Ian Rapoport: Trade Talks centered around Flowers

And right on queue... see some of the recent posts on this thread.

Still not sure what I'm looking for?

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happens. 5 years with no hits in a row? FIRED. Somehow Reese was able to blame everybody else in the building and survive 2 more years until Mara had nobody else left to fire.

Flowers before the draft.....

We have no idea what we will get from the draft, and if you draft someone, that means nothing until you see them actually play.....

You try Flowers at RT/G, and if you have something better, then you dangle him out there.....

This OL is a shambles, with only two positions locked in thus far.....if Jerry is considered the third, good grief....

This is a contract year for Flowers, and he should realize that......he won't be back with the Giants, but he wants that future contract with someone else....to think otherwise, would be stupid in throwing away millions on a future contract....

When you look at how the whole line played last year, why was Solari given a pass? He made absolutely no attempt to change Flower's technique....he is supposedly, a big strong guy.....yet I never saw a play where he attacked anyone in pass protection....he was constantly backing up right at the snap....Ever watch JPP when he was neutralized? Hit right at the line and he had no momentum to do anything....never saw Flowers attempt that move.....never saw any attempt to change his technique.....not saying Solari is the reason for Flower's failure, but it sure looks like he was a part of it, along with the failure of the rest of the line.....to see those bozo's on the right side of the line not be able to handle a simple stunt week after week, I would have benched Solari....

In comment 13928379 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 13928324 Brown Recluse said: Quote: Had we the same resources that NFL teams do to these college prospects, you could use the benefit of hindsight as some reason why we shouldn't be so hard on poor Jerry. But all most of us have are the games we watch on TV, and whatever we're fed from the media with scouting reports and such. NFL teams go to these college games. They break down tape. They interview these players and take them to dinner and meet their coaches, BFF's, teammates, and their mommas. They do everything they can to analyze physical skills, maturity, intelligence, etc etc. It doesn't matter at all what we think about their draft decisions at the time they are made because we don't have the resources and knowledge to accurately grade them. Sure, everyone has an opinion - but they are more or less based off of second-hand information and the hope that everything will work out. The Giants are in the business of entertainment. And if that entertainment doesn't mean a certain standard, they have every right to be criticized and judged for their mistakes - as much as they deserve to be praised for their sucesses. The only thing fans care about are results. That is part of the job. You can have this take and also realize that nobody anywhere in the league is immune to draft mistakes. If Reese was the only guy to swing and miss at draft picks, by all means, have a field day. That isn't the case. Name a GM you consider excellent, and there is plenty of failure on his draft report card.

No one said anything about a GM having to be perfect or infallible to mistakes. Completely off topic.

In comment 13928468 Victor in CT said:

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happens. 5 years with no hits in a row? FIRED. Somehow Reese was able to blame everybody else in the building and survive 2 more years until Mara had nobody else left to fire.

Gilbride and Coughlin were the first two scapegoats, and then Reese finally got the ax. Reese always had a knack for picking WR’s and was pretty good at the defensive line aside from Marvin Austin. But man, he couldn’t draft an offensive lineman to save his ass. And it wasn’t for lack of effort. Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, that’s some serious draft capital. The decline of the offensive line destroyed Gilbride’s offense, that scheme relied heavily on being able to run and long developing pass plays. The Coughlin situation was just unfortunate, I felt like everyone knew it was Reese, yet he got a pass.

finally rid us of the dreaded Flaherty? And weren't those people right! Look at the shit job Flaherty did in JAX last year ;-).

In comment 13928093 the mike said:

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In comment 13928059 Eric from BBI said: Quote: Matt Lombardo þVerified account @MattLombardoNFL 12s13 seconds ago Shurmur: Ereck Flowers isn’t here. There’s not much to say. It’s voluntary, I’m of the feeling it’s very necessary. #Giants I had begun to believe that the Giants front office was requesting that Flowers stay away as it was likely that he would be traded. Shurmur would not be saying this if this was in fact the case... So it is indeed what we cynically suspected - it is Flowers being Flowers. We simply have to find a willing trade partner asap...

