The prevailing sentiment on BBI has centered around Eli’s age and the terrible season of 2017 and there is an idea of those who want to go for another run with Eli that the blame falls on McAdoo and his terrible system and/or the terrible drafting of Reese. This has allowed the argument to center on the last 2 years. As if thats all we are talking about here. The real thing is that this has been going on longer.
But now its time. I begin with of course John Mara.
At the end of 2013 he said this: “I think our offense is broken right now. We need to fix that," Mara said in a comment that could be taken as a clear indication that offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride could be in jeopardy. "We can't go into next season with the same personnel."
"I still have every confidence in him," Mara said. "He's still the face of the franchise. We need to help him. We need to give him some better tools and do a better job around him next year."
Lets take a look at the roster when Mara said that in 2013:
Quarterbacks
& #9642; 10 Eli Manning
& #9642; 9 Ryan Nassib
& #9642; 17 Curtis Painter
Running backs
& #9642; 35 Andre Brown
& #9642; 39 John Conner FB
& #9642; 29 Michael Cox KR
& #9642; 44 Peyton Hillis
Wide receivers
& #9642; 80 Victor Cruz
& #9642; 12 Jerrel Jernigan
& #9642; 18 Louis Murphy
& #9642; 88 Hakeem Nicks
& #9642; 82 Rueben Randle PR
& #9642; 19 Julian Talley
Tight ends
& #9642; 84 Larry Donnell
& #9642; 83 Brandon Myers
& #9642; 86 Bear Pascoe FB
& #9642; 81 Adrien Robinson
Offensive linemen
& #9642; 65 Will Beatty T
& #9642; 77 Kevin Boothe C
& #9642; 73 James Brewer G
& #9642; 66 David Diehl G
& #9642; 79 Stephen Goodin G/T
& #9642; 62 Eric Herman G
& #9642; 67 Brandon Mosley G/T
& #9642; 72 Justin Pugh T
& #9642; 61 Dallas Reynolds
One of the things you will immediately note: every single one of those players is gone. Most long gone.
Here is the coaching staff:
Offensive coaches
& #9642; Offensive Coordinator – Kevin Gilbride
& #9642; Quarterbacks – Sean Ryan
& #9642; Running Backs – Jerald Ingram
& #9642; Wide Receivers – Kevin Gilbride, Jr.
& #9642; Tight Ends – Mike Pope
& #9642; Offensive Line – Pat Flaherty
& #9642; Assistant Offensive Line – Lunda Wells
& #9642; Offensive Assistant – Ryan Roeder
You will also note that every single one of those names is gone.
What’s the point? the offense is still broken.
What has happened in the meantime?
The New York Giants are 26-38 in the years since that statement. There is a 0-1 playoff record.
The Giants have fired 2 Head Coaches
The Giants have fired 3 Offensive Coordinators
The Giants have had 2 completely different offensive systems
The offense is still broken.
Did the Giants fulfill their promise of getting new personnel around Eli?
Here are the efforts the Giants have made since:
In terms of the draft. They have spent premium draft picks (1st and 2nd rds )
Odell Beckham WR
Weston Richburg C
Ereck Flowers OT
Sterling Shepherd WR
Evan Engram WR/TE
3 of the 4 subsequent first rounders were used offense and 2 of the 4 subsequent seconds on offense. That’s 6 of the 8 premium draft picks in the next 4 years spent on surrounding Eli. Who could ask for more asset allocation then that?
Please also remember that the 2013 1st rd picks was spent at OL in Pugh. Thats 4 of 5 1sts. That’s 3 OL picks and 2 receiving picks including a “generational talent”
And the offense is still broken.
There really is one common denominator is the “offense is broken”. The Giants have purged literally every one else. they have blamed the coaches. They have blamed the administration. They have blamed the players. They have blamed everyone but Eli Manning.
I am not saying that Eli Manning is to soley to blame. That really doesnt matter. What matters is they have tried literally everything and it hasnt worked. They have tried new coaches, new offensive systems. They have spent more then their fair share of premium assets on the offense. It hasn’t worked. The offense is still broken.
