The prevailing sentiment on BBI has centered around Eli’s age and the terrible season of 2017 and there is an idea of those who want to go for another run with Eli that the blame falls on McAdoo and his terrible system and/or the terrible drafting of Reese. This has allowed the argument to center on the last 2 years. As if thats all we are talking about here. The real thing is that this has been going on longer.
But now its time. I begin with of course John Mara.
At the end of 2013 he said this: “I think our offense is broken right now. We need to fix that," Mara said in a comment that could be taken as a clear indication that offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride could be in jeopardy. "We can't go into next season with the same personnel."
"I still have every confidence in him," Mara said. "He's still the face of the franchise. We need to help him. We need to give him some better tools and do a better job around him next year."
Lets take a look at the roster when Mara said that in 2013:
Quarterbacks
& #9642; 10 Eli Manning
& #9642; 9 Ryan Nassib
& #9642; 17 Curtis Painter
Running backs
& #9642; 35 Andre Brown
& #9642; 39 John Conner FB
& #9642; 29 Michael Cox KR
& #9642; 44 Peyton Hillis
Wide receivers
& #9642; 80 Victor Cruz
& #9642; 12 Jerrel Jernigan
& #9642; 18 Louis Murphy
& #9642; 88 Hakeem Nicks
& #9642; 82 Rueben Randle PR
& #9642; 19 Julian Talley
Tight ends
& #9642; 84 Larry Donnell
& #9642; 83 Brandon Myers
& #9642; 86 Bear Pascoe FB
& #9642; 81 Adrien Robinson
Offensive linemen
& #9642; 65 Will Beatty T
& #9642; 77 Kevin Boothe C
& #9642; 73 James Brewer G
& #9642; 66 David Diehl G
& #9642; 79 Stephen Goodin G/T
& #9642; 62 Eric Herman G
& #9642; 67 Brandon Mosley G/T
& #9642; 72 Justin Pugh T
& #9642; 61 Dallas Reynolds
One of the things you will immediately note: every single one of those players is gone. Most long gone.
Here is the coaching staff:
Offensive coaches
& #9642; Offensive Coordinator – Kevin Gilbride
& #9642; Quarterbacks – Sean Ryan
& #9642; Running Backs – Jerald Ingram
& #9642; Wide Receivers – Kevin Gilbride, Jr.
& #9642; Tight Ends – Mike Pope
& #9642; Offensive Line – Pat Flaherty
& #9642; Assistant Offensive Line – Lunda Wells
& #9642; Offensive Assistant – Ryan Roeder
You will also note that every single one of those names is gone.
What’s the point? the offense is still broken.
What has happened in the meantime?
The New York Giants are 26-38 in the years since that statement. There is a 0-1 playoff record.
The Giants have fired 2 Head Coaches
The Giants have fired 3 Offensive Coordinators
The Giants have had 2 completely different offensive systems
The offense is still broken.
Did the Giants fulfill their promise of getting new personnel around Eli?
Here are the efforts the Giants have made since:
In terms of the draft. They have spent premium draft picks (1st and 2nd rds )
Odell Beckham WR
Weston Richburg C
Ereck Flowers OT
Sterling Shepherd WR
Evan Engram WR/TE
3 of the 4 subsequent first rounders were used offense and 2 of the 4 subsequent seconds on offense. That’s 6 of the 8 premium draft picks in the next 4 years spent on surrounding Eli. Who could ask for more asset allocation then that?
Please also remember that the 2013 1st rd picks was spent at OL in Pugh. Thats 4 of 5 1sts. That’s 3 OL picks and 2 receiving picks including a “generational talent”
And the offense is still broken.
There really is one common denominator is the “offense is broken”. The Giants have purged literally every one else. they have blamed the coaches. They have blamed the administration. They have blamed the players. They have blamed everyone but Eli Manning.
I am not saying that Eli Manning is to soley to blame. That really doesnt matter. What matters is they have tried literally everything and it hasnt worked. They have tried new coaches, new offensive systems. They have spent more then their fair share of premium assets on the offense. It hasn’t worked. The offense is still broken.
Alot of you blame Ben McAdoo. Which he deserves it. He was Ray Handley 2.0. But lets not forget that McAdoo was largely hired under the idea of not changing offenses on Eli.
They changed out 25 offensive players with 25 new offensive players and it still hasnt worked. At what point do we look at offensive player #26?
The reason to move on? Hiw do you answer what would solve the problem?
Another new HC? Another new offensive system? Another “generational talent”? More premium picks on offense?
If anyone was told at the end of 2013 that the Giants would get a "generational talent" at WR, spend 6 of 8 premium draft picks on Offense with 2 more OL to add to Pugh you would have never in a million years believed the offense would still be broken with a healthy Eli still at the helm.
