I think its always important to look big picture rather than the current hubbub by the media over the pick.
When we look big picture at the Giant organizations intentions rather than the current maneuverings of the GM and remember the condition in which he was hired under.
Lets look back to last year and we find that the Giants actually tried trading UP in the draft for QB Pat Mahomes.
ESPN's Anita Marks reported Friday that the Giants tried to trade up for Mahomes, but ultimately failed in that endeavor. Now, the Giants are "very upset."
What we found is that the Giants were in a trade competition for Mahomes and lost
“Last year with Patrick (Mahomes), there were four or five teams that desperately wanted him, so it just set up a trade scenario. It was just a function of how high would Kansas City go above Arizona and the New York Giants and different teams who were interested to get him. So Nic’s job is to impress an individual team in this process.”
This should be an important lesson for the Giants as well. Its not so easy to just get a QB any year and especially if you need to move up and get.
So, what did the media know beforehand as the Giants obviously were heavily interested in Mahomes to attemp a trade up.
I linked an article by Paul Schwartz of the New York Post as he has been a name heavily involved in this years media narrative of Giants draft plans.
Schwartz did not cite a source in the article but was tipped off by the fact that McAdoo attended Mahomes Pro Day, had a private meeting with him and interviewed him at Combine. This was only QB we did that with.
This should tell us that interest level at these events is more than “due diligence” and does mean something.
In addition. Schwartz misread the signal and downplayed the Giants interest as only being if Mahomes fell all the way to Giants pick at 23, if which there was no chance with 4-5 teams attempting a trade up.
“Though it does not necessarily mean the Giants are hot after Mahomes or they are intent on taking a quarterback early in this year’s draft, they could select a quarterback in the first few rounds, if things fall a certain way.”
Mara said of the draft ‘I Was hoping we would draft a QB at some point” and referred to a Parcells quote about Webb “lets not get his bust ready for Canton yet” and having to see him play on the field until you know what you have.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-york-giants/0ap3000000807371/Mara-I-was-hoping-Giants-would-draft-a-QB-at-some-point
So if we frame this failed attempt to get a QB as a picture we also see that the Giants ownership did this is in November as Mara directed his staff to look at the QBs in this Draft.
“There was a directive given several weeks back by co-owner John Mara to start looking closely at the top college quarterbacks, multiple sources told ESPN.”
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/54741/sources-giants-looking-closely-at-sam-darnold-top-qb-prospects
Mara as we know is the one who initiated what became the Eli benching.
Mara said a few weeks ago he mentioned to Jerry Reese the team should be thinking about getting a look at QBs Geno Smith and Davis Webb. Mara hoped Eli would agree to start the games and then come out.
4:49 PM - Nov 29, 2017
This should also be looked at in recognition of the fact that HC Ben McAdoo actually thought Geno Smith could replace Eli Manning. As cracy as it sounds he did. No one took him seriously when he said it.
McAdoo also said “I don’t see why not’’ when asked if newly acquired Jets castoff Geno Smith could be the heir apparent to Manning, and proceeded to laud Smith’s physical skill set. First, Smith has to make the roster.
So obviously when Mara gave that directive about Geno he knew that that his HC actually did think he was a potential replacement.
https://nypost.com/2017/03/28/mcadoo-with-jaw-dropper-geno-smith-can-be-giants-future/
Lastly, we see this quote from Mara on “wholesale changes”.
"When was the last time we changed a general manager and a head coach in the same year? It was 1979, and there might be another change or two or three happening in the future. For me, that's pretty wholesale."
1979 is a big hint. The Giants drafted Phil Simms in the 1st round. He is saying GM/HC/QB equal “wholesale changes”. He was hinting more coming which is QB.
The picture is clear. The Giants pursued a replacement to Eli Manning in last years draft. To the point they attempted to trade UP and lost a 4 way competition for him. They benched him at mid-year at Mara’s initiation. Mara directed his staff to look at this years draft for a QB replacement. Mara promised wholesale changes and hinted QB is part of that mix and coming.
This is all coming from ownership. John Mara. This is the condition of which Dave Gettleman is hired.
In the video clip I posted of last years draft Mara was very clear. He is in room for every pick and has “final approval” over every draft pick. I know people are going to say Gettleman may do things differently or its his ideas now but he was hired by Mara. Mara obviously hired him under a certain direction. That direction is clear as day for anyone to see when looking at the timeline of the past year.