The trouble is that the Giants have had little success with picks after the 2nd round, and recently neither of them. Probably a 4th rounder at best.

In comment 13928495 Victor in CT said:

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finally rid us of the dreaded Flaherty? And weren't those people right! Look at the shit job Flaherty did in JAX last year ;-).

Thoguht Flaherty was pretty well respected on the board. He'd been an O-line coach for a while, he just had garbage to work with.

At this point, I don't see the benefit of moving Flowers for a 6th or 5th round pick. Those players are less likely to pan out than Flowers is to turn it around. Rather just give Flowers one final shot.

Flowers to Denver in exchange for Paxton Lynch and give us our conditional 7th back for the punter.

In comment 13928532 Sonic Youth said:

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In comment 13928495 Victor in CT said: Quote: finally rid us of the dreaded Flaherty? And weren't those people right! Look at the shit job Flaherty did in JAX last year ;-). Thoguht Flaherty was pretty well respected on the board. He'd been an O-line coach for a while, he just had garbage to work with. At this point, I don't see the benefit of moving Flowers for a 6th or 5th round pick. Those players are less likely to pan out than Flowers is to turn it around. Rather just give Flowers one final shot.

There were alot of people here who couldn't wait to dump Flaherty, and were singing when Solari got hired. They know who they are.

They won't get anything, and it's worth a shot to see if the new staff/scheme can straighen him out.

In comment 13928552 Victor in CT said:

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They won't get anything, and it's worth a shot to see if the new staff/scheme can straighen him out.

I agree from a perceived value perspective, but it seems like Flowers has checked out so he is quickly becoming a worthless asset. I would take anything for him at this point, I’m amazed they think they can trade him.

In comment 13928468 Victor in CT said:

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happens. 5 years with no hits in a row? FIRED. Somehow Reese was able to blame everybody else in the building and survive 2 more years until Mara had nobody else left to fire.

What 5-year period are you referring to with "no hits"?

In comment 13928544 Victor in CT said:

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In comment 13928532 Sonic Youth said: Quote: In comment 13928495 Victor in CT said: Quote: finally rid us of the dreaded Flaherty? And weren't those people right! Look at the shit job Flaherty did in JAX last year ;-). Thoguht Flaherty was pretty well respected on the board. He'd been an O-line coach for a while, he just had garbage to work with. At this point, I don't see the benefit of moving Flowers for a 6th or 5th round pick. Those players are less likely to pan out than Flowers is to turn it around. Rather just give Flowers one final shot. There were alot of people here who couldn't wait to dump Flaherty, and were singing when Solari got hired. They know who they are.

He had a track record of successfully putting out quality offensive lines just like Flaherty did. What's the point of casting the guy as a hack?

Didn't like the desperate reach picks in Flowers, Justin Puke, and Wilson. Eli Apple was just weird, and didn't see a need for man press corner Prince in Fewells Tamper 2.

Likeo OBJ (had no concern about his height in WCO) and JPP.

Please consult me on your next first round pick Mara.

OK I admit I wanted us to trade up to take Warmack or Fluke XD

with a new coaching staff.

I also want to see Flowers somewhere other than LT and see if that changes anything. I don't see how a 5th round pick is worth not finding out if our former #9 overall OL can contribute in some capacity to this new regime's plan.

In comment 13928241 T-Bone said:

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even those that felt it was as reach felt that it was a necessary one... as well as not much of one (see the notes I quoted above).

I understand, the thing about Flowers for me was that he was never going to be a LT. He just always looked awkward to me. I really was not happy with the choice. Just felt he was a round peg square hole choice.