Alot of you blame Ben McAdoo. Which he deserves it. He was Ray Handley 2.0. But lets not forget that McAdoo was largely hired under the idea of not changing offenses on Eli.
They changed out 25 offensive players with 25 new offensive players and it still hasnt worked. At what point do we look at offensive player #26?
The reason to move on? Hiw do you answer what would solve the problem?
Another new HC? Another new offensive system? Another “generational talent”? More premium picks on offense?
If anyone was told at the end of 2013 that the Giants would get a "generational talent" at WR, spend 6 of 8 premium draft picks on Offense with 2 more OL to add to Pugh you would have never in a million years believed the offense would still be broken with a healthy Eli still at the helm.
The offensive rank in 2013? #26
The offensive rank in 2017? #31
It was actually worse after all of those changed.
Now maybe you chalk up 2017 to injuries & McAdoo. Fine
The offensive rank in 2016? 26th
The exact same that led to Maras broken offense comment
Thats on an 11-5 team with a "generational WR" with a top ranked defense that got turnovers and the ball back frequently and still the offense couldn't score
If you want to blame McAdoo & Reese for 2016-2017 thats fine but how do you explain the 2013 team under Tom Coughlin, Kevin Gilbride and 25 completely different players?
At some point you have to look at the one player whose hands touched the ball on every single snap of 65 games.
The reason to move on is simple. This makes it clear. Eli Manning is no longer capable of lifting those around him to make them better.
"If you think about all the quarterbacks that you've seen, who of them have made everybody better? That's what you're looking for. Does he make everybody around him better? That's what you're looking for. " - Gettleman
Alot of you have argued about the college record of these QBs. Well, look at the record of our QB since 2013.
I know alot will argue about his talent around him but can you really answer that he did that in tbe last 5 years when he has had 100% different offensive rosters?
If thats the case then he is no better at this point of his career then a multitude of QBs who could win when surrounded by great coaching, great offensive system, great drafting, great offensive line and generational talents at WR and RB and a great defense.
This is literally the argument right now.
I love Eli Manning and his career here. He has been the greatest Giant QB in history and is deserving of his place in Canton which I would argue to death for. It has pained me to write all of this.
But at this point it is time to move on. The Giants simply do not have enough time with Eli at 37 to get him acclimated to another new coaching staff, another new offensive system and acquire another 25 new offensive players without losing the defense before father time does what the organization is unwilling to.
-Giants fans
Let me remind you...No playoffs appearances in those years
It is important to remember that we are not arguing over whether Eli Manning should be cut or benched for a journeyman like Geno Smith or a nobody like Davis Webb. We are talking about whether Eli Manning has shown enough in recent years such that the Giants should forego taking a potential franchise quarterback with the second pick in the draft because Eli Manning is still on the roster. In other words, Eli Manning and another asset (most likely a running back) bring more likelihood of a Super Bowl championship than potentially 10-15 years of the quarterbacks that will be available at #2.
I think those are the parameters under which this argument should unfold. Everything else is irrelevant.
Rivers was 4-12 in 2015 and 5-11 in 2016
Brees has had 4 out of the last 6 seasons under 500
Brady is in a uniques position on a unique team
Its a team game and you have to look at the full team. Yes the QB is very important, but everyone loses if they do not have other good players around them.
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you should definitely be blamed.. no matter how bad things are Brady, Brees, Wilson, even Rivers don't end up being 3-13.. Can Eli still win? Who knows.. but I won't bet on it.. especially if we have the 2nd pick in a draft which has 3 franchise QBs..
Rivers was 4-12 in 2015 and 5-11 in 2016
Brees has had 4 out of the last 6 seasons under 500
Brady is in a uniques position on a unique team
Its a team game and you have to look at the full team. Yes the QB is very important, but everyone loses if they do not have other good players around them.