The Giants are drafting QB at the 2 pick.
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Now some people loved Mahomes. I did not, still do not and I think he will do well with Andy Reid because that is what Reid does with QBs. (that and $2.79 gets you a tall at Starbucks.)
But I agree with you on needing a QB, not because of McAdoo or Mara but because Eli is 37 and the chance of drafting inside the top 3 or even top 5 in the near future are slim. Next year's QB class is meh.
There's one shred of evidence though that doesn't really fit the narrative. Louis Riddick interviewed for the GM job so if the directive to find Manning's successor is coming from Mara and he feels strongly about it then why wouldn't Riddick have any sense for that?
Could mean nothing at all but felt worth pointing out since he seemed to have been hinting that he knows something from his interview
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Hence his quotes about wanting to go QB last year
yet, the Giants the still tried really hard to move UP for Mahomes and were “very upset” they didnt get him.
As far as the directive to look at the quarterbacks possibly coming out this year, well of course that would be the directive. You know that we will be picking high and there is supposedly top prospects at that position coming out. It would be downright inexcusable to not look at the quarterbacks.
I have believed all along Giants like more than one if these quarterbacks.
[quote] I enjoy the detective work, hence my earlier thread on Gettlemen having Webb in for a private visit last year
There's one shred of evidence though that doesn't really fit the narrative. Louis Riddick interviewed for the GM job so if the directive to find Manning's successor is coming from Mara and he feels strongly about it then why wouldn't Riddick have any sense for that?
Riddick was a failed candidate, Your premise is that Riddick was interviewing the Giants and not the other way around. As if the Giants go in to the interview and start telling him that they want to go QB in the draft and who would he take? Why would the giants tip off their direction to an ESPN analyst, They wouldn’t? The interview is about his vision for the Giants direction and then they hire the guy that matches theirs. Hence Riddick not getting the job.
Hence his quotes about wanting to go QB last year
If you believe that, then I have 2 bridges to sell you. Two for one.
The season was lost, we were not going anywhere. What Mara wanted was for Webb to possibly get in a few games if they were getting out of hand. Might as well see what the kid could possibly do. There is no harm in that and its not an indication of anything.
It was mcadoo and Reese who screwed the pooch by coming up with their dumb ass plan.
What Mara wanted and his intentions were very far from what Reese and mcadoo did, which is why they are no longer employed.
Hence his quotes about wanting to go QB last year
Wrong. McAdoo went to Mara and asked permission to play Webb and Geno. It was presented to Mara as getting some playing time to evaluate(especially Webb). Mara came out and admitted he approved having Webb and Geno play some but implied what McAdoo did was not what he presented to Mara in the meeting...
Darnold will be the pick just by process of elimination.
Rosen: injury history and possible character concerns.
Allen: inaccurate.
Mayfield: height and character concerns.
I'm not sold on Darnold, but am on the Giants drafting him at #2 without hesitation.
John Mara
It wasnt McAdoo directing the staff to scout QBs in Nov and ir wasnt McAdoo talking about wholesale changes when introducing the GM
Mara wants a QB
You have made it abundantly clear in several threads that you don't think the Giants will go QB. I hope you are wrong because I really like Darnold and Rosen.
Darnold will be the pick just by process of elimination.
Rosen: injury history and possible character concerns.
Allen: inaccurate.
Mayfield: height and character concerns.
I'm not sold on Darnold, but am on the Giants drafting him at #2 without hesitation.
There are no character concerns with Rosen.
Darnold is a walking turnover machine with little to no experience under center and a myriad of mechanical flaws. He MAY correct them. He MAY learn to hold onto the football (but see one Eli Manning). He MAY correct his footwork (but see one Eli Manning).
I'm not anti Darnold, I just think Rosen is clearly a better QB and leave the medicals to the Giants doctors.
No, I say BM had an ulterior motive.
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John Mara directed the QB moves, not McAdoo
Hence his quotes about wanting to go QB last year
If you believe that, then I have 2 bridges to sell you. Two for one.
The season was lost, we were not going anywhere. What Mara wanted was for Webb to possibly get in a few games if they were getting out of hand. Might as well see what the kid could possibly do. There is no harm in that and its not an indication of anything.
It was mcadoo and Reese who screwed the pooch by coming up with their dumb ass plan.
