Still think Eli has one last run. Barkley would help us the most over the next two years. Drafting Darnold means we aren’t winning anything for quite a while.
It's common sense folks: your franchise QB is 37 years old and will turn 38 in early January. He also has only 2 years left on his deal. It's time. You let the kid watch and learn for a year and then you cut bait with your 39 year old starter via either trade or a flat out release at the end of the 2018 season.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Darnold because he plays the most sought after position in pro sports.
But I have been saying this all off-season... second pick.. two-man draft board.. Darnold is 1A, Barkley is 1B... we are getting one of these guys on Thursday night if I were GM... if they both are on the board at 2? I take Darnold without hesitation.. that said I’d bet my house that Cleveland drafts Darnold first overall... not buying this Josh Allen number one overall bullshit
It's common sense folks: your franchise QB is 37 years old and will turn 38 in early January. He also has only 2 years left on his deal. It's time. You let the kid watch and learn for a year and then you cut bait with your 39 year old starter via either trade or a flat out release at the end of the 2018 season.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Actually Strahan went out on his best terms. Like Koufax, he left at the pinnacle . LT went out floundering in the sand at Candlestick . Everything else you wrote is the best piece this year . Easily .
It's common sense folks: your franchise QB is 37 years old and will turn 38 in early January. He also has only 2 years left on his deal. It's time. You let the kid watch and learn for a year and then you cut bait with your 39 year old starter via either trade or a flat out release at the end of the 2018 season.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Perfect post, Optimus. Even if Barkley turns out to be a stud, who is going to be QBing this team in a couple years? What if Eli's decline is real, and he is not good THIS year? We'll look like our team with Tiki but we won't be grooming a young QB. Remember those years?
We just suffered through a 3-13 season, and we have a chance to draft a franchise QB. The Colts had to make a tough decision, and they cut Peyton Manning and drafted Luck. Yes, Peyton was coming off a neck injury, and Luck is a better prospect than these guys, but you don't bypass the chance to draft a franchise QB for a RB. Many of the best RBs - David Johnson, LeVeon Bell, Kareem Hunt, Alvin Kamara, LeSean McCoy, etc. - were drafted after 1st round. You do not need to spend a top 2 pick on a RB to get great value at the RB position. It's been proven time and time again.
It's common sense folks: your franchise QB is 37 years old and will turn 38 in early January. He also has only 2 years left on his deal. It's time. You let the kid watch and learn for a year and then you cut bait with your 39 year old starter via either trade or a flat out release at the end of the 2018 season.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
I witnessed the Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Danny Kannel years and remember how awful they were. We wasted some damn good defenses back then. That being said, no one knows how good any of these QB’s really are. I wouldn’t call any of them a “sure” thing, not that there even is such a thing. That being said, if you are a person that thinks Eli has a few years left, which I happen to be, you typically lean Barkley or Chubb or Nelson. If you think Eli is toast, then you gamble on a QB. It’s that simple.
If that's how you feel.....fair enough. My issue is you aren't facing reality. If Eli plays well next season, and I believe he will, he will be allowed to finish out his contract at a minimum. There will be no cutting bait. There in lies my problem. I think you guys ignore a kid, who's the number 2 pick in the draft, sitting for two years is absurd imo. That's why I don't want a qb. There all in with eli and winning now. If you disagree w the mindset fine. My problem is a lot here seem to ignore it. Most likely eli is here for 2 more seasons. Under that reality I can't agree on going qb.
On Barclay, this isn’t the era of Jim Brown or Earl Campbell. They don’t run the ball 60% of the time. Not that Barclay would hold up against that type of pounding -he wouldn’t . But the pick would be asymmetrical to the current trend in the league. The six running backs who saw the ball in the Super Bowl,combined , will probably be making less money than Barclay.
Gettleman has his chance to achieve greatness for this organization , which sadly has lost its way. I give him support but not blind loyalty . And if he fucks this one up, he’s going to be hearing about it .
I think the times are changing, and the old mantra about RB's is different. Picks like Gurley, Fournette, Melvin Gordon, and others have made a big difference to teams. You can also throw in Bell and Dalvin Cook (both 2nd rounders).
What happens if Eli's decline is real, which is what many players around the league said? What then? We have no QB, unless Webb bucks the trend and becomes a franchise QB from beyond the 1st round. If he doesn't, we are screwed.
It is not smart team building to bank on your 37 year old QB to have a rebound season. You also make it seem like if we pass on Barkley there is no way we can get a RB later in the draft that can help the offense. I just don't get it. If we don't pick a QB here, and Eli is really finished, we will either: a) have to suck badly enough to be in a position to pick a franchise QB soon; or b) trade a boatload of picks to move up to get one, much like Buffalo is trying to do (possibly with no success).
What then? The worst place you can be in football is without a franchise QB. Plain and simple. Even if you think Eli can play for two more years, it is still smart to hedge your bet and pick a young QB you can build around for after he is gone. It's just the way you build a team. You don't build a team by picking a RB with the second overall pick.
It's common sense folks: your franchise QB is 37 years old and will turn 38 in early January. He also has only 2 years left on his deal. It's time. You let the kid watch and learn for a year and then you cut bait with your 39 year old starter via either trade or a flat out release at the end of the 2018 season.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Using Joe Montana as your example backfires. Your so-called "greatest QB who ever lived" was picked with the last pick in the 3rd round. Meanwhile, the 3rd overall pick that same year was another QB named Jack Thompson who was put in your perfect situation - he had a chance to sit and learn behind veteran Ken Anderson. Did this turn out better for the Bengals who followed "you always draft a QB" at the top of the draft philosophy?
What happens if Eli's decline is real, which is what many players around the league said? What then? We have no QB, unless Webb bucks the trend and becomes a franchise QB from beyond the 1st round. If he doesn't, we are screwed.
It is not smart team building to bank on your 37 year old QB to have a rebound season. You also make it seem like if we pass on Barkley there is no way we can get a RB later in the draft that can help the offense. I just don't get it. If we don't pick a QB here, and Eli is really finished, we will either: a) have to suck badly enough to be in a position to pick a franchise QB soon; or b) trade a boatload of picks to move up to get one, much like Buffalo is trying to do (possibly with no success).
What then? The worst place you can be in football is without a franchise QB. Plain and simple. Even if you think Eli can play for two more years, it is still smart to hedge your bet and pick a young QB you can build around for after he is gone. It's just the way you build a team. You don't build a team by picking a RB with the second overall pick.
As i said in the other thread, In theory, a franchise QB is the way to go. But what if the Giants are not vested in any of these supposed top QBs? What if they think Webb is or will be the heir-apparent to Eli? Or that there’s a future QB in the later rounds? Doesn’t matter what WE want, it’s what the Giants have assessed.
As to the Shurmur “waste,” he did get very good mileage out of Keenum and Foles before that.
Taking the highest rated player in the ENTIRE draft at 2 (Barkley) is by no means a dumb move, especially given that he’s an every down player that, combined with the receiver talent, will benefit, Eli, the O in general and a rested D that will be called upon to come up big late in games
By not going qb you give Shurmer a year to evaluate Webb. If he doesn't like him you get a qb then. Forget what I think. The giants think eli can play. If there right taking a kid to sit 2 years is bad asset management. Were moving forward w eli. That's why I want bpa.
What happens if Eli's decline is real, which is what many players around the league said? What then? We have no QB, unless Webb bucks the trend and becomes a franchise QB from beyond the 1st round. If he doesn't, we are screwed.
It is not smart team building to bank on your 37 year old QB to have a rebound season. You also make it seem like if we pass on Barkley there is no way we can get a RB later in the draft that can help the offense. I just don't get it. If we don't pick a QB here, and Eli is really finished, we will either: a) have to suck badly enough to be in a position to pick a franchise QB soon; or b) trade a boatload of picks to move up to get one, much like Buffalo is trying to do (possibly with no success).
What then? The worst place you can be in football is without a franchise QB. Plain and simple. Even if you think Eli can play for two more years, it is still smart to hedge your bet and pick a young QB you can build around for after he is gone. It's just the way you build a team. You don't build a team by picking a RB with the second overall pick.
As i said in the other thread, In theory, a franchise QB is the way to go. But what if the Giants are not vested in any of these supposed top QBs? What if they think Webb is or will be the heir-apparent to Eli? Or that there’s a future QB in the later rounds? Doesn’t matter what WE want, it’s what the Giants have assessed.
As to the Shurmur “waste,” he did get very good mileage out of Keenum and Foles before that.
Taking the highest rated player in the ENTIRE draft at 2 (Barkley) is by no means a dumb move, especially given that he’s an every down player that, combined with the receiver talent, will benefit, Eli, the O in general and a rested D that will be called upon to come up big late in games
Just look at the GBN study on the use of top 3 picks over the past 10 years. Almost all of them have been used on QBs, LTs, and DEs. Exactly 1 - ONE - has been used on a RB. That RB - Trent Richardson - was a colossal bust. I'm not saying Barkley will be a bust. I'm just saying there is a reason that teams don't use top picks on RBs.
I'm sure you'll retort that two teams used the 4 pick on RBs. GBN said even expanding its study to the top 10 picks, QBs, LTs, and DEs are overrepresented while RBs (amongst others) are underrepresented in the top 10.
Let's put it this way: who would the Rams give up if forced to give up one: Goff or Gurley? They'd give up Gurley in a heartbeat. No question. And other than his first couple games, Gurley really, really struggled without Goff on the field. (And until McCoy came and revamped that system.) Nonetheless, you need a young QB to groom, and there is nothing to suggest Webb is that guy. When asked about Webb in his initial press conference, Shurmur said they had him as a draftable prospect. Not exactly glowing praise.
seem oblivious to the fact that the Giants have been trying to patch holes for "one more run" for years now and as a result have been one of the worst run teams in the league since the 2011 run. Not that I care, but much of the media is laughing at the Giants as a result. A 3 win team with a 37 year old quarterback who won 3 games last season is putting all their resources towards winning in the next two seasons. I don't see how anyone could a look at the current depth chart and their schedule and not laugh at that.
Eric has warned about this since Gettlemen was a candidate for Reese's job. I was actually optimistic. I didn't think Gettlemen was dumb enough to believe this team can win a super bowl in the next two years after flipping on Eli's games from the past two seasons and taking a look at the roster. When they traded for Ogletree I rolled my eyes at the media criticizing them for trying to win now since he's 26. When they traded JPP I was excited because it meant I was right about the Giants not actually being this stupid. The Ogletree trade I thought was indicative of nothing, Stewart was signed to help turn around the locker room for a year, and Solder they believe can start at LT into his mid-30's.
As we've drawn closer to the draft, every indication out there suggests that they're taking a running back at #2 overall and really are gearing up for 1 more run. I'm still very hopeful that that's wrong but if that is what comes to fruition, I'll finally admit that Eric was right and the media is spot on. With the Browns seemingly turning things around under Dorsey, the Jets making intelligent moves the past couple of off-seasons, you'd be hard pressed to find an organization as poorly run as the Giants in the league right now IF they really are as stupid as it seems.
I respect you but don't agree. I don't think Elis in decline. I think he's going to show a lot of you guys he has a lot of gas in the tank. If he plays well the kid qb will sit for 2 years. How does that make sense?
I do have a question though. I you put the initials WR in front of Barkley, does that change anyone’ s perception?
I'm in the QB with the first round pick boat -- unless the Giants really don't think that the player available to be picked is a franchise QB. I personally don't think that's possible bc I think both Darnold and Rosen are, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants really only like one of them.
That said, if the Giants don't believe that the QB available to them is a franchise QB, and if they don't trade down, then the only player I'd consider with the #2 pick is Barkley. I have my doubts about how good he'll ultimately be -- I'm worried by his lack of inside running prowess -- but in terms of talent, I think he's the only non-QB super blue chip talent. Maybe Nelson, but you just can't select a guard with your first #2 overall pick in 30 years. And as good as he may look, there's no such thing as a can't miss prospect, not even at guard. I don't put Chubb in that group. I think Chubb will be solid, but he's not in the same category as Miles Garrett, Kalil Mack, Von Miller, Joey Bosa.
you’re so fixated on your point that you fail to take this in: What if the Giants are lukewarm on the projected top QBs? Why would they draft one at 2? Makes no sense. They are going to go the non-QB route if they’re meh on them. Period.
RE: Selecting a RB at #2 overall is debatable all by itself Â
Selecting a RB at #2 with a 37-year old starting QB is highly questionable
Selecting a RB at #2 with that 37-year old starting QB coming off several obvious seasons of decline is egregious...
I’m not saying Eli hasn’t declined at all, it’s natural to decline over time however I wouldn’t say the decline is obvious. He’s been playing in an offense which frankly doesn’t match his skill set, and he is a play action QB with a line and running game that no one has feared in several years. It’s impossible to accurately judge him in that shitty of a landscape. To me Eli was the least of their problems offensively the last few years, but the QB always gets the blame. He’s not the type to throw his line and coaching staff under the bus, so he has acted as the whipping boy for quite some time now.
I respect you but don't agree. I don't think Elis in decline. I think he's going to show a lot of you guys he has a lot of gas in the tank. If he plays well the kid qb will sit for 2 years. How does that make sense?
Tell that to the Packers. Just 3 losing seasons since Favre's first full season in 1992. One was this past year which wouldn't have been one if Rodgers didn't go down.
Its a different argument you make. I think the giants will be good this year. If you don't fine. Disagree with the direction of the team. Time will tell who's right but they are trying to win now
By not going qb you give Shurmer a year to evaluate Webb. If he doesn't like him you get a qb then. Forget what I think. The giants think eli can play. If there right taking a kid to sit 2 years is bad asset management. Were moving forward w eli. That's why I want bpa.
I seriously have no idea how to say this differently. I don't care if they think Eli can play. That's fine. They have to acknowledge that at 37, he may not be around that much longer. They also have to acknowledge the fact that maybe, just maybe, he has already started to decline, and his poor play from the past two years is a mirage.
Gettleman acknowledged this in his press conference. He said he has to balance the long term with the short term. When you have a 37 year old QB - especially one who unequivocally has played poorly the past few seasons - you absolutely have to pick a young QB. Eli is not 27 now. He's 37. You're not deciding whether to replace him for poor play; you're deciding whether to replace him due to old age (and poor play). Webb does not factor into this equation. When picking at 2, you don't pick a RB; you pick a QB to groom behind Eli. No one, absolutely no one, will care if the guy sits for two years if you find the next Rodgers. Oh, and guess what? If Eli really is bad - then his career with the Giants is over after next year, and he'll likely be benched midseason, particularly now that his streak is over.
Whether the Giants think Eli can still play and drafting a young QB to groom at 2 are not mutually exclusive. You can still get other people in later rounds to help now. They also got guys to help on the line in FA. They addressed needs in FA to help now. Now, you address the long term QB need in the draft at 2.
Fair enough. You think a #2 pick in the draft could sit 2 years. I don't. In today's climate these kids need to play to maximize the fact initially they make no money. I'm not on board with a kid sitting and as long as there committed to eli lets try to maximize our resources.
Who's won more super bowls in the last 12 years? Giants and Gettleman know what there doing
Not disagreeing with you, but where would the Giants be if they had stuck with Kerry Collins and drafting someone like Sean Taylor or Kellen Winslow Jr. instead of moving up and getting Eli Manning?
And that's the point of all this. They identified that Collins was not good enough to win a SB. Eli is nearing the end and is likely not good enough to win (or won't be soon). You'd think Gettleman knows this. And remember, when the Giants drafted Eli, they signed Warner and did not start Eli immediately. It was not until the middle of the next season that they started Eli.