3-13 is worse than all of that also Eli has been out of the playoffs like 7 of the last 9 years or something.. one out of the last 6 we've been to the playoffs and basically he wasn't the reason we went to the playoffs in 2016.. he can no longer bring the giants to the playoffs himself..
New coaches, new systems, entirely different players, high draft picks, $100 mill defense and it hasnt worked.
It simply doesnt matter who is to blame.
It is time to move on.
New coaches, new systems, entirely different players, high draft picks, $100 mill defense and it hasnt worked.
It simply doesnt matter who is to blame.
It is time to move on.
This.. I am sorry JR and Ben ruined your good years Eli.. but its time to move on..
New coaches, new systems, entirely different players, high draft picks, $100 mill defense and it hasnt worked.
It simply doesnt matter who is to blame.
It is time to move on.
Then why are the new GM and coach saying the opposite?
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Is to say the Giants have simply tried anything and everything around Eli and it hasnt worked.
New coaches, new systems, entirely different players, high draft picks, $100 mill defense and it hasnt worked.
It simply doesnt matter who is to blame.
It is time to move on.
Then why are the new GM and coach saying the opposite?
If you have to ask that question then I doubt you understand what GM and and HC jobs are.. their job is to win and not to be honest with the media.. the only thing they can and should say is that they trust Eli for a few more years.. everything else puts the giants in a bad spot.. hence someone with even average smarts would say.. "My QB is fine and he still have a few years left".. unless you are the Maras or DG and had an honest meeting with PS, you have no idea what they really think...
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Is to say the Giants have simply tried anything and everything around Eli and it hasnt worked.
New coaches, new systems, entirely different players, high draft picks, $100 mill defense and it hasnt worked.
It simply doesnt matter who is to blame.
It is time to move on.
Then why are the new GM and coach saying the opposite?
So because the GM and coaches have made vague comments regarding Eli, we should all feel better? Perhaps they are either (a) making generic non-commital comments or (b) they are plain wrong. Perhaps we will all be sitting here in 5 years watching a team mired in medicority wondering why DG passes on a franchise qb for a 37 year old declining qb.
If they don't take a QB with 2nd pick because of continued faith in Eli, it will be a great mistake.
The best compliment in this thread was that Eli played well in 14-15.
But I dont want to discourage the ¨Eli does everything wrong crowd¨
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Is to say the Giants have simply tried anything and everything around Eli and it hasnt worked.
New coaches, new systems, entirely different players, high draft picks, $100 mill defense and it hasnt worked.
It simply doesnt matter who is to blame.
It is time to move on.
Then why are the new GM and coach saying the opposite?
Are they? Question- has Eli Manning been given an extension? I mean we are according to many about to go “win now” with him and his contract is severely hampering our flexibility.
Or are the Giants talking favorably for the next 2 years about a player they have under contract for 2 years?
people act like Eli needs to be traded or released already. Look around. Cleveland traded a 2nd rounder for Taylor. Jets dropped $20+ mil on Bridgewater/McCown for this year, Denver dropped $18+ mil for 2 years on Keenum, Ariz dropped $20 mil on Bradford. All of them are looking QB in this draft. All of them. They all want a vet QB anyway for 2018. The Giants signed Warner back in 04 despite drafting Eli and trading the house for him.
For Giants to trade (he has NTC) or release him they would have 1- given away draft strategy (this move needed to be decided in Jan) and 2- needed to sign veteran replacement to more money (10-20 mil) for more than they would have gained ($10 mil) thus limiting their ability to sign new guys like Solder.
They simply weren’t going into the season with new rookie QB (who very well could of have been Darnold/Allen - not pro ready from day 1) and Webb who has never played a snap. Every other team looking QB brought in a vet but Giants have to get rid of theirs?
The far more effective solution was to sign free agents this year and let Eli start 2018. He can be traded or released next year and you gain his 20+ mil on the cap to build for a new QB.
Are they really saying what you think?