What Mara wanted and his intentions were very far from what Reese and mcadoo did, which is why they are no longer employed.
Mara signed off on their "dumb ass plan." Don't dismiss that.
No, I say BM had an ulterior motive.
Should be a "?" after "playoffs".
Did you get jealous that some of the 3/18 crew were going to steal your title of worst poster on the site and decided to go for broke to defend the belt?
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In comment 13924285 twostepgiants said:
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John Mara directed the QB moves, not McAdoo
Hence his quotes about wanting to go QB last year
If you believe that, then I have 2 bridges to sell you. Two for one.
The season was lost, we were not going anywhere. What Mara wanted was for Webb to possibly get in a few games if they were getting out of hand. Might as well see what the kid could possibly do. There is no harm in that and its not an indication of anything.
It was mcadoo and Reese who screwed the pooch by coming up with their dumb ass plan.
What Mara wanted and his intentions were very far from what Reese and mcadoo did, which is why they are no longer employed.
Mara signed off on their "dumb ass plan." Don't dismiss that.
Speaking of dumb asses, thanks for chiming in.
Mara signed off on what he thought was a rather clear plan to see Webb in action. But BM botched it and that was one of the reasons he got canned.
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Did you get jealous that some of the 3/18 crew were going to steal your title of worst poster on the site and decided to go for broke to defend the belt?
Hitdog has spoken. End thread.
If Im wrong Im wrong. What can you do? I will process the info and adjust for next time. I think the Giants will live to regret the move and rather fast at that. Ive been a Giants fan 30+ years. You think Ive agreed with every move? Its not life and death here.
This. How can anyone say they actually know. This sounds like the chicken and the egg argument about who said what to whom about what and when.
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In comment 13924285 twostepgiants said:
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John Mara directed the QB moves, not McAdoo
Hence his quotes about wanting to go QB last year
If you believe that, then I have 2 bridges to sell you. Two for one.
The season was lost, we were not going anywhere. What Mara wanted was for Webb to possibly get in a few games if they were getting out of hand. Might as well see what the kid could possibly do. There is no harm in that and its not an indication of anything.
It was mcadoo and Reese who screwed the pooch by coming up with their dumb ass plan.
What Mara wanted and his intentions were very far from what Reese and mcadoo did, which is why they are no longer employed.
Mara signed off on their "dumb ass plan." Don't dismiss that.
Mara did not sign off on Geno Smith or what was presented to Eli. That is why mcadoo and Reese were fired. What Mara would have liked to see happen and what actually happened were 2 totally different things
Please add some clearity to the Mahomes story.
Adam Schefter and Anita Marks of Espn confirmed with several sources.
They might go qb and they might not. All you do is constantly try to spin it so it matches your choice.
I don't think they are drafting a QB any more. But what do I know? I am just a fan.
Those on BBI who thought Mahomes was the 2nd coming....
They might go qb and they might not. All you do is constantly try to spin it so it matches your choice.
I don't think they are drafting a QB any more. But what do I know? I am just a fan.
John Mara is gone?
Hence his quotes about wanting to go QB last year
I've been trying to tell people this for weeks. Mara also told the scouts he wanted them to go look at the QBs.
People want to rule Rosen out, but when you look at what they've done I don't think you can. What they are saying in the media and what they are actually doing are two completely separate things.
They met with Rosen at the combine. They met with Rosen prior to his Pro Day. Mike Shula was in attendance. Then they set up a private workout with him which Abrams, Chris Mara, Shurmur & Shula attended. Prior to the workout all of those guys plus John Mara & Steve Tisch had a dinner with him in California. Finally they brought him in for dinner last week and a top 30 visit the day after.
Darnold's Pro Day was the day after we worked Rosen out at UCLA. I forget who said it, but I read on Twitter last week that Mara & Tisch did not meet with Darnold prior to his Pro Day.
From all the information that's out there Rosen is the only guy ownership had met with outside of his top 30 visit.
People want to downplay it, but both Owners meeting with a draft prospect is a big deal. Especially Mara flying across the country to have dinner with him.
I'm sure Owners meeting with draft prospects happens often, but I can only remember two off the top of my head. Howie Roseman met with Wentz in North Dakota before the Eagles took him.
This year Jimmy Haslam met with both Sam Darnold & Josh Allen prior to their Pro Day.
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analysis.
