giants are likely going RB, then OG in Rd. 2 unless they trade down (due to John Dorsey selecting Barkley with #1).
Remember what George Young said (and it fits in the drafting context as well): “IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY”!
What convinces many of you that any of the”Core Four “ QBs are “Franchise-worthy”?
Several pro scouts have indicted Darnold to be at the top of this class of QBs. However, they have also cited that Darnold would have been 4th had he been drafted (after his best college season) in 2017 - after Trubisky, Watson & Mahomes. I don’t know if this is considered “Franchise”.
What do you think, Sy?
that can not be argued. But there are multiple variables that go into this:
1. Of the Qbs that remain at 2, do the Giants have a franchise grade on any?
2. How firm are their convictions on Webb being the heir apparent?
3. With this draft potentially being extremely even historically deep at the QB position, how high a grade do they have on others that can be had after #2? (Like Lauletta)
4. Do they behind closed doors truly feel Eli has a mimumum of 2-3 years left? (as theyve been saying publicly)
5. How close do they feel they are to being competitive again? (It sounds like they want to take advantage of Eli's remaining window of championship level football as Ernie Accorsi put it)
What convinces many of you that any of the”Core Four “ QBs are “Franchise-worthy”?
Several pro scouts have indicted Darnold to be at the top of this class of QBs. However, they have also cited that Darnold would have been 4th had he been drafted (after his best college season) in 2017 - after Trubisky, Watson & Mahomes. I don’t know if this is considered “Franchise”.
What do you think, Sy?
a lot of analysts, Greg Cosell included, believe this is a solid group of qb prospects and think they compare favorably to other classes. Cosell for instance favors Rosen and Mayfield over Darnold and Allen and thinks Wentz was better coming out of college but these top 2 at least are just a notch below that.
In all likelihood, one won't be available to them anyway. If Barkley is the one who's there, you take him. If Darnold is there, tougher decision. If they take him, they will get very little help this year from the draft since Darnold would sit and they only have 5 more picks.
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
the Browns are not taking Barkley. Nobody in the top 5 other than the Giants is even thinking about Barkley. To me you dint take Barkley at 2, not when we have a dire need at QB.
In all likelihood, one won't be available to them anyway. If Barkley is the one who's there, you take him. If Darnold is there, tougher decision. If they take him, they will get very little help this year from the draft since Darnold would sit and they only have 5 more picks.
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
the Browns are not taking Barkley. Nobody in the top 5 other than the Giants is even thinking about Barkley. To me you dint take Barkley at 2, not when we have a dire need at QB.
QBs are the most important asset that can not be argued. But there are multiple variables that go into this (in rough order of importance):
1. Of the Qbs that remain at 2, do the Giants have a franchise grade on any?
2. How firm are their convictions on Webb being the heir apparent?
3. With this draft potentially being extremely even historically deep at the QB position, how high a grade do they have on others that can be had after #2? (Like Lauletta)
4. Do they behind closed doors truly feel Eli has a mimumum of 2-3 years left? (as theyve been saying publicly)
5. How close do they feel they are to being competitive again? (It sounds like they want to take advantage of Eli's remaining window of championship level football as Ernie Accorsi put it)
Doesn't make any sense to pick a back up qb with the 2nd pick. Davis Webb is next in line and will be great for the Giants organization for the next 15+ years.
is simply not based on reality. There is no choice between QB and RB for the Giants. The reason, the Browns pick first. Hence, if they take one, your choice is effectively made. Rosen might be good, but he carries the bong of an injury history. So Darnold or Barkley, Cleveland will make the choice for the Giants. That is just the nature of the draft in many cases, the later choices are limited by the choices made earlier by other teams.
If the Giants get off to a rough start, and given the tough first half schedule this would be quite plausible especially if we don't use our prime draft asset to help the 2018 team, the pressure to see Darnold would grow geometrically... I think you are right that the plan would be to play Eli, but as we saw last year, once the playoffs become unrealistic, I think it is likely we would see the kid...
