A DT NEEDS to be taken in Rd 1 or Rd 2 or Rd 3

DT starters for two positions. How many legit OL starters are for 5 positions? How many RBs? While I'm at it, what about DE or LB? Safety? DT is not as needy as a lot of other positions on the team.

Mauro, Snacks and Tomlinson are the DL starters.

...given our o-line situation, I'm a little hesitant to declare we must secure a DT with a premium pick.

Why?

Because how well will that newly drafted DT hold up when the offense has the ball for 25 minutes in the game.

IMO, the #1 relief for our defensive line is an offensive line that controls the tempo and rhythm of the game.

Needs where do we begin you only see a DT as a primary need what roster did you use to come up with that?

Robert Thomas probably is thought of highly as Gettleman did have him in Carolina. This draft is deep at DT even if you are only talking about solid rotational guys outside of Vea. Outside of TE, every position must be in play every round until filled. There isn't enough picks for us to fill every position and we should not sacrifice better talent just to fill more positions if we are not getting appropriate value in return

all over.

... will be answered. They will be talking about this draft and next as rebuilding the Giants. Back up the fk’n Lombardi’s.

But there are a couple of things that suggest not.

First, they're shifting to a base 3-4, and that means they'll only be playing one DT at a time. They have a very very good 3-4 nose tackle in Harrison. Tomlinson is now listed as a DE instead of a DT, with Robert Thomas signed to be Harrison's backup. So maybe they could use another backup nose tackle, but I bet Tomlinson could play NT if needed.

I think they need more 3-4 DEs. I don't see enough stout Leonard Marshall types. They signed Mauro for just that reason, I think.

Second,I don't think the Giants say "We need a DT and have to get one." I don't think they do that at any position. Nor do most NFL teams.

Generally, NFL teams don't go into the draft trying to specific, immediate holes. That's what free agency is for. In free agency, you get proven guys, and you plan on plugging them in. Some free agents bust but that's the theory.

At the top of the draft you can't pass on a potential Hall of Famer because you have a hole. Later in the draft, where the talent is more evenly bunched, you can go for need, but need is only one consideration. QB may be the big exception because of the importance of the position and the rarity of quality QBs hitting the free agent market and after the first three rounds.

Bottom line: You draft players, not positions. If there's a talent you like who fits your team, and he fills a need at that position, great. If not, you pick another talent you like at another position.

The draft is for the future, and for replacing veterans down the road, guys who are going to be gone due to retirement, free agency, cap cuts, injuries, etc. The Giants tend to want their first round pick to start, but they seem to be ok with developmental guys for a lot of their picks.

So anyway, for this draft: Let's put aside the #2 overall pick; there is no DT rated that high, so that's not happening. If they trade down, maybe.

With other picks, if they're going need, there are bigger needs at OL, LB, RB and even WR (no clear starter on the other side of Beckham and crummy depth).

Anyway, like I said: Maybe. But I don't think that's how it's going to work.

There are two types of 3-4 schemes. There is the Romeo Crennel school that relies more on run stuffing DE’s to occupy blockers. There is the Wade Phillips school that also emphasizes collapsing the pocket with your DE’s which frees up space for LB to get a run

I would take Vea at 12 and Hernandez at 22. Then I would take Lauletta at 34. But that's just me.

In third round

There are defensive line players with various skills and at various weights.

So, old school 3/4 may day ' use one giant nose DT and a '3/4 end'.

But we've been told that this is more multiple than that.

Are there draft prospects currently listed by pundits as Nose D Tackles, or classic 4/3 D Tackles, who could play next to Harrison in a betcher D?

Probably a very strong yes.

If they do have required move skills in addition to being in the 300+ range, and also good run stoppers, why not.

You draft your highest rated linesmen and go from there.

I hardly think betcher would bench or fail to make use of a Vea or Payne or whomever over 'system fit' when he's known to be flexible.