Fair enough. You think a #2 pick in the draft could sit 2 years. I don't. In today's climate these kids need to play to maximize the fact initially they make no money. I'm not on board with a kid sitting and as long as there committed to eli lets try to maximize our resources.
Also, I don't think Eli's play is going to warrant sitting a kid two years. I'll be pleasantly surprised if that happens. Frankly, I think Eli is going to struggle next year, and the kid is going to replace Eli midseason. I think this is Eli's last season in NY.
A few weeks ago I thought it was a sure fire thing that the Giants go QB. Now I'm not so sure. The media has zero idea what DG is going to do. That's a fact.
I personally would love to trade down to 4-5 range and pick up Mayfield and some other picks.
The best player in college football was Baker Mayfield. PFF has him as the highest rated QB they have ever rated in college (I think that's what I read)... I think he's the perfect guy to sit and mature behind Eli a year or two.
It's a crap shoot. There is some great RB talent in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Lonk - ( New Window )
A few weeks ago I thought it was a sure fire thing that the Giants go QB. Now I'm not so sure. The media has zero idea what DG is going to do. That's a fact.
I personally would love to trade down to 4-5 range and pick up Mayfield and some other picks.
The best player in college football was Baker Mayfield. PFF has him as the highest rated QB they have ever rated in college (I think that's what I read)... I think he's the perfect guy to sit and mature behind Eli a year or two.
It's a crap shoot. There is some great RB talent in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Lonk - ( New Window )
Unless Darnold is sitting there at 3, Mayfield appears to be as close to a lock as one can be before the draft to go to the Jets there
And for those who don't want a QB now - just when do you think you'll get one and for how much? What are the chances the Giants are a top 3 pick next year? And next years QBs are not so good.
And to jtgiants, no QBs do not have to play right away. Especially Darnold, who is totally incapable of starting an NFL game at this moment. Only two QBs in this draft could be competent starting this year, Rosen and Mayfield.(IMV of course).
However, if Cleveland doesn't take Barkley, I think that is who Gettleman takes.
Fair enough. We disagree on eli. If you're wrong on eli will you b ok with a kid sitting 2 years? If the answer is yes ok fine. No issue. I disagree and wouldn't be ok w that. That said I respect your opinion. Gettleman can't win Thursday. No matter what he does many won't agree
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
A few weeks ago I thought it was a sure fire thing that the Giants go QB. Now I'm not so sure. The media has zero idea what DG is going to do. That's a fact.
I personally would love to trade down to 4-5 range and pick up Mayfield and some other picks.
The best player in college football was Baker Mayfield. PFF has him as the highest rated QB they have ever rated in college (I think that's what I read)... I think he's the perfect guy to sit and mature behind Eli a year or two.
It's a crap shoot. There is some great RB talent in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Lonk - ( New Window )
Unless Darnold is sitting there at 3, Mayfield appears to be as close to a lock as one can be before the draft to go to the Jets there
Thursday night should be fun. The media seems to think the Browns will go Josh Allen at #1. That would leave Rosen, Darnold and Mayfield there for the picking.
I really think DG goes QB here. Which do they like the most? We shall see Thursday night.
Fair enough. We disagree on eli. If you're wrong on eli will you b ok with a kid sitting 2 years? If the answer is yes ok fine. No issue. I disagree and wouldn't be ok w that. That said I respect your opinion. Gettleman can't win Thursday. No matter what he does many won't agree
JT: I think we both respect each other's opinions; we're adults here. I think - and hope - that while that Giants may think Eli can still play, they have to have some reservations that maybe, just maybe, he is really declining. They must have gone through the games and watched some of throws and thought, this is not just the scheme. Or this is not just the line. And maybe they think Shurmur can fix some of that; after all, he worked magic with Keenum last season. But somewhere in there, I have to believe they are worried that Eli has reached the end, even if they won't publicly admit it (which would be the exact wrong thing to do).
On Thursday, we'll see which way they intend to go. But if they pick an RB, they are unquestionably setting this franchise up for a long time in QB hell when Eli is finished, whether that be this season, next season, or in three years.
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
Could be MORE THAN 2 years for Eli with Barkley, our receivers and an improved OL in tow. Of course, if his happy feet stemming from no running game a porous OL and injuries remain present, he may not even have 2 years
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
IF ELI PLAYS WELL. And it's not awful management because in year 3 and year 4, you'll have unbelievable savings with a great QB, if you hit. And if you hit, you'll have your QB for the next 10-15 years, which is what you want anyway.
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
I agree with you 100%. No way they turn away from Eli if he has a halfway decent year this year. And frankly they shouldn’t. The guy just turned 37, the way the rules protect QB’s now you are going to see a lot of guys playing until they are 40. I mean that was unheard of years ago. Now you have Brees, Brady, etc still out there in their 40’s. I understand the panic by some that we need a QB, but we still have one that is capable of winning. If you had a guy like Andrew Luck sitting there I would say you absolutely go QB, but none of these guys really jumps off the page as being some amazing prospect.
Fair enough. We disagree on eli. If you're wrong on eli will you b ok with a kid sitting 2 years? If the answer is yes ok fine. No issue. I disagree and wouldn't be ok w that. That said I respect your opinion. Gettleman can't win Thursday. No matter what he does many won't agree
JT: I think we both respect each other's opinions; we're adults here. I think - and hope - that while that Giants may think Eli can still play, they have to have some reservations that maybe, just maybe, he is really declining. They must have gone through the games and watched some of throws and thought, this is not just the scheme. Or this is not just the line. And maybe they think Shurmur can fix some of that; after all, he worked magic with Keenum last season. But somewhere in there, I have to believe they are worried that Eli has reached the end, even if they won't publicly admit it (which would be the exact wrong thing to do).
On Thursday, we'll see which way they intend to go. But if they pick an RB, they are unquestionably setting this franchise up for a long time in QB hell when Eli is finished, whether that be this season, next season, or in three years.
I understand your line of thinking, but none of these guys is a can’t miss prospect from the outset this year. Passing on a blue chip player at another position to draft one of them could also put us in QB hell a few years from now if they don’t pan out. This is what Gettleman was referring to the other day when he said taking the wrong QB this high sets you back five years.
You're writing off Webb. There not. Neither am I. That's the difference
I don't know what they're doing with Webb. But Gettleman's press conference suggested that Webb is not going to play much of a role into their decision making with the second overall pick. Could that be a lie? Sure. But I don't buy that a different coach and GM have any allegiance to Webb or that the third round pick from a year ago from a regime they don't trust will impact their pick this time around.
I don't have inside sources, so I could be wrong. Maybe it's just hopeful thinking on my part. But I will be livid if they do not select a QB with the second overall pick on Thursday.
Ok. Here's why I'm not ok sitting a #2 overall pick 2 years. You need all the info you can get on these guys. Not playing him for 2 years really hampers the growth and evaluation s that can only be made by playing time. I'm just not comfortable w a kid potentially sitting 2 years and I believe that very well could happen
Gettleman is a professional. I would expect the pick to be a Darnold.
Watson, these are my feelings. I want one of these two players and logic says the QB (but not the heart). Since I am clueless, I will leave it to Gettleman and trust his choice.
Is basically going to be 50/50 share of those pissed off vs those that are thrilled. Gettleman is in a no win situation from a fans reaction standpoint, however, I don’t think he really cares. He will do what he feels is the best thing for the team.
Fair enough. We disagree on eli. If you're wrong on eli will you b ok with a kid sitting 2 years? If the answer is yes ok fine. No issue. I disagree and wouldn't be ok w that. That said I respect your opinion. Gettleman can't win Thursday. No matter what he does many won't agree
JT: I think we both respect each other's opinions; we're adults here. I think - and hope - that while that Giants may think Eli can still play, they have to have some reservations that maybe, just maybe, he is really declining. They must have gone through the games and watched some of throws and thought, this is not just the scheme. Or this is not just the line. And maybe they think Shurmur can fix some of that; after all, he worked magic with Keenum last season. But somewhere in there, I have to believe they are worried that Eli has reached the end, even if they won't publicly admit it (which would be the exact wrong thing to do).
On Thursday, we'll see which way they intend to go. But if they pick an RB, they are unquestionably setting this franchise up for a long time in QB hell when Eli is finished, whether that be this season, next season, or in three years.
I understand your line of thinking, but none of these guys is a can’t miss prospect from the outset this year. Passing on a blue chip player at another position to draft one of them could also put us in QB hell a few years from now if they don’t pan out. This is what Gettleman was referring to the other day when he said taking the wrong QB this high sets you back five years.
You did listen when he said that if you ask the right questions you find the answers in response to the picking the wrong QB. You think it's better if we pick Barkley at 2 and he busts? Greg Robinson and Robert Gallery were thought to be can't miss tackles at 2 overall, and they busted. If you miss at any position at 2 overall, it messes you up badly.
And good QBs very, very rarely hit the open market. Brees, Jimmy G., Cousins (who I don't think is that good) are the exception. So if you hope to get a franchise QB, you're pretty much going to have to take one, and they typically get taken in the top 5. So at some point the Giants are more than likely going to have to spend a high 1st round pick to get their next franchise QB. Gettleman knows that. He knows that at some point he will have to draft a QB. Next time they need a QB is he going to pass on one because he says drafting the wrong QB messes up a team for years? I mean, with that philosophy, you'll basically never draft a QB again, and that makes it supremely difficult to land a young, franchise QB.
What is this, the #175th thread on this exact topic?
For Fuchs sake.
Right, because no new threads is much better than a few repetitive ones? You self proclaimed thread police are proving to be the slow motion death of this site.
You read the thread title. If you were not interested, don't click on it. WE ARE LESS THAN A WEEK FROM THE DRAFT.... This site should be full of draft threads right now. Not everyone spends all winter following the minutia of this stuff. Many people are just tuning in now, and frankly, they are probably no worse off for the decision. Why bother with the daily nonsense when they can get the full rundown around this time when info and intentions seem to come into actual focus?
If this thread is not sufficiently crafted prose for your literary taste, perhaps you can start your own thread and put us all in awe of how a real pro does it??? Link - ( New Window )
I think no matter what, a GM gets criticized with their draft pick. And, yes, I think Gettleman will get criticized for this pick on Thursday. However, normally I am ok going in one direction or another. If we had a QB, I could see Barkley or Chubb or Nelson. Not that I would agree with any of those guys, but I could see the argument for any, and I'd ultimately live with it. Here, I just can't see the argument for anyone other than a QB, because it simply makes no sense to me.
Fair enough. We disagree on eli. If you're wrong on eli will you b ok with a kid sitting 2 years? If the answer is yes ok fine. No issue. I disagree and wouldn't be ok w that. That said I respect your opinion. Gettleman can't win Thursday. No matter what he does many won't agree
JT: I think we both respect each other's opinions; we're adults here. I think - and hope - that while that Giants may think Eli can still play, they have to have some reservations that maybe, just maybe, he is really declining. They must have gone through the games and watched some of throws and thought, this is not just the scheme. Or this is not just the line. And maybe they think Shurmur can fix some of that; after all, he worked magic with Keenum last season. But somewhere in there, I have to believe they are worried that Eli has reached the end, even if they won't publicly admit it (which would be the exact wrong thing to do).
On Thursday, we'll see which way they intend to go. But if they pick an RB, they are unquestionably setting this franchise up for a long time in QB hell when Eli is finished, whether that be this season, next season, or in three years.
I understand your line of thinking, but none of these guys is a can’t miss prospect from the outset this year. Passing on a blue chip player at another position to draft one of them could also put us in QB hell a few years from now if they don’t pan out. This is what Gettleman was referring to the other day when he said taking the wrong QB this high sets you back five years.
You did listen when he said that if you ask the right questions you find the answers in response to the picking the wrong QB. You think it's better if we pick Barkley at 2 and he busts? Greg Robinson and Robert Gallery were thought to be can't miss tackles at 2 overall, and they busted. If you miss at any position at 2 overall, it messes you up badly.
And good QBs very, very rarely hit the open market. Brees, Jimmy G., Cousins (who I don't think is that good) are the exception. So if you hope to get a franchise QB, you're pretty much going to have to take one, and they typically get taken in the top 5. So at some point the Giants are more than likely going to have to spend a high 1st round pick to get their next franchise QB. Gettleman knows that. He knows that at some point he will have to draft a QB. Next time they need a QB is he going to pass on one because he says drafting the wrong QB messes up a team for years? I mean, with that philosophy, you'll basically never draft a QB again, and that makes it supremely difficult to land a young, franchise QB.
Agreed, any player can be a bust, and at 2 it sucks if that happens. I personally don’t feel that strongly about any of these QB’s, which is why I don’t feel that we are necessarily screwed if we don’t take one of them. And there have been seemingly more and more QB’s coming from outside the top 5 in recent years. Rodgers, Garropolo, Watson, Wilson, Prescott, Cousins, Brees, Brady, none of those guys were top 5 picks and are either entrenched stars or rising stars at this point. For all of the great QB’s taken early, there are a lot of busts as well.
I respect you but don't agree. I don't think Elis in decline. I think he's going to show a lot of you guys he has a lot of gas in the tank. If he plays well the kid qb will sit for 2 years. How does that make sense?
I indicated my first statement was debatable. Disagreeing with the other two points is actually what makes no sense...
I think no matter what, a GM gets criticized with their draft pick. And, yes, I think Gettleman will get criticized for this pick on Thursday. However, normally I am ok going in one direction or another. If we had a QB, I could see Barkley or Chubb or Nelson. Not that I would agree with any of those guys, but I could see the argument for any, and I'd ultimately live with it. Here, I just can't see the argument for anyone other than a QB, because it simply makes no sense to me.
Too stubborn to respond to my posts? They will NOT take a QB if they DO NOT view any of them as a franchise-maker, so taking a QB just because you want one, is not going to happen. Period. Exclamation point.
If they like the QBs, they WILL take one, also period, exclamation.
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
You take a QB when you have a chance (has to be top quality, no reaching) when your starting QB is 37. Does not matter if he sits one or two years. If ELi was 34, I'd agree no QB. But Eli is 37 and has not been very good for two years, at least. He can be reasonably cut in 2019.
But, in all honesty, while I'd prefer a QB, if Gettleman goes Barkley, I don't care. Not really a Chubb fan at #2.
I think no matter what, a GM gets criticized with their draft pick. And, yes, I think Gettleman will get criticized for this pick on Thursday. However, normally I am ok going in one direction or another. If we had a QB, I could see Barkley or Chubb or Nelson. Not that I would agree with any of those guys, but I could see the argument for any, and I'd ultimately live with it. Here, I just can't see the argument for anyone other than a QB, because it simply makes no sense to me.
Too stubborn to respond to my posts? They will NOT take a QB if they DO NOT view any of them as a franchise-maker, so taking a QB just because you want one, is not going to happen. Period. Exclamation point.
If they like the QBs, they WILL take one, also period, exclamation.
Exactly. I think the hesitancy from many on this board in regard to taking a QB is that there isn’t really a “near perfect” prospect in this class. Every one of the top 4 could honestly be a bust, there are traits with each one that could be career killers. Rosen with the frailty, Darnold and the turnovers, Mayfield’s height/attitude, Allen’s accuracy. If Andrew Luck was sitting there (not the injured version), there would be almost no debate over who they should take this year. But that QB prospect is not sitting there this year. These guys could be amazing, but to me here is huge bust potential in this group.
Yes to unstoppable 80 receptions 1000 yards out of the backfield. Want to stop that? You cant, you have no choice, or OBJ will rape you down the field in single coverage.