In comment 13928430 eric2425ny said:

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In comment 13928387 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: We weren't exactly rolling out waves of young talent before then. Seriously? Barry Cofield (2006 round 4). Justin Tuck (2005 round 3). Brandon Jacobs (2005, round 4). Reggie Torbor (2004, round 4). Fibrillation Wilson (2004, round 5). David Diehl (2003, round 5). David Tyree (2003, round 6). It’s not about superstars, it’s that Accorsi was able to find key contributors in mid and late rounds. Reese rarely found anyone beyond round 2, which is why we are always an injury or two away from sucking every year because we have no depth. Look at the cash he laid out for special teams guys the last few years. Those should be mid and late round draft picks.

Ron Dayne? Will Allen? Tim Carter? William Joseph?

That's three blown first round picks and a blown second round pick in back to back to back years.


If you could somehow combine Reese's ability to draft in rounds 1 and 2 with accorsi's ability to draft after round 3, you'd have the GM of your dreams. Credit accorsi with being able to draft guys that stay in the league at the lower levels, but his record in rounds 1 and 2 is what?

There's plenty to get on Accorsi about, and it would be a mischaracterization to suggest the Giants had some talent pipeline that reese came along and ruined.

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In comment 13927557 Eric from BBI said:

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a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.

Ehh...we can and will recover. Kennard was a good or even very good draft pick and he left as a FA. Flowers could have kicked butt and then we'd have given him Solder's contract.

Don't get too melodramatic. Move on. Shit, some people want to move Beckham who is fantastic. Flowers didn't work out here but at least he won't struggle under a bigger and more costly second contract.

doesn't look all that much better. Granted, you can't change the fortunes of an awful OLine in one offseason, obviously. But for people who think this team is in prime condition to make a run; I don't know about that with this OLine alone.

In comment 13927564 dep026 said:

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In comment 13927557 Eric from BBI said: Quote: a disaster if they have to dump Flowers. Its really hard to fathom that Reese is a 2x SB GM.

Is it really? George Young drafted Cedric Jones, Derek Brown, Dave Brown, Wheatley and other failures. He won 2 bowls. Didn't Ozzie Newsom step down or is rumored to be stepping down while the Ravens have languished in mediocrity the last 3-4-5 years?



No one wants to hear it...but GMs need to get lucky. The best thing they can do is hire the brilliant HC and pray their players stay healthy. Reese's biggest problem here was McAdoo was a disaster and Eli didn't cover up the warts. Maybe Reese is a football idiot, but I prefer to think he was a good or even very good scout/GM that got a little unlucky and desperate towards the end.

If guys like Manninghmam, Smith, Burress, Boss, Phillips, Thomas, Nicks, Chad Jones, JPP, Prince, Wilson, Pugh, Richburg (yes Richburg) didn't spend more time in the trainers room after flashing good to great play in years 1-2-3 Reese would have had a better go at things here. Not to mention he was saddled with the shittiest HC hire in NYG history. And that was a Mara hire.

Everyone here, ask yourself how many GMs have impeccable long term records NOT named Belichick? How many?

He moves as quickly as a potted plant. Cut the fat piece of trash already.

In comment 13928704 Sy'56 said:

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Yep. Flowers has only been working his way down the ladder of success with the high point being his draft day.

I would like to give Eli Apple a new lease on life though and see how he performs (including attitude) this summer and early in season before making him the next dismissal...

In comment 13928742 djm said:

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In comment 13927564 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 13927557 Eric from BBI said: Quote: a disaster if they have to dump Flowers. Its really hard to fathom that Reese is a 2x SB GM. Is it really? George Young drafted Cedric Jones, Derek Brown, Dave Brown, Wheatley and other failures. He won 2 bowls. Didn't Ozzie Newsom step down or is rumored to be stepping down while the Ravens have languished in mediocrity the last 3-4-5 years? No one wants to hear it...but GMs need to get lucky. The best thing they can do is hire the brilliant HC and pray their players stay healthy. Reese's biggest problem here was McAdoo was a disaster and Eli didn't cover up the warts. Maybe Reese is a football idiot, but I prefer to think he was a good or even very good scout/GM that got a little unlucky and desperate towards the end. If guys like Manninghmam, Smith, Burress, Boss, Phillips, Thomas, Nicks, Chad Jones, JPP, Prince, Wilson, Pugh, Richburg (yes Richburg) didn't spend more time in the trainers room after flashing good to great play in years 1-2-3 Reese would have had a better go at things here. Not to mention he was saddled with the shittiest HC hire in NYG history. And that was a Mara hire. Everyone here, ask yourself how many GMs have impeccable long term records NOT named Belichick? How many?