2017
Left Tackle = 5
Left Guard = 6
Center = 5
Right Guard = 5
Right Tackle = 2
2018
Left Tackle = 9 (Solder, not the best but very good)
Left Guard = 6 (2nd round rookie or Omameh)...this could be a 7 easily
Center = 5 (Jones again, maybe a rookie steps in)
Right Guard = 5 (Jerry again, average at best)
Right Tackle = 5 (Flowers or Wheeler, anything is better than what they had in 2017)
Hi sy. Yes I am not arguing about "improvement" I'm arguing that they won't be good. Heck I say this in fun with no malice-- it was you who got me down on Omameh when you replied to me in the past.
ANd if the OLine was so rotten then how can guys like Jones and Jerry be considered "average" when you had told me Omammeh just isn't very good without lots of help. You had said he is not very good.
Thus I think it way too optimistic to think this OL will be good. Sure it might be improved. But Omammeh, Jones, Jerry and the RT imo are not considered average in this grouping. ANd just getting one draft pick in Rd 2 won't make it a good OL either.
If your view on Omammeh needed surrounding good OL around him is correct, then that only makes Eli still sub-par. Two years ago even when he had teem he was average at best, wasn't he? ANd now he is 2 years older.
Quote:
This mindless banter.
What is this, the #175th thread on this exact topic?
For Fuchs sake.
Right, because no new threads is much better than a few repetitive ones? You self proclaimed thread police are proving to be the slow motion death of this site.
You read the thread title. If you were not interested, don't click on it. WE ARE LESS THAN A WEEK FROM THE DRAFT.... This site should be full of draft threads right now. Not everyone spends all winter following the minutia of this stuff. Many people are just tuning in now, and frankly, they are probably no worse off for the decision. Why bother with the daily nonsense when they can get the full rundown around this time when info and intentions seem to come into actual focus?
If this thread is not sufficiently crafted prose for your literary taste, perhaps you can start your own thread and put us all in awe of how a real pro does it??? Link - ( New Window )
Sorry, no clue where that link came from....
Actually not sure I remember ever reading that article.
I guess my phone auto filled out the form with that link for some reason.... Good thing it wasn't something more...unique for my sake! LOL
There is too much to not like when it comes to Darnold
I agree with you Sy. I understand the concussions are a cause for concern, but he appears to be the best QB, the only "NFL ready" QB in the draft (well maybe Mayfield, too).
If the Giants think differently, fine...but then get the hell out of that #2 pick. Because surely it is worth more to several teams and the Giants can improve their roster in a different way with multiple picks.
And then address QB in some other year.
I just prescribe to the theory that RB value is throughout the draft, and moreso than any other position...
Quote:
In comment 13924100 jtgiants said:
Quote:
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Not like you can with the RB position. There’s quality starters and pro bowl caliber players drafted late at the RB position every year. This year will be no different. No one would be surprised if Guice, Michel, Chubb, Jones, Johnson, and Penny have more productive years than Barkley.
I do agree with your second point. I don't think they *have* to take a quarterback but if they think there's one there with the potential to be a franchise qb then they have to do it, even if they're not certain. The upside is worth the risk far more than any other position in sports.
What's your assessment of Eli at this point and what's left in the tank? I'm genuinely curious as we all have opinions but don't necessarily know what we're looking at like you do.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Quote:
In comment 13924178 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 13924164 OBJRoyal said:
Quote:
But I’m tired of all the QB people saying you gotta draft your QB for the next 10-15 years, how hell do we know the QB will make it that long??? Keep hearing this over and over and it’s crazy
With that attitude then how do you know that Barkley won't get one shot in the knee and be basically a shell of what he is projected to be?
I don’t disagree, but it goes both ways. Rosen, for example, hasn’t shown the ability in college to stay healthy.
And as you say it goes both ways. SO are you going to trust the longevity of a Qb or a featured RB that gets hits hit 25-40+ times a game? I'll take the guy with 2 concussions in college. Just give him a good OL.
Darnold yes, Rosen a big no!! It’s not just the concussions....
Yeah, fumblitis....
Darnold yes, Rosen a big no!! It’s not just the concussions....
Ok, what is it besides concussions/medical? He is clearly the best QB coming out. So his floor is already well above the others.
Quote:
Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Pro Eli-Crowd...is that right?
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Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Pro Eli-Crowd...is that right?
Our offense was figured out in early 2016 and BM didn't do a damn thing about it. It's well documented.
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Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Pro Eli-Crowd...is that right?