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
It’s not just Barkley. This draft has some serious talent at non QB positions, at least on paper. Many are saying Chubb is the best DE to come out in the last five years, Barkley the best RB in ten. Not to mention Quentin Nelson who ex offensive lineman just rave about. I think the perceived skill level at other positions is higher than what we see in many drafts which makes taking a QB who has some serious concerns more difficult to stomach for many of us.
But I’m tired of all the QB people saying you gotta draft your QB for the next 10-15 years, how hell do we know the QB will make it that long??? Keep hearing this over and over and it’s crazy
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
I think the perceived skill level at other positions is higher than what we see in many drafts which makes taking a QB who has some serious concerns more difficult to stomach for many of us.
Yet, continually starting an aging QB with serious concerns is okay to stomach?
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Not when you have a quickly growing need at QB on your hands...
I think the perceived skill level at other positions is higher than what we see in many drafts which makes taking a QB who has some serious concerns more difficult to stomach for many of us.
Yet, continually starting an aging QB with serious concerns is okay to stomach?
I don’t have many concerns about Eli. I feel that an improved line and a running game would make a world of difference. Drew Brees has declined as well, but having a running game sure made a difference for him and his team last year.
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Not when you have a quickly growing need at QB on your hands...
You can win with Eli Manning. But the surrounding pieces need to be better, plain and simple.
I am NOT saying ignore QB...it is literally a coin flip for me right now...but the QB has to grade out well enough. Forcing it there while looking past the best RB prospect in a long time is foolish.
NYG is committed to Eli Manning for another year or two, it makes a lot of sense to make the team around him better.
I think the perceived skill level at other positions is higher than what we see in many drafts which makes taking a QB who has some serious concerns more difficult to stomach for many of us.
Yet, continually starting an aging QB with serious concerns is okay to stomach?
I don’t have many concerns about Eli. I feel that an improved line and a running game would make a world of difference. Drew Brees has declined as well, but having a running game sure made a difference for him and his team last year.
Brees threw for more yards and more touchdowns two years ago than Eli has in any season over the course of his career. The team wasn't as good as last year but they still won 7 games with Brees carrying them on his shoulders. I love Eli but he was never in Brees' league. Eli was never a top 3 quarterback in the NFL aside from arguably one season. Brees always was. He's declining from a much higher perch than Eli is.
But I’m tired of all the QB people saying you gotta draft your QB for the next 10-15 years, how hell do we know the QB will make it that long??? Keep hearing this over and over and it’s crazy
With that attitude then how do you know that Barkley won't get one shot in the knee and be basically a shell of what he is projected to be?
I think an improved O-line and running game would Â
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Not when you have a quickly growing need at QB on your hands...
You can win with Eli Manning. But the surrounding pieces need to be better, plain and simple.
I am NOT saying ignore QB...it is literally a coin flip for me right now...but the QB has to grade out well enough. Forcing it there while looking past the best RB prospect in a long time is foolish.
NYG is committed to Eli Manning for another year or two, it makes a lot of sense to make the team around him better.
You can make the team better while also drafting a QB in Rd 1.
I think the perceived skill level at other positions is higher than what we see in many drafts which makes taking a QB who has some serious concerns more difficult to stomach for many of us.
Yet, continually starting an aging QB with serious concerns is okay to stomach?
I don’t have many concerns about Eli. I feel that an improved line and a running game would make a world of difference. Drew Brees has declined as well, but having a running game sure made a difference for him and his team last year.
Brees threw for more yards and more touchdowns two years ago than Eli has in any season over the course of his career. The team wasn't as good as last year but they still won 7 games with Brees carrying them on his shoulders. I love Eli but he was never in Brees' league. Eli was never a top 3 quarterback in the NFL aside from arguably one season. Brees always was. He's declining from a much higher perch than Eli is.
Not really comparing Eli to Brees. I’m saying that the running game made the Saints a better team and allowed the burden to fall on someone other than Brees. I think Barkley and a few more oline pieces could have the same impact on the Giants this year. Did anyone expect the Saints to be as good as they were last year? Doubt it, things change quickly in today’s NFL.
at the young QBs on the roster last season, before having to decide on these college prospects. Now all of a sudden he's committed to Eli for at least two years? Doesn't really add up.
Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
But I’m tired of all the QB people saying you gotta draft your QB for the next 10-15 years, how hell do we know the QB will make it that long??? Keep hearing this over and over and it’s crazy
With that attitude then how do you know that Barkley won't get one shot in the knee and be basically a shell of what he is projected to be?
I don’t disagree, but it goes both ways. Rosen, for example, hasn’t shown the ability in college to stay healthy.
Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
If they aren’t sold on the guys this year, you would be better off waiting and trading up if you like a guy in a future year rather than force one now.
Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
Well you can't fill every hole in an offseason, and you certainly can't fill every hole and future holes in an offseason.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
OL should be very much improved with a new LT and hopefully a new interior guy from round 2. The backfield can be enormously better with Barkley. And the WR core should be improved as a result of health. New defensive scheme with some tweaks to personnel on all levels..this team can contend.
But I’m tired of all the QB people saying you gotta draft your QB for the next 10-15 years, how hell do we know the QB will make it that long??? Keep hearing this over and over and it’s crazy
With that attitude then how do you know that Barkley won't get one shot in the knee and be basically a shell of what he is projected to be?
I don’t disagree, but it goes both ways. Rosen, for example, hasn’t shown the ability in college to stay healthy.
And as you say it goes both ways. SO are you going to trust the longevity of a Qb or a featured RB that gets hits hit 25-40+ times a game? I'll take the guy with 2 concussions in college. Just give him a good OL.
Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
Well you can't fill every hole in an offseason, and you certainly can't fill every hole and future holes in an offseason.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
OL should be very much improved with a new LT and hopefully a new interior guy from round 2. The backfield can be enormously better with Barkley. And the WR core should be improved as a result of health. New defensive scheme with some tweaks to personnel on all levels..this team can contend.
I don't think we should go qb. We've debated this. Here's my point. People are dug in this year and nobody agrees.
1. Many want a qb
2. Many want Barkley
3. Many want Chubb
4. Many want trade down
Most here won't be happy if it doesn't go there way. People don't even agree on the teams goals. Many think they want to win now. Many feel that's impossible. This draft is clearly the most polarizing draft in a long time
Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
If they aren’t sold on the guys this year, you would be better off waiting and trading up if you like a guy in a future year rather than force one now.
No disrespect...but no shit. Its my view there is enough QB value in this draft and enough declining value at the position on the current roster to "get sold".
Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
Well you can't fill every hole in an offseason, and you certainly can't fill every hole and future holes in an offseason.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
OL should be very much improved with a new LT and hopefully a new interior guy from round 2. The backfield can be enormously better with Barkley. And the WR core should be improved as a result of health. New defensive scheme with some tweaks to personnel on all levels..this team can contend.
How much si the Oline going to be better?
Didn't you say the guard Omameh isn't very good? I think you went on to sya he needs good surrounding OLinemen. Yet isn't Jones just "average?"
And even if the Giants get a 2nd Rd OL guard, there is no assurance in year he will be good. And then add in the situation at RT.
SO when you say "The OL" should be "much improved"- we have to take that into context right? It sill be highly unlikely they are good, right?
RE: RE: RE: Not selecting a QB is ignoring the QB Â
Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
If they aren’t sold on the guys this year, you would be better off waiting and trading up if you like a guy in a future year rather than force one now.
No disrespect...but no shit. Its my view there is enough QB value in this draft and enough declining value at the position on the current roster to "get sold".
And I feel the exact opposite about this years QB’s. Agree to disagree.
I don't think we should go qb. We've debated this. Here's my point. People are dug in this year and nobody agrees.
1. Many want a qb
2. Many want Barkley
3. Many want Chubb
4. Many want trade down
Most here won't be happy if it doesn't go there way. People don't even agree on the teams goals. Many think they want to win now. Many feel that's impossible. This draft is clearly the most polarizing draft in a long time
Both can be true, the organization can want to win now and it can also be impossible :). That's where I'm at
I don't think we should go qb. We've debated this. Here's my point. People are dug in this year and nobody agrees.
1. Many want a qb
2. Many want Barkley
3. Many want Chubb
4. Many want trade down
Most here won't be happy if it doesn't go there way. People don't even agree on the teams goals. Many think they want to win now. Many feel that's impossible. This draft is clearly the most polarizing draft in a long time
I think we should go QB.
But I'm confused why you think so many that have opposing views is relevant. So what?
If the Giants don't go QB-- we just have to believe they are right/ have a plan that will work.
as much as we have debated it for months, we are all still just as entrenched in our points of view as ever. And it really comes down to one simple question: Can Eli guide the Giants to another championship in the next two years. Those who believe this to be the case want Barkley. Those who don't, want Darnold. We can all agree that if Gettleman is presented with a king's ransom of pics that exceeds the value of either, he will take the haul.
I have been steadfast in my support of Eli mainly because it is the only path to a championship in the next two years. I believe that his mediocre play these past six years is due to the lack of supporting talent, abysmal coaching and an offensive scheme that has been misaligned with his talent. With Barkley, a solid draft and the recent additions through free agency and trades, I am confident we will see a resurgence from Eli and a return to playoff form immediately. And if we do make the playoffs, I wouldn't bet against Eli vs any quarterback in the league - ever.
If you don't believe in Eli, I get it. He has made you very frustrated in recent years and you want a new era of offense characterized by a more mobile "Aaron Rodgers-esque" quarterback talent. Maybe Darnold is that guy. But here's the thing. The likelihood that a new quarterback leads a team like the Giants quickly to a championship is very low. Can it happen quickly? Yes - Roethlisberger and Brady did it in their first year as a starter. But they are truly exceptions. The median of the four top first round quarterback draft picks in the last 35 years - Elway, Aikman, Peyton and Eli Manning - is six years. Andrew Luck, the very best quarterback drafted in the 21st century, is 3-3 in the playoffs and I am not sure that he will ever win a championship. And if Darnold is a bust, forget it. You can add five years on top of the six... as Gettleman stated on Thursday.
If Gettleman does draft Darnold, then he is essentially announcing that he does not believe that the Giants can win now with Eli. Yes, he will utter lots of politically correct statements saying he is just being prudent. But the whispers will start to grow and, like Eli himself in 2004, Darnold will be the starter just after the bye on Monday night November 12, 2018 against the 49ers facing Garoppolo. It will be high drama. And Garoppolo will demonstrate that he is far ahead of Darnold. But this will be as it should be - you can't have a top ten quarterback sit anymore. Eli himself proved that and it is true. He needs to begin truly learning the position and the only way to do that is to be on the field asap.
I guess the truth for me is, waiting another six to ten years before we win another Lombardi trophy is just not acceptable for me... I do think we have the talent with a few additional pieces to compete in the next two years so I choose to believe in Eli...
Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
Well you can't fill every hole in an offseason, and you certainly can't fill every hole and future holes in an offseason.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
OL should be very much improved with a new LT and hopefully a new interior guy from round 2. The backfield can be enormously better with Barkley. And the WR core should be improved as a result of health. New defensive scheme with some tweaks to personnel on all levels..this team can contend.
Fair, but I could say almost the same thing with putting a Michel, Jones or Guice back there and an interior guy in Rd 3, AND I wouldn't have to mortgage the future for a QB in a future draft.
If you want me to rate this on a 1-10 scale in terms of league comparison by position:
2017
Left Tackle = 5
Left Guard = 6
Center = 5
Right Guard = 5
Right Tackle = 2
2018
Left Tackle = 9 (Solder, not the best but very good)
Left Guard = 6 (2nd round rookie or Omameh)...this could be a 7 easily
Center = 5 (Jones again, maybe a rookie steps in)
Right Guard = 5 (Jerry again, average at best)
Right Tackle = 5 (Flowers or Wheeler, anything is better than what they had in 2017)
RE: This question continues to be asked because... Â
as much as we have debated it for months, we are all still just as entrenched in our points of view as ever. And it really comes down to one simple question: Can Eli guide the Giants to another championship in the next two years. Those who believe this to be the case want Barkley. Those who don't, want Darnold. We can all agree that if Gettleman is presented with a king's ransom of pics that exceeds the value of either, he will take the haul.
I have been steadfast in my support of Eli mainly because it is the only path to a championship in the next two years. I believe that his mediocre play these past six years is due to the lack of supporting talent, abysmal coaching and an offensive scheme that has been misaligned with his talent. With Barkley, a solid draft and the recent additions through free agency and trades, I am confident we will see a resurgence from Eli and a return to playoff form immediately. And if we do make the playoffs, I wouldn't bet against Eli vs any quarterback in the league - ever.
If you don't believe in Eli, I get it. He has made you very frustrated in recent years and you want a new era of offense characterized by a more mobile "Aaron Rodgers-esque" quarterback talent. Maybe Darnold is that guy. But here's the thing. The likelihood that a new quarterback leads a team like the Giants quickly to a championship is very low. Can it happen quickly? Yes - Roethlisberger and Brady did it in their first year as a starter. But they are truly exceptions. The median of the four top first round quarterback draft picks in the last 35 years - Elway, Aikman, Peyton and Eli Manning - is six years. Andrew Luck, the very best quarterback drafted in the 21st century, is 3-3 in the playoffs and I am not sure that he will ever win a championship. And if Darnold is a bust, forget it. You can add five years on top of the six... as Gettleman stated on Thursday.
If Gettleman does draft Darnold, then he is essentially announcing that he does not believe that the Giants can win now with Eli. Yes, he will utter lots of politically correct statements saying he is just being prudent. But the whispers will start to grow and, like Eli himself in 2004, Darnold will be the starter just after the bye on Monday night November 12, 2018 against the 49ers facing Garoppolo. It will be high drama. And Garoppolo will demonstrate that he is far ahead of Darnold. But this will be as it should be - you can't have a top ten quarterback sit anymore. Eli himself proved that and it is true. He needs to begin truly learning the position and the only way to do that is to be on the field asap.
I guess the truth for me is, waiting another six to ten years before we win another Lombardi trophy is just not acceptable for me... I do think we have the talent with a few additional pieces to compete in the next two years so I choose to believe in Eli...
We will know soon enough what Gettleman believes.
Well said. In today’s league of constant player movement and overall parity it is more than plausible for the Giants to bounce back this year and be a contender. Look no further than the Jaguars this past season. They went from being one of the leagues worst teams to a few plays away from a Super Bowl in one season.
No matter what we do, there will be a 1 down year for the sake of Â
the next decade+. We take QB #2 this year, we are giving Eli no help and basically throwing this year away. We select Barkley #2, we give Eli help, extend his career for 2 years, and if Webb isn't a decent enough game manager, then we have a bad year after Eli's gone and have yet another top 10 pick for a QB.
The only thing I disagree with is eli won't be benched and the kid will sit the year. If Eli plays well he finishes his contract. I agree a kid shouldn't sit but that is the plan and why I don't want qb
And if you have to flip a coin because you don't see enough value Â
in this draft's QBs, then get the hell out of the #2 pick.
Improve the team across multiple positions with numerous extra picks. They should all help Eli too...no?
And if his decline becomes more of a problem and the team still cannot improve its winning %, then I guess you can hope we still pick relatively high in the draft next year.
But I would still go QB this year...
RE: This question continues to be asked because... Â
as much as we have debated it for months, we are all still just as entrenched in our points of view as ever. And it really comes down to one simple question: Can Eli guide the Giants to another championship in the next two years. Those who believe this to be the case want Barkley. Those who don't, want Darnold. We can all agree that if Gettleman is presented with a king's ransom of pics that exceeds the value of either, he will take the haul.