unlucky for 7 years?

In comment 13928732 Dave in Hoboken said:

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doesn't look all that much better. Granted, you can't change the fortunes of an awful OLine in one offseason, obviously. But for people who think this team is in prime condition to make a run; I don't know about that with this OLine alone.

Call me crazy but I think the OL was setup to fail last year. Actually, i'd bet my life on that theory.

THE OL will be better in 2018. The offense will be better.

In comment 13928794 Victor in CT said:

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In comment 13928742 djm said: Quote: In comment 13927564 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 13927557 Eric from BBI said: Quote: a disaster if they have to dump Flowers. Its really hard to fathom that Reese is a 2x SB GM. Is it really? George Young drafted Cedric Jones, Derek Brown, Dave Brown, Wheatley and other failures. He won 2 bowls. Didn't Ozzie Newsom step down or is rumored to be stepping down while the Ravens have languished in mediocrity the last 3-4-5 years? No one wants to hear it...but GMs need to get lucky. The best thing they can do is hire the brilliant HC and pray their players stay healthy. Reese's biggest problem here was McAdoo was a disaster and Eli didn't cover up the warts. Maybe Reese is a football idiot, but I prefer to think he was a good or even very good scout/GM that got a little unlucky and desperate towards the end. If guys like Manninghmam, Smith, Burress, Boss, Phillips, Thomas, Nicks, Chad Jones, JPP, Prince, Wilson, Pugh, Richburg (yes Richburg) didn't spend more time in the trainers room after flashing good to great play in years 1-2-3 Reese would have had a better go at things here. Not to mention he was saddled with the shittiest HC hire in NYG history. And that was a Mara hire. Everyone here, ask yourself how many GMs have impeccable long term records NOT named Belichick? How many? unlucky for 7 years?

I can't take that seriously. Argue with someone else.

yields one good starter and one pretty good starter. Maybe 1-2 additional role playing backups.

Based on that:

2007 - excellent
2008 - very good
2009 - OK
2010- - good
2011 the trouble started. Prince is a decent player now but never panned out here. The rest of that draft sucked.
2012 --even worse
2013 - good
2014 - good or even great
2015 - shaky--really only Collins unless I am forgetting someone.
2016 ickk--but maybe Apple gets it going in year 3. He was good as a rookie.
You want to throw back the 2017 class? I don't.

Reese didn't hit on enough late round picks. When I say enough, I mean one every other year or so would have been more than acceptable. He didn't find the lunchpail type players nearly enough, and it showed on the OL.

HE still wasn't as bad as this thread would indicate.

2 Titles. Deal with it.

is as awful as he was in the 2nd half of it. He was terrible and deserved to be fired a couple of years earlier.

on where Flowers is and what he is doing instead of showing up for mini-camp?

I haven't heard any quotes from him - did he just disappear?

'17 looks good so far. And 2016 Apple has a chance to be a good player, Shephard a solid contributor, Adams a good 3rd TE, so this could go from good to VERY good if the other 3 can stay healthy and contribute.

'15 - Collins and nobody if Flowers doesn't turn around. A huge miss at 9 overall
'14 Beckham and nodody. Not good. OBJ's greatness makes it passable. the rest is shit. NOT GOOD, not even CLOSE to great
'13 best player Hankins not resinged. Pugh a reach who is extremely overrated here. how is this good?
'12 awful
'11 Prince meh and zippo. stinker
'10 JPP and Linval players, nil from the rest. 2 good players thouhg, so GOOD
'09 Nicks a great pick, Beatty meh, then nada
'08 good
'07 best of his tenure

I wonder if we might use Ereck Flowers as part of draft day trade.