Need talent along the OL and DL. That’s part of the reason why a trade down makes sense.

I see modern 3/4 as consisting, (on typical run/pass downs) of a front 3 with various players who all have actual 'DT chops'.

In other words, any of whom can stand up well vs power running and any of whom can pass rush when it's manufactured in and when the lines get chaotic.

So. Not duds.

You can still rotate in your large olb types or 4/3 end types to frint 3 for additional rush in long D+D.

You also can still go front 3 wide and blitz anyone quicker into the A gaps.

Having a roster like that gets you much more flexibility to field variety and even crazy speed at the other 8 players. Or even the old 5-0-6 hehe hehe which is same front 3 but with olbs such as we now have.

That we still designate player types by 'position', when in some cases, (evan engram, our olb/DEs, those on DL techniques) they are types that can start pre snap in a variety of spots.

Obviously a center is still actually a center, etc.

1--- Someone mentioned Mauro. He is OUT for 4 weeks, isn't he? SO you want to just give up 4 weeks having a sub-par DE? And even Mauro is a sub par starter player, isn't he? And he's a backup player isn't he anyways?

2--- Others mentioned Thomas. Thomas is another backup player, isn't he?

3--- In the 3-4 defensive set-- the two end defenders - Tomlinson (and ?) are more Defensive Tackle type players.

4-- I've heard mention that we have backup players for 3-4. WHy do you want a backup player to play one of the positions in a 3-4?

In comment 13925443 idiotsavant said:

Quote:

There are defensive line players with various skills and at various weights. So, old school 3/4 may day ' use one giant nose DT and a '3/4 end'. But we've been told that this is more multiple than that. Are there draft prospects currently listed by pundits as Nose D Tackles, or classic 4/3 D Tackles, who could play next to Harrison in a betcher D? Probably a very strong yes. If they do have required move skills in addition to being in the 300+ range, and also good run stoppers, why not. You draft your highest rated linesmen and go from there. I hardly think betcher would bench or fail to make use of a Vea or Payne or whomever over 'system fit' when he's known to be flexible.

People also get stuck with burying their head in the sand.

We speak of wanting "good football palyers."

Well in the 3-4 set- you have Snacks as the NT and Tomlinson at the other end. WHo else is a good (when I say good I don't mean below average) football player in that defensive front you can rely on? Thomas and Mauro are backup caliber players. Are they not?


1-------- When Dg says he wants to build his teams by dominating the line of scrimmage, are Thomas and Mauro the type of players that you can start for 16 weeks and they will be part of a unit that dominates the line of scrimmage?

And if we do field a beast - high value, nifty movement and heavy front 3, that will work wonders for your quick ILBs, therefore for your safeties, and thus for the middle of the field - on back.

In comment 13925396 Boy Cord said:

Quote:

... will be answered. They will be talking about this draft and next as rebuilding the Giants. Back up the fk’n Lombardi’s.

Giving away a chance at a premium player for a whole lot of dreck is exactly the opposite of answering our prayers.

If your ilbs don't have to worry about getting RBs sprinting free right up the middle, you can use quicker typically smaller ilbs and let them flow.

With that, your up safety is freer to go to sideline or jump a route to go int hunting.... or to drop much deeper back.

All that helps your deep safety who is more able to look deep.

In comment 13925443 idiotsavant said:

Quote:

There are defensive line players with various skills and at various weights. So, old school 3/4 may day ' use one giant nose DT and a '3/4 end'. But we've been told that this is more multiple than that. Are there draft prospects currently listed by pundits as Nose D Tackles, or classic 4/3 D Tackles, who could play next to Harrison in a betcher D? Probably a very strong yes. If they do have required move skills in addition to being in the 300+ range, and also good run stoppers, why not. You draft your highest rated linesmen and go from there. I hardly think betcher would bench or fail to make use of a Vea or Payne or whomever over 'system fit' when he's known to be flexible.