I have been steadfast in my support of Eli mainly because it is the only path to a championship in the next two years. I believe that his mediocre play these past six years is due to the lack of supporting talent, abysmal coaching and an offensive scheme that has been misaligned with his talent. With Barkley, a solid draft and the recent additions through free agency and trades, I am confident we will see a resurgence from Eli and a return to playoff form immediately. And if we do make the playoffs, I wouldn't bet against Eli vs any quarterback in the league - ever.
If you don't believe in Eli, I get it. He has made you very frustrated in recent years and you want a new era of offense characterized by a more mobile "Aaron Rodgers-esque" quarterback talent. Maybe Darnold is that guy. But here's the thing. The likelihood that a new quarterback leads a team like the Giants quickly to a championship is very low. Can it happen quickly? Yes - Roethlisberger and Brady did it in their first year as a starter. But they are truly exceptions. The median of the four top first round quarterback draft picks in the last 35 years - Elway, Aikman, Peyton and Eli Manning - is six years. Andrew Luck, the very best quarterback drafted in the 21st century, is 3-3 in the playoffs and I am not sure that he will ever win a championship. And if Darnold is a bust, forget it. You can add five years on top of the six... as Gettleman stated on Thursday.
If Gettleman does draft Darnold, then he is essentially announcing that he does not believe that the Giants can win now with Eli. Yes, he will utter lots of politically correct statements saying he is just being prudent. But the whispers will start to grow and, like Eli himself in 2004, Darnold will be the starter just after the bye on Monday night November 12, 2018 against the 49ers facing Garoppolo. It will be high drama. And Garoppolo will demonstrate that he is far ahead of Darnold. But this will be as it should be - you can't have a top ten quarterback sit anymore. Eli himself proved that and it is true. He needs to begin truly learning the position and the only way to do that is to be on the field asap.
I guess the truth for me is, waiting another six to ten years before we win another Lombardi trophy is just not acceptable for me... I do think we have the talent with a few additional pieces to compete in the next two years so I choose to believe in Eli...
We will know soon enough what Gettleman believes.
By passing up a QB this year, I think it's far more likely that you'll wait longer than 6-10 years for a quarterback. Leaving Eli out of it for a second, there's just so much that goes into winning a SB. With a new coaching staff and system on both sides of the ball, it'll take time for things to gel. Given the brutal nature of the Giants schedule it may be too late to turn things around and make the playoffs by then. What about injuries? That's luck for the most part so a few key injuries in either or both of those seasons derail those dreams.
That's my biggest frustration with how this organization has been run. For years now it has been quick fixes and building solely for the upcoming season. Yet, given how much luck goes into winning a super bowl in the NFL the more intelligent thing to do is to build to sustain long term success and hope that over the course of a decade-plus that you have a year or two where things fall into place and you can win it all.
RE: RE: RE: Not selecting a QB is ignoring the QB Â
Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
Well you can't fill every hole in an offseason, and you certainly can't fill every hole and future holes in an offseason.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
OL should be very much improved with a new LT and hopefully a new interior guy from round 2. The backfield can be enormously better with Barkley. And the WR core should be improved as a result of health. New defensive scheme with some tweaks to personnel on all levels..this team can contend.
Fair, but I could say almost the same thing with putting a Michel, Jones or Guice back there and an interior guy in Rd 3, AND I wouldn't have to mortgage the future for a QB in a future draft.
It sounds like you are under the impression it is an absolute that you have to mortgage the future to draft a QB...?
Teams that I consider to have a favorable QB situation that did not have to do that....
DAL - Prescott - 4th round
BAL - Flacco - 18th overall
CIN - Dalton - 2nd round
OAK - Carr - 2nd round
SF - Garropolo - Traded a 2nd rounder
SEA - Wilson - 3rd round
NO - Brees - 2nd round (by SD)
GB - Rodgers - 24th overall
NE - Brady - 6th round
Now....The Who's who among NFL QBs is among that group. And yes I realize you can do that for every position in the game...but that is kind of my point.
To say you have to get your QB at the top of the draft just isn't true. Forcing it can just kill a team for 5+ years.
RE: And if you have to flip a coin because you don't see enough value Â
in this draft's QBs, then get the hell out of the #2 pick.
Improve the team across multiple positions with numerous extra picks. They should all help Eli too...no?
And if his decline becomes more of a problem and the team still cannot improve its winning %, then I guess you can hope we still pick relatively high in the draft next year.
But I would still go QB this year...
I would entertain trading down for sure. NYG is in a great spot...they are going to have multiple directions to go in.
And I want to stress again...I am not against going QB at #2. I just don't like the theory that they HAVE to go QB
The only thing I disagree with is eli won't be benched and the kid will sit the year. If Eli plays well he finishes his contract. I agree a kid shouldn't sit but that is the plan and why I don't want qb
If the Giants get off to a rough start, and given the tough first half schedule this would be quite plausible especially if we don't use our prime draft asset to help the 2018 team, the pressure to see Darnold would grow geometrically... I think you are right that the plan would be to play Eli, but as we saw last year, once the playoffs become unrealistic, I think it is likely we would see the kid...
If you want me to rate this on a 1-10 scale in terms of league comparison by position:
2017
Left Tackle = 5
Left Guard = 6
Center = 5
Right Guard = 5
Right Tackle = 2
2018
Left Tackle = 9 (Solder, not the best but very good)
Left Guard = 6 (2nd round rookie or Omameh)...this could be a 7 easily
Center = 5 (Jones again, maybe a rookie steps in)
Right Guard = 5 (Jerry again, average at best)
Right Tackle = 5 (Flowers or Wheeler, anything is better than what they had in 2017)
Hi sy. Yes I am not arguing about "improvement" I'm arguing that they won't be good. Heck I say this in fun with no malice-- it was you who got me down on Omameh when you replied to me in the past.
ANd if the OLine was so rotten then how can guys like Jones and Jerry be considered "average" when you had told me Omammeh just isn't very good without lots of help. You had said he is not very good.
Thus I think it way too optimistic to think this OL will be good. Sure it might be improved. But Omammeh, Jones, Jerry and the RT imo are not considered average in this grouping. ANd just getting one draft pick in Rd 2 won't make it a good OL either.
If your view on Omammeh needed surrounding good OL around him is correct, then that only makes Eli still sub-par. Two years ago even when he had teem he was average at best, wasn't he? ANd now he is 2 years older.
What is this, the #175th thread on this exact topic?
For Fuchs sake.
Right, because no new threads is much better than a few repetitive ones? You self proclaimed thread police are proving to be the slow motion death of this site.
You read the thread title. If you were not interested, don't click on it. WE ARE LESS THAN A WEEK FROM THE DRAFT.... This site should be full of draft threads right now. Not everyone spends all winter following the minutia of this stuff. Many people are just tuning in now, and frankly, they are probably no worse off for the decision. Why bother with the daily nonsense when they can get the full rundown around this time when info and intentions seem to come into actual focus?
If this thread is not sufficiently crafted prose for your literary taste, perhaps you can start your own thread and put us all in awe of how a real pro does it??? Link - ( New Window )
Sorry, no clue where that link came from....
Actually not sure I remember ever reading that article.
I guess my phone auto filled out the form with that link for some reason.... Good thing it wasn't something more...unique for my sake! LOL
why Rosen isn't discussed more here. I think he is the guy if NYG goes QB.
There is too much to not like when it comes to Darnold
I agree with you Sy. I understand the concussions are a cause for concern, but he appears to be the best QB, the only "NFL ready" QB in the draft (well maybe Mayfield, too).
Good list. But don't put me in the category of a poster that Â
wants to force it because that is pure horse-sh_t, and a cop on the argument of picking a QB. In my amateur view, there is enough of talent at the position to make the selection a QB this year.
If the Giants think differently, fine...but then get the hell out of that #2 pick. Because surely it is worth more to several teams and the Giants can improve their roster in a different way with multiple picks.
And then address QB in some other year.
I just prescribe to the theory that RB value is throughout the draft, and moreso than any other position...
Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Not like you can with the RB position. There’s quality starters and pro bowl caliber players drafted late at the RB position every year. This year will be no different. No one would be surprised if Guice, Michel, Chubb, Jones, Johnson, and Penny have more productive years than Barkley.
That's out of how many guys though that were taken outside of the top 10 since Brady was drafted? I don't think anyone's arguing that it's not impossible, it's just statistically far more likely to find your franchise QB atop a draft where many consider there to be 4 of them.
I do agree with your second point. I don't think they *have* to take a quarterback but if they think there's one there with the potential to be a franchise qb then they have to do it, even if they're not certain. The upside is worth the risk far more than any other position in sports.
What's your assessment of Eli at this point and what's left in the tank? I'm genuinely curious as we all have opinions but don't necessarily know what we're looking at like you do.
But I’m tired of all the QB people saying you gotta draft your QB for the next 10-15 years, how hell do we know the QB will make it that long??? Keep hearing this over and over and it’s crazy
With that attitude then how do you know that Barkley won't get one shot in the knee and be basically a shell of what he is projected to be?
I don’t disagree, but it goes both ways. Rosen, for example, hasn’t shown the ability in college to stay healthy.
And as you say it goes both ways. SO are you going to trust the longevity of a Qb or a featured RB that gets hits hit 25-40+ times a game? I'll take the guy with 2 concussions in college. Just give him a good OL.
Darnold yes, Rosen a big no!! It’s not just the concussions....
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Doesn't make any sense to pick a back up qb with the 2nd pick. Davis Webb is next in line and will be great for the Giants organization for the next 15+ years.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Pro Eli-Crowd...is that right?
Our offense was figured out in early 2016 and BM didn't do a damn thing about it. It's well documented.
RE: RE: RE: Not selecting a QB is ignoring the QB Â
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Pro Eli-Crowd...is that right?
There are plenty of arguments to refute this, but the bottom line is the new GM and HC don’t think Eli has declined. That’s really all that matters at this point.
Doesn't make any sense to pick a back up qb with the 2nd pick. Davis Webb is next in line and will be great for the Giants organization for the next 15+ years.
We are not expecting elite play from Eli without a superior cast around him.
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
We are not expecting elite play from Eli without a superior cast around him.
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
This is pretty much what I’ve said since the college season. It’s really an either/or situation — either you take the QB and strap in for a rebuild or you trade down and infuse the core areas of the roster w talent.
Unless your Kid does not beat out some 3rd round pick named Webb . Â
Seriously No one will be shocked if they take a QB , either
Schumer thinks he can develop Webb or does not .
Who knows if the Browns will not take Darnold ?
The highest ranked player in the draft is Barkley I think
they will take him or a trade down that will have to be a deal they can't pass on . I don't see the GM making any
double moves moving down then up or down twice .
They will stay in the top 5 IMO
Again will be fine with a QB but hoping for Barkley !
We are not expecting elite play from Eli without a superior cast around him.
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
This is pretty much what I’ve said since the college season. It’s really an either/or situation — either you take the QB and strap in for a rebuild or you trade down and infuse the core areas of the roster w talent.
Well, hope to infuse the team, at best. Getting a huge haul of picks from the Skins didn't exactly net the Rams a number of elite players.
it's a fallacy that what we do with the #2 pick determines Â
whether we've given Eli help. No matter who we draft at #2, the player is a rookie. It's very possible that one or more of our other picks has a bigger impact in 2018.
Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
unlike you I subscribe to the idea that the Giants must take a QB in this draft. My choice would be Rosen.
In fact I think taking a RB at #2 is malpractice and would be a tragic waste of draft equity for the Giants. This is a deep RB class, talent can be had in rounds 2-3-4... And while Barkley is a talented player I am not even certain his game translates so well to the next level - as a homerun hitter who bounces a lot of runs to the outside.
Meanwhile this is a strong QB class and we sit in great position to get arguably the best pure passer and most intelligent football mind available. If you hit on the next Rodgers or Brady it transforms the organization for a generation. It is a risk well worth taking here. I don't buy the idea that we should be afraid to miss on the qb pick that some make here. We are already in the position of banking on a qb that no longer has elite skills. eli is now a bottom half of the league qb.
I just don't understand the thinking that drives some of the folks on this site. The Patriots, the best org in the NFL, is thinking QB and they have Brady and just went to their second straight SB, but somehow the Giants shouldnt think about their QB succession because maybe we can add a RB to help Manning find glory he hasnt had in seven years. I dont think this is how great franchises sustain excellence.
Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
unlike you I subscribe to the idea that the Giants must take a QB in this draft. My choice would be Rosen.
In fact I think taking a RB at #2 is malpractice and would be a tragic waste of draft equity for the Giants. This is a deep RB class, talent can be had in rounds 2-3-4... And while Barkley is a talented player I am not even certain his game translates so well to the next level - as a homerun hitter who bounces a lot of runs to the outside.
Meanwhile this is a strong QB class and we sit in great position to get arguably the best pure passer and most intelligent football mind available. If you hit on the next Rodgers or Brady it transforms the organization for a generation. It is a risk well worth taking here. I don't buy the idea that we should be afraid to miss on the qb pick that some make here. We are already in the position of banking on a qb that no longer has elite skills. eli is now a bottom half of the league qb.
I just don't understand the thinking that drives some of the folks on this site. The Patriots, the best org in the NFL, is thinking QB and they have Brady and just went to their second straight SB, but somehow the Giants shouldnt think about their QB succession because maybe we can add a RB to help Manning find glory he hasnt had in seven years. I dont think this is how great franchises sustain excellence.
I am eager to see Sy's ratings tomorrow because as best as I can tell, there is nothing that I have seen that characterizes this as a strong quarterback class in terms of "Andrew Luck/Matt Ryan" transcendent quality. There may be many first round projected quarterbacks rated at the Mark Sanchez/Blaine Gabbert levels, but even then, there is absolutely no consensus whatsoever on any of the four. I thought Kiper and McShay were going to get into a fistfight on Friday defending their very different points of view!
In all likelihood, one won't be available to them anyway. If Barkley is the one who's there, you take him. If Darnold is there, tougher decision. If they take him, they will get very little help this year from the draft since Darnold would sit and they only have 5 more picks.
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
It's common sense folks: your franchise QB is 37 years old and will turn 38 in early January. He also has only 2 years left on his deal. It's time. You let the kid watch and learn for a year and then you cut bait with your 39 year old starter via either trade or a flat out release at the end of the 2018 season.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Common sense? Do you have $62 Million to spend on a 32 year-old OLT?
Well, that’s the age Solder will be when Darnold would most likely take the reins.
Do you think that Mara & Tisch signed Solder to man the OLT position @ $62 Mil for Eli’s waning years? Common sense?
The ownership whether we like it or not believes Eli has at least 2 years, if not more left to bring the Giants to the promised land. Mara/Tisch/Gettleman/Shurmur & Mssrs. are “ALL IN” for 2018 and beyond.
That means giving Eli all the help you can give him. It means fortifying the offensive line to try to augment the time Eli will have to scan the field while sitting in the pocket; it means giving Eli a running game; not only to complement the passing game, but to embellish it. The running game will be an important part 0f the team this year to take considerable pressure off Eli, and to augment ball control (in an attempt to give the defense a respite late in the game).
Accordingly, what this means in regards to the draft is that the Giants are likely going RB, then OG in Rd. 2 unless they trade down (due to John Dorsey selecting Barkley with #1).
Remember what George Young said (and it fits in the drafting context as well): “IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY”!
What convinces many of you that any of the”Core Four “ QBs are “Franchise-worthy”?
Several pro scouts have indicted Darnold to be at the top of this class of QBs. However, they have also cited that Darnold would have been 4th had he been drafted (after his best college season) in 2017 - after Trubisky, Watson & Mahomes. I don’t know if this is considered “Franchise”.