There are plenty of arguments to refute this, but the bottom line is the new GM and HC don’t think Eli has declined. That’s really all that matters at this point.
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In comment 13924241 Sean said:
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
Sy flip-flopping again?
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In comment 13924241 Sean said:
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
Nice Sy. Again, appreciate your adds to the site.
And for those who need a sneak preview...his top ranked QB is going to be Rosen.
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In comment 13924257 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 13924241 Sean said:
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
Nice Sy. Again, appreciate your adds to the site.
And for those who need a sneak preview...his top ranked QB is going to be Rosen.
The play is Rosen or trade down in my opinion.
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
But if Cleveland truly is in love with Barkley and willing to trade away both of their 2nds....and maybe squeeze a pick in 2019....to move to 4.....
Cleveland drafting Allen and Barkley
Jets seem to be targeting Rosen or Mayfield.
Still leaves Darnold and whoever the Jets do not take available...plus Chubb......
A couple of thoughts:
I would feel much better drafting a QB....with extra draft picks.
3 top of 2nd pick would be sweet......willing to forgo Barkley
#4 pick would still be a hot commodity for a trade down. More than enough ammo to trade back down for Nelson
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
This is pretty much what I’ve said since the college season. It’s really an either/or situation — either you take the QB and strap in for a rebuild or you trade down and infuse the core areas of the roster w talent.
Schumer thinks he can develop Webb or does not .
Who knows if the Browns will not take Darnold ?
The highest ranked player in the draft is Barkley I think
they will take him or a trade down that will have to be a deal they can't pass on . I don't see the GM making any
double moves moving down then up or down twice .
They will stay in the top 5 IMO
Again will be fine with a QB but hoping for Barkley !
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We are not expecting elite play from Eli without a superior cast around him.
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
This is pretty much what I’ve said since the college season. It’s really an either/or situation — either you take the QB and strap in for a rebuild or you trade down and infuse the core areas of the roster w talent.
Well, hope to infuse the team, at best. Getting a huge haul of picks from the Skins didn't exactly net the Rams a number of elite players.
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In comment 13924241 Sean said:
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
unlike you I subscribe to the idea that the Giants must take a QB in this draft. My choice would be Rosen.
In fact I think taking a RB at #2 is malpractice and would be a tragic waste of draft equity for the Giants. This is a deep RB class, talent can be had in rounds 2-3-4... And while Barkley is a talented player I am not even certain his game translates so well to the next level - as a homerun hitter who bounces a lot of runs to the outside.
Meanwhile this is a strong QB class and we sit in great position to get arguably the best pure passer and most intelligent football mind available. If you hit on the next Rodgers or Brady it transforms the organization for a generation. It is a risk well worth taking here. I don't buy the idea that we should be afraid to miss on the qb pick that some make here. We are already in the position of banking on a qb that no longer has elite skills. eli is now a bottom half of the league qb.
I just don't understand the thinking that drives some of the folks on this site. The Patriots, the best org in the NFL, is thinking QB and they have Brady and just went to their second straight SB, but somehow the Giants shouldnt think about their QB succession because maybe we can add a RB to help Manning find glory he hasnt had in seven years. I dont think this is how great franchises sustain excellence.
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In comment 13924257 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 13924241 Sean said:
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
unlike you I subscribe to the idea that the Giants must take a QB in this draft. My choice would be Rosen.
In fact I think taking a RB at #2 is malpractice and would be a tragic waste of draft equity for the Giants. This is a deep RB class, talent can be had in rounds 2-3-4... And while Barkley is a talented player I am not even certain his game translates so well to the next level - as a homerun hitter who bounces a lot of runs to the outside.
Meanwhile this is a strong QB class and we sit in great position to get arguably the best pure passer and most intelligent football mind available. If you hit on the next Rodgers or Brady it transforms the organization for a generation. It is a risk well worth taking here. I don't buy the idea that we should be afraid to miss on the qb pick that some make here. We are already in the position of banking on a qb that no longer has elite skills. eli is now a bottom half of the league qb.
I just don't understand the thinking that drives some of the folks on this site. The Patriots, the best org in the NFL, is thinking QB and they have Brady and just went to their second straight SB, but somehow the Giants shouldnt think about their QB succession because maybe we can add a RB to help Manning find glory he hasnt had in seven years. I dont think this is how great franchises sustain excellence.