Jumble, gobbledygook, flapdoodle, linesmen instead of linemen, words, words, words, 5-0-6.

But your not very smart

In comment 13925477 idiotsavant said:

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But your not very smart

Oh, yeah?



*You're.

In comment 13925471 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 13925396 Boy Cord said: Quote: ... will be answered. They will be talking about this draft and next as rebuilding the Giants. Back up the fk’n Lombardi’s. Giving away a chance at a premium player for a whole lot of dreck is exactly the opposite of answering our prayers.

Exactly.

In comment 13925486 GFAN52 said:

Quote:

In comment 13925471 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 13925396 Boy Cord said: Quote: ... will be answered. They will be talking about this draft and next as rebuilding the Giants. Back up the fk’n Lombardi’s. Giving away a chance at a premium player for a whole lot of dreck is exactly the opposite of answering our prayers. Exactly.

A trade with the Bills could garner five to six picks in rounds 1-3 this year and a first next year. No guarantees #2 will amount to anything. I wasn’t serious about a trade answering our prayers, but it is damn intriguing, particularly with the Bills 2019 1st in play.

talk about Snacks and Tomlinson in the same sentence....

a DT at #2?

In the second round? Continue to ignore the OL?

By the time you get to the the 3rd round, it more likely BPA than position of need.....

In comment 13925543 Boy Cord said:

Quote:

In comment 13925486 GFAN52 said: Quote: In comment 13925471 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 13925396 Boy Cord said: Quote: ... will be answered. They will be talking about this draft and next as rebuilding the Giants. Back up the fk’n Lombardi’s. Giving away a chance at a premium player for a whole lot of dreck is exactly the opposite of answering our prayers. Exactly. A trade with the Bills could garner five to six picks in rounds 1-3 this year and a first next year. No guarantees #2 will amount to anything. I wasn’t serious about a trade answering our prayers, but it is damn intriguing, particularly with the Bills 2019 1st in play.

And the Cleveland Browns under Paul DePodesta traded down with reckless abandoned and ended up with nothing to show for it. It is not just the number of picks. When you are considering a trade down you need to have an idea in mind about who will be available with the picks. If you see this as a 10 player draft, trading down to 12 is risky especially if you are not seeing enough from the extra picks to make up for not getting any Top 10 player

In comment 13925551 Doomster said:

Quote:

a DT at #2? In the second round? Continue to ignore the OL? By the time you get to the the 3rd round, it more likely BPA than position of need.....

No-- I was using the word "OR" in the subject line of this thread. "OR" doesn't mean take 3 DT's.

I want/expect the Giants to take one DT. That DT should be one of the defensive ends in the 3-4 .

there is no way they take a DT in the first or second round.....and only in the 3rd if he is the BPA, not because of need....

What have we done for the OL? We have signed Solder and resigned an average at best center......That leaves three spots open......hopefully, the draft can fill one or two of them........

In comment 13925571 Doomster said:

Quote:

there is no way they take a DT in the first or second round.....and only in the 3rd if he is the BPA, not because of need.... What have we done for the OL? We have signed Solder and resigned an average at best center......That leaves three spots open......hopefully, the draft can fill one or two of them........

You're forgetting a move. Do your homework.

In comment 13925464 giantstock said:

Quote:

1--- Someone mentioned Mauro. He is OUT for 4 weeks, isn't he? SO you want to just give up 4 weeks having a sub-par DE? And even Mauro is a sub par starter player, isn't he? And he's a backup player isn't he anyways?

He started 7 games for Arizona last year. Reason to suggest the same defensive coordinator is quite familiar and comfortable with the guy starting here. And sure, he's out. I'm not against adding to the defensive line. Just not a premium pick on a 3-4 DE, which, if you look at the teams who play a 3-4, are largely anonymous, blue-collar type role players. There's JJ Watt, name the next four.