What do you think, Sy?
that can not be argued. But there are multiple variables that go into this:
1. Of the Qbs that remain at 2, do the Giants have a franchise grade on any?
2. How firm are their convictions on Webb being the heir apparent?
3. With this draft potentially being extremely even historically deep at the QB position, how high a grade do they have on others that can be had after #2? (Like Lauletta)
4. Do they behind closed doors truly feel Eli has a mimumum of 2-3 years left? (as theyve been saying publicly)
5. How close do they feel they are to being competitive again? (It sounds like they want to take advantage of Eli's remaining window of championship level football as Ernie Accorsi put it)
What convinces many of you that any of the”Core Four “ QBs are “Franchise-worthy”?
Several pro scouts have indicted Darnold to be at the top of this class of QBs. However, they have also cited that Darnold would have been 4th had he been drafted (after his best college season) in 2017 - after Trubisky, Watson & Mahomes. I don’t know if this is considered “Franchise”.
What do you think, Sy?
a lot of analysts, Greg Cosell included, believe this is a solid group of qb prospects and think they compare favorably to other classes. Cosell for instance favors Rosen and Mayfield over Darnold and Allen and thinks Wentz was better coming out of college but these top 2 at least are just a notch below that.
In all likelihood, one won't be available to them anyway. If Barkley is the one who's there, you take him. If Darnold is there, tougher decision. If they take him, they will get very little help this year from the draft since Darnold would sit and they only have 5 more picks.
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
the Browns are not taking Barkley. Nobody in the top 5 other than the Giants is even thinking about Barkley. To me you dint take Barkley at 2, not when we have a dire need at QB.
In all likelihood, one won't be available to them anyway. If Barkley is the one who's there, you take him. If Darnold is there, tougher decision. If they take him, they will get very little help this year from the draft since Darnold would sit and they only have 5 more picks.
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
the Browns are not taking Barkley. Nobody in the top 5 other than the Giants is even thinking about Barkley. To me you dint take Barkley at 2, not when we have a dire need at QB.
QBs are the most important asset that can not be argued. But there are multiple variables that go into this (in rough order of importance):
1. Of the Qbs that remain at 2, do the Giants have a franchise grade on any?
2. How firm are their convictions on Webb being the heir apparent?
3. With this draft potentially being extremely even historically deep at the QB position, how high a grade do they have on others that can be had after #2? (Like Lauletta)
4. Do they behind closed doors truly feel Eli has a mimumum of 2-3 years left? (as theyve been saying publicly)
5. How close do they feel they are to being competitive again? (It sounds like they want to take advantage of Eli's remaining window of championship level football as Ernie Accorsi put it)
Doesn't make any sense to pick a back up qb with the 2nd pick. Davis Webb is next in line and will be great for the Giants organization for the next 15+ years.
is simply not based on reality. There is no choice between QB and RB for the Giants. The reason, the Browns pick first. Hence, if they take one, your choice is effectively made. Rosen might be good, but he carries the bong of an injury history. So Darnold or Barkley, Cleveland will make the choice for the Giants. That is just the nature of the draft in many cases, the later choices are limited by the choices made earlier by other teams.
What is this, the #175th thread on this exact topic?
For Fuchs sake.
My favorite player in the draft is Nelson but they won't take him at 2.
I'll be stoked if they take Barkley and happy with Darnold.
Can't wait for Thursday
What is this, the #175th thread on this exact topic?
For Fuchs sake.
Then why open the thread (for fuchs sake)?
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
But I have been saying this all off-season... second pick.. two-man draft board.. Darnold is 1A, Barkley is 1B... we are getting one of these guys on Thursday night if I were GM... if they both are on the board at 2? I take Darnold without hesitation.. that said I’d bet my house that Cleveland drafts Darnold first overall... not buying this Josh Allen number one overall bullshit
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Actually Strahan went out on his best terms. Like Koufax, he left at the pinnacle . LT went out floundering in the sand at Candlestick . Everything else you wrote is the best piece this year . Easily .
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Perfect post, Optimus. Even if Barkley turns out to be a stud, who is going to be QBing this team in a couple years? What if Eli's decline is real, and he is not good THIS year? We'll look like our team with Tiki but we won't be grooming a young QB. Remember those years?
We just suffered through a 3-13 season, and we have a chance to draft a franchise QB. The Colts had to make a tough decision, and they cut Peyton Manning and drafted Luck. Yes, Peyton was coming off a neck injury, and Luck is a better prospect than these guys, but you don't bypass the chance to draft a franchise QB for a RB. Many of the best RBs - David Johnson, LeVeon Bell, Kareem Hunt, Alvin Kamara, LeSean McCoy, etc. - were drafted after 1st round. You do not need to spend a top 2 pick on a RB to get great value at the RB position. It's been proven time and time again.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
I witnessed the Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Danny Kannel years and remember how awful they were. We wasted some damn good defenses back then. That being said, no one knows how good any of these QB’s really are. I wouldn’t call any of them a “sure” thing, not that there even is such a thing. That being said, if you are a person that thinks Eli has a few years left, which I happen to be, you typically lean Barkley or Chubb or Nelson. If you think Eli is toast, then you gamble on a QB. It’s that simple.
Gettleman has his chance to achieve greatness for this organization , which sadly has lost its way. I give him support but not blind loyalty . And if he fucks this one up, he’s going to be hearing about it .
I agree, but if its common sense then why no consensus on BBI? Lack of common sense by guys like you & me or BBI...?
It is not smart team building to bank on your 37 year old QB to have a rebound season. You also make it seem like if we pass on Barkley there is no way we can get a RB later in the draft that can help the offense. I just don't get it. If we don't pick a QB here, and Eli is really finished, we will either: a) have to suck badly enough to be in a position to pick a franchise QB soon; or b) trade a boatload of picks to move up to get one, much like Buffalo is trying to do (possibly with no success).
What then? The worst place you can be in football is without a franchise QB. Plain and simple. Even if you think Eli can play for two more years, it is still smart to hedge your bet and pick a young QB you can build around for after he is gone. It's just the way you build a team. You don't build a team by picking a RB with the second overall pick.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Using Joe Montana as your example backfires. Your so-called "greatest QB who ever lived" was picked with the last pick in the 3rd round. Meanwhile, the 3rd overall pick that same year was another QB named Jack Thompson who was put in your perfect situation - he had a chance to sit and learn behind veteran Ken Anderson. Did this turn out better for the Bengals who followed "you always draft a QB" at the top of the draft philosophy?
It is not smart team building to bank on your 37 year old QB to have a rebound season. You also make it seem like if we pass on Barkley there is no way we can get a RB later in the draft that can help the offense. I just don't get it. If we don't pick a QB here, and Eli is really finished, we will either: a) have to suck badly enough to be in a position to pick a franchise QB soon; or b) trade a boatload of picks to move up to get one, much like Buffalo is trying to do (possibly with no success).
What then? The worst place you can be in football is without a franchise QB. Plain and simple. Even if you think Eli can play for two more years, it is still smart to hedge your bet and pick a young QB you can build around for after he is gone. It's just the way you build a team. You don't build a team by picking a RB with the second overall pick.
As i said in the other thread, In theory, a franchise QB is the way to go. But what if the Giants are not vested in any of these supposed top QBs? What if they think Webb is or will be the heir-apparent to Eli? Or that there’s a future QB in the later rounds? Doesn’t matter what WE want, it’s what the Giants have assessed.
As to the Shurmur “waste,” he did get very good mileage out of Keenum and Foles before that.
Taking the highest rated player in the ENTIRE draft at 2 (Barkley) is by no means a dumb move, especially given that he’s an every down player that, combined with the receiver talent, will benefit, Eli, the O in general and a rested D that will be called upon to come up big late in games
Selecting a RB at #2 with that 37-year old starting QB coming off several obvious seasons of decline is egregious...
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What happens if Eli's decline is real, which is what many players around the league said? What then? We have no QB, unless Webb bucks the trend and becomes a franchise QB from beyond the 1st round. If he doesn't, we are screwed.
It is not smart team building to bank on your 37 year old QB to have a rebound season. You also make it seem like if we pass on Barkley there is no way we can get a RB later in the draft that can help the offense. I just don't get it. If we don't pick a QB here, and Eli is really finished, we will either: a) have to suck badly enough to be in a position to pick a franchise QB soon; or b) trade a boatload of picks to move up to get one, much like Buffalo is trying to do (possibly with no success).
What then? The worst place you can be in football is without a franchise QB. Plain and simple. Even if you think Eli can play for two more years, it is still smart to hedge your bet and pick a young QB you can build around for after he is gone. It's just the way you build a team. You don't build a team by picking a RB with the second overall pick.
As i said in the other thread, In theory, a franchise QB is the way to go. But what if the Giants are not vested in any of these supposed top QBs? What if they think Webb is or will be the heir-apparent to Eli? Or that there’s a future QB in the later rounds? Doesn’t matter what WE want, it’s what the Giants have assessed.
As to the Shurmur “waste,” he did get very good mileage out of Keenum and Foles before that.
Taking the highest rated player in the ENTIRE draft at 2 (Barkley) is by no means a dumb move, especially given that he’s an every down player that, combined with the receiver talent, will benefit, Eli, the O in general and a rested D that will be called upon to come up big late in games
Just look at the GBN study on the use of top 3 picks over the past 10 years. Almost all of them have been used on QBs, LTs, and DEs. Exactly 1 - ONE - has been used on a RB. That RB - Trent Richardson - was a colossal bust. I'm not saying Barkley will be a bust. I'm just saying there is a reason that teams don't use top picks on RBs.
I'm sure you'll retort that two teams used the 4 pick on RBs. GBN said even expanding its study to the top 10 picks, QBs, LTs, and DEs are overrepresented while RBs (amongst others) are underrepresented in the top 10.
Let's put it this way: who would the Rams give up if forced to give up one: Goff or Gurley? They'd give up Gurley in a heartbeat. No question. And other than his first couple games, Gurley really, really struggled without Goff on the field. (And until McCoy came and revamped that system.) Nonetheless, you need a young QB to groom, and there is nothing to suggest Webb is that guy. When asked about Webb in his initial press conference, Shurmur said they had him as a draftable prospect. Not exactly glowing praise.
Probably should be RB/WR Barkley.
Selecting a RB at #2 with that 37-year old starting QB coming off several obvious seasons of decline is egregious...
Agreed completely.
Eric has warned about this since Gettlemen was a candidate for Reese's job. I was actually optimistic. I didn't think Gettlemen was dumb enough to believe this team can win a super bowl in the next two years after flipping on Eli's games from the past two seasons and taking a look at the roster. When they traded for Ogletree I rolled my eyes at the media criticizing them for trying to win now since he's 26. When they traded JPP I was excited because it meant I was right about the Giants not actually being this stupid. The Ogletree trade I thought was indicative of nothing, Stewart was signed to help turn around the locker room for a year, and Solder they believe can start at LT into his mid-30's.
As we've drawn closer to the draft, every indication out there suggests that they're taking a running back at #2 overall and really are gearing up for 1 more run. I'm still very hopeful that that's wrong but if that is what comes to fruition, I'll finally admit that Eric was right and the media is spot on. With the Browns seemingly turning things around under Dorsey, the Jets making intelligent moves the past couple of off-seasons, you'd be hard pressed to find an organization as poorly run as the Giants in the league right now IF they really are as stupid as it seems.
I'm in the QB with the first round pick boat -- unless the Giants really don't think that the player available to be picked is a franchise QB. I personally don't think that's possible bc I think both Darnold and Rosen are, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants really only like one of them.
That said, if the Giants don't believe that the QB available to them is a franchise QB, and if they don't trade down, then the only player I'd consider with the #2 pick is Barkley. I have my doubts about how good he'll ultimately be -- I'm worried by his lack of inside running prowess -- but in terms of talent, I think he's the only non-QB super blue chip talent. Maybe Nelson, but you just can't select a guard with your first #2 overall pick in 30 years. And as good as he may look, there's no such thing as a can't miss prospect, not even at guard. I don't put Chubb in that group. I think Chubb will be solid, but he's not in the same category as Miles Garrett, Kalil Mack, Von Miller, Joey Bosa.
Selecting a RB at #2 with that 37-year old starting QB coming off several obvious seasons of decline is egregious...
I’m not saying Eli hasn’t declined at all, it’s natural to decline over time however I wouldn’t say the decline is obvious. He’s been playing in an offense which frankly doesn’t match his skill set, and he is a play action QB with a line and running game that no one has feared in several years. It’s impossible to accurately judge him in that shitty of a landscape. To me Eli was the least of their problems offensively the last few years, but the QB always gets the blame. He’s not the type to throw his line and coaching staff under the bus, so he has acted as the whipping boy for quite some time now.
What is this, the #175th thread on this exact topic?
For Fuchs sake.
Its a message board. Lighten up and just dont read it.
Tell that to the Packers. Just 3 losing seasons since Favre's first full season in 1992. One was this past year which wouldn't have been one if Rodgers didn't go down.
I seriously have no idea how to say this differently. I don't care if they think Eli can play. That's fine. They have to acknowledge that at 37, he may not be around that much longer. They also have to acknowledge the fact that maybe, just maybe, he has already started to decline, and his poor play from the past two years is a mirage.
Gettleman acknowledged this in his press conference. He said he has to balance the long term with the short term. When you have a 37 year old QB - especially one who unequivocally has played poorly the past few seasons - you absolutely have to pick a young QB. Eli is not 27 now. He's 37. You're not deciding whether to replace him for poor play; you're deciding whether to replace him due to old age (and poor play). Webb does not factor into this equation. When picking at 2, you don't pick a RB; you pick a QB to groom behind Eli. No one, absolutely no one, will care if the guy sits for two years if you find the next Rodgers. Oh, and guess what? If Eli really is bad - then his career with the Giants is over after next year, and he'll likely be benched midseason, particularly now that his streak is over.
Whether the Giants think Eli can still play and drafting a young QB to groom at 2 are not mutually exclusive. You can still get other people in later rounds to help now. They also got guys to help on the line in FA. They addressed needs in FA to help now. Now, you address the long term QB need in the draft at 2.
Not disagreeing with you, but where would the Giants be if they had stuck with Kerry Collins and drafting someone like Sean Taylor or Kellen Winslow Jr. instead of moving up and getting Eli Manning?
And that's the point of all this. They identified that Collins was not good enough to win a SB. Eli is nearing the end and is likely not good enough to win (or won't be soon). You'd think Gettleman knows this. And remember, when the Giants drafted Eli, they signed Warner and did not start Eli immediately. It was not until the middle of the next season that they started Eli.
Also, I don't think Eli's play is going to warrant sitting a kid two years. I'll be pleasantly surprised if that happens. Frankly, I think Eli is going to struggle next year, and the kid is going to replace Eli midseason. I think this is Eli's last season in NY.
I personally would love to trade down to 4-5 range and pick up Mayfield and some other picks.
The best player in college football was Baker Mayfield. PFF has him as the highest rated QB they have ever rated in college (I think that's what I read)... I think he's the perfect guy to sit and mature behind Eli a year or two.
It's a crap shoot. There is some great RB talent in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
Lonk - ( New Window )
I personally would love to trade down to 4-5 range and pick up Mayfield and some other picks.
The best player in college football was Baker Mayfield. PFF has him as the highest rated QB they have ever rated in college (I think that's what I read)... I think he's the perfect guy to sit and mature behind Eli a year or two.