“I believe standing here this morning that Eli is going to start the 2018 season as the Giants starting quarterback.” - Tisch
That’s about as lukewarm of an endorsement as you can get.
I have always admired the way the Packers handled it with Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers,” Giants co-owner John Mara
or are the GM and HC simply saying positive things about a guy they plan to start in 2018 and have under contract for that time.
who here said that Eli is a long term answer? Or that we shoudlnt look for his replacement in the near future?
Even his most adamant supporters believe we need to look for his replacement.
He's here at least one more year despite any and all arguments to the counter so gird your balls (love that saying!), nut up and lets root for the team to turn itself around from last years unmitigated disaster.
i will not waver,get on board to be on the right side of history.
2. Do you think any of the QBs in the draft are as good as Eli coming out of college?
I think the answer to the first is NO and the answer to the second is YES.
If so, then we shouldn't have any problem moving on from Eli. We didn't have a problem moving on from Warner.
If you think the answer to the 2nd question is NO, then it's better to wait a year and try to get a QB next year.
He threw 6 TD's and 4 INT's in 9 games.
He took a ton of sacks (39) and fumbled the ball away a ton.
He threw 6 TD's and 4 INT's in 9 games.
He took a ton of sacks (39) and fumbled the ball away a ton.
Nope. Kurt went on to play at a high level for 5 more years. Including a Super Bowl appearance. Kurt Warner circa 2004 > Eli Manning circa 2018.
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was in 2004.
He threw 6 TD's and 4 INT's in 9 games.
He took a ton of sacks (39) and fumbled the ball away a ton.
Nope. Kurt went on to play at a high level for 5 more years. Including a Super Bowl appearance. Kurt Warner circa 2004 > Eli Manning circa 2018.
5? He had a losing record those 5 years and his first two years were down right pathetic. His 2007 season was eerily similar toneli’s 2016. Now his last two years were very good but let not act like he dominated the entire time he was there.
That is not high level whatsoever.
Eli Manning Age 33-36 (2014-current)
Let's look at Warner's numbers at age 37 and 38:
And a Superbowl appearance. So, yeah....
What good are the so called "assets" like you say if they don't play because of injury or they are hurt. This year he played without his top 2 starting outside WRs, starting center, starting LG, starting RT, starting RB, etc for most of the year. Find me another QB that can do well minus all of that. You tout Flowers as some big reason Eli should be good because they gave him a high draft pick... But seriously if the guy sucks they it is worse than if they didn't draft him. So last year... LT sucked, LG hurt, Center hurt, RG barely average, and RT hurt. That was his OL. Starting pro bowl WR hurt, starting #2 WR hurt, very good slot WR, and a rookie TE who dropped a lot of passes. That is what he threw too.
If you don't think Eli would have been better last year with Soldier at LT, a healthy starting LG, a healthy OBJ, a healthy legit #2 WR, and a better RB I don't know what to tell you.
But low and behold, at the ripe old age of 37 and 38, the veteran QB bounces back and plays at a championship level a couple more times. A new coach came in in Wisenhunt, revised the scheme, and revives Warner's career for a final run.
It can be done. Look at Warners numbers pre and post Wisenhunt. Look at his age.
Sure, that's part of it, but not all of it.
I've actually somewhat warmed up to Barkley, but in the long run, I just don't see this as the best pick for the team going forward.
You either think a player's best days are ahead of him or behind him. And with Eli, they are most definitely behind him. You can't build your team for the next couple of years behind the idea of "Well, he still has some gas left in the tank." Or, "If you give him a great OLine and great weapons, the QB will be fine." I mean, that's just not how it goes and not how you can build a team. It'd be literally insane to go with that mindset in the future.
This is separate from what I posted above; but man, is it funny to see the same posters who defended those very same Reese picks of the past 5-6 years during those years, now all of a sudden change their tune.
Anyway, I like Barkley. But from the overall standpoint of the franchise moving forward, I see it as the second best move after a QB.