The offensive rank in 2013? #26
The offensive rank in 2017? #31
It was actually worse after all of those changed.
Now maybe you chalk up 2017 to injuries & McAdoo. Fine
The offensive rank in 2016? 26th
The exact same that led to Maras broken offense comment
Thats on an 11-5 team with a "generational WR" with a top ranked defense that got turnovers and the ball back frequently and still the offense couldn't score
If you want to blame McAdoo & Reese for 2016-2017 thats fine but how do you explain the 2013 team under Tom Coughlin, Kevin Gilbride and 25 completely different players?
At some point you have to look at the one player whose hands touched the ball on every single snap of 65 games.
The reason to move on is simple. This makes it clear. Eli Manning is no longer capable of lifting those around him to make them better.
"If you think about all the quarterbacks that you've seen, who of them have made everybody better? That's what you're looking for. Does he make everybody around him better? That's what you're looking for. " - Gettleman
Alot of you have argued about the college record of these QBs. Well, look at the record of our QB since 2013.
I know alot will argue about his talent around him but can you really answer that he did that in tbe last 5 years when he has had 100% different offensive rosters?
If thats the case then he is no better at this point of his career then a multitude of QBs who could win when surrounded by great coaching, great offensive system, great drafting, great offensive line and generational talents at WR and RB and a great defense.
This is literally the argument right now.
I love Eli Manning and his career here. He has been the greatest Giant QB in history and is deserving of his place in Canton which I would argue to death for. It has pained me to write all of this.
But at this point it is time to move on. The Giants simply do not have enough time with Eli at 37 to get him acclimated to another new coaching staff, another new offensive system and acquire another 25 new offensive players without losing the defense before father time does what the organization is unwilling to.
I don’t think anyone, not even NYG is foolish enough to approach this situation as if Eli is 28 years old.
Due diligence has obviously been done on all QBs who may or may not be available in the coming days. It’s very likely that the one they love is the most unlikely to be available at 2. It’s also pretty widely accepted that no matter how much anyone bangs the hammer for a QB, none of the QB prospects are as clean or as highly touted as Saquon Barkley.
Let’s see what happens.
Doesn't change the fact that the GM and the HC both said they believe Eli still has years left to play. Or that guys around the league have also said Eli is still capable of playing at a high level.
As was said..due diligence was done on the QB's and there isn't much to love there. You don't force need picks especially when you have a generational talent like Barkley on the board.
So get over it. Eli will be the QB for the foreseeable future most likely.
If not....the common denominator is a lousy OL
The only thing I will say about Eli is there were times when everything fell into place around him on a given play but he missed a throw that he needed to make. Still... even if he makes those throws this team still sucks. So, in summary the problem was not Eli. He just is not good enough to overcome the weaknesses in the offense.
The OP makes legitimate posts, I. e. , Eli hasn t elevated the play of those around him and has been part of the problem.
Why can't we be in favor of getting a quarterback without being Eli haters by some.
Wouldn't it be ideal to "make a run with Eli" knowing a Darnold a Rosen or Webb are ready to begin the new era.
The OP makes legitimate posts, I. e. , Eli hasn t elevated the play of those around him and has been part of the problem.
Why can't we be in favor of getting a quarterback without being Eli haters by some.
Wouldn't it be ideal to "make a run with Eli" knowing a Darnold a Rosen or Webb are ready to begin the new era.
Eli doesn't make players around him better? What are you basing that statement on? How many players that have played with Eli then left did better on their new team? I can name two (Visanthe Shiancoe & Martellus Bennett) and even they didn't turn into world beaters.
I am not saying we don't need Eli's replacement but people need to stop making shit up to push their agenda.
As with all of TwoStep's "Argument" threads, he cherry picks select quotes/stats to frame his argument to support his predetermined conclusion. Then will debate the points as unbiased and attempt to convince the audience to arrive at the same conclusion he has. For those that are in agreement, it is "great post", "excellent point", etc.
If not....the common denominator is a lousy OL
+1
The reality is that no one knows for absolute certain what Eli has left in the tank. Maybe he is totally finished. Maybe in the perfect situation, he can still be successful. But he is 37 and the Giants have a once in a decade drafting position. Using this draft pick based on optimistic projections of Eli Manning's seasons 15 through 17 seems horribly negligent and reckless to me.
Eli may be done, but Ben McAdoo DID NOT help Eli Manning whatsoever.
Man, the Gettysburg Address only had like 270 words...
Erik Flowers top 10 pick (we'll be lucky to get a bag of gummy worms in a trade for him, which we'd take, soon to be gone).