For example, could we oackage Flowers and #34 to the Patriots for #32.

31 not 32 damn typo

In comment 13928917 Big_Pete said:

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I wonder if we might use Ereck Flowers as part of draft day trade. For example, could we oackage Flowers and #34 to the Patriots for #31.

Unlikely

In comment 13928829 bc4life said:

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on where Flowers is and what he is doing instead of showing up for mini-camp? I haven't heard any quotes from him - did he just disappear?

he has never been media friendly. I doubt he is giving interviews or posting updates on insta

In comment 13927809 giantfan2000 said:

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it is obvious that Flowers and his agent have probably heard that Giants were looking to trade him .. if I was in this situation - why would I show up to voluntary training with my soon to be former team..?

giving the next employer a good look/impression that attitude won't be a problem..maybe??

In comment 13928956 micky said:

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In comment 13927809 giantfan2000 said: Quote: it is obvious that Flowers and his agent have probably heard that Giants were looking to trade him .. if I was in this situation - why would I show up to voluntary training with my soon to be former team..? giving the next employer a good look/impression that attitude won't be a problem..maybe??

I believe his father is his agent. Looks like he is trying to force a trade , or maybe he is just getting dental work

Flowers would be a good back up. He hasn't lived up to anybody's expectations but would probably be better than most OL draftees 4th round or later, at least for this season. Regardless of what you think of him, he should get another shot for the Giants. A new regime/attitude & philosophy may be just what he needs to improve enough to make him worth it, even possibly long term. The kid does have some talent and he is only 23. A 1st rd. pick is too valuable give up on during his first contract.

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In comment 13929063 Anakim said:

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Out of the league.

In comment 13928829 bc4life said:

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on where Flowers is and what he is doing instead of showing up for mini-camp? I haven't heard any quotes from him - did he just disappear?

That's what I don't understand. When OBJ didn't show up at least it was reported that he was working out with a trainer. I haven't read anything about Flowers. You would think with new coaches and a new position, he would show up so that he can stay as a starter. To coin a relatively new phrase (used too much) it's a bad optic.

It can't be that easy to just accept that the first major move of this regime was to make Nate Solder the highest paid lineman in the league just to move him out of his position. This in addition to the beat writers (and fans) essentially making him the scapegoat for everything wrong with the offense the past few years. If I were him, I wouldn't be in a hurry to rush back to New Jersey either to deal with the negativity.

A player not being re-signed. Hankins was a terrific draft pick. Pugh is a very good and versatile guard. He gets hurt. Good luck predicting that.

Richburg was everyone’s darling after 2015. Then injuries took over. Again, that’s bad luck.

than anything we could get back for him in a trade.

In comment 13928495 Victor in CT said:

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finally rid us of the dreaded Flaherty? And weren't those people right! Look at the shit job Flaherty did in JAX last year ;-).

zinger for the win

play, or develop Olineman on this team since 2010 should be thrown under the bus...

In comment 13929114 eclipz928 said:

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It can't be that easy to just accept that the first major move of this regime was to make Nate Solder the highest paid lineman in the league just to move him out of his position. This in addition to the beat writers (and fans) essentially making him the scapegoat for everything wrong with the offense the past few years. If I were him, I wouldn't be in a hurry to rush back to New Jersey either to deal with the negativity.

True - except he is simply hurting himself. His next contract is completely dependent upon this year. He may not want to be an RT but where is his avenue to be an LT? I can't see anyone trading for him to be anything other than a backup with upside right now. He needs to nail down a starting job first.

He needs to get his butt into camp and compete for a position on the right side of OL. He is getting really bad advice.