It's a crap shoot. There is some great RB talent in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Lonk - ( New Window )
Unless Darnold is sitting there at 3, Mayfield appears to be as close to a lock as one can be before the draft to go to the Jets there
And for those who don't want a QB now - just when do you think you'll get one and for how much? What are the chances the Giants are a top 3 pick next year? And next years QBs are not so good.
And to jtgiants, no QBs do not have to play right away. Especially Darnold, who is totally incapable of starting an NFL game at this moment. Only two QBs in this draft could be competent starting this year, Rosen and Mayfield.(IMV of course).
However, if Cleveland doesn't take Barkley, I think that is who Gettleman takes.
I don’t see Darnold as a legitimate franchise QB.
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A few weeks ago I thought it was a sure fire thing that the Giants go QB. Now I'm not so sure. The media has zero idea what DG is going to do. That's a fact.
I personally would love to trade down to 4-5 range and pick up Mayfield and some other picks.
The best player in college football was Baker Mayfield. PFF has him as the highest rated QB they have ever rated in college (I think that's what I read)... I think he's the perfect guy to sit and mature behind Eli a year or two.
It's a crap shoot. There is some great RB talent in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Lonk - ( New Window )
Unless Darnold is sitting there at 3, Mayfield appears to be as close to a lock as one can be before the draft to go to the Jets there
Thursday night should be fun. The media seems to think the Browns will go Josh Allen at #1. That would leave Rosen, Darnold and Mayfield there for the picking.
I really think DG goes QB here. Which do they like the most? We shall see Thursday night.
JT: I think we both respect each other's opinions; we're adults here. I think - and hope - that while that Giants may think Eli can still play, they have to have some reservations that maybe, just maybe, he is really declining. They must have gone through the games and watched some of throws and thought, this is not just the scheme. Or this is not just the line. And maybe they think Shurmur can fix some of that; after all, he worked magic with Keenum last season. But somewhere in there, I have to believe they are worried that Eli has reached the end, even if they won't publicly admit it (which would be the exact wrong thing to do).
On Thursday, we'll see which way they intend to go. But if they pick an RB, they are unquestionably setting this franchise up for a long time in QB hell when Eli is finished, whether that be this season, next season, or in three years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R7FUzc3rlE
And here is why no Darnold: Heck why you'd take Mayfield over Darnold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvwdhaKrKVE
Could be MORE THAN 2 years for Eli with Barkley, our receivers and an improved OL in tow. Of course, if his happy feet stemming from no running game a porous OL and injuries remain present, he may not even have 2 years
IF ELI PLAYS WELL. And it's not awful management because in year 3 and year 4, you'll have unbelievable savings with a great QB, if you hit. And if you hit, you'll have your QB for the next 10-15 years, which is what you want anyway.
I agree with you 100%. No way they turn away from Eli if he has a halfway decent year this year. And frankly they shouldn’t. The guy just turned 37, the way the rules protect QB’s now you are going to see a lot of guys playing until they are 40. I mean that was unheard of years ago. Now you have Brees, Brady, etc still out there in their 40’s. I understand the panic by some that we need a QB, but we still have one that is capable of winning. If you had a guy like Andrew Luck sitting there I would say you absolutely go QB, but none of these guys really jumps off the page as being some amazing prospect.
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Fair enough. We disagree on eli. If you're wrong on eli will you b ok with a kid sitting 2 years? If the answer is yes ok fine. No issue. I disagree and wouldn't be ok w that. That said I respect your opinion. Gettleman can't win Thursday. No matter what he does many won't agree
JT: I think we both respect each other's opinions; we're adults here. I think - and hope - that while that Giants may think Eli can still play, they have to have some reservations that maybe, just maybe, he is really declining. They must have gone through the games and watched some of throws and thought, this is not just the scheme. Or this is not just the line. And maybe they think Shurmur can fix some of that; after all, he worked magic with Keenum last season. But somewhere in there, I have to believe they are worried that Eli has reached the end, even if they won't publicly admit it (which would be the exact wrong thing to do).
On Thursday, we'll see which way they intend to go. But if they pick an RB, they are unquestionably setting this franchise up for a long time in QB hell when Eli is finished, whether that be this season, next season, or in three years.
I understand your line of thinking, but none of these guys is a can’t miss prospect from the outset this year. Passing on a blue chip player at another position to draft one of them could also put us in QB hell a few years from now if they don’t pan out. This is what Gettleman was referring to the other day when he said taking the wrong QB this high sets you back five years.
I don't know what they're doing with Webb. But Gettleman's press conference suggested that Webb is not going to play much of a role into their decision making with the second overall pick. Could that be a lie? Sure. But I don't buy that a different coach and GM have any allegiance to Webb or that the third round pick from a year ago from a regime they don't trust will impact their pick this time around.
I don't have inside sources, so I could be wrong. Maybe it's just hopeful thinking on my part. But I will be livid if they do not select a QB with the second overall pick on Thursday.
Watson, these are my feelings. I want one of these two players and logic says the QB (but not the heart). Since I am clueless, I will leave it to Gettleman and trust his choice.
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In comment 13924096 jtgiants said:
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Fair enough. We disagree on eli. If you're wrong on eli will you b ok with a kid sitting 2 years? If the answer is yes ok fine. No issue. I disagree and wouldn't be ok w that. That said I respect your opinion. Gettleman can't win Thursday. No matter what he does many won't agree
JT: I think we both respect each other's opinions; we're adults here. I think - and hope - that while that Giants may think Eli can still play, they have to have some reservations that maybe, just maybe, he is really declining. They must have gone through the games and watched some of throws and thought, this is not just the scheme. Or this is not just the line. And maybe they think Shurmur can fix some of that; after all, he worked magic with Keenum last season. But somewhere in there, I have to believe they are worried that Eli has reached the end, even if they won't publicly admit it (which would be the exact wrong thing to do).
On Thursday, we'll see which way they intend to go. But if they pick an RB, they are unquestionably setting this franchise up for a long time in QB hell when Eli is finished, whether that be this season, next season, or in three years.
I understand your line of thinking, but none of these guys is a can’t miss prospect from the outset this year. Passing on a blue chip player at another position to draft one of them could also put us in QB hell a few years from now if they don’t pan out. This is what Gettleman was referring to the other day when he said taking the wrong QB this high sets you back five years.
You did listen when he said that if you ask the right questions you find the answers in response to the picking the wrong QB. You think it's better if we pick Barkley at 2 and he busts? Greg Robinson and Robert Gallery were thought to be can't miss tackles at 2 overall, and they busted. If you miss at any position at 2 overall, it messes you up badly.
And good QBs very, very rarely hit the open market. Brees, Jimmy G., Cousins (who I don't think is that good) are the exception. So if you hope to get a franchise QB, you're pretty much going to have to take one, and they typically get taken in the top 5. So at some point the Giants are more than likely going to have to spend a high 1st round pick to get their next franchise QB. Gettleman knows that. He knows that at some point he will have to draft a QB. Next time they need a QB is he going to pass on one because he says drafting the wrong QB messes up a team for years? I mean, with that philosophy, you'll basically never draft a QB again, and that makes it supremely difficult to land a young, franchise QB.
What is this, the #175th thread on this exact topic?
For Fuchs sake.
Right, because no new threads is much better than a few repetitive ones? You self proclaimed thread police are proving to be the slow motion death of this site.
You read the thread title. If you were not interested, don't click on it. WE ARE LESS THAN A WEEK FROM THE DRAFT.... This site should be full of draft threads right now. Not everyone spends all winter following the minutia of this stuff. Many people are just tuning in now, and frankly, they are probably no worse off for the decision. Why bother with the daily nonsense when they can get the full rundown around this time when info and intentions seem to come into actual focus?
If this thread is not sufficiently crafted prose for your literary taste, perhaps you can start your own thread and put us all in awe of how a real pro does it???
Link - ( New Window )
It’s really THAT simple
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In comment 13924104 Giants34 said:
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In comment 13924096 jtgiants said:
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Fair enough. We disagree on eli. If you're wrong on eli will you b ok with a kid sitting 2 years? If the answer is yes ok fine. No issue. I disagree and wouldn't be ok w that. That said I respect your opinion. Gettleman can't win Thursday. No matter what he does many won't agree
JT: I think we both respect each other's opinions; we're adults here. I think - and hope - that while that Giants may think Eli can still play, they have to have some reservations that maybe, just maybe, he is really declining. They must have gone through the games and watched some of throws and thought, this is not just the scheme. Or this is not just the line. And maybe they think Shurmur can fix some of that; after all, he worked magic with Keenum last season. But somewhere in there, I have to believe they are worried that Eli has reached the end, even if they won't publicly admit it (which would be the exact wrong thing to do).
On Thursday, we'll see which way they intend to go. But if they pick an RB, they are unquestionably setting this franchise up for a long time in QB hell when Eli is finished, whether that be this season, next season, or in three years.
I understand your line of thinking, but none of these guys is a can’t miss prospect from the outset this year. Passing on a blue chip player at another position to draft one of them could also put us in QB hell a few years from now if they don’t pan out. This is what Gettleman was referring to the other day when he said taking the wrong QB this high sets you back five years.
You did listen when he said that if you ask the right questions you find the answers in response to the picking the wrong QB. You think it's better if we pick Barkley at 2 and he busts? Greg Robinson and Robert Gallery were thought to be can't miss tackles at 2 overall, and they busted. If you miss at any position at 2 overall, it messes you up badly.
And good QBs very, very rarely hit the open market. Brees, Jimmy G., Cousins (who I don't think is that good) are the exception. So if you hope to get a franchise QB, you're pretty much going to have to take one, and they typically get taken in the top 5. So at some point the Giants are more than likely going to have to spend a high 1st round pick to get their next franchise QB. Gettleman knows that. He knows that at some point he will have to draft a QB. Next time they need a QB is he going to pass on one because he says drafting the wrong QB messes up a team for years? I mean, with that philosophy, you'll basically never draft a QB again, and that makes it supremely difficult to land a young, franchise QB.
Agreed, any player can be a bust, and at 2 it sucks if that happens. I personally don’t feel that strongly about any of these QB’s, which is why I don’t feel that we are necessarily screwed if we don’t take one of them. And there have been seemingly more and more QB’s coming from outside the top 5 in recent years. Rodgers, Garropolo, Watson, Wilson, Prescott, Cousins, Brees, Brady, none of those guys were top 5 picks and are either entrenched stars or rising stars at this point. For all of the great QB’s taken early, there are a lot of busts as well.
I indicated my first statement was debatable. Disagreeing with the other two points is actually what makes no sense...
Too stubborn to respond to my posts? They will NOT take a QB if they DO NOT view any of them as a franchise-maker, so taking a QB just because you want one, is not going to happen. Period. Exclamation point.
If they like the QBs, they WILL take one, also period, exclamation.
You take a QB when you have a chance (has to be top quality, no reaching) when your starting QB is 37. Does not matter if he sits one or two years. If ELi was 34, I'd agree no QB. But Eli is 37 and has not been very good for two years, at least. He can be reasonably cut in 2019.
But, in all honesty, while I'd prefer a QB, if Gettleman goes Barkley, I don't care. Not really a Chubb fan at #2.
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I think no matter what, a GM gets criticized with their draft pick. And, yes, I think Gettleman will get criticized for this pick on Thursday. However, normally I am ok going in one direction or another. If we had a QB, I could see Barkley or Chubb or Nelson. Not that I would agree with any of those guys, but I could see the argument for any, and I'd ultimately live with it. Here, I just can't see the argument for anyone other than a QB, because it simply makes no sense to me.
Too stubborn to respond to my posts? They will NOT take a QB if they DO NOT view any of them as a franchise-maker, so taking a QB just because you want one, is not going to happen. Period. Exclamation point.
If they like the QBs, they WILL take one, also period, exclamation.
Exactly. I think the hesitancy from many on this board in regard to taking a QB is that there isn’t really a “near perfect” prospect in this class. Every one of the top 4 could honestly be a bust, there are traits with each one that could be career killers. Rosen with the frailty, Darnold and the turnovers, Mayfield’s height/attitude, Allen’s accuracy. If Andrew Luck was sitting there (not the injured version), there would be almost no debate over who they should take this year. But that QB prospect is not sitting there this year. These guys could be amazing, but to me here is huge bust potential in this group.
There is too much to not like when it comes to Darnold
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
If not, then Barkley as Eli will play for another 4 years as long as the Giants still want him
Darnold is not that accurate of a passer. Ourlads has ranked as their 3rd QB behind Mayfield and Rosen.
Darnold makes poor descisions, and not very accurate. Footwork not good.
Take either Rosen or Mayfield.
I would prefer to not get Darnold.
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Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
It’s not just Barkley. This draft has some serious talent at non QB positions, at least on paper. Many are saying Chubb is the best DE to come out in the last five years, Barkley the best RB in ten. Not to mention Quentin Nelson who ex offensive lineman just rave about. I think the perceived skill level at other positions is higher than what we see in many drafts which makes taking a QB who has some serious concerns more difficult to stomach for many of us.
There is too much to not like when it comes to Darnold
We discuss Rosen a good bit. In fact, he was the winner in several selection polls on BBI. I would take him.
Maybe what you are referring to is a small select group of posters that continually bang the drum on other guys too much...
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Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Yet, continually starting an aging QB with serious concerns is okay to stomach?
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In comment 13924100 jtgiants said:
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Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Not when you have a quickly growing need at QB on your hands...
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I think the perceived skill level at other positions is higher than what we see in many drafts which makes taking a QB who has some serious concerns more difficult to stomach for many of us.
Yet, continually starting an aging QB with serious concerns is okay to stomach?
I don’t have many concerns about Eli. I feel that an improved line and a running game would make a world of difference. Drew Brees has declined as well, but having a running game sure made a difference for him and his team last year.
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In comment 13924157 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 13924100 jtgiants said:
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Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Not when you have a quickly growing need at QB on your hands...
You can win with Eli Manning. But the surrounding pieces need to be better, plain and simple.
I am NOT saying ignore QB...it is literally a coin flip for me right now...but the QB has to grade out well enough. Forcing it there while looking past the best RB prospect in a long time is foolish.
NYG is committed to Eli Manning for another year or two, it makes a lot of sense to make the team around him better.
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In comment 13924163 eric2425ny said:
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I think the perceived skill level at other positions is higher than what we see in many drafts which makes taking a QB who has some serious concerns more difficult to stomach for many of us.
Yet, continually starting an aging QB with serious concerns is okay to stomach?
I don’t have many concerns about Eli. I feel that an improved line and a running game would make a world of difference. Drew Brees has declined as well, but having a running game sure made a difference for him and his team last year.
Brees threw for more yards and more touchdowns two years ago than Eli has in any season over the course of his career. The team wasn't as good as last year but they still won 7 games with Brees carrying them on his shoulders. I love Eli but he was never in Brees' league. Eli was never a top 3 quarterback in the NFL aside from arguably one season. Brees always was. He's declining from a much higher perch than Eli is.
With that attitude then how do you know that Barkley won't get one shot in the knee and be basically a shell of what he is projected to be?
And to a lesser extent to Eli...
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In comment 13924168 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 13924157 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 13924100 jtgiants said:
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Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Not when you have a quickly growing need at QB on your hands...
You can win with Eli Manning. But the surrounding pieces need to be better, plain and simple.
I am NOT saying ignore QB...it is literally a coin flip for me right now...but the QB has to grade out well enough. Forcing it there while looking past the best RB prospect in a long time is foolish.
NYG is committed to Eli Manning for another year or two, it makes a lot of sense to make the team around him better.
You can make the team better while also drafting a QB in Rd 1.