You're trying to sell these guys as assets?
Get that sh-t out of here.
McAdoo - Coughlin not so much.
McAdoo - Coughlin not so much.
Anybody with two eyes and a rudimentary understanding of the game should be on to that.
The 14 and 15 offenses were an improvement and had stretches of function. Manning looked good. Pinning the last 4 years on Manning is a little silly when he's had productive years.
Doesn't change that the last 2 years have been thoroughly bad offensively, both from the staff and QB, and doesn't change he's an aging QB on a bad team, with a new line and a new system, and that's it time to make a switch.
Well maybe not almost as if....
That being said, the difference in the offense from when he was the OC to the HC was massive.
We went from a vertical offense to a pretty predictable hybrid of the WC offense.
We went from being near the top of the league in plays 20+ yards downfield to one of the worst.
We went from a team that used varied personnel groupings to a team that primarily only used one.
We went from a team that utilized the TE seam route against the Cover 2 to a team that threw the fewest seam routes.
Man, the Gettysburg Address only had like 270 words...
I'll make it short for you, what's the Giants record been since 2012? You know, the all of these one more run for Eli years. Why was Eli "productive" in 2014 and 2015 but not in 2016 and 2017? Was it entirely on Mcadoo?
Did anyone seriously sit watching the Giants at 0-5 last year (i.e. healthy roster) and say, wow- the Giants are only a running back away from 5-0? How about at 2-13, did anyone fan utter those words?
What I've found odd about the posters that think we don't need to draft a QB at 2 and that Eli can actually bounce back next year is the "red flags" disparity.
These posters will go on at length about all the red flags that they see in the games of Darnold, Rosen, Allen and Mayfield that makes these QBs "unworthy" of being the second overall pick, but they are totally blind when it comes to the red flags in Eli's game.
In Eli's case they think it's always somebody else's fault.
If Eli plays poorly, it must be that shitty offense that Mac runs.
When Eli has happy feet and drops to the ground before the rush even gets there or fumbles again, it's all on that porous OL.
Eli throws an interception...WR must have run the wrong route or he didn't battle for the ball.
Offense has another 3 and out...What do you expect Eli to do with no running game?
I appreciate the fact that Eli was at the helm when the Giants won two Super Bowls, but he really hasn't played well for years and he's 37 yrs old.
I hope that Mara, DG and Shurmur are not "Eli blind" and they make the logical choice to draft his successor at 2.
You want to talk about setting your team back 5 years?
Our past two first round picks, top ten picks, are about to be off the team.
And to think that this organization would be committing to a 37 year old quarterback who has been playing poorly for years is really delusional. It's so obvious that the pick at #2 should be QB all day long.
And yes, like the OP, I love Eli too.
I am all for giving him an improved oline (maybe Saquan) and seeing where it leads. Eli is not a broken down, beaten up QB nursing major injuries. He may be a bit gun shy, but physically he is still fine.
I have been back and forth with Barkley or QB(Rosen) with the #2 pick. Frankly I'd prefer a slight tradedown, pick up a couple extra 2nd rounders, take one of Barkley, Chubb, Nelson (all blue chippers) and rake in the 2nd and 3rd round and go with Eli and Webb.
as·set
noun
a useful or valuable thing, person, or quality.
I could be wrong, but in football, I think staying on the field is a big part of the definition of an asset. But perhaps Richburg and Pugh were good at screaming "look out" from the sidelines when Flowers, Fluker and Hart were missing blocks on every play?
The owner was/is solidly behind our HoF QB. But, he did sign off on the Manning benching and directed the team to full press scout the top college QBs. Manning's efficiency has declined over the the last 6 years. He fails my subjective test as well, he just does not look the same, It doesn't feel the same watching him. This stands out when I watch his older highlights, I'm like, "He was SO fucking good."
I can't prove the Eli has it crew's subjective evidence is not true. It could be everyone's else's fault, it really can be. Not likely IMO, but possible. Proving something isn't true is not usually the way you debate something, that is a very high threshold.
I am willing to wait and see, part of me hopes we go Barkley/OL or trade down twice for a ton of early picks. It would be nice to know for sure, love the guy, I don't enjoy pointing out his flaws. I do come out every time because it feels like the Eli defense crew says we are stupid for our doubts, I'm not stupid. I am sure "they" come out because some of us try to make it sound stupid that Eli might have the juice for another run. We are the same.
Nothing left but to wait and see.
Quote:
How come other teams just signed them to 5 year 45 Million Dollar deals??? That sounds like a lot of assets to me. Both are good players, but have issues staying on the field, something hard to predict when drafting.
as·set
noun
a useful or valuable thing, person, or quality.