Eli Manning Age 33-36 (2014-current)
But low and behold, at the ripe old age of 37 and 38, the veteran QB bounces back and plays at a championship level a couple more times. A new coach came in in Wisenhunt, revised the scheme, and revives Warner's career for a final run.
It can be done. Look at Warners numbers pre and post Wisenhunt. Look at his age.
Maybe. I don't see it. And that's not my point.
My point is that we had no problem with Warner leaving at the age of 33, even though he is a HoF QB and had a SB appearance in front of him. But with Eli at 37 we can't let go. If there is a QB in this draft with the same potential that Eli had coming out, we should grab him. And I think there is at least one, probably more.
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Kurt Warner Age 33-36 (2004-2007)
Eli Manning Age 33-36 (2014-current)
Look at the comparative declines in AY/A, the most important stat that correlates to winning in the NFL for passers.
So you'd be fine with keeping Kurt Warner after the four years I posted because is AY/A was consistent. Forget everything else now, it's AY/A.
The goalpost is always moving.
This has been one of the worst arguments I've ever seen trying to pin this on Manning, and frankly, it's poorly constructed.
But none of them were saddled with a WCO that doesn't match their skillset, it's the anti-Eli system, horrid tripple whifting olinemen, square pegs drien Robinson, Beckum, Barden, and a coach with worse clothing and hair style tastes than Ray Handley.
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The Giants may or may not take a QB on Thursday. Either of which I'll be happy with.
Same, completely agree. I just don't know, my gut tells he is done after looking at everything carefully. I still could be very, very wrong. Truth is, I hope I am. Manning 3rd Super Bowl could be the crown jewel of my sports memories. Makes him the undisputed best QB in Giant history(already is), Makes him the best QB NY/NJ/Philadelphia football history. Makes him the greatest Manning. I am down with that. He might be QB dog meat, we have to prepare for that too.
With that, we agree. The end. Bring on Thursday.
No one would argue that all things being equal, you take a QB over a running back.
You need to look at the prospect. Evaluate the prospect.
I'm not a scout but everything I've consumed regarding this year's draft from people who are scouts says that Barkley is one of the finest prospects they've ever graded.
His game tape is off the charts. His combine was off the charts. His personality is clean. His injury record is clean. None of the QBs are better prospects than Barkley, they just play a more important position.
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Would BBI be blaming the QB's poor performance on everybody BUT the QB or would all the posters be telling us how much that QB sucked?
But none of them were saddled with a WCO that doesn't match their skillset, it's the anti-Eli system, horrid tripple whifting olinemen, square pegs drien Robinson, Beckum, Barden, and a coach with worse clothing and hair style tastes than Ray Handley.
Yes Eli was saddled with WCO but Giabts changed to that because of poor reaults of the offense in at the end in Gilbrides system
Greatest Manning? Over whom? Archie and Cooper? Danny?
If you mean Peyton, you need to check the behavioral health benefit of your health policy because you've crossed into the delusional zone...
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In comment 13928213 Britt in VA said:
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Kurt Warner Age 33-36 (2004-2007)
Eli Manning Age 33-36 (2014-current)
Look at the comparative declines in AY/A, the most important stat that correlates to winning in the NFL for passers.
So you'd be fine with keeping Kurt Warner after the four years I posted because is AY/A was consistent. Forget everything else now, it's AY/A.
The goalpost is always moving.
I was fine with letting Kurt go. I'm also fine with turning the page on Manning.
Awesome stuff.
There are lots of reasons this offense has sucked...lots. There is never going to be agreement as to the primary one. Your opinion is that Eli sucks, and that is certainly a view. But it isn't unanimously held and you are not going to move people off their own opinions with these types of skewed analyses.
You said “this offense”. There’s been multiple offenses. TC/Gilbride offense, TC/McAdoo offense and McAdoo offense. Two have been near worst in NFL terrible and one has been Ok. With totally different players. Eli has been the constant
And my opinion is not that Eli “sucks”. I am saying we have tried every variation and it has not worked for whatever reason. Time and situation have run out and he we need to move on.