Darnold will be the pick just by process of elimination.
Rosen: injury history and possible character concerns.
Allen: inaccurate.
Mayfield: height and character concerns.
I'm not sold on Darnold, but am on the Giants drafting him at #2 without hesitation.
There are no character concerns with Rosen.
Darnold is a walking turnover machine with little to no experience under center and a myriad of mechanical flaws. He MAY correct them. He MAY learn to hold onto the football (but see one Eli Manning). He MAY correct his footwork (but see one Eli Manning).
I'm not anti Darnold, I just think Rosen is clearly a better QB and leave the medicals to the Giants doctors.
I should have been clearer. I have repeatedly stated that I don't care about Rosen's "comments" or "antics." It's just college hijinks IMO. But the Giants might, especially after the chaos of last year. I do consider his concussion history preclusive. Absent that I would definitely draft Rosen. His mechanics are terrific, unlike Darnold. Neither is a "remote thrower."
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Who ever deemed the maholmes chatter factual?
Adam Schefter and Anita Marks of Espn confirmed with several sources.
Maybe read threads before last draft when I quietly and quickly referenced not to get ones panties in a bunch over the mahomes speculation.
...well played, Sir!
The hot tub? I can't see the Giants giving a fuck about that. They did give up two 1st round picks, a 3rd and 5th round pick for a player who was arrested in college.
The Fuck Trump hat? I could be wrong, but isn't Mara a known Democrat? I could be wrong on this also as it was before my time, but didn't John's Father hate Trump?
That's just what you're hoping for. MO
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In comment 13924293 TrueBlue56 said:
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In comment 13924285 twostepgiants said:
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John Mara directed the QB moves, not McAdoo
Hence his quotes about wanting to go QB last year
If you believe that, then I have 2 bridges to sell you. Two for one.
The season was lost, we were not going anywhere. What Mara wanted was for Webb to possibly get in a few games if they were getting out of hand. Might as well see what the kid could possibly do. There is no harm in that and its not an indication of anything.
It was mcadoo and Reese who screwed the pooch by coming up with their dumb ass plan.
What Mara wanted and his intentions were very far from what Reese and mcadoo did, which is why they are no longer employed.
Mara signed off on their "dumb ass plan." Don't dismiss that.
Mara did not sign off on Geno Smith or what was presented to Eli. That is why mcadoo and Reese were fired. What Mara would have liked to see happen and what actually happened were 2 totally different things
He absolutely did. Everything that followed was PR spin to appease a fan base that was reacting, by Mara's own admission, far more strongly than he anticipated.
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In comment 13924315 SHO'NUFF said:
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Did you get jealous that some of the 3/18 crew were going to steal your title of worst poster on the site and decided to go for broke to defend the belt?
Hitdog has spoken. End thread.
About Mahomes. Not about your stupid pity f*ck nonsense.
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In comment 13924321 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13924315 SHO'NUFF said:
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/thread
Did you get jealous that some of the 3/18 crew were going to steal your title of worst poster on the site and decided to go for broke to defend the belt?
Hitdog has spoken. End thread.
About Mahomes. Not about your stupid pity f*ck nonsense.
Speaking of needing a pity fuck, thanks for chiming in...
he did this knowing that McAdoo actually thought Geno Smith was a viable option to replace Eli Manning.
He did this knowing he had already ordered his staff to begin scouting college QBs for the 2018 Draft, which he ordered in November.
The big picture is that John Mara is ready, willing and able to replace Eli Manning.
There seems to be a train of thought about Giants loving Eli and unwilling to do this. The years worth of history on Giants ownership proves otherwise.
1. As OP noted, Mara requested the college QB’s be scouted/scrutinized.
2. Mara signed off on allowing Geno & eventually Webb to play.
3. QB guru Shurmur was hired.
4. Mike Shula was hired to exclusively work with the QB’s.
Those are the actions since November.
Really nice post twostep.
The New York Giants are looking closely at college quarterbacks. The mandate was given when their season started to collapse. It’s the responsible thing to do with a high pick in next year’s draft.
General manager Jerry Reese was even at USC-UCLA on Saturday night to watch Sam Darnold vs. Josh Rosen. That is telling. Reese doesn’t get out to many college games anymore.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/55005/giants-qb-watch-josh-rosen-makes-a-statement-against-sam-darnold - ( New Window )