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In comment 13924169 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 13924163 eric2425ny said:
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I think the perceived skill level at other positions is higher than what we see in many drafts which makes taking a QB who has some serious concerns more difficult to stomach for many of us.
Yet, continually starting an aging QB with serious concerns is okay to stomach?
I don’t have many concerns about Eli. I feel that an improved line and a running game would make a world of difference. Drew Brees has declined as well, but having a running game sure made a difference for him and his team last year.
Brees threw for more yards and more touchdowns two years ago than Eli has in any season over the course of his career. The team wasn't as good as last year but they still won 7 games with Brees carrying them on his shoulders. I love Eli but he was never in Brees' league. Eli was never a top 3 quarterback in the NFL aside from arguably one season. Brees always was. He's declining from a much higher perch than Eli is.
Not really comparing Eli to Brees. I’m saying that the running game made the Saints a better team and allowed the burden to fall on someone other than Brees. I think Barkley and a few more oline pieces could have the same impact on the Giants this year. Did anyone expect the Saints to be as good as they were last year? Doubt it, things change quickly in today’s NFL.
There is too much to not like when it comes to Darnold
I agree, I think Darnold has too much bust potential for my liking
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
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But I’m tired of all the QB people saying you gotta draft your QB for the next 10-15 years, how hell do we know the QB will make it that long??? Keep hearing this over and over and it’s crazy
With that attitude then how do you know that Barkley won't get one shot in the knee and be basically a shell of what he is projected to be?
I don’t disagree, but it goes both ways. Rosen, for example, hasn’t shown the ability in college to stay healthy.
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
If they aren’t sold on the guys this year, you would be better off waiting and trading up if you like a guy in a future year rather than force one now.
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
Well you can't fill every hole in an offseason, and you certainly can't fill every hole and future holes in an offseason.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
OL should be very much improved with a new LT and hopefully a new interior guy from round 2. The backfield can be enormously better with Barkley. And the WR core should be improved as a result of health. New defensive scheme with some tweaks to personnel on all levels..this team can contend.
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In comment 13924164 OBJRoyal said:
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But I’m tired of all the QB people saying you gotta draft your QB for the next 10-15 years, how hell do we know the QB will make it that long??? Keep hearing this over and over and it’s crazy
With that attitude then how do you know that Barkley won't get one shot in the knee and be basically a shell of what he is projected to be?
I don’t disagree, but it goes both ways. Rosen, for example, hasn’t shown the ability in college to stay healthy.
And as you say it goes both ways. SO are you going to trust the longevity of a Qb or a featured RB that gets hits hit 25-40+ times a game? I'll take the guy with 2 concussions in college. Just give him a good OL.
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Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
Well you can't fill every hole in an offseason, and you certainly can't fill every hole and future holes in an offseason.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
OL should be very much improved with a new LT and hopefully a new interior guy from round 2. The backfield can be enormously better with Barkley. And the WR core should be improved as a result of health. New defensive scheme with some tweaks to personnel on all levels..this team can contend.
Best post of the entire thread.
1. Many want a qb
2. Many want Barkley
3. Many want Chubb
4. Many want trade down
Most here won't be happy if it doesn't go there way. People don't even agree on the teams goals. Many think they want to win now. Many feel that's impossible. This draft is clearly the most polarizing draft in a long time
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Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
If they aren’t sold on the guys this year, you would be better off waiting and trading up if you like a guy in a future year rather than force one now.
No disrespect...but no shit. Its my view there is enough QB value in this draft and enough declining value at the position on the current roster to "get sold".
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Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
Well you can't fill every hole in an offseason, and you certainly can't fill every hole and future holes in an offseason.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
OL should be very much improved with a new LT and hopefully a new interior guy from round 2. The backfield can be enormously better with Barkley. And the WR core should be improved as a result of health. New defensive scheme with some tweaks to personnel on all levels..this team can contend.
How much si the Oline going to be better?
Didn't you say the guard Omameh isn't very good? I think you went on to sya he needs good surrounding OLinemen. Yet isn't Jones just "average?"
And even if the Giants get a 2nd Rd OL guard, there is no assurance in year he will be good. And then add in the situation at RT.
SO when you say "The OL" should be "much improved"- we have to take that into context right? It sill be highly unlikely they are good, right?
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In comment 13924187 Jimmy Googs said:
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Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
If they aren’t sold on the guys this year, you would be better off waiting and trading up if you like a guy in a future year rather than force one now.
No disrespect...but no shit. Its my view there is enough QB value in this draft and enough declining value at the position on the current roster to "get sold".
And I feel the exact opposite about this years QB’s. Agree to disagree.
1. Many want a qb
2. Many want Barkley
3. Many want Chubb
4. Many want trade down
Most here won't be happy if it doesn't go there way. People don't even agree on the teams goals. Many think they want to win now. Many feel that's impossible. This draft is clearly the most polarizing draft in a long time
Both can be true, the organization can want to win now and it can also be impossible :). That's where I'm at
1. Many want a qb
2. Many want Barkley
3. Many want Chubb
4. Many want trade down
Most here won't be happy if it doesn't go there way. People don't even agree on the teams goals. Many think they want to win now. Many feel that's impossible. This draft is clearly the most polarizing draft in a long time
I think we should go QB.
But I'm confused why you think so many that have opposing views is relevant. So what?
If the Giants don't go QB-- we just have to believe they are right/ have a plan that will work.
I have been steadfast in my support of Eli mainly because it is the only path to a championship in the next two years. I believe that his mediocre play these past six years is due to the lack of supporting talent, abysmal coaching and an offensive scheme that has been misaligned with his talent. With Barkley, a solid draft and the recent additions through free agency and trades, I am confident we will see a resurgence from Eli and a return to playoff form immediately. And if we do make the playoffs, I wouldn't bet against Eli vs any quarterback in the league - ever.
If you don't believe in Eli, I get it. He has made you very frustrated in recent years and you want a new era of offense characterized by a more mobile "Aaron Rodgers-esque" quarterback talent. Maybe Darnold is that guy. But here's the thing. The likelihood that a new quarterback leads a team like the Giants quickly to a championship is very low. Can it happen quickly? Yes - Roethlisberger and Brady did it in their first year as a starter. But they are truly exceptions. The median of the four top first round quarterback draft picks in the last 35 years - Elway, Aikman, Peyton and Eli Manning - is six years. Andrew Luck, the very best quarterback drafted in the 21st century, is 3-3 in the playoffs and I am not sure that he will ever win a championship. And if Darnold is a bust, forget it. You can add five years on top of the six... as Gettleman stated on Thursday.
If Gettleman does draft Darnold, then he is essentially announcing that he does not believe that the Giants can win now with Eli. Yes, he will utter lots of politically correct statements saying he is just being prudent. But the whispers will start to grow and, like Eli himself in 2004, Darnold will be the starter just after the bye on Monday night November 12, 2018 against the 49ers facing Garoppolo. It will be high drama. And Garoppolo will demonstrate that he is far ahead of Darnold. But this will be as it should be - you can't have a top ten quarterback sit anymore. Eli himself proved that and it is true. He needs to begin truly learning the position and the only way to do that is to be on the field asap.
I guess the truth for me is, waiting another six to ten years before we win another Lombardi trophy is just not acceptable for me... I do think we have the talent with a few additional pieces to compete in the next two years so I choose to believe in Eli...
We will know soon enough what Gettleman believes.
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Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
Well you can't fill every hole in an offseason, and you certainly can't fill every hole and future holes in an offseason.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
OL should be very much improved with a new LT and hopefully a new interior guy from round 2. The backfield can be enormously better with Barkley. And the WR core should be improved as a result of health. New defensive scheme with some tweaks to personnel on all levels..this team can contend.
Fair, but I could say almost the same thing with putting a Michel, Jones or Guice back there and an interior guy in Rd 3, AND I wouldn't have to mortgage the future for a QB in a future draft.
2017
Left Tackle = 5
Left Guard = 6
Center = 5
Right Guard = 5
Right Tackle = 2
2018
Left Tackle = 9 (Solder, not the best but very good)
Left Guard = 6 (2nd round rookie or Omameh)...this could be a 7 easily
Center = 5 (Jones again, maybe a rookie steps in)
Right Guard = 5 (Jerry again, average at best)
Right Tackle = 5 (Flowers or Wheeler, anything is better than what they had in 2017)
I have been steadfast in my support of Eli mainly because it is the only path to a championship in the next two years. I believe that his mediocre play these past six years is due to the lack of supporting talent, abysmal coaching and an offensive scheme that has been misaligned with his talent. With Barkley, a solid draft and the recent additions through free agency and trades, I am confident we will see a resurgence from Eli and a return to playoff form immediately. And if we do make the playoffs, I wouldn't bet against Eli vs any quarterback in the league - ever.
If you don't believe in Eli, I get it. He has made you very frustrated in recent years and you want a new era of offense characterized by a more mobile "Aaron Rodgers-esque" quarterback talent. Maybe Darnold is that guy. But here's the thing. The likelihood that a new quarterback leads a team like the Giants quickly to a championship is very low. Can it happen quickly? Yes - Roethlisberger and Brady did it in their first year as a starter. But they are truly exceptions. The median of the four top first round quarterback draft picks in the last 35 years - Elway, Aikman, Peyton and Eli Manning - is six years. Andrew Luck, the very best quarterback drafted in the 21st century, is 3-3 in the playoffs and I am not sure that he will ever win a championship. And if Darnold is a bust, forget it. You can add five years on top of the six... as Gettleman stated on Thursday.
If Gettleman does draft Darnold, then he is essentially announcing that he does not believe that the Giants can win now with Eli. Yes, he will utter lots of politically correct statements saying he is just being prudent. But the whispers will start to grow and, like Eli himself in 2004, Darnold will be the starter just after the bye on Monday night November 12, 2018 against the 49ers facing Garoppolo. It will be high drama. And Garoppolo will demonstrate that he is far ahead of Darnold. But this will be as it should be - you can't have a top ten quarterback sit anymore. Eli himself proved that and it is true. He needs to begin truly learning the position and the only way to do that is to be on the field asap.
I guess the truth for me is, waiting another six to ten years before we win another Lombardi trophy is just not acceptable for me... I do think we have the talent with a few additional pieces to compete in the next two years so I choose to believe in Eli...
We will know soon enough what Gettleman believes.
Well said. In today’s league of constant player movement and overall parity it is more than plausible for the Giants to bounce back this year and be a contender. Look no further than the Jaguars this past season. They went from being one of the leagues worst teams to a few plays away from a Super Bowl in one season.
Improve the team across multiple positions with numerous extra picks. They should all help Eli too...no?
And if his decline becomes more of a problem and the team still cannot improve its winning %, then I guess you can hope we still pick relatively high in the draft next year.
But I would still go QB this year...
I have been steadfast in my support of Eli mainly because it is the only path to a championship in the next two years. I believe that his mediocre play these past six years is due to the lack of supporting talent, abysmal coaching and an offensive scheme that has been misaligned with his talent. With Barkley, a solid draft and the recent additions through free agency and trades, I am confident we will see a resurgence from Eli and a return to playoff form immediately. And if we do make the playoffs, I wouldn't bet against Eli vs any quarterback in the league - ever.
If you don't believe in Eli, I get it. He has made you very frustrated in recent years and you want a new era of offense characterized by a more mobile "Aaron Rodgers-esque" quarterback talent. Maybe Darnold is that guy. But here's the thing. The likelihood that a new quarterback leads a team like the Giants quickly to a championship is very low. Can it happen quickly? Yes - Roethlisberger and Brady did it in their first year as a starter. But they are truly exceptions. The median of the four top first round quarterback draft picks in the last 35 years - Elway, Aikman, Peyton and Eli Manning - is six years. Andrew Luck, the very best quarterback drafted in the 21st century, is 3-3 in the playoffs and I am not sure that he will ever win a championship. And if Darnold is a bust, forget it. You can add five years on top of the six... as Gettleman stated on Thursday.
If Gettleman does draft Darnold, then he is essentially announcing that he does not believe that the Giants can win now with Eli. Yes, he will utter lots of politically correct statements saying he is just being prudent. But the whispers will start to grow and, like Eli himself in 2004, Darnold will be the starter just after the bye on Monday night November 12, 2018 against the 49ers facing Garoppolo. It will be high drama. And Garoppolo will demonstrate that he is far ahead of Darnold. But this will be as it should be - you can't have a top ten quarterback sit anymore. Eli himself proved that and it is true. He needs to begin truly learning the position and the only way to do that is to be on the field asap.
I guess the truth for me is, waiting another six to ten years before we win another Lombardi trophy is just not acceptable for me... I do think we have the talent with a few additional pieces to compete in the next two years so I choose to believe in Eli...
We will know soon enough what Gettleman believes.
By passing up a QB this year, I think it's far more likely that you'll wait longer than 6-10 years for a quarterback. Leaving Eli out of it for a second, there's just so much that goes into winning a SB. With a new coaching staff and system on both sides of the ball, it'll take time for things to gel. Given the brutal nature of the Giants schedule it may be too late to turn things around and make the playoffs by then. What about injuries? That's luck for the most part so a few key injuries in either or both of those seasons derail those dreams.
That's my biggest frustration with how this organization has been run. For years now it has been quick fixes and building solely for the upcoming season. Yet, given how much luck goes into winning a super bowl in the NFL the more intelligent thing to do is to build to sustain long term success and hope that over the course of a decade-plus that you have a year or two where things fall into place and you can win it all.
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In comment 13924187 Jimmy Googs said:
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Just so the team has to be fortunate enough to find one at a higher point in the draft in a near future year, or worse, burn valuable draft capital to move up and select a QB in a future?
How is that helping make the pieces around the next guy better too?
Maybe flip that coin and see what happens...
:-)
Well you can't fill every hole in an offseason, and you certainly can't fill every hole and future holes in an offseason.
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
OL should be very much improved with a new LT and hopefully a new interior guy from round 2. The backfield can be enormously better with Barkley. And the WR core should be improved as a result of health. New defensive scheme with some tweaks to personnel on all levels..this team can contend.
Fair, but I could say almost the same thing with putting a Michel, Jones or Guice back there and an interior guy in Rd 3, AND I wouldn't have to mortgage the future for a QB in a future draft.
It sounds like you are under the impression it is an absolute that you have to mortgage the future to draft a QB...?
Teams that I consider to have a favorable QB situation that did not have to do that....
DAL - Prescott - 4th round
BAL - Flacco - 18th overall
CIN - Dalton - 2nd round
OAK - Carr - 2nd round
SF - Garropolo - Traded a 2nd rounder
SEA - Wilson - 3rd round
NO - Brees - 2nd round (by SD)
GB - Rodgers - 24th overall
NE - Brady - 6th round
Now....The Who's who among NFL QBs is among that group. And yes I realize you can do that for every position in the game...but that is kind of my point.
To say you have to get your QB at the top of the draft just isn't true. Forcing it can just kill a team for 5+ years.
Improve the team across multiple positions with numerous extra picks. They should all help Eli too...no?
And if his decline becomes more of a problem and the team still cannot improve its winning %, then I guess you can hope we still pick relatively high in the draft next year.
But I would still go QB this year...
I would entertain trading down for sure. NYG is in a great spot...they are going to have multiple directions to go in.
And I want to stress again...I am not against going QB at #2. I just don't like the theory that they HAVE to go QB
If the Giants get off to a rough start, and given the tough first half schedule this would be quite plausible especially if we don't use our prime draft asset to help the 2018 team, the pressure to see Darnold would grow geometrically... I think you are right that the plan would be to play Eli, but as we saw last year, once the playoffs become unrealistic, I think it is likely we would see the kid...