I am eager to see Sy's ratings tomorrow because as best as I can tell, there is nothing that I have seen that characterizes this as a strong quarterback class in terms of "Andrew Luck/Matt Ryan" transcendent quality. There may be many first round projected quarterbacks rated at the Mark Sanchez/Blaine Gabbert levels, but even then, there is absolutely no consensus whatsoever on any of the four. I thought Kiper and McShay were going to get into a fistfight on Friday defending their very different points of view!
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Common sense? Do you have $62 Million to spend on a 32 year-old OLT?
Well, that’s the age Solder will be when Darnold would most likely take the reins.
Do you think that Mara & Tisch signed Solder to man the OLT position @ $62 Mil for Eli’s waning years? Common sense?
The ownership whether we like it or not believes Eli has at least 2 years, if not more left to bring the Giants to the promised land. Mara/Tisch/Gettleman/Shurmur & Mssrs. are “ALL IN” for 2018 and beyond.
That means giving Eli all the help you can give him. It means fortifying the offensive line to try to augment the time Eli will have to scan the field while sitting in the pocket; it means giving Eli a running game; not only to complement the passing game, but to embellish it. The running game will be an important part 0f the team this year to take considerable pressure off Eli, and to augment ball control (in an attempt to give the defense a respite late in the game).
Accordingly, what this means in regards to the draft is that the Giants are likely going RB, then OG in Rd. 2 unless they trade down (due to John Dorsey selecting Barkley with #1).
Remember what George Young said (and it fits in the drafting context as well): “IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY”!
Fantastic. And true.
Several pro scouts have indicted Darnold to be at the top of this class of QBs. However, they have also cited that Darnold would have been 4th had he been drafted (after his best college season) in 2017 - after Trubisky, Watson & Mahomes. I don’t know if this is considered “Franchise”.
What do you think, Sy?
1. Of the Qbs that remain at 2, do the Giants have a franchise grade on any?
2. How firm are their convictions on Webb being the heir apparent?
3. With this draft potentially being extremely even historically deep at the QB position, how high a grade do they have on others that can be had after #2? (Like Lauletta)
4. Do they behind closed doors truly feel Eli has a mimumum of 2-3 years left? (as theyve been saying publicly)
5. How close do they feel they are to being competitive again? (It sounds like they want to take advantage of Eli's remaining window of championship level football as Ernie Accorsi put it)
Several pro scouts have indicted Darnold to be at the top of this class of QBs. However, they have also cited that Darnold would have been 4th had he been drafted (after his best college season) in 2017 - after Trubisky, Watson & Mahomes. I don’t know if this is considered “Franchise”.
What do you think, Sy?
a lot of analysts, Greg Cosell included, believe this is a solid group of qb prospects and think they compare favorably to other classes. Cosell for instance favors Rosen and Mayfield over Darnold and Allen and thinks Wentz was better coming out of college but these top 2 at least are just a notch below that.
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
the Browns are not taking Barkley. Nobody in the top 5 other than the Giants is even thinking about Barkley. To me you dint take Barkley at 2, not when we have a dire need at QB.
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In all likelihood, one won't be available to them anyway. If Barkley is the one who's there, you take him. If Darnold is there, tougher decision. If they take him, they will get very little help this year from the draft since Darnold would sit and they only have 5 more picks.
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
the Browns are not taking Barkley. Nobody in the top 5 other than the Giants is even thinking about Barkley. To me you dint take Barkley at 2, not when we have a dire need at QB.
QBs are the most important asset that can not be argued. But there are multiple variables that go into this (in rough order of importance):
1. Of the Qbs that remain at 2, do the Giants have a franchise grade on any?
2. How firm are their convictions on Webb being the heir apparent?
3. With this draft potentially being extremely even historically deep at the QB position, how high a grade do they have on others that can be had after #2? (Like Lauletta)
4. Do they behind closed doors truly feel Eli has a mimumum of 2-3 years left? (as theyve been saying publicly)
5. How close do they feel they are to being competitive again? (It sounds like they want to take advantage of Eli's remaining window of championship level football as Ernie Accorsi put it)