In comment 13925571 Doomster said:

Quote:

there is no way they take a DT in the first or second round.....and only in the 3rd if he is the BPA, not because of need.... What have we done for the OL? We have signed Solder and resigned an average at best center......That leaves three spots open......hopefully, the draft can fill one or two of them........

But why not a DL in rd 3? Who is the starter that you can rely in for 16 games?

In comment 13925581 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 13925464 giantstock said: Quote: 1--- Someone mentioned Mauro. He is OUT for 4 weeks, isn't he? SO you want to just give up 4 weeks having a sub-par DE? And even Mauro is a sub par starter player, isn't he? And he's a backup player isn't he anyways? He started 7 games for Arizona last year. Reason to suggest the same defensive coordinator is quite familiar and comfortable with the guy starting here. And sure, he's out. I'm not against adding to the defensive line. Just not a premium pick on a 3-4 DE, which, if you look at the teams who play a 3-4, are largely anonymous, blue-collar type role players. There's JJ Watt, name the next four.

DG has said he wants to win games at the line of scrimmage. A 3rd round pick can ensure you win games ta the lien of scrimmage. As far as annonymity-- I'm not sure 3-13 teams have much notoriety. A 3rd rd pick on a bad team won't get a lot of it. He only gets fame if eh produces. What's the chance that teh 3rd rd pick is going to be an all-pro? If so-- name the all pro DT that will be selected rd 3.

My point is-- that rd 3 selection will help win the battle at the LOS and possibly be an annonymous player. Winning the LOS battle is the most thing. I think DG believes that. And I'm a believer of that.

With that said-- a DT is more valued than a lot of other positions.

Josh Mauro is on a 1-year contract and suspended 4 games, Wynn is a career back up. There is no one else who can fill this role.

Two guys I suspect the Giants are looking at: RJ McIntosh and Da'Shawn Hand.

In comment 13925605 AdamBrag said:

Quote:

Josh Mauro is on a 1-year contract and suspended 4 games, Wynn is a career back up. There is no one else who can fill this role. Two guys I suspect the Giants are looking at: RJ McIntosh and Da'Shawn Hand.

I don't have any idea if the Giants are considering him, but I think Foley Fatukasi would be interesting too.

Okwara, Wynn and Williams - all decent sized DE that can be used in a 3-4. They are not 300 lbers. There are also FA after the draft.

think the Giants will draft a developmental DT. Maybe Shepherd, or the DT from Ferris State.

Phillips

In comment 13925632 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 13925605 AdamBrag said: Quote: Josh Mauro is on a 1-year contract and suspended 4 games, Wynn is a career back up. There is no one else who can fill this role. Two guys I suspect the Giants are looking at: RJ McIntosh and Da'Shawn Hand. I don't have any idea if the Giants are considering him, but I think Foley Fatukasi would be interesting too.

I would love Fatukasi but imo he is a later rd pick. Not a starter yet.

In comment 13925674 section125 said:

Quote:

Okwara, Wynn and Williams - all decent sized DE that can be used in a 3-4. They are not 300 lbers. There are also FA after the draft.

Wynn and Williams are OL. And I don't expect them to make the 2nd rd.

Has only Vea, Hurst and Bryan as 1st round locks.

(Not too sure about those names as I'm not looking at players this year and probably would list different ones.) But:

Point is, Daron Payne and a bunch of other legit DTs, (including nose types that may project into other techniques perfectly well) while retaining nose power, will be available in rounds 2,3.

No need reach for a smaller '3/4 end type' simply to fit a percieved system that we don't even know yet IF it will be run that.exact.way. yet.

Especially in a trade down, with the hypothetical 33_34_35 scenario,if your consensus #2 NDT is there - you take.

As we've seen. Those simply don't grow on trees.

All that being said, amazing pass rush specialist DTS are valuable as well. But. As we've seen. You cannot wish them to be, they are rare, and if it's not a lock that they will be, draft them lower down as some present a risk vs run .

'Will be available in Rd two --' according to CBS. '