I could be wrong, but in football, I think staying on the field is a big part of the definition of an asset. But perhaps Richburg and Pugh were good at screaming "look out" from the sidelines when Flowers, Fluker and Hart were missing blocks on every play?
Yes and they were so bad that they both signed huge contracts in the off season.....
2014 and 2015 were good seasons by any measure for a QB.
Both seasons included 62+ completion %, 4000+ yards, 30 and 35 TDs to just 14 INTs, 90+ QBR.
The problem we heard for years with Eli was "stats, he's not a statistically good regular season QB"
Except for 2014 and 2015 apparently.
2016 was different. Some flaws, no doubt the breakdown of the OL started to creep into his psyche, year 1 of McAdoo. More of an ordinary statistical season but still engineered an 11-5 playoff campaign. Yes, we understand Odell Beckham did some freakish things, but someone still had to get him the ball. The 2016 playoff game is also a positive for Eli, not negative, which BTW was played only 15 short months ago.
I don't think Eli is finished as in "can't play anymore." At the same time, I don't believe he can take the Giants to the Superbowl either.
If the Giants feel like they have their franchise QB, then grab him and lets move forward with this bridge year.
Quote:
In comment 13927658 RollBlue said:
Quote:
How come other teams just signed them to 5 year 45 Million Dollar deals??? That sounds like a lot of assets to me. Both are good players, but have issues staying on the field, something hard to predict when drafting.
as·set
noun
a useful or valuable thing, person, or quality.
I could be wrong, but in football, I think staying on the field is a big part of the definition of an asset. But perhaps Richburg and Pugh were good at screaming "look out" from the sidelines when Flowers, Fluker and Hart were missing blocks on every play?
Yes and they were so bad that they both signed huge contracts in the off season.....
So that qualifies them as good players? What’s next brings the ninth overall pick automatically makes you a good tackle?
They are both average and were overpaid. Case closed.
There are lots of reasons this offense has sucked...lots. There is never going to be agreement as to the primary one. Your opinion is that Eli sucks, and that is certainly a view. But it isn't unanimously held and you are not going to move people off their own opinions with these types of skewed analyses.
But we've seen older QB's enjoy renaissance years in their later years, and I trust in the organization to do the right thing when it comes to Eli. I'm therefore willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and let's see how things progress under the new regime. If he has another sub-par year under a retooled line with some new talent, that's when I'll call for the noose.
So that qualifies them as good players? What’s next brings the ninth overall pick automatically makes you a good tackle?
They are both average and were overpaid. Case closed.
In your mind case closed. But much more highly qualified football people than you overpaid for those two(yes the markets are inflated). So maybe, just maybe the other teams think they are very good players. Pugh, without the injuries, certainly is a very good player at multiple positions. I'm not so convinced Richburg is, but obviously at least two teams think they are both worth paying for.
But whatever, case closed...
Why not pay for our own homegrown guys?
-Giants fans
Let me remind you...No playoffs appearances in those years
It is important to remember that we are not arguing over whether Eli Manning should be cut or benched for a journeyman like Geno Smith or a nobody like Davis Webb. We are talking about whether Eli Manning has shown enough in recent years such that the Giants should forego taking a potential franchise quarterback with the second pick in the draft because Eli Manning is still on the roster. In other words, Eli Manning and another asset (most likely a running back) bring more likelihood of a Super Bowl championship than potentially 10-15 years of the quarterbacks that will be available at #2.
I think those are the parameters under which this argument should unfold. Everything else is irrelevant.
Rivers was 4-12 in 2015 and 5-11 in 2016
Brees has had 4 out of the last 6 seasons under 500
Brady is in a uniques position on a unique team
Its a team game and you have to look at the full team. Yes the QB is very important, but everyone loses if they do not have other good players around them.
Quote:
you should definitely be blamed.. no matter how bad things are Brady, Brees, Wilson, even Rivers don't end up being 3-13.. Can Eli still win? Who knows.. but I won't bet on it.. especially if we have the 2nd pick in a draft which has 3 franchise QBs..
Rivers was 4-12 in 2015 and 5-11 in 2016
Brees has had 4 out of the last 6 seasons under 500
Brady is in a uniques position on a unique team
Its a team game and you have to look at the full team. Yes the QB is very important, but everyone loses if they do not have other good players around them.
3-13 is worse than all of that also Eli has been out of the playoffs like 7 of the last 9 years or something.. one out of the last 6 we've been to the playoffs and basically he wasn't the reason we went to the playoffs in 2016.. he can no longer bring the giants to the playoffs himself..
New coaches, new systems, entirely different players, high draft picks, $100 mill defense and it hasnt worked.
It simply doesnt matter who is to blame.
It is time to move on.