2017
Left Tackle = 5
Left Guard = 6
Center = 5
Right Guard = 5
Right Tackle = 2
2018
Left Tackle = 9 (Solder, not the best but very good)
Left Guard = 6 (2nd round rookie or Omameh)...this could be a 7 easily
Center = 5 (Jones again, maybe a rookie steps in)
Right Guard = 5 (Jerry again, average at best)
Right Tackle = 5 (Flowers or Wheeler, anything is better than what they had in 2017)
Hi sy. Yes I am not arguing about "improvement" I'm arguing that they won't be good. Heck I say this in fun with no malice-- it was you who got me down on Omameh when you replied to me in the past.
ANd if the OLine was so rotten then how can guys like Jones and Jerry be considered "average" when you had told me Omammeh just isn't very good without lots of help. You had said he is not very good.
Thus I think it way too optimistic to think this OL will be good. Sure it might be improved. But Omammeh, Jones, Jerry and the RT imo are not considered average in this grouping. ANd just getting one draft pick in Rd 2 won't make it a good OL either.
If your view on Omammeh needed surrounding good OL around him is correct, then that only makes Eli still sub-par. Two years ago even when he had teem he was average at best, wasn't he? ANd now he is 2 years older.
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This mindless banter.
What is this, the #175th thread on this exact topic?
For Fuchs sake.
Right, because no new threads is much better than a few repetitive ones? You self proclaimed thread police are proving to be the slow motion death of this site.
You read the thread title. If you were not interested, don't click on it. WE ARE LESS THAN A WEEK FROM THE DRAFT.... This site should be full of draft threads right now. Not everyone spends all winter following the minutia of this stuff. Many people are just tuning in now, and frankly, they are probably no worse off for the decision. Why bother with the daily nonsense when they can get the full rundown around this time when info and intentions seem to come into actual focus?
If this thread is not sufficiently crafted prose for your literary taste, perhaps you can start your own thread and put us all in awe of how a real pro does it??? Link - ( New Window )
Sorry, no clue where that link came from....
Actually not sure I remember ever reading that article.
I guess my phone auto filled out the form with that link for some reason.... Good thing it wasn't something more...unique for my sake! LOL
There is too much to not like when it comes to Darnold
I agree with you Sy. I understand the concussions are a cause for concern, but he appears to be the best QB, the only "NFL ready" QB in the draft (well maybe Mayfield, too).
If the Giants think differently, fine...but then get the hell out of that #2 pick. Because surely it is worth more to several teams and the Giants can improve their roster in a different way with multiple picks.
And then address QB in some other year.
I just prescribe to the theory that RB value is throughout the draft, and moreso than any other position...
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In comment 13924100 jtgiants said:
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Agreed if he sits for a year. The issue is he'll sit for at least 2 if eli plays well. That's a fact. Trust me. Sitting for 2 years is awful asset management in a cap world.
So is selecting a RB #2 overall when several very good ones will be sitting there in rd 2 and 3.
You can say that about EVERY position in football. It is a poor argument
Not like you can with the RB position. There’s quality starters and pro bowl caliber players drafted late at the RB position every year. This year will be no different. No one would be surprised if Guice, Michel, Chubb, Jones, Johnson, and Penny have more productive years than Barkley.
I do agree with your second point. I don't think they *have* to take a quarterback but if they think there's one there with the potential to be a franchise qb then they have to do it, even if they're not certain. The upside is worth the risk far more than any other position in sports.
What's your assessment of Eli at this point and what's left in the tank? I'm genuinely curious as we all have opinions but don't necessarily know what we're looking at like you do.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
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In comment 13924178 giantstock said:
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In comment 13924164 OBJRoyal said:
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But I’m tired of all the QB people saying you gotta draft your QB for the next 10-15 years, how hell do we know the QB will make it that long??? Keep hearing this over and over and it’s crazy
With that attitude then how do you know that Barkley won't get one shot in the knee and be basically a shell of what he is projected to be?
I don’t disagree, but it goes both ways. Rosen, for example, hasn’t shown the ability in college to stay healthy.
And as you say it goes both ways. SO are you going to trust the longevity of a Qb or a featured RB that gets hits hit 25-40+ times a game? I'll take the guy with 2 concussions in college. Just give him a good OL.
Darnold yes, Rosen a big no!! It’s not just the concussions....
Yeah, fumblitis....
Darnold yes, Rosen a big no!! It’s not just the concussions....
Ok, what is it besides concussions/medical? He is clearly the best QB coming out. So his floor is already well above the others.
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Pro Eli-Crowd...is that right?
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Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Pro Eli-Crowd...is that right?
Our offense was figured out in early 2016 and BM didn't do a damn thing about it. It's well documented.
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Point remains...Manning is the guy in 2018 and probably 2019. He isn't elite. Thus the pieces around him need to be better. There wasn't a QB situation in the NFL that was worse than Manning's....CLE included. A bottom 3 OL, a bottom 3 backfield, a bottom 2 WR core. And a defense that couldnt hold a lead.
And btw, I let this one past me earlier but will respond now...
The Giants won 11 games in 2016, but only 3 in 2017.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 OL since it was the basically the same shitty pieces in each year.
The difference certainly wasn't a bottom 3 backfield since it was basically the same pieces in each year
For the BBI crowd that thinks Eli hasn't declined, the difference had to just be the lack of OBJ and the same Defense that just underperformed.
Pro Eli-Crowd...is that right?
There are plenty of arguments to refute this, but the bottom line is the new GM and HC don’t think Eli has declined. That’s really all that matters at this point.
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In comment 13924241 Sean said:
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
Sy flip-flopping again?
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In comment 13924241 Sean said:
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
Nice Sy. Again, appreciate your adds to the site.
And for those who need a sneak preview...his top ranked QB is going to be Rosen.
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In comment 13924257 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 13924241 Sean said:
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
Nice Sy. Again, appreciate your adds to the site.
And for those who need a sneak preview...his top ranked QB is going to be Rosen.
The play is Rosen or trade down in my opinion.
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
But if Cleveland truly is in love with Barkley and willing to trade away both of their 2nds....and maybe squeeze a pick in 2019....to move to 4.....
Cleveland drafting Allen and Barkley
Jets seem to be targeting Rosen or Mayfield.
Still leaves Darnold and whoever the Jets do not take available...plus Chubb......
A couple of thoughts:
I would feel much better drafting a QB....with extra draft picks.
3 top of 2nd pick would be sweet......willing to forgo Barkley
#4 pick would still be a hot commodity for a trade down. More than enough ammo to trade back down for Nelson
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
This is pretty much what I’ve said since the college season. It’s really an either/or situation — either you take the QB and strap in for a rebuild or you trade down and infuse the core areas of the roster w talent.
Schumer thinks he can develop Webb or does not .
Who knows if the Browns will not take Darnold ?
The highest ranked player in the draft is Barkley I think
they will take him or a trade down that will have to be a deal they can't pass on . I don't see the GM making any
double moves moving down then up or down twice .
They will stay in the top 5 IMO
Again will be fine with a QB but hoping for Barkley !
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We are not expecting elite play from Eli without a superior cast around him.
If you pick the QB you are devoting close to 30 million to a QB position, but you still need to build a superior cast around him. Those two things are at odds with each other. Not impossible, certainly at odds. But given our roster suck with holes everywhere, I am hard pressed to see where the cap space will come from to sign all these players to turn the what is an inferior roster into a superior one.
It would seem to me, if you take the QB, you are forced into rebuild mode. Don't see how we can be win now.
Personally, I can't see how this roster can be built into a winning one this year. That seems unreasonable. 2019 would need a lot of things to go right.
This is pretty much what I’ve said since the college season. It’s really an either/or situation — either you take the QB and strap in for a rebuild or you trade down and infuse the core areas of the roster w talent.
Well, hope to infuse the team, at best. Getting a huge haul of picks from the Skins didn't exactly net the Rams a number of elite players.
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In comment 13924241 Sean said:
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
unlike you I subscribe to the idea that the Giants must take a QB in this draft. My choice would be Rosen.
In fact I think taking a RB at #2 is malpractice and would be a tragic waste of draft equity for the Giants. This is a deep RB class, talent can be had in rounds 2-3-4... And while Barkley is a talented player I am not even certain his game translates so well to the next level - as a homerun hitter who bounces a lot of runs to the outside.
Meanwhile this is a strong QB class and we sit in great position to get arguably the best pure passer and most intelligent football mind available. If you hit on the next Rodgers or Brady it transforms the organization for a generation. It is a risk well worth taking here. I don't buy the idea that we should be afraid to miss on the qb pick that some make here. We are already in the position of banking on a qb that no longer has elite skills. eli is now a bottom half of the league qb.
I just don't understand the thinking that drives some of the folks on this site. The Patriots, the best org in the NFL, is thinking QB and they have Brady and just went to their second straight SB, but somehow the Giants shouldnt think about their QB succession because maybe we can add a RB to help Manning find glory he hasnt had in seven years. I dont think this is how great franchises sustain excellence.
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In comment 13924257 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 13924241 Sean said:
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Good points. I’m looking forward to your QB rankings to see if any second tier prospects could be NYG fits.
Sy - your QB rankings aren't out there yet? I figured they would be based on your preference to Barkley in this thread.
What's the ETA?
And thanks for those posts btw. Its a nice add to BBI for certain to have your input...
Aiming for Monday
I love Barkley, but I am not all in on taking him over my top rated QB
unlike you I subscribe to the idea that the Giants must take a QB in this draft. My choice would be Rosen.
In fact I think taking a RB at #2 is malpractice and would be a tragic waste of draft equity for the Giants. This is a deep RB class, talent can be had in rounds 2-3-4... And while Barkley is a talented player I am not even certain his game translates so well to the next level - as a homerun hitter who bounces a lot of runs to the outside.
Meanwhile this is a strong QB class and we sit in great position to get arguably the best pure passer and most intelligent football mind available. If you hit on the next Rodgers or Brady it transforms the organization for a generation. It is a risk well worth taking here. I don't buy the idea that we should be afraid to miss on the qb pick that some make here. We are already in the position of banking on a qb that no longer has elite skills. eli is now a bottom half of the league qb.
I just don't understand the thinking that drives some of the folks on this site. The Patriots, the best org in the NFL, is thinking QB and they have Brady and just went to their second straight SB, but somehow the Giants shouldnt think about their QB succession because maybe we can add a RB to help Manning find glory he hasnt had in seven years. I dont think this is how great franchises sustain excellence.
I am eager to see Sy's ratings tomorrow because as best as I can tell, there is nothing that I have seen that characterizes this as a strong quarterback class in terms of "Andrew Luck/Matt Ryan" transcendent quality. There may be many first round projected quarterbacks rated at the Mark Sanchez/Blaine Gabbert levels, but even then, there is absolutely no consensus whatsoever on any of the four. I thought Kiper and McShay were going to get into a fistfight on Friday defending their very different points of view!
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
Your kid QB will have benefited by watching for a year and then you go on being relevant for another decade plus. In an ideal world you wait another year, but this is as close as you get to seamless transition as is possible now. Do it and don't look back, especially if Darnold is there at 2. He's the ideal NYG player to succeed Eli.
What's all the hand-ringing about? I swear, some of you deserve to see the Danny Kannells or Kent Grahams of the world QB your team for a few years before you can appreciate how lucky we are to be in this situation. You can't pick a RB if a franchise QB is there. I don't care who your vet QB is. The greatest QB who ever lived, Joe Montana, was traded. Eli isn't Montana. He can be traded or cut too. The end of a player's tenure with their club is seldom one of their own choosing. Most don't go out on their own terms like LT did. Deal with it.
Common sense? Do you have $62 Million to spend on a 32 year-old OLT?
Well, that’s the age Solder will be when Darnold would most likely take the reins.
Do you think that Mara & Tisch signed Solder to man the OLT position @ $62 Mil for Eli’s waning years? Common sense?
The ownership whether we like it or not believes Eli has at least 2 years, if not more left to bring the Giants to the promised land. Mara/Tisch/Gettleman/Shurmur & Mssrs. are “ALL IN” for 2018 and beyond.
That means giving Eli all the help you can give him. It means fortifying the offensive line to try to augment the time Eli will have to scan the field while sitting in the pocket; it means giving Eli a running game; not only to complement the passing game, but to embellish it. The running game will be an important part 0f the team this year to take considerable pressure off Eli, and to augment ball control (in an attempt to give the defense a respite late in the game).
Accordingly, what this means in regards to the draft is that the Giants are likely going RB, then OG in Rd. 2 unless they trade down (due to John Dorsey selecting Barkley with #1).
Remember what George Young said (and it fits in the drafting context as well): “IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY”!
Fantastic. And true.
Several pro scouts have indicted Darnold to be at the top of this class of QBs. However, they have also cited that Darnold would have been 4th had he been drafted (after his best college season) in 2017 - after Trubisky, Watson & Mahomes. I don’t know if this is considered “Franchise”.
What do you think, Sy?
1. Of the Qbs that remain at 2, do the Giants have a franchise grade on any?
2. How firm are their convictions on Webb being the heir apparent?
3. With this draft potentially being extremely even historically deep at the QB position, how high a grade do they have on others that can be had after #2? (Like Lauletta)
4. Do they behind closed doors truly feel Eli has a mimumum of 2-3 years left? (as theyve been saying publicly)
5. How close do they feel they are to being competitive again? (It sounds like they want to take advantage of Eli's remaining window of championship level football as Ernie Accorsi put it)
Several pro scouts have indicted Darnold to be at the top of this class of QBs. However, they have also cited that Darnold would have been 4th had he been drafted (after his best college season) in 2017 - after Trubisky, Watson & Mahomes. I don’t know if this is considered “Franchise”.
What do you think, Sy?
a lot of analysts, Greg Cosell included, believe this is a solid group of qb prospects and think they compare favorably to other classes. Cosell for instance favors Rosen and Mayfield over Darnold and Allen and thinks Wentz was better coming out of college but these top 2 at least are just a notch below that.
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
the Browns are not taking Barkley. Nobody in the top 5 other than the Giants is even thinking about Barkley. To me you dint take Barkley at 2, not when we have a dire need at QB.
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In all likelihood, one won't be available to them anyway. If Barkley is the one who's there, you take him. If Darnold is there, tougher decision. If they take him, they will get very little help this year from the draft since Darnold would sit and they only have 5 more picks.
If both are somehow there, I'll refer to a quote from DG which, regarding the #2 overall pick, basically said the criteria is whether the guy is worthy of being the #2 pick in any draft? For Barkley, the answer is yes. For Darnold, I don't think so because there are some warts.
So with all of that said, I really think the Giants will either take Barclay or, if he's gone, try to trade down to #4 or #5 in a package where they get a #1 in 2019 which would enable them to draft one of the 4 or 5 projected 1st round QBs next year.
the Browns are not taking Barkley. Nobody in the top 5 other than the Giants is even thinking about Barkley. To me you dint take Barkley at 2, not when we have a dire need at QB.
QBs are the most important asset that can not be argued. But there are multiple variables that go into this (in rough order of importance):
1. Of the Qbs that remain at 2, do the Giants have a franchise grade on any?
2. How firm are their convictions on Webb being the heir apparent?
3. With this draft potentially being extremely even historically deep at the QB position, how high a grade do they have on others that can be had after #2? (Like Lauletta)
4. Do they behind closed doors truly feel Eli has a mimumum of 2-3 years left? (as theyve been saying publicly)
5. How close do they feel they are to being competitive again? (It sounds like they want to take advantage of Eli's remaining window of championship level football as Ernie Accorsi put it)